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MikeO
12-01-2005, 08:52 AM
Being reported that Manny is going to Philly for Bobby Abreu.

The Philly press is loving this. First Terrell Owens, now Manny. And Manny will get destroyed first time he doesn't run out a ground ball, that press will eat him alive.

Good move for Boston, Abreu could also play CF if/when the Sox don't resign Damon. The ONE downside with Abreu is will he handle Boston? He might be like a Beltran who couldnt' handle NY and had a dissapointing season with the Mets. I could see Abreu having a tough time at first adjusting to a tough baseball city like Boston.

Word is the deal will be done before the next big club meetings coming up this month.


(other rumor is there is fear Manny will block the trade, so now LAA will get involved and Manny will end up there, Abreu in Boston, and LAA sending players to Philly)

finfansince72
12-01-2005, 09:43 AM
Is the PHilly press really that much worse than Boston? If Manny isnt hitting 140rbis a year it will be a problem, if hes performing no one will give a crap.

MikeO
12-01-2005, 09:59 AM
Philly is way worse than Boston when it comes to the media. The Boston media is so over the top its laughable and they aren't taken seriously at times. The Boston media is tough don't get me wrong, but Philly is insane.

FinsNYanksFan13
12-01-2005, 12:10 PM
I think this trade works out for both sides. The Phillies get to drop Abreu's contract (which they've tried to get off their books for a while now because they feel they're paying him to much for what he does) and Boston gets Manny out of town. Abreu has a better glove and speed then Manny. He'll hit nearly 20 less homeruns and drive in 40 less but he makes up for that in the outfield and with his stolen bases IMO. Meanwhile the Phillies get a player who could very well hit 60 homeruns in that ballpark. Citizens bank is a homerun hitter heaven, Manny in that ballpark 81 games is scary. All those balls Manny wacked off the monster will now sail into the sunset and that should add up an increase in homeruns this year (even up from the 40 something he hit this year). I think this works out for both sides and is probably the best deal I've heard for Manny yet!

Section126
12-01-2005, 12:32 PM
Hey.....I love Bobby Abreu....but there is no way that Boston isn't coming out way behind in this deal.....

GreenMonster
12-01-2005, 12:56 PM
He doesn't want to play in Boston because of the media, yet he will accept a trade to Philly. Trade sounds decent but I really don't see this one happening...

FaninPatsyLand
12-01-2005, 01:35 PM
I LOVE Bobby Abreu. Outstanding ballplayer... and he was baseball's best kept secret up until this year when he won a meaningless Homerun Derby. It's sad it took something so pointless to get him kudos he's deserved for a long time.

As far as the deal, we're gonna need another player in this deal if we are going to get somewhere close to fair value. But I definitely like the direction of this deal, IF we are forced to trade Manny.

RWhitney014
12-01-2005, 01:44 PM
Bobby Abreu is disliked by a lot of Phillies fans because he loafs in the outfield and doesn't always give it all. He's a very good player, but I don't think this trade will happen.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 01:45 PM
Abreu also has a no trade claus so he has to ok any trade as well as Manny. Also Manny has said in the past that he doesn't want to go and play in Philly.

But I do agree with many people on this board that Manny for Abreu is the best trade rumor so far.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 01:49 PM
Philly is way worse than Boston when it comes to the media. The Boston media is so over the top its laughable and they aren't taken seriously at times. The Boston media is tough don't get me wrong, but Philly is insane.

So if Philly's media is worse than Boston then why did you say Abreu might not be able to handle the pressure in Boston? Doesn't make sense to me. It's nothing like Beltran coming to NY after playing in both KC and Houston.

I LOVE how you bash every Red Sox move and non-move. I can't wait for you to justify what a great deal the Yankees just made signing Kyle Farnsworth to a 3 year, $17 million contract when the guy has 2 good years out of 7 with a career 4.45 ERA, 1.39 WHIP, and .246 BAA all pitching in the NL (minus the 46 games he pitched with the Tigers). Oh yeah and who also sucked in the playoffs year giving up 2 HRs in 2 innings in the Braves elimination game (a grand slam to Berkman and a game tying HR to Ausmus). Oh but he throws hard though :shakeno:

phunwin
12-01-2005, 01:56 PM
Do you have a link? I didn't see it on ESPN.com yet.

Manny for Abreu? Interesting.

If anyone's wondering, here's their career stats...
http://baseball-reference.com/a/abreubo01.shtml
http://baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml

If that goes through, I'm guessing Sox fans will howl bloody murder. Interesting thing, though, on BR. The batter Abreu's stats are most similar to over the last two years? Bernie Williams. Obviously, the name Bobby Abreu doesn't carry the same cache as Bernie Williams, but if you looked at the trade as "Manny Ramirez for the 2000 Bernie Williams and a significant savings in salary", it looks a lot better.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 02:08 PM
Do you have a link? I didn't see it on ESPN.com yet.

It's being rumored on various rumor sites like rotoworld.com and such. Who knows if there's any truth to it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I like Abreu, I think he's a good player but Manny is worth more than just him in my opinion.

phunwin
12-01-2005, 03:02 PM
It's being rumored on various rumor sites like rotoworld.com and such. Who knows if there's any truth to it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I like Abreu, I think he's a good player but Manny is worth more than just him in my opinion.

I think you're probably right. But if the Phillies make this work, that Thome trade looks even better than it did before. Surely, a Ramirez deal wouldn't have been possible without the Thome trade.

NJFINSFAN1
12-01-2005, 04:19 PM
According to ESPN radio, the sox/s offered the trade, and the Phill's said go away.

phunwin
12-01-2005, 04:25 PM
According to ESPN radio, the sox/s offered the trade, and the Phill's said go away.

If it was just Manny for Bobby straight up, the Phillies would be nuts to blow them off. Maybe the Sox asked for Gavin Floyd, too, or something like that.

NJFINSFAN1
12-01-2005, 04:35 PM
If it was just Manny for Bobby straight up, the Phillies would be nuts to blow them off. Maybe the Sox asked for Gavin Floyd, too, or something like that.

Not sure, but they just said the Phills said no. But who knows?

QB2RonnieTD23
12-01-2005, 06:02 PM
Being reported that Manny is going to Philly for Bobby Abreu.

The Philly press is loving this. First Terrell Owens, now Manny. And Manny will get destroyed first time he doesn't run out a ground ball, that press will eat him alive.

Good move for Boston, Abreu could also play CF if/when the Sox don't resign Damon. The ONE downside with Abreu is will he handle Boston? He might be like a Beltran who couldnt' handle NY and had a dissapointing season with the Mets. I could see Abreu having a tough time at first adjusting to a tough baseball city like Boston.

Word is the deal will be done before the next big club meetings coming up this month.


(other rumor is there is fear Manny will block the trade, so now LAA will get involved and Manny will end up there, Abreu in Boston, and LAA sending players to Philly)

What makes you think the Philly press doesn't destroy Abreu for his complete lack of effort when it comes to fielding. I'd take it, Manny may be older but he can still produce offensively as much as Abreu and is a FAR better fielder than Abreu who won a gold glove for.....i dont even know why.

If we had to give up Garbage Floyd, i'd do it. Because he has proved to amount to nothing so far in the minors and in the pro's and if we have an over rated prospect like him that fans are crying for to be moved to the starting roto i think i'd just rather take Manny.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 08:21 PM
According to ESPN radio, the sox/s offered the trade, and the Phill's said go away.

Call me crazy but does anyone think it's possible that the Sox called the Phillies up and mentioned Manny's name in an attempt to get Omar a little nervous so he'd possibly offer more players/prospects in a potential Manny to the Mets deal?

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 09:26 PM
If it was just Manny for Bobby straight up, the Phillies would be nuts to blow them off. Maybe the Sox asked for Gavin Floyd, too, or something like that.

I heard from a friend that watched Sport Center at 6 that Stark reported that the Phillies asked for Manny and a #1 pitcher in return for Abreu. Let me be the first one to laugh at Pat Gilleck for that one.

MikeO
12-01-2005, 10:21 PM
I heard from a friend that watched Sport Center at 6 that Stark reported that the Phillies asked for Manny and a #1 pitcher in return for Abreu. Let me be the first one to laugh at Pat Gilleck for that one.

Manny and Arroyo (they have been trying to move him for a year now) for Abreu and Philly will throw something else in. Not a crazy notion.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 10:27 PM
Manny and Arroyo (they have been trying to move him for a year now) for Abreu and Philly will throw something else in. Not a crazy notion.

Why should the Sox throw anything else in for a lesser player? If anything the Phillies should give the Red Sox other players besides just Abreu. Manny for Abreu is alright I guess considering all the other trade rumors but Manny AND someone else for Abreu. Come on that's awful. When did Bobby Abreu become Albert Pujols? He's a nice player but can't hold Manny's jock strap.

If the Phillies want Manny and Arroyo that's fine. But they should give the Red Sox at least a few more good prospects/players.

MikeO
12-01-2005, 10:51 PM
Why should the Sox throw anything else in for a lesser player? If anything the Phillies should give the Red Sox other players besides just Abreu. Manny for Abreu is alright I guess considering all the other trade rumors but Manny AND someone else for Abreu. Come on that's awful. When did Bobby Abreu become Albert Pujols? He's a nice player but can't hold Manny's jock strap.

If the Phillies want Manny and Arroyo that's fine. But they should give the Red Sox at least a few more good prospects/players.

1) Boston just wants to rid itself of Manny. So, they will take less to just get rid of him. Boston has NO LEVERAGE in any trades involving Manny with any team. Teams know Boston must move him.

2) You will NEVER get equal value for Manny in the perfect circumstance anyway.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 11:13 PM
1) Boston just wants to rid itself of Manny. So, they will take less to just get rid of him. Boston has NO LEVERAGE in any trades involving Manny with any team. Teams know Boston must move him.

2) You will NEVER get equal value for Manny in the perfect circumstance anyway.

1.) Once again Boston doesn't want to get rid of him. If you have been following any news the F.O., most notable Larry Lucchino (who in the past has been the most critical of Manny) has come out and said in the public and to Manny himself that they want him to stay on the team. Manny has said he wants to leave and the F.O. said they'd see what they can do but they weren't going to trade him just to trade him. Saying Boston has no leverage is funny because the Red Sox DON'T have to trade Manny. Manny signed a contract to play for the Red Sox until his contract is up, therefore the Red Sox own the rights to him. They decide whether or not Manny goes.

2.) I agree with you that you'll never get equal value for Manny in a perfect circumstance. However asking Boston for Manny and a pitcher for a lesser player is a joke. Again if anything the Phillies are the ones that should give the Sox Abreu and a pitcher, like a Garvin Floyd.

RWhitney014
12-01-2005, 11:13 PM
1) Boston just wants to rid itself of Manny. So, they will take less to just get rid of him. Boston has NO LEVERAGE in any trades involving Manny with any team. Teams know Boston must move him.

2) You will NEVER get equal value for Manny in the perfect circumstance anyway.

1) It's not a must situation. The front office would probably like to, but they can afford to pay him and deal with his antics for another year if need be. His offense makes them forget about it most of the time anyways.

2) Other than a select few players in this league, this is true. We're talking Pujols, Cabrera, Guerrero, and that's about it. Although I think Boston should maybe look into possibly acquiring Adam Dunn, sending Manny in a 3-way to LAA. The Angels could send some of their nice prospects, especially if they're willing to give up Ervin Santana. Dunn's sweet stroke would be nice in Fenway, I'd think. And that lineup can absorb his Ks...he would serve as nice protection for Big Papi, too, if it came down to it.

phunwin
12-01-2005, 11:15 PM
Well, Arroyo was basically a league-average pitcher last year, so it's not like he's a tremendous loss. Still, that seems excessive to ask for Manny *AND* Arroyo for Abreu. Even if we accept that the Sox will end up moving Ramirez for less than full value, that's pretty ludicrious. Surely the Mets or Angels would come up with a better offer than that.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 11:17 PM
1) It's not a must situation. The front office would probably like to, but they can afford to pay him and deal with his antics for another year if need be. His offense makes them forget about it most of the time anyways.

2) Other than a select few players in this league, this is true. We're talking Pujols, Cabrera, Guerrero, and that's about it. Although I think Boston should maybe look into possibly acquiring Adam Dunn, sending Manny in a 3-way to LAA. The Angels could send some of their nice prospects, especially if they're willing to give up Ervin Santana. Dunn's sweet stroke would be nice in Fenway, I'd think. And that lineup can absorb his Ks...he would serve as nice protection for Big Papi, too, if it came down to it.

I agree with both points. I'd love for the Red Sox to somehow get Adam Dunn to play at Fenway. I know it would never happened but I'd like to see what it would take if anything to see if Texierra is available in Texas and at what price. I like him even more than I like Dunn. He'd be great at Fenway too.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2005, 11:19 PM
Well, Arroyo was basically a league-average pitcher last year, so it's not like he's a tremendous loss. Still, that seems excessive to ask for Manny *AND* Arroyo for Abreu. Even if we accept that the Sox will end up moving Ramirez for less than full value, that's pretty ludicrious. Surely the Mets or Angels would come up with a better offer than that.

I couldn't agree more and that's what I was trying to say. Manny AND a player for Abreu is a joke. Granted Arroyo is average at best, the Phillies are still asking for too much. I personally think that the Manny for Abreu thing was just to try and get an extra prospect or more leverage with the Mets. Can you imagine what the Met fans would say if Manny went to the Phillies instead of the Mets?

MikeO
12-02-2005, 10:36 AM
Check the site these losers have put together.....

http://www.keepmanny.com/

FIN-IN-RI
12-02-2005, 12:00 PM
It's not a must situation and the Sox have more leverage than you think.

No way will it be for full value but everyone and their mother knows that.

Ray Finkle
12-02-2005, 03:13 PM
Check the site these losers have put together.....

http://www.keepmanny.com/

Why are they losers Mike? Because they like Manny and want him on their team next year?

And you have the nerve to say that I sweat the Yankees by posting about them? You haven't quit talking and posting about the Red Sox since the season ended.

Ray Finkle
12-02-2005, 03:38 PM
From rotoworld.com:

"A swap of Manny Ramirez and Bobby Abreu is considered unlikely, as the Phillies would prefer to add pitching if they move their All-Star outfielder.
Financial reasons also certainly have something to do with it. According to the Inquirer, the Phillies might actually be more interested in a package of Matt Clement and Trot Nixon for Abreu. That's something the Red Sox also might be willing to think about, though only if they ship Ramirez off without taking a lot of salary in return."

If this is true I'll drive to Boston and pack up Nixon and Clement's stuff and drive them to Philly myself. In my opinion the Red Sox should try to do that no matter what happens with Manny. Both Nixon and Clement stink.

FaninPatsyLand
12-02-2005, 03:48 PM
Why are they losers Mike? Because they like Manny and want him on their team next year?

And you have the nerve to say that I sweat the Yankees by posting about them? You haven't quit talking and posting about the Red Sox since the season ended.

SECOND CITY MENTALITY!!

You aren't allowed to talk about another Major League Baseball team outside of your favorite.

FaninPatsyLand
12-02-2005, 03:59 PM
"A swap of Manny Ramirez and Bobby Abreu is considered unlikely, as the Phillies would prefer to add pitching if they move their All-Star outfielder.
Financial reasons also certainly have something to do with it. According to the Inquirer, the Phillies might actually be more interested in a package of Matt Clement and Trot Nixon for Abreu.

That would be an absolutely BEAUTIFUL trade. I'm a little higher on Trot than you are, but Clement absolutely sucks. I'd pay his whole damn salary to get that loser out of Boston.

Get Abreu from the Phillies for Nixon and Clement, and then IF Manny has to be traded turn to LAA and ship him out west for a package that includes Ervin Santana. Man, that team would have an amazing amount of talent.. and alot of it would be YOUNG.

Philly couldn't possibily be that stupid... Well then again, they just signed Tom Gordon.

Jaj
12-02-2005, 05:03 PM
The Angels would just jump on that trade and offer more for Abreu than you guys are willing to...

Trot Nixon and Matt Clement? We can beat that...

MikeO
12-02-2005, 06:06 PM
Why are they losers Mike? Because they like Manny and want him on their team next year?

.

They are losers because people are putting in this time and effort and money out of their own pocket to start a site that has no purpose. They are entitled to do it, and I am entitled to call them a MORON! You think the Red Sox front office will see that site and say..........."WELL THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING"!

F' no!!!!!! It serves no purpose. This site here and "fan sites" are just that. Fan sites for fans to get together and chat about their team. A site like that has an agenda its trying to push. They have an unrealistic goal they are trying to achieve through a dopey website.

Also, I am ONLY talking about the Mets and Sox because they are the ONLY ones making moves at this point with Beckett/Lowell and Delgado, the Marlins meltdown andstuff. ONCE the Yanks and other teams get involved I will talk about them.

Ray Finkle
12-02-2005, 07:07 PM
They are losers because people are putting in this time and effort and money out of their own pocket to start a site that has no purpose.

Well you obviously went to the site so what does that say about you?

(Hopefully you signed on to keep him ;) )

MikeO
12-02-2005, 07:33 PM
Well you obviously went to the site so what does that say about you?

(Hopefully you signed on to keep him ;) )

I saw the link and went there once, shoot me :shakeno:

Ray Finkle
12-02-2005, 08:05 PM
I saw the link and went there once, shoot me :shakeno:

Did you at least sign it?

GreenMonster
12-03-2005, 12:25 AM
I saw the link and went there once, shoot me :shakeno:

One more time than me, ray, and faninpastland....

Ray Finkle
12-05-2005, 01:20 AM
According to Hall of Famer Peter Gammons (so take it with a grain of salt) that rumors of Abreu for Nixon and Clement are more serious than thought and that the Sox F.O. wants Abreu badly. He also said that Phillies like Clement because of his good ground ball to fly ball ratio in that band box that play at in Philly.

He also stated that the Red Sox have asked the Reds for the medical records for Adam Dunn. Hmmmm......

I for one would love to get Abreu to play RF and Dunn at 1st. Man what a line up, especially if the Sox end up keeping Manny somehow.

A line up of Abreu, Ortiz, Manny, and Dunn would be a very very scary. Although I admit is probably just a dream.

Jaj
12-05-2005, 03:03 AM
According to Hall of Famer Peter Gammons (so take it with a grain of salt) that rumors of Abreu for Nixon and Clement are more serious than thought and that the Sox F.O. wants Abreu badly. He also said that Phillies like Clement because of his good ground ball to fly ball ratio in that band box that play at in Philly.

He also stated that the Red Sox have asked the Reds for the medical records for Adam Dunn. Hmmmm......

I for one would love to get Abreu to play RF and Dunn at 1st. Man what a line up, especially if the Sox end up keeping Manny somehow.

A line up of Abreu, Ortiz, Manny, and Dunn would be a very very scary. Although I admit is probably just a dream.

Yes it's a dream and remember Manny wants to go and not to a town like Philly. Flat out he wants to be an Angel but there is a way this can work and it will be MAGICAL...

Angels send

- Juan Rivera
- Erick Aybar
- Steven Shell
- Darin Erstad
- Kendry Morales

Red Sox send

- Manny at full value
- Matt Clement
- Nixon
- Youkilis
- Shoppach

Diamondbacks send

- Javier Vazquez

Phillies send

- Bobby Abreu

Angels receive

- Manny at full contract

Boston receives

- Bobby Abreu
- Juan Rivera
- Erick Aybar
- Kendry Morales
- Darin Erstad

Arizona receives

- Matt Clement
- Kevin Youkilis
- Steven Shell

Philly receives

- Javier Vazquez
- Trot Nixon
- Kelly Shoppach

And they all go home happy...

And that trade idea seems to be satisfying most posters on all four boards...

UCFinfan86
12-07-2005, 10:19 AM
from the Redsox pov, i am sorta happy about that. But i don't know i really like nixon, i like the scrappy type of player he is.

from the diamondbacks i liek it to because they receive a couple of young guys for a SP that doesnt want to be there

i don't see it from the phillies though, they are losing one of their best players and i dont really liek what they are getting in return, to fit their team really.

Angels are sacrificing their future but if they get this, i think they should be the front runner for World Series. Vlad and manny together is unstoppable, if they could just get the same season out of Colon and pickup 1 more SP they should be solid