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grendel
01-05-2006, 02:43 AM
Vince young or Linehart?

NaboCane
01-05-2006, 02:47 AM
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WharfRat

dominizzo
01-05-2006, 02:54 AM
YounG with a heartbeat hes the next best thing In The NFL

Alex44
01-05-2006, 02:56 AM
Young without a doubt


Leinart actually threw the ball out of bounds to end the game.....He isnt a great QB he just had a great supporting cast

unifiedtheory
01-05-2006, 02:57 AM
I'll answer the question as soon as you spell his name correctly.

FuturePhin
01-05-2006, 03:03 AM
Young without a doubt


Leinart actually threw the ball out of bounds to end the game.....He isnt a great QB he just had a great supporting cast


Because his dumb @ss coach called a time out which left him with NONE with 19 sec. left in the game! Go figure. At least he tried beating the team with his arm like a real qb does. He's going to get killed in the Pro's. Run, run more run, throw and make your wr's go on thier knees. Ya...Thats what I want. Leinart all the way. Hits guys in stride making them able to make plays themselves. Has pocket presence and moves around preaty well. Audibles: Just plain out knows how to play QB. Lousy play calling and poor calls resulted in this farse.

Alex44
01-05-2006, 03:05 AM
Because his dumb @ss coach called a time out which left him with NONE with 19 sec. left in the game! Go figure. At least he tried beating the team with his arm like a real qb does. He's going to get killed in the Pro's. Run, run more run, throw and make your wr's go on thier knees. Ya...Thats what I want. Leinart all the way. Hits guys in stride making them able to make plays themselves. Has pocket presence and moves around preaty well. Audibles: Just plain out knows how to play QB. Lousy play calling and poor calls resulted in this farse.


He played better with his arm than Leinart, made better decisions and actually managed the game

Leinart made far more bad throws than VY Did, and Young hit more WR's in the right place than Leinart who continuously counted on 6'5 WR's and WR screen passes to pad his stats

Leinart = Bust, and a total A**hole

Jaj
01-05-2006, 03:07 AM
Alex I'm completely with you not because I'm incredibly sold on Young, but this is ridiculous. Leinart's accuracy is completely overrated. It's nothing close to what people say it is and he nearly threw three picks, while Vince threw one possible pick. Vince outperformed Leinart PERIOD..

Nappy Roots
01-05-2006, 03:08 AM
Leinart = Bust, and a total A**hole


why is he a A-Hole?

Alex44
01-05-2006, 03:11 AM
why is he a A-Hole?


he is always making smart a** comments

After the game today he said

'It doesnt matter, we are still the better team'

That disrespect

dlockz
01-05-2006, 03:18 AM
Bush + Leinhart < Vince Young

FuturePhin
01-05-2006, 03:21 AM
He played better with his arm than Leinart, made better decisions and actually managed the game

Leinart made far more bad throws than VY Did, and Young hit more WR's in the right place than Leinart who continuously counted on 6'5 WR's and WR screen passes to pad his stats

Leinart = Bust, and a total A**hole



See your a die hard Texas fan. I have just different teams I root for and both whom played tonight I liked, but Vince has yet to prove anything to me about his arm. Tonight he had players wide open, and I mean wide open and just hit them, but man, either on their knees like I mentioned earlier, or I beleive it was their te if I remember right, making diving plays to save a bad passs. Leinart tonight didnt have his best game, but just look at the crossing patterns: right on the money. The wr's were able to do something with it, he gave them a shot at a big play with the plays that were called.

dominizzo
01-05-2006, 03:23 AM
lets stop guys we are not getting eith QB"S soo stop thr hatred We Are FinFAns MAke PEace

Alex44
01-05-2006, 03:23 AM
See your a die hard Texas fan. I have just different teams I root for and both whom played tonight I liked, but Vince has yet to prove anything to me about his arm. Tonight he had players wide open, and I mean wide open and just hit them, but man, either on their knees like I mentioned earlier, or I beleive it was their te if I remember right, making diving plays to save a bad passs. Leinart tonight didnt have his best game, but just look at the crossing patterns: right on the money. The wr's were able to do something with it, he gave them a shot at a big play with the plays that were called.

Even his TD was a terrible pass he got bailed out by 6'5 Dwayne Jarret

70% of his completions were WR screens

Young was actually throwin the ball past the line of scrimmage

And btw as soon as Young leaves im not much of a Texas fan at all, I only like Vince really

FuturePhin
01-05-2006, 03:27 AM
lets stop guys we are not getting eith QB"S soo stop thr hatred We Are FinFAns MAke PEace


:lol: Its just two guys that like the opposite qb. No hatred. It would be hatred if he was a Bills/Jet/New England fan :D

FuturePhin
01-05-2006, 03:30 AM
Even his TD was a terrible pass he got bailed out by 6'5 Dwayne Jarret

70% of his completions were WR screens

Young was actually throwin the ball past the line of scrimmage

And btw as soon as Young leaves im not much of a Texas fan at all, I only like Vince really


Remember now, its only one game and I know I mentioned the play calling. I personally didnt like it. No deep calls at all, or outs etc, didnt use Bush correctly at all.. Not Leinarts fault. USC's corners were a let down and the D just didnt show up today. Will see whos right 2-5 years down the road. :beerbang:

Jaj
01-05-2006, 03:31 AM
Even his TD was a terrible pass he got bailed out by 6'5 Dwayne Jarret

70% of his completions were WR screens

Young was actually throwin the ball past the line of scrimmage

And btw as soon as Young leaves im not much of a Texas fan at all, I only like Vince really

Ya I can't understand this ridiculous hype that Leinart puts the ball in the perfect spot. He really doesn't. His receivers make amazing catches...

Regan21286
01-05-2006, 03:34 AM
lets stop guys we are not getting eith QB"S soo stop thr hatred We Are FinFAns MAke PEace

We're just debating which QB we think would help our team more. Obviously, whichever QB we get will have my support until he really shows that he doesn't earn such support, something like a Leaf-type performance which I would never wish to happen on any Dolphin QB regardless of who. If we get Leinart, superb. If we get Young/Cutler, good. If we get Leaf, fine. They have a right to our support until they're proven to be beyond cheering for.

Alex44
01-05-2006, 03:34 AM
Remember now, its only one game and I know I mentioned the play calling. I personally didnt like it. No deep calls at all, or outs etc, didnt use Bush correctly at all.. Not Leinarts fault. USC's corners were a let down and the D just didnt show up today. Will see whos right 2-5 years down the road. :beerbang:


Eh I guess thats good enough for now....for all we know they could both be busts so its best put off untill down the road

ArticleNinja
01-06-2006, 12:31 AM
Discuss this article or suffer dire consequences: http://www.finheaven.com/cms/265.html.

PhinSoldia
01-06-2006, 12:43 AM
wow where are the Vince nut hangers now?? few people see that he isnt a NFL QB and now i hope this column opens a few eyes

unifiedtheory
01-06-2006, 12:49 AM
Excellent artilce KB...a really good read.

Awsi Dooger
01-06-2006, 01:55 AM
I like many of KB's points but a few things:

1) There is no such thing as Southern Cal. That term is an ignorant creation of the midwestern and eastern press. The USC SID Tim Tessalone puts a note in his media guide every year that it's not an acceptable reference, for print or media covering USC games. It's like saying South Fla for the University of South Florida, or North Car for the University of North Carolina.

2) Yards per attempt is a pro stat, not a college stat. I work in a sports stat office and we emphasize YPA above all in pros, and don't even chart it in college. I can't even imagine charting it in college given the nature of the sport.

Vince Young's game simply doesn't translate perfectly to the NFL, where he won't have zone read plays to rely on and his flawed throwing motion will be a liability much more often. Plus a loping long strider like that is going to get whacked in the big league. I don't agree his touch is poor. Last night he misfired on the downfield throws but that's hardly typical of the season. His accuracy and touch improved greatly this year. Young does tend to float the deep passes a bit too much.

Leinart had plenty of zip in the 2nd half. It's an overwhelming tendency with Leinart that he lobs the ball too much against lesser foes or defenses that he doesn't respect, but shows much more zip when USC feels threatened. I was very surprised he put so much air on passes in the first half, including the poorly thrown INT in the end zone. Going into the game I expected game long zip similar to last year's Orange Bowl. Leinart will have to be pestered in that regard in the NFL but I'm sure the game in and game out requirements will force a change in his velocity.

Cutler doesn't have enough variety in his pace and loft. I'm constantly amazed that isn't emphasized more. I watched almost every game, not just the celebrated comebacks against Tennessee and Florida. You take away his intermediate fastball and Cutler has almost nothing to fall back on. That's how he went 11 for 32 for 137 yards and 2 INTs against LSU. Before the Miami/LSU game I wrote on Canes message boards that it was a stern test for Kyle Wright because Wright has some of the same tendencies as Cutler, a strong arm but not enough variety in his lofts or enough field awareness to adjust to situation. Sure enough, Wright looked almost exactly the same as Cutler against LSU, if not worse.

Nappy Roots
01-06-2006, 02:29 AM
I like many of KB's points but a few things:

1) There is no such thing as Southern Cal. That term is an ignorant creation of the midwestern and eastern press. The USC SID Tim Tessalone puts a note in his media guide every year that it's not an acceptable reference, for print or media covering USC games. It's like saying South Fla for the University of South Florida, or North Car for the University of North Carolina.

2) Yards per attempt is a pro stat, not a college stat. I work in a sports stat office and we emphasize YPA above all in pros, and don't even chart it in college. I can't even imagine charting it in college given the nature of the sport.

Vince Young's game simply doesn't translate perfectly to the NFL, where he won't have zone read plays to rely on and his flawed throwing motion will be a liability much more often. Plus a loping long strider like that is going to get whacked in the big league. I don't agree his touch is poor. Last night he misfired on the downfield throws but that's hardly typical of the season. His accuracy and touch improved greatly this year. Young does tend to float the deep passes a bit too much.

Leinart had plenty of zip in the 2nd half. It's an overwhelming tendency with Leinart that he lobs the ball too much against lesser foes or defenses that he doesn't respect, but shows much more zip when USC feels threatened. I was very surprised he put so much air on passes in the first half, including the poorly thrown INT in the end zone. Going into the game I expected game long zip similar to last year's Orange Bowl. Leinart will have to be pestered in that regard in the NFL but I'm sure the game in and game out requirements will force a change in his velocity.

Cutler doesn't have enough variety in his pace and loft. I'm constantly amazed that isn't emphasized more. I watched almost every game, not just the celebrated comebacks against Tennessee and Florida. You take away his intermediate fastball and Cutler has almost nothing to fall back on. That's how he went 11 for 32 for 137 yards and 2 INTs against LSU. Before the Miami/LSU game I wrote on Canes message boards that it was a stern test for Kyle Wright because Wright has some of the same tendencies as Cutler, a strong arm but not enough variety in his lofts or enough field awareness to adjust to situation. Sure enough, Wright looked almost exactly the same as Cutler against LSU, if not worse.


great post. http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

PhinsPhan
01-06-2006, 04:51 AM
Mike Mayock from NFL Network also believes that Cutler might be the best QB in the draft. He is generally quite knowledgable and accurate in terms of projections.

Motion
01-06-2006, 04:54 AM
Mike Mayock from NFL Network also believes that Cutler might be the best QB in the draft. He is generally quite knowledgable and accurate in terms of projections.

He made a great comment comparing Leinart and Cutler. Said "If you switched the two, USC would surely still be undefeated but I don't think Vandy would have their 5 wins."

A Wing Pilot
01-06-2006, 09:44 AM
Listen I don't know how much Cutler is paying you, but its not enough. :goof:

Gunslinging without accuracy is just INT's for the asking. All three of them are projects. I do not believe for one second that any QB in this draft is going to walk onto the feild and lead there team to a SB. But I do believe that all three can be productive QB's.

As for young, theres nothing wrong with trusting yourself or your feet more then anything else. Winners want the ball when the game is on the line. The last score he said he looked for his #1,#2, & #3 then when nothing was available took it upon himself to win the game. (much better idea then losing it on a pass forced into coverage). While he's not a typical QB hes good enough to play in the NFL.

Matt Lienart is we-tard-ed, had he come out last year he would have gone #1 no questions. However he took a risk and in my opinion his stoock has fallen. The problem with matt is no one knows how good he could be without allstars and heismans all around him.

I don't know enough about cutler to tell you much but everything i heard is positive with warnings, much like every other QB on the planet.

I'll be wary of every QB picked, and sit in a wait and see type mode. Do i have a prefrence, yes I do my favorite choice is the one that Saban picks!!!

Nappy Roots
01-06-2006, 12:22 PM
Listen I don't know how much Cutler is paying you, but its not enough. :goof:

Gunslinging without accuracy is just INT's for the asking. All three of them are projects. I do not believe for one second that any QB in this draft is going to walk onto the feild and lead there team to a SB. But I do believe that all three can be productive QB's.



Culter is without accuracy? thats news to me.




Matt Lienart is we-tard-ed, had he come out last year he would have gone #1 no questions. However he took a risk and in my opinion his stoock has fallen. The problem with matt is no one knows how good he could be without allstars and heismans all around him.



wow. hes "wetarded" because he wanted a shot a doing something no one in th history of college football has done?

and his stock has fallen? instead of being #1, he'll be #2 or #3, whoopty ****in doo........id say it was worth it.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 12:43 PM
I do love it when a fan who has never played quarterback....or coached a quarterback tells other fans, who and what are good quarterbacks and those that aren't.

I rather trust scouts and G.M.'s that have been in the business to evaluate players than a obviously biased fan who likes SEC players, above all else.

I can appreciate a fan expressing his/her preference of certain players they may like...but lets remember we are just fans...not unlike anyone else that is a member of this site. The real experts make mistakes every year...so what do we expect from just fans?

Good luck Keith in Med school.

Nappy Roots
01-06-2006, 12:45 PM
I do love it when a fan who has never played quarterback....or coached a quarterback tells other fans, who and what are good quarterbacks and those that aren't.

I rather trust scouts and G.M.'s that have been in the business to evaluate players than a obviously biased fan who likes SEC players, above all else.

I can appreciate a fan expressing his/her preference of certain players they may like...but lets remember we are just fans...not unlike anyone else that is a member of this site. The real experts make mistakes every year...so what do we expect from just fans?

Good luck Keith in Med school.


youve been saying forever how vince young is a good QB. so how contridicting is this?


you think that all the scouts and GMs played QB, or coached QB?

ether79
01-06-2006, 12:54 PM
youve been saying forever how vince young is a good QB. so how contridicting is this?


you think that all the scouts and GMs played QB, or coached QB?

Or the fact that Chris Mortensen wrote an article about how top level scouts said almost the exact thing KB said about both QBs.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 12:58 PM
youve been saying forever how vince young is a good QB. so how contridicting is this?


you think that all the scouts and GMs played QB, or coached QB?

What part Nappy didn't you understand? Keith Box isn't a scout...has limited knowledge of quarterbacks....he is a student....he in no way...is a expert...and his opinion is biased as usual.

Just think about it....Leinart and Young have done more....but Cutler is the better pick. Leinart and Young have red flag's...but Cutler has a strong arm.
Leinart and Young have played for two of the best schools in all of college football, both have won National championships....where did Cutler play and what did he achieve?

It takes more than just a strong arm....to be a great quarterback...or to even play for a great school.

As I wrote....if he wrote this as just a fan....thats one item...but to make it sound like he has the experience and background to back up what most real experts are saying opposite of what he believes...is biased reporting on his part. At least wait for the combine and the senior bowl...before you hype up a player...thats no better than the 3rd best quarterback, if Young comes out.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 01:00 PM
Or the fact that Chris Mortensen wrote an article about how top level scouts said almost the exact thing KB said about both QBs.

If Young comes out....do you believe that Cutler will be selected over him or even Leinart?

ether79
01-06-2006, 01:04 PM
If Young comes out....do you believe that Cutler will be selected over him or even Leinart?
Umm nope. In the end COULD he end up better? You bet. History proves that to be possible.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 01:09 PM
Umm nope. In the end COULD he end up better? You bet. History proves that to be possible.

Anything is possible....but most is unlikely.

Frankly...I could care less right now....unless Saban pulls off a Ditka...the Dolphins won't be acquiring a first round Quarterback in this draft and as I stated many times before...I doubt he'll use his first rounder for ANY quarterback...I'm looking towards the mid rounds, for that.

ether79
01-06-2006, 01:11 PM
Anything is possible....but most is unlikely.

Frankly...I could care less right now....unless Saban pulls off a Ditka...the Dolphins won't be acquiring a first round Quarterback in this draft and as I stated many times before...I doubt he'll use his first rounder for ANY quarterback...I'm looking towards the mid rounds, for that.

Exactly, I'm with you there. He isn't moving up and if Cutler falls to 16th(unlikely IMO) then we'll just have to see. I could see him taking Cutler, depending on what else is there.

KB21
01-06-2006, 01:24 PM
Anything is possible....but most is unlikely.

Frankly...I could care less right now....unless Saban pulls off a Ditka...the Dolphins won't be acquiring a first round Quarterback in this draft and as I stated many times before...I doubt he'll use his first rounder for ANY quarterback...I'm looking towards the mid rounds, for that.

Oh, it's very likely. The history of the position in the NFL shows that run first quarterbacks like Vince Young do not fair well in the league.

If Matt Leinart shows that he has enough arm to make all the throws, then there is no question in my mind that he will be the best quarterback of this group. Jay Cutler, IMO, will be the second best, followed by a healthy Brodie Croyle. I don't even consider Vince Young a quarterback, and if I were drafting him high, it would be as a wide receiver.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 01:34 PM
Oh, it's very likely. The history of the position in the NFL shows that run first quarterbacks like Vince Young do not fair well in the league.

If Matt Leinart shows that he has enough arm to make all the throws, then there is no question in my mind that he will be the best quarterback of this group. Jay Cutler, IMO, will be the second best, followed by a healthy Brodie Croyle. I don't even consider Vince Young a quarterback, and if I were drafting him high, it would be as a wide receiver.

And thats why your not a expert.....Vick hasn't done well?

You say run first Keith...but you aren't looking at the offensive plays called for him. The reason why he runs is part of the total package....he doesn't run first...he watches the defense....if the end comes inward...he has a open lane to run threw....so he is watching the defense...isn't he.
He's the first college player to ever run for over 1000 yds and throw for over 3000 yds. How many yards does it take for you to realize he's a QB? Does a run first QB....acquire over 3000 yds passing? He's a freak of nature...has it all....and with the right team could be a great QB in the NFL. The key is not to try to change him....just like Rivers...he is what he is.

TotoreMexico
01-06-2006, 01:56 PM
Discuss this article or suffer dire consequences: http://www.finheaven.com/cms/265.html.

Great article

BlueFin
01-06-2006, 02:35 PM
I like many of KB's points but a few things:

1) There is no such thing as Southern Cal. That term is an ignorant creation of the midwestern and eastern press. The USC SID Tim Tessalone puts a note in his media guide every year that it's not an acceptable reference, for print or media covering USC games. It's like saying South Fla for the University of South Florida, or North Car for the University of North Carolina.

2) Yards per attempt is a pro stat, not a college stat. I work in a sports stat office and we emphasize YPA above all in pros, and don't even chart it in college. I can't even imagine charting it in college given the nature of the sport.

Vince Young's game simply doesn't translate perfectly to the NFL, where he won't have zone read plays to rely on and his flawed throwing motion will be a liability much more often. Plus a loping long strider like that is going to get whacked in the big league. I don't agree his touch is poor. Last night he misfired on the downfield throws but that's hardly typical of the season. His accuracy and touch improved greatly this year. Young does tend to float the deep passes a bit too much.

Leinart had plenty of zip in the 2nd half. It's an overwhelming tendency with Leinart that he lobs the ball too much against lesser foes or defenses that he doesn't respect, but shows much more zip when USC feels threatened. I was very surprised he put so much air on passes in the first half, including the poorly thrown INT in the end zone. Going into the game I expected game long zip similar to last year's Orange Bowl. Leinart will have to be pestered in that regard in the NFL but I'm sure the game in and game out requirements will force a change in his velocity.

Cutler doesn't have enough variety in his pace and loft. I'm constantly amazed that isn't emphasized more. I watched almost every game, not just the celebrated comebacks against Tennessee and Florida. You take away his intermediate fastball and Cutler has almost nothing to fall back on. That's how he went 11 for 32 for 137 yards and 2 INTs against LSU. Before the Miami/LSU game I wrote on Canes message boards that it was a stern test for Kyle Wright because Wright has some of the same tendencies as Cutler, a strong arm but not enough variety in his lofts or enough field awareness to adjust to situation. Sure enough, Wright looked almost exactly the same as Cutler against LSU, if not worse.

There again, Jay Cutler leading Vandy against an LSU defense recruited and coached by Nick Saban up until this season is a little like Custer leading under 200 soldiers against several thousand Sioux at little Big Horn.

When assessing these guys you have to take into account the talent around them as well.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 02:40 PM
There again, Jay Cutler leading Vandy against an LSU defense recruited and coached by Nick Saban up until this season is a little like Custer leading under 200 soldiers against several thousand Sioux at little Big Horn.

When assessing these guys you have to take into account the talent around them as well.

The Sioux won that game....did Cutler? :sidelol:

BlueFin
01-06-2006, 02:52 PM
The Sioux won that game....did Cutler? :sidelol:

That was the point Pete, Custer was considered a very good warrior and leader, Like Cutler, Custers team was overmatched and had no real chance to do well in that battle, just as Jay Cutler had little chance of doing well against Sabans recruited defense.

wazzy
01-06-2006, 02:54 PM
I like many of KB's points but a few things:

1) There is no such thing as Southern Cal. That term is an ignorant creation of the midwestern and eastern press. The USC SID Tim Tessalone puts a note in his media guide every year that it's not an acceptable reference, for print or media covering USC games. It's like saying South Fla for the University of South Florida, or North Car for the University of North Carolina.

2) Yards per attempt is a pro stat, not a college stat. I work in a sports stat office and we emphasize YPA above all in pros, and don't even chart it in college. I can't even imagine charting it in college given the nature of the sport.

Vince Young's game simply doesn't translate perfectly to the NFL, where he won't have zone read plays to rely on and his flawed throwing motion will be a liability much more often. Plus a loping long strider like that is going to get whacked in the big league. I don't agree his touch is poor. Last night he misfired on the downfield throws but that's hardly typical of the season. His accuracy and touch improved greatly this year. Young does tend to float the deep passes a bit too much.

Leinart had plenty of zip in the 2nd half. It's an overwhelming tendency with Leinart that he lobs the ball too much against lesser foes or defenses that he doesn't respect, but shows much more zip when USC feels threatened. I was very surprised he put so much air on passes in the first half, including the poorly thrown INT in the end zone. Going into the game I expected game long zip similar to last year's Orange Bowl. Leinart will have to be pestered in that regard in the NFL but I'm sure the game in and game out requirements will force a change in his velocity.

Cutler doesn't have enough variety in his pace and loft. I'm constantly amazed that isn't emphasized more. I watched almost every game, not just the celebrated comebacks against Tennessee and Florida. You take away his intermediate fastball and Cutler has almost nothing to fall back on. That's how he went 11 for 32 for 137 yards and 2 INTs against LSU. Before the Miami/LSU game I wrote on Canes message boards that it was a stern test for Kyle Wright because Wright has some of the same tendencies as Cutler, a strong arm but not enough variety in his lofts or enough field awareness to adjust to situation. Sure enough, Wright looked almost exactly the same as Cutler against LSU, if not worse.

Great post man ....... and solid read on the article I don't agree on all the comments made.

BlueFin
01-06-2006, 03:02 PM
Nice article KB, I happen to agree with most of your assessments.

I do find it funny the euphoria you see fans get over a college performance, everything is on A whole other level in the NFL, I still remember what a free wheeling weapon Peter Warrick was at FSU, and how little of that ability we've seen in the NFL.

I do think some of the criticisms of Cutler stem from bad habits created by having inferior talent around him, I believe the Senior Bowl will awaken many to Jay Cutler.

Regan21286
01-06-2006, 03:26 PM
Oh, it's very likely. The history of the position in the NFL shows that run first quarterbacks like Vince Young do not fair well in the league.

If Matt Leinart shows that he has enough arm to make all the throws, then there is no question in my mind that he will be the best quarterback of this group. Jay Cutler, IMO, will be the second best, followed by a healthy Brodie Croyle. I don't even consider Vince Young a quarterback, and if I were drafting him high, it would be as a wide receiver.

Run first QB's fair well when they become pass first QB's like McNabb.

Leinart will have enough opportunity to prove himself at the Combine and workouts. Too bad he can't pull a Marino and drop to our spot.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 03:29 PM
That was the point Pete, Custer was considered a very good warrior and leader, Like Cutler, Custers team was overmatched and had no real chance to do well in that battle, just as Jay Cutler had little chance of doing well against Sabans recruited defense.

You have to know when to hold them....and when to fold them. Remember what Patton said....Don't become a hero dying for your country....make the other poor ******* die for his.

Custer was a fool and died a fool.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 03:33 PM
Nice article KB, I happen to agree with most of your assessments.

I do find it funny the euphoria you see fans get over a college performance, everything is on A whole other level in the NFL, I still remember what a free wheeling weapon Peter Warrick was at FSU, and how little of that ability we've seen in the NFL.

I do think some of the criticisms of Cutler stem from bad habits created by having inferior talent around him, I believe the Senior Bowl will awaken many to Jay Cutler.

I find it funny that the same person year after year selects a QB from the SEC...that doesn't do anything...as in Greene last year. Remember Keith....how he was the best QB....did he even play this year? O' I forgot to add...Keith's first QB...was Rogers....then Greene.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 03:34 PM
Nice article KB, I happen to agree with most of your assessments.

I do find it funny the euphoria you see fans get over a college performance, everything is on A whole other level in the NFL, I still remember what a free wheeling weapon Peter Warrick was at FSU, and how little of that ability we've seen in the NFL.

I do think some of the criticisms of Cutler stem from bad habits created by having inferior talent around him, I believe the Senior Bowl will awaken many to Jay Cutler.

And maybe he just isn't the second coming of Rogers or Greene? At least we should hope so.

Nappy Roots
01-06-2006, 03:43 PM
And maybe he just isn't the second coming of Rogers or Greene? At least we should hope so.


greene was what a 4th round pick?

and whats wrong with Rodgers?

fishypete
01-06-2006, 04:02 PM
greene was what a 4th round pick?

and whats wrong with Rodgers?

I guess you weren't around last draft....Greene was the so-called Cutler last year....and Rogers was the man....until....Greene became the man.

Nappy Roots
01-06-2006, 04:04 PM
I guess you weren't around last draft....Greene was the so-called Cutler last year....and Rogers was the man....until....Greene became the man.


i was. but i dont base my opinions on other peoples and i dont remember that far back. im sure you can look at my posts back when the draft was here and see i hated Greene as a pro prospect.

Culter is head and shoulders above anything Greene ever was.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 04:13 PM
i was. but i dont base my opinions on other peoples and i dont remember that far back. im sure you can look at my posts back when the draft was here and see i hated Greene as a pro prospect.

Culter is head and shoulders above anything Greene ever was.

While I'll agree that I didn't think that much about Greene...as some here did...it's no different with Cutler....it's the same hype every year...and Cutler fits the bill. By anyone saying that Cutler is a first round pick....especially when they try to compare him to Favre...who was selected in the 2nd round...is just plain hype. Thats why guys like Rogers and Smith get taken in the first round...when they wouldn't be IF some real quailty QB's were in that draft...hype and desperation....thats all it is.

BlueFin
01-06-2006, 04:13 PM
You have to know when to hold them....and when to fold them. Remember what Patton said....Don't become a hero dying for your country....make the other poor ******* die for his.

Custer was a fool and died a fool.

Uh....I really wasn't discussing history Pete, it was an analogy, maybe you missed the point?

BlueFin
01-06-2006, 04:16 PM
I find it funny that the same person year after year selects a QB from the SEC...that doesn't do anything...as in Greene last year. Remember Keith....how he was the best QB....did he even play this year? O' I forgot to add...Keith's first QB...was Rogers....then Greene.

So Pete, is your point that you are labeling Greene and Rogers busts after one year?, where one backed up a pro bowler and another backed up a hall of famer?

BlueFin
01-06-2006, 04:19 PM
While I'll agree that I didn't think that much about Greene...as some here did...it's no different with Cutler....it's the same hype every year...and Cutler fits the bill. By anyone saying that Cutler is a first round pick....especially when they try to compare him to Favre...who was selected in the 2nd round...is just plain hype. Thats why guys like Rogers and Smith get taken in the first round...when they wouldn't be IF some real quailty QB's were in that draft...hype and desperation....thats all it is.

Favre was the first pick of the second round, its hardly a stretch to compare where Brett was when he was drafted and Jay Cutler now. Both played for lesser schools and therefore got less exposure and had to deal with lesser talent around them.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 04:40 PM
Favre was the first pick of the second round, its hardly a stretch to compare where Brett was when he was drafted and Jay Cutler now. Both played for lesser schools and therefore got less exposure and had to deal with lesser talent around them.

Boy are you reaching....lets see what crazy team picks Cutler and where first. I trust some team will fall for the hype....of a QB that has so many problems and isn't from a winning team....it happens all the time.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 04:42 PM
So Pete, is your point that you are labeling Greene and Rogers busts after one year?, where one backed up a pro bowler and another backed up a hall of famer?

Blue....time will tell us all we need to know about Greene and Rodgers...and all the excuses won't stop time.

I wonder with a new headcoach....maybe Green Bay goes in a different direction...time will tell.

RLMIAMI
01-06-2006, 05:15 PM
It is quite obvious this person did not see the game. What I saw was 1 QB that was pretty darn good (Leinart) and one that was breathtaking (Young). Anyone how opines on what these guys will do prior to even a workout is really out to lunch. I for one have seen alot of Texas games and I can tell you that arm strength does not seems to be a problem for Young.

fishypete
01-06-2006, 05:17 PM
It is quite obvious this person did not see the game. What I saw was 1 QB that was pretty darn good (Leinart) and one that was breathtaking (Young). Anyone how opines on what these guys will do prior to even a workout is really out to lunch. I for one have seen alot of Texas games and I can tell you that arm strength does not seems to be a problem for Young.

I've seen them all and I can tell you flat out...his arm strength isn't a problem.

Pocoloco
01-06-2006, 06:03 PM
you can't argue with winning bigtime games, and that's what Young and Leinart have done. Poor mechanics and passes with a little too much hangtime mean squat to me if you can still post the W week in and week out.
Cutler's claim to fame is almost beating Florida!!

FinSinceBirth
01-06-2006, 08:00 PM
you can't argue with winning bigtime games, and that's what Young and Leinart have done. Poor mechanics and passes with a little too much hangtime mean squat to me if you can still post the W week in and week out.
Cutler's claim to fame is almost beating Florida!!

That's where your wrong. Cutler's claim to fame is doing fairly well with the worst surrounding cast ever. In fact Cutler was voted to the SEC preseason first team. That tells you how people think about him. Almost beating Florida just showed everyone what he was capable of.

Nappy Roots
01-06-2006, 08:03 PM
you can't argue with winning bigtime games, and that's what Young and Leinart have done. Poor mechanics and passes with a little too much hangtime mean squat to me if you can still post the W week in and week out.
Cutler's claim to fame is almost beating Florida!!


go get ken dorsey then, he won alot in college. winning in college doesnt translate

mbsinmisc
01-06-2006, 09:45 PM
I am enjoyig this thread. I have never ventured off the main message board! Thanks for the insight.

KB21
01-06-2006, 11:17 PM
The only hype out there is the incredible media hype surrounding Vince Young. At least Jay Cutler has some substance to his quarterback skills. He's a far better quarterback than Vince Young.

fishypete
01-07-2006, 12:29 AM
The only hype out there is the incredible media hype surrounding Vince Young. At least Jay Cutler has some substance to his quarterback skills. He's a far better quarterback than Vince Young.

Vince Young is 30-2....what hype Keith? If anyone is getting hyped...it's Cutler.

You say Cutler has some substance to his QB skills....can you name them? Can you also state Cutlers problems?

To you....Cutler is a far better quarterback than Vince Young....yet Cutler couldn't match Youngs progress....of course you'll say....Cutler played on a bad team....and your right....but that was his decision, Keith....IF Cutler was such a great talent as you believe....he chose unwisely....and it's sure apparent that none of ther SEC coaches really thought that much of him...because if they did...you know they would have made him and his parents a offer he couldn't refuse.

It's a new year...but the same story....hype up a SEC quarterback...and full speed ahead.

fishypete
01-07-2006, 01:01 AM
Keith.....wanna bet Omar Jacobs is more a Mueller's QB, than Cutler?

finswin56
01-07-2006, 08:06 AM
Vince Young is 30-2....what hype Keith? If anyone is getting hyped...it's Cutler.

You say Cutler has some substance to his QB skills....can you name them? Can you also state Cutlers problems?

To you....Cutler is a far better quarterback than Vince Young....yet Cutler couldn't match Youngs progress....of course you'll say....Cutler played on a bad team....and your right....but that was his decision, Keith....IF Cutler was such a great talent as you believe....he chose unwisely....and it's sure apparent that none of ther SEC coaches really thought that much of him...because if they did...you know they would have made him and his parents a offer he couldn't refuse.

It's a new year...but the same story....hype up a SEC quarterback...and full speed ahead. Are you still sticking to this line of "thinking".

Do you actually believe that where a kid chooses to go to school should be used to judge his professional potential?

Because that is exactly what your post implies.
Why do you ask questions that are answered in the Commentary?
Pete, if you just want to talk yourself into circles without any real substance to your "arguments", go to the depths. This constant stream of impertinent rambling gets tiresome.

KB21
01-07-2006, 01:00 PM
Vince Young is 30-2....what hype Keith? If anyone is getting hyped...it's Cutler.

You say Cutler has some substance to his QB skills....can you name them? Can you also state Cutlers problems?

To you....Cutler is a far better quarterback than Vince Young....yet Cutler couldn't match Youngs progress....of course you'll say....Cutler played on a bad team....and your right....but that was his decision, Keith....IF Cutler was such a great talent as you believe....he chose unwisely....and it's sure apparent that none of ther SEC coaches really thought that much of him...because if they did...you know they would have made him and his parents a offer he couldn't refuse.

It's a new year...but the same story....hype up a SEC quarterback...and full speed ahead.

Did you read the commentary piece? I noted Jay's strengths and weaknesses in that piece. Jay has a much better arm than Vince Young, and Jay has a quarterback's mentality. Vince Young has a running back's mentality.

I detailed everything I saw in Vince Young, and Chris Mortensen today is stating that NFL scouts are telling him basically the very same stuff. 267 yards on 40 passing attempts is not impressive at all. It's very average, and that's because all Vince did in this game was dump the ball off or run it.

Vince Young is just another run first quarterback that gets hyped up by the media. The media has a social conscious when it come to not only a black quarterback, but a particular style of black quarterback. The media will pump up and overhype every run first black quarterback, just like they do with Michael Vick, who is a horrible quarterback. Vince Young is just the next in line. He's not any better than Reggie McNeal and Michael Robinson when it comes to being a passer, but because he's the one the media hypes, he's the one that is projected to stay at quarterback while the other two are being moved to wide receiver. A smart GM would take Vince high and move him to wide receiver, where his talent and instincts fit the best at.

Vince has poor mechanics, an average arm, and a run first mentality.

Jay Cutler, on the other hand, has a great arm, mediocre mechanics, and a gun slinging mentality. I'd rather have a quarterback that believes in his arm and has a gun slinger's mentality than an overhyped running back.

As far as Omar Jacobs goes, he probably is a more likely option at this point, because Miami isn't going to get the opportunity to take Cutler in the first round. I'm not convinced Miami would take Cutler anyway, because I think they will go defense and take LaRon Landry with the 16th pick.

I'll also throw Barrick Nealy's name out there. Some call him a poor man's Vince Young, but that is ridiculous because Nealy is a much better passer than Vince Young.