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View Full Version : Are you a combine fool?



finfan54
02-28-2006, 08:04 AM
There are plenty on this board who think that these things will determine greatness as a football player. It means no such thing. It only can verify greatness that was already witnessed on the football field and also mislead people into believing that someone is not all they are cracked up to be based on some test.

So go ahead and put all you money on the guy who does this or debunk the guy that doesnt do this or that, cus you wont remember this once these players hit the field.

ZolarZ_GoPhins
02-28-2006, 08:46 AM
The combines do give us the finishing touch to what we are looking at currently in the draft. Some lesser known guys can grab some attention and move up the boards, especially if they are from lesser known schools ala Don Beebe. Top guys typically don't move down alot since they are well studied in game tape and alot of information if availiable on them.

The combines are interesting and fun to talk about.

How they relate to drafting is more of a fine tuning tool and not something you make rash decision based solely on a workout. The interviews I think carry more weight with the drafting process then anything done at the combines.

RUDEbyallMEANS
02-28-2006, 09:12 AM
Combine fool as in TIVOing the NFL Channel to watch the 3 hours of combine coverage....... Yes

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-28-2006, 12:06 PM
another positive post from finfan54. the combine is used as an evaluation tool, just as watching tape is. you don't judge players just on one thing. you combine everything, from the tape of the games, to the senior bowl, interviews, combine, pro days, workouts, etc. with all the money and expectations involved here, you have to get the right player. and some things just don't show up on film at the college level. and ZolarZ is right. it's a chance for players from small schools, or guys who didn't get much playing time, get to show their ability, and hopefully get drafted in the later rounds so they can work their way onto a roster. it's not just about the elite players. someone like ingle martin pretty much assured himself of getting a chance to compete in the NFL because of a good combine.

arsenal
02-28-2006, 12:08 PM
There are plenty on this board who think that these things will determine greatness as a football player. It means no such thing. It only can verify greatness that was already witnessed on the football field and also mislead people into believing that someone is not all they are cracked up to be based on some test.

So go ahead and put all you money on the guy who does this or debunk the guy that doesnt do this or that, cus you wont remember this once these players hit the field.

so youve had a chance to evaluate each player individually in every game tihs season and seen whos faster, stronger, better feet, quicker, etc etc?

or is the combine a chance to put everyone together, and see how they measure up to each other... its a great evaluation tool, of course you shouldn't put all stock into what they do at the combine... but you definately dont put zero stock either...

Philter25
02-28-2006, 12:09 PM
another positive post from finfan54. the combine is used as an evaluation tool, just as watching tape is. you don't judge players just on one thing. you combine everything, from the tape of the games, to the senior bowl, interviews, combine, pro days, workouts, etc. with all the money and expectations involved here, you have to get the right player. and some things just don't show up on film at the college level. and ZolarZ is right. it's a chance for players from small schools, or guys who didn't get much playing time, get to show their ability, and hopefully get drafted in the later rounds so they can work their way onto a roster. it's not just about the elite players. someone like ingle martin pretty much assured himself of getting a chance to compete in the NFL because of a good combine.

Well said.

rafael
02-28-2006, 12:13 PM
It can also identify players who didn't perform as well as they could have
b/c they were in the wrong systems. Or identify players who were protected by their systems that simply lack the size, speed, strength etc. to perform against NFL athletes.

Motion
02-28-2006, 12:19 PM
This is as bad as the thread that said the Senior Bowl was pointless.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-28-2006, 12:22 PM
don't get me wrong, there are players that benefit TOO much from a great combine, like jeff george. but i think that's all part of the learning process with NFL coaches and GMs. at one point, guys like andre ware who were just plain system QBs were looked at as future hall of famers, whereas now, they're just looked at as another system guy. for the most part, i'd say they're over that.

finfan54
02-28-2006, 01:40 PM
another positive post from finfan54. the combine is used as an evaluation tool, just as watching tape is. you don't judge players just on one thing. you combine everything, from the tape of the games, to the senior bowl, interviews, combine, pro days, workouts, etc. with all the money and expectations involved here, you have to get the right player. and some things just don't show up on film at the college level. and ZolarZ is right. it's a chance for players from small schools, or guys who didn't get much playing time, get to show their ability, and hopefully get drafted in the later rounds so they can work their way onto a roster. it's not just about the elite players. someone like ingle martin pretty much assured himself of getting a chance to compete in the NFL because of a good combine.


It also gives the media a chance to talk up one or two guys all day long and pretty soon, they become invincible. Okee dokee. whatever! Zach Thomas never got recognized in the combine. Jason Taylor was a tweener. Randy Moss smoked dope and was a punk. Dan Marino was doing cocaine. This is one of my few points. It does not translate into anything on the field except a few heads get all big and then reality hits. Cutler will find this out in a hurry. Im not saying Cutler shouldnt be recognized for what he is doing, im just saying, the recognition wont fit the results.

finfan54
02-28-2006, 01:42 PM
This is as bad as the thread that said the Senior Bowl was pointless.


whatever.

Alex44
02-28-2006, 01:45 PM
No-one is going to go from a second rounder to first overall if they run a 4.2

Basically if a team has two guys they are looking at lets say Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown, on tape both look amazing

But lets say one does more bench reps and runs a faster 40

Well thats the guy you wanna take, its just a measuring tool like everything else

finfan54
02-28-2006, 01:46 PM
It can also identify players who didn't perform as well as they could have
b/c they were in the wrong systems. Or identify players who were protected by their systems that simply lack the size, speed, strength etc. to perform against NFL athletes.



only the few get talked about. Lots more get lost in the shuffle. Its a meat market with salesmen waiting up in the booth for the NFL Network in which everybody out there starts believing everything they read and hear.

Motion
02-28-2006, 01:49 PM
whatever.

Exactly what I was thinking after reading the original post.

finfan54
02-28-2006, 01:51 PM
No-one is going to go from a second rounder to first overall if they run a 4.2

Basically if a team has two guys they are looking at lets say Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown, on tape both look amazing

But lets say one does more bench reps and runs a faster 40

Well thats the guy you wanna take, its just a measuring tool like everything else

I disagree alex. I think we took ronnie brown for a simple reason. Saban wanted a guy who could smash teams in the fourth quarter and he remembered Brown moreso than Caddy when LSU played Auburn. I think the combine just solidified everything they expected. dont get me wrong, the combine is a useful tool no doubt about it, what I am referring to is the hype.

finfan54
02-28-2006, 01:53 PM
Exactly what I was thinking after reading the original post.


Yeah, speed has it all down pat. But no one will remember this stuff in a year from now.

Alex44
02-28-2006, 01:53 PM
I disagree alex. I think we took ronnie brown for a simple reason. Saban wanted a guy who could smash teams in the fourth quarter and he remembered Brown moreso than Caddy when LSU played Auburn. I think the combine just solidified everything they expected. dont get me wrong, the combine is a useful tool no doubt about it, what I am referring to is the hype.

I was just using them as an example, I think we took ronnie for the same reason you said

But basically what I meant is if you have two guys who perform equal then you wanna see them up close, running, jumping, catching, following directions on drills and so on

We shouldnt put TO much weight on it, but its improtant

Motion
02-28-2006, 01:54 PM
Yeah, speed has it all down pat. But no one will remember this stuff in a year from now.

I didn't say they would but to suggest its not a very valuable scouting tool, especially the interviews, is ridiculous. Thats all.

finfan54
02-28-2006, 02:02 PM
I didn't say they would but to suggest its not a very valuable scouting tool, especially the interviews, is ridiculous. Thats all.


And some guys like to prove it on the field. That to me is the real deal. The combine stuff is to check out the other variables. Just because a guy bench presses 10 more reps than Zach Thomas doesnt mean he is a better player than Zach Thomas, but that is what gets preached to the choir.

Cutler going out there and proving his attitude and all is fine, but all i am saying is that does not translate into greatness and every year we see guys get talked up so much and then what? Well, they go to a crappy team first off, then we find out that when they have pressure on them, its a much different story. I dont think that is so hard to understand is it?

Motion
02-28-2006, 02:05 PM
And some guys like to prove it on the field. That to me is the real deal. The combine stuff is to check out the other variables. Just because a guy bench presses 10 more reps than Zach Thomas doesnt mean he is a better player than Zach Thomas, but that is what gets preached to the choir.

Cutler going out there and proving his attitude and all is fine, but all i am saying is that does not translate into greatness and every year we see guys get talked up so much and then what? Well, they go to a crappy team first off, then we find out that when they have pressure on them, its a much different story. I dont think that is so hard to understand is it?

Not at all. Its a thin line no doubt. Valuable, yes but thats why NFL personell have the jobs they do, to translate what they see into what they need. I never said the combine was the gospel, nor did I discount what they do on the field. It all has its place.

Alex44
02-28-2006, 02:05 PM
And some guys like to prove it on the field. That to me is the real deal. The combine stuff is to check out the other variables. Just because a guy bench presses 10 more reps than Zach Thomas doesnt mean he is a better player than Zach Thomas, but that is what gets preached to the choir.

Cutler going out there and proving his attitude and all is fine, but all i am saying is that does not translate into greatness and every year we see guys get talked up so much and then what? Well, they go to a crappy team first off, then we find out that when they have pressure on them, its a much different story. I dont think that is so hard to understand is it?

No but it means he is stronger than Zach, and if you are looking for a stronger linebacker to shed off blocks you should look at that guy instead of Zach

rafael
02-28-2006, 02:33 PM
only the few get talked about. Lots more get lost in the shuffle. Its a meat market with salesmen waiting up in the booth for the NFL Network in which everybody out there starts believing everything they read and hear.

Amongst some fans maybe, but if you're someone like Saban who has specific criteria for each position that you believe are required by the NFL then the Combine measurables are huge. And you can't tell me system doesn't matter. J. Fletcher was voted one of the top 100 players in college football history for his performance on the field. If Wanny had paid more attention to his combine measureables he would have seen that he lacked the size to be a bump and run corner.

Flyer22
02-28-2006, 05:20 PM
And some guys like to prove it on the field. That to me is the real deal. The combine stuff is to check out the other variables. Just because a guy bench presses 10 more reps than Zach Thomas doesnt mean he is a better player than Zach Thomas, but that is what gets preached to the choir.

Cutler going out there and proving his attitude and all is fine, but all i am saying is that does not translate into greatness and every year we see guys get talked up so much and then what? Well, they go to a crappy team first off, then we find out that when they have pressure on them, its a much different story. I dont think that is so hard to understand is it? The Combine is a great way to measure things like pure speed and strength. Maybe some fans take it as gospel, but the fans aren't the ones making the picks. Of course success in the combine doesn't translate to success on the field, that is why scouts use it in addition to game tape, player/coach interviews, and many other tools. Just like anything else in football, nothing is guaranteed. It's as simple as this: if you were a GM, would you rather know a potential player's 40 time and bench press or not?

miamiron
03-01-2006, 11:31 PM
whatever.:shakeno:

finfan54
03-02-2006, 09:03 AM
No but it means he is stronger than Zach, and if you are looking for a stronger linebacker to shed off blocks you should look at that guy instead of Zach



Not if he hasnt shown it on the football field. What I am trying to say here is that a guy like Vernon Davis just wowed scouts at the combine. He absolutely did everything! He blew them away.

He was already the number one TE on alot of peoples boards anyways. Because he showed it on the football field and they already know certain things. All he did was improve or hold his stock.

Channing Crowder was an injury concern. Is he anymore? that is what translated to the football field. Saban wont buy completely into the combine. He will look at the whole big picture and film.

A combine fool right now is Mayock. He is pushing guys up because they simply showed up bigtime at the combine. But the process does not stop here. The process will continue and Young will show himself at his pro day. He may not wow someone as much as Cutler wowed them. but that is a workout! It is not game time adversity or showtime mentality! Vince Young has the game day moxy. It was proven. Now it is forgotten. Translating talent into the NFL? Micheal vick gets hailed as great, yet Young is a turd? Guess again.

finfan54
03-02-2006, 09:07 AM
The Combine is a great way to measure things like pure speed and strength. Maybe some fans take it as gospel, but the fans aren't the ones making the picks. Of course success in the combine doesn't translate to success on the field, that is why scouts use it in addition to game tape, player/coach interviews, and many other tools. Just like anything else in football, nothing is guaranteed. It's as simple as this: if you were a GM, would you rather know a potential player's 40 time and bench press or not?


Exactly, so what makes Cutler such a great leader or QB as much as they are saying? He simply moved his stock up by bench pressing 23. He is the underdog story that the media loves to hype. All I have ever said is what did Cutler do at Vandy that was so great?

miamiron
03-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Exactly, so what makes Cutler such a great leader or QB as much as they are saying? He simply moved his stock up by bench pressing 23. He is the underdog story that the media loves to hype. All I have ever said is what did Cutler do at Vandy that was so great?

I like the fact that he showed up and performed at the combine

something other players did not do!

Pennington's Rocket Arm
03-02-2006, 11:23 AM
Exactly, so what makes Cutler such a great leader or QB as much as they are saying? He simply moved his stock up by bench pressing 23. He is the underdog story that the media loves to hype. All I have ever said is what did Cutler do at Vandy that was so great?
cutler was a top 10 pick long before he lifted 23 times. i seriously doubt it has anything to do with his stock rising. his interviews and workouts probably did the trick.

primetime23
03-02-2006, 12:47 PM
noo, we took ronnie because hes faster bigger, better blocker, better coming out of the backfield

finfan54
03-02-2006, 01:46 PM
cutler was a top 10 pick long before he lifted 23 times. i seriously doubt it has anything to do with his stock rising. his interviews and workouts probably did the trick.


his senior bowl practices are what made his stock go up. then he basically blew the game somewhat. Kiper says he was at the senior bowl all week and said the hype is just that, hype. He is not saying, as am i, that Cutler is not bad and will probably be a good QB, but the hype is just way too much. for once, I couldnt agree more with Mel Kiper in my entire life. Mayock i understand already has his marriage certificate done with the town hall and is set to marry jay soon.

miamiron
03-03-2006, 11:00 PM
his senior bowl practices are what made his stock go up. then he basically blew the game somewhat. Kiper says he was at the senior bowl all week and said the hype is just that, hype. He is not saying, as am i, that Cutler is not bad and will probably be a good QB, but the hype is just way too much. for once, I couldnt agree more with Mel Kiper in my entire life. Mayock i understand already has his marriage certificate done with the town hall and is set to marry jay soon.:shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

KingCrowder
03-05-2006, 02:10 AM
so youve had a chance to evaluate each player individually in every game tihs season and seen whos faster, stronger, better feet, quicker, etc etc?

or is the combine a chance to put everyone together, and see how they measure up to each other... its a great evaluation tool, of course you shouldn't put all stock into what they do at the combine... but you definately dont put zero stock either...


I don't really feel how fast a guy runs in a T-shirt and shorts will transfer over to game day.

I feel that for the most part the combine is overratted. the drills these players are put through are not game situations. How fast you run in a T-shirt and shorts is completely different to how your going to run on your 30th carry of the game in 100 degree heat with a 300lb person chasing you.

Also what is the deal with players going to the combine and not doing anything? if these drills are so important participation should be mandatory for the draft. but those are just my feelings about it.

miamiron
03-05-2006, 04:34 PM
I don't really feel how fast a guy runs in a T-shirt and shorts will transfer over to game day.

I feel that for the most part the combine is overratted. the drills these players are put through are not game situations. How fast you run in a T-shirt and shorts is completely different to how your going to run on your 30th carry of the game in 100 degree heat with a 300lb person chasing you.

Also what is the deal with players going to the combine and not doing anything? if these drills are so important participation should be mandatory for the draft. but those are just my feelings about it.

Very over-rated...I guess thats why all teams are represented at the combine...and I'm positive that Nick Saben (and all the other coaches)would waste a few days out of
there busy schedule to spend time on"vacation" at the combine.

KingCrowder
03-05-2006, 08:53 PM
Very over-rated...I guess thats why all teams are represented at the combine...and I'm positive that Nick Saben (and all the other coaches)would waste a few days out of
there busy schedule to spend time on"vacation" at the combine.

There have been more players who became busts who stock rose based on the combine more so than what they did on the field. Also every team is represented because there are trade talks and other things that happen there.

finfan54
03-06-2006, 08:08 AM
:shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:


what you disagree? Mayock is in absolute love with jay.:rolleyes2

Geforce
03-06-2006, 08:47 AM
There have been more players who became busts who stock rose based on the combine more so than what they did on the field. Also every team is represented because there are trade talks and other things that happen there.
The coaches and general managers that based their draft solely on what a player does at the combine are usually the ones who gets fired.
Teams don't need to go to the combine for trade talks and other things. The teams talk trades all the time.

finfan54
03-07-2006, 08:26 AM
Its a verification of what they already know that has transpired on the field and also a way to wake up to those you dont know about and you can dig deaper into who they are. i think the combine is a way to investigate but if you base everything on the combine (Jay Cutler as an example) you can find that the hype doesnt match the reality by far. So many other players who are not known will have a bigger impact than the few who are mentioned ten times every day!

Motion
03-07-2006, 08:54 AM
Its a verification of what they already know that has transpired on the field and also a way to wake up to those you dont know about and you can dig deaper into who they are. i think the combine is a way to investigate but if you base everything on the combine (Jay Cutler as an example) you can find that the hype doesnt match the reality by far. So many other players who are not known will have a bigger impact than the few who are mentioned ten times every day!

What is your basis for that statement?

Pennington's Rocket Arm
03-07-2006, 10:46 AM
mayock has said cutler is the best QB in the draft the entire season. the combine had nothing to do with his opinion.