PDA

View Full Version : BoSox get Beckett!!!!!



PressCoverage
11-21-2005, 08:22 PM
Hooray! Now, someone get him to a qualified dermatologist and fix those blisters!

RWhitney014
11-21-2005, 08:34 PM
Not quite...the deal isn't done yet. But it would be Beckett and Lowell for Hanley Ramirez and Jon Lester/Anibal Sanchez, as well as a PTBNL. Boston likely picking up a lot, if not all, of Lowell's contract.

NJFINSFAN1
11-21-2005, 08:43 PM
Could be a good move for the Sox's!

ChambersWI
11-21-2005, 08:55 PM
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell

for

Hanley Ramirez
Anibel Sanchez
one other minor league player to be named later

hurts Marlins in the short term, but a future lineup of HanRam,Hermida,and Cabrera is tempting.

phunwin
11-21-2005, 08:58 PM
Great move for the Sox if this goes through. They badly needed a frontline starter last year. Also, Lowell should be much better next year, though with Youkilis around, the Sox are probably just taking him as salary ballast.

RWhitney014
11-21-2005, 09:05 PM
Lowell's lazy flies to the warning track are doubles and homers at Fenway. This is a good deal for him. I'm wondering who the second pitcher, TBNL, is...the Marlins badly wanted Craig Hansen in the draft but couldn't agree to a contract with him. This may be their chance to get him.

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 09:14 PM
Great news for the Red Sox. I'm giddy over what Beckett can do if healthy. He's young 25 or 26 in May and can win big games, hopefully those blisters will never come back. This is a move the Sox had to make in my opinion. With Beckett, Lester, Papelbon all being 26 and younger the Sox pitching staff will be good for awhile if they all stay healthy. I'm also glad that the Sox didn't give up Lester in the deal. I'm a big Hanley Ramirez fan however his lack of hitting has been very worrisome within the organization but Hanley is a stud defensively. Anibal Sanchez has some very very good stuff too, he was the 3rd best pitcher in the Sox farm system (behind Papelbon and Lester) although he was shut down late in the year with a bad shoulder/arm.

I'm not too happy with getting Lowell because he was terrible in 2005, however he did play gold glove 3rd base (I'm sure he can play 1st too if need be). Hopefully he earns his pay check.

The Marlins won't get Hansen, sorry RWhitney.

Playmaker7
11-21-2005, 09:33 PM
I was jumping through the roof when i saw this. This is great for the Sox. I'll take proven pitching over unproven hitting any day of the week. In Beckett can stay healthy he should be a Cy Young candidate. Him and Jon Papelbon will provide us with two young arms that we can building around for a long time.

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 09:45 PM
I was jumping through the roof when i saw this. This is great for the Sox. I'll take proven pitching over unproven hitting any day of the week. In Beckett can stay healthy he should be a Cy Young candidate. Him and Jon Papelbon will provide us with two young arms that we can building around for a long time.

Don't go forgetting about John "Lefty" Lester. He could be in the rotation as early as 2007. Between him, Beckett and Papelbon (if they're all there in 2007) we'd have 3/5 of the rotation under 30.

nyjunc
11-21-2005, 09:53 PM
IF Beckett and Schilling are healthy that's bad news for the rest of baseball unless of course Manny is gone.

MikeO
11-21-2005, 10:13 PM
If Lowell finds his old form, the trade is great. If he plays like he did last year then this deal makes no sense.

Beckett has only won more than 9 games once in his career in the NL (with no DH) I don't see him having much luck in the AL, especially his first year in the AL.

And picking up Lowell's contract probably means the end of Johnny Damon in Boston. Especially if they can't move Manny.

AJBurnett34
11-21-2005, 10:25 PM
damn losing beckett sucked, but we need to cut payroll.

here is some articles on it:

http://marlinsclubhouse.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=1075&pid=10496#pid10496

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 10:29 PM
And picking up Lowell's contract probably means the end of Johnny Damon in Boston. Especially if they can't move Manny.

Apparently Damon has come out and said that he wants to stay in Boston and for Boston to make him a fair offer and he'll stay (whatever that means). I don't think it means Damon or Manny are gone. The Sox have plenty of money especially if they could move Wells and also don't forget they have money coming off of the books in the next few years. They can afford to take on Lowell's contract no matter how bad it is.

FaninPatsyLand
11-21-2005, 10:30 PM
Lester isn't involved right?? :D

Hell YES! Great trade if Lester isn't going to Florida.

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 10:32 PM
Lester isn't involved right?? :D

Hell YES! Great trade if Lester isn't going to Florida.

According to the people involved in the trade FL wanted Lester but the Sox said no way so FL took Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez and a minor league player to be named later.

This trade COULD turn out to be a steal for the Sox. However it could also be a good trade for both teams as FL is getting two high ranked prospects.

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 10:37 PM
The player to be named later could be Jesus Delgado, a 21 year old RP who throws hard and keeps the ball on the ground. The Sox last week put him on the 40 man roster to protect him from the Rule 5 Draft.

CanadaPhinsFan
11-21-2005, 10:38 PM
According to the people involved in the trade FL wanted Lester but the Sox said no way so FL took Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez and a minor league player to be named later.

This trade COULD turn out to be a steal for the Sox. However it could also be a good trade for both teams as FL is getting two high ranked prospects.

ESPN.com says Boston told them Lester isn't going anywhere. This deal would make the Sox VERY tough to beat.

FaninPatsyLand
11-21-2005, 10:40 PM
It's rough to lose Hanley, but if it was between Hanley and Jon Lester, I'm packing Ramirez's bags for him!

Sox fans HAVE to love this trade, Beckett is a STUD.

FaninPatsyLand
11-21-2005, 10:46 PM
Lowell's lazy flies to the warning track are doubles and homers at Fenway. This is a good deal for him. I'm wondering who the second pitcher, TBNL, is...the Marlins badly wanted Craig Hansen in the draft but couldn't agree to a contract with him. This may be their chance to get him.

Get the **** outta here! (JK) :lol:

But seriously, no Hansen..

RWhitney014
11-21-2005, 10:51 PM
Get the **** outta here! (JK) :lol:

But seriously, no Hansen..

It could also be Gary Galvez. He had a good year at A. I don't know how to feel about this. While the guys we're getting back are going to be good players, we all imagined Beckett in a Marlins uniform for a long time. It was always Beckett, Willis, Cabrera, and Hermida as the core no matter what. But we had to get rid of Lowell, and this was how to do it.

And let's not forget, Mike Lowell had a great career here. Shame it had to end the way it did. I just hope the Marlins can pull a 2005 Oakland and be competitive immediately.

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 10:55 PM
It could also be Gary Galvez. He had a good year at A. I don't know how to feel about this. While the guys we're getting back are going to be good players, we all imagined Beckett in a Marlins uniform for a long time. It was always Beckett, Willis, Cabrera, and Hermida as the core no matter what. But we had to get rid of Lowell, and this was how to do it.

And let's not forget, Mike Lowell had a great career here. Shame it had to end the way it did. I just hope the Marlins can pull a 2005 Oakland and be competitive immediately.

I'm shocked this deal is going through, I pictured Beckett in FL for a long long time. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me but maybe FL thinks Beckett is a big injury risk (which is ok because I think the Red Sox FO think Anibal Sanchez is too). Hanley has the tools to be great however I think the press he was getting got to his head a bit, it's too bad I would have loved to see him in Boston but I'll take a proven 25 year old big game pitcher any day for a prospect.

FaninPatsyLand
11-21-2005, 10:56 PM
And let's not forget, Mike Lowell had a great career here. Shame it had to end the way it did. I just hope the Marlins can pull a 2005 Oakland and be competitive immediately.

I agree there. Mike Lowell isn't some throw away, the guy is a good player who had a down year.

However, I'm somewhat dissapointed because this is the writing on the wall that Bill Mueller is done here. I loved the guy, but this is a trade that needed to be done from the Red Sox perspective. Hanley had nowhere to play after we signed Renteria (:shakeno: ) this past offseason.

I'm absolutely thrilled that Lester isn't going anywhere in this deal. A future rotation of Beckett, Papelbon and Jon Lester gives me chills.

RWhitney014
11-21-2005, 11:06 PM
I agree there. Mike Lowell isn't some throw away, the guy is a good player who had a down year.

However, I'm somewhat dissapointed because this is the writing on the wall that Bill Mueller is done here. I loved the guy, but this is a trade that needed to be done from the Red Sox perspective. Hanley had nowhere to play after we signed Renteria (:shakeno: ) this past offseason.

I'm absolutely thrilled that Lester isn't going anywhere in this deal. A future rotation of Beckett, Papelbon and Jon Lester gives me chills.

We wanted Lester badly. But not badly enough that we didn't want to risk keeping Lowell's salary on the books. Anyone see how much Boston is taking of that?

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 11:18 PM
We wanted Lester badly. But not badly enough that we didn't want to risk keeping Lowell's salary on the books. Anyone see how much Boston is taking of that?

Apparently from reports I read FL is going to pick up some of his contract too. I'll find a link for you in a minute.

EDIT: I thought I read on rotoworld.com that the only thing keeping the deal is players passing their physicals and how much money FL would pay Lowell. But it's not there anymore. I assume that the Sox would pay at least 80 cents on the dollar.

Also there's talk the Sox could trade Lowell to Minnesota for Scott Baker and J.C. Romero.

UCFinfan86
11-21-2005, 11:22 PM
my 2 teams are the SOx and the Marlisn so im happy for both teams. For Florida this could now mean theyw ill keep Delgado and Pierre which means they still have a feraed lineup of Pierre, Castillo, Delgado, Cabrera, Hermedia and it also means that they can just sign Alex toa 1 yera deal for this year and have Hanely for SS next year. I am guessing that Florida didnt think they could get all taht great stuff from Tradign Blalock, cuz i really liek Danks hes gonna be good.

As for the redsox they have a good rotation is healthy, but hoepfully they wil have a nuff to sign damon if not its not hte end of the world, all reports say we are tradign Wells for Roberts so he coudl spot and it also means that we would have money to spend on RP or we could get a mid CF like a Corey Patterson who it hink has good upside

GreenMonster
11-21-2005, 11:25 PM
Apparently from reports I read FL is going to pick up some of his contract too. I'll find a link for you in a minute.

They have said they will pick up a bit in the story at Espn.com. I can't believe Florida is gonna move Beckett and not players like Delgado. Good young power pitchers are impossible to find, even at these prices..

Ray Finkle
11-21-2005, 11:50 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2005/11/beckett-1.jpg

I heard that the goatee may or may not be part of the trade. There's rumblings that Matt Clement's agent has called up the Sox F.O. and told them that Matt might be a little hurt if Beckett's goatee joins the team.

FaninPatsyLand
11-21-2005, 11:52 PM
The goatee looks too much like Kevin Millar... now that's some scary ****!

RWhitney014
11-21-2005, 11:54 PM
my 2 teams are the SOx and the Marlisn so im happy for both teams. For Florida this could now mean theyw ill keep Delgado and Pierre which means they still have a feraed lineup of Pierre, Castillo, Delgado, Cabrera, Hermedia and it also means that they can just sign Alex toa 1 yera deal for this year and have Hanely for SS next year. I am guessing that Florida didnt think they could get all taht great stuff from Tradign Blalock, cuz i really liek Danks hes gonna be good.

As for the redsox they have a good rotation is healthy, but hoepfully they wil have a nuff to sign damon if not its not hte end of the world, all reports say we are tradign Wells for Roberts so he coudl spot and it also means that we would have money to spend on RP or we could get a mid CF like a Corey Patterson who it hink has good upside

You're very optimistic. Alex is gone, forget about him. Delgado is likely gone, too. But we'll get good stuff for him, hopefully...nature of the beast.

FaninPatsyLand
11-22-2005, 12:58 AM
Beckett has only won more than 9 games once in his career in the NL (with no DH) I don't see him having much luck in the AL, especially his first year in the AL.

Yeah, ok. And your basing this on what? Let's judge the kid's career before he reaches the age of 26.


For comparison's sake, in his fifth season in the major leagues, Martinez was 13-10 with a 3.70 ERA. In 2005, Beckett went a similar 15-8, with a 3.38 ERA. A year later, in 1997, Martinez opened the world up to his dominance, when he was 17-8 with a 1.90 ERA. By December, he was in Boston.

Your original claim was asinine, at best. The fact of the matter is that you have absolutely NO idea. But thanks for the input..

http://www.boston.com/sports/nesn/wilbur/sports_blog/blog/2005/11/21/grin_and_beckett/

GreenMonster
11-22-2005, 01:43 AM
Has Beckett ever pitched against the Yankees yet.. I am sure MikeO will tell me how if you can't even dominate AL Hitters how do you think you can take on the Yankees and win..

Clark Kent
11-22-2005, 01:47 AM
Not exactly sure if I like the deal... Beckett has had his issues in the past, baring the MVP in the WS. Time will tell...

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 01:53 AM
Has Beckett ever pitched against the Yankees yet.. I am sure MikeO will tell me how if you can't even dominate AL Hitters how do you think you can take on the Yankees and win..

Only the 2003 World Series, I believe and we all know the outcome of that. But in case you forgot it was a complete game victory in winning game at Yankee Stadium pitching on 3 days rest.

Yes Beckett has problem with blisters but did anyone stop and think that maybe pitching away from FL where the air is very humid and pitching in a place like Boston where its cold from April to June and in October could help him?

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 01:56 AM
Not exactly sure if I like the deal... Beckett has had his issues in the past, baring the MVP in the WS. Time will tell...

What's not to like about this deal? We gave up Hanley Ramirez (who many have soured on due to his hitting- don't get me wrong the kid can play) and our 3rd or 4th best pitching prospect (behind Papelbon, Lester and Hansen) in Anibal Sanchez for a proven big game 25 year old pitcher (Josh Beckett)and a gold glove 3rd/1st baseman (Mike Lowell) who the Sox might move to Minnesota for Scott Baker and J.C. Romero and possibly Kyle Loshe.

kastofsna120
11-22-2005, 01:58 AM
beckett is overrated, and i'm more concerned about losing burnett than beckett. however, we're left with just willis as our only semi-proven starter. it's gonna be a rough year

lowell had to go, though

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 02:00 AM
beckett is overrated, and i'm more concerned about losing burnett than beckett. however, we're left with just willis as our only semi-proven starter. it's gonna be a rough year

lowell had to go, though

Why are you mad Burnett is gone? Him going 0 and 6 down the strench is a big reason (maybe THE reason) why the Marlins didn't make the playoffs this year. Beckett at least has pitched in big games and won.

FaninPatsyLand
11-22-2005, 02:04 AM
Beckett is overrated?

I really have to question if some of these posters actually watch baseball. I mean seriously, what a ridiculous comment. A 25 year old, with electric stuff and a former World Series MVP is overrated?

Gimme a break..

GreenMonster
11-22-2005, 02:16 AM
Beckett is overrated?

I really have to question if some of these posters actually watch baseball. I mean seriously, what a ridiculous comment. A 25 year old, with electric stuff and a former World Series MVP is overrated?

Gimme a break..

Seriously.. Overrated as compared to who.

Burnett
2003 - 4.70 23.0in (0-2) 18 BB 21 K's
2004 - 3.68 120in (7-6) 38BB 113 K's
2005 - 3.45 209in (12-12) 79 BB 198 K's

Beckett
2003 - 3.04 142in (9-8) 56 BB 152 K's
2004 - 3.79 157.2 (9-9) 54 BB 152 K's
2005 - 3.38 179in (15-8) 58 BB 166 K's

Someone please tell me how Burnett is better.. Beckett is 3 years younger also..

FinsNYanksFan13
11-22-2005, 02:41 AM
There's two keys to this deal for the Red Sox. # 1 If Beckett stays healthy and # 2 if the 2005 Lowell was just a one year thing and he goes back to being even half the hitter he's been in the past. If Beckett stays healthy then and Lowell's bat wakes up, this is a steal!


Also you can see Boston heading into a different direction then where Theo wanted this team to be. Theo was against trading his young prospects and wanted to build through them. Ownership wants to do it the Steinbrenner way. Nothing wrong with that when your in a market like Boston and then fans are at crazy as they are but I just thought this deal showed the Theo era is over in Boston (going in a different direction then he wanted to steer the ship)!

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 02:48 AM
There's two keys to this deal for the Red Sox. # 1 If Beckett stays healthy and # 2 if the 2005 Lowell was just a one year thing and he goes back to being even half the hitter he's been in the past. If Beckett stays healthy then and Lowell's bat wakes up, this is a steal!


Also you can see Boston heading into a different direction then where Theo wanted this team to be. Theo was against trading his young prospects and wanted to build through them. Ownership wants to do it the Steinbrenner way. Nothing wrong with that when your in a market like Boston and then fans are at crazy as they are but I just thought this deal showed the Theo era is over in Boston (going in a different direction then he wanted to steer the ship)!

I disagree, the Sox told FL there was no way they were trading Lester. So instead the Sox shipped FL their 3 or 4th best pitching prospect and Hanley (again I think the guy is going to be good but his hitting just isn't there yet) for a 25 year old pitcher. Beckett is almost the same age as Papelbon. It's not like the Sox traded young prospects for a Curt Schilling or Randy Johnson. They traded youth for youth without giving up too much. Plus they got a proven young pitcher (how many times in baseball does that happen?).

The Sox are still building the team with kids. Dustin Pedroia is the future 2nd baseman (as early as this year). Hansen in the pen, Papelbon up with the big club, Delcarmen and Lester in their way. Also David Murphy could be up if something happens to an outfielder.

Also I feel that this deal would be done even if Theo was here, it's a no brainer in my opinion.

I agree with you about Beckett's health and about Lowell. However I'll take a healthy Beckett if that means the Sox will get a 2005 Lowell.

FaninPatsyLand
11-22-2005, 02:55 AM
There's two keys to this deal for the Red Sox. # 1 If Beckett stays healthy and # 2 if the 2005 Lowell was just a one year thing and he goes back to being even half the hitter he's been in the past. If Beckett stays healthy then and Lowell's bat wakes up, this is a steal!


Also you can see Boston heading into a different direction then where Theo wanted this team to be. Theo was against trading his young prospects and wanted to build through them. Ownership wants to do it the Steinbrenner way. Nothing wrong with that when your in a market like Boston and then fans are at crazy as they are but I just thought this deal showed the Theo era is over in Boston (going in a different direction then he wanted to steer the ship)!

I agree with most of your post, except the part about Lowell. Whether this deal is considered a success or failure a couple of years from now doesn't hinge on Mike Lowell's production. This deal was all about Beckett.

But as far as Lowell is concerned, it's interesting. Lowell is an outstanding 3rd baseman and immediately becomes one of the top 3 defensive 3rd basemen in the AL, we are talking maybe only Chavez ahead of him and A-Rod is right there as well. The move to Fenway is going to help his offensive numbers, but any offensive production we get from him next year is just icing on the cake. If he doesn't work out we have Youkilis who we can move around to fill holes in the infield.

As long as Beckett stays healthy, which I'm confident he will (it's not a serious arm problem, they're blisters) then this is a great deal for the Red Sox.

kastofsna120
11-22-2005, 03:11 AM
Why are you mad Burnett is gone? Him going 0 and 6 down the strench is a big reason (maybe THE reason) why the Marlins didn't make the playoffs this year. Beckett at least has pitched in big games and won.
because burnett is better than beckett. his late-season tirade ended his career with the marlins, though. too bad

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 03:27 AM
because burnett is better than beckett. his late-season tirade ended his career with the marlins, though. too bad

A.J. Burnett- 28 years old, 7 years in the MLB
Career- 49 and 50, 854.2 innings pitched, 3.73 ERA, 753 Ks

Josh Beckett- 25 years old, 5 years in the MLB
Career- 41 and 34, 609 innings pitched, 3.46 ERA, 607 Ks

How is Burnett better? Beckett is younger and also cheaper than A.J. and didn't crap the bed when his team needed him. I'll take Beckett any day over A.J.

dob72
11-22-2005, 03:29 AM
maybe this trade will help us in the long run (if there is a long run) but its still pretty sad to see josh go

dob72
11-22-2005, 03:30 AM
A.J. Burnett- 28 years old, 7 years in the MLB
Career- 49 and 50, 854.2 innings pitched, 3.73 ERA, 753 Ks

Josh Beckett- 25 years old, 5 years in the MLB
Career- 41 and 34, 609 innings pitched, 3.46 ERA, 607 Ks

How is Burnett better? Beckett is younger and also cheaper than A.J. and didn't crap the bed when his team needed him. I'll take Beckett any day over A.J.
i've seen them both pitch many many times and josh is way better aj seem to choke alway in big games josh was the other way around always came up big

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 03:44 AM
maybe this trade will help us in the long run (if there is a long run) but its still pretty sad to see josh go

Trust me, you'll love Hanley the first time you see him play. He's full of energy. I've seen Sanchez pitch 2 times and he has really good stuff. The Marlins can have a future with them. I wish both guys the best of luck and I hope they turn out to be good players that help the Marlins.

nyjunc
11-22-2005, 08:05 AM
Only the 2003 World Series, I believe and we all know the outcome of that. But in case you forgot it was a complete game victory in winning game at Yankee Stadium pitching on 3 days rest.

Yes Beckett has problem with blisters but did anyone stop and think that maybe pitching away from FL where the air is very humid and pitching in a place like Boston where its cold from April to June and in October could help him?

When Beckett is healthy he is a dominant SP BUT he is rarely healthy. Thatis the risk in the trade. If he can stay healthy it's worth whoever you give up but if not it could turn out to be a terrible deal.

MikeO
11-22-2005, 10:33 AM
Beckett is overrated?

I really have to question if some of these posters actually watch baseball. I mean seriously, what a ridiculous comment. A 25 year old, with electric stuff and a former World Series MVP is overrated?

Gimme a break..

He has only won more than 9 games in a season ONCE in his career. Yes, the 2003 postseason he was excellent. But you can't judge a guy based on one world series. At some point......do something else! Do it again.

Section126
11-22-2005, 11:35 AM
My Take on this trade.....

In eight years....Marlins fans will forget (hyperbole) who they traded for Hanley Ramirez....


If Hanley Ramirez lives up to what most scouts thought of him two years ago....then the Marlins got equal value.

FinsNYanksFan13
11-22-2005, 01:43 PM
My Take on this trade.....

In eight years....Marlins fans will forget (hyperbole) who they traded for Hanley Ramirez....


If Hanley Ramirez lives up to what most scouts thought of him two years ago....then the Marlins got equal value.



In eight years the Marlins will be in a new city. Start becoming a Devil Rays fan Section!

Section126
11-22-2005, 01:50 PM
In eight years the Marlins will be in a new city. Start becoming a Devil Rays fan Section!


Who said I was a Marlins fan?

nyjunc
11-22-2005, 02:01 PM
In eight years the Marlins will be in a new city. Start becoming a Devil Rays fan Section!

Along w/ the Heat after Shaq retires and they go back to half empty buildings :lol:

Section126
11-22-2005, 03:06 PM
Along w/ the Heat after Shaq retires and they go back to half empty buildings :lol:


WOW...the envy is palpable.

Wade will pack them in for years to come.....

BTW...you forgot my post about the cap bonanza the Heat will recieve when Shaq retires....

Wade will get a new partner....

ChambersWI
11-22-2005, 03:40 PM
this trade will probably bite us in the short run, but Sanches and HanRam are going to be STUDS. We weren't gonna resign Gonzo, and Andino has had an attitude problem/can't hit.

we will probably suck for 1 or 2 years, but we'll have a young corp of Cabs,Hermida, and HanRam and our pitching staff is going to be pretty young (outside of Willis, Vargas will have the most experience)

The Dodgers are supposedly offering us some of their best prospects for either Delgado or JP.

FaninPatsyLand
11-22-2005, 03:50 PM
this trade will probably bite us in the short run, but Sanches and HanRam are going to be STUDS. We weren't gonna resign Gonzo, and Andino has had an attitude problem/can't hit.

we will probably suck for 1 or 2 years, but we'll have a young corp of Cabs,Hermida, and HanRam and our pitching staff is going to be pretty young (outside of Willis, Vargas will have the most experience)

The Dodgers are supposedly offering us some of their best prospects for either Delgado or JP.

Hanley is a freak, he's excellent defensively and he's got an absolute cannon for an arm. We just had no room for him here with Renteria.

I've seen Sanchez throw a couple of times and he's got electric stuff, but he has had some arm problems. Regardless, I think they are both gonna be good players.

From the Red Sox perspective, I'm trading would-be's and could-be's for young proven pitchers anyday of the week. And I'm thrilled we hung onto Jon Lester, if Florida was able to pry him from us in place of Sanchez I wouldn't be nearly as happy with this deal. I absolutely love this trade... and I'd like to thank the GM by committee for getting it done.

When do the Beckett jerseys go on sale?

FaninPatsyLand
11-22-2005, 04:16 PM
Lowell's lazy flies to the warning track are doubles and homers at Fenway. This is a good deal for him. I'm wondering who the second pitcher, TBNL, is...the Marlins badly wanted Craig Hansen in the draft but couldn't agree to a contract with him. This may be their chance to get him.

I'm not sure if it's official, but this is what the Globe is saying..



the Red Sox have pulled off a deal that will impact the current and future health of the franchise much like Pedro Martinez's arrival did eight winters ago, snatching stud ace Josh Beckett from the Florida Marlins for Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, and Jesus Delgado.

He's 21 years old.. Outside of that, I don't know too much about him.

http://www.boston.com/sports/nesn/wilbur/sports_blog/blog/2005/11/22/nothing_fishy_about_it/

dob72
11-22-2005, 05:08 PM
In eight years the Marlins will be in a new city. Start becoming a Devil Rays fan Section!
will they still be called the marlins

nyjunc
11-22-2005, 07:46 PM
WOW...the envy is palpable.

Wade will pack them in for years to come.....

BTW...you forgot my post about the cap bonanza the Heat will recieve when Shaq retires....

Wade will get a new partner....

if Riley is still calling the shots he'lls crew it up and once again no one will care about the Heat.

Envy :lol:

DolphinsFan4evr
11-22-2005, 09:02 PM
I'm not happy. There was no need to ship him off so fast. Yeah we get 3 really good prospects but beckett is signed for low low money for the next 2 seasons. trade delgado for a prospect. They had a great righty lefty 1 and 2 with beckett and willis. and cabrera in the middle of the batting lineup. If their rebuilding you would think you keep cabrera beckett and willis. trade away the rest of the team for all i care but keep those 3.

Section126
11-22-2005, 09:23 PM
if Riley is still calling the shots he'lls crew it up and once again no one will care about the Heat.

Envy :lol:


Boy...... the wishful thinking just reeks of envy!!!

The only thing you have left to do is to start wishing a hurricane blows away our arena....

Don't envy us.....you got a nice little 40-42 team there...cheer them on!!! and especially Vince....pop open that champagne if he finishes the seaosn averaging 28 points a game!!!!!!!! Celebrate.....or the next time Kidd beats his wife!!! You see...you got plenty to look forward too. Don't envy us.

Prime Time
11-22-2005, 10:10 PM
How many times will I say it "Baseball needs a Cap"

I'll be sad to see them go...

Ray Finkle
11-22-2005, 11:52 PM
He has only won more than 9 games in a season ONCE in his career. Yes, the 2003 postseason he was excellent. But you can't judge a guy based on one world series. At some point......do something else! Do it again.

You're missing the point. He's 25 years old and is an ace. He's a proven big game pitcher in the post season. If this was someone like Matt Clement and you said this I'd have to agree with you however considering Beckett's age and also he's been on some bad teams in his career, he has a good career ERA.

Jack McKeon was on WFAN today and said that if the Marlins had hitting then both Beckett and Willis would have had at least 4 extra victories. Wins are overrated a bit.

Here's a better explain: Randy Johnson didn't have over 40 wins until he was 27 and didn't win over 15 games in a season until he was 30. Pedro Martinez didn't have over 40 wins until he was 26 and didn't win over 15 games until he was 26. Both guys are Hall of Famers yet Beckett got to 40 wins quick and had over 15 wins before they did. Is Beckett a Hall of Famer? No but my point is is that he has a very very bright future if he stays healthy. Pitchers start to hit their peak at around 27 or 28 and Beckett is ahead of schedule.

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 08:29 AM
How many times will I say it "Baseball needs a Cap"

I'll be sad to see them go...

This has nothing to do w/ baseball needing a cap, it has to do w/ nobody caring about the Marlins in South Florida even though they've won 2 titles in the past 9 seasons and if they had a cap the marlins would only have 1 title instead of 2.

MikeO
11-23-2005, 09:00 AM
You're missing the point. He's 25 years old and is an ace. He's a proven big game pitcher in the post season. If this was someone like Matt Clement and you said this I'd have to agree with you however considering Beckett's age and also he's been on some bad teams in his career, he has a good career ERA.

Jack McKeon was on WFAN today and said that if the Marlins had hitting then both Beckett and Willis would have had at least 4 extra victories. Wins are overrated a bit.

Here's a better explain: Randy Johnson didn't have over 40 wins until he was 27 and didn't win over 15 games in a season until he was 30. Pedro Martinez didn't have over 40 wins until he was 26 and didn't win over 15 games until he was 26. Both guys are Hall of Famers yet Beckett got to 40 wins quick and had over 15 wins before they did. Is Beckett a Hall of Famer? No but my point is is that he has a very very bright future if he stays healthy. Pitchers start to hit their peak at around 27 or 28 and Beckett is ahead of schedule.

Im not missing the point. He is always injured. Randy Johnson was never constantly injured. Randy Johnson was also pitching in Montreal where they never won period. Bad stat to bring up. Beckett was on world series and playoff teams. And he still can't win more than 9 games a year.

Guys are who they are. Clement is a wild pitcher with no control. He proved that this year. Wade Miller can't ever stay healthy, he proved that this year. And Josh Beckett won't give you a full season and is always missing starts. And if he wins more than 9 games throw a friggin parade. THAT WON'T CHANGE WITH A NEW UNIFORM AND CITY! Guys are who they are.

You just better hope Schilling gets back to 100% then you have nothing to worry about.

MikeO
11-23-2005, 09:00 AM
How many times will I say it "Baseball needs a Cap"

I'll be sad to see them go...

This has nothing to do with a cap. Even if the cap is say $95 mill or $80 mill, if the Marlins only want to spend $40 mill on players, these guys are still gone. Cheap owner. Cheap team. Cheap franchise. GOOD-BYE PLAYERS!

PressCoverage
11-23-2005, 09:39 AM
This has nothing to do w/ baseball needing a cap, it has to do w/ nobody caring about the Marlins in South Florida even though they've won 2 titles in the past 9 seasons and if they had a cap the marlins would only have 1 title instead of 2.

my god... you just can't let a thread go without making an unnecessary jab at south florida, can you?... you come off as so pompous... not that we'd expect anything less from a new yorker, or new york fan...

look, i understand your anger that your precious Yankees couldn't buy another title and got humiliated on their own field by Florida, but you're wrong that no one cares about the Marlins... i care about the marlins... and apparently a lot of other people do as well... there's 10 million people down here... unfortunately, they're spread out over a vast area and can't drive 90 minutes to a regular season baseball game...

trying to discredit at least one their two titles is a real reach... got news for ya: If there was a salary cap in baseball, would the yankees have EVER won a title?... whatever...

dob72
11-23-2005, 10:06 AM
if there was a cap the yankees would never get to the playoffs

MikeO
11-23-2005, 10:09 AM
if there was a cap the yankees would never get to the playoffs

WHY? The NY Rangers in the NHL sucked for years spending and spending with no cap, they add a cap this year and they are one of the best teams thus far in the NHL. You can't say the Yanks would suck if there were a cap.

It all depends on what type of cap (hard or soft) and what the cap limit is. If the cap limit is $100 mill, well half the teams if not more would only use 40% of 50% of that cap and not even spend more than $50 mill or so. Therefore, the Yanks spending at $100 mill or close the cap limit would still be outspending most teams.

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 10:40 AM
Im not missing the point. He is always injured. Randy Johnson was never constantly injured. Randy Johnson was also pitching in Montreal where they never won period. Bad stat to bring up. Beckett was on world series and playoff teams. And he still can't win more than 9 games a year.

Guys are who they are. Clement is a wild pitcher with no control. He proved that this year. Wade Miller can't ever stay healthy, he proved that this year. And Josh Beckett won't give you a full season and is always missing starts. And if he wins more than 9 games throw a friggin parade. THAT WON'T CHANGE WITH A NEW UNIFORM AND CITY! Guys are who they are.

You just better hope Schilling gets back to 100% then you have nothing to worry about.

Is this what you said when the Yanks signed Pavano. For the 1st 6 years of his career he only avg less than 20 starts a year. Please tell me now how Pavano is a much better pitcher than Beckett.. I sense jealousy...

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 10:46 AM
my god... you just can't let a thread go without making an unnecessary jab at south florida, can you?... you come off as so pompous... not that we'd expect anything less from a new yorker, or new york fan...

so you are telling me South Florida is a great baseball town and supports the marlins? They must all be wearing orange shirts to the games then.


look, i understand your anger that your precious Yankees couldn't buy another title and got humiliated on their own field by Florida,

we haven't bought any titles, the latest dynasty was built from w/in. An example of a tam buying a Championship would be the 1997 Florida marlins.


i care about the marlins... and apparently a lot of other people do as well... there's 10 million people down here... unfortunately, they're spread out over a vast area and can't drive 90 minutes to a regular season baseball game...

Please spare me the excuses. I'm sure some folks care like yourself but overall no one cares or else attendance would be better. You can't draw flies in that building and that's w/ the only other franchise besides the Yanks to have multiple Championships since 1997.


trying to discredit at least one their two titles is a real reach... got news for ya: If there was a salary cap in baseball, would the yankees have EVER won a title?... whatever...

I wasn't trying to discredit it but a Marlins fan was complaining this firesale was b/c they needed a cap and that's not true and the facts are if we had a cap the '97 marlins wouldn't have existed and you'd have 1 title instead of 2.

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 10:47 AM
Randy Johnson before the age of 26

17-26 with and ERA over 5.00...

Wow Randy got better with experience...

MikeO
11-23-2005, 11:13 AM
Is this what you said when the Yanks signed Pavano. For the 1st 6 years of his career he only avg less than 20 starts a year. Please tell me now how Pavano is a much better pitcher than Beckett.. I sense jealousy...

The Yanks didn't trade for Pavano. BIG DIFFERENCE. They didn't give up any top prospects to get him. You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

MikeO
11-23-2005, 11:13 AM
Randy Johnson before the age of 26

17-26 with and ERA over 5.00...

Wow Randy got better with experience...

Getting out of Monteral and Seattle helped.

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 11:37 AM
The Yanks didn't trade for Pavano. BIG DIFFERENCE. They didn't give up any top prospects to get him. You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

Your right you didn't trade for Pavano because you have no prospects to trade. (unless you want to give up Wang or Cano). I would rather have 2 years of Beckett at a relative cheap salary then 4 years of and overrater Pavano. As for giving up prospects the Marlins got 2 of our better ones. But our farm system is fine (Lester, Shoppach, Murphy, Papelbon, Hansen, Delcarman, Pedoria, Moss). I am happy to give up 2 prospect for a 26 year old power pitcher and former WS MVP. The Sox trade of 2 prospects for Pedro was a good trade. What were those 2 pitchers names.. 1 is an overpaid starter with a career losing record and an era over 4. The other isn't as overpaid, but still has a career losing record and era over 4. That trade worked out ok...

MikeO
11-23-2005, 11:39 AM
Your right you didn't trade for Pavano because you have no prospects to trade. (unless you want to give up Wang or Cano). I would rather have 2 years of Beckett at a relative cheap salary then 4 years of and overrater Pavano. As for giving up prospects the Marlins got 2 of our better ones. But our farm system is fine (Lester, Shoppach, Murphy, Papelbon, Hansen, Delcarman, Pedoria, Moss). I am happy to give up 2 prospect for a 26 year old power pitcher and former WS MVP. The Sox trade of 2 prospects for Pedro was a good trade. What were those 2 pitchers names.. 1 is an overpaid starter with a career losing record and an era over 4. The other isn't as overpaid, but still has a career losing record and era over 4. That trade worked out ok...

Oh please, the Yanks have no prospects........get off it already. They do.

And don't compare Pedro to Beckett.....please!

dob72
11-23-2005, 11:44 AM
we haven't bought any titles
hahahahahahahaha thats the funniest sh1t i have ever read u should work for jay leno

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 11:47 AM
Oh please, the Yanks have no prospects........get off it already. They do.

And don't compare Pedro to Beckett.....please!

Thats funny you guys tried to get Beckett also, only to realize the only prospect you had that the Marlins wanted was Wang. Pitchers like Beckett don't come along very often, and certainly not for trade. There are not many pitchers in baseball today with a higher ceiling than Beckett.

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 11:55 AM
hahahahahahahaha thats the funniest sh1t i have ever read u should work for jay leno

go back and show me the years(w/ details) about how we "bought" CHampionships?

MikeO
11-23-2005, 11:55 AM
Thats funny you guys tried to get Beckett also, only to realize the only prospect you had that the Marlins wanted was Wang. Pitchers like Beckett don't come along very often, and certainly not for trade. There are not many pitchers in baseball today with a higher ceiling than Beckett.

I'm happy with Wang. I have no problem keeping him. He proved this year he can pitch in New York and pitch in the bright spotlight with no problems.

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 12:01 PM
go back and show me the years(w/ details) about how we "bought" CHampionships?

It all started when you bought Babe Ruth..

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 12:06 PM
I'm happy with Wang. I have no problem keeping him. He proved this year he can pitch in New York and pitch in the bright spotlight with no problems.

Guess what Hanley and Anibel have done in the majors, nothing. For all we know those 2 guys may be the 2nd coming of Tim Naehring and Brian Rose. I do think keeping Wang was a good deal for you. But other than Wang, Duncan and Hughes, your other top prospects are decent at best (Melkey, Henn, Garcia)...

MikeO
11-23-2005, 12:10 PM
It all started when you bought Babe Ruth..

And I guess Ortiz, Manny, and Schilling came up through your farm system..:shakeno:

MikeO
11-23-2005, 12:11 PM
Guess what Hanley and Anibel have done in the majors, nothing. For all we know those 2 guys may be the 2nd coming of Tim Naehring and Brian Rose. I do think keeping Wang was a good deal for you. But other than Wang, Duncan and Hughes, your other top prospects are decent at best (Melkey, Henn, Garcia)...

Nobody even knew or mentioned Cano or Wang last year as "top prospects". Those "prospects" ratings are way overrated.

Section126
11-23-2005, 12:13 PM
I wasn't trying to discredit it but a Marlins fan was complaining this firesale was b/c they needed a cap and that's not true and the facts are if we had a cap the '97 marlins wouldn't have existed and you'd have 1 title instead of 2.


You really should know what you are talking about before you post on a subject.

The average salary in 1997 was $1,383,578. The Marlins were 7th in Payroll.

The average salary of a Marlins player was $1,776,200. (30 players)

That is a +13,087 overage per player....

The minimum salary was $150,000.

All this means is that the 1997 Marlins would have been $300,000 over the cap.....I think they would have come under the cap and still won.


So...no...you are wrong...a salary cap would not have prevented the 1997 Marlins from winning.


The Marlins only added two free agents of any significance in 1997. Bobby Bonilla and Moises Alou.

GreenMonster
11-23-2005, 12:14 PM
Nobody even knew or mentioned Cano or Wang last year as "top prospects". Those "prospects" ratings are way overrated.

Then how do you know that giving up Hanley and Anibal for Beckett is a bad trade. Maybe those 2 guys are the worst 2 prospects we have and we have just been hyping them all these years to trade them..

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 12:20 PM
You really should know what you are talking about before you post on a subject.

The average salary in 1997 was $1,383,578. The Marlins were 7th in Payroll.

The average salary of a Marlins player was $1,776,200. (30 players)

That is a +13,087 overage per player....

The minimum salary was $150,000.

All this means is that the 1997 Marlins would have been $300,000 over the cap.....I think they would have come under the cap and still won.


So...no...you are wrong...a salary cap would not have prevented the 1997 Marlins from winning.


The Marlins only added two free agents of any significance in 1997. Bobby Bonilla and Moises Alou.

They bought 90% of the team and the best players on the team. Sheff, Bonilla, Alou, Brown, Leiter, White, Counsell, Fernandez, Hernandez, Nen,... The list goes on and on. They won it the right way in 2003 but the '97 ws 90% bought and that's why they had to have a firesale in the offseason.

Section126
11-23-2005, 12:26 PM
They bought 90% of the team and the best players on the team. Sheff, Bonilla, Alou, Brown, Leiter, White, Counsell, Fernandez, Hernandez, Nen,... The list goes on and on. They won it the right way in 2003 but the '97 ws 90% bought and that's why they had to have a firesale in the offseason.


Stop it already.

You are wrong.

Sheff was an expansion draft player BTW.....

The other players were aquirred through free agency over three years....


The only players added through FA in 1997 were Bonilla and Alou.

Section126
11-23-2005, 12:28 PM
Yankee fans talking about "buying" teams.... :lol:

PRICELESS!

FinsNYanksFan13
11-23-2005, 12:32 PM
Yankee fans talking about "buying" teams.... :lol:

PRICELESS!


Why you sweatin the Yankees so much if you hate them? You need to get a chick Section!

RWhitney014
11-23-2005, 12:35 PM
They bought 90% of the team and the best players on the team. Sheff, Bonilla, Alou, Brown, Leiter, White, Counsell, Fernandez, Hernandez, Nen,... The list goes on and on. They won it the right way in 2003 but the '97 ws 90% bought and that's why they had to have a firesale in the offseason.

Ridiculous statement. Lowell, Pierre, Lee, Pudge, Encarnacion, Conine, Pavano, Redman, Willis, and plenty of others were not homegrown in 2003. They were acquired in trades or signed smartly.

In 1997, Sheff had been there since '93, Conine was an expansion player, Leiter and Brown were both acquired before, Counsell was an in-season pickup (no one else ever does that, right?), Hernandez was signed out of Cuba, Nen had been there for years.

No team is ever completely homegrown anymore. That's the way it is now.

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 01:14 PM
Sheff was an expansion draft player BTW.....

No he was not, the marlins traded for him.


Yankee fans talking about "buying" teams....

Once again, show me where we bought Championships. We have tried in recent years but it hasn't worked, please show me the title we bought. This ought to be fun.

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 01:17 PM
Ridiculous statement. Lowell, Pierre, Lee, Pudge, Encarnacion, Conine, Pavano, Redman, Willis, and plenty of others were not homegrown in 2003. They were acquired in trades or signed smartly.


That's the point, you made some smart trades and also developed homegrown talent. You didn't take on big salaries and get guys jut b/c other teams couldn't afford them like you did w/ some key players in '97.

Section126
11-23-2005, 01:28 PM
No he was not, the marlins traded for him.

They traded for Sheffield before the Marlins had ever played a game. The reason the traded for him was because the Padres revoked unprotecting him for the expansion draft. Don't mess with me on this one. I know what I am talking about.


Once again, show me where we bought Championships. We have tried in recent years but it hasn't worked, please show me the title we bought. This ought to be fun.

Trivia Question: How many of the Yankees World Championships were obtained while having the highest payroll in baseball? tick tock....tick tock....


.

FaninPatsyLand
11-23-2005, 01:29 PM
And Josh Beckett won't give you a full season and is always missing starts. And if he wins more than 9 games throw a friggin parade. THAT WON'T CHANGE WITH A NEW UNIFORM AND CITY! Guys are who they are.

I don't think the blisters held Derek Lowe back from sending you losers home in the 2004 ALCS. They're blisters for god sake, stop making it sound like this guy had reconstructive arm surgery.

You are scared. It's ok to admit it.. I'd be scared too if my biggest rival had a rotation of Beckett Papelbon and Lester in a year or two. And lets not forget the impending trade of Manny Ramirez, if he gets dealt to Anahiem Ervin Santana can be placed in that rotation as well.

Come off it Mike.

P.S. I think I just heard a collective "oh ****!" coming from the Bronx.

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 01:53 PM
They traded for Sheffield before the Marlins had ever played a game. The reason the traded for him was because the Padres revoked unprotecting him for the expansion draft. Don't mess with me on this one. I know what I am talking about.


You said he was acquired in the expansion darft, he was NOT. he was traded for, that's the bottom line.


Trivia Question: How many of the Yankees World Championships were obtained while having the highest payroll in baseball? tick tock....tick tock....


i'm not sure but in '98 when we set the all-time wins record(including postseason) we did not lead MLB in payroll and '96, '99 & '00 we led but barely.

Section126
11-23-2005, 01:56 PM
You said he was acquired in the expansion darft, he was NOT. he was traded for, that's the bottom line.

Semantics....the only reason he was not drafted in the expansion draft (he was left unprotected) was because the padres pulled him back. But Sheff was an original Marlin.

i'm not sure but in '98 when we set the all-time wins record(including postseason) we did not lead MLB in payroll and '96, '99 & '00 we led but barely.

You are getting warmer..... :lol:

.

nyjunc
11-23-2005, 01:56 PM
P.S. I think I just heard a collective "oh ****!" coming from the Bronx.


Not if Manny is gone, no manny=the demise of Ortiz and your lineup will not be scary. You also still don't have a closer. Now if Beckett stays healthy, Schilling is relatively healthy(that's a big if), Foulke comes back or yuo get a decent closer and you keep manny then I admit I'll be scared and you guys will be the favorites to win it all.

Ray Finkle
11-23-2005, 02:46 PM
Im not missing the point. He is always injured. Randy Johnson was never constantly injured. Randy Johnson was also pitching in Montreal where they never won period. Bad stat to bring up. Beckett was on world series and playoff teams. And he still can't win more than 9 games a year.

Guys are who they are. Clement is a wild pitcher with no control. He proved that this year. Wade Miller can't ever stay healthy, he proved that this year. And Josh Beckett won't give you a full season and is always missing starts. And if he wins more than 9 games throw a friggin parade. THAT WON'T CHANGE WITH A NEW UNIFORM AND CITY! Guys are who they are.

You just better hope Schilling gets back to 100% then you have nothing to worry about.

No you are missing the points, Beckett had blisters that put him on the DL. He only was sent to the DL once since 2003 with blisters, they apparently solved the problem, and the only reason why he was shut down in 2005 was because the Marlins were out of it and FL was babying the kid. (Those words came out of McKeon's mouth yesterday on WFAN). It's not like he had Tommy John surgery or anything like that. In fact the blisters might have been the best thing for him because it cut down his innings pitched because we all know how McKeon loves to just ignore pitch counts and have the kids throw, throw, throw.

What's the difference with Johnson pitching in Montreal and Beckett pitching in FL? Both guys pitched on some bad teams (Beckett was on a 1 winning team) but still Johnson hadn't won over 40 games until he was 30 years old. While Beckett has over 40 wins at 25 years old. Beckett has only won more than 9 games once, however the kid is 25 years old and is a stud! He's best years are ahead of him. If he was 30 years old then you'd be right but again his best years are ahead of him. How many times in baseball does a team trade and get a 25 year old ace who has already proven his a big winner?

And your statement about being on a different team with a different uniform is stupid. Ortiz was always hurt in Minnesota due to the turf he played on yet in Boston he's been healthy and put up big numbers.

As for the parade.... Boston is hoping to have another one real soon, that's why they went out and traded to get Beckett. After all the last parade was in 2004 ;)

Ray Finkle
11-23-2005, 02:49 PM
Getting out of Monteral and Seattle helped.

And getting out of Florida won't help Beckett? You're totally burying the guy because he's on the Red Sox now. If the Red Sox traded for Johnson back when he was on Seattle you'd be burying him too.

Again the difference Beckett is 25 years old. And a proven winner in big spots.

Ray Finkle
11-23-2005, 02:51 PM
Guess what Hanley and Anibel have done in the majors, nothing. For all we know those 2 guys may be the 2nd coming of Tim Naehring and Brian Rose. I do think keeping Wang was a good deal for you. But other than Wang, Duncan and Hughes, your other top prospects are decent at best (Melkey, Henn, Garcia)...

HEY! Please lay off Tim Naehring, he's my all time favorite player. I wish he was still playing with them. Great guy. ;)

Ray Finkle
11-23-2005, 02:54 PM
Nobody even knew or mentioned Cano or Wang last year as "top prospects". Those "prospects" ratings are way overrated.

No one knew who Wang was but the Yankees were trying to do everything last year to trade Cano for anything at the trading deadline yet no one wanted him because they thought he was an overrated prospect. The Yankees got lucky in that aspect that no one thought he was any good. Which goes to show you how not even some scouts can judge talent.

Ray Finkle
11-23-2005, 02:57 PM
Then how do you know that giving up Hanley and Anibal for Beckett is a bad trade. Maybe those 2 guys are the worst 2 prospects we have and we have just been hyping them all these years to trade them..

If Hanley was still with the Red Sox he'd be the 4th best prospect we had (behind Papelbon, Lester and Hansen) and best hitting prospect. Anibal is the Sox 4th best pitching prospect behind Papelbon, Lester and Hansen. Hanley before the 2005 season was the Sox #1 prospect and apparently if Hanley was on the Sox in 2006 he'd be ranked #3 (at highest) due to his bad season in Double A.

Good point about hyping up prospects though every team does it. I'm sure when people like Hall of Famer Gammons mentions Hanley in his column every other week didn't hurt either.

MikeO
11-23-2005, 05:45 PM
Then how do you know that giving up Hanley and Anibal for Beckett is a bad trade.
I never said it waas a bad trade! WHERE DID I EVER SAY THAT! Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I just said Beckett isn't a superstar pitcher. He had one great world series in 2003 and didn't do anything before that or since. It's a good trade for Boston but if you think Beckett is a FRONTLINE pitcher your nuts. He is a solid #2 or #3 starter in Boston. And I think he will have trouble adjusting to the AL

MikeO
11-23-2005, 05:46 PM
Yankee fans talking about "buying" teams.... :lol:

PRICELESS!

I got no problem with buying a champinoship. SOME of you seem to think the Yanks are the ONLY ones that do it though. :shakeno: Please..

MikeO
11-23-2005, 05:48 PM
And getting out of Florida won't help Beckett? You're totally burying the guy because he's on the Red Sox now. If the Red Sox traded for Johnson back when he was on Seattle you'd be burying him too.



When did Monteral and Seattle win a world series :shakeno:

PressCoverage
11-23-2005, 11:47 PM
I just said Beckett isn't a superstar pitcher. He had one great world series in 2003 and didn't do anything before that or since. It's a good trade for Boston but if you think Beckett is a FRONTLINE pitcher your nuts. He is a solid #2 or #3 starter in Boston. And I think he will have trouble adjusting to the AL

didn't do anything? he's a career sub 3.5 ERA starter... who won 15 games last year ... he has electric stuff, is a bulldog, and owned the yankees...

please try not to allow your yankee bias to suggest he "hasn't done anything since"... ;)

MikeO
11-23-2005, 11:59 PM
didn't do anything? he's a career sub 3.5 ERA starter... who won 15 games last year ... he has electric stuff, is a bulldog, and owned the yankees...

please try not to allow your yankee bias to suggest he "hasn't done anything since"... ;)

has only won more than 9 games ONCE in a season. Always injured. Blister problems. Shoulder issues. I'm not sold on the guy as a long term big-time pitcher. I put him in that same group as Clement and Miller. Good solid guys, but not a frontline starting pitcher.

Section126
11-24-2005, 12:17 AM
has only won more than 9 games ONCE in a season. Always injured. Blister problems. Shoulder issues. I'm not sold on the guy as a long term big-time pitcher. I put him in that same group as Clement and Miller. Good solid guys, but not a frontline starting pitcher.

Okay....you don't know much about baseball.

pssst....he would be the Yankees ace.....cough...cough...


Beckett is a horse....well...you will see...he will probably beat the Yankees 5 times next year on his way to a 18-6 3.28 era year....

MikeO
11-24-2005, 01:10 AM
Okay....you don't know much about baseball.

pssst....he would be the Yankees ace.....cough...cough...


Beckett is a horse....well...you will see...he will probably beat the Yankees 5 times next year on his way to a 18-6 3.28 era year....

If he goes 18-6 in the AL with an era of 3.28 (remember DH in the AL) then YES he is a horse. Should win the CY YOUNG and is the 2nd coming of Roger Clemens in Boston. I would admit I was dead wrong.

I don't see that. I see him as a 13-9 pitcher with an ERA of 4.25 or so in Boston at least his first year. He will miss a few starts with minor injuries. I think in a couple years he could improve off of those numbers and get better but it might be a rocky start in the AL at first.

Even without Manny he will get a ton of run support in Boston so there are no excuses.

PressCoverage
11-24-2005, 01:49 AM
we haven't bought any titles, the latest dynasty was built from w/in. An example of a tam buying a Championship would be the 1997 Florida marlins.

oh, i'm sorry... so then from just your 98 team alone, Chili Davis, Tim Raines, Darryl Strawberry, Chad Curtis, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Luis Sojo, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Joe Girardi, David Wells, Mike Stanton, Jeff Nelson, David Cone, Graeme Lloyd, Hideki Irubu, Orlando Hernandez were all Yankee draft picks... My mistake...

No, you guys didn't outspend everyone for foreign imports Irubu nor Hernandez... No, Cone nor Wells had no other offers....

You know, nyjunc, in a long line of assanine posts, suggesting the New York Yankees have never outspent the entire league in an attempt to gain an enormous edge really takes the cake... It's the Yankees who have built up the arms race to the current state of baseball... Just like they trumped everyone in the 20s, and just like they trumped everyone in the 50s (it is believed in many circles they paid the KC Athletics to accept four bums in a trade for Roger Maris)... and 70s... ((((((after pitching phenomenon Catfish Hunter was released from his Oakland A's contract in 1974, the Yankees paid him the unheard-of salary of $2.85 million for four years. The unparalleled deal raised the bar for competitive contracts and set an unwanted precedent that would echo across both leagues for years to come... oh, and then there was Reggie Jackson)))))... If baseball was an even playing field for the entire league, from its inception, it is doubtful you guys would have half your titles... Certainly not all of your recent four...

You have an owner who was banned from baseball for "life," yet who was re-instated three years later... Gee, it's too bad Pete Rose didn't have that kind of money... That doesn't even include his 2-year suspension in the 70s... George was making illegal contributions to the Nixon administration? what a moron... And let's not forget the team's $93 million dollar "deal" with Addidas, which got him unanimously voted off the Baseball's executive council's ruling body. .... Yeah, the word "slimeball" comes to mind...

If anyone accuses the Yankees of "buying" their championships, their fans argue that Jeter, B Williams, Pettitte, Soriano, Rivera, and Posada are all home-grown talent. Then, they hope that nobody notices that this represents only 6 out of 25 players in 2000, and hope they don't bring up Clemens, Mussina, Hitchcock, Witasik, Wohlers, Stanton, Martinez, Sojo, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Brosius, Justice, Lilly and more.

Has there ever been an elite free agent the past 15 years the Yankees weren't rumored to be "close to a deal" or "inquiring about?" Please... They are a team of mercenaries... Only recently have other teams played their game and tried to keep up with spending... And they still fall far far behind in payroll.... Please don't mention past Orioles or Dodgers teams' payrolls back then... You needed Jeffrey Maier to get past the O's, and the Dodgers were inept...

I'll capitulate on some points with you... But suggesting the Yankees have never set the standard on buying championships? Give us all a break, would you please?... And Tony Soprano really is in the waste management business...

:jt0323:

Ray Finkle
11-24-2005, 02:37 AM
When did Monteral and Seattle win a world series :shakeno:

They didn't however RJ did go to the playoffs in 1995 with Seattle, it's not like Johnson was always on losing teams. So was Beckett minus the World Series year.

Saying that it didn't matter that Johnson didn't win over 15 games until he was much older than Beckett because he was on bad teams and then blasting Beckett and saying he's overrated because he only one over 9 games once is silly because his team won a World Series once. That doesn't make sense. What about the other 4 years Beckett was with FL? Did they go to the playoffs? No. So Beckett, like Johnson, has been on some bad teams as well. And like Johnson, you have to think that on a good team with his home stadium sold out every game he pitches, Beckett will win more an 9 games in a season.

Ray Finkle
11-24-2005, 02:40 AM
has only won more than 9 games ONCE in a season. Always injured. Blister problems. Shoulder issues. I'm not sold on the guy as a long term big-time pitcher. I put him in that same group as Clement and Miller. Good solid guys, but not a frontline starting pitcher.

Same group as Clement and Miller? Come on get serious here. Put your feelings of the Red Sox aside. Beckett is no where near Clement or Miller. He's an ace. He's 25 years old and is a proven winner in big games and big situations. Let's not get crazy, I'd lay off the Thanksgiving alocholic egg nog or I were you.

FaninPatsyLand
11-25-2005, 02:14 AM
Guillermo Mota really came out of nowhere being involved in this deal...

GreenMonster
11-25-2005, 03:00 AM
Guillermo Mota really came out of nowhere being involved in this deal...

Totally surprised by this also.. Looks to me like another low risk, high reward move if it works.. I always like Mota, but the guy has really only had 2 good years.

Ray Finkle
11-25-2005, 03:10 AM
Wow even better deal. If only the Sox would give up Trot Nixon and Matt Clement maybe the Marlins would have thrown in Willis and Miggy Cabrerra.

If the Sox can trade Wells to SD for bullpen help and IF the rumored trade Manny to the Angels for Garret Anderson, Scott Shields and Ervin Santana then I'd really really like the bullpen and pitching staff.

unifiedtheory
11-25-2005, 03:40 AM
Wow even better deal. If only the Sox would give up Trot Nixon and Matt Clement maybe the Marlins would have thrown in Willis and Miggy Cabrerra.

If the Sox can trade Wells to SD for bullpen help and IF the rumored trade Manny to the Angels for Garret Anderson, Scott Shields and Ervin Santana then I'd really really like the bullpen and pitching staff.

Are the Angels really considering that?

Wow...I hope they do it. Shields is a horse, Anderson can still play a little and Santana has a really live arm.

Get them out of the West.:evil:

RWhitney014
11-25-2005, 11:10 AM
Sorry, guys, but Mota sucks. He keeps his fastball up and is far too hesitant to throw his changeup. I'm glad we got rid of him. And that Harvey Garcia has a live arm.

GreenMonster
11-25-2005, 11:49 AM
Sorry, guys, but Mota sucks. He keeps his fastball up and is far too hesitant to throw his changeup. I'm glad we got rid of him. And that Harvey Garcia has a live arm.

Mota may be a bit overrated but he is still decent if he can regain his 2000-2002 form. I would much rather seen this guy trot out of the Pen this year then some of the scrubs we sent to the mound last year./.

nyjunc
11-25-2005, 12:49 PM
oh, i'm sorry... so then from just your 98 team alone, Chili Davis, Tim Raines, Darryl Strawberry, Chad Curtis, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Luis Sojo, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Joe Girardi, David Wells, Mike Stanton, Jeff Nelson, David Cone, Graeme Lloyd, Hideki Irubu, Orlando Hernandez were all Yankee draft picks... My mistake...

Let's take this from the top.

-Chili Davis: The Yanks tried to trade for him in 1997 and offered Jorge Posada, the Royals turned them down. He was not a major FA that was coveted by a ton of teams and just outbid by the yanks. Any team could have had him. The yanks signed him to a deal where he made less than a $mil more than he was in KC.

-Tim Raines: A minor deal as Raines was not a coveted player and was heading into the twilight of his career. In '95 playing for the ChiSox he made $3.7 mil, as a Yanke in '96 he made $2.1 mil.

-Strawberry: yet another player nobody wanted and everyone could have had.

-Chad Curtis: Acquired in 1997 for David Weathers who was a big part of our '96 Cahmpionship. Once again, another player anyone could have had. Made a whopping $3 mil in 2 1/2 years w/ the yanks. Yep another bought player.

-Tino martinez- Traded for our top prospect Russell Davis and a quality LH pitcher in Sterling Hitchcock(a future LCS MVP) so he wasn't acquired for nothing, this wasn't a straight salary dump.

-Paul O'Neill: was a PLATOON player in Cincy and we gave up an ALL-STAR in Roberto Kelly to get him, a young All-Star by the way.

-Luis Sojo: Are you kidding me? :lol: Yanks got him off waivers, there was a major battle to get him :lol:

-Chuck Knoblauch: Gave up not 1 but TWO All-Stars to get him. Christian Guzman & Eric Milton plus 2 other players. Minny got the bst of that deal as Chuck was never a great player for us.

-Scott brosius: Did you even know who Scott Brosius was before he was a Yankee? Another guy no one wanted and was a .203 hitter the year before we got him.

-Joe Girardi: yet another low cost FA anyone could have had.

-david Wells: Was the ONLY major FA the Yanks signed on that team and the only other major FA we had on any of those teams was Jimym Key and Key was on 1 title team in '96 and Wells just 1 title team in '98.

-Mike Stanton: Took a pay CUT to come to the Yanks. made $1.7 mil in '96 w/ Bos, made 1.6 mil w/ the Yanks in '97.

-Nelson: acquired in Tino deal and was a throw in, a player anyone could have had.

-David Cone- Gave up 3 bit time prospects, not the yanks fault they didn't pan out.

-Grame lloyd: gave up Gerald Williams, a player teams were trying to trade for for years and we wouldn't give up, and some guy named Bob Wickman.

-Irabu: was a FA we singed but was not a contributor.

-Hernandez: Int's FA, others could have signed him. The yanks took a major risk especially after the Irabu signing was a dud. Made $750,000 in '98, don't you think other tams could have afforded that?



If anyone accuses the Yankees of "buying" their championships, their fans argue that Jeter, B Williams, Pettitte, Soriano, Rivera, and Posada are all home-grown talent.

the core of the LATEST dynasty was mnostly homegrown(outside of O'Neill), then we traded away good prospects and good players to get players who were a better fit for us and added very few high salaried FAs. As usual you are wrong again.


Has there ever been an elite free agent the past 15 years the Yankees weren't rumored to be "close to a deal" or "inquiring about?" Please.

Actually we did that in the 80s and are doing it now but in the 90s we didn't go after every FA, we made wise moves. We gave up big time prospects to get certian palyers and signed others to low salary deals and sprinkled them in w/ the core of homegrown talent which is why we won. The major reason we haven't won since 200 is b/c we have TRIED to buy Championships but it has not worked.


Please don't mention past Orioles or Dodgers teams' payrolls back then... You needed Jeffrey Maier to get past the O's, and the Dodgers were inept...

We needed jeffrey maier to get by the O's? :lol: Last I checked we won 4 games to 1 not 4 games to 3 and we blew game 2 when mariano wasn't available b/c he had pitched 2 innings in game 1. In game 2 we had a 3-2 lead in the 7th where Mo normally would have pitched the 7th and 8th and the Maier play probaby would have beena double anyway and we'd have had the tying run on 2nd. regardless of that we would have won the series.

I give you credit, at least you tried. You were unaware of circumstances of the acquisitions but now you know and now you know we didn't buy Championships in those years.

FaninPatsyLand
11-25-2005, 12:50 PM
Sorry, guys, but Mota sucks. He keeps his fastball up and is far too hesitant to throw his changeup. I'm glad we got rid of him. And that Harvey Garcia has a live arm.

We thought that about Chad Fox early in 2003. He was a complete disaster for us. All it took was a change of scenery and he was an integral part of your World Series run.

These bullpen guys are usually bust or boom, and results change every year. Plus like GreenMonster said, he's better than some of the bums we had coming out of the pen the last couple of years.

RWhitney014
11-25-2005, 02:07 PM
Let's take this from the top.

-Chili Davis: The Yanks tried to trade for him in 1997 and offered Jorge Posada, the Royals turned them down. He was not a major FA that was coveted by a ton of teams and just outbid by the yanks. Any team could have had him. The yanks signed him to a deal where he made less than a $mil more than he was in KC.

-Tim Raines: A minor deal as Raines was not a coveted player and was heading into the twilight of his career. In '95 playing for the ChiSox he made $3.7 mil, as a Yanke in '96 he made $2.1 mil.

-Strawberry: yet another player nobody wanted and everyone could have had.

-Chad Curtis: Acquired in 1997 for David Weathers who was a big part of our '96 Cahmpionship. Once again, another player anyone could have had. Made a whopping $3 mil in 2 1/2 years w/ the yanks. Yep another bought player.

-Tino martinez- Traded for our top prospect Russell Davis and a quality LH pitcher in Sterling Hitchcock(a future LCS MVP) so he wasn't acquired for nothing, this wasn't a straight salary dump.

-Paul O'Neill: was a PLATOON player in Cincy and we gave up an ALL-STAR in Roberto Kelly to get him, a young All-Star by the way.

-Luis Sojo: Are you kidding me? :lol: Yanks got him off waivers, there was a major battle to get him :lol:

-Chuck Knoblauch: Gave up not 1 but TWO All-Stars to get him. Christian Guzman & Eric Milton plus 2 other players. Minny got the bst of that deal as Chuck was never a great player for us.

-Scott brosius: Did you even know who Scott Brosius was before he was a Yankee? Another guy no one wanted and was a .203 hitter the year before we got him.

-Joe Girardi: yet another low cost FA anyone could have had.

-david Wells: Was the ONLY major FA the Yanks signed on that team and the only other major FA we had on any of those teams was Jimym Key and Key was on 1 title team in '96 and Wells just 1 title team in '98.

-Mike Stanton: Took a pay CUT to come to the Yanks. made $1.7 mil in '96 w/ Bos, made 1.6 mil w/ the Yanks in '97.

-Nelson: acquired in Tino deal and was a throw in, a player anyone could have had.

-David Cone- Gave up 3 bit time prospects, not the yanks fault they didn't pan out.

-Grame lloyd: gave up Gerald Williams, a player teams were trying to trade for for years and we wouldn't give up, and some guy named Bob Wickman.

-Irabu: was a FA we singed but was not a contributor.

-Hernandez: Int's FA, others could have signed him. The yanks took a major risk especially after the Irabu signing was a dud. Made $750,000 in '98, don't you think other tams could have afforded that?




the core of the LATEST dynasty was mnostly homegrown(outside of O'Neill), then we traded away good prospects and good players to get players who were a better fit for us and added very few high salaried FAs. As usual you are wrong again.



Actually we did that in the 80s and are doing it now but in the 90s we didn't go after every FA, we made wise moves. We gave up big time prospects to get certian palyers and signed others to low salary deals and sprinkled them in w/ the core of homegrown talent which is why we won. The major reason we haven't won since 200 is b/c we have TRIED to buy Championships but it has not worked.



We needed jeffrey maier to get by the O's? :lol: Last I checked we won 4 games to 1 not 4 games to 3 and we blew game 2 when mariano wasn't available b/c he had pitched 2 innings in game 1. In game 2 we had a 3-2 lead in the 7th where Mo normally would have pitched the 7th and 8th and the Maier play probaby would have beena double anyway and we'd have had the tying run on 2nd. regardless of that we would have won the series.

I give you credit, at least you tried. You were unaware of circumstances of the acquisitions but now you know and now you know we didn't buy Championships in those years.

That's all good and well, but homegrown players are homegrown players, and none of those guys were, regardless of how they were acquired or how well they did.

RWhitney014
11-25-2005, 02:08 PM
We thought that about Chad Fox early in 2003. He was a complete disaster for us. All it took was a change of scenery and he was an integral part of your World Series run.

These bullpen guys are usually bust or boom, and results change every year. Plus like GreenMonster said, he's better than some of the bums we had coming out of the pen the last couple of years.

He was relegated to 5th inning and mop up duty last season, and McKeon rode guys like Nate Bump and Matt Perisho far, far too long. Everybody here lost complete faith in him, and everyone here is glad that he's gone because he whined when he lost his closer's job to Todd Jones last year, a guy who had 40 saves.

PressCoverage
11-25-2005, 02:21 PM
Let's take this from the top.

-Chili Davis: The Yanks tried to trade for him in 1997 and offered Jorge Posada, the Royals turned them down. He was not a major FA that was coveted by a ton of teams and just outbid by the yanks. Any team could have had him. The yanks signed him to a deal where he made less than a $mil more than he was in KC.

-Tim Raines: A minor deal as Raines was not a coveted player and was heading into the twilight of his career. In '95 playing for the ChiSox he made $3.7 mil, as a Yanke in '96 he made $2.1 mil.

-Strawberry: yet another player nobody wanted and everyone could have had.

-Chad Curtis: Acquired in 1997 for David Weathers who was a big part of our '96 Cahmpionship. Once again, another player anyone could have had. Made a whopping $3 mil in 2 1/2 years w/ the yanks. Yep another bought player.

-Tino martinez- Traded for our top prospect Russell Davis and a quality LH pitcher in Sterling Hitchcock(a future LCS MVP) so he wasn't acquired for nothing, this wasn't a straight salary dump.

-Paul O'Neill: was a PLATOON player in Cincy and we gave up an ALL-STAR in Roberto Kelly to get him, a young All-Star by the way.

-Luis Sojo: Are you kidding me? :lol: Yanks got him off waivers, there was a major battle to get him :lol:

-Chuck Knoblauch: Gave up not 1 but TWO All-Stars to get him. Christian Guzman & Eric Milton plus 2 other players. Minny got the bst of that deal as Chuck was never a great player for us.

-Scott brosius: Did you even know who Scott Brosius was before he was a Yankee? Another guy no one wanted and was a .203 hitter the year before we got him.

-Joe Girardi: yet another low cost FA anyone could have had.

-david Wells: Was the ONLY major FA the Yanks signed on that team and the only other major FA we had on any of those teams was Jimym Key and Key was on 1 title team in '96 and Wells just 1 title team in '98.

-Mike Stanton: Took a pay CUT to come to the Yanks. made $1.7 mil in '96 w/ Bos, made 1.6 mil w/ the Yanks in '97.

-Nelson: acquired in Tino deal and was a throw in, a player anyone could have had.

-David Cone- Gave up 3 bit time prospects, not the yanks fault they didn't pan out.

-Grame lloyd: gave up Gerald Williams, a player teams were trying to trade for for years and we wouldn't give up, and some guy named Bob Wickman.

-Irabu: was a FA we singed but was not a contributor.

-Hernandez: Int's FA, others could have signed him. The yanks took a major risk especially after the Irabu signing was a dud. Made $750,000 in '98, don't you think other tams could have afforded that?




the core of the LATEST dynasty was mnostly homegrown(outside of O'Neill), then we traded away good prospects and good players to get players who were a better fit for us and added very few high salaried FAs. As usual you are wrong again.



Actually we did that in the 80s and are doing it now but in the 90s we didn't go after every FA, we made wise moves. We gave up big time prospects to get certian palyers and signed others to low salary deals and sprinkled them in w/ the core of homegrown talent which is why we won. The major reason we haven't won since 200 is b/c we have TRIED to buy Championships but it has not worked.



We needed jeffrey maier to get by the O's? :lol: Last I checked we won 4 games to 1 not 4 games to 3 and we blew game 2 when mariano wasn't available b/c he had pitched 2 innings in game 1. In game 2 we had a 3-2 lead in the 7th where Mo normally would have pitched the 7th and 8th and the Maier play probaby would have beena double anyway and we'd have had the tying run on 2nd. regardless of that we would have won the series.

I give you credit, at least you tried. You were unaware of circumstances of the acquisitions but now you know and now you know we didn't buy Championships in those years.

a typical post by you.. breaking everything down, with a slant to each point you try to make, then wrapped in a boquet of "fact" and a smarmy comment at the end like "now you know"... :sleep:

despite your repetition smoke screen, this isn't about how many prospects the Yankees gave up, nor the unprovable theory that "any team could have had him"... it's about the total team salary given up, and that 76% of your roster came from somewhere else ... and that was just the beginning of your team's skyrocketing payroll.... they lapped the field from '99 onward in team salary, and you know it ... as usual, you're slanting again to avoid the fact that your favorite baseball team has always used money and influence to buy its own success...

"In 1999, however, the Yankees began buying championships. Their offseason spending skyrocketed and their 1999 midseason shopping spree was legendary.. clubs like Oakland, Seattle, Houston and Atlanta would be winning the championships if there was anything close to payroll equity among Major League Baseball teams. For example, if the Mariners had the Yankee budget, they may very well have been able to keep Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr and Alex Rodriguez. With those three players in the fold (or even two in the fold), it would have been very difficult for New York to beat Seattle in 1999 and 2000. The Yankees barely squeezed by the Oakland A's - a team with a payroll one-third of New York's - in the first round of the playoffs in 2000 and 2001. If the Red Sox had an extra $50 million to spend in 2003, Boston would not have lost to New York in the ALCS no matter what foolishness Grady Little provided..."

http://www.bostonsportshub.com/mlbpayroll.htm

the original argument was that the Yankees try to buy championships... for which you've already admitted and capitulated... it's a tactic that won them titles into the 70s, and helped put them in ruin for 18 glorious years (in addition to your soulless owner's criminal activities and banishments)... here's hoping their latest downswing in salary/prospect exhaustion lasts another 18 years... but even by then, your control freak owner won't be around any longer, with no shady shoe deals or cable giant money to throw at his obsession...

the yankees remind me of that sad, dumb, rich guy at the poker table... playing a pair of aces and betting and betting and betting, doubling his loss from the previous hand, and figuring he can eventually just buy the pot...

Ray Finkle
11-25-2005, 03:03 PM
Are the Angels really considering that?

Wow...I hope they do it. Shields is a horse, Anderson can still play a little and Santana has a really live arm.

Get them out of the West.:evil:

That's the rumor I'm hearing, so who knows. It's the best trade rumor I've heard for Manny so as a Red Sox fan if the Sox are going to trade Manny I'd do that deal.

Ray Finkle
11-25-2005, 03:05 PM
Sorry, guys, but Mota sucks. He keeps his fastball up and is far too hesitant to throw his changeup. I'm glad we got rid of him. And that Harvey Garcia has a live arm.

Mota is still better than anything we had last year. Also it is worth noting that Mota had some of his best years in LA when Dave Wallace was pitching coach.

I'd trade Mota for Harvey Garcia any day. It's worth the risk.

DonShula84
11-25-2005, 03:26 PM
Wow even better deal. If only the Sox would give up Trot Nixon and Matt Clement maybe the Marlins would have thrown in Willis and Miggy Cabrerra.

If the Sox can trade Wells to SD for bullpen help and IF the rumored trade Manny to the Angels for Garret Anderson, Scott Shields and Ervin Santana then I'd really really like the bullpen and pitching staff.

I really cant see that trade happening.

nyjunc
11-25-2005, 06:13 PM
That's all good and well, but homegrown players are homegrown players, and none of those guys were, regardless of how they were acquired or how well they did.

Buying Championships is getting players on salary dumps from other teams for basically nothing and buying a bunch of high priced FA's, the Yankees did NOT do that during the latest dynasty.


a typical post by you.. breaking everything down, with a slant to each point you try to make, then wrapped in a boquet of "fact" and a smarmy comment at the end like "now you know"...

And typical BS from my favorite fan PC! Always following me around and commenting on my posts then when you are told the real story you still ignore the facts.


So b/c a quote from bostonsportshub.com says the Yanks bought titles then it's fact? :lol:

Let's break this down.


In 1999, however, the Yankees began buying championships. Their offseason spending skyrocketed and their 1999 midseason shopping spree was legendary.. clubs like Oakland, Seattle, Houston and Atlanta would be winning the championships if there was anything close to payroll equity among Major League Baseball teams

How do you explain the Padres? the marlins? the Angels of '02? They were all lower salary teams that made or won the World Series. Championships are won w/ good decisions not w/ money. If so then the Yankees would have even more and teams like bal, LAD, NYM, Bos would have a ton of WS apperances in the lst decade at the least.

In 1996 we had a payroll of about $4 mil more than Atl. Are you telling me that $4 mil was the difference in the WS?

Houston made the postseason in 1998 and LOST to San Diego another small payroll team.


For example, if the Mariners had the Yankee budget, they may very well have been able to keep Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr and Alex Rodriguez. With those three players in the fold (or even two in the fold), it would have been very difficult for New York to beat Seattle in 1999 and 2000.

Let's see, those 3 played together at their peaks in 1997 and couldn't even win a playoff series. Griffey wound up getting hurt year after year and ARod has not exactly been mr. Clutch so for someone to say that it is typical jealous Yankee hatred.


The Yankees barely squeezed by the Oakland A's - a team with a payroll one-third of New York's - in the first round of the playoffs in 2000 and 2001.

And we lost to Anaheim in '02 and had a $60 mil advantage on them and lost to Fla in '03 and had over a $100 mill edge. The bottom line is high payroll teams can be beat, you may have to work harder and don't have the luxury to make as many mistakes but oak not winning a playoff series is not an excuse b/c of payroll. What was Oak's excuse when they lost to Minnesota?


If the Red Sox had an extra $50 million to spend in 2003, Boston would not have lost to New York in the ALCS no matter what foolishness Grady Little provided..."

Is that a fact? i wonder if this Red Sox fan acknowledges that his team had a huge payroll advantage over Oak & Ana in '03 '04 to even play the Yanks? and I wonder if he thinks Boston bought a WS since they had a $44 mil edge over SL in the WS in 2004?


the original argument was that the Yankees try to buy championships... for which you've already admitted and capitulated... it's a tactic that won them titles into the 70s, and helped put them in ruin for 18 glorious years (in addition to your soulless owner's criminal activities and banishments)... here's hoping their latest downswing in salary/prospect exhaustion lasts another 18 years... but even by then, your control freak owner won't be around any longer, with no shady shoe deals or cable giant money to throw at his obsession...

Ahh the jealousy of the Yankee hater, I love it! I am so grateful to be a fan of the greatest franchise in the history of American sports.

unifiedtheory
11-25-2005, 11:30 PM
Let's take this from the top.



-Scott brosius: Did you even know who Scott Brosius was before he was a Yankee? Another guy no one wanted and was a .203 hitter the year before we got him.



Not to defend a Yankee fan that seems to be doing well on his own but, Brosius was traded for Kenny Rogers in a classic "2 guys who needed a change of scenery" deal.

Rogers HAD to get out of New York and Brosius was a liability in Oakland. The A's had a guy named Chavez who they needed to get in the lineup more.

Brosius lost it for a year at the plate. He was always a great defensive third baseman though, even in his .203 year.

Clark Kent
11-25-2005, 11:48 PM
What's not to like about this deal? We gave up Hanley Ramirez (who many have soured on due to his hitting- don't get me wrong the kid can play) and our 3rd or 4th best pitching prospect (behind Papelbon, Lester and Hansen) in Anibal Sanchez for a proven big game 25 year old pitcher (Josh Beckett)and a gold glove 3rd/1st baseman (Mike Lowell) who the Sox might move to Minnesota for Scott Baker and J.C. Romero and possibly Kyle Loshe.Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hansen get his *** owned in AA? Major problems with his slider and such? No off-spead pitches, etc... Or did I hear wrong?

Ray Finkle
11-26-2005, 12:55 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hansen get his *** owned in AA? Major problems with his slider and such? No off-spead pitches, etc... Or did I hear wrong?

No Hansen was basically untouchable in A and AA. I believe he didn't even let up a run in either league. He had problems with his slider in the big leagues mainly because he still had a tired arm. He has a GREAT slider, however Dave Wallace has come out and said that he wants Hansen to learn a 3rd pitch (a change up I believe). So Hansen is expected to start the year in AAA.

I think you're thinking of Delcarmen playing in the big leagues. He didn't have a good 2nd or 3rd pitch and got hit hard at times. Also it didn't help that Francoma brought him into tough spots for a struggling youngster and didn't use him in spots where the Sox were up by a ton or down by a ton. He'll also work on a 2nd and 3rd pitch and start in AAA.

PressCoverage
11-26-2005, 04:21 AM
Buying Championships is getting players on salary dumps from other teams for basically nothing and buying a bunch of high priced FA's, the Yankees did NOT do that during the latest dynasty.



And typical BS from my favorite fan PC! Always following me around and commenting on my posts then when you are told the real story you still ignore the facts.


So b/c a quote from bostonsportshub.com says the Yanks bought titles then it's fact? :lol:

Let's break this down.



How do you explain the Padres? the marlins? the Angels of '02? They were all lower salary teams that made or won the World Series. Championships are won w/ good decisions not w/ money. If so then the Yankees would have even more and teams like bal, LAD, NYM, Bos would have a ton of WS apperances in the lst decade at the least.

In 1996 we had a payroll of about $4 mil more than Atl. Are you telling me that $4 mil was the difference in the WS?

Houston made the postseason in 1998 and LOST to San Diego another small payroll team.



Let's see, those 3 played together at their peaks in 1997 and couldn't even win a playoff series. Griffey wound up getting hurt year after year and ARod has not exactly been mr. Clutch so for someone to say that it is typical jealous Yankee hatred.



And we lost to Anaheim in '02 and had a $60 mil advantage on them and lost to Fla in '03 and had over a $100 mill edge. The bottom line is high payroll teams can be beat, you may have to work harder and don't have the luxury to make as many mistakes but oak not winning a playoff series is not an excuse b/c of payroll. What was Oak's excuse when they lost to Minnesota?



Is that a fact? i wonder if this Red Sox fan acknowledges that his team had a huge payroll advantage over Oak & Ana in '03 '04 to even play the Yanks? and I wonder if he thinks Boston bought a WS since they had a $44 mil edge over SL in the WS in 2004?

Ahh the jealousy of the Yankee hater, I love it! I am so grateful to be a fan of the greatest franchise in the history of American sports.

you continue to rest your argument on 1998... the last year you weren't light years ahead of the entire league in team salary.... break down 99 and '00 for us, would you?? ... as for pointing the finger at Boston's escalating payroll, that's so typical of a Yankee fan... yes, they've finally capitulated that they HAVE to at least try to keep up and spend to compete -- a climate that YOUR team started.... But they're still some $50 million behind.. Doing more with less... far less...

as for dismissing the theory that money ensures championships based on your team's colossal failures the past 5 years... you're stumbling all over yourself and you don't even see it.... the debate isn't about the evil empire succeeding toward that ultimate goal or not; the debate is about their blatant annual ATTEMPT to do so... which you've admitted....

the point in all of this is as follows, something Yankee fans never seem to acknowledge: teams with enormous pay rolls always have a chance; teams with average or small payrolls almost NEVER have a chance... it's a slanted playing field... just like your argument...

but again, it's not that we hate the yankee players, per se... it's really about the aura created by their know-it-all fans... and i don't follow you around... you just happen to be everywhere, adding your negative two cents to everything south florida... :sleep:

nyjunc
11-26-2005, 10:57 AM
you continue to rest your argument on 1998... the last year you weren't light years ahead of the entire league in team salary....

Let's take all 4 titles then.

1996: Led by less than $3 1/2 mil over Bal.
1998: TRAILED Baltimore by over $7 mil.
1999: Led by less than $7 mil over Tex.
2000: Led by $ 2 1/2 Mil over LAD.

The only year we were more than $3.5 mil over the 2nd highest team was 1999, is over $7 mil "light years" ahead? B/c if so then we were "light years" behind" in 1998 the year we set the record for most all time wins(including postseason).

Click the link then change the year to any of the 4 years you want:

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=1996


the debate isn't about the evil empire succeeding toward that ultimate goal or not; the debate is about their blatant annual ATTEMPT to do so.

of course it is about succeeding, this all came about when a Yankee hater said we "bought" Champiosnhips so obviously it's about succeeding. I showed that we did not but once again I agree we have TRIED the last few years w/ no success.


teams with enormous pay rolls always have a chance; teams with average or small payrolls almost NEVER have a chance...

Really? Why did oak make the playoffs 4 straight years? why did Minny make it 3 straight years? why did SD make the WS? why did Ana win the WS? why did Fla win the WS('03 version) and why have teams like the Mets, Dodgers, O's and others been so bad? Obviously playing in a larger market and having a higher payroll gives an advantage BUT it does not ensure anything. If a team has the right people making decisions and makes the right decisions then they will win no matter what the payroll is and they always have a chance if they are making the right decisions.