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Boomer
12-07-2005, 09:35 AM
OK, here's a look at who is likely to be in and who is likely to stay from a variety of sources.

Reggie Bush and Winston Justice are in. Take that to the bank. Bush will announce after the Rose Bowl and is, barring a trade, likely to be the #1 overall pick to Houston, who feel they can dramatically improve the OL in FA and at the top of R2. The Carroll thing blaming the media was just hype.

WR Steve Smith is also a likely jumper, whereas safety Darnell Bing is 50-50.

LenDale White's relationship with Snoop Dogg makes it difficult to call. White has said that Snoop will be his agent if and when he becomes a pro, and whilst the White family think he'll stay, the influence of Snoop is looming large.

The Vince Young bangwagon changes hourly. There have been a lot of mixed signals. Most associated with Texas thought he'd enter the draft if Texas wins the national title. But it seems that win or lose he may well be out. OT Justin Blaylock may well declare also.

Devin Hester has been promised more of a role on offense. Hester to my mind is a hugely overrated talent. A great returner, but an average corner. Getting him involved in the offense only complicates the picture. He is likely to stay if that is true. Ryan Moore is staying and so almost certainly are Baraka Atkins and Brandon Meriweather

Minnesota TB Laurence Maroney is out for certain. He's a 1st round lock and a great back.

Joe Thomas, the superb Wisconsin T and TB Brian Calhoun are 50-50. Thomas is a 1, so he may well jump. I think personally he'll stay.

Ohio State receiver Santonio Holmes and cornerback Ashton Youboty will enter the draft. So will Oregon DT Haloti Ngata.

At Fresno State high rising C Kyle Young and cornerback Richard Marshall will declare. Both could fall in the 30-50 region. Look for Marcus McCauley to jump as well.

WR Jason Hill of Washington State will also enter the draft. Should Hill run well for the stopwatch prior to April don't be surprised if he slides into the late part of round one. Meanwhile, running back/return specialist Maurice Drew-Jones is about 50-50 right now. Several feel at worst Drew-Jones will be a mid-second round choice in April while some feel he could slide into the late part of round one.

Hawaii guard Samson Satele is also considering entering the draft.

At Florida, Defensive tackle Marcus Thomas, wide receiver Chad Jackson, cornerback Dee Webb, and running back DeShawn Wynn have petitioned the NFL advisory committee.

Look for Brady Quinn and Omar Jacobs to stay.

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 09:37 AM
Thanks as always Boomer!

SkapePhin
12-07-2005, 09:37 AM
Snoop an agent? lol.. This should be good? The 2nd coming of Master P/Ricky Williams?

BTW, thanks Boomer.

dominizzo
12-07-2005, 09:39 AM
Boomer Young declares MAck brown said it

Agua
12-07-2005, 10:31 AM
White has said that Snoop will be his agent if and when he becomes a pro, and whilst the White family think he'll stay, the influence of Snoop is looming large.


You aren't joking, here, are you?
:shakeno:

HugeFinFan
12-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the info Boomer

screamer
12-07-2005, 10:42 AM
Thanks Boomer.

stan marino
12-07-2005, 10:51 AM
"with my mind on my money and my money on my mind"

fishypete
12-07-2005, 10:54 AM
Boomer...WR Steve Smith....Hmm? Thats a nice one.

Celtkin
12-07-2005, 10:57 AM
Thanks Boomer. Do you get the sense that Jacobs and Quinn are staying in hopes of raising their stock in their senior year?

MiamiMan147
12-07-2005, 11:00 AM
The only people who think Hester is so amazing are Miami fans who haven't looked at our depth chart. He's the 4th DB behind True Frosh Randy Phillips. He simply lacks coverage ability. He's better off on offense in a WR/RB/Reggie Bush type role. He should never have been moved to defense.

RAS25
12-07-2005, 11:13 AM
At Fresno State high rising C Kyle Young and cornerback Richard Marshall will declare. Both could fall in the 30-50 region. Look for Marcus McCauley to jump as well.
.

i would love to get young in the 2nd...im suprised by marshall leaving....hey boom do you think young may go ahead of eslinger i belive he is the best C in the nation but im also a fresno state homer so just wondering where you rank him.

DaVoness
12-07-2005, 11:13 AM
Go ahead and add NC States Mario Williams to that list....He should go top 10 i

Noodle Arm
12-07-2005, 11:37 AM
Laurence Maroney is one heck of a strong back...I've seen him drag defenders around like they were ragdolls. He'd most likely be the 2nd best back in the draft if he and Bush declare.

Santonio Holmes would be interesting.

LostInPatsLand
12-07-2005, 03:23 PM
How 'bout LaRon Landry?

Roman529
12-07-2005, 03:26 PM
I think Vince Young will come out....Leinart is set because his dad took out a big insurance policy on him...so even if Leinart gets hurt he will have millions...I am not sure if Vince did the same thing, but sometimes you can't wait to take care of your family....I think Vince will come out regardless of how Texas does in the Rose Bowl.....too much money to turn down.

kastofsna120
12-07-2005, 03:27 PM
The only people who think Hester is so amazing are Miami fans who haven't looked at our depth chart. He's the 4th DB behind True Frosh Randy Phillips. He simply lacks coverage ability. He's better off on offense in a WR/RB/Reggie Bush type role. He should never have been moved to defense.
but he wants to be the next deion :rolleyes:

he needs to get 15 more pounds on and focus on running the ball, period

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 03:31 PM
Thanks Boomer, I was realy hoping Quinn would come out though.

finfan54
12-07-2005, 03:34 PM
This is going to be a fun draft. Yeah baby.

feelthepain
12-07-2005, 03:47 PM
Not like this has any validity, but Skip Bayless of 1st and 10 just said that Cutler will be the first player taken in the draft. Infact he is being compared to Bret Favre. Also Cutler has hired Bret Favres agent. Don't prosecute me, just passing info.

phunwin
12-07-2005, 03:55 PM
Not like this has any validity, but Skip Bayless of 1st and 10 just said that Cutler will be the first player taken in the draft. Infact he is being compared to Bret Favre. Also Cutler has hired Bret Favres agent. Don't prosecute me, just passing info.

Thanks for passing along Skip's insane ramblings. They always bring a smile to my face. :)

Sucks about Quinn, though I'm hardly surprised. I'm hoping for a 350 yard, 4 TD Fiesta Bowl that pushes him towards declaring. Of course, since that would probably push him out of our range, I suppose it's a moot point.

Boomer
12-07-2005, 06:19 PM
Bayless is a crank. To say you'd take him over Bush or Leinart are the ramblings of a man with mental issues.

Mario Williams - yep - he's out for sure.

kastofsna120
12-07-2005, 06:23 PM
mario williams would've declared last year if he could. he's a lock to enter the draft

ckparrothead
12-07-2005, 06:29 PM
Trust me when I say that Snoop will negotiate a contract that is 100 times more standard than stupid Master P did with Ricky. And, Master P shouldn't necessarily be blamed entirely for that charade, because Ricky himself had a big hand in negotiating that contract. We all know how flippant he is, and the idea that he would only get money that he earned by producing well appealed to him very highly. He chose Master P because he viewed P as a passport to being able to have an impact on kids by sending a good message to them. But the contract was something that Ricky liked...not sure if he suggested it or not but he was definitely on board with it.

Snoop won't be in the negotiating room. He'll let his hired white doods do that.

MonkeyDog
12-07-2005, 06:29 PM
How about SS Jesse Daniels from LSU. Like Landry, he's a Junior, any word if he is coming out.

sports24/7
12-07-2005, 06:41 PM
OK, here's a look at who is likely to be in and who is likely to stay from a variety of sources.

Reggie Bush and Winston Justice are in. Take that to the bank. Bush will announce after the Rose Bowl and is, barring a trade, likely to be the #1 overall pick to Houston, who feel they can dramatically improve the OL in FA and at the top of R2. The Carroll thing blaming the media was just hype.

WR Steve Smith is also a likely jumper, whereas safety Darnell Bing is 50-50.

LenDale White's relationship with Snoop Dogg makes it difficult to call. White has said that Snoop will be his agent if and when he becomes a pro, and whilst the White family think he'll stay, the influence of Snoop is looming large.

The Vince Young bangwagon changes hourly. There have been a lot of mixed signals. Most associated with Texas thought he'd enter the draft if Texas wins the national title. But it seems that win or lose he may well be out. OT Justin Blaylock may well declare also.

Devin Hester has been promised more of a role on offense. Hester to my mind is a hugely overrated talent. A great returner, but an average corner. Getting him involved in the offense only complicates the picture. He is likely to stay if that is true. Ryan Moore is staying and so almost certainly are Baraka Atkins and Brandon Meriweather

Minnesota TB Laurence Maroney is out for certain. He's a 1st round lock and a great back.

Joe Thomas, the superb Wisconsin T and TB Brian Calhoun are 50-50. Thomas is a 1, so he may well jump. I think personally he'll stay.

Ohio State receiver Santonio Holmes and cornerback Ashton Youboty will enter the draft. So will Oregon DT Haloti Ngata.

At Fresno State high rising C Kyle Young and cornerback Richard Marshall will declare. Both could fall in the 30-50 region. Look for Marcus McCauley to jump as well.

WR Jason Hill of Washington State will also enter the draft. Should Hill run well for the stopwatch prior to April don't be surprised if he slides into the late part of round one. Meanwhile, running back/return specialist Maurice Drew-Jones is about 50-50 right now. Several feel at worst Drew-Jones will be a mid-second round choice in April while some feel he could slide into the late part of round one.

Hawaii guard Samson Satele is also considering entering the draft.

At Florida, Defensive tackle Marcus Thomas, wide receiver Chad Jackson, cornerback Dee Webb, and running back DeShawn Wynn have petitioned the NFL advisory committee.

Look for Brady Quinn and Omar Jacobs to stay.
Where do you see Young going? Do you think a team will take a chance on him in the early part of the draft, or do you see him there when the Dolphins pick? I know workouts will play a part, but what are your early thoughts?

I also agree with you on Hester. He is an absolut magician in the return game and could be used on both sides of the field, but I don't ever see him starting in the NFL at any position.

17-0
12-07-2005, 06:49 PM
Not like this has any validity, but Skip Bayless of 1st and 10 just said that Cutler will be the first player taken in the draft. Infact he is being compared to Bret Favre. Also Cutler has hired Bret Favres agent. Don't prosecute me, just passing info.

Great Sig.

touborg
12-07-2005, 06:53 PM
LenDale White's relationship with Snoop Dogg makes it difficult to call. White has said that Snoop will be his agent if and when he becomes a pro, and whilst the White family think he'll stay, the influence of Snoop is looming large.

Am I the only that finds this awesome? Imagine the negotiations:
Snoop: "Fo shizzle, we ain't trying to dizzle yo moneyizzle, we just trying to dizzle what needs to be shizzled".
GM: "What the hell?"





Devin Hester has been promised more of a role on offense. Hester to my mind is a hugely overrated talent. A great returner, but an average corner. Getting him involved in the offense only complicates the picture. He is likely to stay if that is true. Ryan Moore is staying and so almost certainly are Baraka Atkins and Brandon Meriweather

I'm annoyed with his moving around. He needs to stick to one position and become good at it. This moving around crap is a waste of talent.

larfo2224
12-07-2005, 06:58 PM
Thanks Boomer, good breakdown as you always do. Just a question, do you think that the possible rookie salary cap will affect the juniors decision to stay? Some of them could lose some major money in my opinion.

Boomer
12-08-2005, 01:31 PM
I think it will affect some people, but we'll see. It's been mentioned that Quinn might come out for that reason, but he's likely the #1 overall pick in a year, and there is only so much of a $60 million contract you can spend at once.

Mile High Fin
12-08-2005, 01:46 PM
Boomer,
Do you still believe that Young will be a bust in the NFL?
What NFL QB is he most similar too? Aaron Brooks, maybe?

Thanks for the input!!!

feelthepain
12-08-2005, 02:04 PM
Great Sig.

Thanks man!!

Austin Tatious
12-08-2005, 03:50 PM
I am just curious, but where are the Aaron Brooks comparisons coming from? Brooks does not bring the playmaking ability that Young does. Furthermore, Brooks has marginal speed. If you've seen Brooks try to turn the corner, he has very pedestrian speed. Young, on the other hand, has a real burst, and that is the first thing you think of with Young. I do not see any similarity whatsoever other than the obvious social issue which is amateurish or worse to even be considered. Brooks has a decent arm and has not shown the ability to lead to victory. Young, on the other hand, has been a 60% passer, but his decision-making until this season and overall passing has been somewhat suspect, although not nearly as suspect as some people on this board claim. Young will be a top 10 pick this year. People who know what they are talking about are high on Young. Period.

NLude33
12-08-2005, 04:06 PM
I think it will affect some people, but we'll see. It's been mentioned that Quinn might come out for that reason, but he's likely the #1 overall pick in a year, and there is only so much of a $60 million contract you can spend at once.

It's not so much the contract size, they will still be very large for unproven players. It is the signing bonus and garunteed money that is the issue. If all Quinn can get is a $5 million signing bonus next year for his rookie contract, and then sucks, and washes out, he will loose millions. If Leinart/Bush as the #1 pick this year suck and wash out, they will be garunteed $20+ million.

DUB
12-08-2005, 04:36 PM
Boomer, do you see Vincent Young as a fit for the Phins? I think his athleticism and arm strength could thrive in this offense..I know he may take a year or two to develop. What are your thoughts on Kitna/Young for the Phins future?

PhinsTD
12-08-2005, 08:45 PM
OK, here's a look at who is likely to be in and who is likely to stay from a variety of sources.

Reggie Bush and Winston Justice are in. Take that to the bank. Bush will announce after the Rose Bowl and is, barring a trade, likely to be the #1 overall pick to Houston, who feel they can dramatically improve the OL in FA and at the top of R2. The Carroll thing blaming the media was just hype.

WR Steve Smith is also a likely jumper, whereas safety Darnell Bing is 50-50.

LenDale White's relationship with Snoop Dogg makes it difficult to call. White has said that Snoop will be his agent if and when he becomes a pro, and whilst the White family think he'll stay, the influence of Snoop is looming large.

The Vince Young bangwagon changes hourly. There have been a lot of mixed signals. Most associated with Texas thought he'd enter the draft if Texas wins the national title. But it seems that win or lose he may well be out. OT Justin Blaylock may well declare also.

Devin Hester has been promised more of a role on offense. Hester to my mind is a hugely overrated talent. A great returner, but an average corner. Getting him involved in the offense only complicates the picture. He is likely to stay if that is true. Ryan Moore is staying and so almost certainly are Baraka Atkins and Brandon Meriweather

Minnesota TB Laurence Maroney is out for certain. He's a 1st round lock and a great back.

Joe Thomas, the superb Wisconsin T and TB Brian Calhoun are 50-50. Thomas is a 1, so he may well jump. I think personally he'll stay.

Ohio State receiver Santonio Holmes and cornerback Ashton Youboty will enter the draft. So will Oregon DT Haloti Ngata.

At Fresno State high rising C Kyle Young and cornerback Richard Marshall will declare. Both could fall in the 30-50 region. Look for Marcus McCauley to jump as well.

WR Jason Hill of Washington State will also enter the draft. Should Hill run well for the stopwatch prior to April don't be surprised if he slides into the late part of round one. Meanwhile, running back/return specialist Maurice Drew-Jones is about 50-50 right now. Several feel at worst Drew-Jones will be a mid-second round choice in April while some feel he could slide into the late part of round one.

Hawaii guard Samson Satele is also considering entering the draft.

At Florida, Defensive tackle Marcus Thomas, wide receiver Chad Jackson, cornerback Dee Webb, and running back DeShawn Wynn have petitioned the NFL advisory committee.

Look for Brady Quinn and Omar Jacobs to stay.

Devin Hester has been moved full-time to offense, as he may not have even been a mediocre CB.

Coker has said this to the media that he will play offense full-time and that he'll be back for his senior season.

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=13&p=9&cfg=null&c=2&cid=475164&nid=1832026&fhn=1

Agent51
12-08-2005, 08:57 PM
Boomer Young declares MAck brown said it

Where, and when?

KB21
12-08-2005, 09:31 PM
Keep an eye on Ashton Yobouty from Ohio State. He could find himself into the middle part of the first round with the dearth of cornerbacks in this draft. He's got great size for the position (6'2", 200 lbs), and has great hips in coverage. He can defend the deep part of the field and is a player I feel Nick Saban will have his eyes on. Ashton is one of the more impressive corners I've seen all season.

saves
12-08-2005, 10:15 PM
Not like this has any validity, but Skip Bayless of 1st and 10 just said that Cutler will be the first player taken in the draft. Infact he is being compared to Bret Favre. Also Cutler has hired Bret Favres agent. Don't prosecute me, just passing info.

Skip went to Vandy, he's just being a homer.

feelthepain
12-08-2005, 10:21 PM
Skip went to Vandy, he's just being a homer.

Well that explains a lot. Still, I wouldn't mind having Cutler if he slipped to us.

jlfin
12-08-2005, 10:39 PM
Snoop an agent? lol.. This should be good? The 2nd coming of Master P/Ricky Williams?

BTW, thanks Boomer.

when will the players learn. I'm sure RW realizes that hiring master P was one of the worst business decisions of his life.

Awsi Dooger
12-08-2005, 10:50 PM
Devin Hester has been moved full-time to offense, as he may not have even been a mediocre CB.

Coker has said this to the media that he will play offense full-time and that he'll be back for his senior season.

Devin Hester should play offense. For his sake and the team's sake. Miami's offense is very basic and does not spread the field. It's essentially dependent on superior athletes not creativity, while USC can either muscle you or trick you. When the Canes play a thug defensive team they are basically at their mercy, no ability to adjust and the interior offensive linemen are not special athletes so they get blown up. The Canes desperately need a premier playmaker like Devin Hester, especially after Tyrone Moss hurt his knee against Va Tech.

I completely disagree with the wording that Devin Hester is a hugely overrated talent. He is a supreme talent who has never been utilized properly. It's possible he's just not bright enough to grasp a complex offense. That's supposedly what kept him off the field as a freshman when he was still listed as an offensive player. In his brief time on offense he has been an absolute blur to the corner on pitchouts and catches the ball effortlessly in the very rare times Miami has thrown it to him. I think a better staff would have kept him on offense and he'd be a much more polished threat right now. You watch the moves and instincts during returns and they are world class, although this year Hester he has been hurt and not been as decisive, preferring to circle back or allow the defenders to draw toward him instead of exploding with a decisive initial move.

I watched Hester's first game on defense in person against La Tech in 2004. They tried him at safety initially and he just wandered around. His first play he took a terrible angle and the play netted 65 yards. At corner he was better because he's basically playing a man and not a responsibility so the competitive nature kicked in, but he never looked natural doing it, or even totally committed.

Ryan Moore is too mediocre to turn pro. Merriweather has improved but I'd be surprised if he went. Atkins and Hester are the two guys I expected to turn pro or seriously consider it. They have ability and can move up the charts via workouts. Very rare for the Canes not to have anyone leave early.

ckparrothead
12-08-2005, 10:50 PM
when will the players learn. I'm sure RW realizes that hiring master P was one of the worst business decisions of his life.

The idea itself is no worse than hiring a family member to negotiate your contract or even worse doing it yourself (ask Teddy Bruschi).

Ricky Williams' contract reflects Ricky Williams' character. That contract was set up the way it was because of Ricky, not because of Master P. The idea of playing for your pay appealed highly to Ricky. I wouldn't be surprised if P tried to school him against it.

And besides, knowing Snoop, he'll let all his HWD's do the negotiating (Hired White Dudes)

fishypete
12-08-2005, 11:24 PM
Boomer...Do you think Paul Posluszny LB from Penn Stae will come out early...he just won the Bednarik award for outstanding defensive player. The kid is a tackling machine.

girthvader44
12-09-2005, 12:04 AM
I see the fins taking a nice playmaking TE to compliment McMike. Someone with reliable hands to play next to, flexed, or on the other side of Randy. Some I like:

Pope from GA - underclass
Thomas - TX - SR
King - VT - not sure?

-GV

rafael
12-09-2005, 12:05 AM
when will the players learn. I'm sure RW realizes that hiring master P was one of the worst business decisions of his life.

That whole quitting thing wasn't a great business decision either.

Ozzy
12-09-2005, 01:54 AM
I am just curious, but where are the Aaron Brooks comparisons coming from? Brooks does not bring the playmaking ability that Young does. Furthermore, Brooks has marginal speed. If you've seen Brooks try to turn the corner, he has very pedestrian speed. Young, on the other hand, has a real burst, and that is the first thing you think of with Young. I do not see any similarity whatsoever other than the obvious social issue which is amateurish or worse to even be considered. Brooks has a decent arm and has not shown the ability to lead to victory. Young, on the other hand, has been a 60% passer, but his decision-making until this season and overall passing has been somewhat suspect, although not nearly as suspect as some people on this board claim. Young will be a top 10 pick this year. People who know what they are talking about are high on Young. Period.

When I'm looking for a Qb, the first thing I want to think of is, man he is an excellent PASSER, not how he turns a corner, or how much burst he has.

Brooks has more than a decent arm. The only thing that would make one say decent might be his accuracy. But he has a GUN for an arm.

I've seen Young play plenty enough to know that his Wr's have helped his percentage rate immensely. You take a look at some game tape, and you see a lot of them are so wide open that they have time to adjust to the passes Young throws. It makes the placement of the pass look a lot better than it was.

A year ago he was terrible in his decisions, and his throws. It's not a claim, it's a fact.

BUT.........

Young has made leaps and bounds this year, that cannot be denied. But his best bet for becoming a bonafied NFL Qb, is for him to stay at Texas one more year. He may end up riding a bench in the NFL whereas he won't at Texas.

One thing that I like about his passes, is that even if they are off, the passes look to be easy to catch. He throws a nice spiral a lot of the times. He has the potential to become a passer, who happens to have the ability to run. But he needs more time. One year of solid improvements are not enough.

Ozzy
12-09-2005, 02:02 AM
Keep an eye on Ashton Yobouty from Ohio State. He could find himself into the middle part of the first round with the dearth of cornerbacks in this draft. He's got great size for the position (6'2", 200 lbs), and has great hips in coverage. He can defend the deep part of the field and is a player I feel Nick Saban will have his eyes on. Ashton is one of the more impressive corners I've seen all season.

I would love to see him in a Dolphins uniform. He keeps great speed on his backpedal, and his turns.

Ohio State has an excellent defensive scheme. Their players will be a lot more NFL ready than a lot of top talent from some other schools. I think this will be the case with Yobouty.

Mark my words, that when some Notre Dame offensive lineman that learn from Weiss start coming out, they will be a lot more NFL ready, than some players ranked above them....

Ozzy
12-09-2005, 02:09 AM
I completely disagree with the wording that Devin Hester is a hugely overrated talent. He is a supreme talent who has never been utilized properly. It's possible he's just not bright enough to grasp a complex offense. That's supposedly what kept him off the field as a freshman when he was still listed as an offensive player. In his brief time on offense he has been an absolute blur to the corner on pitchouts and catches the ball effortlessly in the very rare times Miami has thrown it to him. I think a better staff would have kept him on offense and he'd be a much more polished threat right now. You watch the moves and instincts during returns and they are world class, although this year Hester he has been hurt and not been as decisive, preferring to circle back or allow the defenders to draw toward him instead of exploding with a decisive initial move.

It was a fact that Hester was having trouble with the system. He is not stupid by any means. He's just a very slow learner, and most of all, he was very stubborn with change. He also was having a terrible time catching the ball.

Also I think Hester requested to try defense, and Coker went with it. That was indeed a big mistake. They should have used him primarily at Rb.

Boik14
12-09-2005, 02:20 AM
OK, here's a look at who is likely to be in and who is likely to stay from a variety of sources.

Reggie Bush and Winston Justice are in. Take that to the bank. Bush will announce after the Rose Bowl and is, barring a trade, likely to be the #1 overall pick to Houston, who feel they can dramatically improve the OL in FA and at the top of R2. The Carroll thing blaming the media was just hype.

WR Steve Smith is also a likely jumper, whereas safety Darnell Bing is 50-50.

LenDale White's relationship with Snoop Dogg makes it difficult to call. White has said that Snoop will be his agent if and when he becomes a pro, and whilst the White family think he'll stay, the influence of Snoop is looming large.

The Vince Young bangwagon changes hourly. There have been a lot of mixed signals. Most associated with Texas thought he'd enter the draft if Texas wins the national title. But it seems that win or lose he may well be out. OT Justin Blaylock may well declare also.

Devin Hester has been promised more of a role on offense. Hester to my mind is a hugely overrated talent. A great returner, but an average corner. Getting him involved in the offense only complicates the picture. He is likely to stay if that is true. Ryan Moore is staying and so almost certainly are Baraka Atkins and Brandon Meriweather

Minnesota TB Laurence Maroney is out for certain. He's a 1st round lock and a great back.

Joe Thomas, the superb Wisconsin T and TB Brian Calhoun are 50-50. Thomas is a 1, so he may well jump. I think personally he'll stay.

Ohio State receiver Santonio Holmes and cornerback Ashton Youboty will enter the draft. So will Oregon DT Haloti Ngata.

At Fresno State high rising C Kyle Young and cornerback Richard Marshall will declare. Both could fall in the 30-50 region. Look for Marcus McCauley to jump as well.

WR Jason Hill of Washington State will also enter the draft. Should Hill run well for the stopwatch prior to April don't be surprised if he slides into the late part of round one. Meanwhile, running back/return specialist Maurice Drew-Jones is about 50-50 right now. Several feel at worst Drew-Jones will be a mid-second round choice in April while some feel he could slide into the late part of round one.

Hawaii guard Samson Satele is also considering entering the draft.

At Florida, Defensive tackle Marcus Thomas, wide receiver Chad Jackson, cornerback Dee Webb, and running back DeShawn Wynn have petitioned the NFL advisory committee.

Look for Brady Quinn and Omar Jacobs to stay.Thanks Boomer. Just a question though: What are your thoughts on Youboty and where do you see him going? i feel as though with his speed, height and stregnth this kid can be another shawn springs type and is probably the best CB in the draft by a fair margin. I know its early to tell but i have been really impressed by his developement. All he really allows wrs to catch are screens and some hitches and with his speed, he should be deadly when he learns better technique.

Boik14
12-09-2005, 02:24 AM
Keep an eye on Ashton Yobouty from Ohio State. He could find himself into the middle part of the first round with the dearth of cornerbacks in this draft. He's got great size for the position (6'2", 200 lbs), and has great hips in coverage. He can defend the deep part of the field and is a player I feel Nick Saban will have his eyes on. Ashton is one of the more impressive corners I've seen all season.thank goodness someone sees what i see when i watch him! With the lack of attention hes been getting i was starting to wonder if i was delusional but now i know that my delusions are only a problem sometimes! :lol:

Boomer
12-09-2005, 04:57 AM
Boomer...Do you think Paul Posluszny LB from Penn Stae will come out early...he just won the Bednarik award for outstanding defensive player. The kid is a tackling machine.

Pete, apparently he's set to stay.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:37 AM
Thanks Boomer. Do you get the sense that Jacobs and Quinn are staying in hopes of raising their stock in their senior year?

Without question. Jacobs has to put a fairly mediocre season behind him and Quinn needs to build on this year and showcase any doubters who think he might be a one year wonder.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:38 AM
i would love to get young in the 2nd...im suprised by marshall leaving....hey boom do you think young may go ahead of eslinger i belive he is the best C in the nation but im also a fresno state homer so just wondering where you rank him.

Whilst he's the best pure OC in the draft, at 280lbs, Eslinger is a system center that will only really work in Atlanta or Denver. With that in mind, you have to take into account how he will fall. Thus Young may well go ahead of Eslinger.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:41 AM
How about SS Jesse Daniels from LSU. Like Landry, he's a Junior, any word if he is coming out.

Haven't heard about either's decision.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:42 AM
Where do you see Young going? Do you think a team will take a chance on him in the early part of the draft, or do you see him there when the Dolphins pick? I know workouts will play a part, but what are your early thoughts?

I also agree with you on Hester. He is an absolut magician in the return game and could be used on both sides of the field, but I don't ever see him starting in the NFL at any position.

If he comes out then I would imagine he'll go in the first 20 picks, probably between 10 and 20 depending on who else QB wise declares and how long teams are prepared to wait for him.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:44 AM
Boomer,
Do you still believe that Young will be a bust in the NFL?
What NFL QB is he most similar too? Aaron Brooks, maybe?

Thanks for the input!!!

I think he's making a stupid mistake if he comes out. He needs to stay and continue to improve as a passer.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:46 AM
Boomer, do you see Vincent Young as a fit for the Phins? I think his athleticism and arm strength could thrive in this offense..I know he may take a year or two to develop. What are your thoughts on Kitna/Young for the Phins future?

Young is certainly a player that Miami are interested in. Kitna is also a veteran that the team could show some interest in. I suppose it depends how the rest of the season plays out and whether Sage gets any other opportunities to showcase his skills. I also get the feeling that people that matter would like to see Cleo Lemon at some stage, just to gauge exactly what they might have.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:48 AM
when will the players learn. I'm sure RW realizes that hiring master P was one of the worst business decisions of his life.

Like CK said, Ricky certainly was as culpable for allowing that to happen. Plus I don't think anyone would subsequently be so foolish as to allow that sort of deal to go down.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:50 AM
I see the fins taking a nice playmaking TE to compliment McMike. Someone with reliable hands to play next to, flexed, or on the other side of Randy. Some I like:

Pope from GA - underclass
Thomas - TX - SR
King - VT - not sure?

-GV

Leonard Pope is a solid mid 1st rounder so I doubt he'll be a player we sign.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:56 AM
Thanks Boomer. Just a question though: What are your thoughts on Youboty and where do you see him going? i feel as though with his speed, height and stregnth this kid can be another shawn springs type and is probably the best CB in the draft by a fair margin. I know its early to tell but i have been really impressed by his developement. All he really allows wrs to catch are screens and some hitches and with his speed, he should be deadly when he learns better technique.

I think he's a hell of a corner. He does everything that you want in a young corner - his technique is super, he's fluid, he locates the ball early, he tackles, has great size, etc. I think he needs to stay in the game for 60 minutes as he can tend to give up a play through what looks more like sloppiness than lack of talent, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him come off the board around the 12-20 area when all's said and done.

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 11:36 AM
I'm a pretty big Canes fan and have gotten to see Devin Hester play...probably not as much as I would want to, but when I see him play two words come to mind...Desmond Howard. Maybe that's too easy...but that's what I see.

It will be interesting to see what Young runs in the 40. If he runs below the 4.5 mark or something comparable to a "fast" wide receiver, then I would draft him just because even if he doesn't become a good QB he's got the raw size/speed combination to be a successful wide receiver no matter how much training he has in the trade. Heck, this is only Matt Jones' first year as a wide receiver in his professional career, and the guy has 5 TDs and 400 yards through 12 games. I know I was unpopular for sticking by my analysis that Matt Jones would become a dominant receiver in the NFL sooner rather than later, but the wide receiver position on a whole is much more sensitive to issues of size/speed combo than other positions are. People look at Haloti Ngata's size/speed combo but that position is not as sensitive to to the ratio as other positions...and certainly not the same as WR. Remember, at one time the WR got flooded with guys who were just track stars and could just run really fast, not football players, because guess what the speed killed and they became really successful doing it (what was the guy's name who just got in the HOF a few years back? Bob Hayes?).

If Young runs like Matt Jones did, then heck I might draft him purely as a WR. These 6'5" guys with 4.4 speed...I don't know where the heck they are coming from (must be the water), but they will be the next trend at the position in the NFL. They don't even need to be all that talented as WRs.

As for playing QB, I guess staying in school would help Young progress but I think sitting the bench in the NFL would help him progress too, just because he gets to be coached by a QB coach and gets to practice with players and learn. Young would probably have to sit for about two years. At this point, I would be a little worried that playing another year at Texas just kind of further sets him in his ways as far as the run-first mentality. I have nothing against quarterbacks who run to set up the pass, if they can pull it off. I think Mike Vick can pull it off. I'm not sure if Vince can or not. One thing you have to keep in mind when seeing he throws to wide open receivers is, he shakes those receivers wide open with his feet, and will continue to do that in the NFL at the next level...so take that for what it's worth.

glh205
12-09-2005, 11:49 AM
Any news on Drew Stanton, QB Mich State, on if he is coming out? Boomer, what are your thoughts on him?

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 11:59 AM
Look for Brady Quinn and Omar Jacobs to stay.

Boomer, question......based on QB's coming out and those staying for another year....if you are in the Miami Front Office, what do you do?

Do you take one of these upcoming draft QB's?
Or do you continue building in other areas of the team one more year, and pass on them and continue to use other veteran FA (Kitna, etc) or current roster NFL QBs (including Sage, Lemon) and wait another year to draft a young gun (if we somehow have a high enough draft pick and we trade up, etc).

You know I like Quinn and just think he is a type that has the pedigy, build, toughness and solid coaching (a Montana/Marino type where the hype isnt making him all-world, but he turns out to be a perfect match and leader for years). Not to mention the Notre Dame link and all!

I just dont think we trade up this year to get that type of QB, and not sure if the mid-round QB's offer enough potential to go after them over another area of need. It seems next year (doesnt it always) may be deeper and better at the QB spot.

Not saying Miami can get or will trade up (expect we wont have a top 15 draft pick next year for trading up purposes) for Quinn next year by waiting, but is he the type an organization would wait for in comparison to the quys that are coming out?

Can you or should you build in the other areas of need and forgo a young QB one more year?

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 01:55 PM
Boomer, question......based on QB's coming out and those staying for another year....if you are in the Miami Front Office, what do you do?

Do you take one of these upcoming draft QB's?
Or do you continue building in other areas of the team one more year, and pass on them and continue to use other veteran FA (Kitna, etc) or current roster NFL QBs (including Sage, Lemon) and wait another year to draft a young gun (if we somehow have a high enough draft pick and we trade up, etc).

You know I like Quinn and just think he is a type that has the pedigy, build, toughness and solid coaching (a Montana/Marino type where the hype isnt making him all-world, but he turns out to be a perfect match and leader for years). Not to mention the Notre Dame link and all!

I just dont think we trade up this year to get that type of QB, and not sure if the mid-round QB's offer enough potential to go after them over another area of need. It seems next year (doesnt it always) may be deeper and better at the QB spot.

Not saying Miami can get or will trade up (expect we wont have a top 15 draft pick next year for trading up purposes) for Quinn next year by waiting, but is he the type an organization would wait for in comparison to the quys that are coming out?

Can you or should you build in the other areas of need and forgo a young QB one more year?

Not that I will answer FOR Boomer, but I would imagine what QB we take and where will depend on where everyone grades out. It's easy to ask what you would do at this point as far as the QB, but not so easy to answer. We still don't know, for instance, where Jay Cutler will grade out once the Senior Bowl and Combine are done. There is also a bit an enigma surrounding Vince Young. While it would be doubtful that he'd show up to the Senior Bowl, how he looks throwing side by side with other more traditional QBs at the combine could impact his overall grade significantly because when scouts look at a Brady Quinn or Matt Leinart, they may be about 70% sure of what they see because it's in a form they generally recognize, but when they watch a Vince Young play they are probably only about 50% sure of what they see because it's not in a form they can recognize easily (which makes pure grading on NFL suitability more difficult). With the bigger question marks comes larger variability based on what some guys see vs other guys, and larger variability in the impact of the Combine and private workouts.

So, all in all it would be difficult for any of us to say that the Dolphins should go with a QB in round 1 right now, because for all we know the Dolphins could end up with the #22 pick in the draft while Vince Young and Jay Cutler both solidify their spots as top 15 selections.

As for drafting a QB period, yeah I would say that I am about 99% certain that we WILL draft one quarterback, just not sure where. If Boomer is anything like me, we hate just pure guesswork, and right now the information exchange is in such a premature stage that speculating the the Dolphins should or will take so and so in the such and such round would be nothing more than guesswork.

My only value-added tip would be to look out for subtle signs that we're out there scouting some lesser known names and prospects under-the-radar. I could foresee a situation where you see Randy Mueller himself traveling for like, Darrell Hackney's workout. Watch out in case Jason Garrett pulls like a Hudson Houck and goes to some small school to spend three days with a lesser known prospect. To my knowledge, we have about three 7th round picks. I'm not sure who among the most-talked-about QBs may fall to the 7th round, but it wouldn't surprise me to see the Dolphins spending a significant amount of time figuring out the answer to that question too. The coaches have a preference when it comes to QBs for GROOMING them, not necessarily buying them. A first round pick QB is sort of like buying a QB, same as it would be for buying a FA.

LostInPatsLand
12-09-2005, 01:56 PM
Let us all bow down to the Immortal Boomer....

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 02:02 PM
Not that I will answer FOR Boomer, but I would imagine what QB we take and where will depend on where everyone grades out. It's easy to ask what you would do at this point as far as the QB, but not so easy to answer. We still don't know, for instance, where Jay Cutler will grade out once the Senior Bowl and Combine are done. There is also a bit an enigma surrounding Vince Young. While it would be doubtful that he'd show up to the Senior Bowl, how he looks throwing side by side with other more traditional QBs at the combine could impact his overall grade significantly because when scouts look at a Brady Quinn or Matt Leinart, they may be about 70% sure of what they see because it's in a form they generally recognize, but when they watch a Vince Young play they are probably only about 50% sure of what they see because it's not in a form they can recognize easily (which makes pure grading on NFL suitability more difficult). With the bigger question marks comes larger variability based on what some guys see vs other guys, and larger variability in the impact of the Combine and private workouts.

So, all in all it would be difficult for any of us to say that the Dolphins should go with a QB in round 1 right now, because for all we know the Dolphins could end up with the #22 pick in the draft while Vince Young and Jay Cutler both solidify their spots as top 15 selections.

As for drafting a QB period, yeah I would say that I am about 99% certain that we WILL draft one quarterback, just not sure where. If Boomer is anything like me, we hate just pure guesswork, and right now the information exchange is in such a premature stage that speculating the the Dolphins should or will take so and so in the such and such round would be nothing more than guesswork.

My only value-added tip would be to look out for subtle signs that we're out there scouting some lesser known names and prospects under-the-radar. I could foresee a situation where you see Randy Mueller himself traveling for like, Darrell Hackney's workout. Watch out in case Jason Garrett pulls like a Hudson Houck and goes to some small school to spend three days with a lesser known prospect. To my knowledge, we have about three 7th round picks. I'm not sure who among the most-talked-about QBs may fall to the 7th round, but it wouldn't surprise me to see the Dolphins spending a significant amount of time figuring out the answer to that question too. The coaches have a preference when it comes to QBs for GROOMING them, not necessarily buying them. A first round pick QB is sort of like buying a QB, same as it would be for buying a FA.

Thanks for the reply and in-depth response. I certianly know its quess work and very early and not the easiest of questions.

You answered my main one about whether the current Miami brass would pass up this year and go the FA route, and pass on any QB this year and wait, or use a later round pick and take a shot at some QB. I quess I just dont see this crop of QB's causing us to use a rd 1, 2, 3 pick...maybe we use a 4th - 7th this year. I also dont see us trading up and giving away picks to go after a hype QB in early rounds.

If we use the 99% plan I see it being a QB with little to no hype around him, it will be a lesser known guy.

Maybe Boomer will answer and go a different route with his view.

thanks ck as always.

Finfanforever
12-09-2005, 02:03 PM
With all these QB arguments and answer the following questions:

Who are the top 5 QB's in this draft and what do you like and dislike about them?

Who of those 5 are the FINS high on and most likely to draft?

What are the Fins priorities and how (what round or FA) will they look to solve them?

THANKS...YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NickV13
12-09-2005, 02:06 PM
Quinn said last night on ESPN-News he is definetly staying..

He will lead the mighty ND to a National Championship----and a Heisman Trophy for himself.

PhinsRDbest
12-09-2005, 02:24 PM
Boom, what do you think about this player agreement rumor going on? Do you see these guys like Quinn, Jacobs, even Antonio Cromartie who are probably staying but then decide to leave because of the new agreement?

PS- Speaking of Cromartie do you think he may come out anyways even though he was hurt this season due to the lack of great corners in this draft. He could pull a Willis Mcgahee and have a nice combine and someone would take a shot at him in the first.

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the reply and in-depth response. I certianly know its quess work and very early and not the easiest of questions.

You answered my main one about whether the current Miami brass would pass up this year and go the FA route, and pass on any QB this year and wait, or use a later round pick and take a shot at some QB. I quess I just dont see this crop of QB's causing us to use a rd 1, 2, 3 pick...maybe we use a 4th - 7th this year. I also dont see us trading up and giving away picks to go after a hype QB in early rounds.

If we use the 99% plan I see it being a QB with little to no hype around him, it will be a lesser known guy.

Maybe Boomer will answer and go a different route with his view.

thanks ck as always.

Well, I guess what I would like to emphasize is that the choice is not necessarily ours to make. It's kind of like asking if the Dolphins will take Matt Leinart in the draft. I don't know, but the choice isn't really ours to make...because we're likely to be picking too late to get Leinart.

I guess a more specific answer to your question would be under the following conditions:

1. Jay Cutler plays lights out at the Senior Bowl, then runs like a 4.65 at the Combine.

2. Vince Young enters the draft and looks good at the Combine throwing side by side with more orthodox QBs.

3. We have the #15 pick in the draft.

4. The following players are available at #15: Jay Cutler, Vince Young, Eric Winston, Marcus McNeil, Rodrique Wright, Demeco Ryans, Santonio Holmes, LaRon Landry, Darnall Bing, Max Jean-Gilles, Ashton Yobouty (sp?), and Claude Wroten...

My Result: I would take Jay Cutler.

Team Result: They would have to be tempted by Cutler or Young as well, though Demeco Ryans would look good to them as well.

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 02:37 PM
Well, I guess what I would like to emphasize is that the choice is not necessarily ours to make. It's kind of like asking if the Dolphins will take Matt Leinart in the draft. I don't know, but the choice isn't really ours to make...because we're likely to be picking too late to get Leinart.

I guess a more specific answer to your question would be under the following conditions:

1. Jay Cutler plays lights out at the Senior Bowl, then runs like a 4.65 at the Combine.

2. Vince Young enters the draft and looks good at the Combine throwing side by side with more orthodox QBs.

3. We have the #15 pick in the draft.

4. The following players are available at #15: Jay Cutler, Vince Young, Eric Winston, Marcus McNeil, Rodrique Wright, Demeco Ryans, Santonio Holmes, LaRon Landry, Darnall Bing, Max Jean-Gilles, Ashton Yobouty (sp?), and Claude Wroten...

My Result: I would take Jay Cutler.

Team Result: They would have to be tempted by Cutler or Young as well, though Demeco Ryans would look good to them as well.

Ok, cool....thats what I am getting at. I realize its not any of our decisions. I realize I am asking anyone who may have a better feel on the front office to quess.

So you take Cutler becuase he is a QB and fills perhaps the biggest need. I accept that. I am sure others choose Young, but thats not the point. The point is a QB is taken in 1st round.

But you mention the Front Office while tempted at QB, might take a non-QB (LB from Alabama). So thats where my question is going. If you played this "Team Results" all the way out, at what point do you think they take a QB this year, or do they pass on it completely and go FA, or current roster QB and see where the chips fall next draft for a QB that decided to stay? Next years QB pool seems to be more talented and deeper.

Do they keep having a QB available, but pass, because in their mind a better player is available and they wait till next year to draft a QB based on underclassmen that stay behind?

Thanks abunch....I know until all the underclassmen declare or stay its totally quess work and muddy....but its for me to have you, and Boomer, and anyone else who seem to be better equiped to speculate and read your written views and see if they stack up to what I am thinking.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:29 PM
Any news on Drew Stanton, QB Mich State, on if he is coming out? Boomer, what are your thoughts on him?

He's meant to be staying in.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:30 PM
Boomer, question......based on QB's coming out and those staying for another year....if you are in the Miami Front Office, what do you do?

Do you take one of these upcoming draft QB's?
Or do you continue building in other areas of the team one more year, and pass on them and continue to use other veteran FA (Kitna, etc) or current roster NFL QBs (including Sage, Lemon) and wait another year to draft a young gun (if we somehow have a high enough draft pick and we trade up, etc).

You know I like Quinn and just think he is a type that has the pedigy, build, toughness and solid coaching (a Montana/Marino type where the hype isnt making him all-world, but he turns out to be a perfect match and leader for years). Not to mention the Notre Dame link and all!

I just dont think we trade up this year to get that type of QB, and not sure if the mid-round QB's offer enough potential to go after them over another area of need. It seems next year (doesnt it always) may be deeper and better at the QB spot.

Not saying Miami can get or will trade up (expect we wont have a top 15 draft pick next year for trading up purposes) for Quinn next year by waiting, but is he the type an organization would wait for in comparison to the quys that are coming out?

Can you or should you build in the other areas of need and forgo a young QB one more year?

Well I certainly don't reach for a player. We have enough holes elsewhere to do that. If I don't like a QB, then I look to adda Ngata, a Youboty or a Huff, a Greenaway or a Hawk, a Jean-Gilles, etc.

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 03:32 PM
Well I certainly don't reach for a player. We have enough holes elsewhere to do that. If I don't like a QB, then I look to adda Ngata, a Youboty or a Huff, a Greenaway or a Hawk, a Jean-Gilles, etc.

Ok, so from your perspective its not out of the realm of possibility that we dont draft a QB in any round this year?

I know youre speaking of 1st round talent above...but asking you to extend beyond the 1st round based on QB's you say are staying put.

thanks again...

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:47 PM
With all these QB arguments and answer the following questions:

Who are the top 5 QB's in this draft and what do you like and dislike about them?

Who of those 5 are the FINS high on and most likely to draft?

What are the Fins priorities and how (what round or FA) will they look to solve them?

THANKS...YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Matt Leinart.
2. Jay Cutler
3. Brodie Croye.
4. Charlie Whitehurst
5. Darrell Hackney

The list goes downhill after the top 2 and most people would rate the rest in differing slots. I have always liked Croyle, I think Whitehurst is too good to be this mediocre and Hackney has a tonne of talent.

They - Miami - apparently like Leinart and Cutler. And Brady Quinn, but I'm working on who is actually declared.

Priorities are wide reciever, quarterback, left tackle, guard, defensive tackle, defensive end, linebacker, cornerback and safety.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:47 PM
Quinn said last night on ESPN-News he is definetly staying..

He will lead the mighty ND to a National Championship----and a Heisman Trophy for himself.

It's absolutely the right decision.

dolphan117
12-09-2005, 03:49 PM
1. Matt Leinart.
2. Jay Cutler
3. Brodie Croye.
4. Charlie Whitehurst
5. Darrell Hackney

The list goes downhill after the top 2 and most people would rate the rest in differing slots. I have always liked Croyle, I think Whitehurst is too good to be this mediocre and Hackney has a tonne of talent.

They - Miami - apparently like Leinart and Cutler. And Brady Quinn, but I'm working on who is actually declared.

Priorities are wide reciever, quarterback, left tackle, guard, defensive tackle, defensive end, linebacker, cornerback and safety.

You think we need a wr more than a qb? Could you elaborate on that a little?

Edit-Or were they not in order of importance?

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:49 PM
Boom, what do you think about this player agreement rumor going on? Do you see these guys like Quinn, Jacobs, even Antonio Cromartie who are probably staying but then decide to leave because of the new agreement?

PS- Speaking of Cromartie do you think he may come out anyways even though he was hurt this season due to the lack of great corners in this draft. He could pull a Willis Mcgahee and have a nice combine and someone would take a shot at him in the first.

Going with Cromartie first, no he won't come out at all. He doesn't have the body of work that McGahee had and Willis finished a season. Antonio knackered his knee in the spring.

I think Jacobs might, but Quinn will stay.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:52 PM
Ok, so from your perspective its not out of the realm of possibility that we dont draft a QB in any round this year?

I know youre speaking of 1st round talent above...but asking you to extend beyond the 1st round based on QB's you say are staying put.

thanks again...

I think if they draft a QB it'll be on day 1 if they do. They have a project already in Lemon. Why bring 2 projects in and waste one of just 5 picks on an area of need elsewhere.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:53 PM
You think we need a wr more than a qb? Could you elaborate on that a little?

Edit-Or were they not in order of importance?

Yep - in no specific order.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 03:54 PM
Essentially QB is the biggest area of need, but not at the risk of cocking the rest of the team up by reaching for a player especially when there is a tonne of talent at other positions prime for the plucking.

dolphan117
12-09-2005, 03:55 PM
Yep - in no specific order.

Any chance we could get you to put them in order of priority?

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 04:00 PM
Essentially QB is the biggest area of need, but not at the risk of cocking the rest of the team up by reaching for a player especially when there is a tonne of talent at other positions prime for the plucking.

Thanks...cool. While I am excited to watch the last 4 regular season games and hope for the best for the playoff possibility.....I really look forward to this offseason, and QB or Not, all the other improvements that will take shape and see Saban's masterplan take root.

Thanks again...

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 04:01 PM
So you take Cutler becuase he is a QB and fills perhaps the biggest need. I accept that. I am sure others choose Young, but thats not the point. The point is a QB is taken in 1st round.

No, I take Cutler because among the players left on the board that I discussed, the only ones that tempt me away from Cutler are Demeco Ryans and maybe Rod Wright (though there's questions about whether or not he fits our D).

This isn't about taking a QB in Round 1 or not taking a QB in Round 1. You should stop making it about that. It's about taking the best player that fits in with the team and as Saban puts it, has the most long term value to the organization. If Cutler and Young aren't there when we pick, we're not going to reach and pick up one of the other guys like Pinegar, Hackney, etc just because we want to take a QB in Round 1.

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 04:05 PM
No, I take Cutler because among the players left on the board that I discussed, the only ones that tempt me away from Cutler are Demeco Ryans and maybe Rod Wright (though there's questions about whether or not he fits our D).

This isn't about taking a QB in Round 1 or not taking a QB in Round 1. You should stop making it about that. It's about taking the best player that fits in with the team and as Saban puts it, has the most long term value to the organization. If Cutler and Young aren't there when we pick, we're not going to reach and pick up one of the other guys like Pinegar, Hackney, etc just because we want to take a QB in Round 1.

Ck, wasnt trying to put words in your mouth, and definately am not taking the position of making this about a QB in round one or not. My posts are exactly the opposite.

I am a best player available that fits type person, etc. I simply see other areas of need, and could see the front office passing on a QB completly this draft. My view seems to be counter to others that say we need a QB so bad, we have to draft a QB this year in some round.

But, as I see it, until the top junior QB's declare for this draft, I think next years QB pool is richer and deeper.

Thats all....appreciate your feedback.

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 04:12 PM
Wow Boom, Croyle and Whitehurst strike me as high on that list of top 5 you have. To me, Whitehurst strikes me as a heartbreaker. Croyle could be a heart breaker too. He looks like a pro, but gets injured a lot. Someone is going to be happy with him and subsequently very unhappy with him...I think. Were you not including Young on that list because you think he'll stay in school? Or do you really rate him below Croyle, Whitehurst, and Hackney?

I had Drew Olson starting to climb up my own boards but then he laid a stinker on the national stage against USC...and that pretty much is a career habit that you want to stay away from at this point IMO...because that is definitely his MO, lay the stinker just when it matters most. Pinegar really turned me off in that La Tech game. It was like in the span of a day or two, two of my top guys just took a nose dive. I guess that leaves Hackney, Croyle...maybe Shockley, his leadership and effect on the team really impress me, and as Keith has pointed out before he's shown some real signs of not being the run-first kind of guy that he might initially seem like.

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 04:16 PM
Ck, wasnt trying to put words in your mouth, and definately am not taking the position of making this about a QB in round one or not. My posts are exactly the opposite.

I am a best player available that fits type person, etc. I simply see other areas of need, and could see the front office passing on a QB completly this draft. My view seems to be counter to others that say we need a QB so bad, we have to draft a QB this year in some round.

But, as I see it, until the top junior QB's declare for this draft, I think next years QB pool is richer and deeper.

Thats all....appreciate your feedback.

Well it just seems like every time one of us answers you're like "Ok so then we do take a QB in round 1" and then we clarify and its like "Ok so we pass on QBs in round 1 because we have other needs" etc...and I'm trying to tell ya man, if the right QB is there and the right other players are not, we'll take the QB, if the right QB isn't there we won't, and if the right QB is there but there's also an unbelievably talented other player there that probably shouldnt have fallen, we'll take him and not the QB.

As far as targeting whether or not we get one QB, I think it is safe to say that the staff will be targeting to come out of this draft with one QB, they just won't know which one or where they take him until the picks start coming in. Nobody can develop a fail safe specific draft strategy before the picks start coming in. All you can do is grade and rank, then when your pick is in, pick according to your grades and ranks.

KB21
12-09-2005, 04:17 PM
Just looking at who the Dolphins have brought in via trade (Cleo Lemon) and who they have brought in for workouts (Casey Printers), it definitely looks like mobility is going to be an aspect the Dolphins look for in their quarterback. Now, I don't think mobility will ever outrank passing ability on their list, but it seems like their ideal quarterback may be one that brings the mobility aspect to the field. Young brings that, but I don't think he brings the type of passing ability the team needs.

Probably the best package of passing skills and mobility is Jay Cutler. I can see Miami, in a weak draft for quarterbacks, taking a corner and seeing what they can do with a developmental project in the mid rounds at the quarterback position. If they can find a Charlie Frye type, I think they would take him in the third to fourth round area.

BigDogsHunt
12-09-2005, 04:23 PM
Well it just seems like every time one of us answers you're like "Ok so then we do take a QB in round 1" and then we clarify and its like "Ok so we pass on QBs in round 1 because we have other needs" etc...and I'm trying to tell ya man, if the right QB is there and the right other players are not, we'll take the QB, if the right QB isn't there we won't, and if the right QB is there but there's also an unbelievably talented other player there that probably shouldnt have fallen, we'll take him and not the QB.

As far as targeting whether or not we get one QB, I think it is safe to say that the staff will be targeting to come out of this draft with one QB, they just won't know which one or where they take him until the picks start coming in. Nobody can develop a fail safe specific draft strategy before the picks start coming in. All you can do is grade and rank, then when your pick is in, pick according to your grades and ranks.

Ck, you and boomer are the only two to answer my initial question. It was not about taking a QB in round 1, it was whether you thought the front office would pass on a QB completely based on where we were picking and what talent at the QB spot could be there each round.

More to the point, I think with the underclassmen that Boomer feels are staying put waters-down the QB position this coming draft. I personally dont see the remaining "good" QB's available falling to us, and dont think we give picks away to trade up. Therefore it is within the realm of possibility that this front office doesnt select a QB, just like last year, and simply banks on next years QB draft being richer.

Sorry if you misunderstood my first question or each answer. I appreciate your responses and no issues from my end.

fishypete
12-09-2005, 04:24 PM
No, I take Cutler because among the players left on the board that I discussed, the only ones that tempt me away from Cutler are Demeco Ryans and maybe Rod Wright (though there's questions about whether or not he fits our D).

This isn't about taking a QB in Round 1 or not taking a QB in Round 1. You should stop making it about that. It's about taking the best player that fits in with the team and as Saban puts it, has the most long term value to the organization. If Cutler and Young aren't there when we pick, we're not going to reach and pick up one of the other guys like Pinegar, Hackney, etc just because we want to take a QB in Round 1.

CK..I totally agree...as I've staed many times...Saban and Mueller aren't going to throw away the future for one player....especially a QB. If a "special" player fall to them....thats one thing...but they won't spend the farm...or in this case...the future of the team.

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 04:54 PM
Just looking at who the Dolphins have brought in via trade (Cleo Lemon) and who they have brought in for workouts (Casey Printers), it definitely looks like mobility is going to be an aspect the Dolphins look for in their quarterback. Now, I don't think mobility will ever outrank passing ability on their list, but it seems like their ideal quarterback may be one that brings the mobility aspect to the field. Young brings that, but I don't think he brings the type of passing ability the team needs.

Probably the best package of passing skills and mobility is Jay Cutler. I can see Miami, in a weak draft for quarterbacks, taking a corner and seeing what they can do with a developmental project in the mid rounds at the quarterback position. If they can find a Charlie Frye type, I think they would take him in the third to fourth round area.

If I had to rank the attributes Keith, I would put them thus:

#1. Armstrength
#2a. Mobility
#2b. Size (durability)
#4a. Decision-making
#4b. Accuracy

That is how I'd set it up. Throughout everything armstrength seems to be a chief controlling factor in their decision-making at the position. From there, Linehan (not necessarily Saban) has shown a preference for size and mobility, but I honestly can't pick one from the other with any kind of conviction. Linehan seems to like them both but will sacrifice one of the other. Decision-making and accuracy are the other pair that are interchangeable to Linehan. The way his offense is set up, he can make your decisions for you basically (look what's happening to Daunte now, he has to make the decisions now and he implodes). At the same time, Linehan has always shown that accuracy, while always looked for in a QB, in relative terms can be made a little irrelevant by a deep cannon and mobility.

The problem when people start arguing these kinds of rankings is everyone's like "oh but accuracy is the most important because if he can't hit the broad side of a barn..." etc. Think of the rankings a weightings in a mathematical equation. If you weight a score of 1 through 10 for all the attributes, weight armstrength with a 30% weighting, mobility with 20%, size with 20%, decision-making with 15%, and accuracy with a 15% weighting, a guy with an 8 for armstrength and a 3 for accuracy will end up rated the same as a guy with 9 for accuracy and 5 for armstrength...all other things being equal.

But, if I had to weight it, that's where I'd put things...30% armstrength, 20% mobility, 20% size, 15% decision-making, 15% accuracy.

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:19 PM
Wow Boom, Croyle and Whitehurst strike me as high on that list of top 5 you have. To me, Whitehurst strikes me as a heartbreaker. Croyle could be a heart breaker too. He looks like a pro, but gets injured a lot. Someone is going to be happy with him and subsequently very unhappy with him...I think. Were you not including Young on that list because you think he'll stay in school? Or do you really rate him below Croyle, Whitehurst, and Hackney?

I had Drew Olson starting to climb up my own boards but then he laid a stinker on the national stage against USC...and that pretty much is a career habit that you want to stay away from at this point IMO...because that is definitely his MO, lay the stinker just when it matters most. Pinegar really turned me off in that La Tech game. It was like in the span of a day or two, two of my top guys just took a nose dive. I guess that leaves Hackney, Croyle...maybe Shockley, his leadership and effect on the team really impress me, and as Keith has pointed out before he's shown some real signs of not being the run-first kind of guy that he might initially seem like.

You know mate, it's like pinning the tail on the donkey after Leinart and Cutler. I am a bit of a Croyle homer - really like the kid. I just think Whitehurst has potentially everything and I just can't believe he can be that pants with all that skill. I know Keith likes DJ.......I just want to see him start more than 9 career games. But I do agree with him that he seems to be rising and with you in that he has done well to hone his run-first mentality.

ckparrothead
12-09-2005, 05:25 PM
Your right, until the Senior Bowl and Combine we really aren't going to get a very clear picture of the guys behind Cutler and Leinart. Were you excluding Young from your top 5 due to staying in school or is he just not in your top 5?

Boomer
12-09-2005, 05:51 PM
I was just working on who was definitely in. I think Young will be in and then I'd have to look at whether he's 2 or 3.

Where'd you put him?

fearthefins
12-09-2005, 06:21 PM
Hey boom what do you think of travis wilson wr Oklahoma.Did not have a great year due to a fr Qb

Awsi Dooger
12-09-2005, 08:08 PM
It was a fact that Hester was having trouble with the system. He is not stupid by any means. He's just a very slow learner, and most of all, he was very stubborn with change. He also was having a terrible time catching the ball.

Also I think Hester requested to try defense, and Coker went with it. That was indeed a big mistake. They should have used him primarily at Rb.

There was someone here who knew Hester personally and said the same thing, that he was smart enough. I'm really rooting for him to make it. He makes so many phenomenal plays, like against FSU in the 2004 opener when he blocked a FG in the middle of the 4th quarter that would have put the game away for FSU. Miami was already trailing 10-3 and no way they were scoring twice with Brock Berlin at QB. Keeping the game 10-3 allowed for the one drive that tied the game and Frank Gore won it in OT.

I'm hoping Coker moves Hester to RB. I hate to compare anyone to Reggie Bush but Hester could have that type of explosiveness and versatility, some plays at HB and others in the slot or outside at WR. His first game as a freshman Hester was used at RB and looked breathtaking after adjusting to a swing pass, catching it effortlessly, then streaking down the sideline. As a Canes fan for 30+ years I'm used to awesome athletes but that play opened my mouth in disbelief and not just for a few seconds.

Miami has a very crowded backfield next season with Tyrone Moss coming back off injury, plus Charlie Jones and Derron Thomas, who are playing now. Then you've got the excellent talent of Andrew Johnson, who hurt his knee late last season but has shown signs of being the best of the group when healthy. So it would be quite a move for Coker to stick Hester in that mix, unless he doesn't think Moss will be ready next year, certainly a possibility.

Devin Hester may have moves like Desmond Howard, but Hester is MUCH bigger, in the 5-11, 190 range.

MiamiMan147
12-09-2005, 10:42 PM
I see Hester more as a WR who sometimes lines up at RB than the other way around. I don't think he's got the build to be an every down back, especially at the next level.

kastofsna120
12-09-2005, 10:54 PM
I see Hester more as a WR who sometimes lines up at RB than the other way around. I don't think he's got the build to be an every down back, especially at the next level.
he's got pretty much the same build as reggie bush

weisdolphins
12-09-2005, 11:15 PM
Hey Boomer what about Drew Stanton you think he stays of comes out for NFL

fishypete
12-09-2005, 11:45 PM
If I had to rank the attributes Keith, I would put them thus:

#1. Armstrength
#2a. Mobility
#2b. Size (durability)
#4a. Decision-making
#4b. Accuracy

That is how I'd set it up. Throughout everything armstrength seems to be a chief controlling factor in their decision-making at the position. From there, Linehan (not necessarily Saban) has shown a preference for size and mobility, but I honestly can't pick one from the other with any kind of conviction. Linehan seems to like them both but will sacrifice one of the other. Decision-making and accuracy are the other pair that are interchangeable to Linehan. The way his offense is set up, he can make your decisions for you basically (look what's happening to Daunte now, he has to make the decisions now and he implodes). At the same time, Linehan has always shown that accuracy, while always looked for in a QB, in relative terms can be made a little irrelevant by a deep cannon and mobility.

The problem when people start arguing these kinds of rankings is everyone's like "oh but accuracy is the most important because if he can't hit the broad side of a barn..." etc. Think of the rankings a weightings in a mathematical equation. If you weight a score of 1 through 10 for all the attributes, weight armstrength with a 30% weighting, mobility with 20%, size with 20%, decision-making with 15%, and accuracy with a 15% weighting, a guy with an 8 for armstrength and a 3 for accuracy will end up rated the same as a guy with 9 for accuracy and 5 for armstrength...all other things being equal.

But, if I had to weight it, that's where I'd put things...30% armstrength, 20% mobility, 20% size, 15% decision-making, 15% accuracy.

CK....I believe this is a far better way to judge a QB;

1- Accuracy

2- Decision making

3- arm strength

4- Mobility

5- Size


Accuracy is far important than any other factor....take a player like Favre, if he wasn't accurate with his passes....all he'd be is a large QB that knows when to throw the football and to whom, with great arm strength...but couldn't hit he target. There's plenty of QB's that have strong arms....plenty that were of a large nature...plenty that could make the right decisions..plenty that were mobile....but the ones that succeed are the ones that can throw and hit the receivers. Steve Young...wasn't a large QB...didn't have a real strong arm...but he was a mobile and very accurate and could hit the target after he made his decisions. One could say the same about Brady...while you wouldn't call him mobile...and you wouldn't say he has a rocket for an arm....he's deadly accurate after he makes his decision where to throw. I've heard Jaws say time after time...accuracy and decision making are the two most important items in a QB....thru the years he's not the only one to say that...it's a very popular concept.

kastofsna120
12-09-2005, 11:52 PM
Accuracy is far important than any other factor
then why in the world do you love vince young so much?

MiamiMan147
12-10-2005, 12:06 AM
he's got pretty much the same build as reggie bush

Hester is 15 lbs lighter, and Bush is already a tad light for an NFL back. I don't see Bush being a workhorse back in the NFL, which may be the biggest knock on him.

kastofsna120
12-10-2005, 12:14 AM
Hester is 15 lbs lighter, and Bush is already a tad light for an NFL back. I don't see Bush being a workhorse back in the NFL, which may be the biggest knock on him.
yeah, but if bush can play that role in USC's offense (sharing the ball as well as returning kicks/punts and lining up as receiver every once in a while), then hester should be able to do the same thing. he should put on some weight, and he can share the ball with tyrone moss

i'm listening to some guy on fox sports radio saying bush is overrated and all that. surprising, i never heard someone affiliated with the media say a single negative word about him

MonkeyDog
12-10-2005, 12:29 AM
surprising, i never heard someone affiliated with the media say a single negative word about him

They make up for it with his bro George.

ckparrothead
12-10-2005, 02:36 PM
I was just working on who was definitely in. I think Young will be in and then I'd have to look at whether he's 2 or 3.

Where'd you put him?

I pretty much have to put him at #3...but I feel like a whore doing it because I know I'm buying into the hype and not just doing it because I project him to be that great a quarterback. But I have to discount in my own likelihood of understanding the nature of his dangerousness as a QB...which is low (the likelihood), so I'm more sensitive to the market attitude toward him than my own.

I'd have it right now I guess at

1. Leinart
3. Cutler
4. Young
5.a&b. Croyle and Hackney

After that it's a bit of a mess between McNeal, Clemens, Whitehurst, Gradkowski, Pinegar, Basanez, Shockley, and Olson.

ckparrothead
12-10-2005, 02:38 PM
i'm listening to some guy on fox sports radio saying bush is overrated and all that. surprising, i never heard someone affiliated with the media say a single negative word about him

Hmm, well, given that he's supposed to be the next Barry Sanders and people are saying he's like this once in a generation prospect, yeah I would say he's overrated.

kastofsna120
12-10-2005, 02:41 PM
Hmm, well, given that he's supposed to be the next Barry Sanders and people are saying he's like this once in a generation prospect, yeah I would say he's overrated.
well, he said he'd struggle in the NFL

Jnaledu3
12-10-2005, 02:48 PM
I'd have it right now I guess at

1. Leinart
3. Cutler
4. Young
5.a&b. Croyle and Hackney



So you really think Young will go after Cutler? I just hope Young comes out so some fool coach (Dennis Green) takes him that picks before us and leaves us Cutler.

Which teams who are most likely to pick before us do you guys think will take a QB in the first?

I think Tennessee will take Leinart, Arizona will take Young, and we will take Cutler.

I see Houston, NYJ, and New Orleans all passing on QBs in the first. I think they will get one in the later rounds. Detriot could be in the mix though.

ckparrothead
12-10-2005, 02:50 PM
So you really think Young will go after Cutler? I just hope Young comes out so some fool coach (Dennis Green) takes him that picks before us and leaves us Cutler.

Which teams who are most likely to pick before us do you guys think will take a QB in the first?

I think Young gets taken before Cutler, but right now I have him rated below Cutler...I should probably have him rated higher but I can't bring myself to whore out that much to popular opinion.

Jnaledu3
12-10-2005, 02:55 PM
I think Young gets taken before Cutler, but right now I have him rated below Cutler...I should probably have him rated higher but I can't bring myself to whore out that much to popular opinion.

Hype is a powerful force in the draft. And Kiper is the King of hype. Lets just hope he puts Young before him.

Phinz4Life
12-10-2005, 02:56 PM
WR Steve Smith, eh? Good thing for Carolina.

They can draft him and confuse Delhomme into passing to another WR.

ckparrothead
12-10-2005, 04:05 PM
WR Steve Smith, eh? Good thing for Carolina.

They can draft him and confuse Delhomme into passing to another WR.

Wow. That's pretty funny dude. If I was drinking milk, I think it would be coming out my nose.


Hype is a powerful force in the draft. And Kiper is the King of hype. Lets just hope he puts Young before him.

"Hype" doesn't always have to be negative. A lof of people intrinsically consider "hype" to be reputation that isn't justified. I guess what I'm saying about Young is you can think of reputation as being what the market thinks of a guy. Risk control is controlling for risk by listening to the market. In my case, I don't WANT to put Young in the top 5 of QBs necessarily because I'm confused about his pro prospects...but I have to control risk so I listen to the market to some extent.

Boomer
12-10-2005, 04:06 PM
I pretty much have to put him at #3...but I feel like a whore doing it because I know I'm buying into the hype and not just doing it because I project him to be that great a quarterback. But I have to discount in my own likelihood of understanding the nature of his dangerousness as a QB...which is low (the likelihood), so I'm more sensitive to the market attitude toward him than my own.

I'd have it right now I guess at

1. Leinart
3. Cutler
4. Young
5.a&b. Croyle and Hackney

After that it's a bit of a mess between McNeal, Clemens, Whitehurst, Gradkowski, Pinegar, Basanez, Shockley, and Olson.

You watch the kid at North Texas State last night? What did you think?

caneaddict
12-10-2005, 04:35 PM
Boom and CK-

After D'Brick, I haven't seen much consensus on the O-Line rankings with Eric Winston fluctuating heavily. Personally I was VERY high on Winston coming into the season but now I would be real hesitant to grab him in the top half of the 1st. Not sure whether it's the UM sceme or Winston himself, but that unit has been torched way too often.

Anyway, I'm really curious to hear your takes on the top guys. Specifically Jonothan Scott, Joe Thomas and Marcus McNeil. Scott looks like he has all the necessary physical skills. With a coach like Houck, I think taking a guy that has the best physical base is best cause Houck can coach up the technique.

How does Joe Thomas compare to the top Linemen. Do you guys each have your own initial basic ranking of the top 5 O-Linemen at this point or is too early?

ckparrothead
12-10-2005, 05:08 PM
You watch the kid at North Texas State last night? What did you think?

Did not see him. Who are you referring to? Meager?

finz99
12-10-2005, 05:25 PM
Did not see him. Who are you referring to? Meager?

Barrick Nealy?

Boomer
12-10-2005, 05:45 PM
Did not see him. Who are you referring to? Meager?

Nah, Barrick Nealy. I was pretty impressed with what I saw.

Boomer
12-10-2005, 05:54 PM
Boom and CK-

After D'Brick, I haven't seen much consensus on the O-Line rankings with Eric Winston fluctuating heavily. Personally I was VERY high on Winston coming into the season but now I would be real hesitant to grab him in the top half of the 1st. Not sure whether it's the UM sceme or Winston himself, but that unit has been torched way too often.

Anyway, I'm really curious to hear your takes on the top guys. Specifically Jonothan Scott, Joe Thomas and Marcus McNeil. Scott looks like he has all the necessary physical skills. With a coach like Houck, I think taking a guy that has the best physical base is best cause Houck can coach up the technique.

How does Joe Thomas compare to the top Linemen. Do you guys each have your own initial basic ranking of the top 5 O-Linemen at this point or is too early?

It's a really great year for offensive linemen. I have been a fan of Ferguson's since his freshman season and he's well clear at the top of my list. I also like Thomas and Max Jean Gilles at Georgia I really like. Daryn Colledge I'm a fan of as well. I'm not so high on Scott as some others and actually I thought Winston was a better TE than LT. McNeil has been a bit up and down this year but finished strong. He's a mountain of a human being and as a run blocker he can absolutely dominate.

I think my top 5 LT's would be:
1 - Ferguson
2 - McNeil
3 - Justice
4 - Colledge
5 - Winston

But there are a barrell load of players that I would put in and around that area. Jean Gilles I would think will become a top flight G in the pros.


As an aside, it looks like Brian Calhoun and interestingly, Ohio St SS Donte Whitner are coming out.

HysterikiLL
12-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Boom, take it for what it's worth but I have good word in very close breath that Vince will stayhis senior season regardless of Rose Bowl result. Also, Blaylock is likely to leave early but his decision is not yet final. Just a few reliable words on campus from reliable sources.

Boomer
12-10-2005, 06:28 PM
Cheers dude. I have heard that about Blaylock. To my mind Young would be making a very good decision.

ckparrothead
12-10-2005, 06:35 PM
Ooooh, Barrick Nealy from TEXAS STATE. You were throwing me for a loop with the whole North Texas State thing. I didn't see the game but I meant to.

I think I'll be taking a look at the GMAC bowl with Jordan Palmer of UTEP up against Gradkowski with Toledo.

Phinz4Life
12-10-2005, 06:39 PM
Wow. That's pretty funny dude. If I was drinking milk, I think it would be coming out my nose.

It's the best joke I've had in lets see...forever.

Thanks. :D