PDA

View Full Version : A QB in the draft question;



fishypete
01-14-2006, 11:38 PM
In modern history....has there ever been a Quarterback taken in the first round that came from a losing program? Never mind one that hasn't won in over three years.

O.K. all you draftniks....and football junkies....get to work...and have some fun.

GCD960
01-14-2006, 11:41 PM
beg

fishypete
01-14-2006, 11:42 PM
beg

beg?

GCD960
01-14-2006, 11:43 PM
yeah, beg for some cutler ammo

fishypete
01-14-2006, 11:45 PM
yeah, beg for some cutler ammo

Doesn't answer the question.

sports24/7
01-15-2006, 01:04 AM
Dante Culpepper off the top of my head. But there have been plenty of QBs from small programs who would have never won close to as many as Cutler won in the SEC.

sports24/7
01-15-2006, 01:13 AM
Eli Manning, J.P. Losman, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Couch, Steve McNair, and more. But like I said, The program doesnt matter. All of the MAC QBs would have had a horrible record had their teams played in the SEC. Talent is talent, a player shouldn't be thought of any less because he didn't have talent around him.

SMadison29
01-15-2006, 01:37 AM
Dante Culpepper off the top of my head. But there have been plenty of QBs from small programs who would have never won close to as many as Cutler won in the SEC.

UCF was 9-2 during Daunte Culpepper's senior year.


Eli Manning, J.P. Losman, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Couch, Steve McNair, and more. But like I said, The program doesnt matter. All of the MAC QBs would have had a horrible record had their teams played in the SEC. Talent is talent, a player shouldn't be thought of any less because he didn't have talent around him.

Eli Manning was 10-3 his senior year.

JP Losman's senior year at Tulane they were 5-7, they weren't really that bad but injuries decimated that team.

Patrick Ramsey was 3-9 his senior year at Tulane.

Tim Couch was 7-5 his senior year.

Danny
01-15-2006, 02:27 AM
John Elway wasn't the biggest winner in college if I'm not mistaking.

Ozzy rules!!

Motion
01-15-2006, 02:35 AM
Would it change your opinion of him? Would anything at this point?

Danny
01-15-2006, 02:40 AM
Would it change your opinion of him? Would anything at this point?
who are you asking? and who are you asking about? Do I think different about Elway? I admit that back in 83 I didn't want him...I actually wanted Kelly(canes)and then Marino and Elway was a distant 3rd.If you're asking about Cutler, I don't care about the record....I'd like to see us take him.

Ozzy rules!!

dlockz
01-15-2006, 02:41 AM
David Klinger took 6th had a 5-7 college record his senior year.

Jaj
01-15-2006, 02:49 AM
Dumb debate, I suppose Ken Dorsey is an all-star in some people's books. This to me is like saying Terry Bradshaw is better than Marino because of his rings, or that Tim Duncan is better than Karl Malone(even though Malone beat the crap out of Duncan at 40 years old).

Motion
01-15-2006, 02:54 AM
who are you asking? and who are you asking about? Do I think different about Elway? I admit that back in 83 I didn't want him...I actually wanted Kelly(canes)and then Marino and Elway was a distant 3rd.If you're asking about Cutler, I don't care about the record....I'd like to see us take him.

Ozzy rules!!

Sorry, that was directed at Fishy and his crusade against Cutler.



Dumb debate, I suppose Ken Dorsey is an all-star in some people's books. This to me is like saying Terry Bradshaw is better than Marino because of his rings, or that Tim Duncan is better than Karl Malone(even though Malone beat the crap out of Duncan at 40 years old).

Exactly, Fishy needs to realize football is a team sport and one player no matter how good they are, can win games by themselves.

ckparrothead
01-15-2006, 03:36 AM
It's a decent question. Cutler went 5-6 his senior year. I just know where Pete is going with this, and that is the only reason I'm skeptical of the thread. But, I'll bite.

Here's a good example for you Pete. A certain QB we all know. Went 5-6 his senior year in college (same as Cutler), was a number one overall pick. Some say he was the best QB ever to play in the NFL.

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_43_John_Elway.htm


He never went to a bowl game and lost more college games than he won. He didn't win a Heisman Trophy and wasn't within 75 miles of a national championship. So on our list of players where we put the highest emphasis on winning, especially for quarterbacks, how did John Elway make the list over other amazing quarterbacks and how did he get up on the list so high?

He was a superstar of the highest magnitude, even in college.

As the son of a football coach, he combined the football smarts instilled by his father and otherworld athletic ability on the gridiron. On the baseball diamond he was also a high school legend and could've gone anywhere on a baseball scholarship alone. His father, Jack, was the head coach at San Jose State, but when it was time for his son to choose a school, the high-school legend chose Stanford.

...and of course that quarterback was John Elway. So, there goes THAT theory, eh Pete?

So far we've got Losman (5-7) and Ramsey (3-9) confirmed...I guess Klingler (5-7) too. And, of course Elway (5-6). So, from them I think we can fairly discern that you don't have to have a winning record in your senior year to end up in the first round.

Also, Brett Favre was 6-6 in 1989, but turned it around a bit in 1990 going 8-4.

Danny
01-15-2006, 11:08 AM
It's a decent question. Cutler went 5-6 his senior year. I just know where Pete is going with this, and that is the only reason I'm skeptical of the thread. But, I'll bite.

Here's a good example for you Pete. A certain QB we all know. Went 5-6 his senior year in college (same as Cutler), was a number one overall pick. Some say he was the best QB ever to play in the NFL.

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_43_John_Elway.htm



...and of course that quarterback was John Elway. So, there goes THAT theory, eh Pete?

So far we've got Losman (5-7) and Ramsey (3-9) confirmed...I guess Klingler (5-7) too. And, of course Elway (5-6). So, from them I think we can fairly discern that you don't have to have a winning record in your senior year to end up in the first round.

Also, Brett Favre was 6-6 in 1989, but turned it around a bit in 1990 going 8-4.
Honestly, I admit that I was skeptical of Elway but not only cos of his record which it shouldn't have matter to me, but I didn't like the fact that he wanted to go to a team of his choice.I remember Bradshaw being very upset at the time and he said something like if Elway is so good then go to the colts and make them good but he came across like a little spoiled brat by wanting to go to a team in the west coast only so I wanted Kelly and if not Marino but I thought they were both gonna be gone by our pick and we all know what happen.

Ozzy rules!!

fishypete
01-15-2006, 12:59 PM
Dumb debate, I suppose Ken Dorsey is an all-star in some people's books. This to me is like saying Terry Bradshaw is better than Marino because of his rings, or that Tim Duncan is better than Karl Malone(even though Malone beat the crap out of Duncan at 40 years old).

It's not a debate....it's a question. And like all questions it should have an answer one way or the other.

fishypete
01-15-2006, 01:09 PM
It's a decent question. Cutler went 5-6 his senior year. I just know where Pete is going with this, and that is the only reason I'm skeptical of the thread. But, I'll bite.

Here's a good example for you Pete. A certain QB we all know. Went 5-6 his senior year in college (same as Cutler), was a number one overall pick. Some say he was the best QB ever to play in the NFL.

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_43_John_Elway.htm



...and of course that quarterback was John Elway. So, there goes THAT theory, eh Pete?

So far we've got Losman (5-7) and Ramsey (3-9) confirmed...I guess Klingler (5-7) too. And, of course Elway (5-6). So, from them I think we can fairly discern that you don't have to have a winning record in your senior year to end up in the first round.

Also, Brett Favre was 6-6 in 1989, but turned it around a bit in 1990 going 8-4.

CK....Thanks for answering the questions....of course in a way it had to do with Cutler, it also had to do with the past history of the NFL draft.
If I had known the answer to the question myself and I was just trying to diss Cutler...as some may think...it would be stupid on my part to even ask the question...now wouldn't it?

Yes...it seems that some QB's have been drafted that had losing records. I'm not going to dispute anything written...it would take too much time...the question will make people think and that was it's purpose. I'll say this...I'll bet none of them ever came from schools that couldn't beat better teams they played against and none came from schools that didn't have at least one winning season out of three years....something also to think about....and Favre was a second round draft pick CK and reading that story CK...Elway did beat a team better than his....didn't he? So the part of the "theory" that a losing QB that was drafted in the first round....playing on a bad team could still beat a winning team still holds true....even with Elway. Thats the part that still keeps Cutler from being a true first round pick in my honest opinion but I felt that way about Losman also...as Keith can attest to. I see Losman and Cutler as in very similiar situations.

fishypete
01-15-2006, 01:31 PM
Honestly, I admit that I was skeptical of Elway but not only cos of his record which it shouldn't have matter to me, but I didn't like the fact that he wanted to go to a team of his choice.I remember Bradshaw being very upset at the time and he said something like if Elway is so good then go to the colts and make them good but he came across like a little spoiled brat by wanting to go to a team in the west coast only so I wanted Kelly and if not Marino but I thought they were both gonna be gone by our pick and we all know what happen.

Ozzy rules!!

I believe alot of us felt that way about Elway....and now Manning.

ckparrothead
01-15-2006, 03:58 PM
CK....Thanks for answering the questions....of course in a way it had to do with Cutler, it also had to do with the past history of the NFL draft.
If I had known the answer to the question myself and I was just trying to diss Cutler...as some may think...it would be stupid on my part to even ask the question...now wouldn't it?

Yes...it seems that some QB's have been drafted that had losing records. I'm not going to dispute anything written...it would take too much time...the question will make people think and that was it's purpose. I'll say this...I'll bet none of them ever came from schools that couldn't beat better teams they played against and none came from schools that didn't have at least one winning season out of three years....something also to think about....and Favre was a second round draft pick CK and reading that story CK...Elway did beat a team better than his....didn't he? So the part of the "theory" that a losing QB that was drafted in the first round....playing on a bad team could still beat a winning team still holds true....even with Elway. Thats the part that still keeps Cutler from being a true first round pick in my honest opinion but I felt that way about Losman also...as Keith can attest to. I see Losman and Cutler as in very similiar situations.

That is REALLY manipulating the story pete. Here we've found a situation that almost perfectly mirrors the Elway situation, and you're manipulating the details to make it sound different. Being a highly rated QB on a losing team takes special circumstances. You have to be on a team that plays against competition that is clearly better than your current team. There aren't a whole lot of situations like that. Stanford is a good parallel to Vandy's situation. They are in the tough Pac-10, yet Stanford is more of an academic school with not much commitment given to the athletics. Vandy is the same way, SEC school, but more of an academic institution with not much mind paid to athletics. Both have a history of losing within the division. As the article pointed out, Elway lost more games than he won. The only tough opponent he beat was that #1 ranked team, and similarly, Cutler brought Vandy to the brink of victory against a MUCH better Florida team, and let me tell you from having watched it, they lost the game because of a BULLSH!T excessive celebration call. Not even Florida fans could bring themselves to call that call legit. You say Vandy didn't beat anyone better than them, and I say Tennessee was most definitely better than them. Heck, Richmond was probably a better team than them, and they did have a winning record to back it up. I also point out that Vandy should have beaten UF, but for the bullsh!t call at the end of the game.

But look at the tale of the tape. Elway had a cannon arm and was a heck of an athlete. That's exactly the same as Cutler's profile. Cutler has been voted the best QB in the SEC by SEC coaches twice in a row, and you think you know what you are talking about better than them?

The theory is not in tact Pete, Elway blows it out of the water. And if he is the exception to the rule, oh, what an exception! That exception paves the way for other exceptions like a bulldozer through a field of palmetto.

fishypete
01-15-2006, 06:23 PM
That is REALLY manipulating the story pete. Here we've found a situation that almost perfectly mirrors the Elway situation, and you're manipulating the details to make it sound different. Being a highly rated QB on a losing team takes special circumstances. You have to be on a team that plays against competition that is clearly better than your current team. There aren't a whole lot of situations like that. Stanford is a good parallel to Vandy's situation. They are in the tough Pac-10, yet Stanford is more of an academic school with not much commitment given to the athletics. Vandy is the same way, SEC school, but more of an academic institution with not much mind paid to athletics. Both have a history of losing within the division. As the article pointed out, Elway lost more games than he won. The only tough opponent he beat was that #1 ranked team, and similarly, Cutler brought Vandy to the brink of victory against a MUCH better Florida team, and let me tell you from having watched it, they lost the game because of a BULLSH!T excessive celebration call. Not even Florida fans could bring themselves to call that call legit. You say Vandy didn't beat anyone better than them, and I say Tennessee was most definitely better than them. Heck, Richmond was probably a better team than them, and they did have a winning record to back it up. I also point out that Vandy should have beaten UF, but for the bullsh!t call at the end of the game.

But look at the tale of the tape. Elway had a cannon arm and was a heck of an athlete. That's exactly the same as Cutler's profile. Cutler has been voted the best QB in the SEC by SEC coaches twice in a row, and you think you know what you are talking about better than them?

The theory is not in tact Pete, Elway blows it out of the water. And if he is the exception to the rule, oh, what an exception! That exception paves the way for other exceptions like a bulldozer through a field of palmetto.

CK...Richmond? Yuck....Elway beat a team playing for the conference championship....Richmond? CK...Not to further this...but best SEC QB...WOW!

Your a smart person CK....No doubt about that...but when was the last time the SEC had a QB....other than Manning....and he couldn't win the big games either....do much? Greene was a great SEC QB....where did he get drafted...and I think we have to agree that Greene did far more as a QB than Cutler has. To think this is all about a draft spot....just makes this more insane. Do you really believe that Cutler IS and deserves to be a first round QB? Thats the question that all the GM's in the NFL will have to answer.

PhinBeck
01-15-2006, 06:42 PM
CK...Richmond? Yuck....Elway beat a team playing for the conference championship....Richmond? CK...Not to further this...but best SEC QB...WOW!

Your a smart person CK....No doubt about that...but when was the last time the SEC had a QB....other than Manning....and he couldn't win the big games either....do much? Greene was a great SEC QB....where did he get drafted...and I think we have to agree that Greene did far more as a QB than Cutler has. To think this is all about a draft spot....just makes this more insane. Do you really believe that Cutler IS and deserves to be a first round QB? Thats the question that all the GM's in the NFL will have to answer.


You make me laugh Fishy, Cutler isnt a 1st rd qb because Vandy sucks? Reaching hard. Yes records come into play and all that. But it is used to measure a qb ability to raise his team up. A qb like leinart, how much did he carry USC? With all that talent around him, it isnt a suprise to me how well he did in college. Young? Not quite as good as leinart supporting cast but it was definitely like comparing a Hummer vs Cutlers Geo metro in offroad competition when comparing Young and Cutkers supporting cast.

I love the description of Cutler on one site, GBN I believe. All the physical tools with that something special and Favres mentality. I love the poise and confidence the kid shows, the drive and determination. Many scouts are now saying that if Cutler played at USC or Texas we could have been talking about him as the top pick.

unifiedtheory
01-15-2006, 06:43 PM
You astound me Pete.

CK took your arguement, turned it around on it's head and you are still unconvinced.

I have learned, especcially today (in another thread about the bad calls in the Colts-Steelers game), that some people, no matter what the evidence shows, are too stubborn to admit that they could be wrong.

fishypete
01-15-2006, 06:48 PM
You astound me Pete.

CK took your arguement, turned it around on it's head and you are still unconvinced.

I have learned, especcially today (in another thread about the bad calls in the Colts-Steelers game), that some people, no matter what the evidence shows, are too stubborn to admit that they could be wrong.

You know I feel the same way....lets see what the future brings....then we can say who is right or wrong. Everyone thought Rodgers was a top 3 draft pick...until he dropped like a rock...if not for G.B....perhaps Rodgers would have been a 2nd round pick....it's early....wait and see.

BigDogsHunt
01-15-2006, 07:19 PM
You know I feel the same way....lets see what the future brings....then we can say who is right or wrong. Everyone thought Rodgers was a top 3 draft pick...until he dropped like a rock...if not for G.B....perhaps Rodgers would have been a 2nd round pick....it's early....wait and see.

Fishy, still asking for the future to bail you out of a present predicament, tsk, tsk...sad, very sad. :sidelol:

dolfan22
01-15-2006, 10:01 PM
You astound me Pete.

CK took your arguement, turned it around on it's head and you are still unconvinced.

I have learned, especcially today (in another thread about the bad calls in the Colts-Steelers game), that some people, no matter what the evidence shows, are too stubborn to admit that they could be wrong.


The self named "draft guru" here who has been awfully wrong many times over the years , yes he has been right and is adept at information gathering , but as he is prone to mention , " I am always right".... like all things , information is no different , buyer beware...

Love the insightful , well thought postings of the realistic informed fans ...

fishypete
01-16-2006, 03:37 AM
Fishy, still asking for the future to bail you out of a present predicament, tsk, tsk...sad, very sad. :sidelol:


The future may bail out alot more than me SR66....and if the past is any barometer....you should know that.

PhinBeck
01-16-2006, 11:12 AM
The future may bail out alot more than me SR66....and if the past is any barometer....you should know that.


Fishy, I will say that I disagree w/ many of your opinions. I do say that you must have conviction in your opinions as you defend them knowledgeably. But you appear to throw some stones while living in a glass house. I am assuming you are refering to KB when referring to the draft guru? Has he been wrong? Yeah, so has Mel Kiper, Scouts inc., ourlads, and all others that prognosticate the draft. The diff is he usually is on par with the thinking of everyone else. Yes KB was high on the qbs last year, Smith went #1 overrall, Rogers slipped, but I remember KB saying that if Rogers fell out of teh top 7 to 10 he could fall to the bottom. Players do fall like that even tho the talent is there for a much higher pick, simply the teams drafting in those positions do not need that player as they have their franchise player or they believe they do. Also it isnt an exact science, unless you are in all teams warrooms, you cant posiibly know what direction they are taking. I would bet money if Ariz was to do it over again, they would take Rogers.

Fact is Fishy, you dont like Cutler, which is fine, that is your opinion and is as valid as those who like him, he isnt a guarentee either way. But you arent going to prove you are right with this type of thread. You have no basis in fact that you are right. Nor do I. I have learned that just because you can point to certain skill sets, demeanor, attitudes, etc.. it doesnt prove anything. Just like the record of the team he played for doesnt prove the abilities of that player on the next level. Many examples have been given. You can also make examples of qbs from winning programs that have failed on the next level. That is due to teh qb being the hardest to predict.

My point is, knowing it is not an exact science, I look at the physical skills, the poise, the presence, the demeanor exhibited, the mental intelligence and toughness and see Cutler possesses the skills there. To me, he being able to produce while remaining poised and focused in the environment he was in is a plus. He never let the frustrations of playing for a god awful football team detract him, he never let it get into his head, he always played hard, fought hard, got him close to beating a very good bowl team, competed well against others, made solid decisions and earned the respect of the opponents he faced and the coaches scouts and others who believe he performed very well in the position he was in. No he isnt a guarentee, but neither is Young or leinart. All have weaknesses, but do those weaknesses say more about the player or the supporting cast? If all you can come up with a weakness for Cutler is his college teams record? then I want him even more. I question Leinarts arm, which is exclusive to the player, not the team. It also doesnt mean Leinart wont be successful, I believ he will, but I dont feel he will have the same type of success on the NFL level that he did at USC, defenses are too good and too fast. That is my opinion, many disagree with me, I wont dispute their opinions. Young has mechanics quetions, same as Rivers. System questions as well. Doesnt mean he wont succeed either, just has questions related to his personal abilities translated to the next level. So far I hevent heard any weakness relating to Cutler that deals with personal flaws where it translates to the NFL. If that is teh case, I am on the Cutler bandwagon.

ckparrothead
01-16-2006, 11:52 AM
Fishy, I will say that I disagree w/ many of your opinions. I do say that you must have conviction in your opinions as you defend them knowledgeably. But you appear to throw some stones while living in a glass house. I am assuming you are refering to KB when referring to the draft guru? .

In fishy's defense, Dolfan22 was the one that wrote an inflammatory post about a "self-proclaimed draft guru" and it appears he may have been talking about me.

Jnaledu3
01-16-2006, 12:36 PM
What Fishy neglects to realize is that NFL scouts dont evaluate players based on their overall team record. Vandy's record effects Cutler the same way the Oklahomas record effected Jason White's draft status. It doesnt matter.

Mueller likes to draft QBs in the later rounds anyway, right Pete?

But we wouldnt even be having this conversation had the Fins listened to you; because with Jim Bates as HC, Spielman as GM, and Feeley as the QB- we would be getting ready for next weekends AFC championship game.

So keep on spreading that BS Pete, because as long as the Dolphins do the opposite of what you say, I know we are going in the right direction.

fishypete
01-16-2006, 01:25 PM
Fishy, I will say that I disagree w/ many of your opinions. I do say that you must have conviction in your opinions as you defend them knowledgeably. But you appear to throw some stones while living in a glass house. I am assuming you are refering to KB when referring to the draft guru? Has he been wrong? Yeah, so has Mel Kiper, Scouts inc., ourlads, and all others that prognosticate the draft. The diff is he usually is on par with the thinking of everyone else. Yes KB was high on the qbs last year, Smith went #1 overrall, Rogers slipped, but I remember KB saying that if Rogers fell out of teh top 7 to 10 he could fall to the bottom. Players do fall like that even tho the talent is there for a much higher pick, simply the teams drafting in those positions do not need that player as they have their franchise player or they believe they do. Also it isnt an exact science, unless you are in all teams warrooms, you cant posiibly know what direction they are taking. I would bet money if Ariz was to do it over again, they would take Rogers.

Fact is Fishy, you dont like Cutler, which is fine, that is your opinion and is as valid as those who like him, he isnt a guarentee either way. But you arent going to prove you are right with this type of thread. You have no basis in fact that you are right. Nor do I. I have learned that just because you can point to certain skill sets, demeanor, attitudes, etc.. it doesnt prove anything. Just like the record of the team he played for doesnt prove the abilities of that player on the next level. Many examples have been given. You can also make examples of qbs from winning programs that have failed on the next level. That is due to teh qb being the hardest to predict.

My point is, knowing it is not an exact science, I look at the physical skills, the poise, the presence, the demeanor exhibited, the mental intelligence and toughness and see Cutler possesses the skills there. To me, he being able to produce while remaining poised and focused in the environment he was in is a plus. He never let the frustrations of playing for a god awful football team detract him, he never let it get into his head, he always played hard, fought hard, got him close to beating a very good bowl team, competed well against others, made solid decisions and earned the respect of the opponents he faced and the coaches scouts and others who believe he performed very well in the position he was in. No he isnt a guarentee, but neither is Young or leinart. All have weaknesses, but do those weaknesses say more about the player or the supporting cast? If all you can come up with a weakness for Cutler is his college teams record? then I want him even more. I question Leinarts arm, which is exclusive to the player, not the team. It also doesnt mean Leinart wont be successful, I believ he will, but I dont feel he will have the same type of success on the NFL level that he did at USC, defenses are too good and too fast. That is my opinion, many disagree with me, I wont dispute their opinions. Young has mechanics quetions, same as Rivers. System questions as well. Doesnt mean he wont succeed either, just has questions related to his personal abilities translated to the next level. So far I hevent heard any weakness relating to Cutler that deals with personal flaws where it translates to the NFL. If that is teh case, I am on the Cutler bandwagon.

Sorry....I didn't mention any thing about Draft Guru's...

fishypete
01-16-2006, 01:29 PM
What Fishy neglects to realize is that NFL scouts dont evaluate players based on their overall team record. Vandy's record effects Cutler the same way the Oklahomas record effected Jason White's draft status. It doesnt matter.

Mueller likes to draft QBs in the later rounds anyway, right Pete?

But we wouldnt even be having this conversation had the Fins listened to you; because with Jim Bates as HC, Spielman as GM, and Feeley as the QB- we would be getting ready for next weekends AFC championship game.

So keep on spreading that BS Pete, because as long as the Dolphins do the opposite of what you say, I know we are going in the right direction.

Records do matter...regardless of what other opinion's may think....if it didn't matter....the top ten players would all come from losing schools...instead of winning programs. By the way....they don't evaluate players just by what they do in the senior bowl either. Thats why they play the games....thats why they watch these kids all thru high school and college.

PhinBeck
01-16-2006, 01:56 PM
Records do matter...regardless of what other opinion's may think....if it didn't matter....the top ten players would all come from losing schools...instead of winning programs. By the way....they don't evaluate players just by what they do in the senior bowl either. Thats why they play the games....thats why they watch these kids all thru high school and college.

You dont get it, you are so one tracked in your thinking. Why does anyone even bother having a discussion with you? You believe that we should all just sit and be mesmerized by your self proclaimed brilliance :shakeno:

What were you referring to with your response to me? You made a reference the board draft guru being wrong on many things, I pointed out the nationally recognized gurus are wrong with some picks every year, it isnt an exact science. Judging from your 1 sentence response i gather you cant dispute anything I said.

I respect your opinion and your right to it, what I dont respect is your judgemental attitude towards anyone who posts a response rebuffing your opinion. As if that automatically dismisses their opinion as nonconsequential. When in fact it is you who have posted nothing to refute what was posted in deference to your original theory. Which is a one tracked narrow minded position IMO.

As far as this reponse goes, you portray your response as fact while ignoring all the actual facts brought against your position. Players are not drafted based solely on their teams record. Sorry YOU are wrong and has been proven numerous times so I am not rehashing those points as it is useless you will ignore them as if it was never pointed out. Had McNair played above 1AA with Alcorn state, his record wopuld have stunk, would that negate him as an NFL player? Maybe if Vandy went to 1AA and had a 10-1 record he would be NFL worthy? Scouts will look at how the player performed in that situation while playing for a losing team, did he perform well despite the team around him? Did he excel at his position? Did he show the intangibles they look for? If he does, despite the record, he will be graded highly as Cutler is. You dont like it? So what?