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View Full Version : Man...when is this crap going to stop?



Pagan
12-07-2005, 02:06 PM
Yet another wonderful example....:shakeno:

"Y'all f@#ked it up tonight, Minneapolis" (http://blogs.citypages.com/pscholtes/2005/12/shooting_at_the.asp)

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 02:11 PM
I don't get it :shakeno:

What's the sence?

WharfRat
12-07-2005, 02:20 PM
Pure stupidity

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 03:12 PM
i dont get the point of this thread. is it to bash rap music?

so some people got shot. we gonna make a thread about everyone getting shot?

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 03:16 PM
i dont get the point of this thread. is it to bash rap music?

so some people got shot. we gonna make a thread about everyone getting shot?

Flip's DJ turned to the crowd, disgusted. "That **** is 1980s," he said. "*****, we in the 2000s. Nobody's fighting in the clubs no more. Come on, Minneapolis!"

He seems to get it.

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 03:21 PM
Flip's DJ turned to the crowd, disgusted. "That **** is 1980s," he said. "*****, we in the 2000s. Nobody's fighting in the clubs no more. Come on, Minneapolis!"

He seems to get it.


he seems to get what. why did u quote me. i read it.

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 03:22 PM
he seems to get what. why did u quote me. i read it.

You asked the question!

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 03:23 PM
You asked the question!


i asked what was the point of this thread. and that quote supposibly answered it?

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 03:25 PM
I would think it is about vilonce a rap concerts. Not a bash against Rap music.

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 03:27 PM
I would think it is about vilonce a rap concerts. Not a bash against Rap music.



Yet another wonderful example....:shakeno:


yea your probably right. sounds like it :rolleyes:


and theres just as much violence at a heavy metal concerts. theres crime everywhere in america. this thread is worthless.

WharfRat
12-07-2005, 03:43 PM
yea your probably right. sounds like it :rolleyes:


and theres just as much violence at a heavy metal concerts. theres crime everywhere in america. this thread is worthless.

Doesn't matter to me which venue the violence is in... it's all stupidity IMO.
Nothing against Rap or Metal... just against violence of this sort.

so...no...this thread isn't "worthless" ... however I feel the people who perpetrated this are.

Talos
12-07-2005, 03:45 PM
Random acts of violence at any type of concert has always blown my mind.

I've been to all kinds of venues and all kinds of shows and stuff like this happens at all of them. A little too much to drink and the music getting you going, and people lose all sense of morality and logical inhibitions.

It's sad.

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:04 PM
I would think it is about vilonce a rap concerts. Not a bash against Rap music.

Oh yeah, no such thing as mosh pits ever happen at rock/metal concerts!

Pagan
12-07-2005, 04:05 PM
yea your probably right. sounds like it :rolleyes:


and theres just as much violence at a heavy metal concerts. theres crime everywhere in america. this thread is worthless.
Nappy, I know your feelings are hurt because it's about rap....but you're full of you know what.

There is no violence at ALL like this at heavy metal concerts. Except for the ONE time that some lunatic killed Dimebag Darrell, there is NO shootings or mass brawls at metal shows. I think you really need to do some research before you say something like that.

It's attitudes like yours that will allow this nonsense to continue. "so some people got shot" was your exact quote. Yea, yea, we know you need to get shot to have "street cred", but let's be realistic here.

It's stupid, assinine behavior...and it ONLY happens at rap concerts. NO other musical genre has to deal with this nonsense, and it's NOT an isolated incident. It happens more than anyone in the rap community wants to admit.

And no, it wasn't to "bash" rap....it was maybe a wish that rap idiots stop this bull**** and stop killing each other.

But if you and the rest of the rap community want to ignore it, no problem. Sooner or later you'll all kill yourselves off and then stand there wondering why. :shakeno:


Oh yeah, no such thing as mosh pits ever happen at rock/metal concerts!
Again....name me one instance where someone was shot or stabbed at a mosh pit. Look hard, you won't be able to find it.

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 04:07 PM
i dont get the point of this thread. is it to bash rap music?

so some people got shot. we gonna make a thread about everyone getting shot?

At the risk of geting my head taken off...........
Its not like the rap industry as a whole has made much of an effort to promte peace and quite. I understand that many rapers are just telling the story of their life which I dont have a problem with at all. If you have had a good life and want to sing about it it will probably not be very contriversial, if you have had a very tough life and decide to rap about it will probably not be quite so happy. Like I said I dont have a probelm with that. The problem I have with some (not all) rapers is that they go out of there way to promote violence. There was a raper (I realy wish I could remeber who it was) who I saw do an interview and he said somthing like "People dont understand, im not like that at home. Im just a regular guy, I have a family and this whole persona is just an act. Its entertainment, people have to understand that. Its just entertainment. Im not realy a violent guy." I sat there and :shakeno: . This is not the real you, you arnt telling your life story but you are just raping about violence for the heck of it because its "entertainment"? I have a HUGE problem with that. I understand that all rapers dont do that, I just wish the industry would do more to promote solutions to problems (like violence) instead of just rap about it.
Note- This is just my opinion and I dont claim to know everything. ;)

Pagan
12-07-2005, 04:14 PM
The other difference is....when Dimebag was shot there was a HUGE outcry from the metal community to not let anything like that happen again. Dimebag memorial concerts are being held soon to commemorate one year since he was shot.

All this from ONE isolated incident. When's the last time there was an outcry against shootings at rap shows?

So please, don't insult our intelligence by trying to pass the buck off to rock shows, because it just doesn't happen.

ABrownLamp
12-07-2005, 04:21 PM
The other difference is....when Dimebag was shot there was a HUGE outcry from the metal community to not let anything like that happen again. Dimebag memorial concerts are being held soon to commemorate one year since he was shot.

All this from ONE isolated incident. When's the last time there was an outcry against shootings at rap shows?

So please, don't insult our intelligence by trying to pass the buck off to rock shows, because it just doesn't happen.

There's typically a faint-hearted "this needs to stop" plea from the some in the industry. I love rap, but personally, I think the artists at the shows believe this gives them street cred. As in "even my shows be gangsta"

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:24 PM
Again....name me one instance where someone was shot or stabbed at a mosh pit. Look hard, you won't be able to find it.

Does it really make a difference if someone is shot or just killed?


In 1996, Bernadette O'Brien, 17, was killed in a festival seating/mosh pit crowd crush at a Smashing Pumpkins concert in Dublin, Ireland. In 1997, a 16-year-old girl was killed similarily at a Die Toten Hosen concert in Stuettgart, Germany.

From the same article


Approximately 7,000 Woodstock ’94 fans sought first aid, alone.

I'm not saying rap concerts don't have violence, but pretty much all concerts do too.

Talos
12-07-2005, 04:25 PM
Nappy, I know your feelings are hurt because it's about rap....but you're full of you know what.

There is no violence at ALL like this at heavy metal concerts. Except for the ONE time that some lunatic killed Dimebag Darrell, there is NO shootings or mass brawls at metal shows. I think you really need to do some research before you say something like that.

It's attitudes like yours that will allow this nonsense to continue. "so some people got shot" was your exact quote. Yea, yea, we know you need to get shot to have "street cred", but let's be realistic here.

It's stupid, assinine behavior...and it ONLY happens at rap concerts. NO other musical genre has to deal with this nonsense, and it's NOT an isolated incident. It happens more than anyone in the rap community wants to admit.

And no, it wasn't to "bash" rap....it was maybe a wish that rap idiots stop this bull**** and stop killing each other.

But if you and the rest of the rap community want to ignore it, no problem. Sooner or later you'll all kill yourselves off and then stand there wondering why. :shakeno:


Again....name me one instance where someone was shot or stabbed at a mosh pit. Look hard, you won't be able to find it.

Pagan, I gotta disagree. I've been to concerts where I've seen someone stabbed with a broken bottle in a mosh pit. I've also seen someone start slamming someones head into the ground over and over in a pit at a Megadeth concert. To think violence only happens in Rap concerts shows you're being as naive as you always claim Budd is.

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:25 PM
The other difference is....when Dimebag was shot there was a HUGE outcry from the metal community to not let anything like that happen again. Dimebag memorial concerts are being held soon to commemorate one year since he was shot.

All this from ONE isolated incident. When's the last time there was an outcry against shootings at rap shows?

So please, don't insult our intelligence by trying to pass the buck off to rock shows, because it just doesn't happen.

They did all that because Dimebag was shot, and he was a legend. Some stupid fan who probably caused the scuffle getting shot, no one cares about. I'm not saying that's right, but that's just how it is.

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 04:26 PM
Oh yeah, no such thing as mosh pits ever happen at rock/metal concerts!

Mosh Pit? Shot?

UMMMMMM?

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:28 PM
Mosh Pit? Shot?

UMMMMMM?

Like I said, does it make a difference if someone is shot, or stomped to death?

Talos
12-07-2005, 04:31 PM
Violence at a concert is violence at a concert? Does it matter if you die by getting stampeded or if you die because someone shot you?

And for those who think that extreme violence only happens at rap concerts, let's not forget Altamont.

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 04:32 PM
Violence at any of this things is just plan dumb! Your right talos!

Gonzo
12-07-2005, 04:32 PM
Like I said, does it make a difference if someone is shot, or stomped to death?

I like most types of music including hiphop, but, ahh, do you really want to compare statistics? There is a problem, and to deny it is partially the reason it exists.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 04:33 PM
I've been to hundreds of shows in my life. Not one incident. These incidents you guys are pointing out are NOT commonplace. Come on now, be sensible. Things can happen at ANY large gathering of people.

And Talos, read my posts better...I never said there isn't violence at other shows. I said it's MINIMAL at rock and metal shows. MINIMAL. You can't deny that. How many times this year alone was someone shot at a rap show? For Pete's sake the freaking "artists" are shooting each other! When's the last time Metallica popped a cap in Megadeth? :lol:

But forget I said anything. Keep your heads in the sand, and it won't ever go away. Like I said, sooner or later they'll all kill each other off.



And for those who think that extreme violence only happens at rap concerts, let's not forget Altamont.
Jesus bro...that was FORTY years ago!


I like most types of music including hiphop, but, ahh, do you really want to compare statistics? There is a problem, and to deny it is partially the reason it exists.
Bingo. Someone gets it.

Philter25
12-07-2005, 04:34 PM
Like I said, does it make a difference if someone is shot, or stomped to death?

I think it kinda does.

When people are stomped to death, its usually by accident. Its pretty hard to organize 40 people to continually stomp someone knowing that they will kill them. Most of the time in mosh pits people dont realize someone is actually getting hurt.

When you shoot someone, you dont expect them to live. Its not an accident.

There is voilence everywhere, but its a DIFFERENT type of voilence. Getting dehydrated at Woodstock, getting trampled in a mosh pit, or catching an elbow by someone crowd surfing are all non-intentional things. Shooting someone in the head from 2 feet away isnt an accident.

Ive been to both type of concerts. Mosh pits, despite how they look, are not aggressively driven by anger, they are usually driven by the music and energy. If someone gets taken down hard in a mosh pit, he is usually helped up immediately and strangers and usually the guy who took him down make sure he is ok. At rap concerts, you can get into a fight if you bump into someone too hard. Its just a different scene and much different vibe at each place.

Thats not to say there are not exceptions to the norm. Im sure a few fights have been broken out in mosh pits and im sure a few gangs hung out at the lil bow wow concert...... but from my experiences those are the generalities I can make.

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:34 PM
How many times this year alone was someone shot at a rap show?

This is the first scenerio I've seen where someone was shot at a rap concert all year.

NJFINSFAN1
12-07-2005, 04:36 PM
I think it kinda does.

When people are stomped to death, its usually by accident. Its pretty hard to organize 40 people to continually stomp someone knowing that they will kill them. Most of the time in mosh pits people dont realize someone is actually getting hurt.

When you shoot someone, you dont expect them to live. Its not an accident.

There is voilence everywhere, but its a DIFFERENT type of voilence. Getting dehydrated at Woodstock, getting trampled in a mosh pit, or catching an elbow by someone crowd surfing are all non-intentional things. Shooting someone in the head from 2 feet away isnt an accident.

Great post!

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:37 PM
I think it kinda does.

When people are stomped to death, its usually by accident. Its pretty hard to organize 40 people to continually stomp someone knowing that they will kill them. Most of the time in mosh pits people dont realize someone is actually getting hurt.

When you shoot someone, you dont expect them to live. Its not an accident.

There is voilence everywhere, but its a DIFFERENT type of voilence. Getting dehydrated at Woodstock, getting trampled in a mosh pit, or catching an elbow by someone crowd surfing are all non-intentional things. Shooting someone in the head from 2 feet away isnt an accident.

Like Talos said, stabbing someone with a broken beer bottle or slamming their head on the ground, sounds pretty damn intentional. And how can you say accidental? Maybe I'm crazy, but when you leap around, kicking and flinging your arms everywhere, you'd think someone might get hurt.


I like most types of music including hiphop, but, ahh, do you really want to compare statistics? There is a problem, and to deny it is partially the reason it exists.

I'm not denying there's a problem, but I'm not gonna sit here and act like rap is the sole genre that has violence at it's concerts.

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 04:40 PM
This is the first scenerio I've seen where someone was shot at a rap concert all year.

What about the Vibe awards? Or was that last year?

Talos
12-07-2005, 04:41 PM
I'm just saying that you're painting rather broad strokes here. You're stereotyping a genre of music with a problem that isn't necessarily the case. Yes, there are problems with violence at "gangsta" rap concerts. Yes, there are problems with violence at a LOT of shows that have a mosh pit.

But to say that violence is prevalent at rap concerts and minimal at rock shows is stereotyping. If you wanted to break down data and statistics, I'd be willing to wager that there are plenty of rap artists without incidents and there are plenty of rock artists with larger numbers of incidents. Different performers draw different crowds. Like yourself, I've been to hundreds of concerts in my life, as I used to go to at least 1 show of some type a week. In my experience, violence exists pretty equally at all the shows I've been to.

As for the artists and their conflicts, that's a different issue altogether. Some of that is gang related in background, and that unfortunately won't go away.

And on a lighter note, Scott Stapp and 311 got in a brawl and last I checked neither of them are "gangsta" rap.

Philter25
12-07-2005, 04:41 PM
Like Talos said, stabbing someone with a broken beer bottle or slamming their head on the ground, sounds pretty damn intentional. And how can you say accidental? Maybe I'm crazy, but when you leap around, kicking and flinging your arms everywhere, you'd think someone might get hurt.

Read my last 2 paragraphs. I agree with a beer bottle and stuff like that, but mosh pits are generally music and energy driven, not anger driven...... most of the incidents involving them are non-intentional. You cant say the same for instances at rap concerts.

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:41 PM
What about the Vibe awards? Or was that last year?

You mean when Suge Knight was shot? Because last time I checked, that wasn't at a rap concert. This thread is about violence at concerts.

Talos
12-07-2005, 04:43 PM
Also, for those who think of the Woodstock issue as being "dehydration"

http://www.salon.com/ent/log/1999/07/29/rape/index.html

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 04:48 PM
You mean when Suge Knight was shot? Because last time I checked, that wasn't at a rap concert. This thread is about violence at concerts.

I know the vibe awards arnt an actuall concert but its a show with an audiance. If we are going to talk about the rap scene vs any other genra of music it shouldnt be confined to just what heppens at concerts anyway imo.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 04:48 PM
Just gotta sit back now and laugh at the rap apologists pointing fingers everywhere else - as usual - instead of admitting the problem is MUCH more prevalent at their shows than any other.

Oh well....


And on a lighter note, Scott Stapp and 311 got in a brawl and last I checked neither of them are "gangsta" rap.
Aside from the fact that no one in their right mind considers either one of them "rock", that was in a bar somewhere, not during a show. And last I saw...no one was shot, stabbed, broken bottled, etc. etc. etc. :tongue:

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:50 PM
I know the vibe awards arnt an actuall concert but its a show with an audiance. If we are going to talk about the rap scene vs any other genra of music it shouldnt be confined to just what heppens at concerts anyway imo.

It didn't happen at the awards...it happened at Kanye Wests party.

Talos
12-07-2005, 04:52 PM
Wow, I can't believe I just got called a "rap apologist". I think you'd be quite surprised if you met me.

Pagan, I just find your posts regarding this topic to be a little high and mighty. As if the rock music scene is superior, and all concert crime related issues rise out of the rap scene. It comes off as extremely arrogant and asinine.

backpacker
12-07-2005, 04:53 PM
Now that I think about it, there is no point in arguing this. Rap music doesn't generate the anger and cause people to shoot or stab each other. Think about it, things like that always happen from someone bumping into each other, or stepping on someone's shoes. And don't say the music makes that happen, because things like that occur everywhere. Hell it could happen at Walgreens. Rock music, on the other hand, does generate the violence. No one jumps around and flails their arms aimlessly because someone bumps into them, they do it cause the music gives them the energy to do it.

End of discussion

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 04:55 PM
Now that I think about it, there is no point in arguing this. Rap music doesn't generate the anger and cause people to shoot or stab each other. Think about it, things like that always happen from someone bumping into each other, or stepping on someone's shoes. And don't say the music makes that happen, because things like that occur everywhere. Hell it could happen at Walgreens. Rock music, on the other hand, does generate the violence. No one jumps around and flails their arms aimlessly because someone bumps into them, they do it cause the music gives them the energy to do it.

End of discussion



yes. im not even gonna commit on this rediculous thread again. stay in the 60s and believe what u want. i really dont give a ****

Pagan
12-07-2005, 05:00 PM
Wow, I can't believe I just got called a "rap apologist". I think you'd be quite surprised if you met me.

Pagan, I just find your posts regarding this topic to be a little high and mighty. As if the rock music scene is superior, and all concert crime related issues rise out of the rap scene. It comes off as extremely arrogant and asinine.
And Talos, YOU are coming off as arrogant and assinine in the fact that you can't understand that it has NOTHING to do with being "superior", and I NEVER said it didn't exist in the rock scene. Jesus, what has happened to basic comprehension? :shakeno:

I was JUST as angry when Dimebag was shot. When he was shot last year, my first reaction was NOT - like MOST in here right now - to point the finger and say "well, look at all the violence at rap concerts!"

Why don't you go back into the archives and find the thread that was posted in here about his shooting? You won't find a goddamn thing about rap show in there. The rock fans realized what happened and dealt with it amongst the community. No finger pointing, no blaming anyone else.

But it seems the general reaction whenever someone gets shot or killed at a rap event is "well, look at everyone else! We ain't the only ones!"

THAT comes off as extremely IGNORANT and assinine.


yes. im not even gonna commit on this rediculous thread again. stay in the 60s and believe what u want. i really dont give a ****
That's it man...keep it "real". :rolleyes:

I won't comment anymore either. Keep ignoring the problem and killing yourselves. No sweat off my back.

Martel
12-07-2005, 05:27 PM
Well I speak from experience cause I got shot in the leg at a rap show!! Crazy right? In Albuquerque NM of all places. But fools get trampled all the time at rock concerts.


WOODSTOCK 94 ANYONE???

Talos
12-07-2005, 05:41 PM
But it seems the general reaction whenever someone gets shot or killed at a rap event is "well, look at everyone else! We ain't the only ones!"


THAT comes off as extremely IGNORANT and assinine.


Uhm, but they aren't the only ones? That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying they are better or worse. I'm saying that it happens everywhere. Finger pointing at either side just shows a lack of thinking on the speakers behalf. If you feel that I'm "ignorant" for pointing out examples of it happening places other than rap concerts, thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. The reason I don't point out examples of it at rap concerts, hence you feeling I'm a "rap apologist", is that this thread was started with those examples and that finger pointing had already been done.

Concert violence is still violence. Like most violence, it isn't even looked upon with shock by the general populace anymore because of how many things have happened. I remember when the rape news came out about Woodstock 99 and peoples responses were "These kind of things happen at large gatherings. What do you expect?".

Pagan
12-07-2005, 05:47 PM
Uhm, but they aren't the only ones? That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying they are better or worse. I'm saying that it happens everywhere. Finger pointing at either side just shows a lack of thinking on the speakers behalf. If you feel that I'm "ignorant" for pointing out examples of it happening places other than rap concerts, thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. The reason I don't point out examples of it at rap concerts, hence you feeling I'm a "rap apologist", is that this thread was started with those examples and that finger pointing had already been done.
First of all, I didn't say YOU were ignorant, I said that that response is ignorant.


Concert violence is still violence. Like most violence, it isn't even looked upon with shock by the general populace anymore because of how many things have happened. I remember when the rape news came out about Woodstock 99 and peoples responses were "These kind of things happen at large gatherings. What do you expect?".
Exactly, and the orginal intent of this thread wasn't to single out the rap community. The debate grew into that from an apathetic response by some rap fans. If you look at the title of the thread, rap isn't mentioned at all. And when I said "yet another wonderful example" that wasn't about rap either. It was about violence.

But of course IMMEDIATELY it had to be turned that way by the rap apologists. (And that doesn't include you, by the way)

If you keep reading back, the point is to own up to it and do something about it. But that seems to keep slipping through the cracks, or it's being ignored altogether.

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 05:50 PM
And when I said "yet another wonderful example" that wasn't about rap either. It was about violence.

But of course IMMEDIATELY it had to be turned that way by the rap apologists. (And that doesn't include you, by the way)



i doubt that. :rolleyes: but it doesnt matter what i think anyways.

but there are tons of people shot everday, with the way the world is now a days, someone getting shot isnt worth a thread.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 05:51 PM
i doubt that. :rolleyes: but it doesnt matter what i think anyways.
Doubt it all you want. Personally, like I said before...I could give a chinaman's behind if all the rap people shoot themselves, but sooner or later innocent people will get killed.


but there are tons of people shot everday, with the way the world is now a days, someone getting shot isnt worth a thread.
You're right. Like I said...keep ignoring it. :rolleyes:

Talos
12-07-2005, 05:52 PM
In your defense, you're correct. It was actually NJ who started all the arguing, and then smartly left the thread.

He was the person who said
"I would think it is about vilonce a rap concerts. Not a bash against Rap music."

darkmistress
12-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Well I speak from experience cause I got shot in the leg at a rap show!! Crazy right? In Albuquerque NM of all places. But fools get trampled all the time at rock concerts.


WOODSTOCK 94 ANYONE???

Yeah I'd much rather be actively shot by someone than make the choice of going in to a mosh pit and dealing with the risks that it involves :rolleyes:

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 05:54 PM
You're right. Like I said...keep ignoring it. :rolleyes:



i dont ignore it. i have that stuff like this happens. why not make a thousand different threads a day about people being shot then?

Talos
12-07-2005, 05:54 PM
but there are tons of people shot everday, with the way the world is now a days, someone getting shot isnt worth a thread.

This is a statement, that I'd never defend. If you think that someones life, no matter who they are, isn't worth a post a message board, then somewhere along the lines, you lost a hold on reality.

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 05:54 PM
Yeah I'd much rather be actively shot by someone than make the choice of going in to a mosh pit and dealing with the risks that it involves :rolleyes:


yup your right. violence isnt violence unless it involves a gun. :rolleyes:

RunningBackGuru
12-07-2005, 05:56 PM
:shakeno:

Talos
12-07-2005, 05:57 PM
Yeah I'd much rather be actively shot by someone than make the choice of going in to a mosh pit and dealing with the risks that it involves :rolleyes:

Not all mosh pit participants are in by their choice. I've seen quite a few girls get trampled because they wanted to be near the stage and a pit opened up.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 05:59 PM
yup your right. violence isnt violence unless it involves a gun. :rolleyes:
Not defending the violence that occurs in the mosh pits...but what I think DM is saying is that you have a CHOICE to go into the pit. Once in the pit, you know the risks of possibly getting hurt.

You stay OUT of the pit, then you don't have any risk.

At least that's what I think she meant.


Not all mosh pit participants are in by their choice. I've seen quite a few girls get trampled because they wanted to be near the stage and a pit opened up.
True, but that's their choice also. I'm in pretty good shape, but if I go see Slayer I don't go anywhere NEAR the front of the stage. ;)

darkmistress
12-07-2005, 06:03 PM
yup your right. violence isnt violence unless it involves a gun. :rolleyes:

yeah, that's what I said :rolleyes: It's all about choice... everyone knows the risks of being in a mosh pit, pact tight together with hundreds/thousands of people, of course it's going to be dangerous. But you make that choice, you can still enjoy the concert by sitting/standing behind the mosh pit. It shouldn't be a matter of having to avoid going to a concert all together simply because someone else might decide it's time to ruin someone elses life.

WharfRat
12-07-2005, 06:04 PM
i dont ignore it. i have that stuff like this happens. why not make a thousand different threads a day about people being shot then?

Dude.... really? :shakeno:

Talos
12-07-2005, 06:08 PM
True, but that's their choice also. I'm in pretty good shape, but if I go see Slayer I don't go anywhere NEAR the front of the stage. ;)

Just thinking back on a situation. I took my girl to see a Sevendust show a few years back. The show was cheap, the beer tasted like piss, and it seemed like some of the people went to the show just to get into a fight.

We were near the front of the stage, (my fiancee was a DJ at the time and we had been backstage before hand so we figured we'd get up front for the show), and about halfway through the performance a pit opened up right behind us. We avoided the pit, and after a song or two, the pit turned into more of a brawl. I ended up basically having to fight my way out of the club, fearing for my girls well being.

After that I never went back in a pit. Before that I used to mosh at every opportunity. It wasn't until that show that I realized how big of an *** I had probably been at some point. Generally when people mosh, they have no regard for those around them, and I know I used to be the same.

In regards to your Slayer comment, most violent moshing I've ever seen was at a Motorhead show I went to. That was where the guy got stabbed by someon with a broken bottle.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 06:14 PM
In regards to your Slayer comment, most violent moshing I've ever seen was at a Motorhead show I went to. That was where the guy got stabbed by someon with a broken bottle.
Amazing...especially since I don't equate moshing with Motorhead.

Lately moshing is ridiculous anyway. People actually started moshing at the Kamelot show I went to a couple of weeks ago, but it was quickly stopped when they realized how stupid they looked moshing to a band that essentially sounds like old Queensryche. :shakeno:

Talos
12-07-2005, 06:17 PM
Funniest piece of moshing I ever saw (and also somewhat bloody and violent, but in a more friendly way...if that seems possible), was at a Matchbox 20 concert. It was a local show down here before they were big. When the concert was over, one of the guys who was moshing the whole show was telling everyone goodbye at the door, and his whole face was covered in blood. (looked like he probably broke his nose)

Sometimes people mosh just to let out aggression. As long as everyone is willing, shrug, who am I to stop them.

Mindwarp
12-07-2005, 06:29 PM
first of all LMAO @ talos being a rap apologist. Im trying to picture Talos as a "hip-hop or rap head" and its not working out.

now I'm into music, Rock, Rap, Classical, but mostly I guess im into drum and bass.
In a rock concert in Pompano beach dont remember who was playing cause really I just went cause my boys where going, Anyways I got in a huge fight with some dude cause according to him I didnt belong, He suckerd punched me and wer got into a brawl, before security got there my boys took me off him and we dissapeered into the crowd. The dude left and came back but before he found me was arrested. WITH A GUN. yeah thats right. i was almost a statistic(story of my life) one thing I can probably say about Rock vs Rap concerts is Security is tighter at the rock concerts i been to. Thats it. Its not the people, its not the music.

Growing up I got in more fights with rockers then "gangstas" fights lead to some serious pain (use of chain wallets and skateboards as weponds).

to try and say this only happend in one genre of music or "type of people" cause really thats what it boild down to is plain ignorant.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 06:33 PM
first of all LMAO @ talos being a rap apologist. Im trying to picture Talos as a "hip-hop or rap head" and its not working out.
Again...like I said before....wasn't talking about Talos. ;)

NaboCane
12-07-2005, 06:43 PM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.

Rocky Raccoon
12-07-2005, 06:47 PM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.

Nice post!

WharfRat
12-07-2005, 06:47 PM
Funniest piece of moshing I ever saw (and also somewhat bloody and violent, but in a more friendly way...if that seems possible), was at a Matchbox 20 concert. It was a local show down here before they were big. When the concert was over, one of the guys who was moshing the whole show was telling everyone goodbye at the door, and his whole face was covered in blood. (looked like he probably broke his nose)

Sometimes people mosh just to let out aggression. As long as everyone is willing, shrug, who am I to stop them.

Moshing at a Matchbox 20 show??? :lol:

jnewmant
12-07-2005, 06:48 PM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.:yeahthat:

WharfRat
12-07-2005, 06:49 PM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.

BRAVO!!!!! :clap:

backpacker
12-07-2005, 06:52 PM
Wow, Nabocane, seems like you put alot of thought into that. The thing is with me, I never really bought into the whole "I'll blow you away *****, you stupid snitch" garbage. It just seemed really pointless to me. I'm glad you said "rap" and not "hip-hop" because people often mistake hip-hop for the violent style of rap. I'm more into the music that can tell a story to me, whether it be rock, hip-hop, or even country. When someone can paint a picture in my mind with just words, I take it as talent. Not someone rantily raving about their "ice" or "rides". My "hip-hop friends" often make fun of me because I'm a fan of Godsmack's acoustic album, because alot of them are the "Rock sucks" people. And the same thing goes on vice versa. Everyone has their music preferences, but it seems really stupid when someone constantly bags one they don't like and refuse to ever give it a try.

NaboCane
12-07-2005, 06:58 PM
Wow, Nabocane, seems like you put alot of thought into that. The thing is with me, I never really bought into the whole "I'll blow you away *****, you stupid snitch" garbage. It just seemed really pointless to me. I'm glad you said "rap" and not "hip-hop" because people often mistake hip-hop for the violent style of rap. I'm more into the music that can tell a story to me, whether it be rock, hip-hop, or even country. When someone can paint a picture in my mind with just words, I take it as talent. Not someone rantily raving about their "ice" or "rides". My "hip-hop friends" often make fun of me because I'm a fan of Godsmack's acoustic album, because alot of them are the "Rock sucks" people. And the same thing goes on vice versa. Everyone has their music preferences, but it seems really stupid when someone constantly bags one they don't like and refuse to ever give it a try.

Right. I don't have even the smallest problem with the music itself, other than for the lyrics that promote violence or disrecpect to women, or glorify a life of excesses. And I only really have a problem with that because of how that tends to influence young boys who need positive reinforcements to overcome their disadvantaged circumstances, not negatives.

Dolfan5000
12-07-2005, 07:14 PM
Ok, ok, ok. I figured I'd say something. My music scene is Metalcore, Metal, StraightEdge Metal and the shows that I go to are pretty HEAVY. Hardcore dancing(about letting energy go with the music, seen more from straightedge kids)/ Moshing (more seen from dumb drunk ****ers who're just looking for a fight) are two different things. AND, if a fight breaks out at a Metal show, it's not going to last long, groups and kids will break it up. At a show like that that I've gone to for like 6 years now they're hasn't been one sober person who was willingly fighting another person because of a disagreement outside of the show. And when it is violence, it's not serious like shooting, stabbing, or mutilating another person. It's a bare knuckle fight for like a minute at the most. But whatever, what do I know?

Pink_Dove
12-07-2005, 07:14 PM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.


Post of the week Nabo.

The only thing I'm kind of reluctant to agree with is that Elton John comment.
I actually could see him 'pop a cap' in someone else's ***...
Nervermind... :tongue:

I especially think those last 4 lines are brilliant and sadly true.

GRAPEAPE
12-07-2005, 07:15 PM
Right. I don't have even the smallest problem with the music itself, other than for the lyrics that promote violence or disrecpect to women, or glorify a life of excesses. And I only really have a problem with that because of how that tends to influence young boys who need positive reinforcements to overcome their disadvantaged circumstances, not negatives. Thank you for being a voice of reason. Music is a creative outlet for most people, however I see more and more people using it as an outlet to get rich. Not to be creative and express yourself, regardless of the genre. For the most part I think those are the people that are being manipulated into lining the pockets of someone else.

backpacker
12-07-2005, 07:23 PM
That's the thing though, the ones who are in it just for money, usually are the biggest names in music. And it sucks.

darkmistress
12-07-2005, 07:37 PM
That's the thing though, the ones who are in it just for money, usually are the biggest names in music. And it sucks.

and they rarely have any talent, just in the right place at the right time... it's amazing what connections can do for you

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 08:16 PM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.

Wow, great post.

K-train
12-07-2005, 08:24 PM
This is not good for our community (yes I am black.)

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 08:47 PM
This is not good for our community (yes I am black.)


whats not good in "our" community. someone getting shot at a concert across country isnt good for the community?

whats not good for "our" community is people dieing within the community from robberies, from fights, from gangs. this **** dont affect my community 1 bit.


also, i wanna apologize about the Death doenst need a thread, i didnt mean to come off as insensitive, i just find it weird that thousands of people die every day, and the one that is chosen to post is about a rap concert, that had nothing to do with the music. specially with a comment like "yet another wonderful example"


on thanksgiving, this 19 year old white kid, killed his little brother, his grandparents, and his parents about 15 miles from me. now what if i told u he was listening to Heavy Metal and then i said "yet another wonderful example"

what are u Metal fans gonna think?


also, my apologies to DarkMistress, i read your comments wrong. my bad.

CirclingWagons
12-07-2005, 09:01 PM
Yet another wonderful example....:shakeno:

"Y'all f@#ked it up tonight, Minneapolis" (http://blogs.citypages.com/pscholtes/2005/12/shooting_at_the.asp)
What's the O/U on shootings for next year's Source Awards?

cnc66
12-07-2005, 09:09 PM
What's the O/U on shootings for next year's Source Awards?

poop stirrer...:goof:

Pagan
12-07-2005, 09:38 PM
also, i wanna apologize about the Death doenst need a thread, i didnt mean to come off as insensitive, i just find it weird that thousands of people die every day, and the one that is chosen to post is about a rap concert, that had nothing to do with the music. specially with a comment like "yet another wonderful example"
How about you apologize to me also, and to yourself for being too thick headed to read that I said I meant SENSELESS VIOLENCE when I said yet another wonderful example, or are you just to stubborn to let that sink in?

If I wanted to be derogatory towards rap, I'd have said "yet another RAP concert with violence..."

Use your brain before you open your mouth and insert words into someone else's.


on thanksgiving, this 19 year old white kid, killed his little brother, his grandparents, and his parents about 15 miles from me. now what if i told u he was listening to Heavy Metal and then i said "yet another wonderful example"

what are u Metal fans gonna think?
I'd say he was an ******* who was giving metal a bad name, something you can't seem to do in the same situation.

rothshunger
12-07-2005, 10:02 PM
How about you apologize to me also, and to yourself for being too thick headed to read that I said I meant SENSELESS VIOLENCE when I said yet another wonderful example, or are you just to stubborn to let that sink in?

If I wanted to be derogatory towards rap, I'd have said "yet another RAP concert with violence..."

Use your brain before you open your mouth and insert words into someone else's.


I'd say he was an ******* who was giving metal a bad name, something you can't seem to do in the same situation.If you feel you need someone to apologize to you to make you feel better I will :rofl3: lol

FinsNYanksFan13
12-07-2005, 10:14 PM
Did Dimebag Darryl get shot at a night club? Hey man let's face, whether rap or rock or country, violence happens. There's no escaping it but when you see it brewing, get out of dodge, that's all I can say!

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 10:19 PM
How about you apologize to me also, and to yourself for being too thick headed to read that I said I meant SENSELESS VIOLENCE when I said yet another wonderful example, or are you just to stubborn to let that sink in?


If I wanted to be derogatory towards rap, I'd have said "yet another RAP concert with violence..."

Use your brain before you open your mouth and insert words into someone else's.



I'd say he was an ******* who was giving metal a bad name, something you can't seem to do in the same situation.


something i cant do? i missed the part where i backed them for shooting someone.


and i didnt insert words into your mouth. show me where i miss quoted u. you say "yet another wonderful example" with nothing else. how the **** is anyone suppose to know what your talking about.

Pagan
12-07-2005, 10:47 PM
something i cant do? i missed the part where i backed them for shooting someone.
Man, you just don't get it, do you? I said I'd say he was an idiot for giving metal a bad name. YOU said "people get shot, no big deal". Can you not see the difference?


and i didnt insert words into your mouth. show me where i miss quoted u. you say "yet another wonderful example" with nothing else. how the **** is anyone suppose to know what your talking about.
How? Maybe when I told you what I meant...more than once, and you keep using that line to mean I was directing it at rap. Again, you just don't get it do you? :shakeno:


If you feel you need someone to apologize to you to make you feel better I will :rofl3: lol
Hey look...it's Mr. Come in Late to the Discussion and Take Something Out of Context! :lol:

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 10:53 PM
Man, you just don't get it, do you? I said I'd say he was an idiot for giving metal a bad name. YOU said "people get shot, no big deal". Can you not see the difference?

so im suppose to say "hey that idiot is giving rap a bad name" even when it has nothing to do with the actual music?




How? Maybe when I told you what I meant...more than once, and you keep using that line to mean I was directing it at rap. Again, you just don't get it do you? :shakeno:

actually, i do get it. the last few times i quoted that line i was defending myself because that could of meant anything when i first came in here.

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 11:06 PM
[/b]

so im suppose to say "hey that idiot is giving rap a bad name" even when it has nothing to do with the actual music?





actually, i do get it. the last few times i quoted that line i was defending myself because that could of meant anything when i first came in here.

That would be a much more defensable position if rapers didnt glorify shootings. (a la fifty cent promoting himself for geting shot 9 times. Talk about forgeting to duck.)

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 11:11 PM
That would be a much more defensable position if rapers didnt glorify shootings. (a la fifty cent promoting himself for geting shot 9 times. Talk about forgeting to duck.)


and country singers glorify drinking, riding horses and big trucks, you think people go out a do that because of the song?


stupid argument anyways. Movies and television glorify everything much worse than any music.

jnewmant
12-07-2005, 11:17 PM
and country singers glorify drinking, riding horses and big trucks, you think people go out a do that because of the song?Nappy i'm not trying to step on your toes here but here where i'm from in the mississippi delta the answer to your question is yes, the majority of the people here listen to all the country music junk and they eximplify the message, all of them drive big trucks and don't care if their kids start going out drinking when they're 16 because that's what ummm. george straight does, but other than that i'm not getting into this argument

CirclingWagons
12-07-2005, 11:19 PM
and country singers glorify drinking, riding horses and big trucks, you think people go out a do that because of the song?


stupid argument anyways. Movies and television glorify everything much worse than any music.

Yeah, but none of those activities cause harm to anyone else...except drinking, and rappers sing about that too(Henny, Cristal, etc.)
with that being said i'd listen to rap 100 times before I put on country...lesser of 2 (musical) evils I guess

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 11:24 PM
and country singers glorify drinking, riding horses and big trucks, you think people go out a do that because of the song?

Drinkin, riding horses and big trucks dont tend to kill people........ Well maby if you combine the first with one of the other 2... And yes I do think that if someone realy buys into a certain type of music without thinking about it that it can influesnce there actions. It can become a lifestyle as opposed to just somthing you listen to if you dont think about it and just get caught up in the scene. No, I am not saying listening to gangster rap is going to make you kill people but I do think the lyrics you have constantly bouncing around in your head can influence your view of life. I dont think all rap is bad and actually like what you can do with it, I just wish there were more rapers who were realy trying to be a voice for change as opposed to encouraging violence and demeaning women. I do have to say that I have a real problem with how a lot of rapers portray women as nothing more than objects but I guess that a little off topic.

GRAPEAPE
12-07-2005, 11:26 PM
and country singers glorify drinking, riding horses and big trucks, you think people go out a do that because of the song? WHOA WHOA WHOA Now I would argue that they never say a word about drinking and "slapping their *******", or ride their horses on a drive by. For the most part country is art(with the exception of a few POP/Country stars that are ruining the music} not the money making scheme that Rap music is, Yes I have read the entire post, and Yes you are way off base in your line of thinking. People do things based on many different influences. Maybe Music is one of them, Not in country musics case sorry bout your luck on that one. Rap is the case here, sorry I see kids walking around the mall acting like everyone they see on an album cover. Thinking they are 14 year old pimps. Give me a break. No other genre of music has this sort of influnece NONE. That's the hard truth take it or leave it. I am all for taking a stance on something you believe in but to believe in this kind of stuff is ignorant, your are making youself look stupid just to try and win an arguement with PAGAN. NEWSFLASH your losing the arguement. Senseless violence is just that senseless, no cause for it at all. And that is what a random shooting of ANY kind is.

Edit: I agree Tv is worse than music could ever think of being.

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 11:28 PM
Nappy i'm not trying to step on your toes here but here where i'm from in the mississippi delta the answer to your question is yes, the majority of the people here listen to all the country music junk and they eximplify the message, all of them drive big trucks and don't care if their kids start going out drinking when they're 16 because that's what ummm. george straight does, but other than that i'm not getting into this argument

Like I said it becomes a lifestyle thing. Rap still isnt going to make you just go out and shoot people but the lifstlye can be an issue.

Nappy Roots
12-07-2005, 11:31 PM
WHOA WHOA WHOA Now I would argue that they never say a word about drinking and "slapping their *******", or ride their horses on a drive by. For the most part country is art(with the exception of a few POP/Country stars that are ruining the music} not the money making scheme that Rap music is, Yes I have read the entire post, and Yes you are way off base in your line of thinking. People do things based on many different influences. Maybe Music is one of them, Not in country musics case sorry bout your luck on that one. Rap is the case here, sorry I see kids walking around the mall acting like everyone they see on an album cover. Thinking they are 14 year old pimps. Give me a break. No other genre of music has this sort of influnece NONE. That's the hard truth take it or leave it. Your a 19 year old kid who doesn't know sh!t about sh!t. I am all for taking a stance on something you believe in but to believe in this kind of stuff is ignorant, your are making youself look stupid just to try and win an arguement with PAGAN. NEWSFLASH your losing the arguement. Senseless violence is just that senseless, no cause for it at all. And that is what a random shooting of ANY kind is.


probably single handly the worst post ive ever read. http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

GRAPEAPE
12-07-2005, 11:34 PM
probably single handly the worst post ive ever read. http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif Then I am right you are as closed minded as you make yourself out to be. No one else can have a POV?

jnewmant
12-07-2005, 11:35 PM
Like I said it becomes a lifestyle thing. Rap still isnt going to make you just go out and shoot people but the lifstlye can be an issue.but the lifestyle that ganster rap embodies can in fact put you in that position, rapping about getting into the drug "game" and what not and some people are too stuipid to realize it's just music, just like you said it's a lifestyle thing and i honestly hate the crap, i really don't know why anybody would want to listen to the trash. I got five G's in my pocket and i just slapped ten ******* and popped a cap in twenty mo fo's *****. if you think this trash breeds nothing but hate and crime then you're crazy. (not you dolphan117) just people in general

rothshunger
12-07-2005, 11:36 PM
Hey look...it's Mr. Come in Late to the Discussion and Take Something Out of Context! :lol: ha I've been here the whole time just didn't feel like getting into which music was better:sleep: but seriously why not talk about the person or persons who got shot if you want to talk about something important instead of hoping one group of people kill each other off.:shakeno:

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 11:39 PM
WHOA WHOA WHOA Now I would argue that they never say a word about drinking and "slapping their *******", or ride their horses on a drive by. For the most part country is art(with the exception of a few POP/Country stars that are ruining the music} not the money making scheme that Rap music is, Yes I have read the entire post, and Yes you are way off base in your line of thinking. People do things based on many different influences. Maybe Music is one of them, Not in country musics case sorry bout your luck on that one. Rap is the case here, sorry I see kids walking around the mall acting like everyone they see on an album cover. Thinking they are 14 year old pimps. Give me a break. No other genre of music has this sort of influnece NONE. That's the hard truth take it or leave it. Your a 19 year old kid who doesn't know sh!t about sh!t. I am all for taking a stance on something you believe in but to believe in this kind of stuff is ignorant, your are making youself look stupid just to try and win an arguement with PAGAN. NEWSFLASH your losing the arguement. Senseless violence is just that senseless, no cause for it at all. And that is what a random shooting of ANY kind is.

Edit: I agree Tv is worse than music could ever think of being.

Who... Calm down there GRAPEAPE, not saying I disagree with the post but puting it like that dosnt realy help the conversation. When people tell me I dont know s*** about s*** I dont tend to want to listen to whatever they have to say. Even if they have a point.

dolphan117
12-07-2005, 11:40 PM
but the lifestyle that ganster rap embodies can in fact put you in that position, rapping about getting into the drug "game" and what not and some people are too stuipid to realize it's just music, just like you said it's a lifestyle thing and i honestly hate the crap, i really don't know why anybody would want to listen to the trash. I got five G's in my pocket and i just slapped ten ******* and popped a cap in twenty mo fo's *****. if you think this trash breeds nothing but hate and crime then you're crazy. (not you dolphan117) just people in general

Thats pretty much what I meant when I said the lifestyle can become an issue.

GRAPEAPE
12-07-2005, 11:44 PM
but the lifestyle that ganster rap embodies can in fact put you in that position, rapping about getting into the drug "game" and what not and some people are too stuipid to realize it's just music, just like you said it's a lifestyle thing and i honestly hate the crap, i really don't know why anybody would want to listen to the trash. I got five G's in my pocket and i just slapped ten ******* and popped a cap in twenty mo fo's *****. if you think this trash breeds nothing but hate and crime then you're crazy. (not you dolphan117) just people in general

The trash you speak of is a gimmic, it appeals to young people because it's larger than life, the normal person just can't go out and do those kind of things. I am just guessing here but I would say 75% of it is made up B.S., but impressionable young people buy into it because it is thrust into their face by the Tv, the Big screen, and the radio, and it all looks so great, good looking women, fancy cars, money, who doesn't want that. Everyone wants it to a certain degree but young people see it , and see it, and see it, finally it becomes like an alternate reality.

GRAPEAPE
12-07-2005, 11:46 PM
Who... Calm down there GRAPEAPE, not saying I disagree with the post but puting it like that dosnt realy help the conversation. When people tell me I dont know s*** about s*** I dont tend to want to listen to whatever they have to say. Even if they have a point. Agreed.

Nappy Roots: sorry for that don't know nothing line, I was on a roll, it's edited out

jnewmant
12-07-2005, 11:55 PM
The trash you speak of is a gimmic, it appeals to young people because it's larger than life, the normal person just can't go out and do those kind of things. I am just guessing here but I would say 75% of it is made up B.S., but impressionable young people buy into it because it is thrust into their face by the Tv, the Big screen, and the radio, and it all looks so great, good looking women, fancy cars, money, who doesn't want that. Everyone wants it to a certain degree but young people see it , and see it, and see it, finally it becomes like an alternate reality.yeah i know it's a gimmic and that's another thing that gets me, you see so many young people buying into this crap yet since the big execs are lining their pockets they don't care if everything they portray misleads people purposfully especially young people who's minds alot of times are like play dough it really is disgusting, if every gangster rapper came out tomorrow and said they were never going to sing again i'd rejoice

Muck
12-08-2005, 12:01 AM
Approximately 7,000 Woodstock ’94 fans sought first aid, alone.

There were 350,000 people there. It was a 3-day event in the middle of August (hot)....in the middle of nowhere (sort of).

Basically, 2% of people needed medical attention.....for whatever reason (dehydration, illness, etc). Nowhere near indicative of a problem with violence IMO. That's suprising, considering how difficult it is to enforce rules or law in that type of setting. 150,000 (43%) didn't even purchase tickets.

CirclingWagons
12-08-2005, 12:01 AM
yeah i know it's a gimmic and that's another thing that gets me, you see so many young people buying into this crap yet since the big execs are lining their pockets they don't care if everything they portray misleads people purposfully especially young people who's minds alot of times are like play dough it really is disgusting, if every gangster rapper came out tomorrow and said they were never going to sing again i'd rejoice

if every gangster rapper came out tomorrow and said they were never going to sing again i'd rejoice
they don't "sing" anyways...but i know what you mean

tucker
12-08-2005, 12:10 AM
why dont you all just come out and say what you know you want to say...stop hiding behind the bushes and just say it...You know what i mean

Nappy Roots
12-08-2005, 12:13 AM
why dont you all just come out and say what you know you want to say...stop hiding behind the bushes and just say it...You know what i mean


dont even bother. its not worth it.

tucker
12-08-2005, 12:15 AM
WHOA WHOA WHOA Now I would argue that they never say a word about drinking and "slapping their *******", or ride their horses on a drive by. For the most part country is art(with the exception of a few POP/Country stars that are ruining the music} not the money making scheme that Rap music is, Yes I have read the entire post, and Yes you are way off base in your line of thinking. People do things based on many different influences. Maybe Music is one of them, Not in country musics case sorry bout your luck on that one. Rap is the case here, sorry I see kids walking around the mall acting like everyone they see on an album cover. Thinking they are 14 year old pimps. Give me a break. No other genre of music has this sort of influnece NONE. That's the hard truth take it or leave it. I am all for taking a stance on something you believe in but to believe in this kind of stuff is ignorant, your are making youself look stupid just to try and win an arguement with PAGAN. NEWSFLASH your losing the arguement. Senseless violence is just that senseless, no cause for it at all. And that is what a random shooting of ANY kind is.

Edit: I agree Tv is worse than music could ever think of being.country music is art but rap music or hiphop music isnt? no other music genre has this type of influence? bull crap

tucker
12-08-2005, 12:16 AM
dont even bother. its not worth it.you know its wanting to come out tho...you can see it in the way its typed

Quelonio
12-08-2005, 12:18 AM
I hate to come in too late to an ongoing discussion, but reducing it to music and the influence that music might or might not have.... I think we all have seen that this is not true, to put an example that is directly related, when people blame marylin manson for school shootings... It is not really about that, it is about economy and about race. The relationships and situations in which SOME people that are a big audience for this kind of music have to live in, is one that I am sorry but none of us white people can or will understand.
THe music exists because it voices the concerns of the community, it might to us people that are outside of it, sound like it condones it, but for other people it might have more to do with describing it (it happens and as such it should be described). Every culture has it's heros, every culture (or subculture) has it's myths, they come from different things, like where are you standing in terms of economy, or whatever, art furthers this images and speaks to people in terms that they want or hate to listen (depending on the artists' intention).
Hip hop culture is one of the most important and interesting movements that you can find, but at the same time it is something that to a level does not belong to us white people (and we know how easy it is to judge something that you don't understand). This violence should not exist, blaming the violence on the artistic movement that is just a reflection in itself from the economic situation, and racial relationships that a whole community is living, that is just not right... not true...

To put it like this, rap is not responsible for the violence, the violence is responsible for rap, rap as a movemente is constructed to speak and denounce this violence. Not to create it, but to ilustrate it.

(and to say that rap is not art, come on.... Rap not only is art, it is probably one of the most important art movements of this century, and I don't even like it that much)

Muck
12-08-2005, 12:20 AM
In my little hometown of 16,000, they've had two rap shows the past month with two national, albeit washed-up, acts. Both of them ended with riots and shootings. At the last one, a cop was helping break up the riot and ended up getting shot by an unknown assailant.

I'm not one to generalize. But hip hop by far stuggles with violence the most. It's not even close. I don't think the lyrical content overall is nearly as violent as it was 10 years ago. But it's not gone either.

Some people have the wrong idea about mosh pits. 99% of people in them aren't trying to hurt one another. There's no fighting. When a guy goes down, he gets helped up. It's kinda like Oklahoma drills with music.

Nappy Roots
12-08-2005, 12:20 AM
you know its wanting to come out tho...you can see it in the way its typed


no doubt

CirclingWagons
12-08-2005, 12:20 AM
why dont you all just come out and say what you know you want to say...stop hiding behind the bushes and just say it...You know what i mean
what do you mean by "bushes?"...just curious

Nappy Roots
12-08-2005, 12:22 AM
In my little hometown of 16,000, they've had two rap shows the past month with two national, albeit washed-up, acts. Both of them ended with riots and shootings. At the last one, a cop was helping break up the riot and ended up getting shot by an unknown assailant.

I'm not one to generalize. But hip hop by far stuggles with violence the most. It's not even close. I don't think the lyrical content overall is nearly as violent as it was 10 years ago. But it's not gone either.

Some people have the wrong idea about mosh pits. 99% of people in them aren't trying to hurt one another. There's no fighting. When a guy goes down, he gets helped up. It's kinda like Oklahoma drills with music.



:shakeno: ive been to about 10 rap concerts, and never had a riot or shooting.

CirclingWagons
12-08-2005, 12:23 AM
country music is art but rap music or hiphop music isnt? no other music genre has this type of influence? bull crap

country music is art
never

Muck
12-08-2005, 12:30 AM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.

Wow nice.

Dale Gribble would be proud. ;)

dolphan117
12-08-2005, 12:35 AM
I hate to come in too late to an ongoing discussion, but reducing it to music and the influence that music might or might not have.... I think we all have seen that this is not true, to put an example that is directly related, when people blame marylin manson for school shootings... It is not really about that, it is about economy and about race. The relationships and situations in which SOME people that are a big audience for this kind of music have to live in, is one that I am sorry but none of us white people can or will understand.
THe music exists because it voices the concerns of the community, it might to us people that are outside of it, sound like it condones it, but for other people it might have more to do with describing it (it happens and as such it should be described). Every culture has it's heros, every culture (or subculture) has it's myths, they come from different things, like where are you standing in terms of economy, or whatever, art furthers this images and speaks to people in terms that they want or hate to listen (depending on the artists' intention).
Hip hop culture is one of the most important and interesting movements that you can find, but at the same time it is something that to a level does not belong to us white people (and we know how easy it is to judge something that you don't understand). This violence should not exist, blaming the violence on the artistic movement that is just a reflection in itself from the economic situation, and racial relationships that a whole community is living, that is just not right... not true...

To put it like this, rap is not responsible for the violence, the violence is responsible for rap, rap as a movemente is constructed to speak and denounce this violence. Not to create it, but to ilustrate it.

(and to say that rap is not art, come on.... Rap not only is art, it is probably one of the most important art movements of this century, and I don't even like it that much)

I agree with part of this. I do think that a lot of rap got its start because of violence that has hapened and not the other way around. As I said in an earler post I dont have a probelm with people telling the story of thier lives. Many rapers have had ***** lives and I dont have a problem with them telling that story. What I have a problem with is the rapers/entertainers who glorify violence. I will go back to the interview that I mentioned in that same post where the raper said somthing like "People dont understand this is all an act. Im not like this at home, I have a family and this is just entertainment. People have to understand I dont actually shoot people its just entertainment" This was an interview from a while back so thats not a dirrect quote but its close because it just jumped out at me. To me that is indefensable, to just promote that kind of violence as entertainment just dosnt help anyone. I also agree that rap/hip hop is without question an art. No less so than any other type of music.
Whats your take on the telling a life story vs just raping about violence thing Nappy?

Note-I also said in my first post that I dont know everything and this is just my opinion. That still stands. ;)

Nappy Roots
12-08-2005, 12:44 AM
Whats your take on the telling a life story vs just raping about violence thing Nappy?


well, lieing or just telling a story that isnt your life happens in all music. the same way actors dont act like they do on the big screen, they do it for entertainment.

like i said before, TV is much much worse than any kind of music. who cares about rap when TV is that much worse. do you guys want crime off TV? i would suspect not.

Quelonio
12-08-2005, 12:51 AM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.

True... to a point.It is true that the whole idea gets clouded by economic interests of certain people, and that it would seem that it is just a mass of information being sent to someone who is already in a crappy situation...

Well then, why is the information, or the glorification what is to blame for this whole thing? I am sorry but I just don't see it like that, is it a factor? yea, but it is not the deciding factor in the long run.

Why do we never hear Barry Manilow tell Elton John that he will put a cap in his ***? because that is not the reality of either one of their lifes. Neither one of them grew up in a project facing first the poverrty of it, and second the completely clear racial divide. Take Outkast for example, there you have a band made out of two guys, one of them who for whatever reason got the oportunity to leave and free himself from all the racial divide that he might have found in a different place, he got the oportunity to open himself. His rap is not the same, it opened up a lot, he cant talk about popping anything in anyone's anything because it is not his reality, his reality is different.

I am sorry but speaking about rap as irresponsible and music to be blamed about anything and everything with the young, black american youth, is just plain wrong. Rap merely describes it, if your reality is gangs, violence, being thrown aside by a majoritarian and different race, and you find a way to voice this, to speak to this, to even feel proud about it.. You will. Because you want to feel proud, because this is your life.

We can't understand it, we never will, because it is impossible to stand is someone else's feet, it is however very easy to say you are overreacting, it is not all that bad, there is a light in the end of the tunnel, when you are outside, when life shines from our whiteness, and allows us to move along with everything behind us. Not true for everyone, and I would expect them to talk about it, I would expect them to be truthfull about it, and they are.

It will take a lot of look inward, from the people that are in this culture, and from the people outside that are judging them to not have to look inside and see how much they are also responsible for this. WHat is true is that it is an issue that goes far far far beyond the music, it is an issue of race, of poverty and social inequality.

(I never thought I would be defending rap anywhere, dang, I am writing this while I listene to Lay lady lay by Bod Dylan :D )

Nappy Roots
12-08-2005, 12:55 AM
True... to a point.It is true that the whole idea gets clouded by economic interests of certain people, and that it would seem that it is just a mass of information being sent to someone who is already in a crappy situation...

Well then, why is the information, or the glorification what is to blame for this whole thing? I am sorry but I just don't see it like that, is it a factor? yea, but it is not the deciding factor in the long run.

Why do we never hear Barry Manilow tell Elton John that he will put a cap in his ***? because that is not the reality of either one of their lifes. Neither one of them grew up in a project facing first the poverrty of it, and second the completely clear racial divide. Take Outkast for example, there you have a band made out of two guys, one of them who for whatever reason got the oportunity to leave and free himself from all the racial divide that he might have found in a different place, he got the oportunity to open himself. His rap is not the same, it opened up a lot, he cant talk about popping anything in anyone's anything because it is not his reality, his reality is different.

I am sorry but speaking about rap as irresponsible and music to be blamed about anything and everything with the young, black american youth, is just plain wrong. Rap merely describes it, if your reality is gangs, violence, being thrown aside by a majoritarian and different race, and you find a way to voice this, to speak to this, to even feel proud about it.. You will. Because you want to feel proud, because this is your life.

We can't understand it, we never will, because it is impossible to stand is someone else's feet, it is however very easy to say you are overreacting, it is not all that bad, there is a light in the end of the tunnel, when you are outside, when life shines from our whiteness, and allows us to move along with everything behind us. Not true for everyone, and I would expect them to talk about it, I would expect them to be truthfull about it, and they are.

It will take a lot of look inward, from the people that are in this culture, and from the people outside that are judging them to not have to look inside and see how much they are also responsible for this. WHat is true is that it is an issue that goes far far far beyond the music, it is an issue of race, of poverty and social inequality.

(I never thought I would be defending rap anywhere, dang, I am writing this while I listene to Lay lady lay by Bod Dylan :D )




:clap: Great Post!

CirclingWagons
12-08-2005, 12:59 AM
(I never thought I would be defending rap anywhere, dang, I am writing this while I listene to Lay lady lay by Bod Dylan)

what album was that on? I've got the 3 greatest hits albums and in "Lay Lady Lay" and "Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You" his voice sounds so different

Quelonio
12-08-2005, 01:40 AM
Nashville Skyline, though it was written to be part of Midnight Cowboy's soundtrack

Buddwalk
12-08-2005, 03:27 AM
Rap Vs Metal Round 1 :lol:

LtDan
12-08-2005, 07:28 AM
yea your probably right. sounds like it :rolleyes:


and theres just as much violence at a heavy metal concerts. theres crime everywhere in america. this thread is worthless.Well, IMO, Rap is worthless and Heavy Metal RULES!!!!

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 09:52 AM
You guys are all wrapped around the axle in this discussion.

The point of the general disgust with the rap culture's active promotion of the violence we see and read about among members of its industry is that it is institutionalized in that industry.

It's born of the justified anger and frustration, and the proclivity to violence of urban youth; that factor is then used and perpetuated by the moguls in that industry, who set people against each other to fuel controversy, which sells CD's.

Don't kid yourself. When was the last time you heard about Barry Manilow threatening to "pop a cap" in Elton John's *** because they compete for the same audience? When did you ever catch a rumor that Journey was gonna do a drive-by outside a party hosted by the lead singer of Rush?

This enmity between rap stars may have its roots in male posturing and excess testosterone, but it is cleverly used by those who stand to make the most bucks from the publicity all that nonsense generates.

It is a malicious hoax, perpetrated on young blacks and others who listen to this music and buy into the violence inherent in the music, the culture and the attitudes of the participants.

By supporting it with their purchase dollars, people who are manipulated by this hoax serve to perpetuate it, and to make it more prevalent; because those who profit from this are pretty smart, and don't think it has escaped their notice that their little scheme is working very well.

So, if you want to support the continued manipulation to further anger and violence of young men who are already angry and ready to explode, keep buying and supporting this music. You are helping "The Man" play his most insidious joke yet - that of not only creating a whole new form of enslavement for poor, angry minorities, but of profiting handsomely from it as well.

Keep buying into it. It'll keep making some pricks very happy and rich up in their penthouse offices, and it will perpetuate the downward socio-economic spiral of poor American minorities by inspiring yet more division and violence among themselves.


So young, so angry. Damn that rap music!

NJFINSFAN1
12-08-2005, 10:01 AM
So young, so angry. Damn that rap music!

:lol:

GRAPEAPE
12-08-2005, 10:04 AM
So young, so angry. Damn that rap music! Great, Get everyone fired up again:cry:

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 10:05 AM
True... to a point.It is true that the whole idea gets clouded by economic interests of certain people, and that it would seem that it is just a mass of information being sent to someone who is already in a crappy situation...

Well then, why is the information, or the glorification what is to blame for this whole thing? I am sorry but I just don't see it like that, is it a factor? yea, but it is not the deciding factor in the long run.

Why do we never hear Barry Manilow tell Elton John that he will put a cap in his ***? because that is not the reality of either one of their lifes. Neither one of them grew up in a project facing first the poverrty of it, and second the completely clear racial divide. Take Outkast for example, there you have a band made out of two guys, one of them who for whatever reason got the oportunity to leave and free himself from all the racial divide that he might have found in a different place, he got the oportunity to open himself. His rap is not the same, it opened up a lot, he cant talk about popping anything in anyone's anything because it is not his reality, his reality is different.

I am sorry but speaking about rap as irresponsible and music to be blamed about anything and everything with the young, black american youth, is just plain wrong. Rap merely describes it, if your reality is gangs, violence, being thrown aside by a majoritarian and different race, and you find a way to voice this, to speak to this, to even feel proud about it.. You will. Because you want to feel proud, because this is your life.

We can't understand it, we never will, because it is impossible to stand is someone else's feet, it is however very easy to say you are overreacting, it is not all that bad, there is a light in the end of the tunnel, when you are outside, when life shines from our whiteness, and allows us to move along with everything behind us. Not true for everyone, and I would expect them to talk about it, I would expect them to be truthfull about it, and they are.

It will take a lot of look inward, from the people that are in this culture, and from the people outside that are judging them to not have to look inside and see how much they are also responsible for this. WHat is true is that it is an issue that goes far far far beyond the music, it is an issue of race, of poverty and social inequality.

(I never thought I would be defending rap anywhere, dang, I am writing this while I listene to Lay lady lay by Bod Dylan :D )


dude, this is probably one of the better thought out post i have read in a while

NJFINSFAN1
12-08-2005, 10:16 AM
True... to a point.It is true that the whole idea gets clouded by economic interests of certain people, and that it would seem that it is just a mass of information being sent to someone who is already in a crappy situation...

Well then, why is the information, or the glorification what is to blame for this whole thing? I am sorry but I just don't see it like that, is it a factor? yea, but it is not the deciding factor in the long run.

Why do we never hear Barry Manilow tell Elton John that he will put a cap in his ***? because that is not the reality of either one of their lifes. Neither one of them grew up in a project facing first the poverrty of it, and second the completely clear racial divide. Take Outkast for example, there you have a band made out of two guys, one of them who for whatever reason got the oportunity to leave and free himself from all the racial divide that he might have found in a different place, he got the oportunity to open himself. His rap is not the same, it opened up a lot, he cant talk about popping anything in anyone's anything because it is not his reality, his reality is different.

I am sorry but speaking about rap as irresponsible and music to be blamed about anything and everything with the young, black american youth, is just plain wrong. Rap merely describes it, if your reality is gangs, violence, being thrown aside by a majoritarian and different race, and you find a way to voice this, to speak to this, to even feel proud about it.. You will. Because you want to feel proud, because this is your life.

We can't understand it, we never will, because it is impossible to stand is someone else's feet, it is however very easy to say you are overreacting, it is not all that bad, there is a light in the end of the tunnel, when you are outside, when life shines from our whiteness, and allows us to move along with everything behind us. Not true for everyone, and I would expect them to talk about it, I would expect them to be truthfull about it, and they are.

It will take a lot of look inward, from the people that are in this culture, and from the people outside that are judging them to not have to look inside and see how much they are also responsible for this. WHat is true is that it is an issue that goes far far far beyond the music, it is an issue of race, of poverty and social inequality.

(I never thought I would be defending rap anywhere, dang, I am writing this while I listene to Lay lady lay by Bod Dylan :D )

Wow, that was deep. Don't see that much here! http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Good points

Talos
12-08-2005, 10:23 AM
True... to a point.It is true that the whole idea gets clouded by economic interests of certain people, and that it would seem that it is just a mass of information being sent to someone who is already in a crappy situation...

Well then, why is the information, or the glorification what is to blame for this whole thing? I am sorry but I just don't see it like that, is it a factor? yea, but it is not the deciding factor in the long run.

Why do we never hear Barry Manilow tell Elton John that he will put a cap in his ***? because that is not the reality of either one of their lifes. Neither one of them grew up in a project facing first the poverrty of it, and second the completely clear racial divide. Take Outkast for example, there you have a band made out of two guys, one of them who for whatever reason got the oportunity to leave and free himself from all the racial divide that he might have found in a different place, he got the oportunity to open himself. His rap is not the same, it opened up a lot, he cant talk about popping anything in anyone's anything because it is not his reality, his reality is different.

I am sorry but speaking about rap as irresponsible and music to be blamed about anything and everything with the young, black american youth, is just plain wrong. Rap merely describes it, if your reality is gangs, violence, being thrown aside by a majoritarian and different race, and you find a way to voice this, to speak to this, to even feel proud about it.. You will. Because you want to feel proud, because this is your life.

We can't understand it, we never will, because it is impossible to stand is someone else's feet, it is however very easy to say you are overreacting, it is not all that bad, there is a light in the end of the tunnel, when you are outside, when life shines from our whiteness, and allows us to move along with everything behind us. Not true for everyone, and I would expect them to talk about it, I would expect them to be truthfull about it, and they are.

It will take a lot of look inward, from the people that are in this culture, and from the people outside that are judging them to not have to look inside and see how much they are also responsible for this. WHat is true is that it is an issue that goes far far far beyond the music, it is an issue of race, of poverty and social inequality.

(I never thought I would be defending rap anywhere, dang, I am writing this while I listene to Lay lady lay by Bod Dylan :D )

Excellent, well thought out post Que. Good job. :bravo:

Pagan
12-08-2005, 10:45 AM
I am sorry but speaking about rap as irresponsible and music to be blamed about anything and everything with the young, black american youth, is just plain wrong. Rap merely describes it, if your reality is gangs, violence, being thrown aside by a majoritarian and different race, and you find a way to voice this, to speak to this, to even feel proud about it.. You will. Because you want to feel proud, because this is your life.

We can't understand it, we never will, because it is impossible to stand is someone else's feet, it is however very easy to say you are overreacting, it is not all that bad, there is a light in the end of the tunnel, when you are outside, when life shines from our whiteness, and allows us to move along with everything behind us. Not true for everyone, and I would expect them to talk about it, I would expect them to be truthfull about it, and they are.

It will take a lot of look inward, from the people that are in this culture, and from the people outside that are judging them to not have to look inside and see how much they are also responsible for this. WHat is true is that it is an issue that goes far far far beyond the music, it is an issue of race, of poverty and social inequality.
Devil's advocate here....

Why then, when you see pro athletes who came from the same poverty, they aren't shooting each other?

I can understand that that's where they come from, but when you reach the level these rappers are reaching - making MILLIONS and no longer living with poverty and gangs - what's the excuse then?

The basketball player who grew up on the streets playing the playgrounds and dealing with everything that the rap star dealt with, you don't see him playing that up. You don't see him trying to gun down another player outside an arena.

I'm supposed to feel sorry for them for their upbringing, and justify the glorification of violence when I see videos of them driving pimped out Escalades, wearing jewelry that cost more than my house, and living in mansions? :confused:

I'm sorry friend, but I don't buy that.

And before the few who were hinting at racism earlier in this thread open their mouths, I feel the same way when I see Eminem act like a tool also.

Emskirch
12-08-2005, 10:49 AM
Pagan is holding the man down. :lol: :rofl3: :tongue:

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 11:01 AM
[b]
Devil's advocate here....

Why then, when you see pro athletes who came from the same poverty, they aren't shooting each other?

Ray Lewis? Murder Trial?
Willam Green? stabed in the back?
Randy McMichal? Slaps his woman around?
Sean Taylor? pulling a gun and physically assaulting a person.?



dude I can keep going. There was this guy who was drafted or was supposed to drafted and got shot at a party? i forget the dudes name he was a cornerback? anyways.. there you go pagan.

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 11:05 AM
ok found the name Dennis Weatherby. he was supposed to go in the first round before getting shot in the back.

Amars
12-08-2005, 11:18 AM
rap will die out eventually.

Pagan
12-08-2005, 11:19 AM
Ray Lewis? Murder Trial?
Willam Green? stabed in the back?
Randy McMichal? Slaps his woman around?
Sean Taylor? pulling a gun and physically assaulting a person.?



dude I can keep going. There was this guy who was drafted or was supposed to drafted and got shot at a party? i forget the dudes name he was a cornerback? anyways.. there you go pagan.
Okay, on those counts I stand corrected. But leave McMichael out. Please, there are plenty of people on the planet from ALL walks of life who are stupid enough to slap their women around. That has nothing to do with where they come from.

NJFINSFAN1
12-08-2005, 11:26 AM
Ray Lewis? Murder Trial?
Willam Green? stabed in the back?
Randy McMichal? Slaps his woman around?
Sean Taylor? pulling a gun and physically assaulting a person.?



dude I can keep going. There was this guy who was drafted or was supposed to drafted and got shot at a party? i forget the dudes name he was a cornerback? anyways.. there you go pagan.

How can you forget Lawrence Phillips?

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 11:31 AM
Okay, on those counts I stand corrected. But leave McMichael out. Please, there are plenty of people on the planet from ALL walks of life who are stupid enough to slap their women around. That has nothing to do with where they come from.


just saying if your gonna pin it to the music. Rap music does have lyrics about "slaping my *****" and stuff like that. but then agian so does elecrtonic music. Prodogy - slap my ***** up?

GRAPEAPE
12-08-2005, 11:33 AM
Okay, on those counts I stand corrected. But leave McMichael out. Please, there are plenty of people on the planet from ALL walks of life who are stupid enough to slap their women around. That has nothing to do with where they come from. People from all walks of life are abusive, And no it does not matter where you are from it matters how you were raised, it the nature vs. nuture argument. children and young people emmulate what they see, if they see vioence they act out violently. Father abuses mother, Son grows up to abuse his wife. same with Drugs and alcohol. then you have people who are depressed or crazy or whatever and violence drugs and alcohol is their escape. So no the Music does not make people do these type of things it's (IMO) the environment, and the upbringing together.

GRAPEAPE
12-08-2005, 11:34 AM
How can you forget Lawrence Phillips?
Rae Carruth, had girlfriend murdered

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 11:35 AM
exactly and if I wanted to keep backing up Quelonios post. I could go into Basketball as well ;)

CirclingWagons
12-08-2005, 11:38 AM
rap will die out eventually.
Very true, rap has turned into "pop" music...and almost all pop music has a short-lived shelf-life

mor911
12-08-2005, 11:43 AM
rap will die out eventually.
You're kidding me right? Rap isn't going anywhere.

Pagan
12-08-2005, 11:52 AM
You're kidding me right? Rap isn't going anywhere.
They said the same thing about doo-wop in the 50's, classic rock in the 70's, and hairbands in the 80's.

They weren't going anywhere either.

Rap won't die out completely, but sooner or later the next "thing" will come along and push rap back into the underground with those other musical styles.

It's inevitable, and probably better for the music. Usually the underground, hungrier artists make better music anyway. As soon as they get on top, things start to deteriorate.

Just ask Metallica. ;)

Mindwarp
12-08-2005, 11:55 AM
rap as a genere will never go away.. sub genres will pop up of it.. just like Rock

WharfRat
12-08-2005, 11:55 AM
They said the same thing about doo-wop in the 50's, classic rock in the 70's, and hairbands in the 80's.

They weren't going anywhere either.



and disco ;)

NJFINSFAN1
12-08-2005, 12:00 PM
and disco ;)

Disco is gone?:cry:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2005/12/B00005T33A01LZZZZZZZ-1.jpg

Megatron
12-08-2005, 01:26 PM
You're kidding me right? Rap isn't going anywhere. So true but it's premise hasn't really gone anywhere either. Now there have been many changes in style and genres (Gangsta, Hip-hop, Trip-hop, Hardcore etc. etc.) but at the heart of it the fundemental root has remained the same......Respect. Now sadly in some places respect is earned by taking someones life. That's a fact. Happens in the military during war, happens in the poorest gand ridden neighborhoods, and happens in the middle of suburbia at a shopping mall. The thing is that the Rap music industry as a whole is labeled the way it is because it makes no bones at all about this. It promotes this way of thinking and encourages the artists to continue this "Respect" mantra in thier music. The problem most people have with this message is that the version of "Respect" being mentioned involves starting and ending your issues with violent confrontation, be it with a gun, a fist, a curb stomp, a swarming, whatever. Not all Rap music is like this and I know that for the fact it is, but the most popular artists with "street cred" it most certainly is part of their music and reflects onto the people who listen to them and take their message to heart.

Buddwalk
12-08-2005, 03:55 PM
Pagan = My Hero :yes: