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Dajesus
12-13-2002, 02:15 AM
I know this isn't about the Dolphins, but it should be here since the presentation is this Saturday.

I have to say I still don't understand why this isn't a land slide. Larry Johnson is the only canidate. I am a Hurricane fan, but I still don't think you can overlook what he has done this season. Only 9 other RBs in the history of College football have ran for 2000 yards. Only nine other people in the history of college football have gained more combined(rec+rush) yards than Johnson. How long has gollege football been around 110-120 years? That means 1 player every 1.2 decades has put up the numbers LJ has eclipsed this year. Add to that 23 tds, 350 yards receiving, and takeing a team that won 4 games last year to 9-3 and a top 15 ranking.

Sure Dorsey had a great career, but this a year award not a career achivement. This isn't the freaking grammys for christ sakes. His stats were very good, but they don't stick out like a soar thumb. I also don't see Florida A&M on Penn St's schedule.

Then you have the Miami arguement that takes alot away from both canidates from Miami. Not just having each other, but having their whole offensive football team. It must be nice to have 1 of the top 5 wrs in college football, 1 of the top 5 TEs in college football, 1 of the top 5 QBs in college football, 1 of the top 5 RBs in college football, and I think the best offensive line in college football for the 2nd straight year. This team is so good from top to bottom they have to take away from what any 1 player does there. If you want to give the Heisman to someone on the Hurricanes give it to Butch Davis.

MaGhee had a great year, but along with the above his stats don't compare to what Johnson did. 330 yards less 4 more TDs, and more talent on his bench than LJ has starting with him. The main thing is college football sees 1600 yards every years. Tehy see 2000 every 12.

Carson Palmer he had a great year, but it just donesn't measure up what has been done by QBs in the past. He also plays in the Pac-10. Who doesn't pass for 30 tds and 3000 yards in the pac-10? The true freshman from AZ st hit 3000 this year didn't he? It wasn't good enough for Harrington why would it be good enough for Palmer.

Brad Banks is the only guy that should be sitting in NYC with LJ. Great year. He took a nothing program, and made them 11-1. He toasted the oppostion with his feet and more so with his arm. Great leader, and the underdog element is huge. If it wasn't the season where a RB did something that has only been done 9 times I would hand you the heisman, but you lose.

I know he is going to lose, but it is sad. I was listening to ESPN radio today, and it seems that the Heisman has turned in to something similar to the presidental race. They were saying how Plamer would win the west, Banks and Johnson will cancel each other out because they will split the big 10 votes, and Willis shuld win because he should get the most 2nd to 3rd place votes. Please this is football, Penn St had the least talent around Larry, but he lead them back to respectability, while putting up stats that only can be compared to 9 other RBs in the history of the game. Can you say that about the others based on this season alone?

Dajesus
12-13-2002, 02:18 AM
Oh forgot 1 thing. LJ has averaged 8.3 yards per carry thats only the best ypc of any RB that has hit 2000.

aesthetic
12-13-2002, 03:17 AM
Maybe we should draft him and then trade Ricky for a few first round draft picks.....


I'm sooo kidding...

Cranx
12-13-2002, 03:59 AM
Carson Palmer he had a great year, but it just donesn't measure up what has been done by QBs in the past. He also plays in the Pac-10. Who doesn't pass for 30 tds and 3000 yards in the pac-10? The true freshman from AZ st hit 3000 this year didn't he? It wasn't good enough for Harrington why would it be good enough for Palmer.

I can't believe I just read that, Palmer hasn't measured up to QB's of the past??? You're right, he hasn't measured up, he's surpassed, and he's done so against the toughest schedule in NCAA Division I football! He had one let down game against Kansas, but otherwise, his numbers have been stellar, and anyone with eyes saw the kind of numbers he put up against the toughest defense in the country against Notre Dame.

Also that bit about "who doesn't pass for 30 TD's and 3000 yards in the Pac-10..." was simply an ill informed comment, with a lack of a viable argument behind it. If you tell me that there's another QB in the conference, or in the country for that matter, who's put up equal or better numbers against THE TOUGHEST SCHEDULE IN DIVISION ONE COLLEGE FOOTBALL I'd say you're dillusional.

As far as I'm concerned, Johnson should finish 6th in the Heisman voting behind Marshall's Byron Leftwich who's a better athelete and meant more to his team. Johnson put up huge numbers against cupcake teams and couldn't break 80 yards against the only three tough teams that Penn State played this year (all losses by the way.) 2000+ yards against that kind of competition can't be considered too amazing- good, but not amazing.

Johnson probably won't even be selected in the first round of the draft next year as he's considered lacking in several areas vital to a running back. I'd say there are at least 5 RB's who are taken ahead of him.

As for the other guys, Dorsey's only there because of all the pub that Miami gets, otherwise he's nowhere near the top of the heap, and McGahee is good but it remains to be seen how good he is without the top offensive line in the country. Brad Banks did exceptionally well in Iowa and will probably finish as the winner or the #2 vote getter.

Again, Larry Johnson barely deserves to be in this thing and is a comparable athelete only to Dorsey- the other three are head and shoulders above and should finish 1-2-3.

Dajesus
12-13-2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Expo88
I can't believe I just read that, Palmer hasn't measured up to QB's of the past??? You're right, he hasn't measured up, he's surpassed, and he's done so against the toughest schedule in NCAA Division I football! He had one let down game against Kansas, but otherwise, his numbers have been stellar, and anyone with eyes saw the kind of numbers he put up against the toughest defense in the country against Notre Dame.

Also that bit about "who doesn't pass for 30 TD's and 3000 yards in the Pac-10..." was simply an ill informed comment, with a lack of a viable argument behind it. If you tell me that there's another QB in the conference, or in the country for that matter, who's put up equal or better numbers against THE TOUGHEST SCHEDULE IN DIVISION ONE COLLEGE FOOTBALL I'd say you're dillusional.




Unfounded huh? Dillusional? Check this out.

1. Kliff Kingsbury, Texas Tech 447 669 4642 66.8 6.94 42 12 40 142.2
2. Timmy Chang, Hawaii 335 603 4350 55.6 7.21 25 22 17 122.5
3. Cody Pickett, Washington 340 558 4186 60.9 7.50 26 13 35 134.7
4. Byron Leftwich, Marshall 309 447 4019 69.1 8.99 26 9 11 159.8
5. Ryan Schneider, C Florida 265 430 3770 61.6 8.77 31 16 12 151.6
6. Carson Palmer, USC 288 458 3639 62.9 7.95 32 10 21 148.3
7. Andrew Walter, Arizona St 246 426 3584 57.7 8.41 26 14 31 142.0
8. Luke McCown, La Tech 296 505 3539 58.6 7.01 19 19 24 122.4
9. Zack Threadgill, Nevada 275 451 3418 61.0 7.58 26 17 15 136.1
10. Jason Johnson, Arizona 239 410 3327 58.3 8.11 16 13 46 133.0
11. Gino Guidugli, Cincy 239 438 3319 54.6 7.58 21 16 21 126.7
12. Casey Bramlet, Wyoming 277 464 3290 59.7 7.09 24 18 38 128.6
13. Jose Fuentes, Utah St 246 454 3268 54.2 7.20 20 15 30 122.6
14. Adam Hall, SDSU 272 452 3253 60.2 7.20 17 9 33 129.1
15. Scott Rislov, San Jose St 275 449 3251 61.2 7.24 22 14 26 132.0
16. Ben Roethlisberger, Miami (OH) 271 428 3238 63.3 7.57 21 11 30 137.9
17. Jason Gesser, Wash St 219 368 3169 59.5 8.61 27 11 21 150.1

If you notice 4 qbs in the pac-10 passed for 3000. Cody picket actully had 500 more passing yards than Palmer. The kid Walter from AZ st is a freshman I bleave. Only Johnson from AZ wasn't with in 6tds of Plamer. i really don't think 6 tds surpass anyting that has been done in college football. Look at Kingsburry he plays in the Big 12 and has 4000 passing yards and 40 tds.

Dajesus
12-13-2002, 04:57 AM
You made a good point about LJ struggleing in the big games, but not all true. In only one of those games he didn't have a good ypc, but in all of them he got the ball less than 20 times. His team got behind early in those games stopping the comitment to the run.

What does NFL prospect have to do with the heisman? It is best college football player. LJ plays in a major conference, and put up numbers that rival any RB that has ever played college football. Can you say the same about Palmer?

Dajesus
12-13-2002, 05:10 AM
upon further investigtion we find more out about your boy. He started the year with 3 ranked opponets. Combined in those 3 games he had 3 tds and 3 ints. He only surpassed 300 yards in the first of the 3 against Auburn, but also threw 2 pics that game to only 1 td. 200 yards against Coll in game 2, and only 1 td. Game 3 against K st had 180 yards 1 td 1 int. He didn't put up any good numbers against a ranked team besides Notre Dame who almost lost to Navy 2 weeks before. BC also tore up Notre Dame's pass D. He didn't start putting up good numbers until the meat of his schedule was over. Lets look at the games he had huge numbers in.

October 19 Washington W 41-21 5-2 (3-1 Pac-10)
October 26 at Oregon W 44-33 6-2 (4-1 Pac-10)
November 9 at Stanford W 49-17 7-2 (5-1 Pac-10)
November 16 Arizona State W 34-13 8-2 (6-1 Pac-10)
November 23 at UCLA W 52-21 9-2 (7-1 Pac-10)
November 30 No. 12 Notre Dame

Wow those teams really have some mean defenses. 23 of his 32 TDs came against these giants. 2300 of his 3600 yards came against these monsters. so that is 3/4 of his stats vrs the cup cake part of his schedule(ND not included even though their D struggled in their last 3 games.)

Please EXPO. I am not saying he didn't have a great year, but his numbers don't stick out against what other QB have done in the past. If you are going to say my coments were unfounded and dillusional you better have something to back it up.

Chubby
12-13-2002, 09:49 AM
UNFORTUNATELY LJ will win, the media gives dorsey to much bad hype to overcome. But thats just going to piss of this team a little more and everyone knows what happens when miami has a little more incentive to play better

Boomer
12-13-2002, 11:33 AM
As long as it ain't Dorsey. Totally undeserving this year. It's the best college player THIS YEAR and that is certainly not the ol' duck chucker from the Orange Bowl.

minus
12-13-2002, 12:19 PM
I don't know how can you say LJ won't be a first round pick....:confused:

Another thing that no one mention about LJ season is that he stayed in games that were blowouts to keep racking up yards to achieve 2,000 yards.I think Brad Banks deserve it more than any of the other players mention because:

Highest rated qb.
Iowa was suppost to be finish last in the Big 10 not #3 in the nation.
One of the most dyanamic players to watch this year.

BSQX4
12-13-2002, 12:26 PM
I'm not at all sure that Larry Johnson is better than Willis McGahee. Say all you want about the Canes line being exceptional, they are, but they were great when we had Edge at the U of M. Edge went on to be a great pro, maybe the best back in the game when healthy. Portis is another example. These guys are great runners, period , end of story. It is not the blockers up front that makes them great, it's simply the fact that they are GREAT. McGahee may be the best of them all, take it from a guy who's watched Uof M football for many years. His combination of power and speed make him the #1 game changer in the nation. He's not a senior so I don't see him getting it. Palmer is a West Coast guy so I don't see him getting it. I feel based on leadership, his undefeated record this year combined with some very good numbers should swing the vote to Ken Dorsey.

fin-atic
12-13-2002, 12:29 PM
Okay I disagree with ALL of you.

Dorsey should win and here is why:

1. What qualities do you grade for the BEST this year? You mean he has to throw for 5,000 yrds? If you had McGahee to hand the ball to would you throw it all over the place? Kenny spent much of the second half of each game handing off to sit on top of a lead and then sitting the 4th while backups got some work.

2. When sports fans are asked "who is the greatest QB of all time? They always respond "Montana". When you say "but his numbers are nowhere near the top". The answer is "Oh, but he won Super Bowls, and he found ways to win, and he was a great field general and he was a leader". Okay. Then why is all of that not the same criteria for Dorsey? Think about it.

3. He has beaten every UM passing record including two former Heisman winners. Their numbers were impressive enough to win.

4. When Eric Crouch, and Chris Wienke won. That makes the staement that it is a career achievment award. There is no way they were the best athletes playing.

5. The term best player is where I feel we get seperated. It is not limited to just physical ability which is often the stats. Its how well you play all aspects of your position. No one plays the position better than Dorsey.

And here are the reasons he won't win:

1. The Media is influenced by the North Eastern mega centers for the press, NY, Boston, etc, where they hate all that is Miami. They also are sick of Miami and feel the National Titles are enough. They are very biased against Maimi and have been on a campaign for them to lose, and to promote any candidate other than a UM player. At first it was Grossman, then it was Leftwich, then Brown out of Colorado, ANYONE but Miami. Now here late season they have thrown themselves on the LJ bandwagon and Carson Palmer bandwagon. Funny how the only preseason candidate is Dorsey and all he has done is win. But still will lose.

2. The remaining old guard of college football media hate Miami too. In a world that was dominated by the old sweep and the wishbone, Miami has toppled their favorites. Miami burst on to the scene with a pro style offense and those old school USC, Michigan, Ohio St. teams have been trying to catch up every since.

3. Most will say Dorsey is the product of a good team. Well he does have a good team. But at what point do you start acknowledging the quality of the team is because of good players. UM turned over much of their starting units on both sides. And they still win. Its not a coincidence that Dorsey is the constant. He has led this team to winning, they have not dragged him along.

So UM and Dorsey will ge the shaft. He will have to know he did all a QB should have to do to win this award. But he will settle for the consolation prize, the National Championship.

RobertHoover
12-13-2002, 12:43 PM
Pac-10 Passing Stats for Dejesus.

You had 5 with 3000+ and a 6th with 2994.


NAME CMP ATT YDS CMP% YDS/A TD INT SACK RAT
1. Cody Pickett, Washington 340 558 4186 60.9 7.50 26 13 35 134.7
2. Carson Palmer, USC 288 458 3639 62.9 7.95 32 10 21 148.3
3. Andrew Walter, Arizona St 246 426 3584 57.7 8.41 26 14 31 142.0
4. Jason Johnson, Arizona 239 410 3327 58.3 8.11 16 13 46 133.0
5. Jason Gesser, Wash St 219 368 3169 59.5 8.61 27 11 21 150.1
6. Derek Anderson, Oregon St 190 404 2994 47.0 7.41 24 12 22 122.9
7. Kyle Boller, California 225 421 2815 53.4 6.69 28 10 24 126.8
8. Jason Fife, Oregon 189 357 2748 52.9 7.70 24 10 25 134.2
9. Cory Paus, UCLA 109 184 1647 59.2 8.95 10 6 17 145.8
10. Kyle Matter, Stanford 116 214 1219 54.2 5.70 8 10 28 105.0

fin-atic
12-13-2002, 01:43 PM
Did I ask for these? Why are you showing me these?

I hope not to make a point. Because my points where that the guy with the most stats isn't alwasy the best and hasn't always won. So those number mean nothing to me. What matters to me is this 37-1 as a starter. The most important stat of all, winning.

I am amazed that everyone thinks Miami is such a good team but none of the media saw fit to reward one player last night, Weird huh? So someone tell me again there is no biased against Miami!

RobertHoover
12-13-2002, 01:47 PM
Those were for Dejesus there kid. He was trying to prove another point and these numbers will help.

This season the trophy is so up in the air I really don't care who wins. The one issue I have with Dorsey is he isn't even the best player on his team, that makes it hard for me to think he's the best in the country.

Dajesus
12-13-2002, 02:36 PM
thanks for the help. I did aleady post the just about the same ting though.

RobertHoover
12-13-2002, 02:38 PM
I saw your list, I pulled just The Pac-10 and as you said, yards are not hard to come by out west.

Cranx
12-13-2002, 02:59 PM
First off, the dillusional comment was perhaps a bit strong, sorry about that DJ, but otherwise, you're all completely underestimating, and downplaying the significance of Palmer's season. Yes, there are some prolific passers in the Pac-10, as there are in virtually every every conference except the Big 10 which seems to think the option is still en vouge. The numbers themselves are impressive but do not make Palmer the exceptional candidate that he is, it's who he played those games against that makes the numbers impressive!

DJ, you posted that Palmer garnered most of his yards against the "cupcake" portion of USC's schedule, my question to you would be, when was that? Every single one of the teams you mentioned in that "cupcake" portion, were or are ranked teams with the exception of Arizona and Stanford. Oregon, UCLA, Washington, and UCLA are all tough teams. That doesn't include the non-conference games that were all against tough opponents.

Again, in case you didn't catch this the first time:
USC HAD THE #1 TOUGHEST SCHEDULE OF ANY DIVISION IA SCHOOL IN THE ENTIRE NATION.
Miami's schedule doesn't even come close as they had the 48th toughest schedule in the nation (I don't have the stats on the other teams.)

In other words, Palmers numbers becom exponentially more impressive when you compare them to what he had to face in order to achieve them. Larry Johnson on the other hand simply did not have a schedule that was anywhere near as tough and Penn State's three losses came against the only three ranked teams on their schedule- this kind of stat does not a Heisman winner make.

fin-atic
12-13-2002, 03:29 PM
Ask the Miami players who is the best player on the team, and who should win. They say Dorsey. I think they know better then all of us who is the best player on their team.

Angneli
12-13-2002, 06:56 PM
The Heisman is for the best PLAYER in the coutry THIS YEAR. How can you give it to Dorsy who is not even the best player on his team. Dorsey is a product of the people around him.

As far as the other 4, you can make a case for any of them, but the politics of it point to Palmer.

Dajesus
12-13-2002, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Expo88
First off, the dillusional comment was perhaps a bit strong, sorry about that DJ, but otherwise, you're all completely underestimating, and downplaying the significance of Palmer's season. Yes, there are some prolific passers in the Pac-10, as there are in virtually every every conference except the Big 10 which seems to think the option is still en vouge. The numbers themselves are impressive but do not make Palmer the exceptional candidate that he is, it's who he played those games against that makes the numbers impressive!

DJ, you posted that Palmer garnered most of his yards against the "cupcake" portion of USC's schedule, my question to you would be, when was that? Every single one of the teams you mentioned in that "cupcake" portion, were or are ranked teams with the exception of Arizona and Stanford. Oregon, UCLA, Washington, and UCLA are all tough teams. That doesn't include the non-conference games that were all against tough opponents.

Again, in case you didn't catch this the first time:
USC HAD THE #1 TOUGHEST SCHEDULE OF ANY DIVISION IA SCHOOL IN THE ENTIRE NATION.
Miami's schedule doesn't even come close as they had the 48th toughest schedule in the nation (I don't have the stats on the other teams.)

In other words, Palmers numbers becom exponentially more impressive when you compare them to what he had to face in order to achieve them. Larry Johnson on the other hand simply did not have a schedule that was anywhere near as tough and Penn State's three losses came against the only three ranked teams on their schedule- this kind of stat does not a Heisman winner make.

The fact still remains he struggled against every ranked team he played besides Notre Dame who were not plyaing good football when he played them. The Pac-10 is not a defenseive confernece. If you can find one other major conference that had 5 QBs pass for 3000 yards I will retract last statement. his stats don't stick out against the other QBs in his conference more less all QBs of all time. Kliff Kingburry played a very tough schedule and threw for 1000 more yards and 6 more tds than Palmer, so wouldn't he be a better Heisman canadate?

The cupcake comment was more about the defenses on the lower half teams in the pac 10. UCLA, Washington, Stanford, Arizona, and most of all Oregon have horrible defenses, and those are the games he racked up the stats. He was average at best when he played Colorado, K St, Auburn, and Cal.

I still say he had a great year, but LJ season stands up against the best all time at RB. No matter how hard his schedule was you can't say that about Palmer. You can't even say he had the best year of any QB.

Dajesus
12-14-2002, 02:50 AM
I have to say 1 more thing EXPO. Yes Palemr played a tough schedule and put up good numbers over the year 3600 yards 32 tds. There was another QB who played another very very tough schedule and put up much better numbers. Kliff Kingsburry played Col, Iwoa St, Texas, Oaklahoma, oh yeah and the #2 team in the nation who possibly has the best defense in the nation Ohio St. In the Ohio St game he passed for 300 yards and 4 tds. Overall he passed for 4600 yards 1000 more than Plamer, and 42 tds 10 more than Palmer. So again how do Palmer's stats "surpass" all other Qb's stats?

Jaydog57
12-14-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Angneli
Dorsey is a product of the people around him.
Every player up for the Heisman is a product of the people around him. The running backs are in it 'cause they have good blockers and the QB's are in it 'cause they have decent lineman who give them time to decide where to throw the ball or run with it or whatever. You can't single out one guy and say he's only in the running because he's on a good team. Ken Dorsey was turning heads when he was still a freshman backup to Kenny Kelly. He started his sophomore year and has had an amazing college career. I love how EVERYBODY deserves the Heisman but Dorsey.:rolleyes:

fin-atic
12-14-2002, 12:18 PM
Can people not read??
Read my entire initial post again and it states, undeniably, why it should be Dorsey. He is the best player at his position in the country. There is more to playing QB than stats i.e.' Joe Montana.

Like winning

Geez.

Cranx
12-14-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by fin-atic
Can people not read??
Read my entire initial post again and it states, undeniably, why it should be Dorsey. He is the best player at his position in the country. There is more to playing QB than stats i.e.' Joe Montana.

Like winning

Geez.

But he's clearly not the best at his position, much less the best player in the country, and therefore should not win the Heisman (unless of course Lee Corso gets his way.) He's only the third best QB in the Heisman voting, and that's only because there aren't guys like Jason Gesser, Byron Leftwich, & Dave Ragone up there with him, otherwise he'd fall somewhere down the ladder.

How you can say that "he is the best player at his position in the country" is absurd when there is literally a slew of QB's who're better. Even the award presenters up to this point have recognized that as both Palmer and Banks have received awards, and Dorsey's been blanked.

I know I'm fighting a losing battle here with a bunch of guys who're from Florida and homering for their guy- in a way, I'm doing the same thing. The difference is, I've actually watched Dorsey play on several occasions whereas none of you that are making the argument against Palmer can say the same since USC games are usually on too late for the East Coast fan, or they're simply not shown at all.

Dorsey doesn't deserve this award and, were it not for the fact that he's surrounded by an incredible team chock full of NFL talent, he wouldn't even be at the presentation tonight.

Dajesus
12-14-2002, 03:18 PM
Fin-atic if this were a lifetime award Dorsey would take it, but it is only for 2002. Honestly I am Canes fan, and he wouldn't even be on my ballot.

We will find out in a few hours, and this thread will get new life. If I had a vote here is my ballot.

Larry Johnson
Brad Banks
Kliff Kingsburry
Carson Palmer
Willis McGahee

Cranx
12-14-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Dajesus
Fin-atic if this were a lifetime award Dorsey would take it, but it is only for 2002. Honestly I am Canes fan, and he wouldn't even be on my ballot.

We will find out in a few hours, and this thread will get new life. If I had a vote here is my ballot.

Larry Johnson
Brad Banks
Kliff Kingsburry
Carson Palmer
Willis McGahee

Well I'd obviously vote differently but I suppose we're going to find out in just a couple of hours anyway so then we can argue about who should've gotten the Heisman and why the guy who got it did/didn't deserve it. :D

fin-atic
12-14-2002, 10:54 PM
Just for the record:

Everyone says that Dorsey is a product of the great team around him. He just lost the Heisman so I hope you all are happy.

What I can't figure out if the "team" is so great, and its not Kenny, then how come NO ONE on Miami received awards, excuse me Romberg got the obscure award for best center. Gee at 38-1 and if the "team" is so strong they, or someone would be raking it in. No Outland, No Butkus, No Doak Walker, No Walter Camp, nothing. Nothing for the most dominant team in the history of college ball. And to top it off the two UM players finished at the bottom of the HEisman vote!! If this doesn't stink of prejudice, I don't know what does. It sBullsh*t.

Its a sham. Its a crock. Its a media darling game. The media went through it all year, Grossman, then Leftwich, then Seneca Wallace, then Larry Johnson or Carson Palmer. ANYONE but a UM player.

They and all of you can kiss Kenny's narrow, narrow behind. He is the man and he knows it, his team knows it, and deep in the hearts of many they know it. Kenny got screwed.

F ___the Hiesman.:fire:

Dajesus
12-15-2002, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by fin-atic
Just for the record:

Everyone says that Dorsey is a product of the great team around him. He just lost the Heisman so I hope you all are happy.

What I can't figure out if the "team" is so great, and its not Kenny, then how come NO ONE on Miami received awards, excuse me Romberg got the obscure award for best center. Gee at 38-1 and if the "team" is so strong they, or someone would be raking it in. No Outland, No Butkus, No Doak Walker, No Walter Camp, nothing. Nothing for the most dominant team in the history of college ball. And to top it off the two UM players finished at the bottom of the HEisman vote!! If this doesn't stink of prejudice, I don't know what does. It sBullsh*t.

Its a sham. Its a crock. Its a media darling game. The media went through it all year, Grossman, then Leftwich, then Seneca Wallace, then Larry Johnson or Carson Palmer. ANYONE but a UM player.

They and all of you can kiss Kenny's narrow, narrow behind. He is the man and he knows it, his team knows it, and deep in the hearts of many they know it. Kenny got screwed.

F ___the Hiesman.:fire:

His players did rake it in, there were 12 UM players drafted last year. There will be another 6-12 players taken this year.

Honestly instead of ranting and raveing make a case for Dorsey. His record is very nice, but so is his team. Beyond that his stats don't pop out at you, and when it came down to the big game of the season McGahee carried this team on his back, not Dorsey.

Dajesus
12-15-2002, 01:42 AM
Congrats EXPO. I still don't think he deserved it, but I got out voted. This is bad for you though. Now he won't amount to anything in the NFL. Not only will he have to overcome the Heisman jinx, but it is quite possible he will have to overcome the Bengals' jinx.

Cranx
12-15-2002, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by Dajesus
Congrats EXPO. I still don't think he deserved it, but I got out voted. This is bad for you though. Now he won't amount to anything in the NFL. Not only will he have to overcome the Heisman jinx, but it is quite possible he will have to overcome the Bengals' jinx.

Haaa! :lol: That's actually the first thing I thought of after I got over the shock of him actually winning. The funny thing here is that my wife actually asked me right before they announced the winners who I thought was going to win and I told her that I thought it should be Palmer, but because most of the powers that be were against him, I guessed it would either be L.J. or Banks. When they announced his name I jumped up like Ricky had just scored the game winning TD in the Super Bowl! I'm pretty excited, but I did feel kinda bad for Banks and L.J. as either one of them could have one this award and would have been deserving.

I'm hoping that all the rumors of the Bengals wanting out of the top spot in the draft are true because there's not a single one of the QB's who are likely to be taken in the top 10 that I would wish the Bungles on- especially Palmer, Banks, or Leftwich. Oh well, I'll just have to hope for the best.

Fin-atic bro, you need to chill with the bitter grapes about Dorsey, most unbiased observers will tell you he really didn't deserve this award. He's on a great team that will probably win the national championship going away, but he clearly was not the best athelete in the country. The only thing that he had going for him was the win/loss column, but otherwise, he just wasn't all that impressive.

I also can't believe that you're trying to play the "biased media" card when no West Coast player has won the Heisman in 21 years! It's not due to the fact that there haven't been candidates who were clearly better than the eventual winner (Harrington was clearly a better QB than Crouch, but Crouch got it anyway.) As for the Canes, they are media darlings. They're all that's talked about on ESPN, and they even get major run in the papers over here on the West Coast, so to say that the media is biased against Miami is simply ludicrous.

Let it go, hope McGahee comes back for his junior year and is as impressive next year as he was this year, and I'm sure he'll win the award going away. Otherwise, there's no reason to continue trumping Dorsey, this wasn't his award to win.

fin-atic
12-15-2002, 01:06 PM
Once again, How can Dorsey be a product of his "team" and his team mates not win several major awards, Actually only two made it on the AP all pro team. AP hmmm, thats the media. Now tell me again how there is no prejudice from the media against Miami??

Once again,(honestly do you gusy read?) Dorsey didn't have to throw it all over. The Canes were balanced and dominant. Why would he keep throwing it when they are up by 3 scores? Why would Miami make Dorsey throw it all over the place when they have McGahee? They are balanced!!! He didn't have to people!!

Just like Joe Montana.

It stinks, and it is an ebarrassment to college football. Yet everyone was okay handing the award to Weinke and to Crouch?? C'mon!!!! Same writers, same voters, be consistent.

Once again F_____ the Heisman. Its a joke and a sham.

Cranx
12-15-2002, 05:35 PM
You're just bitter bro, let it go.

fin-atic
12-16-2002, 01:15 PM
Damn right I'm bitter. It sucks to be jobbed.

MiaMarino
12-17-2002, 02:49 PM
The Heismann is a total farce. They need to make up thier minds if its a career achievement award or for nly that season. If it's not a career achievement award, why did a scrub like Eric Crouch win it last year? If it's for this season, it should have gone to McGahee or Dorsey. Carson Palmer? All he did was beat an average Notre Dame team whose claim to fame? The Gator Bowl. Everyone wants to shoot holes in Dorsey's game but the bottom line is he is 38-1 and has a chance to finish with back to back championships. With the game on the line, there isn't a better college QB out there.

What blows me away is that Willis and Ken were dead last in the voting?!?!? Puhlease! And Larry Johnson? Where was he in the big games? Yes, he got 2000 yds but in the 4 games that he had the biggest yardage, he was going against horrendeous run defenses. McGahee on the other hand is a complete back (run/catch/block) and has done it vs stiffer competition.

While I'm at it, how come the Canes didn't get any offensive awards with players like Dorsey, McGahee, Winslow, and Johnson? What a hose job! And Larry Coker gets no consideration for Coach of the Year after going unbeaten for 2 straight years, a nat championship, and the chance to get another? Again, the anti-Cane bias is there in full effect!

Having said that, the Canes are going to use this as another source of motivation come Fiesta Bowl time as the Buckeyes will be facing a very angry Canes team.

Angneli
12-18-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by fin-atic
Nothing for the most dominant team in the history of college ball.

F ___the Hiesman.:fire:


They still have another 13 games to go before this statement would be true.

Angneli
12-18-2002, 07:29 PM
As far as individual awards. I will say this.

Dorsey: Not the best didn't get an award....fair

McGahee: In my opinion by far the best running back this season.
should have gotten all the awards for RB....unfair

Winslow: Will get his chance best TE this season.

Johnson: Didn't have the numbers. Mainly because Miami spread the ball to all of their other players. Not a knock against Johnson I think he really good.

SMadison29
12-19-2002, 03:24 AM
I can't believe I didn't come around for the Heisman argument.

First off I must say that I was right all along & picked Carson Palmer as the Heisman winner at the beginning of the year & said he was the best QB in the nation(if you don't believe me just go to the espn board & ask). My prediction for next year's Heisman is Maurice Clarett.

Secondly Larry Johnson didn't even deserve to come in third place in the Heisman voting. How can a guy who racked up 2000 against a bunch of scrub teams even be considered. He played only 3 teams with a top 50 defense; Ohio St, Iowa, Michigan, & what did he do vs them. Very damn little, didn't even accumulate 300 yards rushing total in the 3 games combined. He didn't step his game up in the big games & his team subsequently lost. That's why he didn't win, thank goodness.

Dajesus
12-20-2002, 02:59 AM
Well this convo is dead way to be johny on the spot. Anywho I just hope the Bengals take Palmer and he fails misrably and you and Expo can suck on it. This wasn't meant to be a personal attack I just hate Palmer and USC, and the fact that he had the fortune of playing in the PAC 10. Every defense in the whole conference is a joke, well maybe USC has a D, but he didn't play them.

SMadison29
12-20-2002, 03:12 PM
Yeah I was just a little late, but I hate to disappoint you, but the Bengals have already stated that they are not taking a QB with the first pick & want to trade down so that they can take either Jimmy Kennedy or William Joseph, thank goodness.


Carson Palmer is the only reason that I have liked USC the past three years. I used to hate them when Keyshawn was there, & I'll probably go back to hating them once Palmer leaves. One player on USC to keep an eye on is true-freshman WR Mike Williams. He was probably the best WR(or 2nd to McDonald) in the Pac-10. Can only get better.

Dajesus
12-20-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by SMadison29
Yeah I was just a little late, but I hate to disappoint you, but the Bengals have already stated that they are not taking a QB with the first pick & want to trade down so that they can take either Jimmy Kennedy or William Joseph, thank goodness.


Carson Palmer is the only reason that I have liked USC the past three years. I used to hate them when Keyshawn was there, & I'll probably go back to hating them once Palmer leaves. One player on USC to keep an eye on is true-freshman WR Mike Williams. He was probably the best WR(or 2nd to McDonald) in the Pac-10. Can only get better.

I think you are talking more about speculation from the Bengals camp rather than facts. No team would be that moronic to say who they wanted in the draft befor the season was over. It would take away all of their barganing power.

I think Keyshawn is the reason I hate USC so much. He is also 1 half of the reason I hate the Bucs. Of course Sapp is the other reason.

iceblizzard69
12-20-2002, 04:26 PM
I think the Bengals will take Kennedy from PSU. This may surprise some of you, but Jon Kitna is actually doing a good job. His QB rating is around 85 and Chad Johnson only needs a few more yards to hit 1000. The Bengals defense is pathetic, they gave up 52 points to Carolina, a terrible offense, and you can run and pass all over them. They will definetly take a defensive player in the first round, and it will probably be a DT.

SMadison29
12-21-2002, 01:08 AM
This was posted 5 days ago(12/16)

Bengals | Looking Ahead - posted at KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)
8:54 PT: Len Pasquarelli reports for ESPN.com talk around the league is there is no way the Cincinnati Bengals, if they have the top overall choice in the draft, will invest big money in one of the top quarterback prospects. Owner Mike Brown would reportedly rather trade down and use the later pick in the round on a defensive tackle.

Dajesus
12-21-2002, 03:17 AM
That is speculation. Len doesn't work for the Bengals. Mike Brown asked the league for help finding him a GM to run personal and football descions earlier this week, so what he sais now won't matter if he brings someone in. Side note the last time an owner went to the NFL offices and asked for help finding a GM was in the '60s when the NY Giants did it.

That being said I hope the Bengals don't draft a QB honestly becuase it would be horrible to waste another young talented QB. The NFL can't afford it. My bet would be that Len is right, and Cincy will trade down and take a CB or DT, but you never know with the Bungles. A big thing to think about is the fans are starting to give up on this team, but a Heisman QB could put people in the seats.

Cranx
12-21-2002, 05:14 AM
From what I've heard from Chris Mortenson, Mike Brown isn't willing to give up running the Bungles like a "Ma and Pa" grocerie store just yet. It's pretty pathetic that guys like Brown, Bill Bidwell (Arizona, Cardinals), and Donald Sterling (Clippers) are allowed to own and ruin sports franchises. I wish there was some kind of provision of ownership where an owner who does absolutlely nothing to improve his/her franchise for several years, could be forced to sell the franchise. I really don't want to see any young NFL prospect go to the Bungles or Retardinals ever again as long as they're owned by those two knobs.

iceblizzard69
12-21-2002, 11:11 AM
Expo,
I don't agree with you about Sterling if he resigns everyone after this season. If Sterling keeps the Clippers intact, they will be amazing. I can't figure out how the Clippers aren't doing great already with the talent they have.

Dajesus
12-21-2002, 02:09 PM
It was all over ESPN radio on Monday that he went to the NFL for help. Someone will be in Cincy next season to run football operations.

SMadison29
12-22-2002, 03:15 AM
I'd take what Len reported pretty much as fact, because no matter who the GM is, Mike Brown is the one signing the pay checks.

Dajesus
12-22-2002, 04:52 AM
If you take what anyone on ESPN sais as a fact you will look silly quite often. I am pretty sure if the NFL puts someone in as your GM he would have about 99.9% controll. He may not even sign anyone as a GM, but my point is ESPN, the Bengals, and Mike Brown have no idea what they are going to do in the draft yet. Their could be a new coach in Cincy, there could be a new GM in cicncy, Jon Kitna could decide he wants to join the millitary tomorrow. Do you see where I am going with this.

SMadison29
12-23-2002, 11:39 PM
<<Jon Kitna could decide he wants to join the millitary tomorrow. Do you see where I am going with this>>

LOL, well he's got the haircut for it.