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GreenMonster
01-11-2006, 01:37 PM
Listening to the Herd this morning talk about the HOF got me more to thinking about my stance on it. Roger Maris didn't make it because his #'s where not great for a long time, but Phil Rizzuto makes it because of 1 MVP and a long career with the Yanks. Maris owned the greatest record in sports for a long time and has one of baseball most memorable moments with his speech. When I tell my kids about baseball, Roger Maris's name will come up more than once and Rizzuto never. Don Sutton, 324 wins and a slightly above avg. career. Nolan Ryan has 7 no-hitters and was one of the most feared pitchers ever. Just like Sutton, I would rank Ryan as a better than avg. pitcher, but 7 no hitters makes you great and you deserve a spot in the HOF. I will never tell my kids about the merits of Don Suttons 324 wins in 23 years, but I will remind them of a pitcher with 7 no-hitters and one that beat up Robin Ventura at 40+.

You can't tell the story of Rock without Buddy Holly, the Doors, or Kurt Cobain, but they wouldn't make the HOF because of not enough stats if baseball writers had to vote.

FaninPatsyLand
01-11-2006, 02:13 PM
I think the Hall of Fame voting is a joke. These writers that are voting need to take a step back and let go of their personal grudges against certain players. There is absolutely no reason why Jim Rice should be left out of the Hall. He was incredible for a decade (the numbers speak for themselves) and these writers can't see past the fact that he's an ******* off the field...

...I must have forgotten that this is a personality contest. Well, in that case, why don't we remove Ted Williams. Forget that he was the greatest hitter of all time, he wasn't exactly a media darling.

Ray Finkle
01-11-2006, 03:30 PM
I think the Hall of Fame voting is a joke. These writers that are voting need to take a step back and let go of their personal grudges against certain players. There is absolutely no reason why Jim Rice should be left out of the Hall. He was incredible for a decade (the numbers speak for themselves) and these writers can't see past the fact that he's an ******* off the field...

...I must have forgotten that this is a personality contest. Well, in that case, why don't we remove Ted Williams. Forget that he was the greatest hitter of all time, he wasn't exactly a media darling.

There are a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame who don't deserve to be there and a bunch that do belong that never will. Phil Rizzuto doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, neither does Bill Mazeroski. There are tons you can name.

Jim Rice was the most dominating hitter in baseball in his era from 1974 to 1986. Yet he's not there because he pissed off too many writers. It's funny because the guys that don't vote for people like Rice say "Oh his character was bad" or "He was a one dimensional player, he only hit, he didn't play defensive or steal bases". Well Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth aren't in the Hall of Fame because of their character. And Ted Williams and Reggie Jackson aren't in the Hall of Fame for their defense.

In my opinion the players in the Hall should be the only ones to vote. They know more about the game than these sports writers. Just like how I think the HOFers and current players should vote on MVPs, Cy Young, ROTY awards because the awards are jokes.

MikeO
01-12-2006, 02:13 AM
Problem is this. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!

Prior to 1997 if you were a beat writer for 25 years for the Cleveland Indians you never saw a game played in the N.L in person....ever! You were covering the Indians all that time! So, how are you qualified to vote on a hall of fame ballot when it comes to an N.L. player?!??? You never saw them play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FaninPatsyLand
01-12-2006, 04:04 AM
Problem is this. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!

Prior to 1997 if you were a beat writer for 25 years for the Cleveland Indians you never saw a game played in the N.L in person....ever! You were covering the Indians all that time! So, how are you qualified to vote on a hall of fame ballot when it comes to an N.L. player?!??? You never saw them play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is an excellent point, and is even somewhat true today. Alot of these writers know less about certain players than a good fan of a specific team does. It's not their fault, the writers are paid to follow a certain team, but they are in no way qualified to vote on players outside of their job specification. This entire voting process needs to be completely overhauled.

UCFinfan86
01-12-2006, 10:20 AM
Listening to the Herd this morning talk about the HOF got me more to thinking about my stance on it. Roger Maris didn't make it because his #'s where not great for a long time, but Phil Rizzuto makes it because of 1 MVP and a long career with the Yanks. Maris owned the greatest record in sports for a long time and has one of baseball most memorable moments with his speech. When I tell my kids about baseball, Roger Maris's name will come up more than once and Rizzuto never. Don Sutton, 324 wins and a slightly above avg. career. Nolan Ryan has 7 no-hitters and was one of the most feared pitchers ever. Just like Sutton, I would rank Ryan as a better than avg. pitcher, but 7 no hitters makes you great and you deserve a spot in the HOF. I will never tell my kids about the merits of Don Suttons 324 wins in 23 years, but I will remind them of a pitcher with 7 no-hitters and one that beat up Robin Ventura at 40+.

You can't tell the story of Rock without Buddy Holly, the Doors, or Kurt Cobain, but they wouldn't make the HOF because of not enough stats if baseball writers had to vote.

Nolan Ryan isn't in the HOF? that is crazy he is the best pitcher ever

MikeO
01-12-2006, 11:39 AM
Nolan Ryan isn't in the HOF? that is crazy he is the best pitcher ever

He went in 1999. He is in. He's far from the best pitcher ever though he had 324 wins but had almost 300 loses. Something like 294 or so.

GreenMonster
01-12-2006, 11:44 AM
Nolan Ryan isn't in the HOF? that is crazy he is the best pitcher ever

Nolan is in, I just have a hard time lumping truly great players, with models of consistency and durability throughout there major league careers.

Roman529
01-13-2006, 02:56 AM
Goose Gossage, is from here in my hometown of Colorado Springs, and should be in the HOF....his numbers are better than Bruce Sutters. Hopefully he will get in next year. I have seen the Goose here several times and gotten to talk with him...he is a great guy.

phunwin
01-13-2006, 09:52 AM
Nolan is in, I just have a hard time lumping truly great players, with models of consistency and durability throughout there major league careers.

It's a fine line, to be sure. Kirby Puckett is in, but Jim Rice is out. Puckett's career was ended prematurely by glaucoma, Rice's by the fact that his bat speed fell off a cliff. Tony Perez is in mostly because he piled up RBIs like they were going out of style, but he was a tremendous beneficiary of his ultra-talented teammates, and he played forever. Don Sutton is in because he pitched forever, but as Bill Simmons once noted, if the Dodgers had called the Red Sox and offered Sutton for Rice even up, the Red Sox would have giggled and hung up. Doesn't really seem fair, but longevity goes a LONG way with the Hall.

Personally, I think Rice gets in next year (and he probably should, but then, so should Ron Santo and Bert Blyleven, both of whom are more deserving, so I'm not losing sleep over it). His vote totals have increased enough annually that he'll probably make it on the next go-around. Plus, his plight generates roughly 1 billion letters each year from Red Sox fans in search of something new to complain about, and eventually, I suspect the BBWAA will vote him in just to shut them up.

More than anything, I'd love to see a Hall of Fame purge. Start throwing out some of these stiffs like Rizzuto that shouldn't be rubbing shoulders with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. There's no argument I respect less than "well, Phil Rizzuto's in the Hall, so (blank) should be in, too." By that logic, at least 1/3 of the guys currently in the game could be in the Hall of Fame. You can't use the lowest common denominator as a basis for comparison. (I don't mean to pick on Scooter; there are probably two dozen players even less deserving in the Hall, but I just can't think of any of them right now.) [/tangential rant]

phunwin
01-13-2006, 09:57 AM
Goose Gossage, is from here in my hometown of Colorado Springs, and should be in the HOF....his numbers are better than Bruce Sutters. Hopefully he will get in next year. I have seen the Goose here several times and gotten to talk with him...he is a great guy.

That Sutter made it and Goose didn't is insanity. If you're taking the line that relief pitchers are not as valuable and should be generally excluded from the Hall, that's fine. But if Sutter's good enough, so is Gossage, since Gossage was BETTER than Sutter by virtually every measure.

One can make the same argument about Bert Blyleven and Don Sutton, by the way. Blyleven's career ERA+ was 118. Sutton's was 108. That means that, taking park factors into account, Blyleven was 18% better than a league average pitcher, while Sutton was 8% better. If the two had switched teams, Sutton would have won about 250 games and been a historical afterthought, while Blyleven would have won about 350 and been an instant, first-ballot HOFer.

finfansince72
01-13-2006, 10:03 AM
The older relievers pitched more than one inning too. Gossage is a no brainer, I don't really see an arguement for keeping this guy out. The baseball writers all have an agenda it seems. Id like to be a fly on the wall at some of the meetings these guys have so I could hear who was arguing for and against some of these guys.

phunwin
01-13-2006, 11:46 AM
I think that more and more baseball fans have become sabermetric-oriented, but that most of the BBWAA is stuck in the old-school mindset where things like "grit" and "hustle" count for more than your ability to put runs on the board. By the same token, the fact that Sutter was "intimidating" and a "pioneer" apparently counts for more than the fact that Gossage was better in every way, shape and form.

GreenMonster
01-13-2006, 12:31 PM
I think that more and more baseball fans have become sabermetric-oriented, but that most of the BBWAA is stuck in the old-school mindset where things like "grit" and "hustle" count for more than your ability to put runs on the board. By the same token, the fact that Sutter was "intimidating" and a "pioneer" apparently counts for more than the fact that Gossage was better in every way, shape and form.

I think we get to caught up in stats sometimes especially career numbers. Don Sutton has 324 wins and thats great, but did teams go, man we have no chance today Sutton on the mound. Sure Jack Morris doesn't have the wins, or era, but he was a teams #1 starter for 10+ years and was a playoff rock (12-2). Game 7 of the World Series speaks for itself.

The real saddest thing to me is that Palmerio may still get in for career #'s but was never the feared player that a Rice or Dawson was.

Ray Finkle
01-13-2006, 12:49 PM
Personally, I think Rice gets in next year (and he probably should, but then, so should Ron Santo and Bert Blyleven, both of whom are more deserving, so I'm not losing sleep over it). His vote totals have increased enough annually that he'll probably make it on the next go-around. Plus, his plight generates roughly 1 billion letters each year from Red Sox fans in search of something new to complain about, and eventually, I suspect the BBWAA will vote him in just to shut them up.

There's no way Rice gets in next year with Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn and Mark McGwire on the ballot. In fact I think, I could very well be wrong, but I think this was the last year for Rice's name to be on the ballot.

As for Red Sox fans complaining about something new and writing letters so the BBWAA will vote him in to shut them up, I have no idea where you heard that from or if you're just assuming. I haven't heard one Red Sox fan mad about Rice not getting in. Yes Sox fans are upset about it but after two minutes its over with, Sox fans have more things to worry about like a CFer/leadoff hitter/SS. The Sox fans know Rice should be in but they also realize he pissed off the wrong people.

Ray Finkle
01-13-2006, 12:58 PM
I think we get to caught up in stats sometimes especially career numbers. Don Sutton has 324 wins and thats great, but did teams go, man we have no chance today Sutton on the mound. Sure Jack Morris doesn't have the wins, or era, but he was a teams #1 starter for 10+ years and was a playoff rock (12-2). Game 7 of the World Series speaks for itself.

The real saddest thing to me is that Palmerio may still get in for career #'s but was never the feared player that a Rice or Dawson was.

The problem with Morris is that his ERA was over 4 and if he got voted in he'd have the highest ERA of a pitcher in the Hall. If I had the 10 votes like the writers have I probably would have voted for Morris too but I understand why the writers don't vote for him.

It's funny you bring Palmerio up. Personally I don't consider him a Hall of Famer, even before the whole steroid thing. I know he had the magic numbers of 500 home runs and 3,000 hits HOWEVER look on the flip side: He was never the best player on his team, he was always the 3rd or 4th best, he played in hitters parks his whole career, has only made the all-star team 3 or 4 times and only finished in the MVP voting in the top 10 once I believe. Palmeiro was lucky never to have gotten hurt and also playing in hitter's parks. In my mind Hall of Famers are guys that you pay money to go see play, and Palmeiro was never one of those guys.

Just my 2 cents on McGwire: I think McGwire absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame, steroids or no steroids. In 1998 him and Sosa put fans back into the seats and basically saved baseball after the 1994 strike. McGwire did a lot for the game.

GreenMonster
01-13-2006, 12:58 PM
There's no way Rice gets in next year with Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn and Mark McGwire on the ballot. In fact I think, I could very well be wrong, but I think this was the last year for Rice's name to be on the ballot.

As for Red Sox fans complaining about something new and writing letters so the BBWAA will vote him in to shut them up, I have no idea where you heard that from or if you're just assuming. I haven't heard one Red Sox fan mad about Rice not getting in. Yes Sox fans are upset about it but after two minutes its over with, Sox fans have more things to worry about like a CFer/leadoff hitter/SS. The Sox fans know Rice should be in but they also realize he pissed off the wrong people.

Yes Rice has no chance next year. If they won't let Goose, Dawson, Rice in then instead of voting guys in every year we should vote a player out. That would be interesting who would be the 1st to go.

GreenMonster
01-13-2006, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=Ray Finkle]
It's funny you bring Palmerio up. Personally I don't consider him a Hall of Famer, even before the whole steroid thing. I know he had the magic numbers of 500 home runs and 3,000 hits HOWEVER look on the flip side: He was never the best player on his team, he was always the 3rd or 4th best, he played in hitters parks his whole career, has only made the all-star team 3 or 4 times and only finished in the MVP voting in the top 10 once I believe. Palmeiro was lucky never to have gotten hurt and also playing in hitter's parks. In my mind Hall of Famers are guys that you pay money to go see play, and Palmeiro was never one of those guys.

QUOTE]

I totally agree with you on Palmerio. In 20 years if people goto the Hall and see Palmerio's plack and not Dawson's they may actually believe that Palmerio was a better player. Palmerio is the Vinny T(6th in yards, 8th in TD's all-time_) of baseball, all stats and no substance.

MikeO
01-13-2006, 01:34 PM
I totally agree with you on Palmerio. In 20 years if people goto the Hall and see Palmerio's plack and not Dawson's they may actually believe that Palmerio was a better player. Palmerio is the Vinny T(6th in yards, 8th in TD's all-time_) of baseball, all stats and no substance.
This VINNY T comparsion is making no sense. Vinny has never been considered a hall of fame player, no matter what his stats are. He will NEVER sniff the hall of fame at that position and the NFL lets in everyone.

Palmerio has "remarkable" numbers in hits and home runs. Those are elite numbers and are above and beyond what almost 95% of MLB players ever do. He will get in. If you put in McGwire (which he probably will get in, maybe just not the 1st time around) then you have to put in Palmerio!!

GreenMonster
01-13-2006, 01:47 PM
This VINNY T comparsion is making no sense. Vinny has never been considered a hall of fame player, no matter what his stats are. He will NEVER sniff the hall of fame at that position and the NFL lets in everyone.

Palmerio has "remarkable" numbers in hits and home runs. Those are elite numbers and are above and beyond what almost 95% of MLB players ever do. He will get in. If you put in McGwire (which he probably will get in, maybe just not the 1st time around) then you have to put in Palmerio!!

Are Palmerio's #'s any more "remarkable" than Vinny's. Vinny is 6th all-time in yards ahead of Fouts, Montana, Unitas, Esiason, Kelly, Simms.. He is 8th in TD's ahead of Fouts, Esiason, Kelly, Young. If you are just using #'s to put Palmerio in that is sad, because he was never a great player, merely a good one that lasted a long time. He is a compiler and not a HOFer just like Vinny T.

MikeO
01-13-2006, 02:00 PM
Are Palmerio's #'s any more "remarkable" than Vinny's. Vinny is 6th all-time in yards ahead of Fouts, Montana, Unitas, Esiason, Kelly, Simms.. He is 8th in TD's ahead of Fouts, Esiason, Kelly, Young. If you are just using #'s to put Palmerio in that is sad, because he was never a great player, merely a good one that lasted a long time. He is a compiler and not a HOFer just like Vinny T.

When you think of QB's of his era, Vinny has never been Top 10 at any point in his career. I don't care what the numbers are. There have always been 10 better QB's in the league when Vinny was at this best. That isn't a hall of fame player.

Palmerio in his prime has been a top hitter and a top first basemen in MLB. 500 home runs is an elite club in baseball. Same with 3,000 hits. HE HAS BOTH! Few get one of those he has both! Vinny is nowhere near anything like that with his numbers.

Ray Finkle
01-13-2006, 03:30 PM
Palmerio in his prime has been a top hitter and a top first basemen in MLB. 500 home runs is an elite club in baseball. Same with 3,000 hits. HE HAS BOTH! Few get one of those he has both! Vinny is nowhere near anything like that with his numbers.

Palmerio's number say he is a top hitter and top first baseman however I bet anyone would name about 5 to 10 1st basemen they would rather have on their team or who they think are better before they say Palmerio's name (even before the whole steriod thing). It's funny because Palmerio was never considered a top hitter or first basemen to the public but his numbers say otherwise.

phunwin
01-13-2006, 05:18 PM
Palmerio's number say he is a top hitter and top first baseman however I bet anyone would name about 5 to 10 1st basemen they would rather have on their team or who they think are better before they say Palmerio's name (even before the whole steriod thing). It's funny because Palmerio was never considered a top hitter or first basemen to the public but his numbers say otherwise.

Palmeiro shouldn't be penalized for playing most of his career on bad teams. His numbers are absolutely Hall-worthy. Forget the career totals; look at his season-to-season numbers. They're fantastic and very consistent. Will the recent steroid issues kill his candidacy? I don't think so. People will get over that in time.


There's no way Rice gets in next year with Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn and Mark McGwire on the ballot. In fact I think, I could very well be wrong, but I think this was the last year for Rice's name to be on the ballot.

As for Red Sox fans complaining about something new and writing letters so the BBWAA will vote him in to shut them up, I have no idea where you heard that from or if you're just assuming. I haven't heard one Red Sox fan mad about Rice not getting in. Yes Sox fans are upset about it but after two minutes its over with, Sox fans have more things to worry about like a CFer/leadoff hitter/SS. The Sox fans know Rice should be in but they also realize he pissed off the wrong people.

Read, I don't know, any given Jayson Stark article about the Hall from the last few years. Read any given Bill Simmons or Peter Gammons article on the same subject. And I'd be SHOCKED if there's not plenty of coverage in the Globe or Herald from Dan Shughnessy and others. If you haven't heard one Red Sox fan mad, you obviously don't know many Red Sox fans.

Rice has three shots left. You're right; I forgot about next year's strong class, so he won't get in then, but he might in 2008, which is a weak class, or 2009, which has Rickey Henderson and no one else of note.

Funny note about the 2007 class: also present are Eric Davis, Jose Canseco and Bret Saberhagen. 15 years ago, I'd have bet anything that all those guys would have made the Hall, too. Now, Canseco has a very slim chance, and the other two have none at all.

Ray Finkle
01-13-2006, 06:02 PM
Read, I don't know, any given Jayson Stark article about the Hall from the last few years. Read any given Bill Simmons or Peter Gammons article on the same subject. And I'd be SHOCKED if there's not plenty of coverage in the Globe or Herald from Dan Shughnessy and others. If you haven't heard one Red Sox fan mad, you obviously don't know many Red Sox fans.

Rice has three shots left. You're right; I forgot about next year's strong class, so he won't get in then, but he might in 2008, which is a weak class, or 2009, which has Rickey Henderson and no one else of note.

I found only 1 article from the Globe on Rice. There's a link on Rice and the Hall from Dan Shughnessy:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/11/verdict_is_in_rice_still_a_tough_out/

Nowhere in the article does him mention being mad or the fans. He did say that the Red Sox F.O. sent out pro Rice e-mails to the voters but thats it.

Again I ask you where you heard about Red Sox fans mad enough to write letters so they would vote in Rice to shut the fans up. Like I said I'm sure the fans were disappointed at first but I'm sure they're over it too. We knew Rice probably wouldn't get in due to his relationship with the writers.

As for me not knowing a lot of Red Sox fans who are mad? Please stop assuming things.

Roman529
01-14-2006, 12:40 AM
I miss how Harry Carey used to call Palmiero ...PALERMO....he also use to call George Bell....George BUSH. I don't think Palmiero should go in the hall as he used steroids,,,,plain and simple...the same for Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa.