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AZfinfan
01-13-2006, 11:33 AM
Ok fellow fish fans I was curious as to what you all think. For the sake of this discussion please try to push aside the bias that is "Tom Brady sucks" I wish that was true but we all know that it isn't. My question is where do Dolphin fans think that Tom Brady falls on the all time list of qbs. Is it far to put him with the likes of Joe Montana, Steve Young, John Elway and Dan Marino. I am aware that he has greatly benifited from a fantastic coaching staff and an all star defense but personally I think that he is the best qb in the league. Personally if I had to start a team right now and I had the first overall pick it would be Tom Brady. I would like to hear what other think of him.

SCall13
01-13-2006, 12:03 PM
Tom Brady is a good QB and plays great within the system in New England. But if you were to put him into the system, for example, where Manning is, or Favre, Linehan's system, or Marino's (when he played) how well would he do? I don't think Brady fits into the throw it downfield style of offense. Of course any QB will hit the long ball when the short stuff is successful and the running game is working. But to throw downfield alot and hit on a high percentage and be successful is another story. I don't think Brady would fit into that style. He couldn't replace Manning in Manning's offense. But Manning would do well in Brady's. So who is the better QB skill-wise between these two? Manning is. Who is the better leader and shows more confidence and poise? Probably Brady.
Brady couldn't have played in Marino's spot in the 80's. He just doesn't have the arm to do it, IMO. But again, Marino would have been succesful in any offense because he had the arm and accuracy to make ANY throw. The same goes for Elway.
SO I guess it really depends on what type of offense I was going to run. A short, quick pass offense with an occasional long ball off of play action or after pulling the safeties up with the short stuff, it would be easy to choose Brady. If it were a verticle passing offense with alot of deep outs, deep posts, fly routes, seam passes, etc., I would want the stronger-armed QB.

AZfinfan
01-13-2006, 01:29 PM
I would say that is a fair assesment. By no means am I in love with Tom Brady I just started to the thread because I get sick of hearing that he isn't a good qb by some people in the main forum. I was under the impression from watching Brady that he does have a strong arm. Nonetheless thanks for your imput you made some very good points.

Dolphin1184
01-13-2006, 07:15 PM
Tom Brady is an excellent QB and has shown that over the years. I don't have to like him to see that. Nevertheless, the Patriots better lose to Denver.

unifiedtheory
01-13-2006, 09:36 PM
What do I think of Brady?

He's the best player in the NFL reagrdless of position.

If I'm starting a franchise and I can have any player in the league I take him...and it would take me less time to think about that then to actually announce his name.

RunningBackGuru
01-13-2006, 10:50 PM
What do I think of Brady?

He's the best player in the NFL reagrdless of position.

If I'm starting a franchise and I can have any player in the league I take him...and it would take me less time to think about that then to actually announce his name.

I agree. He just always wins, and that's what players are supposed to go out and do. And that really hurts me to say that, because I have the guy.

Blitz
01-14-2006, 12:34 AM
Who would you rather have at the helm while being down four points with two minutes to go in a must-win game? Marino and Montana are the only guys I would pick before Brady.

I hate to say it, but he's the best QB in the league.

dont fumble
01-14-2006, 02:00 AM
I'm not sure that there are a lot of people on this board who are saying that he is not good. OK, I admit, they are saying it, but they don't think so. The problem is, that the media says he is the best and a lot of people here just don't agree. They overreact because they think he is overrated and that's why a lot of people say that he sucks.




I personally think he is good, but by far not the best QB or even player in the NFL. He reads defenses well and is very accurate in the short and medium range. His long passes are above average, but nothing special. He executes the gameplan well. But that brings us to the Belichick factor. Let's face it. Over the last years, the Patriots had by far the best system and every system has its products. I think Brady is one of it. He is good, but not as good as Belichick makes him look like. And Brady is not the only product. Remember Damien Woody? Two years ago he was supposed to be a premium Center/Guard. One question: How is he doing now?

Seriously. Guys like Fiedler were criticized a lot on this board. But if Brady had to play under Wannstedt with our poor pass-blocking, he would have done worse than Fiedler (for explanation see below). That doesn't mean that the Pats would be better with Fiedler (they wouldn't) but it shows the impact of the system and individual strength. If Brady had played for us the last years, he definitely wouldn't have a Superbowl ring and no one would mention Brady when talking about the best QB.

Here my main critic on Brady:
Brady can't handle the pressure of a pass rush. He can't scramble, but so couldn't Marino. But If Brady doesn't make the right read before the snap, he is lost and makes a lot of bad decisions. (I know, Madden wouldn’t agree with me, because he and Favre are the toughest in the pocket blah blah blah…, but I don’t care). Just take a look at last year's Monday night game. Or this years game against the Chiefs when the O-line needed this one game to come together after all the injuries. He had 8 Ints in these two games. But now, with the O-line playing great again (despite all their injuries, great coaching, again) he plays so much better. Of course, everyone would do better, but in Bradys' case the difference is extreme. Another great example, especially with reference to the media overrating him, is the Superbowl against the Panthers. In the fourth quarter the Pats had a 21-16 lead and a 3rd and 9 at the Panthers 9. This was the only play when Peppers and co were able to put real pressure on Brady (great O-line play, again). He threw into triple coverage and the famous R. Howard intercepted the ball. The game could have been over, but Brady almost threw it away. We all know the end of the story. Brady was voted Superbowl MVP the second time. But the joke is, that he even wasn’t the best QB on the field. Delhomme faced the better Defense and was pressured all the time, but he was playing great (One fumble, but that was a hit from the blind side, not his fault). Brady was good, but not great. The Pats won BECAUSE of a better Defense, better pass-blocking, better kicking and DESPITE weaker quarterbacking. If you don’t believe me, watch the Superbowl again.

But that's the problem with the media and everybody should keep his eyes wide open. Just take a look at this years MVP. Pick the more important factor. Alexander or the Seahawks O-line? Brady or Belichick? Marino or a system?

I would vote for Seahawks O-Line, Belichick and Marino...

nopony
01-14-2006, 02:45 AM
Who the heck thinks Brady isn't good?

I don't think he's the best QB in the league right now and i certainly think it's too early to put him with Montana and Marino...

But he's a great quarterback.

FinsNCanes
01-14-2006, 03:40 AM
He's "good".


Product of a very good system/schemes/defense. Put him on the Cardinals and see if he can actually carry a team. Hell..BB makes everyone look good even if they are mediocere.

unifiedtheory
01-14-2006, 05:03 AM
I'm not sure that there are a lot of people on this board who are saying that he is not good. OK, I admit, they are saying it, but they don't think so. The problem is, that the media says he is the best and a lot of people here just don't agree. They overreact because they think he is overrated and that's why a lot of people say that he sucks.




I personally think he is good, but by far not the best QB or even player in the NFL. He reads defenses well and is very accurate in the short and medium range. His long passes are above average, but nothing special. He executes the gameplan well. But that brings us to the Belichick factor. Let's face it. Over the last years, the Patriots had by far the best system and every system has its products. I think Brady is one of it. He is good, but not as good as Belichick makes him look like. And Brady is not the only product. Remember Damien Woody? Two years ago he was supposed to be a premium Center/Guard. One question: How is he doing now?

Seriously. Guys like Fiedler were criticized a lot on this board. But if Brady had to play under Wannstedt with our poor pass-blocking, he would have done worse than Fiedler (for explanation see below). That doesn't mean that the Pats would be better with Fiedler (they wouldn't) but it shows the impact of the system and individual strength. If Brady had played for us the last years, he definitely wouldn't have a Superbowl ring and no one would mention Brady when talking about the best QB.

Here my main critic on Brady:
Brady can't handle the pressure of a pass rush. He can't scramble, but so couldn't Marino. But If Brady doesn't make the right read before the snap, he is lost and makes a lot of bad decisions. (I know, Madden wouldn’t agree with me, because he and Favre are the toughest in the pocket blah blah blah…, but I don’t care). Just take a look at last year's Monday night game. Or this years game against the Chiefs when the O-line needed this one game to come together after all the injuries. He had 8 Ints in these two games. But now, with the O-line playing great again (despite all their injuries, great coaching, again) he plays so much better. Of course, everyone would do better, but in Bradys' case the difference is extreme. Another great example, especially with reference to the media overrating him, is the Superbowl against the Panthers. In the fourth quarter the Pats had a 21-16 lead and a 3rd and 9 at the Panthers 9. This was the only play when Peppers and co were able to put real pressure on Brady (great O-line play, again). He threw into triple coverage and the famous R. Howard intercepted the ball. The game could have been over, but Brady almost threw it away. We all know the end of the story. Brady was voted Superbowl MVP the second time. But the joke is, that he even wasn’t the best QB on the field. Delhomme faced the better Defense and was pressured all the time, but he was playing great (One fumble, but that was a hit from the blind side, not his fault). Brady was good, but not great. The Pats won BECAUSE of a better Defense, better pass-blocking, better kicking and DESPITE weaker quarterbacking. If you don’t believe me, watch the Superbowl again.

But that's the problem with the media and everybody should keep his eyes wide open. Just take a look at this years MVP. Pick the more important factor. Alexander or the Seahawks O-line? Brady or Belichick? Marino or a system?

I would vote for Seahawks O-Line, Belichick and Marino...

I was reading your post until you put Jay Fiedler and Tom Brady in the same sentence...

Tom Brady, when he is done, will be historically great, I'm talking about a top 5 player that has ever played the sport and you put him in the same sentence as Jay freaking Fiedler.

PressCoverage
01-14-2006, 05:36 AM
I was reading your post until you put Jay Fiedler and Tom Brady in the same sentence...

Tom Brady, when he is done, will be historically great, I'm talking about a top 5 player that has ever played the sport and you put him in the same sentence as Jay freaking Fiedler.

yeah, i'm sorry... i'm gonna haveta agree there... he already has Hall of Fame credentials, no doubt about it... He is also incredibly clutch and fiery....You don't win three Super Bowls because of the system.... You don't thrive despite no running game (see '03)... You don't have a 2:1 TD/Int ratio for your career unless you're truly great...

we can't say with any certainty he wouldn't still do well in another system, and the likelyhood is that he he'd still find a way to be productive, even if playing for Chris Foerster and Dave Wannstedt, as you suggest... Regardless, I don't remember Joe Montana ever being in a "bad system"...

As for his arm strength, he can hump it up there more than adequately... It's not an Elway rifle, but there's plenty enough... And I daresay he's more accurate than Elway was... Sure, he's less effective with a fierce rush, but what quarterback isn't?... And his deep ball IS special, make no mistake... He drops it in the bread basket from 50 yards as good as any I've ever seen.

If he keeps close to this statistical pace, and perhaps wins one more Super Bowl, I'd say he's among the best 3-4 of all time. ...

Nonetheless, I love how Jason Taylor abuses him...

dont fumble
01-14-2006, 11:07 AM
I was reading your post until you put Jay Fiedler and Tom Brady in the same sentence...

Tom Brady, when he is done, will be historically great, I'm talking about a top 5 player that has ever played the sport and you put him in the same sentence as Jay freaking Fiedler.


Well, I think I tried to explain why I 'compared' these to. If you don't like it and don't agree with my analysis, fine, but there is nothing wrong in putting the names of two nfl quarterbacks in the same sentence.
Another example:
Wannstedt and Shula were both head coaches of the Dolphins. Shula was better. But Shula coaching the 2005 Texans wouldn't have been as successful (recordwise) as Wannstedt leading this years Colts. Anything wrong with that?
At least I tried to explain my point of view, whether you agree or not is a different story. Unfortunatly, I can't say that about your two posts in this thread. I'll try it again:
Fiedler is not better than Brady! But he is tougher in the pocket and has better scrambling abilities. That's why Brady wouldn't have been better than Fiedler with the Dolphins in the past. And since Wannstedt never adjusted to his players strength, Brady would have had no chance.
Fiedler would have no chance in the Pats current system. They throw so many quick outs, Fiedler would have one pick after another. Belichick would adjust to it and Fiedler wouldn't have to throw the outs, but the Patriots wouldn't be as successful under the adjusted 'Fiedler-system' than they are under the current 'Brady-system'.
Of course no one will ever now, but that's my opinion and I tried to be reasonable.

dont fumble
01-14-2006, 11:37 AM
And his deep ball IS special, make no mistake... He drops it in the bread basket from 50 yards as good as any I've ever seen.


Yeah, he has a great touch on the deep ball, that's right. If his receivers get behind the secondary (and he has time), he is without a question one of the best, if not the best. But due to his arm strength he needs the help of his receivers more than guys like Favre, Manning, Elway, Marino or Collins (Attention. No, Collins is not better than Brady!). Brady is not good in completing long passes into tight covarge or even double coverage. If the safetys keep the play in front of them, than they will able to jump in the passing lane and intercept the ball. That's why I think that in summary his deep ball is nothing special.

Agua
01-14-2006, 12:00 PM
Hall of fame player in the end.

AZfinfan
01-14-2006, 02:17 PM
Who the heck thinks Brady isn't good?

I don't think he's the best QB in the league right now and i certainly think it's too early to put him with Montana and Marino...

But he's a great quarterback.

I don't think that anyone actually truely believes that he sucks, however I just wanted to find out where dolphin fans that can see past the Patriots uniform would put him on the all time list. Often times in the main forum I hear things like "product of the system" "over rated" "I don't understand why everyone thinks he is so great" It seems that most people here are saying that when he is all done he will have a trip to Canton. I think that is where he belongs. Just curious to what Fish fans truely believe.

So if Brady's career last another 5-6 years and he continues to lead his team to the playoffs (im not saying winning the superbowl) and putting up numbers like 3500 yds, 28 tds, 14 ints would he then in your opinion be in the likes of Montana, Elway, Marino?

unifiedtheory
01-14-2006, 02:26 PM
I don't think that anyone actually truely believes that he sucks, however I just wanted to find out where dolphin fans that can see past the Patriots uniform would put him on the all time list. Often times in the main forum I hear things like "product of the system" "over rated" "I don't understand why everyone thinks he is so great" It seems that most people here are saying that when he is all done he will have a trip to Canton. I think that is where he belongs. Just curious to what Fish fans truely believe.

So if Brady's career last another 5-6 years and he continues to lead his team to the playoffs (im not saying winning the superbowl) and putting up numbers like 3500 yds, 28 tds, 14 ints would he then in your opinion be in the likes of Montana, Elway, Marino?

I think he is already in the Montana, Unitas, Elway and Marino class...it is just a case of how far up that list he goes.

I'd put him top 5 personally...right behind the 4 guys I listed.

maddendude
01-14-2006, 02:33 PM
I think hes a great QB actually. He rarely makes mistakes, most of his throws are right on the money, and he's good at finding the open guy...but it kinda seems as if, he sees 2 guys on the field, and picks 1 and uses his accuracy to squeeze the ball in, not necessarily find an open guy.

I think he IS up there with the greats just cuz of superbowls and media will put him up there, but hes not truely with them until he has some better season, which he had this season. They say hes a winner, but his team wins games...and when the stars on the team are hurt, they lose, like this season. He's credited too much for the wins, but...hes still great.


Theres two things I don't like about him...(1) Every time he messes up, he always blames someone else...you can see him on the field yelling at everyone when theres an imcomplete pass. (2) The ****ing fanboys are so annoying. THey wanna have sex with him. ANd this alone is enough to make me hate the guy, and hate the team even more. I mean, I didnt hate brady, I just hated the pats, after i heard the fanboys share their opinions (tom "jesus" brady, or brady > manning, or brady is my god) I totally hated him.

BennyVW
01-14-2006, 03:01 PM
Tom Brady is a good QB and plays great within the system in New England. But if you were to put him into the system, for example, where Manning is, or Favre, Linehan's system, or Marino's (when he played) how well would he do? I don't think Brady fits into the throw it downfield style of offense. Of course any QB will hit the long ball when the short stuff is successful and the running game is working. But to throw downfield alot and hit on a high percentage and be successful is another story. I don't think Brady would fit into that style. He couldn't replace Manning in Manning's offense. But Manning would do well in Brady's. So who is the better QB skill-wise between these two? Manning is. Who is the better leader and shows more confidence and poise? Probably Brady.
Brady couldn't have played in Marino's spot in the 80's. He just doesn't have the arm to do it, IMO. But again, Marino would have been succesful in any offense because he had the arm and accuracy to make ANY throw. The same goes for Elway.
SO I guess it really depends on what type of offense I was going to run. A short, quick pass offense with an occasional long ball off of play action or after pulling the safeties up with the short stuff, it would be easy to choose Brady. If it were a verticle passing offense with alot of deep outs, deep posts, fly routes, seam passes, etc., I would want the stronger-armed QB.


As accurate as ive heard...