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ckparrothead
03-09-2006, 12:20 PM
You are probably familiar by now with the defensive back athleticism ratings I did. I used a similar formula to develop LB athleticism ratings. I would have thought AJ Hawk would be number one on this list but he's not.

As you know from the DBs ratings, I weighted some attributes more than others. For LBs I gave a LITTLE extra weight (not much) to height, weight, bench press, 10 yard split, short shuttle, and cone drill. Those are factors that I consider to be of more importance to LBs than some others. Keep in mind, however, that the extra weighting is quite soft, about 10% extra padding to each one of those.

Here you go.

Rank....Pos....Name....School....Rating

1 . LBO Jon Alston Stanford 13.49
2 . LBO A.J. Hawk Ohio State 13.46
3 . LBO Terna Nande Miami-Oh 13.44
4 . LBO James Anderson Virginia Tech 13.42
5 . LBO Thomas Howard UTEP 13.36
6 . LBO Spencer Havner UCLA 13.20
7 . LBO Ernie Sims Florida State 13.07
8 . LBI Gerris Wilkinson Georgia Tech 13.01
9 . LBI Tim McGarigle Northwestern 12.97
10 . LBO Brandon Johnson Louisville 12.87
11 . LBO DeMeco Ryans Alabama 12.84
12 . LBO Jamar Williams Arizona State 12.81
13 . LBO Clint Ingram Oklahoma 12.79
14 . LBO Anthony Trucks Oregon 12.77
15 . LBO Chad Greenway Iowa 12.76
16 . LBO William Kershaw Maryland 12.74
17 . LBI Tim Dobbins Iowa State 12.68
18 . LBO Travis Williams Auburn 12.66
19 . LBO Roger McIntosh Miami-Fl 12.63
20 . LBO Cameron Vaughn LSU 12.60
21 . LBO Keith Ellison Oregon State 12.55
22 . LBI D'Qwell Jackson Maryland 12.52
23 . LBO Omar Gaither Tennessee 12.47
24 . LBO Kai Parham Virginia 12.44
25 . LBI Abdul Hodge Iowa 12.40
26 . LBO Stephen Tulloch North Carolina State 12.39
27 . LBO Freddie Keiaho San Diego State 12.31
28 . LBO A.J. Nicholson Florida State 12.27
29 . LBI Anthony Schlegel Ohio State 12.24
30 . LBI Trent Bray Oregon State 12.17
31 . LBI Freddie Roach Alabama 12.17
32 . LBI Oliver Hoyte North Carolina State 12.14
33 . LBI Dale Robinson Arizona State 12.12
34 . LBI Kevin Simon-AC Tennessee 11.78
NR . LBI Leon Williams Miami-Fl N.R.
NR . LBO Elvis Dumervil Louisville N.R.
NR . LBO Brian Iwuh Colorado N.R.
NR . LBO Bobby Carpenter Ohio State N.R.
NR . LBO Will Derting Washington State N.R.

Again, the final 5 guys, Leon Williams, Elvis Dumervil, Brian Iwuh, Bobby Carpenter, and Will Derting just did not participate in near enough drills to get a full athleticism rating for them, so they've been left out. You'll notice that Chad Greenway didn't show up as badly as maybe some people thought, still making the top 15 in athleticism factors.

Jon Alston really had a pretty incredible Combine and the only things he's got going against him is his weight, 223 pounds. He showed up about 6'1" and he's athletic as all heck yet did 30 bench reps.

AJ Hawk is a god among men.

It's no surprise that Terna Nande is this high on the athleticism charts. There was an audible buzz about him at the Combine. Scouts watched him work out and were heard saying they really need to get back in the film room and devour some tape on this guy.

James Anderson and Thomas Howard are HIGHLY athletic guys, but Anderson is a bit undersized for OUR system at 230 pounds (not for others' systems, however). James stood out to me in his bowl game. I think he had an interception returned for a TD in that game.

Motion
03-09-2006, 12:37 PM
Interesting stuff once again CK. I thought Sims, Jackson, and Hodge would all have been higher.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-09-2006, 12:47 PM
Thanks for doing that. It is fun to see. Is Manny Lawson listed among DE's? I wonder where he would stack up with the linebackers?

playmaker1
03-09-2006, 01:51 PM
man CK, great work. You sure know your stuff! Keep up the good work, its always interesting looking at it from a numbers point of view

ckparrothead
03-09-2006, 02:11 PM
Sims is pretty remarkably high on the list, actually....#7 overall. Remember this is purely based on athleticism figures, and for a LB (especially an ILB) athleticism is not often considered the chief factor in guiding how good a LB will be in the NFL. The insider linebacker position, probably more than any other position, is filled with guys who maybe didn't run the fastest or jump the highest but are one of the best.

Lawson, if added, would probably be #1 above Alston and Hawk, judging from his unofficial numbers. I'm relying on official master combine results put out by TFY and they are doing it sort of one group at a time, and haven't put out the DEs group yet.

t2thejz
03-09-2006, 03:12 PM
Sims is pretty remarkably high on the list, actually....#7 overall. Remember this is purely based on athleticism figures, and for a LB (especially an ILB) athleticism is not often considered the chief factor in guiding how good a LB will be in the NFL. The insider linebacker position, probably more than any other position, is filled with guys who maybe didn't run the fastest or jump the highest but are one of the best.

Lawson, if added, would probably be #1 above Alston and Hawk, judging from his unofficial numbers. I'm relying on official master combine results put out by TFY and they are doing it sort of one group at a time, and haven't put out the DEs group yet.
I'm glad you made that point because it is very true. Instincs are VERY important. None the less it is interesting looking at the list. Hawk has the athletic ability and the instincs he should be a beast in the NFL

ckparrothead
03-09-2006, 03:39 PM
What you have to love about Hawk is he's got all the instincts in the world, all the size you could want, all the athleticism you could possibly want...and his head is screwed on straight on top of it.

bright-light
03-09-2006, 05:14 PM
You are probably familiar by now with the defensive back athleticism ratings I did. I used a similar formula to develop LB athleticism ratings. I would have thought AJ Hawk would be number one on this list but he's not.

As you know from the DBs ratings, I weighted some attributes more than others. For LBs I gave a LITTLE extra weight (not much) to height, weight, bench press, 10 yard split, short shuttle, and cone drill. Those are factors that I consider to be of more importance to LBs than some others. Keep in mind, however, that the extra weighting is quite soft, about 10% extra padding to each one of those.

Here you go.

Rank....Pos....Name....School....Rating

1 . LBO Jon Alston Stanford 13.49
2 . LBO A.J. Hawk Ohio State 13.46
3 . LBO Terna Nande Miami-Oh 13.44
4 . LBO James Anderson Virginia Tech 13.42
5 . LBO Thomas Howard UTEP 13.36
6 . LBO Spencer Havner UCLA 13.20
7 . LBO Ernie Sims Florida State 13.07
8 . LBI Gerris Wilkinson Georgia Tech 13.01
9 . LBI Tim McGarigle Northwestern 12.97
10 . LBO Brandon Johnson Louisville 12.87
11 . LBO DeMeco Ryans Alabama 12.84
12 . LBO Jamar Williams Arizona State 12.81
13 . LBO Clint Ingram Oklahoma 12.79
14 . LBO Anthony Trucks Oregon 12.77
15 . LBO Chad Greenway Iowa 12.76
16 . LBO William Kershaw Maryland 12.74
17 . LBI Tim Dobbins Iowa State 12.68
18 . LBO Travis Williams Auburn 12.66
19 . LBO Roger McIntosh Miami-Fl 12.63
20 . LBO Cameron Vaughn LSU 12.60
21 . LBO Keith Ellison Oregon State 12.55
22 . LBI D'Qwell Jackson Maryland 12.52
23 . LBO Omar Gaither Tennessee 12.47
24 . LBO Kai Parham Virginia 12.44
25 . LBI Abdul Hodge Iowa 12.40
26 . LBO Stephen Tulloch North Carolina State 12.39
27 . LBO Freddie Keiaho San Diego State 12.31
28 . LBO A.J. Nicholson Florida State 12.27
29 . LBI Anthony Schlegel Ohio State 12.24
30 . LBI Trent Bray Oregon State 12.17
31 . LBI Freddie Roach Alabama 12.17
32 . LBI Oliver Hoyte North Carolina State 12.14
33 . LBI Dale Robinson Arizona State 12.12
34 . LBI Kevin Simon-AC Tennessee 11.78
NR . LBI Leon Williams Miami-Fl N.R.
NR . LBO Elvis Dumervil Louisville N.R.
NR . LBO Brian Iwuh Colorado N.R.
NR . LBO Bobby Carpenter Ohio State N.R.
NR . LBO Will Derting Washington State N.R.

Again, the final 5 guys, Leon Williams, Elvis Dumervil, Brian Iwuh, Bobby Carpenter, and Will Derting just did not participate in near enough drills to get a full athleticism rating for them, so they've been left out. You'll notice that Chad Greenway didn't show up as badly as maybe some people thought, still making the top 15 in athleticism factors.

Jon Alston really had a pretty incredible Combine and the only things he's got going against him is his weight, 223 pounds. He showed up about 6'1" and he's athletic as all heck yet did 30 bench reps.

AJ Hawk is a god among men.

It's no surprise that Terna Nande is this high on the athleticism charts. There was an audible buzz about him at the Combine. Scouts watched him work out and were heard saying they really need to get back in the film room and devour some tape on this guy.

James Anderson and Thomas Howard are HIGHLY athletic guys, but Anderson is a bit undersized for OUR system at 230 pounds (not for others' systems, however). James stood out to me in his bowl game. I think he had an interception returned for a TD in that game.
Of those linebackers, which are a good fit for Saban's type of defense, and in what rounds would they likely be selected?

ckparrothead
03-09-2006, 06:41 PM
Of those linebackers, which are a good fit for Saban's type of defense, and in what rounds would they likely be selected?

Saban cares about size a lot more than the formula dictates...so I would say Saban guys are Hawk, Nande, maybe James Anderson (he's tall, 230+ pounds), definitely Thomas Howard, Spencer Havner, Gerris Wilkinson, Brandon Johnson, Clint Ingram, Greenway, William Kershaw, Charlton Keith, Cameron Vaughn, MAYBE Demeco Ryans...Rocky McIntosh...Keith Ellison...Leon Williams...Kai Parham and Freddie Roach.

As for what rounds...I'm not really sure. Obviously Greenway, Ryans and Hawk are first rounders. Thomas Howard and Spencer Havner would probably be 2nd rounders. Nande, Wilkinson, Roach, or Parham could all sneak into round 3...maybe Anderson too. Brandon Johnson, Kershaw, Keith, Ellison, Williams, McIntosh, and Ingram are probably Day 2 guys.

Pocoloco
03-09-2006, 06:55 PM
Some of these players just have a nose for the game, some don't. You may have a great athelete that wows all the scouts the combine, that'll just asolutely buy every off-tacle run, play-action pass, option play that gets thrown at him in a game (I guess you know that I'm a little suspicious of the Manny Lawson camp).
So I put a little more stock in their college stats and on-the-field leadership abilities than a cone drill, so in terms of a draft, I have a little bit more pedestrain outlook. AJ Hawk is obviously the class of the draft, but will be long gone. Ahmad Brooks would've been a close second in my book if he declared, and we ought to think seriously about picking him up in the supplemental. Greenway is slipping on some mocks, but obviously has the talents and the smarts to be great. Howard, the UTEP guy, is a very very intriguing possibility, perhaps the steal of the draft if you get him in round 3 or later.
But I imagine there are some sleepers out there, especially with slightly undersized guys. So props to CK for the analysis, hopefully some of those sleepers are at the top of his list!

ckparrothead
03-10-2006, 04:13 PM
Here is an updated ranking that includes the DEs that should/could end up moving to OLB at the pro level. It does change things a bit.

1 . LBO Manny Lawson North Carolina State 13.29
2 . LBO Jon Alston Stanford 13.25
3 . LBO Terna Nande Miami-Oh 13.17
4 . LBO A.J. Hawk Ohio State 13.16
5 . LBO Mark Anderson Alabama 13.15
6 . LBO James Anderson Virginia Tech 13.11
7 . LBO Thomas Howard UTEP 13.11
8 . LBO Chris Gocong Cal-Poly 13.02
9 . LBO Kamerion Wimbley Florida State 12.91
10 . LBO Spencer Havner UCLA 12.87
11 . LBO Ernie Sims Florida State 12.84
12 . LBO Ryan LaCasse Syracuse 12.83
13 . LBO Mike Kudla Ohio State 12.78
14 . LBI Gerris Wilkinson Georgia Tech 12.76
15 . LBO Jeremey Mincey Florida 12.67
16 . LBI Tim McGarigle Northwestern 12.66
17 . LBO Brandon Johnson Louisville 12.65
18 . LBO Clint Ingram Oklahoma 12.60
19 . LBO DeMeco Ryans Alabama 12.59
20 . LBO Anthony Trucks Oregon 12.53
21 . LBO Jamar Williams Arizona State 12.52
22 . LBO Chad Greenway Iowa 12.50
23 . LBO William Kershaw Maryland 12.47
24 . LBO Travis Williams Auburn 12.43
25 . LBI Tim Dobbins Iowa State 12.42
26 . LBO Cameron Vaughn LSU 12.35
27 . LBO Roger McIntosh Miami-Fl 12.35
28 . LBO Stanley McClover Auburn 12.30
29 . LBO Keith Ellison Oregon State 12.29
30 . LBI D'Qwell Jackson Maryland 12.28
31 . LBO Parys Haralson Tennessee 12.24
32 . LBO Omar Gaither Tennessee 12.22
33 . LBO Darryl Tapp Virginia Tech 12.19
34 . LBO Kai Parham Virginia 12.15
35 . LBO Stephen Tulloch North Carolina State 12.13
36 . LBI Abdul Hodge Iowa 12.10
37 . LBO Freddie Keiaho San Diego State 12.08
38 . LBO A.J. Nicholson Florida State 12.05
39 . LBO Charlton Keith Kansas 12.00
40 . LBI Anthony Schlegel Ohio State 11.99
41 . LBI Trent Bray Oregon State 11.93
42 . LBI Oliver Hoyte North Carolina State 11.89
43 . LBI Dale Robinson Arizona State 11.88
44 . LBI Freddie Roach Alabama 11.86
45 . LBI Kevin Simon-AC Tennessee 11.53
NR . LBI Leon Williams Miami-Fl N.R.
NR . LBO Elvis Dumervil Louisville N.R.
NR . LBO Brian Iwuh Colorado N.R.
NR . LBO Bobby Carpenter Ohio State N.R.
NR . LBO Will Derting Washington State N.R.

Dolfan2788
03-10-2006, 05:36 PM
Lawson and Wimbley are up there.

Why did Nande overtake Hawk? Different sums?

RUDEbyallMEANS
03-11-2006, 12:02 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/8313818

This is a link to an article written by Pat Kirwan that I remembered reading before last years draft. PAt Kirwan was the speed trainer for the Jets and his "rule of thumb" for comparing speed to quickness was...


to take the 40 time and subtract the short-shuttle time and expect a 0.5 difference.

Looking at this years combine, the Sportingnews has Jason Allen at 4.39 in the 40 yard dash and 3.81 in the 20 yard shuttle. That is a difference of "0.58" which according to Kirwan is a very good indication that Jason Allen is not only a straight a head speed demon but has the agility to not miss a beat as well.

Reading this thread reminded me of this article which I found when I googled it and thought it was a nice read.

There's 1 other article Pat wrote about "measuring power and explosion" which has some interesting players listed from last years draft.
Here's the article... http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/8322692

ckparrothead
03-11-2006, 03:28 PM
Lawson and Wimbley are up there.

Why did Nande overtake Hawk? Different sums?

Hmm. Hard to say. Probably because the influx of DE/OLB guys just changed the medians enough to where Nande got that extra .03 over Hawk.

vmarcilfan75
03-11-2006, 04:24 PM
hey CK im in a mock draft and was wondering if Lawson would fit the the Rams Defense or is he more of a 3-4 type player?

Im trying to be realistic at whom the Rams would be pick. Oh BTW its the Rams 2nd round pick and ML is still available. :rolleyes2

ckparrothead
03-11-2006, 05:22 PM
hey CK im in a mock draft and was wondering if Lawson would fit the the Rams Defense or is he more of a 3-4 type player?

Im trying to be realistic at whom the Rams would be pick. Oh BTW its the Rams 2nd round pick and ML is still available. :rolleyes2

Good lord. Well, the Rams have Jim Haslett as their DC and if I'm not mistaken he ran a 3-4 in Pittsburgh...so if they aren't running a 3-4 this year in St. Louis they'll be running a similar 4-3/3-4 hybrid like we do.

And since Manny Lawson is a consideration in our D, he should be a consideration in theirs. If you have to do a write-up of your reasons why you take Lawson, then concentrate on the two things...Haslett running a defense a lot like Saban runs, and the fact that Lawson should NEVER have fallen that far.