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Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 09:24 AM
2006 Draft Class
Matt Leinart
Vince Young
Jay Cutler
Paul Pinegar
Darrell Hackney
Brodie Croyle
Omar Jacobs
Brad Smith
Bruce Gradkowski
Josh Betts
Drew Olson
Charlie Whitehurst
Reggie McNeal
Ingle Martin
Jay Davis
Macus Vick
Kellen Clemens
Bruce Eugene
Brett Basenez


2006 Free Agency
Player Type 2005 Team
Anthony Wright UFA Ravens
Charlie Batch UFA Steelers
Chris Simms RFA Buccaneers
Chris Weinke UFA Panthers
Craig Nall UFA Packers
Damon Huard UFA Chiefs
Dave Ragone RFA Texans
Doug Flutie UFA Patriots
Drew Brees UFA Chargers
Jamie Martin UFA Rams
Jeff Blake UFA Bears
Jeff Garcia UFA Lions
Jesse Palmer UFA 49ers
Jon Kitna UFA Bengals
Josh McCown UFA Cardinals
Ken Dorsey RFA 49ers
Kliff Kingsbury RFA Jets
Kurt Warner UFA Cardinals
Sage Rosenfels UFA Dolphins
Seneca Wallace RFA Seahawks
Shane Matthews UFA Bills
Shaun Hill UFA Vikings
Tim Hasselbeck UFA Giants
Todd Collins UFA Chiefs
Ty Detmer UFA
Vinny Testaverde UFA Jets

2006 Trade Possibilities
Dante Culpepper-Vikings
Philip Rivers-Chargers




Also, here's a little brainbuster for all the cutler lovers

*career #s, unless noted*

Player A: 815 completions, 1,366 attempts, 60% completion, 49 TD, 46 INT, 2414 yds/season
Player B: 710 completions, 1242 attempts, 57.1% completion, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season,
Player C: 523 completions, 811 attempts, 64.5% completion, 71 TD, 11 INT, 2,313 yds/season



You tell me who looks the best out of those 3, and no cheating by looking up the stats. Tell me, by looking at those numbers, who looks best.

EBMisfit
01-29-2006, 10:13 AM
Player A: 815 completions, 1,366 attempts, 60% completion, 49 TD, 46 INT, 2414 yds/season
Player B: 710 completions, 1242 attempts, 57.1% completion, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season,
Player C: 523 completions, 811 attempts, 64.5% completion, 71 TD, 11 INT, 2,313 yds/season
You tell me who looks the best out of those 3, and no cheating by looking up the stats. Tell me, by looking at those numbers, who looks best.
That's easy: you can't tell who looks the best out of those 3 just by looking at the numbers. Some players are a product of the system (or, at least, some players would do better in system "a" than other players, while the other players would do a better in system "b" than the first group) and/or simply have superior talent surrounding them.

finsrule84
01-29-2006, 10:32 AM
Player A Cutler
Player B Leinart
Player C Jacobs?

that's without looking up the stats. obviously Jacobs has the better numbers

Phinzman
01-29-2006, 10:32 AM
I hate multiple choice :D

flintsilver7
01-29-2006, 11:19 AM
Based purely on the stats, it would seem that C > B > A. I'm pretty sure that's Jacobs, Cutler, and Whitehurst, respectively.

There are too many other factors. Whitehurst should not be given serious consideration as an NFL quarterback while the other two should.

Nicky Napoleon
01-29-2006, 11:25 AM
B, Im pretty sure is Cutler and C is Jacobs. Im not sure who A is though.

Nicky Napoleon
01-29-2006, 11:29 AM
Based purely on the stats, it would seem that C > B > A. I'm pretty sure that's Jacobs, Cutler, and Whitehurst, respectively.

There are too many other factors. Whitehurst should not be given serious consideration as an NFL quarterback while the other two should.

See thats not necessarily true, physically hes as gifted as just about anyone. He just has yet to play with any consistancy, someone will take a shot at him if they think they can figure out his problems.

Kobe
01-29-2006, 11:38 AM
Id think C would be Drew Olson or w/e from UCLA.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 11:48 AM
A is Whitehurst
B is Cutler
C is Jacobs


It's obvious who the talent is of the three, just take a look at the stats.

Nicky Napoleon
01-29-2006, 11:52 AM
A is Whitehurst
B is Cutler
C is Jacobs


It's obvious who the talent is of the three, just take a look at the stats.


Right because in college the best stats are always going to be had by the best player...... :refuse:

stoody24
01-29-2006, 12:24 PM
very good post!!!

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 12:31 PM
Right because in college the best stats are always going to be had by the best player...... :refuse:


But this proves that all the cutler lovers cannot just downgrade jacobs to "clip-board holder" just because hes PROJECTED to be a much later pick


ANYWHO, the point of this thread is for me, and other, to analyze our options at QB.

Dphins
01-29-2006, 12:31 PM
Watched the Senior Bowl and the Practice's on the NFL Netork. With all the talk about Cutler he didn't seem to stand out to me. To me Cutler Croyle Whitehurst were the best QB's at the Senior bowl. However, you probally have to spend a first on Cutler and he didn't look superior to the other two that you wouldn't have to give up a first round pick for. Whitehurst reminds me a little of Brady doesn't have a huge arm but seems to have a feel for the game and Croyle seems to have a rocket but injuries are a concern. I wouldn't mind taking Croyle, whiterhust, or Omar Jacobs as long as it isnt' it the first round.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 12:49 PM
Alright, i'm going to grade the following players at QB, and give our chances of getting him, scale of 1-10, and my personal opinions of some of the more well-known guys.

*note-COG is affected not only by our chances, but the likeyhood that the team actually takes him. It is not solely based on just if they will be there


2006 Draft Class
Matt Leinart-Grade: A Chances of Getting(COG): 0
Leinart is a marvelous talent, but no way we get him

Vince Young-Grade: A+ COG: 0
Again, amazing talent, no chance in hell we get him

Jay Cutler-Grade: C+ COG: 5
Excessive scrambler, cannon of an arm, mobile, Bad time management, Not the type of QB miami is looking for. Mobile, yes, but needs to learn to look for recievers instead of running as soon as the pocket starts to cave.

Darrell Hackney-Grade: C- COG: 3

Brodie Croyle-Grade: C COG: 7

Omar Jacobs-Grade: B+ COG: 9
AMAZING talent, great arm, mobile, team leader, confidence. He's got a lot of talent. Needs to work on mechanics and develop as a player, but a grade A player.

Charlie Whitehurst-Grade: C COG: 2
Stats show hes not that great, but a good senior bowl will raise his stock.

Reggie McNeal-Grade: C COG: 2

Macus Vick-Grade:C+/B- COG: 6
Has an off-field issue, but if that can be taken care of, he too would be a late round steal. Plenty of Talent, more of a Qb than his brother.

Kellen Clemens-Grade:C+ COG: 4

Michael Robinson-Grade: C+ COG: 5
Fast, Athletic, strong arm. Remind you of someone? He shouldnt, Robinson should become a WR or safety, but even if he stays at QB, not a bad late round choice.



The rest will come shortly.

phinfanNY08
01-29-2006, 12:51 PM
Id think C would be Drew Olson or w/e from UCLA.

olson threw alot more than that...:eek:

DaBills4life
01-29-2006, 12:54 PM
Cutler looked like JP Losman in the pocket to me. I dont see a presence in the pocket. He didnt look comfortable. The arm is great, decent accuracy, and has the size, but I would stay away from this guy.

Missing some throws in one game isnt going to hurt him, but in my opinion, Cutler is just a prototype QB, without the intangibles.

I think the best option for you guys would be to trade the 1st for Rivers, instead of drafting a QB with your 1st.

Pocoloco
01-29-2006, 01:06 PM
Cutler looked like JP Losman in the pocket to me. I dont see a presence in the pocket. He didnt look comfortable. The arm is great, decent accuracy, and has the size, but I would stay away from this guy.

Missing some throws in one game isnt going to hurt him, but in my opinion, Cutler is just a prototype QB, without the intangibles.

I think the best option for you guys would be to trade the 1st for Rivers, instead of drafting a QB with your 1st.

Don't take the Senior Bowl as a true reflection of Cutler's future career, we were all hoping he'd have a terrible game, and he did. Now maybe we can get a shot at him. I'd go back to some college tape and evaluate his pocket presence at different stages of the game before I give up on him.

However, I do agree that Rivers will be better than Cutler (and Rivers is seasoned now, we don't have to wait two years). If we could get him for our first and Madison, I would do it. But I doubt San Diego lets him go with Brees' injury.

ABrownLamp
01-29-2006, 02:02 PM
I pity any team that chooses Vick. What a jerk

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-29-2006, 02:19 PM
stats aren't very good indicators on a player's pro potential. a guy like cutler is still somewhat young as a pure passer, and with the talent around him, it's to be expected that he wouldn't put up great numbers. he's still not even close to being fully developed yet as a quarterback. i hope we draft him, but i dont expect him to come in and light it up right away

Phins28
01-29-2006, 03:19 PM
Jay Cutler is the real deal, I love his quick release and he has a cannon for an arm.

Lazy1
01-29-2006, 04:02 PM
Alright, i'm going to grade the following players at QB, and give our chances of getting him, scale of 1-10, and my personal opinions of some of the more well-known guys.

*note-COG is affected not only by our chances, but the likeyhood that the team actually takes him. It is not solely based on just if they will be there


2006 Draft Class
Matt Leinart-Grade: A Chances of Getting(COG): 0
Leinart is a marvelous talent, but no way we get him

Vince Young-Grade: A+ COG: 0
Again, amazing talent, no chance in hell we get him

Jay Cutler-Grade: C+ COG: 5
Excessive scrambler, cannon of an arm, mobile, Bad time management, Not the type of QB miami is looking for. Mobile, yes, but needs to learn to look for recievers instead of running as soon as the pocket starts to cave.

Darrell Hackney-Grade: C- COG: 3

Brodie Croyle-Grade: C COG: 7

Omar Jacobs-Grade: B+ COG: 9
AMAZING talent, great arm, mobile, team leader, confidence. He's got a lot of talent. Needs to work on mechanics and develop as a player, but a grade A player.

Charlie Whitehurst-Grade: C COG: 2
Stats show hes not that great, but a good senior bowl will raise his stock.

Reggie McNeal-Grade: C COG: 2

Macus Vick-Grade:C+/B- COG: 6
Has an off-field issue, but if that can be taken care of, he too would be a late round steal. Plenty of Talent, more of a Qb than his brother.

Kellen Clemens-Grade:C+ COG: 4

Michael Robinson-Grade: C+ COG: 5
Fast, Athletic, strong arm. Remind you of someone? He shouldnt, Robinson should become a WR or safety, but even if he stays at QB, not a bad late round choice.



The rest will come shortly.

So your say kellen clemens is just as good a prospect as jay cutler? Its 1 thing to not believe in the hype of cutler but its another thing to not give him credit for his talent. Cutler has the potential to be the best qb in the class scouts see it, as do many of the top draft analysis. If you dont like him thats fine but dont be niave.

Jaj
01-29-2006, 04:04 PM
Watched the Senior Bowl and the Practice's on the NFL Netork. With all the talk about Cutler he didn't seem to stand out to me. To me Cutler Croyle Whitehurst were the best QB's at the Senior bowl. However, you probally have to spend a first on Cutler and he didn't look superior to the other two that you wouldn't have to give up a first round pick for. Whitehurst reminds me a little of Brady doesn't have a huge arm but seems to have a feel for the game and Croyle seems to have a rocket but injuries are a concern. I wouldn't mind taking Croyle, whiterhust, or Omar Jacobs as long as it isnt' it the first round.

Whitehurst doesn't have a huge arm? Are you kidding me? He was just using touch.

dolphindude13
01-29-2006, 04:08 PM
Cutler looked like JP Losman in the pocket to me. I dont see a presence in the pocket. He didnt look comfortable. The arm is great, decent accuracy, and has the size, but I would stay away from this guy.

Missing some throws in one game isnt going to hurt him, but in my opinion, Cutler is just a prototype QB, without the intangibles.

I think the best option for you guys would be to trade the 1st for Rivers, instead of drafting a QB with your 1st.Don't let the Senior Bowl fool you! He was playing with guys he had no chemistry built up with and had 5 days of practice with. One of the things you mention as a negative (pocket presence) is one of his intangibles I believe. The guy is a natural leader who commands respect in the huddle and has all the tools to back it up. I would take Cutler over Rivers any day and twice on Sunday!:shakeno:

sports24/7
01-29-2006, 04:20 PM
Jay Cutler-Grade: C+ COG: 5
Excessive scrambler, cannon of an arm, mobile, Bad time management, Not the type of QB miami is looking for. Mobile, yes, but needs to learn to look for recievers instead of running as soon as the pocket starts to cave.

Omar Jacobs-Grade: B+ COG: 9
AMAZING talent, great arm, mobile, team leader, confidence. He's got a lot of talent. Needs to work on mechanics and develop as a player, but a grade A player.


Not even close to their real grades. The reason why Cutler had to move out of the pocket so much was because his line was awful. I think that is going to have an affect on him early because he is still a little shell shocked, but with good coaching he can overcome that. He still has a lightning release, great arm strength, and good accuracy. And even though you think he is "not the type of QB Miami is looking for" Saban seems to disagree becase multiple sources have reported he is very interested in him and he has met with him twice. Jacobs is a good prospect but has ALOT to work on and will take at least two years probably more on the bench to learn how to be an NFL QB.

As for your QB A, B, and C debate. Here's one for you:

QB A: 9565 yards passing in 3 years starting, 86 TD's, 28 INT's

QB B: 4548 yards in two years starting, 22 TD's, 26 INT's

QB C: 5400 yards in 3 years starting, 23 TD's, 32 INT's

I'll even add a QB D: 3763 yards passing in one full year starting 32 TD's 8 INT's

Can you guess which QBs turned out to be great NFL QB's and which ones didn't? Not based on the statistics because your college statistics have more to do with who is on your team and who you play against rather than how good you are.

EDIT: For those who are interested
A-Ken Dorsey
B-Matt Hasselbeck
C-Trent Green
D-Akili Smith

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:23 PM
So your say kellen clemens is just as good a prospect as jay cutler? Its 1 thing to not believe in the hype of cutler but its another thing to not give him credit for his talent. Cutler has the potential to be the best qb in the class scouts see it, as do many of the top draft analysis. If you dont like him thats fine but dont be niave.


Cutler: 710/1242 attempts 57.1%, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season

Clemens: 613/1005, 61%, 71 TD, 24 INT, avg 1,890 yds/season, and thats with one year (2002) where he barely played


Dont like career stats?

Cutler (2005): 273/462, 59.8%, 21 TD, 9 INT, 126 Rating
Clemens (2005): 185/289, 64%, 19 TD, 4 INT, 153 Rating

"Well, Cutler is mobile and that makes hm a more complete player"
Not really, Cutler was sacked about 23 times, Clemens? Eight.




Yeah, I'd say clemens is just as good, IF not better.

Jaj
01-29-2006, 04:25 PM
Cutler: 710/1242 attempts 57.1%, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season

Clemens: 613/1005, 61%, 71 TD, 24 INT, avg 1,890 yds/season, and thats with one year (2002) where he barely played


Dont like career stats?

Cutler (2005): 273/462, 59.8%, 21 TD, 9 INT, 126 Rating
Clemens (2005): 185/289, 64%, 19 TD, 4 INT, 153 Rating


Yeah, I'd say clemens is just as good, IF not better.

Sorry but that's a foolish argument in its entirety. The players don't project the same to the NFL as they did in college. Clemens isn't even close to Cutler in that regard.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:27 PM
Sorry but that's a foolish argument in its entirety. The players don't project the same to the NFL as they did in college. Clemens isn't even close to Cutler in that regard.


Again, Narrow-minded cutler supporters. I DONT CARE WHAT HES PROJECTED TO DO. He can be PROJECTED TO GO FIRST OVERALL AND WIN 900 SUPERBOWLS, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.

Stats speak louder than projections my friend.

Jaj
01-29-2006, 04:29 PM
Again, Narrow-minded cutler supporters. I DONT CARE WHAT HES PROJECTED TO DO. He can be PROJECTED TO GO FIRST OVERALL AND WIN 900 SUPERBOWLS, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.

Stats speak louder than projections my friend.

Ya and I guess Kliff Kingsbury is going to the Pro Bowl for that reason? :rolleyes:

sports24/7
01-29-2006, 04:29 PM
Again, Narrow-minded cutler supporters. I DONT CARE WHAT HES PROJECTED TO DO. He can be PROJECTED TO GO FIRST OVERALL AND WIN 900 SUPERBOWLS, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.

Stats speak louder than projections my friend.
No they don't. Read my post above and you'll see why.

EBMisfit
01-29-2006, 04:30 PM
Right because in college the best stats are always going to be had by the best player...... :refuse:

I think he was being facetious.

Lazy1
01-29-2006, 04:33 PM
Cutler: 710/1242 attempts 57.1%, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season

Clemens: 613/1005, 61%, 71 TD, 24 INT, avg 1,890 yds/season, and thats with one year (2002) where he barely played


Dont like career stats?

Cutler (2005): 273/462, 59.8%, 21 TD, 9 INT, 126 Rating
Clemens (2005): 185/289, 64%, 19 TD, 4 INT, 153 Rating

"Well, Cutler is mobile and that makes hm a more complete player"
Not really, Cutler was sacked about 23 times, Clemens? Eight.




Yeah, I'd say clemens is just as good, IF not better.

With that assumption i'd say your pretty stupid. Fortunatley it doesn't matter what you think and we have people in the front office that can decifer good college players between college players that project well in the NFL.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:34 PM
You all need to get your heads out of cutlers but and realize you are overhyping him so much. You believe all the rumors and all the reports from the guys, and it's sickening. You look at his TD in the senior bowl, andyou act like its the next amazing play of the century. Not the fact that he was almost picked like 3 plays before, and wa spicked in the endzone beforehand, but because he threw a TD hes amazing. You say that you need to watch all the games, and his stats dont tell me he was amazing. He's a white michael vick, with 2 times less potential.


Im done arguing with people that are convinced cutler is god, and refuse to believe anything else.

Jaj
01-29-2006, 04:34 PM
You all need to get your heads out of cutlers but and realize you are overhyping him so much. You believe all the rumors and all the reports from the guys, and it's sickening. You look at his TD in the senior bowl, andyou act like its the next amazing play of the century. Not the fact that he was almost picked like 3 plays before, and wa spicked in the endzone beforehand, but because he threw a TD hes amazing. You say that you need to watch all the games, and his stats dont tell me he was amazing. He's a white michael vick, with 2 times less potential.


Im done arguing with people that are convinced cutler is god, and refuse to believe anything else.

Good.

EBMisfit
01-29-2006, 04:36 PM
I pity any team that chooses Vick. What a jerk
He seems like the QB version of Kellen Winslow, Jr., except it's his brother that's talented instead of his father.

sports24/7
01-29-2006, 04:38 PM
You all need to get your heads out of cutlers but and realize you are overhyping him so much. You believe all the rumors and all the reports from the guys, and it's sickening. You look at his TD in the senior bowl, andyou act like its the next amazing play of the century. Not the fact that he was almost picked like 3 plays before, and wa spicked in the endzone beforehand, but because he threw a TD hes amazing. You say that you need to watch all the games, and his stats dont tell me he was amazing. He's a white michael vick, with 2 times less potential.


Im done arguing with people that are convinced cutler is god, and refuse to believe anything else.
This post proves you haven't seen him play that much and really don't know much about him. He is nothing like Mike Vick. And his Senior Bowl preformance has nothing to do with how people feel about him. He was using a totally new system and was trying to do too much. I'm not the type of person to be influenced just by hype. I do research and found plenty of evidence to support that this kid is the real deal. He's not perfect and needs some work, but he has some very good tools and has the potential to be a very good QB in the NFL.

Jaj
01-29-2006, 04:38 PM
He seems like the QB version of Kellen Winslow, Jr., except it's his brother that's talented instead of his father.

Jr. is more talented that his father by far, he just never plays. It's a different case.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:41 PM
Omar Jacobs is better than Jay Cutler. Honest opinion, not joking one bit.

Lazy1
01-29-2006, 04:43 PM
Omar Jacobs is better than Jay Cutler. Honest opinion, not joking one bit.

I knew you were joking when you said kellen clemens was better than cutler... you were joking right?

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-29-2006, 04:45 PM
Omar Jacobs is better than Jay Cutler. Honest opinion, not joking one bit.
you should be ashamed you're NOT joking. but your "white michael vick" comment really says a lot of your quarterback analysis.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:51 PM
I knew you were joking when you said kellen clemens was better than cutler... you were joking right?


Partly, I was shocked when Clemens had better stats.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:51 PM
you should be ashamed you're NOT joking. but your "white michael vick" comment really says a lot of your quarterback analysis.


Ill let you know there is a lot of comic relief in my analysis, i like to put things bluntly.

PhinSoldia
01-29-2006, 04:53 PM
If cutler runs first what does Young do? look its shows that Cutler have a ways to go but he will be very good...Croyle...maybe, Whitehurst a career back-up

Coral Reefer
01-29-2006, 04:55 PM
Right because in college the best stats are always going to be had by the best player...... :refuse:


Dude it's not even worth trying to talk logically with many on this board. Many just don't get it. :lol:

If only it was just so easy as to look up stats and find an athlete that will dominate at the NFL level.

Want a laugh, refer back to this thread in 3 years as by then we'll see where every prospect ends up.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:55 PM
Scout.com report on Omar Jacobs

Pos: Big-armed, accurate passer who does an outstanding job commanding the offense. Natural looking off the safety, sits in the pocket buying time for receivers and drives the ball downfield with a flick of his wrist. Loses nothing throwing on the run and accurate passing on the move. Leads targets with throws, letting receivers go up and get the ball. Fires the ball between defenders and consistently shows outstanding pass placement. Effectively reads the defense and finds the open wide outs.

Neg: Takes most of his snaps out of the shotgun. Gathers and readies himself before releasing the ball. Has a three quarters delivery and releases the ball through his ear, at times throwing with almost a side arm motion. Under throws deep targets on occasion. Could be criticized for holding the ball too long.

Analysis: A physically talented football player and gifted signal caller, Jacobs has outstanding potential for the next level. Benefits from a quarterback friendly system at BGSU and must learn to play a pro-style offense but a quarterback prospect NFL-franchises can build around.

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 04:57 PM
Omar Jacobs is, IMO, a better guy to lead miami. Would i be happy with him or cutler? Sure.

Jaj
01-29-2006, 05:07 PM
Omar Jacobs is, IMO, a better guy to lead miami. Would i be happy with him or cutler? Sure.

Don't laugh but of all the QBs who has a chance to really go up, Jacobs has by far the most ability. With a good combine, he can do quite a bit.

LarryFinFan
01-29-2006, 05:07 PM
2006 Draft Class
[color=#0e6714]


Also, here's a little brainbuster for all the cutler lovers

*career #s, unless noted*

Player A: 815 completions, 1,366 attempts, 60% completion, 49 TD, 46 INT, 2414 yds/season
Player B: 710 completions, 1242 attempts, 57.1% completion, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season,
Player C: 523 completions, 811 attempts, 64.5% completion, 71 TD, 11 INT, 2,313 yds/season



You tell me who looks the best out of those 3, and no cheating by looking up the stats. Tell me, by looking at those numbers, who looks best.

Really holds no credence to the fact that Cutler raised his stock significantly at the Senior bowl. The fact is that he got the attention of the scouts and answered several questions there was about his skills, whether or not he has great stats to back it up....He's now projected to go in the top 10...now, that could change with poor combine or individual workouts and interviews, but gotta give him credit for what he's done this past week.

The problem is that the main focus of NFL success is directed to the QB, therefore any and every QB gets over-evaluated and over-hyped to his actual ability in relationship to his potential. Cutler may be the next Marino or may be the next Ryan Leaf and so may Leinart, Jacobs, Eli Manning, Rivers, and every other recently drafted or to-be-drafted college QB...

The arguments can go on forever until these guys prove something....

BTW, while stats can usually tell a good story of a guys ability, it's not the ultimate tell-all. For example, the stats say that Gus has about 55-57% completion rate this past year (don't remember the exact rate), but if you saw him play and watch what the receivers had to do to catch many of his passes, you'd have to say he was a lot worse. Unfortunately there is no stat for passes that the receivers caught, but were late to them, behind them, too far in front of them, or had them contorting their bodies to make the catch or altering their routes...that also affects YACs, but there is no stat for that....so, QB stats do not tell the entire story, just parts of the total story...

PhinSoldia
01-29-2006, 05:09 PM
Don't laugh but of all the QBs who has a chance to really go up, Jacobs has by far the most ability. With a good combine, he can do quite a bit.

true because he was a slated first rounder before all the Young-Cutler hoopla began plus he had a sub-par season

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 05:15 PM
"Rumors of an Aaron Rodgers-like draft slide for USC quarterback Matt Leinart are already being discussed."


Interesting

Jaj
01-29-2006, 05:16 PM
That's impossible though because Miami would pick him and not even blink.

Coral Reefer
01-29-2006, 05:18 PM
2006 Draft Class


Also, here's a little brainbuster for all the cutler lovers

*career #s, unless noted*

Player A: 815 completions, 1,366 attempts, 60% completion, 49 TD, 46 INT, 2414 yds/season
Player B: 710 completions, 1242 attempts, 57.1% completion, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season,
Player C: 523 completions, 811 attempts, 64.5% completion, 71 TD, 11 INT, 2,313 yds/season




You tell me who looks the best out of those 3, and no cheating by looking up the stats. Tell me, by looking at those numbers, who looks best.

How about Player D:

Total 625 completions 1083 attempts 57% completion 7905 yards 74 TD's 64 Interceptions.

Based on your stat analysis, Player C is going to be a much better NFL Qb than Player D as well.......

Can anyone guess who player D is?




Player D is Dan Marino. His college stats from Pitt.

You can see exactly how much those stats mean in determining an NFL prospect.

jlfin
01-29-2006, 05:25 PM
2006 Draft Class
Matt Leinart
Vince Young
Jay Cutler
Paul Pinegar
Darrell Hackney
Brodie Croyle
Omar Jacobs
Brad Smith
Bruce Gradkowski
Josh Betts
Drew Olson
Charlie Whitehurst
Reggie McNeal
Ingle Martin
Jay Davis
Macus Vick
Kellen Clemens
Bruce Eugene
Brett Basenez


2006 Free Agency
Player Type 2005 Team
Anthony Wright UFA Ravens
Charlie Batch UFA Steelers
Chris Simms RFA Buccaneers
Chris Weinke UFA Panthers
Craig Nall UFA Packers
Damon Huard UFA Chiefs
Dave Ragone RFA Texans
Doug Flutie UFA Patriots
Drew Brees UFA Chargers
Jamie Martin UFA Rams
Jeff Blake UFA Bears
Jeff Garcia UFA Lions
Jesse Palmer UFA 49ers
Jon Kitna UFA Bengals
Josh McCown UFA Cardinals
Ken Dorsey RFA 49ers
Kliff Kingsbury RFA Jets
Kurt Warner UFA Cardinals
Sage Rosenfels UFA Dolphins
Seneca Wallace RFA Seahawks
Shane Matthews UFA Bills
Shaun Hill UFA Vikings
Tim Hasselbeck UFA Giants
Todd Collins UFA Chiefs
Ty Detmer UFA
Vinny Testaverde UFA Jets

2006 Trade Possibilities
Dante Culpepper-Vikings
Philip Rivers-Chargers




Also, here's a little brainbuster for all the cutler lovers

*career #s, unless noted*

Player A: 815 completions, 1,366 attempts, 60% completion, 49 TD, 46 INT, 2414 yds/season
Player B: 710 completions, 1242 attempts, 57.1% completion, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season,
Player C: 523 completions, 811 attempts, 64.5% completion, 71 TD, 11 INT, 2,313 yds/season



You tell me who looks the best out of those 3, and no cheating by looking up the stats. Tell me, by looking at those numbers, who looks best.

Why don't you also mention what level of college they played in (Div 1, Div 2 etc)?

jlfin
01-29-2006, 05:27 PM
Don't take the Senior Bowl as a true reflection of Cutler's future career, we were all hoping he'd have a terrible game, and he did. Now maybe we can get a shot at him. I'd go back to some college tape and evaluate his pocket presence at different stages of the game before I give up on him.

However, I do agree that Rivers will be better than Cutler (and Rivers is seasoned now, we don't have to wait two years). If we could get him for our first and Madison, I would do it. But I doubt San Diego lets him go with Brees' injury.

Seasoned with what? Salt and pepper :D
The guy hasn't played. I'd rather see the Dolphins inquire about Carr.

fishypete
01-29-2006, 05:27 PM
Really holds no credence to the fact that Cutler raised his stock significantly at the Senior bowl. The fact is that he got the attention of the scouts and answered several questions there was about his skills, whether or not he has great stats to back it up....He's now projected to go in the top 10...now, that could change with poor combine or individual workouts and interviews, but gotta give him credit for what he's done this past week.

The problem is that the main focus of NFL success is directed to the QB, therefore any and every QB gets over-evaluated and over-hyped to his actual ability in relationship to his potential. Cutler may be the next Marino or may be the next Ryan Leaf and so may Leinart, Jacobs, Eli Manning, Rivers, and every other recently drafted or to-be-drafted college QB...

The arguments can go on forever until these guys prove something....

BTW, while stats can usually tell a good story of a guys ability, it's not the ultimate tell-all. For example, the stats say that Gus has about 55-57% completion rate this past year (don't remember the exact rate), but if you saw him play and watch what the receivers had to do to catch many of his passes, you'd have to say he was a lot worse. Unfortunately there is no stat for passes that the receivers caught, but were late to them, behind them, too far in front of them, or had them contorting their bodies to make the catch or altering their routes...that also affects YACs, but there is no stat for that....so, QB stats do not tell the entire story, just parts of the total story...

How did he raise his stock up? His practices were average....his bowl game was below average...unless you consider 32% comp rating good. You can make excuses for him...but then you have to make the same excuses for all of the QB's....they all had the same conditions.

Lazy1
01-29-2006, 05:34 PM
I do like Jacobs, the guy has a boatload of talent. Wouldn't be upset if we drafted him.

jlfin
01-29-2006, 05:35 PM
Omar Jacobs is better than Jay Cutler. Honest opinion, not joking one bit.

Bowling Green doesn't exactly play in the SEC. I think I'd rather rely on the opinions of those who get paid to make personnel decisions.
Jacobs is a project and is very raw. He also will face a big step up in competition from college to the NFL. Not so with Cutler, Croyle or Whitehurst. They all played against top competition.

tylerdolphin
01-29-2006, 06:11 PM
BTW, while stats can usually tell a good story of a guys ability, it's not the ultimate tell-all. For example, the stats say that Gus has about 55-57% completion rate this past year (don't remember the exact rate), but if you saw him play and watch what the receivers had to do to catch many of his passes, you'd have to say he was a lot worse. Unfortunately there is no stat for passes that the receivers caught, but were late to them, behind them, too far in front of them, or had them contorting their bodies to make the catch or altering their routes...that also affects YACs, but there is no stat for that....so, QB stats do not tell the entire story, just parts of the total story...
BTW Gus only completed a dreadful 51%
And his YPA was among the lowest in the league.

saves
01-29-2006, 07:43 PM
Omar Jacobs is better than Jay Cutler. Honest opinion, not joking one bit.

What would make you say that?

Miami_Dolphins
01-29-2006, 08:31 PM
What would make you say that?

My honest opinion. Jacobs has a lot of potential, which is why i think he's got the potential to be much better than cutler.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-29-2006, 09:30 PM
My honest opinion. Jacobs has a lot of potential, which is why i think he's got the potential to be much better than cutler.
you can form an opinion based on nothing very easily. give reasons why you think player A is better than player B, instead of just saying "that's how i feel." otherwise you're just picking favorites.

Vertical Limit
01-29-2006, 09:39 PM
As for your QB A, B, and C debate. Here's one for you:

QB A: 9565 yards passing in 3 years starting, 86 TD's, 28 INT's

QB B: 4548 yards in two years starting, 22 TD's, 26 INT's

QB C: 5400 yards in 3 years starting, 23 TD's, 32 INT's

I'll even add a QB D: 3763 yards passing in one full year starting 32 TD's 8 INT's

Can you guess which QBs turned out to be great NFL QB's and which ones didn't? Not based on the statistics because your college statistics have more to do with who is on your team and who you play against rather than how good you are.

EDIT: For those who are interested
A-Ken Dorsey
B-Matt Hasselbeck
C-Trent Green
D-Akili Smith
Hey, any team that takes a chance at Ken Dorsey and develop him would benefit greatly. The guy has potential and has shown potential with that crappy 49ers team. I remember that 49ers vs Seahawks game earlier this season, which was the Hall of Fame game for Steve Young, Ken Dorsey looked great.

And he's young and a Free Agent as well.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-29-2006, 09:41 PM
Hey, any team that takes a chance at Ken Dorsey and develop him would benefit greatly. The guy has potential and has shown potential with that crappy 49ers team. I remember that 49ers vs Seahawks game earlier this season, which was the Hall of Fame game for Steve Young, Ken Dorsey looked great.

And he's young and a Free Agent as well.
he looked great for ken dorsey. nothing too special for any other QB.

Vertical Limit
01-29-2006, 09:46 PM
He has not been coached well. Come on now, just look at that 49ers coaching staff. Since Steve Young left the team, that team went to crap. Get him the right coaching staff, and he can develop into a star. He has all the talent, and looked alot better than Alex Smith.

Just look at Matt Hasselback, a 6 round draft choice by Green Bay. The right coaching staff lead him to be the elite QB he is right now in the NFC.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-29-2006, 09:51 PM
He has not been coached well. Come on now, just look at that 49ers coaching staff. Since Steve Young left the team, that team went to crap. Get him the right coaching staff, and he can develop into a star. He has all the talent, and looked alot better than Alex Smith.

Just look at Matt Hasselback, a 6 round draft choice by Green Bay. The right coaching staff lead him to be the elite QB he is right now in the NFC.
dorsey was never that good in college. he got the ball to his players, but he tended to made poor decisions, lacked the ability to escape a pass rush, had poor footwork, a very weak arm, etc. he's "good journeyman" written all over him.

Finfanforever
01-29-2006, 09:52 PM
Omar Jacobs is better than Jay Cutler. Honest opinion, not joking one bit.

Then your delousional!:shakeno:

Finfanforever
01-29-2006, 09:56 PM
How did he raise his stock up? His practices were average....his bowl game was below average...unless you consider 32% comp rating good. You can make excuses for him...but then you have to make the same excuses for all of the QB's....they all had the same conditions.

Pete,

I agree that his game was "nothing to write home about" but his practices awd the scouts. Where are you getting your info from. I'm beginning to think your just bias against Cutler for some reason. That's ashame because it shows your ignorance on the subject. :o

cowtowndick
01-29-2006, 09:58 PM
Cutler: 710/1242 attempts 57.1%, 59 TD, 36 INT, avg. 2,174 yds/season

Clemens: 613/1005, 61%, 71 TD, 24 INT, avg 1,890 yds/season, and thats with one year (2002) where he barely played


Dont like career stats?

Cutler (2005): 273/462, 59.8%, 21 TD, 9 INT, 126 Rating
Clemens (2005): 185/289, 64%, 19 TD, 4 INT, 153 Rating

"Well, Cutler is mobile and that makes hm a more complete player"
Not really, Cutler was sacked about 23 times, Clemens? Eight.




Yeah, I'd say clemens is just as good, IF not better.

your posts are getting redundant - look, we get it: you think cutler is a terrible choice for qb. but you base your argument on college stats - i'm sure gino torretta had great numbers coming out of his senior year. wasn't it mark twain that said there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics. if stats are all you should go by, then i'm sure there are a few more names you could throw into the argument. but they don't tell the whole story - what about the fact that cutler played in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country, on a team that was brutal, and he's still in the discussion for who might be the best choice for us at qb. your anti-cutler bias undermines most of the effectiveness of your arguments.

Vertical Limit
01-29-2006, 10:01 PM
dorsey was never that good in college. he got the ball to his players, but he tended to made poor decisions, lacked the ability to escape a pass rush, had poor footwork, a very weak arm, etc. he's "good journeyman" written all over him.
Those are all things that can be worked on. He is a good manager of the game, and has potential to be a star with the right team and the right coaches if they give him a chance and develop him, is all I am saying. If I were the Chicago Bears, I would definitely grab him. They need a QB, at the same time, I wouldn't be against bringing him back in Miami as a backup and compete for the starter position with Gus Frerotte if we don't find that QB that we are looking for. Sage is rumored to get released, so whatever.

And all those things you just mentioned about Dorsey are the same things I saw from Jay Cutler yesterday and that game against LSU he had earlier this season with a 55.0 passer rating.

dolphindude13
01-29-2006, 10:05 PM
"Rumors of an Aaron Rodgers-like draft slide for USC quarterback Matt Leinart are already being discussed."


InterestingIf Leinart "slips" as you call it I guarantee it won't be past 4 to the Jets! If by some crazy act of the football gods he were to fall to 16 and the Fins, i would have to clean my shorts out and I'm sure Saban would to.....Hmmm I think we should start the rumor that Leinart does crack as our last rookie QB had some drug questions coming into the draft and that turned out pretty well!:wink:

fishypete
01-29-2006, 10:20 PM
Pete,

I agree that his game was "nothing to write home about" but his practices awd the scouts. Where are you getting your info from. I'm beginning to think your just bias against Cutler for some reason. That's ashame because it shows your ignorance on the subject. :o

Scott Wright
President, NFL Draft Countdown

The following are my initial impressions of some of the players from the game. Please keep in mind that I watched the game from the sidelines and have not yet seen the television broadcast so this is VERY preliminary.

At quarterback I saw a lot of the same things from Jay Cutler that I had seen all week, a great arm, flashes of brilliance but largely a lot of inconsistency.

The story of this game was the guys in the trenches, who really dominated their South counterparts on both sides of the ball. Tamba Hali was the most impressive player I saw on the field while Charlie Whitehurst outshined his more hyped teammate Jay Cutler.

I'd say it's all in the eye of the beholder...but I do have to ask you this...what scouts are you talking about? What are their names? What teams do they work for? Can you provide anything in writing...from these scouts?

I think you'll find that you won't find anything from a scout...not if he wants to work...as a scout....what you may hear are opinions from Draftniks...and wannabe scouts...or as I like to think of them...Guru's.

You'll also find...that practices have there place...but there's nothing like a game....nothing in the world....:sidelol:

Finfanforever
01-29-2006, 10:25 PM
Scott Wright
President, NFL Draft Countdown

The following are my initial impressions of some of the players from the game. Please keep in mind that I watched the game from the sidelines and have not yet seen the television broadcast so this is VERY preliminary.

At quarterback I saw a lot of the same things from Jay Cutler that I had seen all week, a great arm, flashes of brilliance but largely a lot of inconsistency.

The story of this game was the guys in the trenches, who really dominated their South counterparts on both sides of the ball. Tamba Hali was the most impressive player I saw on the field while Charlie Whitehurst outshined his more hyped teammate Jay Cutler.

I'd say it's all in the eye of the beholder...but I do have to ask you this...what scouts are you talking about? What are their names? What teams do they work for? Can you provide anything in writing...from these scouts?

I think you'll find that you won't find anything from a scout...not if he wants to work...as a scout....what you may hear are opinions from Draftniks...and wannabe scouts...or as I like to think of them...Guru's.

You'll also find...that practices have there place...but there's nothing like a game....nothing in the world....:sidelol:

All the info I heard was that Cutler SOLIDIFIED himself as a mid-to-top FIRST ROUNDER. Mel Kiper as well as Romeo Cromel (Browns) and others backed up that opinion.

nopony
01-29-2006, 10:29 PM
your posts are getting redundant - look, we get it: you think cutler is a terrible choice for qb. but you base your argument on college stats -



What is he supposed to base it on for two college players? High school stats? Horoscopes?



i'm sure gino torretta had great numbers coming out of his senior year. wasn't it mark twain that said there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics. if stats are all you should go by, then i'm sure there are a few more names you could throw into the argument. but they don't tell the whole story -


If you look at them in proper context they do, absolutely. Another quote is also true "numbers don't lie." People can lie WITH numbers, but the numbers don't.

Arguing against the use of stats in evaluation is the halllmark of someone who is losing an argument.

There are plenty of true, real stats in Cutler's favor. They matter... so do the bad ones. And putting them all in context is the key.. yes, it matters who he played with and against... how much? That's the room for debate.


what about the fact that cutler played in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country, on a team that was brutal, and he's still in the discussion for who might be the best choice for us at qb. your anti-cutler bias undermines most of the effectiveness of your arguments.

And he took them to what? A 3-6 record or something? Just because someone is on the opposite side of the argument from you doesn't mean their bias invalidates what they say. Especially if they are using facts and stats.

There are a lot of ways to defend Cutler and a lot of ways to deride him... he is an inconsistent and puzzling player to evaluate.

It's fair to look at all that.

nopony
01-29-2006, 10:33 PM
All the info I heard was that Cutler SOLIDIFIED himself as a mid-to-top FIRST ROUNDER. Mel Kiper as well as Romeo Cromel (Browns) and others backed up that opinion.

I've heard otherwise... remember, the very last thing people like Kiper can afford right now is to look stupid.

Before the game there were a TON of analysts saying that Cutler was going to rocket up the charts, that he was going to dominate the senior bowl and was right up there with Leinart and Young.

I thought at the time... "What happens if he doesn't? Do you take it all back?"

And I am NOT anti-Cutler, but anyone who says he belongs in the same discussion as Leinart (who i can't stand, but can respect) and Young is out of their ever-lovin' minds. He has done nothing to deserve that.

It happens every year. The pre-draft talk is as predictable as a Gilligan's Island episode.

As far as Cutler "solidifying" his draft postion, they absolutely HAD to be talking about practices, because he was terrible in the game.

Finfanforever
01-29-2006, 10:38 PM
I've heard otherwise... remember, the very last thing people like Kiper can afford right now is to look stupid.

Before the game there were a TON of analysts saying that Cutler was going to rocket up the charts, that he was going to dominate the senior bowl and was right up there with Leinart and Young.

I thought at the time... "What happens if he doesn't? Do you take it all back?"

And I am NOT anti-Cutler, but anyone who says he belongs in the same discussion as Leinart (who i can't stand, but can respect) and Young is out of their ever-lovin' minds. He has done nothing to deserve that.

It happens every year. The pre-draft talk is as predictable as a Gilligan's Island episode.

As far as Cutler "solidifying" his draft postion, they absolutely HAD to be talking about practices, because he was terrible in the game.

He certainly did not have a good showing in the game but the scouts were on him like stink-on-crap during the week at practice and they liked what they saw.

nopony
01-29-2006, 10:42 PM
He certainly did not have a good showing in the game but the scouts were on him like stink-on-crap during the week at practice and they liked what they saw.

That's what I heard, too. And I have no problem with that. i don't hold one game against anybody.

fishypete
01-29-2006, 10:44 PM
All the info I heard was that Cutler SOLIDIFIED himself as a mid-to-top FIRST ROUNDER. Mel Kiper as well as Romeo Cromel (Browns) and others backed up that opinion.

Mel Kiper....please.

Try looking at more experts....but my advice is to wait alittle bit...let the air clear out...and then see what they have to say.

I heard ex-players on ESPN...disputing what Kiper was saying...but thats nothing new...like I said...it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Nicky Napoleon
01-30-2006, 12:00 AM
Dude it's not even worth trying to talk logically with many on this board. Many just don't get it. :lol:

If only it was just so easy as to look up stats and find an athlete that will dominate at the NFL level.

Want a laugh, refer back to this thread in 3 years as by then we'll see where every prospect ends up.

Yeah I know, if stats were the determining factor for a successful pro career Ty Detmer would have been Dan Marino!

For those that are harping on Cutlers stats look ole' Ty up. He holds a ton of NCAA records and where is he now? Oh Oh Oh and what about Big Andre Ware, his stats were second to none where did that get him. When looking at college player you look at his past, but you have to look at his potential. This is where Cutler gets his value, he has prototypical size, he can toss the ball a long way, he can run if need be, and he has proven that he is a leader on the field. You want to know why people are infatuated, thats why. The guy almost single handedly beat UF, he can flat out play!!!

nopony
01-30-2006, 12:22 AM
Yeah I know, if stats were the determining factor for a successful pro career Ty Detmer would have been Dan Marino!

For those that are harping on Cutlers stats look ole' Ty up. He holds a ton of NCAA records and where is he now? Oh Oh Oh and what about Big Andre Ware, his stats were second to none where did that get him. When looking at college player you look at his past, but you have to look at his potential. This is where Cutler gets his value, he has prototypical size, he can toss the ball a long way, he can run if need be, and he has proven that he is a leader on the field. You want to know why people are infatuated, thats why. The guy almost single handedly beat UF, he can flat out play!!!

People that can "almost win" are worth exactly the same as people that can "totally lose". :wink:

My problem with Cutler is that he is exactly the kind of guy that gets totally overvalued in the draft and flops in the NFL. When people fall in love with Size and Arm Strength, I say it's time to be cautious... because those are the two most blinding characteristics a guy can have.

As far as the "leader on the field"... what are you basing that on? He didn't win. He didn't really elevate the play of those around him.

I am very nervous about his intangibles and his accuracy. And those, to me, are number one and two on the importance scale. Everything else is great and important... but if you let size and arm strength dictate your qb drafting, you are in huge trouble. And you are going to have to overpay.

cowtowndick
01-30-2006, 01:42 AM
What is he supposed to base it on for two college players? High school stats? Horoscopes?


Arguing against the use of stats in evaluation is the halllmark of someone who is losing an argument.

There are plenty of true, real stats in Cutler's favor. They matter... so do the bad ones. And putting them all in context is the key.. yes, it matters who he played with and against... how much? That's the room for debate.


And he took them to what? A 3-6 record or something? Just because someone is on the opposite side of the argument from you doesn't mean their bias invalidates what they say. Especially if they are using facts and stats.

There are a lot of ways to defend Cutler and a lot of ways to deride him... he is an inconsistent and puzzling player to evaluate.

It's fair to look at all that.

a) re the use of stats - if that's your sole criteria for evaluating the potential of college qb's, then you're doing a disservice to the debate in general. to say that kellen clemens is at least as good as, if not better, than cutler and base your argument solely on the stats is weak. if stats ruled the day, why don't i read any "draft cody hodges" or "draft brett basenez" threads. better people than i - the ones that get paid to engage in this sort of analysis - have ranked cutler where they have ranked him.

b) those who advocate the drafting of cutler don't necessarily use stats for their argument. moreso, it's the intangibles, the physical tools, the potential.

c) vanderbilt's record this year - 5 and 6 - would have been a hell of a lot worse without cutler. name another guy who plays on that team. name one that will get drafted. and it's 5 and 6 in the sec, not that mac or a junior conference. and that should matter, quite a bit. and for fun, let's look at his stats in the last three games. vandy goes 1 and 2 in those games (beat tennessee, lost to florida and kentucky) - losing record, what a shame. cutler's numbers: 147 attempts, 94 completions (64%), 1071 yards, 12 td's, 2 int's. those numbers seem pretty ok to me, but what do i know?

d) a bias can contribute to invalidating one's argument when it becomes the starting point from which one makes their case. if i've already decided that a player is great or sucks, then conveniently edit my evaluation tools to support my bias (rather than my argument), then i'm not really contributing much to the debate.

but of course, this is all just my opinion, and that and a quarter will get you a phone call...or is it 35 cents these days....

nopony
01-30-2006, 02:07 AM
a) re the use of stats - if that's your sole criteria for evaluating the potential of college qb's, then you're doing a disservice to the debate in general. to say that kellen clemens is at least as good as, if not better, than cutler and base your argument solely on the stats is weak. if stats ruled the day, why don't i read any "draft cody hodges" or "draft brett basenez" threads. better people than i - the ones that get paid to engage in this sort of analysis - have ranked cutler where they have ranked him.

Absolutely. That's called context.

But I wasn't insulting context. Stats were being insulted and that's just silly. That's like arguing you don't like facts.


b) those who advocate the drafting of cutler don't necessarily use stats for their argument. moreso, it's the intangibles, the physical tools, the potential.

The first two, if valuable SHOW UP IN THE STATS. Why would anyone think a 5-6 or whatever he was who lost big games and choked in his showcase has intangibles? Not saying he doesn't, but what makes anyone think he DOES?

If you don't know, or can't prove it, then it's irrelevant.

As for the potential... again, WHY? What makes him have anywhere near the potential of Leinart or Young?


c) vanderbilt's record this year - 5 and 6 - would have been a hell of a lot worse without cutler. name another guy who plays on that team. name one that will get drafted. and it's 5 and 6 in the sec, not that mac or a junior conference. and that should matter, quite a bit. and for fun, let's look at his stats in the last three games. vandy goes 1 and 2 in those games (beat tennessee, lost to florida and kentucky) - losing record, what a shame. cutler's numbers: 147 attempts, 94 completions (64%), 1071 yards, 12 td's, 2 int's. those numbers seem pretty ok to me, but what do i know?

I agree, Vanderbilt stinks. Cutler didn't really make them NOT stink.

And those numbers are great. Must have had some really stinky games early, since those are much better than his season.

Again, I'm not particularly anti-cutler, but I fail to see why he is so coveted. I bet half the people that are dying to have him on the team never even saw him play before yesterday.

To me, honestly, he sounds like a good 2nd round project. You shouldn't sell the farm to get a guy who has bust warning signs on him. He could be fantastic, but he has a much bigger chance of busting than a guy like Leinart or Young.


d) a bias can contribute to invalidating one's argument when it becomes the starting point from which one makes their case. if i've already decided that a player is great or sucks, then conveniently edit my evaluation tools to support my bias (rather than my argument), then i'm not really contributing much to the debate.

Sure you COULD. But you are assuming that the bias led to the "facts" instead of the much more likely "facts led to the bias."

if you really think bias invalidates something someone is saying you need to show that they have something personal invested in player a's success or failure. That's bias.

Not loving a quarterback because the facts or your experience led you to that conclusion isn't bias...



but of course, this is all just my opinion, and that and a quarter will get you a phone call...or is it 35 cents these days


Sure, mine too.

And my guess is that Cutler is the third best qb in the draft. But he's not in the same league as Young or Leinart. At this point he's all potenial and a lot more question marks than those guys.

As to the original argument, please don't think I disagree. Stats are not very useful if you ignore context.. but you can't let overvalue the context either. Just because Cutler gets context points for playing on a bad team doesn't mean that means enough to think he's as good as the elite.

Sometimes a big fish in a small pond, is a pretty small fish in the lake.

cowtowndick
01-30-2006, 02:26 AM
I agree, Vanderbilt stinks. Cutler didn't really make them NOT stink.

And those numbers are great. Must have had some really stinky games early, since those are much better than his season.

if you really think bias invalidates something someone is saying you need to show that they have something personal invested in player a's success or failure. That's bias.

Not loving a quarterback because the facts or your experience led you to that conclusion isn't bias...

And my guess is that Cutler is the third best qb in the draft. But he's not in the same league as Young or Leinart. At this point he's all potenial and a lot more question marks than those guys.

As to the original argument, please don't think I disagree. Stats are not very useful if you ignore context.. but you can't let overvalue the context either. Just because Cutler gets context points for playing on a bad team doesn't mean that means enough to think he's as good as the elite.

Sometimes a big fish in a small pond, is a pretty small fish in the lake.

the only game he really stunk in was the LSU game; he otherwise had some marginal numbers in a few games. i think the reason he garners so much favour is because, as you say, he's the third best qb and that means we have a shot at drafting him, and he has some pretty decent credentials. saban/mueller will do what's best, and i have no trouble trusting them. this is obviously something that can be debated until the cows come home.

the context is interesting though - where would leinhart be ranked if he played for a team other than usc? playing on that offense would make a lot of marginal talents look awfully good. not to say he's marginal, but i'd be willing to bet he benefits from as much undeserved hype as cutler does. that is, if the hype is making cutler a top ten pick (when he should be a second round project), then how much has the hype (of playing on USC, with reggie bush, lendale white and that offensive line) pushed leinhart's stock up? maybe in leinhart's case, hype is the wrong word, but i'm sure you catch my drift. how would leinhart look playing for vanderbilt? we'll never know, but we may get an idea - when leinhart is playing for new orleans or tennessee.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-30-2006, 12:08 PM
the context is interesting though - where would leinhart be ranked if he played for a team other than usc? playing on that offense would make a lot of marginal talents look awfully good. not to say he's marginal, but i'd be willing to bet he benefits from as much undeserved hype as cutler does. that is, if the hype is making cutler a top ten pick (when he should be a second round project), then how much has the hype (of playing on USC, with reggie bush, lendale white and that offensive line) pushed leinhart's stock up? maybe in leinhart's case, hype is the wrong word, but i'm sure you catch my drift. how would leinhart look playing for vanderbilt? we'll never know, but we may get an idea - when leinhart is playing for new orleans or tennessee.
he probably wouldn't be as good on vanderbilt, but they run a non pro-style offense. in cutler's first 2 years, it was pretty much based on the option in fact. i doubt leinart would succeed there. he'd have good passing numbers, but wouldn't throw the ball enough (unless the coaching staff utilized the scheme to his talents of course). however, this past year, vanderbilt had a lot of plays with open sets run out of the shotgun, so i don't see why leinart wouldn't do well there. he'd be just as raw as cutler coming out, though, and cutler would've benefited from good coaches at USC.

fishypete
01-30-2006, 12:36 PM
Yeah I know, if stats were the determining factor for a successful pro career Ty Detmer would have been Dan Marino!

For those that are harping on Cutlers stats look ole' Ty up. He holds a ton of NCAA records and where is he now? Oh Oh Oh and what about Big Andre Ware, his stats were second to none where did that get him. When looking at college player you look at his past, but you have to look at his potential. This is where Cutler gets his value, he has prototypical size, he can toss the ball a long way, he can run if need be, and he has proven that he is a leader on the field. You want to know why people are infatuated, thats why. The guy almost single handedly beat UF, he can flat out play!!!

O.K. Young was the number 1 QB and player in the Nation, coming out of High School...Young was a man playing with boys in High School...Young played behind the center in High School....now...Young was a man playing with boys in college...he made some future number one linebackers and other defenders look silly...he won numerous awards and the National championship...and I believe most would say he won that game, almost single handedly, 467 yds combined offense...when is the last time a QB has done that in a Bowl game of that stature?
He's 6'5" 235 runs a 4.4/40...he can throw as far as anyone in the draft...and if he isn't a proven winner and leader...I don't know what anyone would be looking for in a player.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-30-2006, 01:28 PM
it's impossible to tell how he'll play in a NFL offense. i'd want a QB who's proven he can play in one.

fishypete
01-30-2006, 01:58 PM
it's impossible to tell how he'll play in a NFL offense. i'd want a QB who's proven he can play in one.

What QB has or hasn't proved that? Since none have played in the NFL...there all unknowns..in that point.

BlueFin
01-30-2006, 02:17 PM
You all need to get your heads out of cutlers but and realize you are overhyping him so much. You believe all the rumors and all the reports from the guys, and it's sickening. You look at his TD in the senior bowl, andyou act like its the next amazing play of the century. Not the fact that he was almost picked like 3 plays before, and wa spicked in the endzone beforehand, but because he threw a TD hes amazing. You say that you need to watch all the games, and his stats dont tell me he was amazing. He's a white michael vick, with 2 times less potential.


Im done arguing with people that are convinced cutler is god, and refuse to believe anything else.

Thats good, because you have really embarrassed yourself with this thread, one only has to read thru your posts to realize that you really don't have a clue.

Motion
01-30-2006, 02:24 PM
Thats good, because you have really embarrassed yourself with this thread, one only has to read thru your posts to realize that you really don't have a clue.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

fishypete
01-30-2006, 02:39 PM
Thats good, because you have really embarrassed yourself with this thread, one only has to read thru your posts to realize that you really don't have a clue.

I find it sad that some here believe they have a clue...when they don't have any idea what their doing. It's all opinion..Blue...yours, mine...his...every one.

Saying you don't agree is one thing...but saying you know for sure is just crap...and you know it. I'd look in the mirror and see who's embarrassing themselves...before you throw a stone.

Motion
01-30-2006, 02:45 PM
I find it sad that some here believe they have a clue...when they don't have any idea what their doing. It's all opinion..Blue...yours, mine...his...every one.

Saying you don't agree is one thing...but saying you know for sure is just crap...and you know it. I'd look in the mirror and see who's embarrassing themselves...before you throw a stone.

Well if thats not calling the kettle black.............:eek:

fishypete
01-30-2006, 02:47 PM
Well if thats not calling the kettle black.............:eek:

You look like a kettle yourself....ever think of that?:shakeno:

Motion
01-30-2006, 02:51 PM
You look like a kettle yourself....ever think of that?:shakeno:

That made no sense.

fishypete
01-30-2006, 02:55 PM
That made no sense.

Maybe one day it will. I don't care about the good fight...thats great...but have you read what you write..at times? We all go over the edge...I sometimes have a hard time remembering it's all opinion...and frankly it doesn't matter what we say...when you think of it. The only item that matters to me are the Dolphins...if it wasn't...I wouldn't be here.

Motion
01-30-2006, 03:02 PM
Maybe one day it will. I don't care about the good fight...thats great...but have you read what you write..at times? We all go over the edge...I sometimes have a hard time remembering it's all opinion...and frankly it doesn't matter what we say...when you think of it. The only item that matters to me are the Dolphins...if it wasn't...I wouldn't be here.

And I could easily say the same to you. Its quite obvious you don't care about the "good fight" cause I see you on the short hand of many a debate with plenty of members on these boards, but not once have I ever seen you admit fault. But to extent your right about the opinions, thats pretty much all we have to go on. There are no right or wrong answers for most of the squabbles that go on in here.

fishypete
01-30-2006, 03:07 PM
And I could easily say the same to you. Its quite obvious you don't care about the "good fight" cause I see you on the short hand of many a debate with plenty of members on these boards, but not once have I ever seen you admit fault. But to extent your right about the opinions, thats pretty much all we have to go on. There are no right or wrong answers for most of the squabbles that go on in here.

Hmmm...It's really all opinions...and repeating what you just wrote...no right or wrong answers here...why would I have to admit fault?

Talk about double talk...Geez.

Motion
01-30-2006, 03:08 PM
Hmmm...It's really all opinions...and repeating what you just wrote...no right or wrong answers here...why would I have to admit fault?

Talk about double talk...Geez.

Believe it or not some discussions are actually based on facts.

fishypete
01-30-2006, 03:11 PM
Believe it or not some discussions are actually based on facts.

I know...I post a few of them. Video's also are great...like I said...seeing is believing.:wink:

BlueFin
01-30-2006, 03:38 PM
I find it sad that some here believe they have a clue...when they don't have any idea what their doing. It's all opinion..Blue...yours, mine...his...every one.

Saying you don't agree is one thing...but saying you know for sure is just crap...and you know it. I'd look in the mirror and see who's embarrassing themselves...before you throw a stone.

Pete, you are the King of embarrassing yourself on this board.

Zach a safety? Remember that?

Here is an example of something you call an opinion, which is absolute fact:

Every scout and GM in the NFL will tell you they put much much more weight on the week of practice and the interviews Jay Cutler had than they do the game itself.

Yet you say that is not true?

fishypete
01-30-2006, 03:48 PM
Pete, you are the King of embarrassing yourself on this board.

Zach a safety? Remember that?

Here is an example of something you call an opinion, which is absolute fact:

Every scout and GM in the NFL will tell you they put much much more weight on the week of practice and the interviews Jay Cutler had than they do the game itself.

Yet you say that is not true?

Yea..it was slow week....If your going to state what a person say's blue...at least get it correct....what I said was the practices have there place...but so do the games...if you don't think so...ask Rivers. If you take all the draft people and ask them if Cutler had a great practice...I'll bet you'll find it was just average. Did he WOW them Blue...was he off the charts? NOPE.
Now add the game...way below average...unless you like 6 for 19...do you?
Add that fact that the news is he had the smallest hands at the senior Bowl for a QB...Does that help him Blue? I'll repeat what a smarter person than us said about interviews...don't get excited about them...about what team has them...their just doing their jobs. He's right isn't he Blue? It is their jobs to interview players...and especially when they aren't restricted like the combine..it makes sense to interview as many as you can...it's call covering your bases.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
01-30-2006, 04:30 PM
i know jon gruden liked what he saw in cadillac williams in practice, and didn't even want to see him in the game (sat him after only a few carries in fact), and he drafted him.

miami_fins13
01-30-2006, 04:58 PM
another touching moment brought to you by finheaven

Nicky Napoleon
01-30-2006, 08:41 PM
People that can "almost win" are worth exactly the same as people that can "totally lose". :wink:


OK, this makes absolutely no sense! The fact that a VANDERBILT COMMODORS team with far inferior talent was even close to beating the Gators tells me that he does make those around him better! He then beat the Vols, he plays in one of the toughest conferences in all of football and led a very.... lets be honest bad team to an almost .500 record.

Nicky Napoleon
01-30-2006, 08:45 PM
O.K. Young was the number 1 QB and player in the Nation, coming out of High School...Young was a man playing with boys in High School...Young played behind the center in High School....now...Young was a man playing with boys in college...he made some future number one linebackers and other defenders look silly...he won numerous awards and the National championship...and I believe most would say he won that game, almost single handedly, 467 yds combined offense...when is the last time a QB has done that in a Bowl game of that stature?
He's 6'5" 235 runs a 4.4/40...he can throw as far as anyone in the draft...and if he isn't a proven winner and leader...I don't know what anyone would be looking for in a player.



What did my post have to do with any of this?

finfan54
01-30-2006, 10:31 PM
My feeling on Cutler is that you eventually could develope whitehurst, JACOBS, or Croyle with our coaching staff to be just as good if not better.

Jay Cutler is a little cocky right now cus his head has been blown up by the media and scouts and guys like Mike mayock. I think he has been sold to the public a little overboard because all the fans already built him up before hand.

Im tellin ya'll right now. Saban will not reach for Cutler even at 16. He wants someone like the Jets to get him so Saban can take Greenway to beat Cutler for the next 5-10 years. Saban will have guys like Huff and Greenway and a few others rated high and he will be hoping one of those guys falls to us to get the value. That is what he wants.

nopony
01-30-2006, 10:35 PM
My feeling on Cutler is that you eventually could develope whitehurst, JACOBS, or Croyle with our coaching staff to be just as good if not better.

Jay Cutler is a little cocky right now cus his head has been blown up by the media and scouts and guys like Mike mayock. I think he has been sold to the public a little overboard because all the fans already built him up before hand.

Im tellin ya'll right now. Saban will not reach for Cutler even at 16. He wants someone like the Jets to get him so Saban can take Greenway to beat Cutler for the next 5-10 years. Saban will have guys like Huff and Greenway and a few others rated high and he will be hoping one of those guys falls to us to get the value. That is what he wants.

That's exactly how I see it.

- Young/Leinart
.
.
.
.
.
-Cutler/Croyle/Whitehurst/Jacobs

fishypete
01-30-2006, 11:41 PM
OK, this makes absolutely no sense! The fact that a VANDERBILT COMMODORS team with far inferior talent was even close to beating the Gators tells me that he does make those around him better! He then beat the Vols, he plays in one of the toughest conferences in all of football and led a very.... lets be honest bad team to an almost .500 record.

Tenn stunk this year...big deal...and maybe the Gators aren't that good a team.

Motion
01-30-2006, 11:47 PM
Tenn stunk this year...big deal...and maybe the Gators aren't that good a team.

:D Top 10 defense all year long.

BlueFin
01-31-2006, 08:14 AM
:D Top 10 defense all year long.

Don't confuse Pete with facts...................:sidelol: