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ArticleNinja
11-26-2005, 06:11 PM
Discuss this article or suffer dire consequences: http://www.finheaven.com/cms/244.html.

RWhitney014
11-26-2005, 06:53 PM
Everything you ever wanted to know or didn't about the Marlins situation.

phunwin
11-26-2005, 09:05 PM
Nice work, Perry!

A couple questions/comments...
1. I didn't realize that Mota was part of the Beckett deal. That seemed to really fly under the radar.
2. Petit will not pitch for the Marlins in 2006 unless there's something very unexpected. He's 20 years old and got shelled in 3 AAA starts last year. He might be a late-season callup, but that's all. Look for an impact in 2007.
3. Hagerstown is a Class A team, not AA. The Mets' AA team is in Binghamton, NY. Do your research...or at least consult with your friendly neighborhood Mets fan. ;)

You raise some excellent points about the viability of a Vegas franchise, and I think the more it's discussed, the more that will come out. Also worth mentioning is the fact that Vegas relies heavily on a transient population; not a lot of "roots" in the community.

Ray Finkle
11-26-2005, 09:42 PM
Good article. You made a lot of interesting points and give some information that I, myself, wasn't aware of. I have to agree with Phunwin I don't think Petit will be on the opening day roster nor do I see Anibal Sanchez there. I think Sanchez is a year or 2 away from hitting the big leagues. I also think that Sanchez had a surgery on his shoulder (Tommy John I think) and their was quiet concern within the Red Sox organization about him and his health especially towards the end of last year when he was shut down with a tired arm. He dominated A ball but struggled a bit in Double A mainly due to his injury. Don't get me wrong when healthy Anibal is a very good pitcher. I've seen him twice pitching and he has a live arm. I like Petit even more than I like Anibal.

As for Hanley, who I also seen played 4 or 5 times, he's got a very good glove and legs however his bat isn't ready for the big leagues. Although the best place to learn how to hit in the big leagues is in the big leagues. The only knock on Hanley was that he was lazy and had a bad work ethic and also loved to read his name in the newspapers. I really do hope both Hanley and Anibal work out for the Marlins.

I know the Red Sox Front Office was very high on Delgado towards the end of the season as he got a lot of outs by ground ball as well as strike out. Harvey Garcia was recently added to the 40 man roster which also shows the Sox were impressed with his stuff in A ball because they were worried he'd be taken in the Rule 5 Draft.

If the Marlins move to Vegas, I'm sure they would need a retractable roof there too due to the heat, like in Arizona. I personally think that Loria is trying to do a powerplay and force Miami to build them a new stadium however I also think he's willing to move the team if needed too.

In my opinion the best place for the Marlins would be Miami with a new field then Vegas. Portland would be the third bet followed by Carolina. I think that having a team in Mexico or Puerto Rico would be a terrible idea mainly because of the lack of wealth in those two areas. If the Marlins can't make money in Miami how can they expect to draw in Mexico or Puerto Rico especially if they charge 35 bucks for a ticket?

MikeO
11-26-2005, 11:42 PM
In my opinion the best place for the Marlins would be Miami with a new field then Vegas.

How can anyone still say this? The franchise has won 2 world series in 7 years and they still can't draw fans. You seriously think a new stadium will change anything??????? THEY WON THE WORLD F'N SERIES TWICE!!!!! People just don't care down there. They won't go to the games. Period. End of story.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 12:05 AM
How can anyone still say this? The franchise has won 2 world series in 7 years and they still can't draw fans. You seriously think a new stadium will change anything??????? THEY WON THE WORLD F'N SERIES TWICE!!!!! People just don't care down there. They won't go to the games. Period. End of story.

I would tend to agree with you, except I've been to games where randomly 40,000 people showed up on a particular night. I wish it was the norm, but it happens every once in a while. I think the TV ratings indicate that people are interested but use a lot of the 5 complaints I listed, and a stadium with a roof would take care of a lot of that.

Phil, one too many As from me for Psomas. That's what happens when you write a huge article and there's no editor...I'm sure you know how difficult it is to edit your own work. Petit tore up AA BINGHAMTON (happy? :lol: ), and Florida hasn't been shy in promoting players from AA lately. Willis, Cabrera, Hermida, Ben Howard, Chris Resop, Randy Messenger, Jason Vargas, Scott Olsen, and Josh Johnson have all come straight from AA with varying success, mostly good, and there's no real reason not to get him acclimated sooner. If we're going to lose, I'd rather lose with Petit or any of the others on the mound as opposed to Ismael Valdez.

Ray, the bad work ethic and laziness for Hanley came directly from seeing his name in the papers. Now, first of all, Florida's writers aren't as hyper, and when he's in the majors, hype ends and numbers count. Simple as that. And I think his bat will catch up to the rest of his game. Once again, I'd rather lose with him there as opposed to Royce Clayton.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 12:32 AM
I guess no one liked/got to the juicy A.J. Burnett news. I outscooped all of South Florida's media on the Cards coming to town, but I can't reveal the source. :wink:

Ray Finkle
11-27-2005, 12:33 AM
How can anyone still say this? The franchise has won 2 world series in 7 years and they still can't draw fans. You seriously think a new stadium will change anything??????? THEY WON THE WORLD F'N SERIES TWICE!!!!! People just don't care down there. They won't go to the games. Period. End of story.

I say this because of a few reasons:

1.) The franchise is still young it's less than 15 years old, many of the big fan base are young as they get older they can go to games on their own. Take Perry for example, he grew up with the Marlins and as he gets older I'm sure he'll continue to go to games on his own. Most of the Marlins core fans are probably his age or younger. Again as the core fans get older they'll attend more games. As the core fans have kids they will become Marlin fans. Building a following for a team is hard to do. Especially considering that FL has been the place for Spring Training for years, the younger people are fans of which ever team practices near them. Hence why people from Tampa are huge Yankee fans. Or why people in Arizona are huge Cub fans.

2.) Building a new stadium = more people going to games. It has helped franchises like Seattle and the Brewers recently. I'm sure that teams with newer stadiums have higher attendance. It did wonders for the Cleveland Indians back in the early 90s who had kids playing (Manny, Thome) as well as veterns (Roberto and Sandy Alomar, Albert Belle, Omar). When the Marlins get a new stadium they'll be just like the Indians with a core of good young players (Hanley, Anibal, Petit, etc.) as well as a core of veterns that have been on the team (Willis, Miggy, etc.).

3.) More people in Miami area than Las Vegas

4.) Most of the people in Vegas are tourists there for gambling and entertainment. It's easy to say that people like me and you would go to a baseball game but would an average person take 3 to 3 and a half hours of the day/night to go to a baseball game? Especially with a wife and family?

5.) If they do build a stadium in Vegas it won't be walking distance away from a hotel or the strip. Do people want to bother with driving there?

I honestly think that the best thing for the Marlins would be to stay and build a new stadium. I know people aren't going to games but you'd be very surprised what a new stadium would do, also because it will be the Marlins they will be able to get more revenue without having to pay Wayne H. for using his place.

Ray Finkle
11-27-2005, 12:36 AM
Ray, the bad work ethic and laziness for Hanley came directly from seeing his name in the papers. Now, first of all, Florida's writers aren't as hyper, and when he's in the majors, hype ends and numbers count. Simple as that. And I think his bat will catch up to the rest of his game. Once again, I'd rather lose with him there as opposed to Royce Clayton.

I agree that I'd rather have Hanley there and go through his ups and downs instead of Clayton or Alex Gonzalez. I LOVE Hanley, I think he's going to be a good player, he brings a lot of energy to the game and he has charisma to put asssses in seats. He's probably the best thing for the Marlins besides the D-Train. He's just a kid that likes to play ball.

I just hope that he gets his head on right because with a little more work he can become great. He just has some issues with his work ethic but again he's still young. He'll be 22 in the end of December so he'll learn in time.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 12:37 AM
Well, both areas have a very mixed population. Transient is the word I've seen used a lot by various parts, but when you have New Yorkers and Midwesterners comprising a lot of the population here, it takes a while to build that base up.

But yeah, I do think South Florida is still a good option if the park is in the right place. South Miami was not the right place. It would have alienated most people north of Fort Lauderdale from going to games, especially during the week. The Orange Bowl is an hour's drive from me on a Saturday...with 5/6 o'clock rush hour traffic on a Wednesday, no one would go that far to see a game.

MikeO
11-27-2005, 12:56 AM
I say this because of a few reasons:

1.) The franchise is still young it's less than 15 years old, many of the big fan base are young as they get older they can go to games on their own. Take Perry for example, he grew up with the Marlins and as he gets older I'm sure he'll continue to go to games on his own. Most of the Marlins core fans are probably his age or younger. Again as the core fans get older they'll attend more games. As the core fans have kids they will become Marlin fans. Building a following for a team is hard to do. Especially considering that FL has been the place for Spring Training for years, the younger people are fans of which ever team practices near them. Hence why people from Tampa are huge Yankee fans. Or why people in Arizona are huge Cub fans.

2.) Building a new stadium = more people going to games. It has helped franchises like Seattle and the Brewers recently. I'm sure that teams with newer stadiums have higher attendance. It did wonders for the Cleveland Indians back in the early 90s who had kids playing (Manny, Thome) as well as veterns (Roberto and Sandy Alomar, Albert Belle, Omar). When the Marlins get a new stadium they'll be just like the Indians with a core of good young players (Hanley, Anibal, Petit, etc.) as well as a core of veterns that have been on the team (Willis, Miggy, etc.).

3.) More people in Miami area than Las Vegas

4.) Most of the people in Vegas are tourists there for gambling and entertainment. It's easy to say that people like me and you would go to a baseball game but would an average person take 3 to 3 and a half hours of the day/night to go to a baseball game? Especially with a wife and family?

5.) If they do build a stadium in Vegas it won't be walking distance away from a hotel or the strip. Do people want to bother with driving there?

I honestly think that the best thing for the Marlins would be to stay and build a new stadium. I know people aren't going to games but you'd be very surprised what a new stadium would do, also because it will be the Marlins they will be able to get more revenue without having to pay Wayne H. for using his place.

They have built 2 new stadiums for the Heat in recent years and people don't even go to those games. The Hurricanes can't draw fans. The Panthers can't. The Heat can't. The DOLPHINSN can't. The Marlins can't, and having 81 home games makes it impossible to turn a profit.

It's over. The Marlins are GONE! They have just sold off every player they have esentially except one or two and they have waved the white flag.

A new stadium in Miami will NOT.......let me say it agian........will NOT draw fans. The problem isn't the stadium. It's the area.

I won't even get into the Vegas part of this because you couldn't be more wrong on that also.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 01:00 AM
They have built 2 new stadiums for the Heat in recent years and people don't even go to those games. The Hurricanes can't draw fans. The Panthers can't. The Heat can't. The DOLPHINSN can't. The Marlins can't, and having 81 home games makes it impossible to turn a profit.

It's over. The Marlins are GONE! They have just sold off every player they have esentially except one or two and they have waved the white flag.

A new stadium in Miami will NOT.......let me say it agian........will NOT draw fans. The problem isn't the stadium. It's the area.

I won't even get into the Vegas part of this because you couldn't be more wrong on that also.

The Heat have virtually sold out every game since Shaq came. Whether people show up or not is a different story, but it doesn't matter.

Ha, reminds me of a Heat game in Cleveland in 2002, before Lebron. Longtime announcer Eric Reid is talking the whole night about how empty the arena is, and towards the end of the game, they announce the attendance as 12,000 or something, "which means that here in Cleveland, they count by twos."

It cracked me up. :lol:

And I couldn't be more wrong on Vegas? I'm interested to hear why.

MikeO
11-27-2005, 01:08 AM
You have 2 major sports leagues (NBA and MLB) fighting tooth and nail to get a franchise in Vegas first. Because each feel the city can only house 1 major sports team. Which is why the NBA ALL STAR game in 2007 is going to be held there. Even though there is no NBA franchise in Vegas.

They know its a tourism city. They know there is no arena in place to house a full time team. Bottom line is their research has told BOTH that if a team is there in that city (for either sport) it would be profitable and draw fans.

They feel that there are enough locals who would support a team on a full time basis, that all they need is a small portion of that "tourism" group to go to games to make the team profitable. And oh yeah.........GAMBLING!!!!! This would be the one place where LEGALLY you could go to a major sporting event (non horse racing), PLACE BETS, then go walk to your seat and watch what you just bet on.

Ray Finkle
11-27-2005, 01:08 AM
EDIT: Nevermind MikeO responded in the middle of this post.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 01:18 AM
You have 2 major sports leagues (NBA and MLB) fighting tooth and nail to get a franchise in Vegas first. Because each feel the city can only house 1 major sports team. Which is why the NBA ALL STAR game in 2007 is going to be held there. Even though there is no NBA franchise in Vegas.

They know its a tourism city. They know there is no arena in place to house a full time team. Bottom line is their research has told BOTH that if a team is there in that city (for either sport) it would be profitable and draw fans.

They feel that there are enough locals who would support a team on a full time basis, that all they need is a small portion of that "tourism" group to go to games to make the team profitable. And oh yeah.........GAMBLING!!!!! This would be the one place where LEGALLY you could go to a major sporting event (non horse racing), PLACE BETS, then go walk to your seat and watch what you just bet on.

I think basketball is a great idea for Vegas. There's precedent that a professional basketball team in a casino can work...the WNBA's Connecticut Sun play in the Mohegan Sun Casino and they draw pretty well for WNBA standards. It would work in Vegas because there's a set amount of time, it could fit on the strip, and the attitude of basketball kinda fits with the aura of the city. They'd have to bar gambling on the team's games, though, to prevent players and coaches from getting involved. MLB especially would be gunshy about that after the Pete Rose scandal. Most importantly, though, you can build an arena in one of the casinos - someone will find a way to get that to work - and it's easy to survive on 15,000 people a night, especially if that's capacity. Baseball needs double that at the least to survive. Basketball is an activity, something people go to to be seen as much as to see a game. Baseball is leisurely, relaxing, quiet, and a far cry from what people are looking for when they come to Vegas, especially if it's off the strip.

So basketball, yes. Baseball, no. Different creatures.

Ray Finkle
11-27-2005, 01:21 AM
I think basketball is a great idea for Vegas. There's precedent that a professional basketball team in a casino can work...the WNBA's Connecticut Sun play in the Mohegan Sun Casino and they draw pretty well for WNBA standards. It would work in Vegas because there's a set amount of time, it could fit on the strip, and the attitude of basketball kinda fits with the aura of the city. They'd have to bar gambling on the team's games, though, to prevent players and coaches from getting involved. MLB especially would be gunshy about that after the Pete Rose scandal. Most importantly, though, you can build an arena in one of the casinos - someone will find a way to get that to work - and it's easy to survive on 15,000 people a night, especially if that's capacity. Baseball needs double that at the least to survive. Basketball is an activity, something people go to to be seen as much as to see a game. Baseball is leisurely, relaxing, quiet, and a far cry from what people are looking for when they come to Vegas, especially if it's off the strip.

So basketball, yes. Baseball, no. Different creatures.

I agree with both of you guys. NBA in Vegas would be great however I just don't think Vegas and the MLB would work out as well.

dob72
11-27-2005, 11:48 AM
They have built 2 new stadiums for the Heat in recent years and people don't even go to those games. The Hurricanes can't draw fans. The Panthers can't. The Heat can't. The DOLPHINSN can't. The Marlins can't, and having 81 home games makes it impossible to turn a profit.

It's over. The Marlins are GONE! They have just sold off every player they have esentially except one or two and they have waved the white flag.

A new stadium in Miami will NOT.......let me say it agian........will NOT draw fans. The problem isn't the stadium. It's the area.

I won't even get into the Vegas part of this because you couldn't be more wrong on that also.
the heat can't sell out thats news to me seems like the have sold out almost all there games the last two years the dolphins and pathers both do very well just cuz lots of non dolphins fans or there dosen't mean anything thats who lives here even if they are jets or pats fans they still live here and go to the game

dob72
11-27-2005, 12:09 PM
u can look up the last ten years attendance for the heat panthers and dolphins and see that they all do good give or take a bad year or two

Section126
11-27-2005, 12:33 PM
You have 2 major sports leagues (NBA and MLB) fighting tooth and nail to get a franchise in Vegas first. Because each feel the city can only house 1 major sports team. Which is why the NBA ALL STAR game in 2007 is going to be held there. Even though there is no NBA franchise in Vegas.

They know its a tourism city. They know there is no arena in place to house a full time team. Bottom line is their research has told BOTH that if a team is there in that city (for either sport) it would be profitable and draw fans.

They feel that there are enough locals who would support a team on a full time basis, that all they need is a small portion of that "tourism" group to go to games to make the team profitable. And oh yeah.........GAMBLING!!!!! This would be the one place where LEGALLY you could go to a major sporting event (non horse racing), PLACE BETS, then go walk to your seat and watch what you just bet on.


Mike...please do just a little research before you continue to repeat this nonsense.

Section126
11-27-2005, 12:40 PM
They have built 2 new stadiums for the Heat in recent years and people don't even go to those games.

The Heat has sold out every single game for the last two years.

The Hurricanes can't draw fans.

Are you saying they should move the University of Miami? There attendance is fine for a college team.

The Panthers can't.

They do.

The Heat can't.

They have.

The DOLPHINSN can't.

They have...for years.

The Marlins can't, and having 81 home games makes it impossible to turn a profit.

Finally something that is at least half true. A new stadium would guarantee that the Marlins break even with a 70 million payroll...even with current attendance levels.

It's over. The Marlins are GONE! They have just sold off every player they have esentially except one or two and they have waved the white flag.

The marlins are now poised to be very good again in three years.

A new stadium in Miami will NOT.......let me say it agian........will NOT draw fans. The problem isn't the stadium. It's the area.

It doesn't have to sellout to be profitable....and yes...new stadiums do draw fans.

I won't even get into the Vegas part of this because you couldn't be more wrong on that also.

For someone that knows so little about Nevada State laws.....I wouldn't make this statement.



I found my new favorite poster.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 01:18 PM
:whistle:

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 01:24 PM
BTW, this is from Jayson Stark

"But Vegas does have its obstacles. One is those pesky little gambling issues, which the commissioner and Loria's fellow owners would have to resolve. But an even more practical issue is the same one that faces the Marlins in Florida: Lack of a real ballpark.

Cashman Field in Las Vegas is far from an ideal home park for a major league team. The minor-league park in town, Cashman Field, is barely adequate to house a Pacific Coast League game, let alone a big-league game. And while there has been lots of talk about building a park near the fabled Strip, nobody has thrown out the first jackhammer -- or blank check.

One baseball man familiar with the situation says there is "no way" Vegas could get a ballpark up and operable before 2010. But since the Marlins have a lease in Florida till then, they could, in theory, stagger through four lame-duck seasons while they're waiting for the moving vans. It's not a perfect situation. But people who know Loria continue to predict that if Vegas builds it, the Marlins will come."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/storycolumnist=stark_jayson&id=2233891

So, about the gambling on Vegas games in Vegas, you're wrong.

On your "there's construction, then there's VEGAS construction...they could have a park by 2007" comment, you're only 3 years off.

And on your theory that everyone there is clamoring for a baseball team, it seems like they are being very proactive in making a concrete plan in Vegas.

It takes far fewer pieces to fall in place to make it work in Florida than it would in Vegas.

phunwin
11-27-2005, 01:33 PM
I think the Marlins (would they still be called the Marlins if they moved to Vegas? That would be so stupid. Then again, it doesn't make any less sense than "Utah Jazz", and yet I digress...) would rather chew broken glass than sit through FOUR lame duck seasons in Miami. If they really wanted to go to Vegas, they could add portable seating to Cashman Field in the outfield to increase the capacity to around 35,000 or so. Not a perfect solution, but almost certainly better than 4 years of playing to crowds of 5,000 in a football stadium.

However, I do think that they could get a park up before 2010 and wouldn't take that baseball man's word as gospel. Maybe not by 2007, as MikeO suggests, but if they were committed to the project, they could probably do it sooner. If you're willing to spend enough cash, twist enough arms and call in enough favors, any timeline can be sped up.

I think the Marlins got screwed by MLB on this one, personally. Washington DC/Northern VA has been the logical relocation destination forever, and MLB basically ramrodded through the Expos' plan to move there. Had that market been open a bit longer, that would be the easy choice for the Marlins. Of course, MLB screwed the Expos over originally by letting Loria swap franchises in the first place, so maybe it all evens out in the end.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 01:47 PM
Cashman field only seats 9,334. Adding more than 25,000 seats in the outfield is not only infeasible but unattractive to fans. And that's not how you encourage a fanbase to begin.

And here's a review on Cashman Field, which is in the area that a new park would be built, from minorleagueballparks.com

"What's Good: I guess what I like best about Cashman is its complete lack of pretense. Unlike many of the newer ballparks (particularly at the AAA level), this stadium doesn't try to be something it's not. There's no phony nostalgia, no cutsey architectural allusions to older parks. It's just a moderately-sized, comfortable place to watch a ballgame, especially due to the physical surroundings -- interestingly (but thankfully), the field faces the rugged mountains beyond the city instead of the flashy neon strip. Furthermore, I was there when attendance was stated at over 12,000, (my interjection: this site also lists the capacity at 9,334, so I don't know where 12,000 comes from...go figure) yet lines for concessions and restrooms were short and fast-moving. I also appreciated the almost complete lack of usher or security presence -- I was able to roam freely (from front-row box seats to the luxury box area of the second level) with absolutely no interference.

What's Not So Good: The biggest downside, of course, is that it's in Vegas. And though the stadium is on Las Vegas Boulevard, it's not down near all the bright lights and Disney-fied casino resorts. Rather, it's farther north, among the trashy motels, adult bookstores, pawnshops, and plasma centers in what can generously be described as a "declining neighborhood" (a few blocks south of the ballpark, while gassing up my car I witnessed a young kid on a bicycle hold up an elderly couple and steal their groceries). Also, when I was there it seemed like the crowd was somewhat confused -- about the game, about the score, about the rules of baseball, whatever -- though to be fair it was July 3, and many of these folks were no doubt there for the post-game fireworks, not the ballgame."

So the what's good is that the park is plain and that it faces the mountains and that you can walk anywhere you want without ushers bothering you. "The biggest downside, of course, is that it's in Vegas" is an awfully seething remark, don't you think? And I know the family-friendly atmosphere pervades adult bookstores and trashy motels...maybe the players can even stay there. Vegas, like I wrote, has Backup QB Syndrome. But there's no turning back to the incumbent in this case.

MikeO
11-27-2005, 01:57 PM
BTW, this is from Jayson Stark

"But Vegas does have its obstacles. One is those pesky little gambling issues, which the commissioner and Loria's fellow owners would have to resolve. But an even more practical issue is the same one that faces the Marlins in Florida: Lack of a real ballpark.

Cashman Field in Las Vegas is far from an ideal home park for a major league team. The minor-league park in town, Cashman Field, is barely adequate to house a Pacific Coast League game, let alone a big-league game. And while there has been lots of talk about building a park near the fabled Strip, nobody has thrown out the first jackhammer -- or blank check.

One baseball man familiar with the situation says there is "no way" Vegas could get a ballpark up and operable before 2010. But since the Marlins have a lease in Florida till then, they could, in theory, stagger through four lame-duck seasons while they're waiting for the moving vans. It's not a perfect situation. But people who know Loria continue to predict that if Vegas builds it, the Marlins will come."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/storycolumnist=stark_jayson&id=2233891

So, about the gambling on Vegas games in Vegas, you're wrong.

On your "there's construction, then there's VEGAS construction...they could have a park by 2007" comment, you're only 3 years off.

And on your theory that everyone there is clamoring for a baseball team, it seems like they are being very proactive in making a concrete plan in Vegas.

It takes far fewer pieces to fall in place to make it work in Florida than it would in Vegas.

You guys are amazing. When I post something Peter Gammons reports, or Tom Verduicci......it doesn't matter. They are always wrong. They know nothnig.

WHEN YOU use a guy.... like Jason Stark in this case, it is gospel!

Unreal.

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 02:01 PM
You guys are amazing. When I post something Peter Gammons reports, or Tom Verduicci......it doesn't matter. They are always wrong. They know nothnig.

WHEN YOU use a guy.... like Jason Stark in this case, it is gospel!

Unreal.

I've never done that, as far as I can remember. Any proof of the allegations?

MikeO
11-27-2005, 02:02 PM
BTW, this is from Jayson Stark


It takes far fewer pieces to fall in place to make it work in Florida than it would in Vegas.

Live in denile. It has NEVER worked in Florida since day one. And it never will.

You want to say Vegas isn't the answer, ok we can disagree. But another city other than Vegas is still better than Miami.

MikeO
11-27-2005, 02:03 PM
I've never done that, as far as I can remember. Any proof of the allegations?


allegations. What are we in court! :shakeno:

RWhitney014
11-27-2005, 02:23 PM
allegations. What are we in court! :shakeno:

It's just a word...would you rather me use accusations?

And it never worked from Day One?

1993: 37,838 average (above league average)
1994: 33,695 average (above league average)
1995 (post-strike): 23,783 average (just under league average)
1996: 21,565 average
1997: 29,190 average (above league average)
1998: Even after the 12-trade firesale, we still had a 21,363 average.
1999: It was the 13 more trades before the start of the 1999 season that lowered the attendance for the next few years to horrible levels. 16,906 average
2000: 15,134 average
2001: 15,765 average
2002: 10,038 average (pathetic, I agree)
2003: 16,290 average (no one came until September, which stunk)
2004: 22,091 average
2005: 22,792 average

More fans need to come for sure. There is absolutely no argument there from me. I've been to games where I could have talked to Cliff Floyd in left field sitting in the club level on the first base side. But it has worked before and can work in the future. A stadium is a statement to the fans that we're here to stay and we're here to win. And in SoFla, winning is the only thing that brings fans. Look at the Heat with Shaq...it was a winning statement and good seats are hard as hell to come by now.

Ray Finkle
11-27-2005, 05:30 PM
You guys are amazing. When I post something Peter Gammons reports, or Tom Verduicci......it doesn't matter. They are always wrong. They know nothnig.

WHEN YOU use a guy.... like Jason Stark in this case, it is gospel!

Unreal.

That was me with the whole Gammons thing.

As for Veduicci or Stark., I like both of them. I think they're more credible than Gammons. Gammons in my opinion is lazy now that he's made it to the big time (if you want proof just read his ESPN.com articles they're filled with typos, spelling mistakes etc. The guy can't even edit his own work or get someone to do it for him?) and rarely has good or credible information.