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Ray Finkle
01-22-2006, 02:29 AM
According to the Boston Herald:

The Red Sox are expected to trade Andy Marte and Guillermo Mota for Coco Crisp and sign ex-Marlin Alex Gonzalez to play shortstop. The Indians will send Coco Crisp to the Red Sox for Andy Marte and Guillermo Mota after completing a deal with the Phillies that will net them Jason Michaels.

Well I guess this would solve the Red Sox leadoff/CF problem. I'm a big fan of Crisp however I'm not sure if I'm in love with the deal. Andy Marte is a top 10 prospect and I like Mota in the Sox pen a lot. I guess you have to make the trade if you're the Red Sox. Crisp is 26 years old and has speed and pop in the bat.

Anyway if this is true welcome to Boston Coco (hopefully Manny doesn't confuse you with the breakfast food or think Captain Crunch is the next SS)

FaninPatsyLand
01-22-2006, 02:33 AM
I hate to lose Marte, but we aren't exactly mortaging the future by bringing in Coco Crisp, who's still relatively young.

I like the idea of having Coco in Centerfield and Gonzalez playing Shortstop for this team. If it goes down, this team is going to have quality depth and a strong lineup and staff.

It's gonna be an exciting year..

Samphin
01-22-2006, 02:39 AM
I still love the outfield of the Indians that contained both Coco Crisp AND Milton Bradley at one point in time.

SMadison29
01-22-2006, 03:14 AM
That's a very bad trade for the Red Sox. Epstein better hurry up & put a stop to that.

FaninPatsyLand
01-22-2006, 03:20 AM
That's a very bad trade for the Red Sox. Epstein better hurry up & put a stop to that.

I disagree, but I'm curious as to why you think that? Marte is going to be very good, but if you look at this trade it's basically Renteria, Mota and some cash for Coco Crisp. Renteria was complete and utter garbage, and while Mota adds depth to the pen, he's being somewhat overrated.

If we don't make this trade, who do you propose we start in Centerfield? Adam Stern? A move must be made, and I love the idea of having Crisp in Boston.. it's another quality addition to a deep club.

And lets not forget to factor in the age of Coco. He's only 26, and the club holds the rights to him for a couple of more years at a very reasonable rate before entering Free Agency. If its necessary, I prefer the idea of trading Marte for a guy the club controls, instead of a one year fill like Julio Lugo.

UCFinfan86
01-22-2006, 12:11 PM
According to the Herald report, the Indians would spur the Crisp deal by sending left-hander Arthur Rhodes or right-hander Rafael Betancourt to the Phillies for outfielder Jason Michaels or by acquiring free agent Jeff DaVanon.

I dont LOVE the trade, but i dont dislike the trade. It seemed inevitable that we were going to trade Marte for either a SS or CF. Crisp is a good young player, and atleast he proven something, Marte still hasn't proven anything yet. Also The sox get a prospect from the deal so they might get a good/decent on in return.

RWhitney014
01-22-2006, 12:14 PM
Mota stinks. He refuses to throw a fastball on the inside half of the plate, and until he stops toying with that changeup and uses it once or twice in an AB rather than 4 or 5 times, he won't be effective again. Moving him is a great idea.

Crisp is a very good player with a lot of upside. The Indians have to love that they can land Marte. It's a pretty good deal for both sides.

Possibly another winner out of this deal is Florida. It's no secret that we want Joey Gathright or Jeremy Reed, and it's no secret that there have been deals on the table for each of them. The Red Sox were the biggest competition to both deals because they needed a CF (and a SS) so badly. So unless Cleveland unimaginably forwards Marte and Sowers or that Fausto guy onto Seattle for Reed, it looks like, for now, the Marlins are the only suitors for them. And Florida really needs a CF and really needs a leadoff hitter something awful.

MikeO
01-22-2006, 12:28 PM
Crisp is the best they are gonna get to play CF for this year at this point in time.

Gonzalez at SS.......ouch! He stinks!

I know this is unrealistic, but if I were....eh,ehh, ehh....I wouldn't trade Marte and I would use this year as a Rebuilding year!!!

Come June or July they could get Tori Hunter for about .50 on the dollar. Why not just wait for that and build long-term! Unrealistic I know, but that's what I would do.

GreenMonster
01-22-2006, 12:49 PM
Crisp is the best they are gonna get to play CF for this year at this point in time.

Gonzalez at SS.......ouch! He stinks!

I know this is unrealistic, but if I were....eh,ehh, ehh....I wouldn't trade Marte and I would use this year as a Rebuilding year!!!

Come June or July they could get Tori Hunter for about .50 on the dollar. Why not just wait for that and build long-term! Unrealistic I know, but that's what I would do.

You must think we are gonna stink this year. Maybe I am wrong but I think a lineup of Crisp, Nixon, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek, Lowell, Youk, Pedoria, Gonz. still looks pretty good to me.. Sure we are not the team we had the last 2 years but I think our pitching is still solid and with Manny and Ortiz we will score runs.

RWhitney014
01-22-2006, 12:59 PM
You must think we are gonna stink this year. Maybe I am wrong but I think a lineup of Crisp, Nixon, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek, Lowell, Youk, Pedoria, Gonz. still looks pretty good to me.. Sure we are not the team we had the last 2 years but I think our pitching is still solid and with Manny and Ortiz we will score runs.

I love Sea Bass' defense, but you guys are going to go crazy when he starts swinging away. He swung away in '04 and hit 23 homers but hit .230. Last year he tried to get on base more and hit 6 homers and hit .260. With that wall, he's gonna try to swing away. And he'll chase a lot.

GreenMonster
01-22-2006, 01:03 PM
2005

Coco Crisp - .300, 16 HR, 69 RBI, 86 R, 15 SB, .345 OBP

J. Damon - .316, 10 HR, 75 RBI, 117R, 18SB, .366 OBP

For the money and age, I will take Coco Crisp the next 4 years...

Ray Finkle
01-22-2006, 01:50 PM
By getting Crisp the Sox get a line off guy and a CFer. I'd honestly rather have Crisp than Hunter, Reed, Gatheright, Damon, Lugo.

The only guys I'd rather have over Crisp are Ichiro, Carl Crawford, Vernon Wells, and Grady Sizemore but those guys aren't going anywhere.

With the signing of Tarveras earlier, you knew that Mota was going to be traded somewhere. I wish there was a way to keep Marte and still land Crisp but I doubt there's a way. I'm upset about giving up Marte but if it lands us Crisp I'm all for it.

If the Sox sign Gonzalez to a 1 year deal then fine but I'm not too sure signing him long term is the answer.

Sox line up:
Crisp
Loretta
Ortiz
Manny
Lowell
Varitek
Nixon
Youkilis/Snow
Tony G/Dustin Pedroia/Gonzalez

That's a pretty good line up.

Ray Finkle
01-22-2006, 02:11 PM
Crisp is the best they are gonna get to play CF for this year at this point in time.

Gonzalez at SS.......ouch! He stinks!

I know this is unrealistic, but if I were....eh,ehh, ehh....I wouldn't trade Marte and I would use this year as a Rebuilding year!!!

Come June or July they could get Tori Hunter for about .50 on the dollar. Why not just wait for that and build long-term! Unrealistic I know, but that's what I would do.

You're assuming that Hunter will be available come July. Also Hunter is coming off of major ankle/leg surgery who knows how good he's going to be. Plus Hunter isn't a great hitter and isn't a lead off hitter. He's going to be getting 15 million in 2007 I believe (his option).

Getting Crisp is building for the long term he's 26 years old. He's 4 years YOUNGER than Hunter. Plus we control Crisp until 2009 I believe.

Gonzalez is a good defensive SS but then again so was Renteria. I'd rather have Pedroia/Cora/Loretta/Tony G. split time at SS. Or if the Sox are going to sign Gonzalez to at least a 3 year deal why not go out and get OC. He's apparently available for a bag of balls and everyone knows he can handle the pressure of playing in Boston.

As for rebuilding year? :lol:

I think you're going to be shocked at just how good the Red Sox are going to be especially if Schilling and Beckett make 30 starts each and Foulke is back to 2004 form. The Sox have a deep pen and deep rotation. IF the Sox get Crisp it's going to be funny to see all the experts change their minds and say who's going to be the new favorite of the AL East.

RWhitney014
01-22-2006, 02:29 PM
Another Marte scenario I could see would be Cleveland sending him to TB for Huff. Cleveland has liked Huff for a long time, and we all know the Rays want Marte.

Samphin
01-22-2006, 03:23 PM
Another Marte scenario I could see would be Cleveland sending him to TB for Huff. Cleveland has liked Huff for a long time, and we all know the Rays want Marte.


You stay away from Huff!!!! I have wanted him in Dodger Blue for way too long to lose him to the Red Sox Nation.

RWhitney014
01-22-2006, 04:08 PM
You stay away from Huff!!!! I have wanted him in Dodger Blue for way too long to lose him to the Red Sox Nation.

I meant Cleveland would acquire Marte and forward him to Tampa. But he's not going to be in LA, at least not this year.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 12:22 AM
More news on the deal, per rotoworld:

According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Paul Hoynes, the Indians will acquire Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota and a minor league pitcher from the Red Sox for Coco Crisp and two low-level prospects. Hoynes indicates that a physical for Mota, scheduled for early in the week, is the only hurdle left. If the deal is finalized, the Indians would likely then trade Mota, Arthur Rhodes or David Riske to the Phillies for Jason Michaels.

FaninPatsyLand
01-23-2006, 12:03 PM
Well Whit, if the above is true, it looks like Mota will be back in the division. I'm sure you are looking forward to seeing him in an opposing uniform 19 times a year. :lol:

FaninPatsyLand
01-23-2006, 12:21 PM
Apparently the deal is done, but there's going to be more players involved in this deal then what was once thought. Reading the Globe this morning, beat writer for the Sox Chris Snow had an article of the impending transaction.


The Red Sox, according to a source with knowledge of the deal, have reached agreement in principle with the Indians on a complex six-player deal centered upon 26-year-old Coco Crisp that also will bring to town a quality setup man in 28-year-old David Riske and young catcher Josh Bard.

Boston will ship top prospect Andy Marte, reliever Guillermo Mota, and catcher Kelly Shoppach to Cleveland. The deal is contingent upon physicals. The only player in the deal with a known and recent injury issue is Mota, who missed a month last season with the Marlins because of inflammation in his throwing elbow.

This is somewhat surprising to see Kelly Shoppach being thrown into this deal. The John Flaherty signing is huge now when combined with the Shoppach and Mirabelli departures this offseason. I really like idea of Riske coming to Boston, he had very solid numbers last year and only adds another quality arm into a bullpen that has vastly improved from last year. However, I'm still curious as to why the Red Sox went out and signed Tavarez. Everyone figured that was a precursor to seeing Mota get shipped out of town, but it seems strange to see the Red Sox getting additional pen help back from Cleveland..

In any event, I'm really starting to like the look of this team....

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/23/source_sox_agree_to_crisp_deal/

EDIT: Now we have conflicting reports. Tony Massarotti of the Boston Herald reports no such inclusion of Shoppach and Riske in his deal. This should be interesting.. here is his article.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=122417

GreenMonster
01-23-2006, 12:47 PM
Wow, I love this deal.. Shoppach to me has always been a bit overrated and now we pick up Riske, who is a nice option out of the pen.. (3.10, 15BB, 48K's_). Can't wait to see some Coco Crisp in CF, ripping line drives of the monster..

FaninPatsyLand
01-23-2006, 01:04 PM
Wow, I love this deal.. Shoppach to me has always been a bit overrated and now we pick up Riske, who is a nice option out of the pen.. (3.10, 15BB, 48K's_). Can't wait to see some Coco Crisp in CF, ripping line drives of the monster..

If Riske is involved in this deal, I don't understand how anyone can not like it. Shoppach simply isn't very good, and we are obtaining another valuable asset in an already deep bullpen.

However, I'm trying to find another article that mentions the 6 player swap because the only place I have been able to find such a deal mentioned was in the Globe article I posted. I really hope its true.

GreenMonster
01-23-2006, 01:06 PM
If Riske is involved in this deal, I don't understand how anyone can not like it. Shoppach simply isn't very good, and we are obtaining another valuable asset in an already deep bullpen.

However, I'm trying to find another article that mentions the 6 player swap because the only place I have been able to find such a deal mentioned was in the Globe article I posted. I really hope its true.

They have mentioned it on ESPN radio which I am listening to right now...

FaninPatsyLand
01-23-2006, 01:10 PM
They have mentioned it on ESPN radio which I am listening to right now...

Oh, good. I was surprised that Snow and Massarotti had conflicting reports because they are both usually very good.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 01:19 PM
I don't like Shoppach going in the deal. Josh Bard stinks. Shoppach has more of an upside.

FaninPatsyLand
01-23-2006, 01:22 PM
I don't like Shoppach going in the deal. Josh Bard stinks. Shoppach has more of an upside.

Cause Shoppach looked so good during the time he was up here last year. Did he make contact in ANY of his at-bats?

If it takes Shoppach to land Riske here, I'm all for it. Shoppach is not very good.

GreenMonster
01-23-2006, 01:22 PM
I don't like Shoppach going in the deal. Josh Bard stinks. Shoppach has more of an upside.

I agree, but Riske > Mota and we knew Marte had to be in any deal for Crisp...

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 03:23 PM
Cause Shoppach looked so good during the time he was up here last year. Did he make contact in ANY of his at-bats?

If it takes Shoppach to land Riske here, I'm all for it. Shoppach is not very good.

You want to throw the guy under the bus for 15 at bats? He looked like crap in them yes however how many minor leaguers do the same thing when they come up? Even Mickey Mantle, a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest players in the history of the game, stunk when he first came up. At least give the kid more at bats before you can make judgements on him. The kid, from his minor league numbers, shows he has power and an above average glove.

I'm not saying that Shoppach is going to be a superstar but he is probably going to be better than Bard.

FaninPatsyLand
01-23-2006, 04:25 PM
I'm not saying that Shoppach is going to be a superstar but he is probably going to be better than Bard.

No one is debating that... you missed the point badly.

Riske would be a great addition to this pen, and he is clearly an upgrade over Mota. If it takes Shoppach to bring in Riske, it's well worth it. The rest of your post is garbage, no one is throwing anyone "under the bus."

I think most people agree they would throw Shoppach into this deal to come out with Riske.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 04:42 PM
No one is debating that... you missed the point badly.

Riske would be a great addition to this pen, and he is clearly an upgrade over Mota. If it takes Shoppach to bring in Riske, it's well worth it. The rest of your post is garbage, no one is throwing anyone "under the bus."

I think most people agree they would throw Shoppach into this deal to come out with Riske.

Riske and Mota's numbers are pretty much a wash. Riske has been better longer and is younger than Mota, so he would be an upgrade.

However I still don't like the idea of giving up Shoppach for Bard in the deal. John Flaherty isn't very good, I don't like the idea of him catching 30 to 35 games.

RWhitney014
01-23-2006, 06:58 PM
Well Whit, if the above is true, it looks like Mota will be back in the division. I'm sure you are looking forward to seeing him in an opposing uniform 19 times a year. :lol:

If he ends up with the Phillies and pitches like he did against the Phillies, yeah, I won't mind. :evil:

Shoppach is better (offensively, at least, don't know about defensively) and younger than Bard, but that's not the issue. Both are emergency backup AAA catchers and since Varitek is going to be the starter for at least four more years and possibly more, it really doesn't matter who the third catcher is. Both of these guys are going to be around 30 when the current deal expires, so it's not a biggie. Boston needs to draft a catcher or trade for a young one in 2 or 3 years...now it's just Cleveland looking to get a little upside from the backup C position, considering Vic Martinez is signed long-term as well. I really think they want Marte to flip him to Tampa for Huff, which is amazing that such a high-level prospect like him could get traded 3 times in one offseason.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 07:21 PM
I really think they want Marte to flip him to Tampa for Huff, which is amazing that such a high-level prospect like him could get traded 3 times in one offseason.

I'm not sure Cleveland is going to do that. Cleveland has Aaron F'N Boone signed for this year and next and then he's off the books, so they could slide Marte into the line up next year (when everyone thinks he'll be ready) and Cleveland can dump Boone off somewhere. Huff is a good hitter, but he's been declining the past few years.

Plus IF the Devil Rays trade Huff for Marte straight up I'm sure the Devil Ray fans will be very mad because apparently Marte wasn't good enough to be traded straight up for Lugo but now he's good enough to be traded away for one of the Rays best hitters? It doesn't make sense but this is Tampa Bay we're talking about, they don't run a great franchise.

PressCoverage
01-23-2006, 09:21 PM
there are some circles in the know who belive Marte will be a .255 hitter and never show enough plate discipline in the bigs, and certainly not a SS... i was excited, but then we agreed to lowell in the trade... why both?

i'm comfortable with Crisp... would have been happier with Sizemore, but this will do... my question, what kind of arm and range does he have, relative to most CF's in the majors?

GreenMonster
01-23-2006, 10:20 PM
there are some circles in the know who belive Marte will be a .255 hitter and never show enough plate discipline in the bigs, and certainly not a SS... i was excited, but then we agreed to lowell in the trade... why both?

i'm comfortable with Crisp... would have been happier with Sizemore, but this will do... my question, what kind of arm and range does he have, relative to most CF's in the majors?

He was voted by Hardball Times or something as the best defensive outfielder in the AL. He has great range and a better arm than Damon ever had. He won't be Andruw Jones in the triangle, but he will certainly help Manny and Trot out there.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 11:36 PM
there are some circles in the know who belive Marte will be a .255 hitter and never show enough plate discipline in the bigs, and certainly not a SS... i was excited, but then we agreed to lowell in the trade... why both?

i'm comfortable with Crisp... would have been happier with Sizemore, but this will do... my question, what kind of arm and range does he have, relative to most CF's in the majors?

I would have loved Sizemore too.

Word is Crisp is very fast, covers good ground and has an above average arm. From reports I read it says he's a better LFer then CFer, but then again so is Johnny Damon.

GreenMonster
01-23-2006, 11:42 PM
I would have loved Sizemore too.

Word is Crisp is very fast, covers good ground and has an above average arm. From reports I read it says he's a better LFer then CFer, but then again so is Johnny Damon.

Getting Crisp is good enough for me. Sizemore I am 100% positive is untouchable in any trade talks. He has the chance to become amazing.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2006, 11:44 PM
Getting Crisp is good enough for me. Sizemore I am 100% positive is untouchable in any trade talks. He has the chance to become amazing.

Oh I'm sure Sizemore is untouchable. I'd love to have gotten him but I'm not upset at Coco Crisp in Boston.

GreenMonster
01-23-2006, 11:51 PM
Oh I'm sure Sizemore is untouchable. I'd love to have gotten him but I'm not upset at Coco Crisp in Boston.

I am pretty sure we are gonna love this guy... First his name is Coco Crisp.. 2nd he is a great defensive outfielder with speed, and should be spraying line drives all over the gaps and taking extra bases. We may have lost a bit of leadoff ability vs. Damon but can still learn that and is entering his prime not exiting it..

saves
01-28-2006, 07:10 PM
You sox fans are going to love Coco. Definatly a fan favorite, good contact hitter with a pop too it, good outfielder and is a natural CF. Everyones pissed because they traded him. But if Marte works out and the rest of the trade turns out to be okay the Indians will probably be better in the long run, considering Sizmore is definatly the future in the outfield. I'm pretty optimistic about their chances this year, and the Sox definatly look like automatic bids at this point.

Ray Finkle
01-28-2006, 07:15 PM
You sox fans are going to love Coco. Definatly a fan favorite, good contact hitter with a pop too it, good outfielder and is a natural CF. Everyones pissed because they traded him. But if Marte works out and the rest of the trade turns out to be okay the Indians will probably be better in the long run, considering Sizmore is definatly the future in the outfield. I'm pretty optimistic about their chances this year, and the Sox definatly look like automatic bids at this point.

Thanks for your info on Crisp. As a Sox fan I'm very excited watching him in CF next year. Hopefully this trade works out for both teams.