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Dredd1050
02-27-2006, 10:37 AM
First he scored a 12, then he re-took it and scored a 16.

It is a HUGE red flag when a QB scores in the teens. Remember what this test is. I've taken it before. The first question on my copy was "what is the 9th month of the year?".

Thoughts?

Motion
02-27-2006, 10:38 AM
link?

PhinstiGator
02-27-2006, 11:02 AM
... The first question on my copy was "what is the 9th month of the year?".

Thoughts?
September

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:08 AM
The NFL has had its representatives say that the number reported on his first test was innacurate and shouldnt be taken seriously

John Clayton reports he retook it and scored a 16, and plans on taking it again

A score in the teens doesnt throw a red flag seeing as Marino scored a 14 or 16 *forget which*

By the way, the wonderlic test gets progressivly harder, if all questions were all that easy then everyone would score a 50

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 11:10 AM
September
congrats, you're now as smart as vince young. ;)

Motion
02-27-2006, 11:12 AM
By the way, the wonderlic test gets progressivly harder, if all questions were all that easy then everyone would score a 50

Whats that have to do with him scoring so low? Its not like they gave him a harder one than everybody else.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:13 AM
Whats that have to do with him scoring so low?

He didnt score low

The NFL has come out and said that the reports are false, that the representative has seen the score and the reports are incorrect

16 isnt all that bad, he is expected to retake it after studying some and score in the 20's

Dredd1050
02-27-2006, 11:16 AM
Colin Cowherd is reeling off the scores of other QBs. Marino is the ONLY QB he named that scored under a 20 (15) that had great success.

Others were:

Akili Smith-15
David Klingler-15
Dante-16
Heath Shuler-14

Motion
02-27-2006, 11:18 AM
Anyone know the rules regarding the Wonderlic test? Seems odd they would let someone take it, then study more and retake it after seeing the questions.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:21 AM
I believe you can take it three times before the draft or it might be 3 times during the combine

Its not like you get months to study or anything


http://www.sportsgoons.com/volume3/Vol3_Iss8/2005_wonderlic_test.htm

Here is a 'modified' version of the test :lol:

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 11:22 AM
Anyone know the rules regarding the Wonderlic test? Seems odd they would let someone take it, then study more and retake it after seeing the questions.
what's worse is that young got a 12 the first time and only improved to a 16 the second time (according to the OP).

CrunchTime
02-27-2006, 11:29 AM
A retest would indicate that VY first score was low.

There is a precedent for retests.Lossman got a 22 after intially getting a 14 on his first test.

IMO retests makes the Wonderlich testing system lose its credibility.It doesnt mean anything when certain players have a chance to study the answers.

Kucha
02-27-2006, 11:29 AM
He didnt score low

The NFL has come out and said that the reports are false, that the representative has seen the score and the reports are incorrect

16 isnt all that bad, he is expected to retake it after studying some and score in the 20's

If he keeps taking it over and over again, his scores will rise but those results will also provide a false result. You aren't supposed to study for those tests! IMO, they are similar to an IQ test. If you had info on IQ tests and prepared for it, then your ability to process information will not be accurately portrayed.

A 6 would have put him in the borderline-intellegence range between low-average and Forrest Gump deficient type...and I have to agree that I'm shocked by the news...but he shouldn't take it a third or even a fourth time because it will have no meaning whatsoever. His score of 16 is so-so but not the end of the world and if this was the result of a supervised do-over, we should just live with it.

Contrary to what you said in your other posts, this is an important test. The NFL is much faster than the college ranks, and he would have to learn another playbook which would probably be more complicated than the one he studied in Texas. Just because you are (obviously) a big fan of him should not blind you to the possibility that he may not become the QB that he is being hyped to be.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:34 AM
If he keeps taking it over and over again, his scores will rise but those results will also provide a false result. You aren't supposed to study for those tests! IMO, they are similar to an IQ test. If you had info on IQ tests and prepared for it, then your ability to process information will not be accurately portrayed.

A 16 is so-so but not the end of the world. A 6 would could put him in the borderline-mental ******ation range...and I have to agree that I'm shocked by that news...If he takes it again, it will have no meaning whatsoever.

Contrary to what you said in your other posts, this is an important test. The NFL is much faster than the college ranks, and he would have to learn another playbook which would probably be more complicated than the one he studied in Texas. Just because you are (obviously) a big fan of him should not blind you to the possibility that he may not become the QB that he is being hyped to be.

Actually every agent has copies of the test and when you sign on with one they generally give you one to study so yes you are supposed to

If Jimmy has 21 cents of rope, and rope is a foot long, and Jimmy spent 3 dollars about how much rope did Jimmy buy?

Thats the type of questions on there, the questions should look like this

Randy Moss runs a 10 yard out pattern, Jerry Porter runs a 15 yard post, the defense is in a nickle formation and both safteys blitz, who do you throw to

Ive never said he is sure fire, ive just said people need to stop talking like he already failed

Kucha
02-27-2006, 11:41 AM
Actually every agent has copies of the test and when you sign on with one they generally give you one to study so yes you are supposed to

If Jimmy has 21 cents of rope, and rope is a foot long, and Jimmy spent 3 dollars about how much rope did Jimmy buy?

Thats the type of questions on there, the questions should look like this

Randy Moss runs a 10 yard out pattern, Jerry Porter runs a 15 yard post, the defense is in a nickle formation and both safteys blitz, who do you throw to

Ive never said he is sure fire, ive just said people need to stop talking like he already failed

I agree with you that "people should stop talking like he already failed" but I disagree with you that he should take it again and again. If he scored a 16 the second time around, we should just live with it and that's it. That's not such an awful score. Like you said earlier, Marino didn't thrill people with his test results.

I didn't know that the test was given out to agents which is a shame because a test like that should not be something that you should study and prepare for. Anyway, knowing whom to throw to in a certain situation is important but not at the heart of what should be looked for in such a test. Your ability to think quickly in a usual and unusual circumstance should be at the base of a test like this and the timer is an important part of it...and only qualified professionals like psychologists should create tests like that...maybe he was hung over when he took it. Who knows...but I do agree with PFT that the NFL should not try circumvent their own processes in order to pacify a college coach for political reasons.

Whatever happened, this much is obvious. Vince Young got a second chance whereas most other players would not. He just needs to live with the second score (if he took it a second time) and move on. If he blew it the first time because he didn't take it seriously, or was hung over, or whatever, then that was his (costly?) decision.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 11:45 AM
Actually every agent has copies of the test and when you sign on with one they generally give you one to study so yes you are supposed to

If Jimmy has 21 cents of rope, and rope is a foot long, and Jimmy spent 3 dollars about how much rope did Jimmy buy?

Thats the type of questions on there, the questions should look like this

Randy Moss runs a 10 yard out pattern, Jerry Porter runs a 15 yard post, the defense is in a nickle formation and both safteys blitz, who do you throw to

Ive never said he is sure fire, ive just said people need to stop talking like he already failed

I'm really getting tired of explaining this to you.

A low Wonderlic score indicates that the tested individual has limited capacity for processing information, using logic to solve problems, and learning. This means that while Vince Young has a boatload of physical talent, he might not be very adept at learning and adjusting to the NFL.

Basic math is a skill every person should have. Your question was horribly butchered but it should read something like "If rope costs 10 cents a foot and Bob has $.60 to spend, how much rope can he buy?" (What you wrote made little sense, other than Jimmy has 21 cents of rope which he apparently paid $3 for. So, Jimmy's not a very good businessman.)

Your question on football is not answerable, as you might know. Where are the safeties lined up? Are they blitzing from the sides or are they coming through gaps in the line? Where is the nickelback lined up? Is Moss or Porter covered well? Is either double-covered? Where are your running backs? Where are your tight ends?

If the Wonderlic didn't matter, they wouldn't use it. The questions get progressively harder - this just means it gets progressively more difficult to go from a 30 to a 40. Going from a 6 (or 12, or whatever) reportedly to 16 now is still pretty bad. A 16 won't hurt him that badly. The fact remains that a lot of quarterbacks with low scores have problems with decision making.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:45 AM
I agree with you that "people should stop talking like he already failed" but I disagree with you that he should take it again and again. If he scored a 16 the second time around, we should just live with it and that's it. That's not such an awful score. Like you said earlier, Marino didn't thrill people with his test results.

I didn't know that the test was given out to agents which is a shame because a test like that should not be something that you should study and prepare for. Anyway, knowing whom to throw to in a certain situation should only be part of such a test. Your ability to think quickly should be at the base of a test like this and the timer is an part of it. maybe he was hung over when he took it. Who knows...but I do agree with PFT that the NFL should not try circumvent their own processes in order to pacify a college coach for political reasons.

Well the test changes year to year

Here is an example

The S.A.T tests change year to year, but past tests are let out and available to study from, the wonderlic is basically the same, agents have different variations from years past, they dont have the ecact test

You can take it three times, and I agree you shouldnt take it over and over basically If a guy takes it 3 times, I would take the highest score and the lowest score and average it out.

But you can also think of it this way - The test is a gauge on how well a guy grasps certain info, so if you do poorly once, then study and do better, it shows you have the ability to study and remember things, like you would a playbook

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm really getting tired of explaining this to you.

A low Wonderlic score indicates that the tested individual has limited capacity for processing information, using logic to solve problems, and learning. This means that while Vince Young has a boatload of physical talent, he might not be very adept at learning and adjusting to the NFL.

Basic math is a skill every person should have. Your question was horribly butchered but it should read something like "If rope costs 10 cents a foot and Bob has $.60 to spend, how much rope can he buy?" (What you wrote made little sense, other than Jimmy has 21 cents of rope which he apparently paid $3 for. So, Jimmy's not a very good businessman.)

Your question on football is not answerable, as you might know. Where are the safeties lined up? Are they blitzing from the sides or are they coming through gaps in the line? Where is the nickelback lined up? Is Moss or Porter covered well? Is either double-covered? Where are your running backs? Where are your tight ends?

If the Wonderlic didn't matter, they wouldn't use it. The questions get progressively harder - this just means it gets progressively more difficult to go from a 30 to a 40. Going from a 6 (or 12, or whatever) reportedly to 16 now is still pretty bad. A 16 won't hurt him that badly. The fact remains that a lot of quarterbacks with low scores have problems with decision making.

1- The questions I gave were just a basic example, or course they could be written better and there are other things that need to be put in it

2- The test getting progressivly harder means in thoery question 2 should be a little harder than question 1, question 3 should be harder than 2 and so forth im assuming you know that

3- They just had the creator of the wonderlic test on cold pizza and he basically said it doesnt mean much other than how well you grasp certain concepts and while its more important in QB's he doesnt know how important it actually is overall in the NFL

4- If you study and get a better score, that shows you can learn and get better if you apply yourself, So basically that means if he wants to learn a playbook he can, a 16 isnt THAT bad

Kucha
02-27-2006, 11:55 AM
Well the test changes year to year

Here is an example

The S.A.T tests change year to year, but past tests are let out and available to study from, the wonderlic is basically the same, agents have different variations from years past, they dont have the ecact test

You can take it three times, and I agree you shouldnt take it over and over basically If a guy takes it 3 times, I would take the highest score and the lowest score and average it out.

But you can also think of it this way - The test is a gauge on how well a guy grasps certain info, so if you do poorly once, then study and do better, it shows you have the ability to study and remember things, like you would a playbook

Yep, I agree with you there re: the SAT scores...but I honestly think that the Wonerlick has to be closer to an IQ test than an SAT due to the reasons I mentioned above (although the SAT is a good tool). This is why I'm opposed to letting Young take it a third or fourth time...a psychologist will tell you that IQ test results can rise if you take it repeatedly over a short period of time...but these rising results will be inaccurate and that is why they use other tools (at times) other than IQ tests to measure intelligence.

Maybe that's what Young's agent and college coach need to do. Hire an independent psychologist and have that psychologist administer an IQ and Rorschac (sp??) test on him. They don't have to tell anyone. He takes the test and if he scores well, then the agent can share the test results with teams. If he does poorly, no one has to know that he took these tests.

Your idea about averaging out two scores isn't bad but I don't think that an average of 11 would help Young. :)

Motion
02-27-2006, 11:56 AM
4- If you study and get a better score, that shows you can learn and get better if you apply yourself, So basically that means if he wants to learn a playbook he can, a 16 isnt THAT bad

You shouldn't have to take it a second time to "apply" yourself. Everyone should take it once, period.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 11:57 AM
2- The test getting progressivly harder means in thoery question 2 should be a little harder than question 1, question 3 should be harder than 2 and so forth im assuming you know that

There are 50 questions. If the average among all people of all education levels is 20, then it should be expected that as an above-average educated person with three years of college you should score higher than average. The questions don't get impossibly difficult beyond 6. The "hard" questions are not unsolvable by any means.


- They just had the creator of the wonderlic test on cold pizza and he basically said it doesnt mean much other than how well you grasp certain concepts and while its more important in QB's he doesnt know how important it actually is overall in the NFL

He didn't create the test for the NFL. Of course he doesn't know how important it is. The fact is there is a positive correlation between scores and performance. While being smart isn't a substitute for being talented, it does matter.


4- If you study and get a better score, that shows you can learn and get better if you apply yourself, So basically that means if he wants to learn a playbook he can, a 16 isnt THAT bad

A 16 actually is that bad. It's bad regardless of what position you play - even if it requires next to no thought, like a lineman. Studying on these scores is not supposed to help much. These tests aren't designed that way. Vince Young was improving in college as he was coached less. That doesn't quite cut it in the NFL, as Michael Vick might tell you.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 11:59 AM
You shouldn't have to take it a second time to "apply" yourself. Everyone should take it once, period.

But thats not the rule, guys take it more than once all the time

Its possible he HASNT been studying for a long time and his math skills are off and wasnt ready for the test, but if he brushed up on it and does better it shows he CAN learn

Kucha
02-27-2006, 12:01 PM
Off topic - Can someone please tell me who is Vince Young's agent?

Motion
02-27-2006, 12:01 PM
But thats not the rule, guys take it more than once all the time

Its possible he HASNT been studying for a long time and his math skills are off and wasnt ready for the test, but if he brushed up on it and does better it shows he CAN learn

Your completely missing the point. This is like an interview for a big job, you shouldn't get "practice rounds". If he hasn't been studying, that says even more about him. They should give every player the same test once. Its called first impression. Anyone should be able to ace a test that they've already seen the questions for.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:02 PM
There are 50 questions. If the average among all people of all education levels is 20, then it should be expected that as an above-average educated person with three years of college you should score higher than average. The questions don't get impossibly difficult beyond 6. The "hard" questions are not unsolvable by any means.



He didn't create the test for the NFL. Of course he doesn't know how important it is. The fact is there is a positive correlation between scores and performance. While being smart isn't a substitute for being talented, it does matter.



A 16 actually is that bad. It's bad regardless of what position you play - even if it requires next to no thought, like a lineman. Studying on these scores is not supposed to help much. These tests aren't designed that way. Vince Young was improving in college as he was coached less. That doesn't quite cut it in the NFL, as Michael Vick might tell you.

1- He didnt score a 6 the first time he scored a 12, Marino scored a 14

2- Smarts DO matter, but not book smarts, its football smarts that count

3- Sean Taylor scored a 10, Frank Gore scored a 3, Marino a 14

The offensive line is one of the most complictated positions on the field btw, remembering blocking assignments for everyone on every play, recognizing and picking up blitzers, and so on

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:03 PM
But thats not the rule, guys take it more than once all the time

Its possible he HASNT been studying for a long time and his math skills are off and wasnt ready for the test, but if he brushed up on it and does better it shows he CAN learn

His math skills are off? It's obvious at this point that you're going to defend him regardless of what happens. This isn't at all the kind of thing you should be "off" on. These are basic skills. You don't forget them. They aren't at all memorization questions. Either you have the capability to do it or you don't.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:03 PM
Your completely missing the point. This is like an interview for a big job, you shouldn't get "practice rounds". They should give every player the same test once. Its called first impression. Anyone should be able to ace a test that they've already seen the questions for.

There are different versions of it I believe, so you get a different test every time, while the questions are basically the same I imagine they are still different

I guess no-one should be able to study for the SAT, or retake any test they fail huh?

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:06 PM
1- He didnt score a 6 the first time he scored a 12, Marino scored a 14

2- Smarts DO matter, but not book smarts, its football smarts that count

3- Sean Taylor scored a 10, Frank Gore scored a 3, Marino a 14

The offensive line is one of the most complictated positions on the field btw, remembering blocking assignments for everyone on every play, recognizing and picking up blitzers, and so on

12, 14, and 16 are all bad scores. McNabb and Marino are the two lone exceptions. Nearly all of the quarterbacks in NFL history who have had problems with decision making have had low Wonderlic scores.

The Wonderlic test does not measure "book smarts." It measures cognitive ability. I've already explained this.

Frank Gore has proved nothing. Running back is also not that critical of a position as far as intelligence goes. Sean Taylor has already been in trouble multiple times, so don't cite him as a paragon of virtue or intelligence.

Offensive line is not a skill position.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:06 PM
His math skills are off? It's obvious at this point that you're going to defend him regardless of what happens. This isn't at all the kind of thing you should be "off" on. These are basic skills. You don't forget them. They aren't at all memorization questions. Either you have the capability to do it or you don't.

You do forget math skills, go ask a 40 year old who hasnt been in school a while to do algebra and they will be off, or ask them to divide a fraction

Just because you arent used to doing it doesnt mean you cant, obviously if you can study and improve your score then you CAN improve

I defend him because every time ive doubted him at all he has proved me wrong, and ive seen him talk and the way he acts and the man isnt stupid

Motion
02-27-2006, 12:06 PM
There are different versions of it I believe, so you get a different test every time, while the questions are basically the same I imagine they are still different

I guess no-one should be able to study for the SAT, or retake any test they fail huh?

Don't put words in my mouth junior. I never said anything about not being able to study. I said he should have studied in the first place! If they fail that means they didn't prepare themselves well enough in the first place.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:07 PM
There are different versions of it I believe, so you get a different test every time, while the questions are basically the same I imagine they are still different

I guess no-one should be able to study for the SAT, or retake any test they fail huh?

Retaking doesn't help. Those people who study for the SAT test improve their scores only slightly. These tests have been designed by people for this reason - so that studying and practicing does not help much if at all. I took the SAT test three times, and the first time was the highest. The second and third times were identical in scoring.

Motion
02-27-2006, 12:08 PM
You do forget math skills, go ask a 40 year old who hasnt been in school a while to do algebra and they will be off, or ask them to divide a fraction


Vince Young isn't 40! He just completed his 3rd year of college, if his memory span is that short he's got serious issues!

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:09 PM
You do forget math skills, go ask a 40 year old who hasnt been in school a while to do algebra and they will be off, or ask them to divide a fraction

Just because you arent used to doing it doesnt mean you cant, obviously if you can study and improve your score then you CAN improve

I defend him because every time ive doubted him at all he has proved me wrong, and ive seen him talk and the way he acts and the man isnt stupid

There is no algebra on the Wonderlic test. There is no division of fractions, or something like that. While neither of those is particularly difficult, only the more advanced questions require complicated division.

As in, it's unlikely there were more complicated questions than 20x5=?? in Vince Young's vaunted 16.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:09 PM
12, 14, and 16 are all bad scores. McNabb and Marino are the two lone exceptions. Nearly all of the quarterbacks in NFL history who have had problems with decision making have had low Wonderlic scores.

The Wonderlic test does not measure "book smarts." It measures cognitive ability. I've already explained this.

Frank Gore has proved nothing. Running back is also not that critical of a position as far as intelligence goes. Sean Taylor has already been in trouble multiple times, so don't cite him as a paragon of virtue or intelligence.

Offensive line is not a skill position.


Running Backs dont need to be smart, but they need to know where to run, and which way the lineman are blocking every play, if the guard is pulling and so on, Gore is Dyslexic and still learned a playbook

Saftey is also one of the most complicated positions in the game, and no-one will ever call his play stupid.


Yes it is, are you saying you need no skill to play it? You have obviously never played orginized football to be saying that

Dredd1050
02-27-2006, 12:10 PM
I was a director for a very well know East coast proprietary college and we used the Wonderlick as our entrance exam. I took the test and skipped every math question on purpose and still was able to score a 45.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:11 PM
There is no algebra on the Wonderlic test. There is no division of fractions, or something like that. While neither of those is particularly difficult, only the more advanced questions require complicated division.

As in, it's unlikely there were more complicated questions than 20x5=?? in Vince Young's vaunted 16.

Im not saying there was algebra on it just that people do forget math skills

If every question was that easy then everyone would ace it

Motion
02-27-2006, 12:11 PM
Yes it is, are you saying you need no skill to play it? You have obviously never played orginized football to be saying that

No its not. In the NFL, "skill posistion" players are QB,RB,TE, and WR. Your wrong, again.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:12 PM
No its not. In the NFL, "skill posistion" players are QB,RB,TE, and WR. Your wrong, again.

Yes thats what skill positions are defined as I wasnt disputing thats what people call skill positions, but its totally untrue, offensive lineman are every bit as skilled as any other position but in different things

besides skill had nothing to do with his arguement, it was smarts

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Running Backs dont need to be smart, but they need to know where to run, and which way the lineman are blocking every play, if the guard is pulling and so on, Gore is Dyslexic and still learned a playbook

Saftey is also one of the most complicated positions in the game, and no-one will ever call his play stupid.


Yes it is, are you saying you need no skill to play it? You have obviously never played orginized football to be saying that
I have heard that Frank Gore has a learning disability. Running backs actually don't need to know very much. They are supposed to run a certain way. They don't need to know where the lineman are blocking, because that's supposed to be done. Running basically works like this:

1) Run the designed play towards the specified gap.
2) If no such gap exists, do something else.

Running backs don't make reads - at least not like a quarterback. "Bouncing it outside" is about as complicated as it gets for a running back. While this is an oversimplification, you are grossly overstating the need for intelligence in a running back.

Sean Taylor has had significant off-field problems. This is what I was referring to. Daunte Culpepper has had success on the field, but was recently involved in the boat scandal. Smarter players likely wouldn't do that. He scored low on the test as well.

Again, offensive line is not a skill position.

Kucha
02-27-2006, 12:24 PM
12, 14, and 16 are all bad scores. McNabb and Marino are the two lone exceptions. Nearly all of the quarterbacks in NFL history who have had problems with decision making have had low Wonderlic scores.

The Wonderlic test does not measure "book smarts." It measures cognitive ability. I've already explained this.

Frank Gore has proved nothing. Running back is also not that critical of a position as far as intelligence goes. Sean Taylor has already been in trouble multiple times, so don't cite him as a paragon of virtue or intelligence.

Offensive line is not a skill position.

FYI - Frank Gore was diagnosed with a Learning Disability as a teenager. Therefore, a score of 3 seems realisitic and it shows that the wonderlick has (at least) some validity.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:28 PM
I have heard that Frank Gore has a learning disability. Running backs actually don't need to know very much. They are supposed to run a certain way. They don't need to know where the lineman are blocking, because that's supposed to be done. Running basically works like this:

1) Run the designed play towards the specified gap.
2) If no such gap exists, do something else.

Running backs don't make reads - at least not like a quarterback. "Bouncing it outside" is about as complicated as it gets for a running back. While this is an oversimplification, you are grossly overstating the need for intelligence in a running back.

Sean Taylor has had significant off-field problems. This is what I was referring to. Daunte Culpepper has had success on the field, but was recently involved in the boat scandal. Smarter players likely wouldn't do that. He scored low on the test as well.

Again, offensive line is not a skill position.

Vince Young is not the type to get into off the field trouble anyway so you can cross that off the list.


Offensive Line is not defined as a skill position, but it takes just as much athleticism as any other position

Again it also takes MORE smarts to play O-line than almost any other position

Kucha
02-27-2006, 12:30 PM
Vince Young is not the type to get into off the field trouble anyway so you can cross that off the list.


Offensive Line is not defined as a skill position, but it takes just as much athleticism as any other position

Again it also takes MORE smarts to play O-line than almost any other position

O-Line men regularly score lower than other positions.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:31 PM
Vince Young is not the type to get into off the field trouble anyway so you can cross that off the list.

Better go and tell all the potentially interested GMs this, because they'll be happy to know that somebody is clairvoyant.


Offensive Line is not defined as a skill position, but it takes just as much athleticism as any other position. Are you kidding me? Offensive linemen require brute strength and size more than anything else. Athleticism barely even measures into it. Have you ever seen a lineman run the ball? You're telling me they're athletic?


Again it also takes MORE smarts to play O-line than almost any other position

Do you have any evidence to back up this ridiculous assertion? Tell me what an offensive lineman needs to do that requires considerable thought. I can assure most people would give you a one-word description of an offensive lineman's job that's suprisingly comprehensive. Guess what it is?

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:33 PM
O-Line men regularly score lower than other positions.

Actually, three of the top four scores - average by position - are the offensive linemen.

Tackles average a 26, centers a 25, quarterbacks a 24, and guards a 23.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 12:35 PM
Better go and tell all the potentially interested GMs this, because they'll be happy to know that somebody is clairvoyant.

Are you kidding me? Offensive linemen require brute strength and size more than anything else. Athleticism barely even measures into it. Have you ever seen a lineman run the ball? You're telling me they're athletic?



Do you have any evidence to back up this ridiculous assertion? Tell me what an offensive lineman needs to do that requires considerable thought. I can assure most people would give you a one-word description of an offensive lineman's job that's suprisingly comprehensive. Guess what it is?

1- He isnt a bad kid thats how I know that, he has just as much potential to do bad as Matt leinart does

2- Offensive lineman need to be able to move around, have great footwork, use their arms correctly, can you tell me Blocking guys like Jason Taylor takes brute strength alone?

3- Oh i dont know, memorize the playbook, recognize the blitz, not only know who their responsiblity is, but everyone elses as well, this applies even more for inside linemen

There is no position on the field where you dont need to be athletic

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 12:40 PM
offensive linemen are the smartest players on the field.

CrunchTime
02-27-2006, 12:57 PM
offensive linemen are the smartest players on the field.

Centers usually score the highest.Guards are not much better than the Medium.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:58 PM
1- He isnt a bad kid thats how I know that, he has just as much potential to do bad as Matt leinart does

You know nothing about Vince Young. He might seem like a "good kid" but the fact is neither you nor anybody else really knows how he's going to conduct himself. Leinart has nothing to do with this. Nobody suggested anything like "Leinart is a better kid, so let's draft him." You're correct in that they have both the potential to do bad. Nobody knows.


2- Offensive lineman need to be able to move around, have great footwork, use their arms correctly, can you tell me Blocking guys like Jason Taylor takes brute strength alone?

All of this is true. But can you tell me how all of this requires intelligence? Size, strength and technique are not related - even indirectly - to intelligence.


3- Oh i dont know, memorize the playbook, recognize the blitz, not only know who their responsiblity is, but everyone elses as well, this applies even more for inside linemen

Memorize the playbook? Offensive linemen generally have two jobs: run blocking and pass blocking. Recognizing the blitz is the job of other guys and generally not the linemen. A running back or tight end might need to pick that up. A linemen can't shed his assignment for a blitzer - his job is to block somebody. That's all there is to it. The right tackle does not at all need to know who somebody else's assignment is. Their assignments depend on where people line up, and where people line up is variable.


There is no position on the field where you dont need to be athletic

While this is true, offensive linemen by far are the least athletic.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 12:58 PM
offensive linemen are the smartest players on the field.
Do you have a reason for this, or is this simply an unfounded one-line grunt?

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 01:01 PM
Do you have a reason for this, or this simply an unfounded one-line grunt?
unfounded? it's pretty common knowledge that there's more thinking and technique involved with the o-line than any other position (excluding QB obviously). i rarely grunt.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 01:02 PM
unfounded? it's pretty common knowledge that there's more thinking and technique involved with the o-line than any other position (excluding QB obviously). i rarely grunt.

Please tell me what type of thinking is involved with the offensive line.

LIQUID24
02-27-2006, 01:03 PM
Please tell me what type of thinking is involved with the offensive line.
Recognizing blitzes and stunts... stuff like that. O-linemen are generally very smart.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 01:08 PM
Recognizing blitzes and stunts... stuff like that. O-linemen are generally very smart.

That's reflex, not intelligence. They block somebody. Linemen, on pass blocking, generally have very little space to protect. It's called a line because they protect. They block whoever is in front of them, and they aren't supposed to get very far out of position. Blitzes usually do not affect the offensive line. That almost always requires that additional rushers - in addition the defensive line - be brought in. This means that the offensive linemen should already be blocking somebody. Unless they can block two guys at once, it doesn't matter.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 01:08 PM
Please tell me what type of thinking is involved with the offensive line.
are you really that ignorant to the game of football? i'm a girl and it seems i know more than you. for shame...

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 01:10 PM
are you really that ignorant to the game of football? i'm a girl and it seems i know more than you. for shame...

I asked you for what type of thinking is involved. Calling me ignorant does not illustrate how offensive linemen need to be intelligent.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 01:20 PM
I asked you for what type of thinking is involved. Calling me ignorant does not illustrate how offensive linemen need to be intelligent.
you will find more 7th round picks and undrafted free agents starting on the o-line than in any other position. the reason is simple; coming out of college they didn't have prototypical size, or they didn't have the proper technique or whatever. however they made it starting in the league because of their intelligence. they have to make decisions on the fly based on what the defense is showing, and all 5 have to be in sync with this to work. the center will often call out assignments, and like with the colts, the QB can get extremely involved. and the technique is unreal. you can't just put a big guy in there and expect him to block. if you did that, there'd be 20 sacks a game. most coaches in the NFL will tell you it's the most technique-demanding position. there's more smarts involved than brute strength, which is why someone like tony mandarich was a bust.

dolphan117
02-27-2006, 01:28 PM
The latest buzz about Texas quarterback Vince Young at the NFL Scouting Combine: his score on the 50-question Wonderlic Test. It was reported to NFL general managers Saturday that Young correctly answered just six of the 50 questions on the 12-minute exam designed to test logic and cognitive ability. Then came reports Sunday that Young was allowed to retake the test and that he scored a more respectable 16.
-- Austin American-Statesman

In 1999, Donovan McNabb scored 12 on the Wonderlic Test. Akili Smith scored 15, Daunte Culpepper scored both a 15 and a 21. The year before, Charlie Batch had a 12 and a 15 and Aaron Brooks scored 17.
-- Milwaukee Journal SentinelIf this turns out to be thrue Donovan and Culpepper both scored lower than Young. A 16 isnt great but its not that bad.

Edit-I also find if very funny that Brooks scored higher McNabb and Culpepper. (at least on his first try.)

Alex44
02-27-2006, 01:31 PM
are you really that ignorant to the game of football? i'm a girl and it seems i know more than you. for shame...

By the way

We dont agree a lot, but any girl who goes away from the typical barbie doll type thing and gets into sports, breaks the typical 'Boys play sports, guys play with barbie dolls' steriotype is cool by me


Anyway back to the subject

One year I played QB for the city before high school, our offensive line was pretty big, and pretty strong, but they had 0 technique, our coach taught just basic pass blocking and run blocking, never taught them how to pick up a blitz, or anything like that, and I can truthfully say I had never been hit that much so hard so often in my life, or ran that much with the ball from the QB position, if I wasnt fast it would have been even worse

finfan54
02-27-2006, 01:46 PM
Vince just scored another 6 points while you guys were arguing.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-27-2006, 02:20 PM
By the way

We dont agree a lot, but any girl who goes away from the typical barbie doll type thing and gets into sports, breaks the typical 'Boys play sports, guys play with barbie dolls' steriotype is cool by me

thanks :)


One year I played QB for the city before high school, our offensive line was pretty big, and pretty strong, but they had 0 technique, our coach taught just basic pass blocking and run blocking, never taught them how to pick up a blitz, or anything like that, and I can truthfully say I had never been hit that much so hard so often in my life, or ran that much with the ball from the QB position, if I wasnt fast it would have been even worse
yes. this myth that o-linemen just react to what the defensive linemen do is very unfounded. there's a lot that goes into. and that's just pass-blocking.

Mile High Fin
02-27-2006, 02:34 PM
thanks :)


yes. this myth that o-linemen just react to what the defensive linemen do is very unfounded. there's a lot that goes into. and that's just pass-blocking.


You're correct...

I remember reading somewhere (somewhat recently) that the Center knows the playbook/calls/audibles/etc better than anyone on the field (other than QB). :eek:

There's a lot of thinking that O-Linemen do.....calling assignments, recognizing blitzes, stunts, audibles, etc. Their assignments can change with each of these things.....
If they have a blown assignment (block the wrong guy on audible or stunt/fail to recognize blitz/etc), the play is usually a bust...

Granted, Center is more cerebral than the Guards & Tackles, but they need to know a lot too....

Mile High Fin
02-27-2006, 02:39 PM
I asked you for what type of thinking is involved. Calling me ignorant does not illustrate how offensive linemen need to be intelligent.

I agree with basically everything you're saying about the Wonderlic test and results/assessment...

But you're incorrect about O-Linemen not needing "smarts".
Yes, there's always exceptions, and of course strength/size is a BIG factor, but usually the best linemen have SIZE & SMARTS.

It is important for them too (more for Center obviously).

Actually, I've read that the position needing the LEAST smarts is DE (followed by RB & Guard & FB).

Smarts helps ALL players, regardless of position. But DE is the least important position to need smarts....

Motion
02-27-2006, 02:41 PM
Makes you wonder how Seth McKinney was ever a starter! :lol:

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 02:41 PM
you will find more 7th round picks and undrafted free agents starting on the o-line than in any other position. the reason is simple; coming out of college they didn't have prototypical size, or they didn't have the proper technique or whatever. however they made it starting in the league because of their intelligence. they have to make decisions on the fly based on what the defense is showing, and all 5 have to be in sync with this to work. the center will often call out assignments, and like with the colts, the QB can get extremely involved. and the technique is unreal. you can't just put a big guy in there and expect him to block. if you did that, there'd be 20 sacks a game. most coaches in the NFL will tell you it's the most technique-demanding position. there's more smarts involved than brute strength, which is why someone like tony mandarich was a bust.

Linemen make up 45% of the offense, so I would expect this. Typically, skill position players are drafted in the early rounds. Miami's offensive line improved immensely from last year to this year, and I would say that's because they were better coached rather than they got more intelligent.

Linemen typically are the smartest - in terms of GPA, Wonderlic tests, and so on - but their positions do not require an incredible amount of thought. Suppose a center calls out an assignment. This assumes that the player he's yelling to is oblivious to the defensive formation and was completely unable to pick out what he's supposed to do. The vast majority of formations involve the offensive line attempting to block the defensive line. The left tackle on a passing play typically has to block the right end. If it's a screen, block and release. If it's a running play, push the guy forward away from where the ball carrier is supposed to go. It's not overly complicated.

I have seen nothing to show me that offensive linemen defensively have a lot of dynamic thought and decision making to do. I see plenty of articles referring to offensive linemen being the smartest people on the field, but I don't see anything to indicate why what they do on the field requires that much intelligence. Picking up a blitz is an example I hear many, many times. What can a lineman do about a blitz? Often, nothing. A blitz brings more people than the standard rush. A lineman certainly shouldn't be shedding his assignment for a blitzer. If a blitzer comes in, he comes in - and somebody should be open. Blocking, as you said, depends a lot on technique. This is true. However, I make the claim that technique is not representative of decision-making ability.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 02:44 PM
I agree with basically everything you're saying about the Wonderlic test and results/assessment...

But you're incorrect about O-Linemen not needing "smarts".
Yes, there's always exceptions, and of course strength/size is a BIG factor, but usually the best linemen have SIZE & SMARTS.

It is important for them too (more for Center obviously).

Actually, I've read that the position needing the LEAST smarts is DE (followed by RB & Guard & FB).

Smarts helps ALL players, regardless of position. But DE is the least important position to need smarts....

I disagree in that if defensive end requires next to no smarts, then neither does offensive line. A defensive end has the opposite priorities of an offensive tackle. They too need to recognize blocking schemes, offensive audibles, passing plays, screens, run plays, designed quarterback runs, and so forth. A defensive end can't simply charge at the quarterback.

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 02:52 PM
You're correct...

I remember reading somewhere (somewhat recently) that the Center knows the playbook/calls/audibles/etc better than anyone on the field (other than QB). :eek:

There's a lot of thinking that O-Linemen do.....calling assignments, recognizing blitzes, stunts, audibles, etc. Their assignments can change with each of these things.....
If they have a blown assignment (block the wrong guy on audible or stunt/fail to recognize blitz/etc), the play is usually a bust...

Granted, Center is more cerebral than the Guards & Tackles, but they need to know a lot too....

Can you give me an example of any of these? Everybody on the offense needs to know the playbook. Intuitively, I don't know why an offensive lineman's playbook would need to be more expansive than a receiver's, for example.

I don't believe that offensive linemen can change in response to blitzes, stunts, or audibles. Blitzes can be fairly obvious - if they are, then there's going to be more people rushing than the line can block. There isn't anything a lineman can do about this whether they recognize it or not. You don't need a Ph.D. to realize that if you're standing there on a blitz, you screwed up.

Defensive audibles play very little part in this. I don't see how they have this huge decision-making process. A zone blitz, for example, will bring one or two guys from a particular spot. There's a chance it's not the standard assignment - suppose a 3-4 DE drops into coverage (Aaron Smith has done this alot). Then Clark Haggans rushes from the OLB spot. It is generally designed so that the offensive line doesn't know who's rushing. In this case, a lineman is reactive in that he blocks whoever is rushing. If both guys are rushing, there isn't anything he can do about it. Though it is possible that both guys are staying back, that is defensively illogical.

Stunts also aren't recognizable unless the defensive linemen put down different hands or lean in different directions. Defensive linemen, for their part, frequently do this to confuse linemen. Stunts are simply designed to disrupt the line and break through - there isn't much complexity to it.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 03:03 PM
Can you give me an example of any of these? Everybody on the offense needs to know the playbook. Intuitively, I don't know why an offensive lineman's playbook would need to be more expansive than a receiver's, for example.

.

Because there is a thing called a 'Passing Tree' which is bascially all the routes and each route has a number

Example play - Banana Split 842 Right

Banana Split is the formation, 8 is the reciever on the lefts route, 4 is the slot guy, 2 is the Right reciever

A reciever can basically listen to his assignment

For an offensive lineman its not like that you have to pick up and recognize a blitz, there is no number for that, only technique and smarts

nick1
02-27-2006, 03:05 PM
Vince Young Part II
• Upon further review Vince Young did not score a 6 on the Wonderlic after all. It has now come out that his initial test was scored wrong, but rather than just score it correctly they allowed him to take it again and he came through with a 16.

he didn't get a 6, that was false info

Alex44
02-27-2006, 03:06 PM
I don't believe that offensive linemen can change in response to blitzes, stunts, or audibles. Blitzes can be fairly obvious - if they are, then there's going to be more people rushing than the line can block. There isn't anything a lineman can do about this whether they recognize it or not. You don't need a Ph.D. to realize that if you're standing there on a blitz, you screwed up.

.

Left this out of my last post on accident

When there is a blitz it has to be recognized, who everyone blocks changes, the tackle hits the innermost player, the guard slides down one, and the center usually picks up the closest player to him, that way the outside guy is the one that comes free and allows more time for the QB

It also helps when the center sees the blitz and the QB is young and doesnt see it that way the center calls it out, and a younger QB can recognize it

Kevin Mawae (sp?) doesnt shut down Zach Thomas seemingly all the time due to just being strong

HysterikiLL
02-27-2006, 03:16 PM
Has anyone noted that they screwed up his results and he actually got a 16, and because of the screw up, they're letting him take the test again?

16 was better than Marino, so will this dissolve the haters somewhat from this thread?

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 03:17 PM
Left this out of my last post on accident

When there is a blitz it has to be recognized, who everyone blocks changes, the tackle hits the innermost player, the guard slides down one, and the center usually picks up the closest player to him, that way the outside guy is the one that comes free and allows more time for the QB

It also helps when the center sees the blitz and the QB is young and doesnt see it that way the center calls it out, and a younger QB can recognize it

Kevin Mawae (sp?) doesnt shut down Zach Thomas seemingly all the time due to just being strong
What you suggested about a blitz is only partly true. Assume, as you must, that a defense is completely transparent and shows plainly its blitz package. This means it's likely an edge nickel, 5-2, or some other such formation with extra players on or near the line of scrimmage. If it is this obvious, then changing assignments (all of a whopping one adjacent player, by the way), might help mitigate the blitz. However, the job of picking up a blitz often falls to the tight end or running back as by definition a blitz brings an additional rusher. Also, reading a blitz is very difficult as a good defense should attempt to disguise its blitz packages as much as possible.

Whatever happened in the past with Zach Thomas and Kevin Mawae has nothing to do with the intelligence of Kevin Mawae.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 03:31 PM
What you suggested about a blitz is only partly true. Assume, as you must, that a defense is completely transparent and shows plainly its blitz package. This means it's likely an edge nickel, 5-2, or some other such formation with extra players on or near the line of scrimmage. If it is this obvious, then changing assignments (all of a whopping one adjacent player, by the way), might help mitigate the blitz. However, the job of picking up a blitz often falls to the tight end or running back as by definition a blitz brings an additional rusher. Also, reading a blitz is very difficult as a good defense should attempt to disguise its blitz packages as much as possible.

Whatever happened in the past with Zach Thomas and Kevin Mawae has nothing to do with the intelligence of Kevin Mawae.

Thats where the linemans smarts come in, knowing a teams tendancies like do they blitz a lot, what the down and distance is, on tape did they blitz a lot on this down and distance

When you watch tapes where a QB gets hit very very hard, its usually because the tackle took the outside guy and the inside guy came flying through free, taking the inside guy usually also puts a linebacker or a secondary player for the running back to block, which is far easier for him than a DE, the problem with changing a TE to protection on a Blitz, is usually on a Blitz the TE is your hot read if you have a good recieving TE anyway

The Mawae thing was meant to say, his athleticism is what allows him to be able to pull on a run play and make a block on a linebacker

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 03:50 PM
Thats where the linemans smarts come in, knowing a teams tendancies like do they blitz a lot, what the down and distance is, on tape did they blitz a lot on this down and distance

When you watch tapes where a QB gets hit very very hard, its usually because the tackle took the outside guy and the inside guy came flying through free, taking the inside guy usually also puts a linebacker or a secondary player for the running back to block, which is far easier for him than a DE, the problem with changing a TE to protection on a Blitz, is usually on a Blitz the TE is your hot read if you have a good recieving TE anyway

The Mawae thing was meant to say, his athleticism is what allows him to be able to pull on a run play and make a block on a linebacker

Athleticism does not equal intelligence. Also, you don't need to be intelligent to answer a few simple questions such as "do they blitz alot?" and "what down and distance is it?" I don't believe that linemen spend time with game film analyzing what a team does on a particular down and distance. If anything, somebody from the booth will tell the quarterback and they'll relay it to the line. Besides, if they're so smart, they should be picking these things up dynamically anyway.

Hot reads wouldn't exist - and tight ends and running backs would never have to help block - if linemen were able to adjust to blitzes automatically. I still continue to make the claim that linemen frequently cannot do anything about a blitz, so whether they recognize it or not is irrelevant.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 03:58 PM
Athleticism does not equal intelligence. Also, you don't need to be intelligent to answer a few simple questions such as "do they blitz alot?" and "what down and distance is it?" I don't believe that linemen spend time with game film analyzing what a team does on a particular down and distance. If anything, somebody from the booth will tell the quarterback and they'll relay it to the line. Besides, if they're so smart, they should be picking these things up dynamically anyway.

Hot reads wouldn't exist - and tight ends and running backs would never have to help block - if linemen were able to adjust to blitzes automatically. I still continue to make the claim that linemen frequently cannot do anything about a blitz, so whether they recognize it or not is irrelevant.

Well you said they were both unathletic and didnt need to be smart so im just making a point, I didnt say that being athletic means they are smart, just that they are athletic

You need to be smart enough to study the tape, and see their formations, how often they blitz, when they do it, and it could never be relayed to you on the spot, thats to much for everyone to remember

Picking up a blitz does not really mean you block everyone, it means you pick up enough people to buy your QB time, its very relivant ask a QB that gets knocked down repeatedly because the tackle doesnt adjust and takes the outside rusher instead so he gets sacked and hit every play

Im not saying they are the rocket scientists of the NFL, but the position takes far more smarts than your giving credit for

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 04:11 PM
Well you said they were both unathletic and didnt need to be smart so im just making a point, I didnt say that being athletic means they are smart, just that they are athletic

I never said they were unathletic, though I could see how what I said could be read that way. I did say (and I stick to) that they are the least athletic people on the field.


You need to be smart enough to study the tape, and see their formations, how often they blitz, when they do it, and it could never be relayed to you on the spot, thats to much for everyone to remember

Most quarterbacks don't even do that. But you think offensive linemen do? I doubt that.


Picking up a blitz does not really mean you block everyone, it means you pick up enough people to buy your QB time, its very relivant ask a QB that gets knocked down repeatedly because the tackle doesnt adjust and takes the outside rusher instead so he gets sacked and hit every play

Im not saying they are the rocket scientists of the NFL, but the position takes far more smarts than your giving credit for

I will say again that offensive linemen frequently need to block the guys that are their base assignments. Linemen generally do not have the opportunity to pick up blitzing defenders.

Ask David Carr if he gets sacked repeatedly because his linemen are not smart enough or because they simply don't have the talent. If it were simply a matter of blocking a different guy, the Texans would do substantially better.

Alex44
02-27-2006, 04:17 PM
I never said they were unathletic, though I could see how what I said could be read that way. I did say (and I stick to) that they are the least athletic people on the field.



Most quarterbacks don't even do that. But you think offensive linemen do? I doubt that.



I will say again that offensive linemen frequently need to block the guys that are their base assignments. Linemen generally do not have the opportunity to pick up blitzing defenders.

Ask David Carr if he gets sacked repeatedly because his linemen are not smart enough or because they simply don't have the talent. If it were simply a matter of blocking a different guy, the Texans would do substantially better.

1- I dont agree with that either, everyone is equally athletic but does different things

2- Linemen always change their assignments and are picking up different guys, its usually never just block the guy in front of you unless the defense only brings 4 defenders

3- That texans thing didnt make sense, if its not because they arent smart enough, or because they arent athletic enough then what is it? Ill make the bet that they are equally as strong as any other O-line in the league so what do you think their problem is

nick1
02-27-2006, 04:17 PM
Has anyone noted that they screwed up his results and he actually got a 16, and because of the screw up, they're letting him take the test again?

16 was better than Marino, so will this dissolve the haters somewhat from this thread?
I did :D

flintsilver7
02-27-2006, 04:35 PM
1- I dont agree with that either, everyone is equally athletic but does different things

That statement makes no sense. You're saying that LaDainian Tomlinson and Jonathan Ogden are equally athletic, just in different ways? Their relative strength, conditioning, speed, flexibility, and so on would beg to differ.


2- Linemen always change their assignments and are picking up different guys, its usually never just block the guy in front of you unless the defense only brings 4 defenders

"Only bringing 4 defenders" is also known as what usually happens in a football game. Even on blitzes most linemen pick up whoever lines up in front of them, or whoever charges their gap - usually, it's the same person.


3- That texans thing didnt make sense, if its not because they arent smart enough, or because they arent athletic enough then what is it? Ill make the bet that they are equally as strong as any other O-line in the league so what do you think their problem is

First, athleticism is not intelligence. I repeated that before. The linemen for the Texans simply do not have the talent to protect their quarterback. This is compounded by the fact that their second-best receiving option is Domanick Davis. Defenses rarely have to play nickel or dime packages against the Texans.

finfan54
02-27-2006, 09:41 PM
First he scored a 12, then he re-took it and scored a 16.

It is a HUGE red flag when a QB scores in the teens. Remember what this test is. I've taken it before. The first question on my copy was "what is the 9th month of the year?".

Thoughts?

I dont think VY really cares.

miamiron
03-01-2006, 11:44 PM
Off topic - Can someone please tell me who is Vince Young's agent?
Alex22:sidelol:

Eshlemon
03-02-2006, 03:46 AM
Yep, I agree with you there re: the SAT scores...but I honestly think that the Wonerlick has to be closer to an IQ test than an SAT due to the reasons I mentioned above (although the SAT is a good tool). This is why I'm opposed to letting Young take it a third or fourth time...a psychologist will tell you that IQ test results can rise if you take it repeatedly over a short period of time...but these rising results will be inaccurate and that is why they use other tools (at times) other than IQ tests to measure intelligence.

Maybe that's what Young's agent and college coach need to do. Hire an independent psychologist and have that psychologist administer an IQ and Rorschac (sp??) test on him. They don't have to tell anyone. He takes the test and if he scores well, then the agent can share the test results with teams. If he does poorly, no one has to know that he took these tests.

Your idea about averaging out two scores isn't bad but I don't think that an average of 11 would help Young. :)

Actually the Titans (and other interested teams) will be the ones to psychological tests. When McNair scored a 15 in 1995, GM Reese used that type of test to make sure McNair wouldn't have any problem learning in the NFL. Worked out for them with McNair, guess we'll find out on draft day if Young passed the psych test.

Philter25
03-02-2006, 10:33 AM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/01/young3ce-1.jpg