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ckparrothead
01-11-2006, 01:59 PM
I'm not going to go overboard making a whole lot of these, and this only covers half of the first round because we're so far out from the draft that resolution gets a whole lot hazier at the bottom half of the first. I won't do anything comprehensive until the eve of the draft...and will probably only come up with one more mock sometime between now and then.

1. Vince Young to the Texans
There will be far too much pressure from the fans to keep their hero in town…a la Jake Plummer in Arizona. At one point in Arizona they estimated that 20% of fan attendance was linked with Plummer's presence on the Cardinals. That percentage could go even higher in Houston for Young, where the Texans have yet to repay fan loyalty with anything resembling quality football.

2. Matt Leinart to the Saints
Unless he pulls an Eli, this appears to be his destination.

3. Reggie Bush to the Titans
Norm Chow will be all too happy to be reunited with his favorite offensive weapon. Chow likes Leinart, but deep down I think he likes Bush more.

4. D’Brickashaw Ferguson to the Jets
Whoever they get or put out there at QB, they need to protect him. The Jets were one of the most-sacked teams, and it has been apparent for a while that Jason Fabini is about done. If Mangini becomes the coach, he could show favoritism towards the D, but I think they grab the next Walter Jones when they get the chance.

5. LenDale White to the Packers
New rumors have them enamored with White, and his Rose Bowl performance helped his stock considerably. The rumors make sense. Ahman Green is gone after this year, and the team needs to build around Rodgers. Jim Bates will fight like heck for AJ Hawk, but in the end the offense wins out.

6. AJ Hawk to the Raiders
Very unfair for him to fall even this far. He is the best defensive player in the draft, and quite possibly the best player in the draft period. But, some teams really need offense.

7. Marcus McNeil to the 49ers
I see people keep predicting defense, but the team needs to build around the franchise QB. There are no world-beating receivers here. Time to start protecting Alex Smith. He took 29 sacks in only 8 games…and Nolan won’t let him become the new David Carr.

8. Haloti Ngata to the Bills
They need big uglies on both sides of the line and with McNeil gone, Ngata is the choice because Donahoe is not there to show favoratism toward Hurricanes players like Eric Winston.

9. Mario Williams to Detroit
Millen is a big proponent of drafting the best player available, which has led to drafting three straight receivers. Finally, it will lead to a franchise defensive end, instead. Mario Williams just grades higher than Jimmy Williams, who would be their next target here. And, Millen is not smart enough to draft Jay Cutler and give up on Harrington.

10. DeAngelo Williams to the Cardinals
He is the Arrington that Arrington turned out not to be. Denny Green could also go with Eric Winston or Jon Scott here, but he needs a runner bad and this year's tackle class is deep.

11. Mathias Kiwanuku to the Rams
Time to start building that defense the right way, from the pass rush out.

12. Chad Greenway to the Cleveland Browns
Nick Saban and Romeo Crennel would both have a knock-down drag-out fight over this kid if they could. Belichick would watch, and be jealous that he doesn’t pick higher than them. Greenway is just their kind of linebacker.

13. Jimmy Williams to the Baltimore Ravens
The Ravens defense needs to be kept fresh to keep winning games, and Williams is a perfect fit as a safety to replace free agent Demps. They could go with a tackle, but no other offensive player on the board makes sense.

14. Demeco Ryans to the Eagles
Fits in immediately as a play-making, blitzing, intercepting weak side backer that they haven’t had since William Thomas.

15. Michael Huff to the Falcons
They could use a corner or a safety, and Huff could be either. I won't even go into how good of a player Huff is, because I think most people know already. Drafting him will make the Falcons very happy.

16. Jay Cutler to the Dolphins
Vince Young coming out bumps Cutler down far enough for Miami to get him. The Phins do like him, but Nick Saban will be tearing his hair out as four higher-rated players in Greenway, Williams, Ryans, and Huff all get taken before #16. Cutler is a pretty good consolation prize, though, and he fits everything Scott Linehan would like to do at the position. I would have the team taking Laron Landry or Jon Scott here, but #16 might be a little too high for Landry (the dreaded reach) and I do not think Hudson Houck will sign off on drafting a lineman in the first round. It just isn't his style. He is good enough that he thinks he can find first round quality in the 4th or 5th round, once you shine them up a bit. A lot of the time he's even right.

Philter25
01-11-2006, 02:05 PM
I love your #5 pick. I just posted that about a second ago in another thread.

Where do you see David Carr going if Houston takes young? Carr stays for a year and Young sits on the bench for a year or do they trade Carr?

TotoreMexico
01-11-2006, 02:19 PM
I hope we can get Cutler :pray:

TimeGap
01-11-2006, 02:31 PM
I'll be hyped if that's the way the draft went.

ckparrothead
01-11-2006, 02:41 PM
Who knows where Carr could end up. Possibly the Jets. His style fits their offense as well as ours.

Make sure you take note that I believe Saban has the likes of Mario Williams, Jimmy Williams, Demeco Ryans, Chad Greenway, and Michael Huff rated ABOVE Jay Cutler, and the entire reason I have the Phins taking Cutler at #16 is because those five players are already gone.

If Landry has a great Combine and starts popping into our area on draft boards, then you'll probably see Nick take LaRon.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 02:59 PM
I don't see the Texans taking Young over Bush. No matter how good Young looked in the Rose bowl he is still a project. Bush could be an instant impact player on that team, and Chris Mortenson said that is who they are taking if he comes out (not that he's always right). I also don't see LenDale White going ahead of DeAngelo WIlliams and Laurence Maroney unless he has a stellar combine. I know the Packers are said to be very interested in him and I could be wrong, I just don't see it. I love the Dolphins getting Cutler though and I do applaud you for not making the "conventional" mock of Bush-Lienart-Young like most everyone else, I just don't know if I see it happening.

fishypete
01-11-2006, 03:00 PM
I can't see Saban and Mueller taking a QB in the first round knowing that he isn't going to play at least one season. Especially a QB that doesn't come from a winning program...and is sure to have at least a few problems that will need to be corrected.
It would go against everything Saban has said about using picks and the decisons that Mueller has made with QB's, in the past.

fishypete
01-11-2006, 03:03 PM
I don't see the Texans taking Young over Bush. No matter how good Young looked in the Rose bowl he is still a project. Bush could be an instant impact player on that team, and Chris Mortenson said that is who they are taking if he comes out (not that he's always right). I also don't see LenDale White going ahead of DeAngelo WIlliams and Laurence Maroney unless he has a stellar combine. I know the Packers are said to be very interested in him and I could be wrong, I just don't see it. I love the Dolphins getting Cutler though and I do applaud you for not making the "conventional" mock of Bush-Lienart-Young like most everyone else, I just don't know if I see it happening.

If Texas stopped Bush for the most part....what chance does Bush have against NFL teams...every week? Young is a winner and he'll bring in sales...thats the smart way to go. Even Manning had problems his first couple season's...and Manning was the most ready QB to come out in a long time.

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 03:04 PM
I don't see the Texans taking Young over Bush. No matter how good Young looked in the Rose bowl he is still a project. Bush could be an instant impact player on that team, and Chris Mortenson said that is who they are taking if he comes out (not that he's always right). I also don't see LenDale White going ahead of DeAngelo WIlliams and Laurence Maroney unless he has a stellar combine. I know the Packers are said to be very interested in him and I could be wrong, I just don't see it. I love the Dolphins getting Cutler though and I do applaud you for not making the "conventional" mock of Bush-Lienart-Young like most everyone else, I just don't know if I see it happening.



yea i agree. http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 03:05 PM
If Texas stopped Bush for the most part....what chance does Bush have against NFL teams...every week? Young is a winner and he'll bring in sales...thats the smart way to go. Even Manning had problems his first couple season's...and Manning was the most ready QB to come out in a long time.


if the 117th ranked pass D stopped vince young, what chance does he have agaisnt pro teams?

:sidelol:

and so much for stopping him, the guy had like 70 yards rushing at near 5 yards per carry, and 90 yards recieving.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 03:11 PM
If Texas stopped Bush for the most part....what chance does Bush have against NFL teams...every week? Young is a winner and he'll bring in sales...thats the smart way to go. Even Manning had problems his first couple season's...and Manning was the most ready QB to come out in a long time.
Texas didn't stop Bush. His nubers were 13 carries for 82 yards and a TD with a 6.3 ypc, and 95 yards on 6 receptions. Thats 177 all purpose yards in a game that was obviously not his best against one of the best defenses in football.

He will be an instant impact player in the NFL and most likely the rookie of the year. Texan fans were praying to get this guy before the season ended. They even did a OTL nightly special on it. Trust me, he will bring fans just as much or more than Young who would sit on the bench for a year at least.

And you can't compare Vince Young to one of the most cerebral QBs ever. Manning was as you said the most ready QB to come out in a long time, but Young is far from that. He is not NFL ready by any means and will need time to learn. When you already have a very good QB in David Carr this seems like a no brainer to me.

fishypete
01-11-2006, 03:24 PM
if the 117th ranked pass D stopped vince young, what chance does he have agaisnt pro teams?

:sidelol:

and so much for stopping him, the guy had like 70 yards rushing at near 5 yards per carry, and 90 yards recieving.

Not sure what your talking about Nappy....Bush was stopped by the best defense he faced all year....do certain teams cause problems for players....sure they do...but what do you want...a winning QB....or a running back thats never played a full season and a full game? Bush at best will get 10-12 touches...is that a full time player....worthy of the first pick in the draft? I like Bush...he's a great talent....but you have to place value on his worth.

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 03:27 PM
Not sure what your talking about Nappy....Bush was stopped by the best defense he faced all year....do certain teams cause problesm for players....sure they do...but what do you want...a winning QB....or a running back thats never played a full season and a full game? Bush at best will get 10-12 touches...is that a full time player....worthy of the first pick in the draft? I like Bush...he's a great talent....but you have to place value on his worth.


you dont know what im talking about? how about Texas A&M completeing shuting down vince young. the 117th ranked pass defense in the country. if he cant do it agaisnt them, how is he to do it against pros. . every week.

:sidelol:

Bush is at best a 10-12 carry guy? why cause he had lendell white on his team that was also a top back in the country.

was ronnie only a 10-12 carry guy? i think not.


a winning QB at the college level doesnt mean much

fishypete
01-11-2006, 03:31 PM
you dont know what im talking about? how about Texas A&M completeing shuting down vince young. the 117th ranked pass defense in the country. if he cant do it agaisnt them, how is he to do it against pros. . every week.

:sidelol:

Bush is at best a 10-12 carry guy? why cause he had lendell white on his team that was also a top back in the country.

was ronnie only a 10-12 carry guy? i think not.


a winning QB at the college level doesnt mean much

A winning QB in college doesn't mean much....how about one that loses?

Until Ronnie plays by himself a full game and a full season...I'll reserve my judgement on his worth as the 2nd pick in the draft....your correct...I see both Bush and Brown in similar ways.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 03:32 PM
Not sure what your talking about Nappy....Bush was stopped by the best defense he faced all year....do certain teams cause problems for players....sure they do...but what do you want...a winning QB....or a running back thats never played a full season and a full game? Bush at best will get 10-12 touches...is that a full time player....worthy of the first pick in the draft? I like Bush...he's a great talent....but you have to place value on his worth.
Again, Bush was not stopped by Texas. But I don't see how an argument that one player can have an off game against a bad defense and then another player has an off game against a good defense makes any sense. It was obvious Bush wasn't on against Texas, but he was still very productive. And just because he split time with another back doesn't mean he is any less of a RB (see Ronnie Brown/ Caddy Williams). But he will get more than 10-12 touches. He may not get more carries, but he'll get a ton of receptions and if it only takes him 10-12 touches to put up big time numbers than of course he is worth it. Besides 10-12 touches is 10-12 more than Young will get this year.

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 03:33 PM
A winning QB in college doesn't mean much....how about one that loses?

Until Ronnie plays by himself a full game and a full season...I'll reserve by judgement on his worth as the 2nd pick in the draft....your correct...I see both Bush and Brown in similar ways.


:sidelol:

your not going to dispute anything else.

:sidelol:

Philter25
01-11-2006, 03:36 PM
If Texas stopped Bush for the most part....what chance does Bush have against NFL teams...every week? Young is a winner and he'll bring in sales...thats the smart way to go. Even Manning had problems his first couple season's...and Manning was the most ready QB to come out in a long time.

Jason White was a winner also.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 03:41 PM
Jason White was a winner also.
So was Ken Dorsey and Eric Crouch. Guess who weren't winners. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Donovan McNabb, Matt Hasselbeck, Dante Culpepper, etc. Winning in college doesn't mean that much because the talent disparity from good teams to bad is huge while in the NFL it is very small relatively speaking.

Amars
01-11-2006, 03:47 PM
I want Micheal Huff. We need to solidify the secondary more then QB I think.

fishypete
01-11-2006, 03:49 PM
Again, Bush was not stopped by Texas. But I don't see how an argument that one player can have an off game against a bad defense and then another player has an off game against a good defense makes any sense. It was obvious Bush wasn't on against Texas, but he was still very productive. And just because he split time with another back doesn't mean he is any less of a RB (see Ronnie Brown/ Caddy Williams). But he will get more than 10-12 touches. He may not get more carries, but he'll get a ton of receptions and if it only takes him 10-12 touches to put up big time numbers than of course he is worth it. Besides 10-12 touches is 10-12 more than Young will get this year.

Time will tell which player is the better for the team that selects them. Because they split time....it doesn't give you a real picture of what that player can and can't do...in a full season...perhaps that doesn't have much meaning to you...but I assume it does to many others.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 03:57 PM
Time will tell which player is the better for the team that selects them. Because they split time....it doesn't give you a real picture of what that player can and can't do...in a full season...perhaps that doesn't have much meaning to you...but I assume it does to many others.
A productive player is a productive player. Just because there is another talented RB on the team doesn't mean either RB is any less talented. But if you look around the league it is becoming a two-back league. But if you think Reggie Bush is any less talented because he shares carries with White I think you are in the large minority. Reggie Bush is one of the best college RBs ever and could very well go on to be one of the best pro RBs ever as well. I'm not discounting Young, but if you are the Texans and you already have Davind Carr then why on earth would you pass that up?

fishypete
01-11-2006, 03:58 PM
So was Ken Dorsey and Eric Crouch. Guess who weren't winners. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Donovan McNabb, Matt Hasselbeck, Dante Culpepper, etc. Winning in college doesn't mean that much because the talent disparity from good teams to bad is huge while in the NFL it is very small relatively speaking.

McNabb came from a winning school....so did Peyton, so did Brady and Culpepper....in his own way....Culpepper threw for a 73.6% rating beating Steve Youngs record....he threw for 3690 yds...28 tds and just 7 ints in 403 atts...on a school that one wouldn't say was a stand out. He nearly beat Nebraska, South Carolina and Ol' Miss....remembering that when he played those schools they still had winning records and programs.

fishypete
01-11-2006, 04:04 PM
A productive player is a productive player. Just because there is another talented RB on the team doesn't mean either RB is any less talented. But if you look around the league it is becoming a two-back league. But if you think Reggie Bush is any less talented because he shares carries with White I think you are in the large minority. Reggie Bush is one of the best college RBs ever and could very well go on to be one of the best pro RBs ever as well. I'm not discounting Young, but if you are the Texans and you already have Davind Carr then why on earth would you pass that up?

Carr can't escape a pass rush....Young can. Carr has had a few years to prove that he's capable of winning....he hasn't....and I don't blame him for all of the problems of the Texans....thats for sure. Young will immediately improve the offense...and he'll greatly improve ticket sales....something Bush won't to any great detail.

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 04:06 PM
If Texas stopped Bush for the most part....what chance does Bush have against NFL teams...every week? Young is a winner and he'll bring in sales...thats the smart way to go. Even Manning had problems his first couple season's...and Manning was the most ready QB to come out in a long time.





Come on Nappy....one game doesn't make a season....if that were the case...USC and LSU wouldn't look good either. I've seen every game he's played this season and he's as good as there is playing today in college. Young is a QB...PLAIN AND SIMPLE...some may not like his play....some may....the only issue that matters is does Saban and Mueller....theirs are the only opinion's and votes that matter. GO PHINS!


You don't judge ANY player by one game.

**sigh**

ckparrothead
01-11-2006, 04:08 PM
I'd be willing to put money on Young to the Texans right now.

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 04:09 PM
Young will immediately improve the offense...and he'll greatly improve ticket sales....something Bush won't to any great detail.



you cant be serious

RalphX19X
01-11-2006, 04:22 PM
A winning QB in college doesn't mean much....how about one that loses?

Until Ronnie plays by himself a full game and a full season...I'll reserve my judgement on his worth as the 2nd pick in the draft....your correct...I see both Bush and Brown in similar ways.
What did Ronnie do in Week 3 vs Carolina?

Finfanforever
01-11-2006, 04:37 PM
I can't see Saban and Mueller taking a QB in the first round knowing that he isn't going to play at least one season. Especially a QB that doesn't come from a winning program...and is sure to have at least a few problems that will need to be corrected.
It would go against everything Saban has said about using picks and the decisons that Mueller has made with QB's, in the past.

Cutler CARRIED the program...that's why they WILL draft him if he's there at #16!

ckparrothead
01-11-2006, 04:41 PM
you cant be serious

I don't see anything wrong with that statement. The Houston folks will get to the game to see Vince Young before they get there to see Reggie Bush...the same as 20% of the people attending Cardinals games at one time were doing so just to see Jake Plummer (hometown hero). And, yes, Vince, especially as a QB, is dynamic enough to have a bigger impact on the offense than Reggie Bush, IMO.

Oboy
01-11-2006, 05:10 PM
I can't see Saban and Mueller taking a QB in the first round knowing that he isn't going to play at least one season. Especially a QB that doesn't come from a winning program...and is sure to have at least a few problems that will need to be corrected.
It would go against everything Saban has said about using picks and the decisons that Mueller has made with QB's, in the past.
I disagree. I think the fact that he came from a bad team and still put up those numbers (in the SEC mind you = GOOD defenses) just shows that it was all him and not the players around him.

He single handedly beat UT, and all but beat UF. Some complain about the refs in the UF game (but refs are part of the game) I'd point to some of his receivers. They dropped a LOT of passes in that game. Passes that were placed PERFECTLY on their hands. I am a believer in Cutler. If he is there when we pick (I really don't think he will be) then I'd be estatic that we have a young QB that should be our QB for many years.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 06:26 PM
McNabb came from a winning school....so did Peyton, so did Brady and Culpepper....in his own way....Culpepper threw for a 73.6% rating beating Steve Youngs record....he threw for 3690 yds...28 tds and just 7 ints in 403 atts...on a school that one wouldn't say was a stand out. He nearly beat Nebraska, South Carolina and Ol' Miss....remembering that when he played those schools they still had winning records and programs.
Coming from a winning school and being a winner is a totally different thing. None of those QBs were winners in college and it doesn't matter what numbers Culpepper put up we arent talking about personal talent here. Talent is something that can't be argued against Cutler. You said Young was a winner and Cutler wasn't, but being a winner in college means nothing. Having talent does.

sports24/7
01-11-2006, 06:30 PM
Young will immediately improve the offense...and he'll greatly improve ticket sales....something Bush won't to any great detail.
How is Young going to improve their offense from the bench. He is not NFL ready and will need to sit a year at least. Bush will immediately improve their offense by giving them a big time play maker right off the bat. And I don't think ticket sales will be any different between the two. Texans fans have been beside themselves for months about Bush. OTL nightly did a special on how they wanted their team to lose out in order to get Bush. People in the stands had signs about bringing him there. Plus he instantly makes them a better team with makes people want to come out and watch the team more. Bush will be the pick and should be the pick.

dominizzo
01-11-2006, 07:26 PM
I like the mock but i want Greenway sooo badly

Nappy Roots
01-11-2006, 09:43 PM
I don't see anything wrong with that statement. The Houston folks will get to the game to see Vince Young before they get there to see Reggie Bush...the same as 20% of the people attending Cardinals games at one time were doing so just to see Jake Plummer (hometown hero). And, yes, Vince, especially as a QB, is dynamic enough to have a bigger impact on the offense than Reggie Bush, IMO.


yea there is something wrong with it. the fact that he said bush WONT do that stuff. bush is the most exciting RB to come through this draft in a long time. people will come to see this guy. and he will definilty make them better offensivly

Mike13
01-11-2006, 09:57 PM
I hope we get Cutler at 16 if not I hope we get a Defensive stud.

General Tso
01-11-2006, 11:51 PM
I'm not going to go overboard making a whole lot of these, and this only covers half of the first round because we're so far out from the draft that resolution gets a whole lot hazier at the bottom half of the first. I won't do anything comprehensive until the eve of the draft...and will probably only come up with one more mock sometime between now and then.

1. Vince Young to the Texans
There will be far too much pressure from the fans to keep their hero in town…a la Jake Plummer in Arizona. At one point in Arizona they estimated that 20% of fan attendance was linked with Plummer's presence on the Cardinals. That percentage could go even higher in Houston for Young, where the Texans have yet to repay fan loyalty with anything resembling quality football.

2. Matt Leinart to the Saints
Unless he pulls an Eli, this appears to be his destination.

3. Reggie Bush to the Titans
Norm Chow will be all too happy to be reunited with his favorite offensive weapon. Chow likes Leinart, but deep down I think he likes Bush more.

4. D’Brickashaw Ferguson to the Jets
Whoever they get or put out there at QB, they need to protect him. The Jets were one of the most-sacked teams, and it has been apparent for a while that Jason Fabini is about done. If Mangini becomes the coach, he could show favoritism towards the D, but I think they grab the next Walter Jones when they get the chance.

5. LenDale White to the Packers
New rumors have them enamored with White, and his Rose Bowl performance helped his stock considerably. The rumors make sense. Ahman Green is gone after this year, and the team needs to build around Rodgers. Jim Bates will fight like heck for AJ Hawk, but in the end the offense wins out.

6. AJ Hawk to the Raiders
Very unfair for him to fall even this far. He is the best defensive player in the draft, and quite possibly the best player in the draft period. But, some teams really need offense.

7. Marcus McNeil to the 49ers
I see people keep predicting defense, but the team needs to build around the franchise QB. There are no world-beating receivers here. Time to start protecting Alex Smith. He took 29 sacks in only 8 games…and Nolan won’t let him become the new David Carr.

8. Haloti Ngata to the Bills
They need big uglies on both sides of the line and with McNeil gone, Ngata is the choice because Donahoe is not there to show favoratism toward Hurricanes players like Eric Winston.

9. Mario Williams to Detroit
Millen is a big proponent of drafting the best player available, which has led to drafting three straight receivers. Finally, it will lead to a franchise defensive end, instead. Mario Williams just grades higher than Jimmy Williams, who would be their next target here. And, Millen is not smart enough to draft Jay Cutler and give up on Harrington.

10. DeAngelo Williams to the Cardinals
He is the Arrington that Arrington turned out not to be. Denny Green could also go with Eric Winston or Jon Scott here, but he needs a runner bad and this year's tackle class is deep.

11. Mathias Kiwanuku to the Rams
Time to start building that defense the right way, from the pass rush out.

12. Chad Greenway to the Cleveland Browns
Nick Saban and Romeo Crennel would both have a knock-down drag-out fight over this kid if they could. Belichick would watch, and be jealous that he doesn’t pick higher than them. Greenway is just their kind of linebacker.

13. Jimmy Williams to the Baltimore Ravens
The Ravens defense needs to be kept fresh to keep winning games, and Williams is a perfect fit as a safety to replace free agent Demps. They could go with a tackle, but no other offensive player on the board makes sense.

14. Demeco Ryans to the Eagles
Fits in immediately as a play-making, blitzing, intercepting weak side backer that they haven’t had since William Thomas.

15. Michael Huff to the Falcons
They could use a corner or a safety, and Huff could be either. I won't even go into how good of a player Huff is, because I think most people know already. Drafting him will make the Falcons very happy.

16. Jay Cutler to the Dolphins
Vince Young coming out bumps Cutler down far enough for Miami to get him. The Phins do like him, but Nick Saban will be tearing his hair out as four higher-rated players in Greenway, Williams, Ryans, and Huff all get taken before #16. Cutler is a pretty good consolation prize, though, and he fits everything Scott Linehan would like to do at the position. I would have the team taking Laron Landry or Jon Scott here, but #16 might be a little too high for Landry (the dreaded reach) and I do not think Hudson Houck will sign off on drafting a lineman in the first round. It just isn't his style. He is good enough that he thinks he can find first round quality in the 4th or 5th round, once you shine them up a bit. A lot of the time he's even right.

Nice mock. A few comments:

5 - I think Hawk would be their pick here. GB's defense is terrible and the number of early entry RBs means they can find quality at that position later on (Gado didn't do too bad at the end of the year either).

7 - Too early for McNeil IMO. It would be hard to pass on Ngata or any of the 3 Williams at that spot for McNeil.

14 - While this pick makes sense, there may also be a strong push to grab the top ranked WR on their board (Holmes?) since no WR has been drafted yet. Of course, Philly has never been a team that worries about appeasing the fans with their first rounders.

16 - Unless Cutler really wows them between now and April I agree that Saban would prefer to go with Huff, Williams or Greenway here (not sure about Ryans though).

sports24/7
01-12-2006, 12:01 AM
16 - Unless Cutler really wows them between now and April I agree that Saban would prefer to go with Huff, Williams or Greenway here (not sure about Ryans though).
I don't kow. From what I hear they are very high on Cutler and considering how many times Saban has stressed how important it is this team has a QB I think if Cuter is there he is undoubtedly the pick and I think Saban even would consider trading up for him if necessary.

General Tso
01-12-2006, 12:20 AM
I don't kow. From what I hear they are very high on Cutler and considering how many times Saban has stressed how important it is this team has a QB I think if Cuter is there he is undoubtedly the pick and I think Saban even would consider trading up for him if necessary.

Unless you know Saban, you haven't "heard" the Dolphins' opinion on Cutler, you've heard pure speculation. Last year many "heard" we were taking Edwards.

Saban knows what everyone else does... this team is going nowhere without a serious upgrade at QB. Whether Cutler is that QB or not remains to be seen. Personally I like him, but if he lasts until #16 then I'm wondering why on earth Detroit and Arizona passed on him when their QB problems are just as significant as ours. Of course, I still believe Aaron Rodgers was the best QB last year and as good as any QB this year... and he made it all the way to #24.

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 12:58 AM
Nice mock. A few comments:

5 - I think Hawk would be their pick here. GB's defense is terrible and the number of early entry RBs means they can find quality at that position later on (Gado didn't do too bad at the end of the year either).

7 - Too early for McNeil IMO. It would be hard to pass on Ngata or any of the 3 Williams at that spot for McNeil.

14 - While this pick makes sense, there may also be a strong push to grab the top ranked WR on their board (Holmes?) since no WR has been drafted yet. Of course, Philly has never been a team that worries about appeasing the fans with their first rounders.

16 - Unless Cutler really wows them between now and April I agree that Saban would prefer to go with Huff, Williams or Greenway here (not sure about Ryans though).

Pretty much everyone has Hawk going to the Pack at #5, but that may be premature. They have to wonder if a linebacker can do more to turn a program around than a top notch runner. Certainly they wouldn't be doing any favors to Aaron Rodgers by keeping the same running back situation. They have receivers, they have tight ends, they have tackles (need interior OL), and if they had a good runner, that really sets Aaron Rodgers up to make a smooth transition.

I just think that with Bush and White gone at #7, the 49ers will concentrate on helping Alex Smith and he needs it. He took 29 sacks in only 8 games. Kwame Harris and Adam Snyder were the two tackles. Harris may not ever make it to left tackle. They will want a tackle and Ferguson will be off the board. McNeil would be a very good pick for that team here, because he is exactly what they need...a protector for Alex Smith. If I thought DeAngelo Williams were the next best thing to sliced bread I would put him here, but they need tackles more than they need runners...because for all the inconsistency, Frank Gore, Kevan Barlow, and Maurice Hicks were actually able to run for decent yardage. I mean, the three of them combined for 1500 yards where Miami's duo combined for 1650. Frank Gore, in particular, showed some real potential with his 608 yards at a 4.8 ypc. Remember, this was a guy that was supposed to be the most talented runner the Canes had in a long time until he went through injury problems. Gore and Hicks can hold down the RB duties for a while, but they NEED offensive line in a very bad way.

Santonio Holmes might not project into the top 15...I don't know. He's got speed and that's great, and he's pretty savvy, but there's nothing that pops out to the Eagles to say, hey you must take me. In the meantime they made their 2nd round WR selection last year in Reggie Brown, and he did show some promise. I think Todd Pinkston comes back to help the position a bit, and Billy McMullen is another guy they drafted in the 3rd a while ago they hope will step up. At one point you have to stop drafting first round WRs just because you haven't seen a guy step up into a #1 role yet, because lets face it, it does take a little time for these guys to develop. They'd be much better off signing a guy as a free agent than drafting a first round guy. On offense the team could have used T.O. but they had more problems associated with their non-commitment to the ground game, and also Donovan McNabb missing most of the year is a gimme. But on defense is where they have not gotten the production they are use to. They couldn't stop the run at times, and they sure as heck couldn't consistently pressure passers at times. Jim Johnson relies on that blitz heavy D and he didn't have effective blitzers. Ryans can blitz, trust me he can blitz.

djfresh47
01-12-2006, 01:11 AM
Not sure what your talking about Nappy....Bush was stopped by the best defense he faced all year....do certain teams cause problems for players....sure they do...but what do you want...a winning QB....or a running back thats never played a full season and a full game? Bush at best will get 10-12 touches...is that a full time player....worthy of the first pick in the draft? I like Bush...he's a great talent....but you have to place value on his worth.

I think Bush will get atleast as many touches as Ronnie Brown gets with Ricky Williams on the Phins. Bush will probably get like 15 carries a game, but he'll end up with close to 20 touches. I think he'll be used very similar to the way Faulk was used in St. Louis.

djfresh47
01-12-2006, 01:15 AM
Pretty much everyone has Hawk going to the Pack at #5, but that may be premature. They have to wonder if a linebacker can do more to turn a program around than a top notch runner. Certainly they wouldn't be doing any favors to Aaron Rodgers by keeping the same running back situation. They have receivers, they have tight ends, they have tackles (need interior OL), and if they had a good runner, that really sets Aaron Rodgers up to make a smooth transition.

I just think that with Bush and White gone at #7, the 49ers will concentrate on helping Alex Smith and he needs it. He took 29 sacks in only 8 games. Kwame Harris and Adam Snyder were the two tackles. Harris may not ever make it to left tackle. They will want a tackle and Ferguson will be off the board. McNeil would be a very good pick for that team here, because he is exactly what they need...a protector for Alex Smith. If I thought DeAngelo Williams were the next best thing to sliced bread I would put him here, but they need tackles more than they need runners...because for all the inconsistency, Frank Gore, Kevan Barlow, and Maurice Hicks were actually able to run for decent yardage. I mean, the three of them combined for 1500 yards where Miami's duo combined for 1650. Frank Gore, in particular, showed some real potential with his 608 yards at a 4.8 ypc. Remember, this was a guy that was supposed to be the most talented runner the Canes had in a long time until he went through injury problems. Gore and Hicks can hold down the RB duties for a while, but they NEED offensive line in a very bad way.

Santonio Holmes might not project into the top 15...I don't know. He's got speed and that's great, and he's pretty savvy, but there's nothing that pops out to the Eagles to say, hey you must take me. In the meantime they made their 2nd round WR selection last year in Reggie Brown, and he did show some promise. I think Todd Pinkston comes back to help the position a bit, and Billy McMullen is another guy they drafted in the 3rd a while ago they hope will step up. At one point you have to stop drafting first round WRs just because you haven't seen a guy step up into a #1 role yet, because lets face it, it does take a little time for these guys to develop. They'd be much better off signing a guy as a free agent than drafting a first round guy. On offense the team could have used T.O. but they had more problems associated with their non-commitment to the ground game, and also Donovan McNabb missing most of the year is a gimme. But on defense is where they have not gotten the production they are use to. They couldn't stop the run at times, and they sure as heck couldn't consistently pressure passers at times. Jim Johnson relies on that blitz heavy D and he didn't have effective blitzers. Ryans can blitz, trust me he can blitz.

I think the 9ers could go left tackle, but they did sign Jennings last year who if ever healthy is decent. The 9ers are in rough shape, talent wise they're the worst team in the league, IMO, they need alot of help.

Motion
01-12-2006, 01:26 AM
I think the whole LenDale-Packers thing was nothing more than a rumor. A buddy of mine that follows the Packers VERY closely told me it was BS, who knows.

djfresh47
01-12-2006, 01:56 AM
I think the whole LenDale-Packers thing was nothing more than a rumor. A buddy of mine that follows the Packers VERY closely told me it was BS, who knows.

I don't know what the Packers will do, but taking a running back would not surprise me. I think White is the 2nd best back in the draft, so it would not be a bad pick, IMO.

Motion
01-12-2006, 02:01 AM
I don't know what the Packers will do, but taking a running back would not surprise me. I think White is the 2nd best back in the draft, so it would not be a bad pick, IMO.

They also have one of the worst defenses in the league and passing on AJ Hawk wouldn't make much sense.

sports24/7
01-12-2006, 03:12 AM
Unless you know Saban, you haven't "heard" the Dolphins' opinion on Cutler, you've heard pure speculation. Last year many "heard" we were taking Edwards.

Saban knows what everyone else does... this team is going nowhere without a serious upgrade at QB. Whether Cutler is that QB or not remains to be seen. Personally I like him, but if he lasts until #16 then I'm wondering why on earth Detroit and Arizona passed on him when their QB problems are just as significant as ours. Of course, I still believe Aaron Rodgers was the best QB last year and as good as any QB this year... and he made it all the way to #24.
Obviosly I don't know Saban, but I have read reports from sources that say Miami's FO likes him. Obviously this may just be speculation, but it may have some truth. I personally don't see what there is not to like about the kid and if I were running the team I would do what it takes to get him. We can't just let another year go by without getting our QB of the future. Could we get one later on in the draft? Perhaps, but your chances of that player turning into anything go down. Brodie Croyle, Darrell Hackney, Omar Jacobs and company could eventually turn out to be nice QB's but by making sure to get Cutler you have a better chance of ending up with a productive QB.

Danny
01-12-2006, 03:36 AM
I'm not going to go overboard making a whole lot of these, and this only covers half of the first round because we're so far out from the draft that resolution gets a whole lot hazier at the bottom half of the first. I won't do anything comprehensive until the eve of the draft...and will probably only come up with one more mock sometime between now and then.

1. Vince Young to the Texans
There will be far too much pressure from the fans to keep their hero in town…a la Jake Plummer in Arizona. At one point in Arizona they estimated that 20% of fan attendance was linked with Plummer's presence on the Cardinals. That percentage could go even higher in Houston for Young, where the Texans have yet to repay fan loyalty with anything resembling quality football.

2. Matt Leinart to the Saints
Unless he pulls an Eli, this appears to be his destination.

3. Reggie Bush to the Titans
Norm Chow will be all too happy to be reunited with his favorite offensive weapon. Chow likes Leinart, but deep down I think he likes Bush more.

4. D’Brickashaw Ferguson to the Jets
Whoever they get or put out there at QB, they need to protect him. The Jets were one of the most-sacked teams, and it has been apparent for a while that Jason Fabini is about done. If Mangini becomes the coach, he could show favoritism towards the D, but I think they grab the next Walter Jones when they get the chance.

5. LenDale White to the Packers
New rumors have them enamored with White, and his Rose Bowl performance helped his stock considerably. The rumors make sense. Ahman Green is gone after this year, and the team needs to build around Rodgers. Jim Bates will fight like heck for AJ Hawk, but in the end the offense wins out.

6. AJ Hawk to the Raiders
Very unfair for him to fall even this far. He is the best defensive player in the draft, and quite possibly the best player in the draft period. But, some teams really need offense.

7. Marcus McNeil to the 49ers
I see people keep predicting defense, but the team needs to build around the franchise QB. There are no world-beating receivers here. Time to start protecting Alex Smith. He took 29 sacks in only 8 games…and Nolan won’t let him become the new David Carr.

8. Haloti Ngata to the Bills
They need big uglies on both sides of the line and with McNeil gone, Ngata is the choice because Donahoe is not there to show favoratism toward Hurricanes players like Eric Winston.

9. Mario Williams to Detroit
Millen is a big proponent of drafting the best player available, which has led to drafting three straight receivers. Finally, it will lead to a franchise defensive end, instead. Mario Williams just grades higher than Jimmy Williams, who would be their next target here. And, Millen is not smart enough to draft Jay Cutler and give up on Harrington.

10. DeAngelo Williams to the Cardinals
He is the Arrington that Arrington turned out not to be. Denny Green could also go with Eric Winston or Jon Scott here, but he needs a runner bad and this year's tackle class is deep.

11. Mathias Kiwanuku to the Rams
Time to start building that defense the right way, from the pass rush out.

12. Chad Greenway to the Cleveland Browns
Nick Saban and Romeo Crennel would both have a knock-down drag-out fight over this kid if they could. Belichick would watch, and be jealous that he doesn’t pick higher than them. Greenway is just their kind of linebacker.

13. Jimmy Williams to the Baltimore Ravens
The Ravens defense needs to be kept fresh to keep winning games, and Williams is a perfect fit as a safety to replace free agent Demps. They could go with a tackle, but no other offensive player on the board makes sense.

14. Demeco Ryans to the Eagles
Fits in immediately as a play-making, blitzing, intercepting weak side backer that they haven’t had since William Thomas.

15. Michael Huff to the Falcons
They could use a corner or a safety, and Huff could be either. I won't even go into how good of a player Huff is, because I think most people know already. Drafting him will make the Falcons very happy.

16. Jay Cutler to the Dolphins
Vince Young coming out bumps Cutler down far enough for Miami to get him. The Phins do like him, but Nick Saban will be tearing his hair out as four higher-rated players in Greenway, Williams, Ryans, and Huff all get taken before #16. Cutler is a pretty good consolation prize, though, and he fits everything Scott Linehan would like to do at the position. I would have the team taking Laron Landry or Jon Scott here, but #16 might be a little too high for Landry (the dreaded reach) and I do not think Hudson Houck will sign off on drafting a lineman in the first round. It just isn't his style. He is good enough that he thinks he can find first round quality in the 4th or 5th round, once you shine them up a bit. A lot of the time he's even right.
Everything is posible right now.I don't see Cutler being there at 16 but I hope I'm wrong.I agree that if Cutler's there Nick could pass on him if a guy higher on his board is still there like Greenway...either way is gonna be very intersting this year cos we have our top 4 picks for the first time since Wanny took over.

Ozzy rules!!
:rockon: :guitar:

BlueFin
01-12-2006, 08:21 AM
A winning QB in college doesn't mean much....how about one that loses?

Until Ronnie plays by himself a full game and a full season...I'll reserve my judgement on his worth as the 2nd pick in the draft....your correct...I see both Bush and Brown in similar ways.

Pete doesn't grasp the concept that Vince Young and Matt Leinart have a LOT more help around them than a Jay Cutler had, you seem to lack vision Pete.

Cutler has more potential in his right arm than Young, and more than Leinarts left arm.

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 10:15 AM
Pete doesn't grasp the concept that Vince Young and Matt Leinart have a LOT more help around them than a Jay Cutler had, you seem to lack vision Pete.

Cutler has more potential in his right arm than Young, and more than Leinarts left arm.

That's a dangerous argument. If a guy isn't productive, excusing it due to "lack of quality cast" will lead you to a lot of heartbreak.

Cutler is what he is right now, a mid to late first round pick.

fishypete
01-12-2006, 12:07 PM
I disagree. I think the fact that he came from a bad team and still put up those numbers (in the SEC mind you = GOOD defenses) just shows that it was all him and not the players around him.

He single handedly beat UT, and all but beat UF. Some complain about the refs in the UF game (but refs are part of the game) I'd point to some of his receivers. They dropped a LOT of passes in that game. Passes that were placed PERFECTLY on their hands. I am a believer in Cutler. If he is there when we pick (I really don't think he will be) then I'd be estatic that we have a young QB that should be our QB for many years.

We can agree to disagree. As I stated...it's not a question of liking Cutler or not...but where does he really belong in the draft...at least to me.
Is he a better QB than those that were taken in lower rounds....that have proved they can play in the NFL? Just how much worth do you give him just because he has a somewhat strong arm? Favre has a strong arm...but he wasn't selected in the first round. Marino had a strong arm...but he slipped almost out of the first round....and I know Cutler isn't a Marino...he isn't close. As far as the SEC having strong defense's....what happened to those that lost their Bowl games? You take away LSU and Florida...and whats the SEC's record?

fishypete
01-12-2006, 12:09 PM
That's a dangerous argument. If a guy isn't productive, excusing it due to "lack of quality cast" will lead you to a lot of heartbreak.

Cutler is what he is right now, a mid to late first round pick.

Potential is what dreams are made of....do you know how many players with so-called potential....never made it in the NFL? Or some in college?

BlueFin
01-12-2006, 01:08 PM
That's a dangerous argument. If a guy isn't productive, excusing it due to "lack of quality cast" will lead you to a lot of heartbreak.

Cutler is what he is right now, a mid to late first round pick.

CK, thats the whole point, Cutler WAS productive without a supporting cast, Leinart and Young can't say that.

Now please, don't twist this into me knocking Leinart or Young, who I think both have big potential, although Leinarts arm strength does scare me(that and the brace around his knee).

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 01:16 PM
CK, thats the whole point, Cutler WAS productive without a supporting cast, Leinart and Young can't say that.

Now please, don't twist this into me knocking Leinart or Young, who I think both have big potential, although Leinarts arm strength does scare me(that and the brace around his knee).

I don't twist anything.

I'll give you the production though I guess. Aside from a three game stretch in the middle that included games against LSU and Georgia, the offense was pretty productive. About 27 points a game overall.

And btw, what I am saying you are excusing is you are excusing Cutler for not leading as productive an offense as Leinart and Young, by saying he didn't have as good a cast. THAT is a dangerous argument and I still maintain that. He was productive enough, but let's put him in his place here, squarely below Leinart and Young.

sports24/7
01-12-2006, 01:50 PM
That's a dangerous argument. If a guy isn't productive, excusing it due to "lack of quality cast" will lead you to a lot of heartbreak.

Cutler is what he is right now, a mid to late first round pick.
From everything I have heard he is a early-mid to mid round pick right now. Both Mel Kieper and Scouts Inc. have him in their top 15 on their draft boards. And most mock drafts have him either going to us or earlier.

BlueFin
01-12-2006, 01:55 PM
I don't twist anything.

I'll give you the production though I guess. Aside from a three game stretch in the middle that included games against LSU and Georgia, the offense was pretty productive. About 27 points a game overall.

And btw, what I am saying you are excusing is you are excusing Cutler for not leading as productive an offense as Leinart and Young, by saying he didn't have as good a cast. THAT is a dangerous argument and I still maintain that. He was productive enough, but let's put him in his place here, squarely below Leinart and Young.

I don't really have a problem with that, but my instincts tell me this could be a situation where the 3rd guy drafted ends up better than the first two.

I put a lot of stock in a guy that can be successful with bad talent around him, and I really don't think anybody would argue that Vandy is sub-par (overall talentwise) for the conference they reside in.

Lets also remember, Nick Saban didn't leave the cupboard bare at LSU, they had an excellent defense, one that completely throttled the Hurricanes, that Cutler had trouble getting anything done there with his supporting cast doesn't bother me, same thing to a lesser extent against the Bulldogs.

I, and many other Dolphin fans, watched Marino carry this Dolphin team a lot farther than they ever would have gone without him. I seriously doubt Montana could have taken the poor defenses, and poor rushing attacks Miami had in those years, to as many wins, to three AFC Championship games, and one Superbowl.

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 02:18 PM
Lets also remember, Nick Saban didn't leave the cupboard bare at LSU, they had an excellent defense, one that completely throttled the Hurricanes, that Cutler had trouble getting anything done there with his supporting cast doesn't bother me, same thing to a lesser extent against the Bulldogs.

It's not that easy. Yes, LSU has a good defense. But, Cutler was attrocious. He completed 34% of his passes with 2 interceptions, 0 touchdowns, 5 sacks, and a safety. He'll be going up against 'good' defenses week in and week out in the NFL. And, he won't always have the ideal supporting cast either. Count that game for what it is, a black mark on his permanent record, so to speak.

BlueFin
01-12-2006, 02:48 PM
It's not that easy. Yes, LSU has a good defense. But, Cutler was attrocious. He completed 34% of his passes with 2 interceptions, 0 touchdowns, 5 sacks, and a safety. He'll be going up against 'good' defenses week in and week out in the NFL. And, he won't always have the ideal supporting cast either. Count that game for what it is, a black mark on his permanent record, so to speak.

Sorry, can't do that, I've been watching football long enough to know better than that.

The difference in talent levels in the NFL is a fine line in most cases, college is a completely different world.

There is no way you can compare Cutler leading Vandy against the 4th ranked team in the nation, a defense built by Saban, to Cutler one day leading an NFL team against, in nearly every case, a similarly talented NFL team.

Parity is alive and well in the NFL, it is not so in college.

In the end, Football is a team game, and many a fine QB have looked absolutely awful when their O-line was so over matched.

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 02:56 PM
It's not that easy. Yes, LSU has a good defense. But, Cutler was attrocious. He completed 34% of his passes with 2 interceptions, 0 touchdowns, 5 sacks, and a safety. He'll be going up against 'good' defenses week in and week out in the NFL. And, he won't always have the ideal supporting cast either. Count that game for what it is, a black mark on his permanent record, so to speak.



Vince Young with all that talent with him, was sacked 4 times, fumbled 2 times, intercepted 1 time, completed 54% of his passes and looked horrible agaisnt the 117th ranked defense. which is worse?

Philter25
01-12-2006, 03:06 PM
I don't really have a problem with that, but my instincts tell me this could be a situation where the 3rd guy drafted ends up better than the first two.



I agree.

I think Cutler has the unteachables that Leinart and Young lack. I dont like Leinarts arm strength and until I saw his post game rose bowl comments, his attitude either. Vince Young's mechanics IMO are absolutely horrible and he lacks armstrength. I dont think his style of play will be successful in the NFL at all. I LOVE Vince Young as a college football player, but as a pro, I dont think so.

I think Cutler is still very rough around the edges. The one thing I love is he has a cannon of an arm that Leinart and Young lack. Cutler is going to need to work on his decision making. In Vandy games I watched, he relied on his cannon of an arm and threw some passes he shouldnt have thrown. Thats something thats easily corrected in the NFL. See Jake Plummer over the past 2 years.

You cant teach arm strength in the NFL. That is a quality I would love for my team's QB to have. Mechanics, footwork, and decision making are all mental things that I think can be molded with good coaching.

Philter25
01-12-2006, 03:12 PM
Ugh. You guys are getting in too deep with stats and single game performances. You need to look at the overall skills and qualities of a guy. Stats IMO are not as important as intangibles and skills that cant be taught. Stats can favor heavily on the team around you. You need to evaluate each player individually based on how he treated each situation. Stats dont always tell the true picture.

Jason White put up great stats at OK the other year. Tom Brady didnt put up great stats at Michigan. Who would you rather have as your starting QB?

A QB can put up great numbers playing in a run first / option offense. That doesnt necessarily mean he will make a good west coast offense QB. Guys like Vince Young and Matt Leinart I think are good QBs, but I dont think they succeed in our system. Vince Young would struggle in Indy, but I think he would be great in Atlanta. Matt Leinart would struggle in Atlanta, but I think he would be good in New York. All 3 of the top QBs in this draft have very very different qualities and match up well in completely different offenses in the NFL.

NorFlaFin
01-12-2006, 03:15 PM
I see the Eagles taking a stud RB maybe even trading up if neccessary. While Ryan Moats(my pick) has shown Lamar Gordon the door. He(Ryan) is still too small to be an everydown back.

BTW:The Eagle invest 1st rd pick in WR last year. Outside of a stud MLB, I don't see them picking defense on day one.

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 03:22 PM
I agree.

I think Cutler has the unteachables that Leinart and Young lack. I dont like Leinarts arm strength and until I saw his post game rose bowl comments, his attitude either. Vince Young's mechanics IMO are absolutely horrible and he lacks armstrength. I dont think his style of play will be successful in the NFL at all. I LOVE Vince Young as a college football player, but as a pro, I dont think so.

I think Cutler is still very rough around the edges. The one thing I love is he has a cannon of an arm that Leinart and Young lack. Cutler is going to need to work on his decision making. In Vandy games I watched, he relied on his cannon of an arm and threw some passes he shouldnt have thrown. Thats something thats easily corrected in the NFL. See Jake Plummer over the past 2 years.

You cant teach arm strength in the NFL. That is a quality I would love for my team's QB to have. Mechanics, footwork, and decision making are all mental things that I think can be molded with good coaching.



:yeahthat:


who knows though how Cutlers decision making will be with a decent team around him. he had to depend on that cannon @ vandy

BlueFin
01-12-2006, 03:23 PM
Ugh. You guys are getting in too deep with stats and single game performances. You need to look at the overall skills and qualities of a guy. Stats IMO are not as important as intangibles and skills that cant be taught. Stats can favor heavily on the team around you. You need to evaluate each player individually based on how he treated each situation. Stats dont always tell the true picture.

Jason White put up great stats at OK the other year. Tom Brady didnt put up great stats at Michigan. Who would you rather have as your starting QB?

A QB can put up great numbers playing in a run first / option offense. That doesnt necessarily mean he will make a good west coast offense QB. Guys like Vince Young and Matt Leinart I think are good QBs, but I dont think they succeed in our system. Vince Young would struggle in Indy, but I think he would be great in Atlanta. Matt Leinart would struggle in Atlanta, but I think he would be good in New York. All 3 of the top QBs in this draft have very very different qualities and match up well in completely different offenses in the NFL.

Well said Philter, those are good examples you gave.

You simply can't ignore the quality of the team around a QB when evaluating him, just as you can't ignore the poor quality of Vandy's O-line, when criticizing Cutler for throwing off his backfoot, or throwing a risky pass, when he knows he has too to have a chance to upset a Florida or Tennessee.

Philter25
01-12-2006, 03:52 PM
I see the Eagles taking a stud RB maybe even trading up if neccessary. While Ryan Moats(my pick) has shown Lamar Gordon the door. He(Ryan) is still too small to be an everydown back.

BTW:The Eagle invest 1st rd pick in WR last year. Outside of a stud MLB, I don't see them picking defense on day one.

They just resigned Westbrook to a long term deal. Also the Eagles love Moats. Despite his size, he has great speed and great stop and go ability... he makes people miss in the open field.

I dont think the Eagles draft a stud RB. Their offense doesnt need one. Westbrook and Moats are like RB/WRs. Philly doesnt have a power running game but instead they use their short passing game as a running game.

Also, Trotter, their MLB, was one of their best defensive players again this year. They need an OLB IMO before a MLB.

Philly has an ageing Runyan at RT, OLB needs, they could use a pass rushing DE, another DT, and an obvious hole at WR.

I think they pick OLB, RT, or DE.

MadDawg020
01-12-2006, 04:00 PM
Mortensen reported last week that the Texans were going to pick up a 6 or 7 million dollar option on Carr and draft Bush. He said they were 99% percent sure they were gonna take that path. So Bush will be the #1 pick.

fishypete
01-12-2006, 04:16 PM
Vince Young with all that talent with him, was sacked 4 times, fumbled 2 times, intercepted 1 time, completed 54% of his passes and looked horrible agaisnt the 117th ranked defense. which is worse?

Vince Young won the best QB in college award....won a national championship...and you want to compare him to Cutler because of one game? A game by the way that Texas won 40-29.

fishypete
01-12-2006, 04:17 PM
Well said Philter, those are good examples you gave.

You simply can't ignore the quality of the team around a QB when evaluating him, just as you can't ignore the poor quality of Vandy's O-line, when criticizing Cutler for throwing off his backfoot, or throwing a risky pass, when he knows he has too to have a chance to upset a Florida or Tennessee.

Upsetting Florida would be something....but Tennessee?

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 04:19 PM
Ok I get it. Let's just disregard everything BAD Jay Cutler has ever done, as simply the result of his being on a poor team. And THEN, lets count everything GOOD he has done DOUBLE because he was on a poor team! Jay Cutler for president!

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 04:21 PM
Vince Young won the best QB in college award....won a national championship...and you want to compare him to Cutler because of one game? A game by the way that Texas won 40-29.



no i dont. but it does work both ways. CK is gonna bring up 1 game agaisnt a much much superior team. so im gonna bring up 1 of vinces games.

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 04:24 PM
Ok I get it. Let's just disregard everything BAD Jay Cutler has ever done, as simply the result of his being on a poor team. And THEN, lets count everything GOOD he has done DOUBLE because he was on a poor team! Jay Cutler for president!


its called reality. in reality, cutlers team is bad. in reality, they cant match up agaisnt top 25 teams, the SEC period. in reality, a bad offensive line lets people get to the QB, in reality, bad WRs cant get open and tend to drop balls, in reality a bad defense keeps the offense off the field.....

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 04:25 PM
its called reality. in reality, cutlers team is bad. in reality, they cant match up agaisnt top 25 teams, the SEC period. in reality, a bad offensive line lets people get to the QB, in reality, bad WRs cant get open and tend to drop balls, in reality a bad defense keeps the offense off the field.....

Yeah, and in reality everything he did in college is to be taken into consideration, and none of it is to be "explained away" or "disregarded"

THAT, is the reality.

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 04:30 PM
Yeah, and in reality everything he did in college is to be taken into consideration, and none of it is to be "explained away" or "disregarded"

THAT, is the reality.



ok :confused:

Philter25
01-12-2006, 04:38 PM
Ok I get it. Let's just disregard everything BAD Jay Cutler has ever done, as simply the result of his being on a poor team. And THEN, lets count everything GOOD he has done DOUBLE because he was on a poor team! Jay Cutler for president! :lol:

Come on CK. I respect your opinion and for the most part find most of your posts well thought out and insightful. I for one wasnt trying to go to that extreme. I try to evaluate a player on each situation, and my point was stats dont always tell the true story.

Good talent around a QB can easily inflate his stats.

Example: Ball on the 10

QB A throws a pass under pressure 8 yards downfield and makes a good throw to his WR under pressure after feeling the rush and stepping up in the pocket. The CB, who was all over the WR on the play, misses an open field tackle and the WR runs 82 yards for a TD. Stats say on the drive QB A was 1 for 1, 90 yard TD pass.

QB B throws a pass under pressure 8 yards downfield and makes a good throw to his WR under pressure after feeling the rush and stepping up in the pocket. The WR, being a freshman, looks downfield for the CB before getting both hands on the ball and securing it. The ball pops up and the CB, who was all over him on the play, catches it easily and skips 18 yards into the endzone for an INT returned for a TD. Stats say on the drive QB B was 0-1 with a TD returned for 7.

Who is the better QB? Stats say QB A is far superior than QB B although they both made the same exact throw under the same exact pressure with the same exact play called.

Philter25
01-12-2006, 04:54 PM
I'd be willing to put money on Young to the Texans right now. Interesting..... I cant believe no one jumped on you with this one right now. Vince Young, as the top pick in the draft.... I dunno.

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 04:58 PM
I'm perfectly aware of the situations in which bad surrounding talent can impair a quarterback's performance. But everyone goes way too far in projecting things that are not based on reality. The reality, the only thing REAL is what the quarterback has done. Everything else is a projection, or NOT reality. You look at the tape. You figure out what he has and has not shown. You look at the stats, to give you perspective on the tape. You do NOT disregard horrid performances just because of poor surrounding talent. It all goes into the evaluation one way or the other.

Remember, a quarterback's job (at the professional level) is not just to put together a string of throws in which you look at them all and say "well i'm not really sure this was all his fault...i mean here you had guys who just were not open, here you had a guy who if he was better could have ran for more yards after the catch, etc." That's not a quarterback's job. A quarterback's job is to make plays of his own and find a way to make it work. The former standard will have you looking at tape of Jay Fiedler and saying "well if he had better people around him..." while the latter standard would have you screaming at the top of your lungs that this is not a guy that will ever lead us to a super bowl.

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 05:02 PM
I'm perfectly aware of the situations in which bad surrounding talent can impair a quarterback's performance. But everyone goes way too far in projecting things that are not based on reality. The reality, the only thing REAL is what the quarterback has done. Everything else is a projection, or NOT reality. You look at the tape. You figure out what he has and has not shown. You look at the stats, to give you perspective on the tape. You do NOT disregard horrid performances just because of poor surrounding talent. It all goes into the evaluation one way or the other.


yes it does. i dont think anyone is disputing that. until people have a tape of him, then those that have never watched him can only look at his stats, his competition, his team, and be completely impressed.

fishypete
01-12-2006, 05:19 PM
no i dont. but it does work both ways. CK is gonna bring up 1 game agaisnt a much much superior team. so im gonna bring up 1 of vinces games.

Even great teams have bad games....great players have bad games. It's plain silly to try to compare what Young has accomplished to what Cutler has or hasn't accomplished.

One can have an opinon that Cutler will be a good NFL QB....but thats just an opinion, I hope we all can agree on that. Cutler can be a boom or a bust...saying that...who in their right mind would use the 16th pick in the draft...for a chance player? If Cutler played on a team that had a winning record like Rodgers or Smith did last season...it would be so easy to say that Cutler is worthy...but we don't even have that to look back on. I'm glad I don't have that responsiblity....you only have one great draft pick....the one pick that should be used for a "can't miss" player.

Nappy Roots
01-12-2006, 05:32 PM
Even great teams have bad games....great players have bad games. It's plain silly to try to compare what Young has accomplished to what Cutler has or hasn't accomplished.

One can have an opinon that Cutler will be a good NFL QB....but thats just an opinion, I hope we all can agree on that. Cutler can be a boom or a bust...saying that...who in their right mind would use the 16th pick in the draft...for a chance player? If Cutler played on a team that had a winning record like Rodgers or Smith did last season...it would be so easy to say that Cutler is worthy...but we don't even have that to look back on. I'm glad I don't have that responsiblity....you only have one great draft pick....the one pick that should be used for a "can't miss" player.



wow. im not going to respond to this **** forever. im done with you about this ****.

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 05:53 PM
Even great teams have bad games....great players have bad games. It's plain silly to try to compare what Young has accomplished to what Cutler has or hasn't accomplished.

One can have an opinon that Cutler will be a good NFL QB....but thats just an opinion, I hope we all can agree on that. Cutler can be a boom or a bust...saying that...who in their right mind would use the 16th pick in the draft...for a chance player? If Cutler played on a team that had a winning record like Rodgers or Smith did last season...it would be so easy to say that Cutler is worthy...but we don't even have that to look back on. I'm glad I don't have that responsiblity....you only have one great draft pick....the one pick that should be used for a "can't miss" player.

Every player in the draft is a chance player. You can't pretend Cutler has not produced at all, because he has. He has his problems and he has his assets. He has put together a pretty good record over there and there's plenty of reason for him to be #16. They scored 27 points a game this year under Cutler in an SEC characterized by tough defense. I mean, that's not NOTHING. Even Dan Marino had a losing record during one season with the Phins. If you're about nothing but the win/loss then I'll sell you Jay Fiedler and you'll be happy to have him...until you start losing games because you realize you just made a horrible investment.

ckparrothead
01-12-2006, 06:01 PM
And by the way Pete, I do find it a bit ironic that you just called out Jay Cutler as a "chance pick" but you've been pumping Vince Young like it's your job all along.

No pick in the NFL draft is characterized by more chanciness than Vince Young.

unifiedtheory
01-12-2006, 09:07 PM
And by the way Pete, I do find it a bit ironic that you just called out Jay Cutler as a "chance pick" but you've been pumping Vince Young like it's your job all along.

No pick in the NFL draft is characterized by more chanciness than Vince Young.

You're argueing with a guy who called Ronnie a bust and Saban overrated.

NorFlaFin
01-12-2006, 10:04 PM
They just resigned Westbrook to a long term deal. Also the Eagles love Moats. Despite his size, he has great speed and great stop and go ability... he makes people miss in the open field.

I dont think the Eagles draft a stud RB. Their offense doesnt need one. Westbrook and Moats are like RB/WRs. Philly doesnt have a power running game but instead they use their short passing game as a running game.

Also, Trotter, their MLB, was one of their best defensive players again this year. They need an OLB IMO before a MLB.

Philly has an ageing Runyan at RT, OLB needs, they could use a pass rushing DE, another DT, and an obvious hole at WR.

I think they pick OLB, RT, or DE.

I'll disagree, Westbrook isn't inspired/scary with the ball in hand.

Trotter opened up at WLB and moved to MLB will the DC realized Mark Semnou(sp) can't tackle a cold.

Boik14
01-13-2006, 12:04 AM
I don't see the Texans taking Young over Bush. No matter how good Young looked in the Rose bowl he is still a project. Bush could be an instant impact player on that team, and Chris Mortenson said that is who they are taking if he comes out (not that he's always right). I also don't see LenDale White going ahead of DeAngelo WIlliams and Laurence Maroney unless he has a stellar combine. I know the Packers are said to be very interested in him and I could be wrong, I just don't see it. I love the Dolphins getting Cutler though and I do applaud you for not making the "conventional" mock of Bush-Lienart-Young like most everyone else, I just don't know if I see it happening. Im not sure even a stellar combine puts Lendale White in the same league as Williams and Maroney, the 2 guys I believe are the best RB's in the draft. White would have to have a ridiculous combine to make me believe hes anything more then a late 1st who could fill a need for a team like NE (Dillons getting older) or Seattle (if seattle is preparing to lose Shaun)

sports24/7
01-13-2006, 12:07 AM
Im not sure even a stellar combine puts Lendale White in the same league as Williams and Maroney, the 2 guys I believe are the best RB's in the draft. White would have to have a ridiculous combine to make me believe hes anything more then a late 1st who could fill a need for a team like NE (Dillons getting older) or Seattle (if seattle is preparing to lose Shaun)
Right. Anythings possible, he looked great against Texas in the Rose Bowl, but Williams and Maroney are both very good RBs and would grade out very highly in any draft.

Boik14
01-13-2006, 12:13 AM
Right. Anythings possible, he looked great against Texas in the Rose Bowl, but Williams and Maroney are both very good RBs and would grade out very highly in any draft.Exactly. Quite frankly I feel that Williams in particular is the best RB prospect since LT and was the guy I was hoping would come out as a JR last year so the phins would draft him. I absolutely love to watch that kid run. I really hope he goes to an NFC team. I do not under any conditions want him in our conference let alone in our division.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 12:23 AM
You're argueing with a guy who called Ronnie a bust and Saban overrated.


Perhaps you can find where I called Brown a bust. Can't argue with the Saban item....anything is possible...and Saban has moved the Dolphins back even where they were two years ago....when he gets them in the playoffs...I'll be the first to say he's done something.

sports24/7
01-13-2006, 12:44 AM
Perhaps you can find where I called Brown a bust. Can't argue with the Saban item....anything is possible...and Saban has moved the Dolphins back even where they were two years ago....when he gets them in the playoffs...I'll be the first to say he's done something.
You wouldn't call turning a 4-12 team into a 9-7 team with Gus Frerotte and Sage Rosenfels as the QBs something?

fishypete
01-13-2006, 12:46 AM
Every player in the draft is a chance player. You can't pretend Cutler has not produced at all, because he has. He has his problems and he has his assets. He has put together a pretty good record over there and there's plenty of reason for him to be #16. They scored 27 points a game this year under Cutler in an SEC characterized by tough defense. I mean, that's not NOTHING. Even Dan Marino had a losing record during one season with the Phins. If you're about nothing but the win/loss then I'll sell you Jay Fiedler and you'll be happy to have him...until you start losing games because you realize you just made a horrible investment.

CK....How many of those tuff SEC teams had winning records...I keep hearing how great they are....but using your facts...a QB...on a crappy team scores 27 points average on them....just how good could they be?

Just look at the teams he played against and won;

Tennessee....5 and 6 18th rated total defense

Mississippi....3 and 8 32nd rated total defense

Arkansas.....4 and 7 53rd rated total defense

Wake Forest...4 and 7 77th rated total defense

And Richmond?

If he had won against a team with a winning record....some here would have alot more to stand on....but every team he beat was as bad as his team.
He didn't carry his team....not once....they beat who they should have beaten....and lost to the teams he should have lost too....it's that easy.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 12:47 AM
You wouldn't call turning a 4-12 team into a 9-7 team with Gus Frerotte and Sage Rosenfels as the QBs something?


Not when you add ronnie and Ricky in the picture....something the team in the prior year didn't have.

Boik14
01-13-2006, 01:00 AM
CK....How many of those tuff SEC teams had winning records...I keep hearing how great they are....but using your facts...a QB...on a crappy team scores 27 points average on them....just how good could they be?

Just look at the teams he played against and won;

Tennessee....5 and 6 18th rated total defense

Mississippi....3 and 8 32nd rated total defense

Arkansas.....4 and 7 53rd rated total defense

Wake Forest...4 and 7 77th rated total defense

And Richmond?

If he had won against a team with a winning record....some here would have alot more to stand on....but every team he beat was as bad as his team.
He didn't carry his team....not once....they beat who they should have beaten....and lost to the teams he should have lost too....it's that easy. We've had our disagreements over V. Young and some other qb prospects but when your right your right.

That is part of the reason Jay cutler is a 2nd rd talent who will go in the 1st cause some idiot team reaches for a qb. That idiot team will not be us imo. :dolphins:

Motion
01-13-2006, 01:01 AM
We've had our disagreements over V. Young and some other qb prospects but when your right your right.

That is part of the reason Jay cutler is a 2nd rd talent who will go in the 1st cause some idiot team reaches for a qb. That idiot team will not be us imo. :dolphins:

Lets hope so! So he can prove most of you wrong. ;)

fishypete
01-13-2006, 01:08 AM
And by the way Pete, I do find it a bit ironic that you just called out Jay Cutler as a "chance pick" but you've been pumping Vince Young like it's your job all along.

No pick in the NFL draft is characterized by more chanciness than Vince Young.


CK....Would I like the Dolphins to get Young....heck yea....but as you should have noted...I've said he and Leinart are out of the Dolphins reach....just because they are out of the reach of the Dolphins doesn't mean we should settle for less....as you wisely stated earlier....wishful thinking can be dangerous. One has to wonder....why would Saban try out couch...it's way too early to be blowing smoke....so I have to figure he's looking for a vet to bring in...and if thats true....forget about the Dolphins using their first round pick on ANY quarterback...as I also stated...I expect them to select one from the 2nd round down to the 4th round....thats where Muellers QB's come from...not the first round. Of course it's all speculation....but thats true for everything said here....that doesn't come out of Saban's mouth first.

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 01:11 AM
One has to wonder....why would Saban try out couch...it's way too early to be blowing smoke....so I have to figure he's looking for a vet to bring in...and if thats true....forget about the Dolphins using their first round pick on ANY quarterback



for a backup :confused:

if we draft cutler, having a vet to start and push him would be perfect, it wont be couch, probably gus.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 01:11 AM
Lets hope so! So he can prove most of you wrong. ;)

I have no problem with taking Cutler with the 2nd round pick...but I don't make the decisions...well none of us do...:D

fishypete
01-13-2006, 01:13 AM
for a backup :confused:

Who said he was going to be a backup? Even Gus said he didn't mind competing for the starting job.

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 01:14 AM
Who said he was going to be a backup? Even Gus said he didn't mind competing for the starting job.



it takes common sense.

if you actually think he would start for us, you.......well im not even going to say.

Boik14
01-13-2006, 01:17 AM
Lets hope so! So he can prove most of you wrong. ;)Rd 2 I think you can justify the risk, and I dont really dislike Cutler. Im just not sold on him as a 1st rd caliber qb. Id still rather have Croyle or Drew Olsen more 2-3rds later.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 01:23 AM
it takes common sense.

if you actually think he would start for us, you.......well im not even going to say.

Common sense? Isn't that what competition is for? If couch couldn't hope to start....I wonder why so many are calling for a rookie....that won't.

Couch has NFL experience....played in that tuff SEC...and actually won games against good teams....averaged 37 points a game. He threw for over 4200 yds 36 tds 15 ints 72.3% comp rate. He could prove to be an interesting player for the Dolphins.

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 01:26 AM
Common sense? Isn't that what competition is for? If couch couldn't hope to start....I wonder why so many are calling for a rookie....that won't.

Couch has NFL experience....played in that tuff SEC...and actually won games against good teams....averaged 37 points a game. He threw for over 4200 yds 36 tds 15 ints 72.3% comp rate. He could prove to be an interesting player for the Dolphins.


:sidelol:


college stats with a player thats 6 years removed? what a pathetic attempt.

Boik14
01-13-2006, 01:36 AM
Common sense? Isn't that what competition is for? If couch couldn't hope to start....I wonder why so many are calling for a rookie....that won't.

Couch has NFL experience....played in that tuff SEC...and actually won games against good teams....averaged 37 points a game. He threw for over 4200 yds 36 tds 15 ints 72.3% comp rate. He could prove to be an interesting player for the Dolphins. Couch isnt as good as his college stats made him out to be or as bad as playing for crumby cleveland made him appear. He played in a gimmick offense @ Kentucky and should have had the coaches come up with some kind of gimmick offense while in cleve cause the lack of talent around him there was sad.

ckparrothead
01-13-2006, 01:54 AM
CK....Would I like the Dolphins to get Young....heck yea....but as you should have noted...I've said he and Leinart are out of the Dolphins reach....just because they are out of the reach of the Dolphins doesn't mean we should settle for less....as you wisely stated earlier....wishful thinking can be dangerous. One has to wonder....why would Saban try out couch...it's way too early to be blowing smoke....so I have to figure he's looking for a vet to bring in...and if thats true....forget about the Dolphins using their first round pick on ANY quarterback...as I also stated...I expect them to select one from the 2nd round down to the 4th round....thats where Muellers QB's come from...not the first round. Of course it's all speculation....but thats true for everything said here....that doesn't come out of Saban's mouth first.

I don't get what you are saying. No other quarterback in the draft is worth picking other than Leinart and Young? There's no such thing as a quarterback that validly grades out as a mid-first round pick? Any QB that does grade out there is just "settling" for not getting one of the guys at the top? Were the Steelers "settling" for Ben Roethlisberger?

sports24/7
01-13-2006, 03:32 AM
Not when you add ronnie and Ricky in the picture....something the team in the prior year didn't have.
Well than you are in the large minority. Not to mention Saban was the one who brought both players in. But even with Ronnie and Ricky most people thought we would still be at the bottom of the barrell. To not be impressed by what Saban did this year is a bit rediculous and stubborn.

BlueFin
01-13-2006, 09:03 AM
Ok I get it. Let's just disregard everything BAD Jay Cutler has ever done, as simply the result of his being on a poor team. And THEN, lets count everything GOOD he has done DOUBLE because he was on a poor team! Jay Cutler for president!

No CK, nobody said that, but you also can't go to the other extreme and ignore the quality of the O-line and team a QB plays on either, they are factors that matter when making an evaluation.

BlueFin
01-13-2006, 09:07 AM
CK....Would I like the Dolphins to get Young....heck yea....but as you should have noted...I've said he and Leinart are out of the Dolphins reach....just because they are out of the reach of the Dolphins doesn't mean we should settle for less....as you wisely stated earlier....wishful thinking can be dangerous. One has to wonder....why would Saban try out couch...it's way too early to be blowing smoke....so I have to figure he's looking for a vet to bring in...and if thats true....forget about the Dolphins using their first round pick on ANY quarterback...as I also stated...I expect them to select one from the 2nd round down to the 4th round....thats where Muellers QB's come from...not the first round. Of course it's all speculation....but thats true for everything said here....that doesn't come out of Saban's mouth first.

Even if we draft a QB, we still have to have a Veteran here to start for now.

Have you considered that Saban may be trying to put some pressure on Frerotte to resign by working out Couch?

Or maybe he's just covering all his bases in searching for the best QB's we can find?

I don't think working out Couch had anything whatsoever to do with the question of whether we might draft a QB in the first round or not.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 10:37 AM
I don't get what you are saying. No other quarterback in the draft is worth picking other than Leinart and Young? There's no such thing as a quarterback that validly grades out as a mid-first round pick? Any QB that does grade out there is just "settling" for not getting one of the guys at the top? Were the Steelers "settling" for Ben Roethlisberger?

Worth picking yes....in the first round NO.

How come Cutler who played against that tuff SEC but only could beat teams that were as bad as his....is a first round pick in some fans minds and is getting all the hype....but kids like Croyle and Shockley who also played in that same tuff SEC....and both had winning records, aren't just not being rated at least equal to Cutler, but both are rated behind him. I'm sorry...but just what did Cutler step in, to accomplish that? If thats not a true sign of being hyped up..I don't know what is.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 10:41 AM
Even if we draft a QB, we still have to have a Veteran here to start for now.

Have you considered that Saban may be trying to put some pressure on Frerotte to resign by working out Couch?

Or maybe he's just covering all his bases in searching for the best QB's we can find?

I don't think working out Couch had anything whatsoever to do with the question of whether we might draft a QB in the first round or not.

Is not Gus and Sage vets? And what makes you think that Gus is worried about Couch or any other vet coming in...especially when I hear all the time...Gus was the starter because he knows the offense best...or was that last season's motto? Of course you don't think signing a vet to replace Gus would stop the Dolphins from selecting a QB in the 1st round....you want the Dolphins to use that first round pick for Cutler....we all know that.

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 01:16 PM
Worth picking yes....in the first round NO.

How come Cutler who played against that tuff SEC but only could beat teams that were as bad as his....is a first round pick in some fans minds and is getting all the hype....but kids like Croyle and Shockley who also played in that same tuff SEC....and both had winning records, aren't just not being rated at least equal to Cutler, but both are rated behind him. I'm sorry...but just what did Cutler step in, to accomplish that? If thats not a true sign of being hyped up..I don't know what is.


:sidelol:



bringing up records again in college. why dont we trade for ken dorsey. give it up petey, records dont mean **** at college, specially when your on a bad team in the best conference in football.

do you honestly know anything about football? thats a pathetic *** post.

BlueFin
01-13-2006, 01:37 PM
Worth picking yes....in the first round NO.

How come Cutler who played against that tuff SEC but only could beat teams that were as bad as his....is a first round pick in some fans minds and is getting all the hype....but kids like Croyle and Shockley who also played in that same tuff SEC....and both had winning records, aren't just not being rated at least equal to Cutler, but both are rated behind him. I'm sorry...but just what did Cutler step in, to accomplish that? If thats not a true sign of being hyped up..I don't know what is.

Pete, I don't really know what your problem is, but what part of Cutler being a prototype QB don't you understand? He is 6'4" 230 pounds with a powerful arm and a nice release and very good mobility, neither Croyle or Shockley can claim all those traits.

You might not know that the SEC Coaches voted Cutler first team all-SEC over those other QB's, he is clearly a premier QB prospect and a clear first round pick, and more than likely a very high first round pick. You may not agree, but that won't change the facts.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 02:04 PM
Pete, I don't really know what your problem is, but what part of Cutler being a prototype QB don't you understand? He is 6'4" 230 pounds with a powerful arm and a nice release and very good mobility, neither Croyle or Shockley can claim all those traits.

You might not know that the SEC Coaches voted Cutler first team all-SEC over those other QB's, he is clearly a premier QB prospect and a clear first round pick, and more than likely a very high first round pick. You may not agree, but that won't change the facts.

prototype QB...Blue? Can you tell us what team's in the NFL have prototype QB's on them? Seems to me, every QB small or large...slow or fast...mobile or immobile strong armed or average armed, have won not only games but Superbowls. Sorry I don't buy that prototype crap.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 02:07 PM
:sidelol:



bringing up records again in college. why dont we trade for ken dorsey. give it up petey, records dont mean **** at college, specially when your on a bad team in the best conference in football.

do you honestly know anything about football? thats a pathetic *** post.

You didn't answer the question Nappy...did you?

Cutler beat teams that were as bad as his own....but he couldn't beat just one team with a winning record....yet we have two QB's in the same conference that not only played better but won games against good teams....yet you want to push a QB thats nothing special.

BlueFin
01-13-2006, 02:15 PM
prototype QB...Blue? Can you tell us what team's in the NFL have prototype QB's on them? Seems to me, every QB small or large...slow or fast...mobile or immobile strong armed or average armed, have won not only games but Superbowls. Sorry I don't buy that prototype crap.

Thats because, frankly Pete, you don't know what the hell your talking about.

You, the proponent of Zach Thomas playing safety, and you, salivating over Stefan Lefors.:sidelol:

But again Pete, what you buy and don't buy are really irrelevent, Cutler IS a premier QB prospect and a first rounder, and he is a "prototype", that being a term all scouts and GM's use to describe the ideal prospects for a position.

Just in case you were wondering, Your boy, Stefan Lefors.....is NOT a "prototype".

fishypete
01-13-2006, 02:26 PM
Thats because, frankly Pete, you don't know what the hell your talking about.

You, the proponent of Zach Thomas playing safety, and you, salivating over Stefan Lefors.:sidelol:

But again Pete, what you buy and don't buy are really irrelevent, Cutler IS a premier QB prospect and a first rounder, and he is a "prototype", that being a term all scouts and GM's use to describe the ideal prospects for a position.

Just in case you were wondering, Your boy, Stefan Lefors.....is NOT a "prototype".

You mean the Lefors that was too small to be drafted....too small to be a NFL QB? That Lefors...Blue? He was drafted...wasn't he.

Like I said....I understand you are living and dying with Cutler...for your sake..I hope he doesn't screw up....maybe than we'll agree...he's no better than a 2nd round pick.

ckparrothead
01-13-2006, 03:03 PM
Worth picking yes....in the first round NO.

How come Cutler who played against that tuff SEC but only could beat teams that were as bad as his....is a first round pick in some fans minds and is getting all the hype....but kids like Croyle and Shockley who also played in that same tuff SEC....and both had winning records, aren't just not being rated at least equal to Cutler, but both are rated behind him. I'm sorry...but just what did Cutler step in, to accomplish that? If thats not a true sign of being hyped up..I don't know what is.

Honestly, this is the kind of opinion you get when you never bother to evaluate the tape and you pay attention only to win/loss records and statistics.

How does he evaluate better than Croyle and Shockley? Because people who evaluate the tape can clearly see that Cutler has more talent and puts his talent to good use more efficiently and consistently than Croyle and Shockley.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 03:30 PM
Honestly, this is the kind of opinion you get when you never bother to evaluate the tape and you pay attention only to win/loss records and statistics.

How does he evaluate better than Croyle and Shockley? Because people who evaluate the tape can clearly see that Cutler has more talent and puts his talent to good use more efficiently and consistently than Croyle and Shockley.

By your standard CK....We should draft every player we can from Vandy....because records don't matter. Do we go after his receivers....without them...where would he be....how about his O-line....kinda silly to say Records don't matter....once you really think about it. Trying to figure what any player can or would do under different circumstances is the wrong way to evaluate players. If Cutler plays average in the senior bowl....or perhaps to say it better...no better than the other senior QB's that will be there....should we still make excuses for him? What if Croyle or Shockley play better...do we still hype him up above them?

ckparrothead
01-13-2006, 03:47 PM
By your standard CK....We should draft every player we can from Vandy....because records don't matter.

That's not my standard, and shame on you for trying to pretend it is. I clearly stated that the source of Cutler's value is in the skills he displays on the tape. It would seem you prefer to argue purely based on ignorance. If that is the case, I won't argue with you anymore.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 03:55 PM
CK...Does this sound like a QB that should be a first round pick....never mind a top 5 pick;

Negatives…Might be a little gun shy from all the punishment he has taken over the years… Needs to do a better job of securing the ball before running, as he has fumbled twenty times the last two years…Must do a better job at the pre-snap recognizing defensive schemes, as he does not always scan the field well…Seems to lack confidence with his receivers, failing to anticipate when his targets will be breaking…Spends too much time eyeballing his primary target, rarely looking off them to locate his secondary receivers…Must learn how to step into his throws to generate better accuracy (steps back on too many of his tosses).

Uses poor judgment at times when flushed out of the pocket, either holding on to the ball too long, resulting in a sack or throwing the ball up for grabs, causing costly interceptions…Has good touch in the short area, but because he carries the ball so low, he does not get ideal trajectory to feather the ball over the head of the defender (this causes a lot of interceptions-18 and pass deflections-75 over the last two years)…Lacks accuracy throwing on the run, especially when unleashing from the left hash…Rotates his hips too much through his release and needs to throw off the front foot more.

I'm sorry...but taking him with a first round pick is playing russian roulette...for a team that can't afford to use their best draft pick for a player that may or may not pan out...it's simple to see you won't get any value from him for at least one year...perhaps two.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 04:03 PM
That's not my standard, and shame on you for trying to pretend it is. I clearly stated that the source of Cutler's value is in the skills he displays on the tape. It would seem you prefer to argue purely based on ignorance. If that is the case, I won't argue with you anymore.


When you stated that records don't matter...only film....thats your standard. May I remind you my friend...that players can look great on film...but never win a game. How many college players looked great on film...but never played well in the NFL? I seem to remember a linebacker...a great guy on film...a great player in college...it was said he was a can't miss player...one of the toughest linebackers to play....and I think he lasted about two years...in the NFL....He couldn't hack it, always injured.
Give me a kid thats a winner....good team or bad....but give me him at the right price.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 04:13 PM
CK....Here's another thought....in all his games....he has NEVER beaten a team especially a SEC team with a winning record. NEVER. In at least three season's...couldn't win against one team with a record that was better than his?


How anyone can make this kid a top 5 draft pick...is beyond me....is he better than Rodgers or Smith was last season? And we all know what happened to Rodgers...once reality came to pass. If Rodgers was better along than Cutler is....how can he be a 1st round pick?

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 04:32 PM
:sidelol: @ pete in this thread.

this **** is getting ridiculous

fishypete
01-13-2006, 04:40 PM
:sidelol: @ pete in this thread.

this **** is getting ridiculous

And I feel the same way about those who believe a QB that didn't win one game against any team with a winning record in three years is a first round selection....very ridiculous.:sidelol:

Look for yourself....maybe your eye's will make you see the truth?

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Vanderbilt.htm

MadDawg020
01-13-2006, 04:48 PM
And I feel the same way about those who believe a QB that didn't win one game against any team with a winning record in three years is a first round selection....very ridiculous.:sidelol:

Look for yourself....maybe your eye's will make you see the truth?

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Vanderbilt.htm

Obviously you didn't listen to Phil Simms the other day on 790. He said something that is absolutely. When you're evaluating college players, especially QBs, you have to separate the player from the team and look at the tape and execution. And he said he saw a couple games with Cutler and said "Wow, this guy is an NFL QB." He said he saw Cutler make throws with pressure in his face, off his back foot, things that you have to do in the NFL, and its all helped by his cannon for an arm. I trust Phil Simms opinion on QBs more than most people, especially since he predicted last year that Alex Smith was not going to be as good as everyone thought in the NFL.

ckparrothead
01-13-2006, 04:54 PM
I'm done with this argument.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 04:56 PM
Obviously you didn't listen to Phil Simms the other day on 790. He said something that is absolutely. When you're evaluating college players, especially QBs, you have to separate the player from the team and look at the tape and execution. And he said he saw a couple games with Cutler and said "Wow, this guy is an NFL QB." He said he saw Cutler make throws with pressure in his face, off his back foot, things that you have to do in the NFL, and its all helped by his cannon for an arm. I trust Phil Simms opinion on QBs more than most people, especially since he predicted last year that Alex Smith was not going to be as good as everyone thought in the NFL.

Now that was a hard prediction...especially when he went to the worst team in football. Did anyone expect Smith to play all pro...in his rookie season on that team? Heck look at Manning...did he light it up for the Giants...in his second season? How bad did he look in his playoff game...and he surely has alot more talent playing with him than Smith does. Did Simms also say this?

Might be a little gun shy from all the punishment he has taken over the years… Needs to do a better job of securing the ball before running, as he has fumbled twenty times the last two years…Must do a better job at the pre-snap recognizing defensive schemes, as he does not always scan the field well…Seems to lack confidence with his receivers, failing to anticipate when his targets will be breaking…Spends too much time eyeballing his primary target, rarely looking off them to locate his secondary receivers…Must learn how to step into his throws to generate better accuracy (steps back on too many of his tosses).

Uses poor judgment at times when flushed out of the pocket, either holding on to the ball too long, resulting in a sack or throwing the ball up for grabs, causing costly interceptions…Has good touch in the short area, but because he carries the ball so low, he does not get ideal trajectory to feather the ball over the head of the defender (this causes a lot of interceptions-18 and pass deflections-75 over the last two years)…Lacks accuracy throwing on the run, especially when unleashing from the left hash…Rotates his hips too much through his release and needs to throw off the front foot more.

Taken from NFLDraftscout.com.....the same people who supply info to guy's like Simms.

fishypete
01-13-2006, 05:03 PM
I'm done with this argument.

Why CK....Aren't you the person who said to Blue about dangerous expectations? You must have some feeling that Cutler is being hyped up.

Do you agree that he has never beaten a team with a winning record? In three years?

How many times have you seen a QB....RB...WR, take over a game...even if they were on a crappy team...and will a win? Cutler if he is a first round QB...sure never proved that on the field...did he.

What would you rather have...a QB that on film looks good....or a player that wins against the odds?

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 05:05 PM
Why CK....Aren't you the person who said to Blue about dangerous expectations? You must have some feeling that Cutler is being hyped up.

Do you agree that he has never beaten a team with a winning record? In three years?

How many times have you seen a QB....RB...WR, take over a game...even if they were on a crappy team...and will a win? Cutler if he is a first round QB...sure never proved that on the field...did he.

What would you rather have...a QB that on film looks good....or a player that wins against the odds?


nope your right. lets trade our first for ken dorsey

:sidelol:

fishypete
01-13-2006, 05:09 PM
nope your right. lets trade our first for ken dorsey

:sidelol:

Stop being the fool Nappy....no one said anything about Dorsey...or that Cutler wouldn't be interesting after the first round.

Nappy Roots
01-13-2006, 05:13 PM
Stop being the fool Nappy....no one said anything about Dorsey...or that Cutler wouldn't be interesting after the first round.




ken dorsey won in college. lets get him :sidelol:

ether79
01-13-2006, 05:31 PM
Stop being the fool Nappy....no one said anything about Dorsey...or that Cutler wouldn't be interesting after the first round.

It is amazing to me that you are the only person that I have seen that says Cutler isn't a 1st round talent. What you use to judge a person is so flawed. Cutler is a consensus 1st rounder. Don't bother replying because I'm not replying to you. I have seen everything I need to from you on this subject, I just wanted to say that.

ckparrothead
01-13-2006, 05:41 PM
ken dorsey won in college. lets get him :sidelol:

Or Jason White...

BlueFin
01-13-2006, 06:17 PM
Now that was a hard prediction...especially when he went to the worst team in football. Did anyone expect Smith to play all pro...in his rookie season on that team? Heck look at Manning...did he light it up for the Giants...in his second season? How bad did he look in his playoff game...and he surely has alot more talent playing with him than Smith does. Did Simms also say this?

Might be a little gun shy from all the punishment he has taken over the years… Needs to do a better job of securing the ball before running, as he has fumbled twenty times the last two years…Must do a better job at the pre-snap recognizing defensive schemes, as he does not always scan the field well…Seems to lack confidence with his receivers, failing to anticipate when his targets will be breaking…Spends too much time eyeballing his primary target, rarely looking off them to locate his secondary receivers…Must learn how to step into his throws to generate better accuracy (steps back on too many of his tosses).

Uses poor judgment at times when flushed out of the pocket, either holding on to the ball too long, resulting in a sack or throwing the ball up for grabs, causing costly interceptions…Has good touch in the short area, but because he carries the ball so low, he does not get ideal trajectory to feather the ball over the head of the defender (this causes a lot of interceptions-18 and pass deflections-75 over the last two years)…Lacks accuracy throwing on the run, especially when unleashing from the left hash…Rotates his hips too much through his release and needs to throw off the front foot more.

Taken from NFLDraftscout.com.....the same people who supply info to guy's like Simms.

What year was that referring too Pete? Because I know it wasn't his senior year.

I guess by your standards, Brady Quinn sucks, because before this year he did.

BlueFin
01-14-2006, 10:19 AM
Pete?

fishypete
01-14-2006, 12:12 PM
What year was that referring too Pete? Because I know it wasn't his senior year.

I guess by your standards, Brady Quinn sucks, because before this year he did.


I believe that was from 2004 Blue...they are still updating so 2005 on all players hasn't been completed yet...it is only January.

Blue....I didn't say Cutler sucked....all I'm saying is he's being hyped up. Here's a kid that in 3 years couldn't win one game against a team with a winning record...regardless of what others may think...that has to raise a red flag. Selecting him in the first round is dangerous...I wouldn't use more than a second round pick on him. Brady Quinn doesn't suck either...but he sure didn't look great in his bowl game...but was that him or just a whole team let-down?

fishypete
01-14-2006, 12:40 PM
CK....The player thats getting over looked as a QB is Micheal Robinson. He is far from a finished project...but he has many qualities that you look for in a QB. One thing is for sure he has a very strong arm....and has decent foot speed.

"QB Michael Robinson was a question mark at the start of the season but no longer. He completed 141 of 272 passes for 2,097 yards with 16 TD passes and nine interceptions. He also ran for 785 yards and 11 touchdowns during the regular season and was virtually impossible for opponents to shut down."

He would be an interesting project player and he'll likely be there in the late 4th to 5th round area. Do you think he fits as a Mueller type QB?

BlueFin
01-14-2006, 03:12 PM
I believe that was from 2004 Blue...they are still updating so 2005 on all players hasn't been completed yet...it is only January.

Blue....I didn't say Cutler sucked....all I'm saying is he's being hyped up. Here's a kid that in 3 years couldn't win one game against a team with a winning record...regardless of what others may think...that has to raise a red flag. Selecting him in the first round is dangerous...I wouldn't use more than a second round pick on him. Brady Quinn doesn't suck either...but he sure didn't look great in his bowl game...but was that him or just a whole team let-down?

Why don't you bring out Brady Quinn's evaluations from 2004 and before? You are intentionally trying to smear him with old information.

Wake up Pete, we're talking about Vanderbilt here, not a football powerhouse, to say Cutler hasn't proven anything, is like saying Marino didn't prove anything because he never won a superbowl, sorry, surrounding cast DOES matter.

fishypete
01-14-2006, 08:55 PM
Why don't you bring out Brady Quinn's evaluations from 2004 and before? You are intentionally trying to smear him with old information.

Wake up Pete, we're talking about Vanderbilt here, not a football powerhouse, to say Cutler hasn't proven anything, is like saying Marino didn't prove anything because he never won a superbowl, sorry, surrounding cast DOES matter.


Blue....it's the most current info posted....and are you saying we should only count the info that makes him look good? Who's hyping him then Blue?

How come surrounding cast only counts when you say he scored 27 points average against the teams he faced....but when proof show's you that in three years of being a QB....he couldn't beat a team with a winning record....he's surrounded by lousy players? Seems to me Blue....you want it both ways. Did Marino win games against better teams Blue....did he have something in him that willed him to win? You bet your bottom end...he did...and Cutler ain't no Marino. I, find it very funny that you argue so much for Cutler Blue...when the only difference we have is where he's truely valued at....you believe he's a first rounder...and I believe he's no better than a second rounder.

RunningBackGuru
01-14-2006, 08:56 PM
Nice mock. I agree with most. I really hope we do get Cutler, he would be great for us.