PDA

View Full Version : Interesting Take On Vince Young....



NJPHIN34
03-09-2006, 08:36 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060309

Silverphin
03-09-2006, 08:59 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060309

:rolleyes2

What does the media have against Young all of a sudden.

Agent51
03-09-2006, 09:07 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060309

I was just coming hear to start a threadt about that BS article. I actually emailed the guy AND posted a response to it in their little "replay to Page 2" section. This is what I wrote, copy/pasted word for word:

"How can you write this personal attack on Vince Young, and that's what it is, a personal attack, and expect it to be taken seriously? OK, so maybe Vince Young doesn't have the brain to be a Peyton Manning, but that doesn't mean he can't be a starter, and a great one. Do you think Donovan McNabb can't cut it as a NFL QB? Donovan got a 12, then a 16 on the retake. How about Dan Marino, arguably the best QB EVER, his score was a 15, same with Jim Kelly and Terry Bradshaw. High scores don't make you a great QB, ask career 3rd-stringer Sage Rosenfels, who scored a 32. How about the great Hugh Millen (WHO!?) who scored a 41. Jason Maas of Oregon? 43. Drew Henson? 41. The point is the wonderlic doesn't prove much in terms of QB ability. I'm not saying Vince will be a HoF QB, I'm not saying Vince will be a career backup, I'm just saying to base how he will be at NFL QB on his wonderlic and off-field dress and whom he choses to hang out with has NOTHING to do with how he will play the position, just ask Ron Mexico *ahem* I mean Michael Vick."

Pennington's Rocket Arm
03-09-2006, 09:15 PM
sounds good to me.

LIQUID24
03-09-2006, 09:29 PM
Bravo Jason Whitlock.

playmaker1
03-09-2006, 09:34 PM
not our concern in miami, he aint comin here

PhinSoldia
03-09-2006, 09:48 PM
wow i was just coming here to post....all i can say is BRAVO

PhinSoldia
03-09-2006, 09:50 PM
I was just coming hear to start a threadt about that BS article. I actually emailed the guy AND posted a response to it in their little "replay to Page 2" section. This is what I wrote, copy/pasted word for word:

"How can you write this personal attack on Vince Young, and that's what it is, a personal attack, and expect it to be taken seriously? OK, so maybe Vince Young doesn't have the brain to be a Peyton Manning, but that doesn't mean he can't be a starter, and a great one. Do you think Donovan McNabb can't cut it as a NFL QB? Donovan got a 12, then a 16 on the retake. How about Dan Marino, arguably the best QB EVER, his score was a 15, same with Jim Kelly and Terry Bradshaw. High scores don't make you a great QB, ask career 3rd-stringer Sage Rosenfels, who scored a 32. How about the great Hugh Millen (WHO!?) who scored a 41. Jason Maas of Oregon? 43. Drew Henson? 41. The point is the wonderlic doesn't prove much in terms of QB ability. I'm not saying Vince will be a HoF QB, I'm not saying Vince will be a career backup, I'm just saying to base how he will be at NFL QB on his wonderlic and off-field dress and whom he choses to hang out with has NOTHING to do with how he will play the position, just ask Ron Mexico *ahem* I mean Michael Vick."

clearly this wasnt "just" another attack on his wonderlic score....we all know he is as dumb as nails but the writter pointed out alot of the little things that we dont see that GMs and coaches pay attention to

Silverphin
03-09-2006, 09:58 PM
Bravo for what?

As soon as I saw "humility," I knew this article was bull****.



Humility is the No. 1 ingredient.


Vince Young specifically said that whoever drafts him, he won't hold out. Isn't that humility?



The fact that Young had to take the Wonderlic twice in order to score a 16 is an indication to me that Young did not prepare for the test, particularly the first time. That speaks to Young's arrogance.


What about Donovan McNabb? It took him two times to score a 16. Is he arrogant also? I mean he must be. Despite the fact you never heard about any coach or teammate (not counting T.O.) complain about him, he must be arrogant if he took the Wonderlic twice, right?

So what? Everybody calling him out because he's doing what he usually does and hanging who he usually hangs out with.

This is a personal attack. Nothing more.

Agent51
03-09-2006, 10:04 PM
clearly this wasnt "just" another attack on his wonderlic score....we all know he is as dumb as nails but the writter pointed out alot of the little things that we dont see that GMs and coaches pay attention to

He was pointing out that he dresses like an NBA player, which I guess he is implying is "thugged out" except i've seen plenty of NFL players dress like that, I see Mike Vick on TV all the time in huge white T-shirts, doo rags and "bling" and HE is an NFL QB, one that is in the public eye a lot too.

Also, the fact that Vince "hangs with a posse" "makes him a bad decision maker" is ridiculous, he is a popular big-time athlete who has friends, so freakin' what? So he picked an agent who is a friend? Big Deal, he prolly trusts him more and figures he has his best interest in mind as opposed to trusting a complete stranger to handle his millions. So his agent has no experience? What's his point, every agent in the league started with no experience at one point.

My point it, while I'm sure the people in the league would rather see Vince ALWAYS wear a suit and tie or whatever, the fact that he doesn't and that he hangs out with a lot of people and that he picked someone really close to him to be his agent has NOTHING to do with his ability to read an NFL defense, which is what that guy is basically trying to say.

If they wanna scrutinize a players every little move and say it will make him a crappy NFL QB why not look at Matt Leinart. Why is he not under fire for going back his senior year just to "live the life" of the popular college QB who gets all the girls and only has to take one class and who has the nerve to say he still thinks USC is better than Texas even after the lost the Rose Bowl. Him doing that was a poor decision, and look, it cost him millions and showed a lot of immaturiy, however, it doesn't mean he won't be able to read an NFL defense.

DcRy82
03-09-2006, 10:11 PM
so he is supposed to change his friends just because he is going to the NFL.. You people who and that **** who wrote the article are the ***holes that would ditch your longterm friends for fame. what vince shows me by showing up with his "posse" is that he is real(not a fake person) and that going to the NFL is not going to change who his friends are.. i dont know his friends and neither do any of you and neither do any of the "GMs, coaches, or owners", but whether his friends dont do the right things or not doesnt mean he doesnt do the right things. that whole article was an opinion of someone, not as if there was any fact in there what so ever other than his wonderlic score.. nobody knows what is going on inside vince's head besides vince. and it is commom for people to have a family friend (someone they are comfortable with to help them manage their money) represent them. i would rather my best friend or my mom or dad be my agent rather than some money hungry douchebag. so good for all you ***** that said "bravo" for the things that journalist wrote when none of you know anything about him as a person or how he will be as a pro.. you know what? i hope vince sees all of this bull and uses it as fuel for the fire...

DcRy82
03-09-2006, 10:16 PM
P.S. i love the dolphins w/ everything, but i hope we play against Vince and he absolutely TORCHES us ( but we still win) just so you people can put your foot in your mouths and the reason i want it to be against us is so you can see it first hand

Agent51
03-09-2006, 10:17 PM
so he is supposed to change his friends just because he is going to the NFL.. You people who and that **** who wrote the article are the ***holes that would ditch your longterm friends for fame. what vince shows me by showing up with his "posse" is that he is real(not a fake person) and that going to the NFL is not going to change who his friends are.. i dont know his friends and neither do any of you and neither do any of the "GMs, coaches, or owners", but whether his friends dont do the right things or not doesnt mean he doesnt do the right things. that whole article was an opinion of someone, not as if there was any fact in there what so ever other than his wonderlic score.. nobody knows what is going on inside vince's head besides vince. and it is commom for people to have a family friend (someone they are comfortable with to help them manage their money) represent them. i would rather my best friend or my mom or dad be my agent rather than some money hungry douchebag. so good for all you ***** that said "bravo" for the things that journalist wrote when none of you know anything about him as a person or how he will be as a pro.. you know what? i hope vince sees all of this bull and uses it as fuel for the fire...

and to THAT I say "bravo"

Good post, pretty much exactly what I was saying, you just made better use of the profanity filter than I did :lol:

Agent51
03-09-2006, 10:22 PM
P.S. i love the dolphins w/ everything, but i hope we play against Vince and he absolutely TORCHES us ( but we still win) just so you people can put your foot in your mouths and the reason i want it to be against us is so you can see it first hand

Well I wouldn't go THAT far, but I will say that, even though I am not hoping for us to draft Vince, I wouldn't be mad if we got him, and I hope he has a great career, gotta support him, he's the QB that lead my team to the national title. People said the same things about him in college til he tore it up. I KNOW college is much different, but people bashed on him SO bad going into the Rose Bowl, saying he put up big numbers against crappy teams. Well, he won the Ohio State game, and he won the Rose Bowl. USC is about as close to a pro team as you can get without actually BEING a pro team. Pro-style offense and defense, pro-style coaches, basically the whole team is full of pro-calibur players, most 1st or 2nd rounders, and yet Vince still beat em. Hmmmmmmmmm. I'm not saying he will be great, I'm just saying he isn't gonna be THAT bad, as bad as peopel make him out to be. Besides, my rebuttle was definding Vince as a character and saying that what he does off the field doesn't effect his abiltiy to read defenses/make on field decisions like that idiot was trying to say.

DcRy82
03-09-2006, 10:25 PM
yea but there are a lot of bull headed people on this board that have blind opinions and it drives me nuts

Agent51
03-09-2006, 10:34 PM
yea but there are a lot of bull headed people on this board that have blind opinions and it drives me nuts

Oh same here man, same here, I won't touch the main forum with a 10 foot pole anymore, and when I first became a memeber that's where I spent 98% of my time, now I don't even open it, haven't in months.

LIQUID24
03-09-2006, 10:42 PM
Not really in an arguing mood, but I'll make a few points.

1 - Did Donovan McNabb ever score a 6 on his first try? Not that I know of. Scoring a 6 on on his first try means he either didn't give a **** about the test, or he's just plain stupid. Either one is bad.

2 - Picking a friend or inexprienced agent may not big deal if you're a projected 6-7th rounder. But when you're a big time QB, and a possible top-5 pick, it is. It's a sign of immaturity IMO.

3 - Matt Leinart HAS taken a lot of grief for coming back. You better believe it's one of the first questions scouts ask him when he's interviewed. And yeah, Leinart saying USC was still better after losing was pretty dumb, but it was right after the game while he was still emotional. The guy isn't used to losing, and he made a dumb comment.

I don't wanna come across as a total hater, I still have Vince as my #3 QB behind Leinart and Cutler. Every QB has question marks, I just have a lot MORE questions about Vince than the other two. Too many to take him in the first round.

Haha, I love this. Everyone is so passionate about their guy, be it Young, Cutler or Leinart.:tongue:

Motion
03-09-2006, 10:44 PM
yea but there are a lot of bull headed people on this board that have blind opinions and it drives me nuts

To each their own. I can respect your opinion on people talking about what kind of person he is, but you have no right to criticize someone for their opinion on him as a player and call them "bull headed".

PhinSoldia
03-10-2006, 01:06 AM
so he is supposed to change his friends just because he is going to the NFL.. You people who and that **** who wrote the article are the ***holes that would ditch your longterm friends for fame. what vince shows me by showing up with his "posse" is that he is real(not a fake person) and that going to the NFL is not going to change who his friends are.. i dont know his friends and neither do any of you and neither do any of the "GMs, coaches, or owners", but whether his friends dont do the right things or not doesnt mean he doesnt do the right things. that whole article was an opinion of someone, not as if there was any fact in there what so ever other than his wonderlic score.. nobody knows what is going on inside vince's head besides vince. and it is commom for people to have a family friend (someone they are comfortable with to help them manage their money) represent them. i would rather my best friend or my mom or dad be my agent rather than some money hungry douchebag. so good for all you ***** that said "bravo" for the things that journalist wrote when none of you know anything about him as a person or how he will be as a pro.. you know what? i hope vince sees all of this bull and uses it as fuel for the fire...


:sidelol: :sidelol: you and your drugs

PhinSoldia
03-10-2006, 01:10 AM
Oh same here man, same here, I won't touch the main forum with a 10 foot pole anymore, and when I first became a memeber that's where I spent 98% of my time, now I don't even open it, haven't in months.

so i see your here for the great dolphin fans that love thier team....

PhinSoldia
03-10-2006, 01:12 AM
Not really in an arguing mood, but I'll make a few points.

1 - Did Donovan McNabb ever score a 6 on his first try? Not that I know of. Scoring a 6 on on his first try means he either didn't give a **** about the test, or he's just plain stupid. Either one is bad.

2 - Picking a friend or inexprienced agent may not big deal if you're a projected 6-7th rounder. But when you're a big time QB, and a possible top-5 pick, it is. It's a sign of immaturity IMO.

3 - Matt Leinart HAS taken a lot of grief for coming back. You better believe it's one of the first questions scouts ask him when he's interviewed. And yeah, Leinart saying USC was still better after losing was pretty dumb, but it was right after the game while he was still emotional. The guy isn't used to losing, and he made a dumb comment.

I don't wanna come across as a total hater, I still have Vince as my #3 QB behind Leinart and Cutler. Every QB has question marks, I just have a lot MORE questions about Vince than the other two. Too many to take him in the first round.

Haha, I love this. Everyone is so passionate about their guy, be it Young, Cutler or Leinart.:tongue:

hmm smart guy

PhinsPhan
03-10-2006, 05:44 AM
I thought Young was amazing against USC. After that game I thought Young should be the number 1 pick. But there are real issues here that you can't just pass off on personal attacks. The 6 is a big deal. Very big. Not every coach or scout even uses the wonderlic but that is considering the guy scores a 20. Which isnt even that great. If you were to guess on every single question you should get between 12 and 13 right. 6 does show apathy, and this is very important. Braylon Edwards like alot of other players train for months prior to the combine just to improve their 40 time by fractions of a second. That shows dedication and a good work ethic.

I thought the article was good and he was mostly saying what NFL GMs would see, and personally I think he might be right. If Young prepared for the tests he was about to incur the Texans would be seriously looking at him. Run a 4.4 40, impress in interviews, show off his dedication as he trains for his pro day, and score decent on the Wonderlic. He has yet to do any of that and it has ruined his stock.

ZolarZ_GoPhins
03-10-2006, 08:03 AM
V. Young is a young man just out of college and looking to get paid millions of dollars to play a game. He is high on life, after winning the National Championship and being talked about possibly going #1 in the draft. I am sure he wasn't thinking relative to what actually is involved in this process.

The biggest mistake he made was his agent. His family or someone should have advised him better. If he had a professional representing and giving him good advise none of this would an issue. After Texas beat USC his stock could not have been higher, the only way to go was stand pat or go down.

I think the guy has huge potential and someone will get him alot cheaper now. No one really knows if he will be a great NFL QB. He is at least a freakish athlete that can throw a mean football.

I fault him for not realizing the business side of the NFL. His biggest problem right now is his nonchalaunt attitude. Maybe that transforms to confidence on the field, or maybe it shows a sign of bad decisions yet to come.

KB21
03-10-2006, 10:16 AM
I applaud Jason Whitlock for this article. Most reporters are taking the politically correct view on Young, pumping him up due to the social conscious over a black quarterback. Whitlock brings up great points in this article. He doesn't mention the fact that Young has no chance to play quarterback in the NFL because he's not a passer, but he makes great points.

Young proved his mentality when Mack Brown had to dumb down his offensive system for him. He's horrible with his mechanics, and he's been in an offense that has given him one read and the green light to run. I'd draft him, but only as a wide receiver. He won't cut it in the NFL as a quarterback. He's nothing but another hyped up Michael Vick.

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 11:26 AM
this is one of the absolutely weirdest offseasons in terms of hype in recent memory.

1) Jay Cutler rockets up draft boards for doing absolutely nothing. The guy throws off his back foot all day long, makes some bad decisions here and there, never won a big game, and people are talking about him as the best QB in the draft?

2) Vince Young is dropping on draft boards for doing too much. The guy leads the NCAA is passer rating, has freakish mobility, and single-handedly beat USC for the national title, a team that the EPSN think-tank considered declaring the best team of all time just before the Rose Bowl. Texas was nothing without him. Then he messes up a few geometry and algebra puzzles? C'mon...

Let Vince fall to #16. I'd love to have him here.

Rixon
03-10-2006, 11:36 AM
this is one of the absolutely weirdest offseasons in terms of hype in recent memory.

1) Jay Cutler rockets up draft boards for doing absolutely nothing. The guy throws off his back foot all day long, makes some bad decisions here and there, never won a big game, and people are talking about him as the best QB in the draft?

2) Vince Young is dropping on draft boards for doing too much. The guy leads the NCAA is passer rating, has freakish mobility, and single-handedly beat USC for the national title, a team that the EPSN think-tank considered declaring the best team of all time just before the Rose Bowl. Texas was nothing without him. Then he messes up a few geometry and algebra puzzles? C'mon...

Let Vince fall to #16. I'd love to have him here.






Id love it too. Lets hope everyone keeps bashing the guy

X-FACTOR
03-10-2006, 12:55 PM
P.S. i love the dolphins w/ everything, but i hope we play against Vince and he absolutely TORCHES us ( but we still win) just so you people can put your foot in your mouths and the reason i want it to be against us is so you can see it first hand


I've been thinking the same thing for a while now!!!:yeahthat:

The man has a "presence" about him that you don't normally see in many Q.B.'s
Men like Brady, Favre (spelling), Moon, Montana and BIG DAN are just "God Gifted" winners and they were born to be that way.
I believe that Vince will take all of the criticisim and use it as fuel for the fire and become a very successful Q.B. in the NFL.
It's a spiritual thing........that "presence" he has will determine and guide his abilities.
Just Watch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Yes Sir We'll Be Back"........................

Peace...................................

Motion
03-10-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm just wondering if all you guys will be around if/when he falls on his face. Theres two sides to every story.

FinaticalOne
03-10-2006, 01:19 PM
2 - Picking a friend or inexprienced agent may not big deal if you're a projected 6-7th rounder. But when you're a big time QB, and a possible top-5 pick, it is. It's a sign of immaturity IMO.


I see you points to your post, but I want to address one of your points from your post I quoted above. Now hiring a friend has happened before in the NFL, and there was no problem with it. One person that comes to mind that did this is former Atlanta Falcons QB Steve Bartkowski, and we all know how good he was in college and the pros. He hired his best friend/college roommate to be his agent and handle his contracts.

I'm not trying to debate with you, but it's happened before and it worked out for the best for both of them. Steve Bartkowski had someone he trust handling his money, and his best friend's career as a sports agent was launched by handling a big name football players contract. So I have to disagree with you as a sign of immaturity becasue I don't see Steve Bartkowski as immature. It is a complex situation and the thing can blow up in his face, but don't you think we should see what happens before we judge him on this one point?

Pennington's Rocket Arm
03-10-2006, 01:29 PM
Young proved his mentality when Mack Brown had to dumb down his offensive system for him. He's horrible with his mechanics, and he's been in an offense that has given him one read and the green light to run.
funny that the young fans don't bring this up.

nick1
03-10-2006, 02:30 PM
ESPN is a bunch of haters

Agent51
03-10-2006, 02:55 PM
Not really in an arguing mood, but I'll make a few points.

1 - Did Donovan McNabb ever score a 6 on his first try? Not that I know of. Scoring a 6 on on his first try means he either didn't give a **** about the test, or he's just plain stupid. Either one is bad.

2 - Picking a friend or inexprienced agent may not big deal if you're a projected 6-7th rounder. But when you're a big time QB, and a possible top-5 pick, it is. It's a sign of immaturity IMO.

3 - Matt Leinart HAS taken a lot of grief for coming back. You better believe it's one of the first questions scouts ask him when he's interviewed. And yeah, Leinart saying USC was still better after losing was pretty dumb, but it was right after the game while he was still emotional. The guy isn't used to losing, and he made a dumb comment.

I don't wanna come across as a total hater, I still have Vince as my #3 QB behind Leinart and Cutler. Every QB has question marks, I just have a lot MORE questions about Vince than the other two. Too many to take him in the first round.

Haha, I love this. Everyone is so passionate about their guy, be it Young, Cutler or Leinart.:tongue:

1 - No, he didn't, but Vince made a bigger improvement than McNabb between the two tries. I never said 6 wasn't low, very low, but the point is he scored higher the second time around, and he scored higher, or close to, some hall of fame QBs and some great QBs of current (most people consider Donovan a great QB). PLus you can't say because he scored a 6 (or whatever it may have been) the first time around that he didn't give a **** about it, a number of things could have caused a 6. Also, have you ever SEEN the wonderlic? I have, and I've taken it (got a 41) and it has NOTHING to do with football, yea, it shows quick and logical thinking, but I know when I was taking it some questions made me pause and go WTF? And not because I didn't know them, but because they were so stupid I was wondering what place they had on the test. Like I said, 6 was low, but he DID get a higher score the next time around, more than doubled it in fact, went from 6 to 16, Donovan went from 12 to 16, an improvement of only 4 compared to Vince's 10, both knew what to expect the 2nd time around, so I believe Donovan should have gotten more than a 4 point improvement if he is "smarter" than Vince and Vince improved 10. And looking back at history a low score doesn't mean a crappy QB and a high score doesn't mean a good QB so it's a pretty moot point. Vince scored Higher than Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Terry Bradshaw etc etc, all HoF QBs. And actually, according to http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm Donovan only scored a 14, so that's only a TWO point improvement.

2 - How is it a sign of immaturity if you're a 1st rounder but NOT if you're a late-rounder? That is ridiculous, I would do the same thing, I'd be the first one to pick someone I trusted to negoatiate my stuff as opposed to some guy that keeps telling em to hold out for more money just so HE can make more money. People do it all the time, be it in sports or other branches of entertainment. Off the top of my head I can think of Usher, Beyonce, Destiny's Child, Jessica Simpson, Britney Spears (before she turned all white trash) all those are very succsessful artists and all have parents as managers. Plus, the guy IS a lawyer, and there ARE agents in his firm and that he works with that could advise him shoudl he need help, it's not like Vince just picked some guy from his "posse" to be his manager, the guy knows the lagal lingo and technicalities and laws and contract wording etc etc.

3 - I didn't say Leinart HASN'T taken flak, but he doesn't have "character" article written about him, saying he can't read a defense because he wears bling and hangs with his friends etc etc.

All I'm saying is yes, there are questions about Vince at the next level, but they should be questions about his mechanics and on field decision making that effect how people think he will transfer over to an NFL QB, not because of who he hires as an agent and how he dresses/who he hangs out with, which is what that article said. There was nothing in there about his actual play, it was all about how his off-field life makes him a crappy on field QB :confused: Pointless.

And I'm not a Vince Young guy either, yeah, he was the QB for my favorite college team, but my favorite QB in the draft is still Cutler. I wouldn't mind Vince, but I'm definately not one of the people begging for him, I have my questions about how he will perform in the NFL, but my questions come from watching his on field play, not looking at his personal life and making dumb comments like "I saw Vince eat 4 Big Macs at McDonald's so that makes him too fat to escape NFL linemen and therefore he will fail at QB" or other ridiculous comments. I know the article didn't say that Big Mac thing, but that's basically how outlandsih the article was.


so i see your here for the great dolphin fans that love thier team....

The ones that are great and do love their team I respect, unfortunately there are tons of people who have no idea what the game of football is like or how the NFL works or have no respect for their team. Just look at the main board during the season, a classic example is how Ronnie has a bad week and suddenly everyone "told you so" that he'd be a bust and Saban made a bad pick, then Ronnie has a good week and those SAME people are like "I TOLD you he wasn't a bust and was a great pic, awesome job Saban". That is just one of MANY examples. I'm not bashing anyone's opinion, but make one and STICK TO IT, I HATE how people just go with the "flavor of the week" as their choice. For awhile everyone was all over Cutler, then Vince declared and everyone was all over him, then Cutler got more hyuped at the senior bowl and suddenly Vince sucked etc etc. People just go so far back and forth it's ridiculous. And not everyone, there are some great posters, unfortunately a lot of them don't go to the main forum anymore either, for the same reasons.

ckparrothead
03-10-2006, 03:30 PM
People who sit here and defend scoring a 6 on the wonderlic have obviously never taken the damn thing and been asked to simply write down the name of the 7th month of the year, or add 1/4th plus 1/6th.

The guy's a ****ing idiot. I don't care, there are lots of ****ing idiots in the world that are great people. Just not great NFL quarterbacks.

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 03:55 PM
People who sit here and defend scoring a 6 on the wonderlic have obviously never taken the damn thing and been asked to simply write down the name of the 7th month of the year, or add 1/4th plus 1/6th.

The guy's a ****ing idiot. I don't care, there are lots of ****ing idiots in the world that are great people. Just not great NFL quarterbacks.

whoa, calm down. I refer you to the last bastion of truth and reason for a fair and balanced article on Young's bad Wonderlic score.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45976

Philter25
03-10-2006, 03:56 PM
People who sit here and defend scoring a 6 on the wonderlic have obviously never taken the damn thing and been asked to simply write down the name of the 7th month of the year, or add 1/4th plus 1/6th.


June and 1/8th.... whats the big deal?

Philter25
03-10-2006, 03:59 PM
whoa, calm down. I refer you to the last bastion of truth and reason for a fair and balanced article on Young's bad Wonderlic score.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45976

This is the article of truth, because it shows examples of guys who are the minority example. :rolleyes2 Hey, if you wanna take a chance on an idiot playing QB, thats cool with me, im just going to play the percentages.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/01/young3ce-1.jpg

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 04:01 PM
This is the article of truth, because it shows examples of guys who are the minority example. :rolleyes2 Hey, if you wanna take a chance on an idiot playing QB, thats cool with me, im just going to play the percentages.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5655/young3ce.jpg

philter25, you do realize this is a joke article, right?

ckparrothead
03-10-2006, 04:11 PM
whoa, calm down. I refer you to the last bastion of truth and reason for a fair and balanced article on Young's bad Wonderlic score.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45976

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was enraged or over excited about anything. I'm one of those people that has a potty mouth such that he can be cursing during a completely calm moment, lol.

BTW, Jason Whitlock didn't even touch on HALF of the bad decisions Vince has made since the Rose Bowl.

I agree that sometimes there's being smart and there's being wise. Unfortunately, Vince is neither smart nor wise.

Philter25
03-10-2006, 04:13 PM
philter25, you do realize this is a joke article, right? Yes I do, hence my picture.

However there are a handful of guys on here who will argue that Marino scored a 14 and texas didnt run down a dumbed down offense and Young's mechanics arent a problem because other guys with mechanics problems play in the NFL and Vick is a running QB like Young etc etc etc and discuss the minority exceptions of guys who scored crappy on the wonderlic, who arent good passers, etc etc etc who succeeded in the NFL. Which is what my comment was directed at, not you. I only quoted you because that contained the link....... hope that clears it up.

ckparrothead
03-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Are there guys that have scored low on the wonderlic and still made it in the NFL? Yes.

Are there guys that ran the ball 35 to 40% of every time they touched the ball in college and made it in the pros? Yes.

Are there guys that had awkward throwing motions that made it in the NFL? Yes.

Are there guys that converted from a shotgun zone-read offense that made it in the NFL? Yes.

But...are there any guys that scored extremely low on the wonderlic, came from a shotgun zone-read offense, have awkward deliveries, and that ran the ball 35-40% of the time that made it as pro quarterbacks? No.

How many traditional deal-breakers can a guy gather into one prospect? The only thing missing would be if Vince had an arm like a wet noodle, and was 5'9" tall.

Agent51
03-10-2006, 04:57 PM
People who sit here and defend scoring a 6 on the wonderlic have obviously never taken the damn thing and been asked to simply write down the name of the 7th month of the year, or add 1/4th plus 1/6th.

The guy's a ****ing idiot. I don't care, there are lots of ****ing idiots in the world that are great people. Just not great NFL quarterbacks.

I'm not defending Vince's 6 score, so I hope you aren't referring to me there. I am defending the fact that he IMPROVED and that the reason the author said he would fail at QB is ridiculous, and yes, I HAVE taken the wonderlic, I scored a 41. Does that mean it's easy or hard, or that I'd make a better thinking QB than anyone else? No, it just means I am good at test taking, I scored a 1440 on the SAT, that is 160 shy of perfect, doesn't mean I'm a rocket scientist though. I scored higher than the valedictorian of my class and yet SHE got a full academic scholarship to MIT, test don't mean very much and aren't an accurate measure of one's abilities, especially ones ability to play football. I KNOW there are many questions about Vince's style and play and ability to run a complex offense, THAT I am not disputing, and if that lame article had stated THOSE reasons as to why he would fail or struggle than I wouldn't have had much to say, because it would have been correct, there ARE questions about his mechanics and defense reading skills, and he did run a "dumbed down" offense at Texas, I am a diehard Longhorn fan and I'll be the first to admit their offense wasn't complex. HOWEVER, the article clearly states that Vince can't read and NFL defense "because he has a posse, wears bling, and has a friend as an agent". THAT is complete BS. MAYBE those aren't the best choices for him, but they in NO WAY effect his ability to read defenses. Again, yes, he DOES have to learn a LOT about reading defenses, but he would have to do that regardless of whether or not he "wears bling and has a posse" or if he picked a seasoned agent or a newbie.

As far as philter and arguing that Marino's low score was in the minority, yeah, but they are EXAMPLES. It's just funny that SO much is made of the wonderlic when three HoF QBs scored LOWER than Vince. I'm not defending Vince's score, or saying he is a better/smarter QB, I'm trying to show the wonderlic doesn't mean much. Peyton Manning only got a 28 or something like that, that is middle ground for the test. MOST of the GOOD QBs in the NFl scored in the 20s. Really BAD Qbs, the career 2nd and 3rd stringers and QBs that never even made it in the league scroed super high and really GOOD QBs, either current or retired and in the HoF or headed there, scored pretty low. I personally am not defending Vince Young or his score, I am just trying to prove 2 things. 1, the article's points, while they may be valid for CHARACTER issues (which I don't see a problem with as many players have agents that are friends or family and "wear bling" and have a "posse") yet they by no means effect the way he reads defenses, and 2, the wonderlic, while designed to give an idea of quick thinking and logic abiltiy, doesn't mean too much nor is it a very accurate measure of how a QB will perform. If anything it shows that Vince can learn from a mistake and improve the second time around, as he scored a full 10 points higher, and the same could be said for any QB who scored low, retakes it, and improves significantly. People look at how low he scored the first time around and how the second time around he only managed a 16, but they fail to see how much of an improvement that is. I'm not even a supporter of him, for our team anyway, of course I will support him in the NFL since he got my Longhorns a National Championship, but I want Cutler or Huff/DB in round one, I'm just defending the guy cuz he is suddenly getting a huge bum rap over his wonderlic and who he picked as an agent. The agent choice doesn't even effect anyone but him, it just means he has the potential to lose money, and that's nobody's problem but his own, so what does it mater to anyone else?

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 05:12 PM
I have no time to debate whether or not an awkward throwing motion (to us) really 'matters' when it comes time to translate to NFL-ball, or whether playing out of the shotgun a lot 'matters', or what the 'right' ratio of passing to running is, or anything else. There's plenty of opinions floating around on that anyway.

The point is, all these red-flag sort of things existed a long long time before Young ever heard of a Wonderlic test. Yet, only now is the message board aflame with people's opinions of why Vince won't be able to cut it. It strikes me as ridiculous that a 12 minute test has become such a big deal, especially in light of all the other unorthodox stuff.

In my opinion, I don't care about any of it. If we miss out on Brees (and only Brees), then I would still draft Vince Young at #16 if he was there. Why? Because the guy is a natural-born winner and a clutch performer (forget USC, remember OSU??), and no one has ever been able to coach that.

PS. But Brady Quinn is still light-years ahead!!

Motion
03-10-2006, 05:17 PM
NEWS FLASH: Some people saw issues with Young LONG before any wonderlic test.

nick1
03-10-2006, 05:23 PM
People who sit here and defend scoring a 6 on the wonderlic have obviously never taken the damn thing and been asked to simply write down the name of the 7th month of the year, or add 1/4th plus 1/6th.

The guy's a ****ing idiot. I don't care, there are lots of ****ing idiots in the world that are great people. Just not great NFL quarterbacks.
he scored a 16 which is better than Marino scored and more recently McNabb, both of them are good QBs. that writer doesn't make any good points in his article and it's a known fact that he's in love with McNabb and Vick who are also "running QBs like him". Young isn't dumb, I expected more from someone like you :shakeno: but you just went on and on talking a bunch of crap

the guy got a degree from Texas thats a fact, no amout of tutoring would make a stupid person do that. you guys have no facts to back up saying he's dumb, he didn't get a 6 on the test.

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 05:23 PM
NEWS FLASH: Some people saw issues with Young LONG before any wonderlic test.

Sure, some did, but not everybody. Not like this, just in terms of the raw number of Vince Young posts, and the almost daily stream of articles on ESPN or SI, I'd say things have picked up quite a bit. It's not a stretch of the imagination that things are bordering on a really bad type of mob-mentality

Motion
03-10-2006, 05:25 PM
Sure, some did, but not everybody. Not like this, just in terms of the raw number of Vince Young posts, and the almost daily stream of articles on ESPN or SI, I'd say things have picked up quite a bit. It's not a stretch of the imagination that things are bordering on a really bad type of mob-mentality

In regards to the media yes I agree 100%. They went from being all up on his jock to kicking him in the jock overnight.

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 05:30 PM
hey speedrush99, are you a Gator? I graduated in 2004, had a great time watching the games down there in Gainesville. really miss it

ckparrothead
03-10-2006, 07:37 PM
I'm not defending Vince's 6 score, so I hope you aren't referring to me there. I am defending the fact that he IMPROVED and that the reason the author said he would fail at QB is ridiculous, and yes, I HAVE taken the wonderlic, I scored a 41. Does that mean it's easy or hard, or that I'd make a better thinking QB than anyone else? No, it just means I am good at test taking, I scored a 1440 on the SAT, that is 160 shy of perfect, doesn't mean I'm a rocket scientist though. I scored higher than the valedictorian of my class and yet SHE got a full academic scholarship to MIT, test don't mean very much and aren't an accurate measure of one's abilities, especially ones ability to play football. I KNOW there are many questions about Vince's style and play and ability to run a complex offense, THAT I am not disputing, and if that lame article had stated THOSE reasons as to why he would fail or struggle than I wouldn't have had much to say, because it would have been correct, there ARE questions about his mechanics and defense reading skills, and he did run a "dumbed down" offense at Texas, I am a diehard Longhorn fan and I'll be the first to admit their offense wasn't complex. HOWEVER, the article clearly states that Vince can't read and NFL defense "because he has a posse, wears bling, and has a friend as an agent". THAT is complete BS. MAYBE those aren't the best choices for him, but they in NO WAY effect his ability to read defenses. Again, yes, he DOES have to learn a LOT about reading defenses, but he would have to do that regardless of whether or not he "wears bling and has a posse" or if he picked a seasoned agent or a newbie.

As far as philter and arguing that Marino's low score was in the minority, yeah, but they are EXAMPLES. It's just funny that SO much is made of the wonderlic when three HoF QBs scored LOWER than Vince. I'm not defending Vince's score, or saying he is a better/smarter QB, I'm trying to show the wonderlic doesn't mean much. Peyton Manning only got a 28 or something like that, that is middle ground for the test. MOST of the GOOD QBs in the NFl scored in the 20s. Really BAD Qbs, the career 2nd and 3rd stringers and QBs that never even made it in the league scroed super high and really GOOD QBs, either current or retired and in the HoF or headed there, scored pretty low. I personally am not defending Vince Young or his score, I am just trying to prove 2 things. 1, the article's points, while they may be valid for CHARACTER issues (which I don't see a problem with as many players have agents that are friends or family and "wear bling" and have a "posse") yet they by no means effect the way he reads defenses, and 2, the wonderlic, while designed to give an idea of quick thinking and logic abiltiy, doesn't mean too much nor is it a very accurate measure of how a QB will perform. If anything it shows that Vince can learn from a mistake and improve the second time around, as he scored a full 10 points higher, and the same could be said for any QB who scored low, retakes it, and improves significantly. People look at how low he scored the first time around and how the second time around he only managed a 16, but they fail to see how much of an improvement that is. I'm not even a supporter of him, for our team anyway, of course I will support him in the NFL since he got my Longhorns a National Championship, but I want Cutler or Huff/DB in round one, I'm just defending the guy cuz he is suddenly getting a huge bum rap over his wonderlic and who he picked as an agent. The agent choice doesn't even effect anyone but him, it just means he has the potential to lose money, and that's nobody's problem but his own, so what does it mater to anyone else?

For someone so smart how do you not see the point of the article?

The POINT of the article, is that Vince is not ready to be a professional quarterback, ie. the face of the franchise....hence the title, Not Ready For Prime Time. The POINT of the article is that Vince is not showing the WISDOM to handle a job that requires a LOT of intangibles to be successful. Does Whitlock bring up reading a defense AT ALL? No. He openly wonders if Vince has the wisdom to handle the unique pressures associated with being the face of a multi-billion dollar corporation. He questions whether Vince has the commitment to be a film monkey and spend the copious amount of efforts necessary to maintain an edge week after week in the NFL.

The article said NOTHING about his lack of wisdom will prevent him from reading a defense.

Yes, Vince should have dressed up for his meeting with the president, in the white house.

No, he should not be traveling to all the NFL functions with his posse in tow, clearly showing that the man in charge of Young and his posse is some night club owner named 'Black'.

No, he should not have been a no-show for a fancy hodge-podge owners party during Super Bowl week in which he would have had the chance to dress up and impress his potential employers, but he was indeed a no-show and Mr. Whitlock didn't even bother bringing that one up.

No, he should not have been a no-show to an appointment he and his agent set with important corporate sponsors to discuss endorsement deals...but he was a no-show anyway.

No, he should not have hired Major Adams, the biggest joke of an agent since Ricky hired Master P, to be in charge of Vince Young's actions and image during an EXTREMELY important time period that could make or break his bank account. But, he hired him anyway.

No, he should not have gone spouting off at the mouth telling reporters how he'd throw at the Combine but wouldn't run because scouts know about his legs and don't need to see him run. But, he did that too. I'm sure scouts appreciated him telling them what they do and do not need to see.

No, he shouldn't have promised to throw at the Combine period. He should have known that it would have been wise not to stack his unusual mechanics and relatively unpolished throwing ability next to more classic and polished dropback passers.

No, he should not have backed down once he DID promise to throw at the Combine. That just made him look foolish, and emphasized what a foolish decision it was to go talking to the press in the first place.

Yes, he SHOULD have had his agent hire real NFL receivers to catch passes from him, instead of his homies, high school teammates who proceeded to run around like chickens with their heads cut off and make him look bad in pre-combine preparation workouts.

Yes, he SHOULD have hired a QB coach like Jerry Rhome WAY before a mere week prior to the Combine. But, he didn't.

Yes, he should have known he was going to take a wonderlic exam at the Combine, there is NO EXCUSE for not knowing, nor is there an excuse for not preparing for it.

Since the Rose Bowl Vince Young has been a walking, talking disaster zone. He has SAID and DONE all the WRONG things...and has NOT DONE all the RIGHT things.

He does NOT have the wisdom, commitment, or humility to handle the unique extra-curricular challenges associated with being a star QB in the NFL, and THAT was the point of the article.


As for SAT scores, maybe if you scored a 1540 like me, you'd have gotten the point of the article better. ;)

Pocoloco
03-10-2006, 07:57 PM
As for SAT scores, maybe if you scored a 1540 like me, you'd have gotten the point of the article better. ;)


:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: :0wned: :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol:

Agent51
03-10-2006, 11:14 PM
For someone so smart how do you not see the point of the article?

The POINT of the article, is that Vince is not ready to be a professional quarterback, ie. the face of the franchise....hence the title, Not Ready For Prime Time. The POINT of the article is that Vince is not showing the WISDOM to handle a job that requires a LOT of intangibles to be successful. Does Whitlock bring up reading a defense AT ALL? No. He openly wonders if Vince has the wisdom to handle the unique pressures associated with being the face of a multi-billion dollar corporation. He questions whether Vince has the commitment to be a film monkey and spend the copious amount of efforts necessary to maintain an edge week after week in the NFL.

The article said NOTHING about his lack of wisdom will prevent him from reading a defense.

Yes, Vince should have dressed up for his meeting with the president, in the white house.

No, he should not be traveling to all the NFL functions with his posse in tow, clearly showing that the man in charge of Young and his posse is some night club owner named 'Black'.

No, he should not have been a no-show for a fancy hodge-podge owners party during Super Bowl week in which he would have had the chance to dress up and impress his potential employers, but he was indeed a no-show and Mr. Whitlock didn't even bother bringing that one up.

No, he should not have been a no-show to an appointment he and his agent set with important corporate sponsors to discuss endorsement deals...but he was a no-show anyway.

No, he should not have hired Major Adams, the biggest joke of an agent since Ricky hired Master P, to be in charge of Vince Young's actions and image during an EXTREMELY important time period that could make or break his bank account. But, he hired him anyway.

No, he should not have gone spouting off at the mouth telling reporters how he'd throw at the Combine but wouldn't run because scouts know about his legs and don't need to see him run. But, he did that too. I'm sure scouts appreciated him telling them what they do and do not need to see.

No, he shouldn't have promised to throw at the Combine period. He should have known that it would have been wise not to stack his unusual mechanics and relatively unpolished throwing ability next to more classic and polished dropback passers.

No, he should not have backed down once he DID promise to throw at the Combine. That just made him look foolish, and emphasized what a foolish decision it was to go talking to the press in the first place.

Yes, he SHOULD have had his agent hire real NFL receivers to catch passes from him, instead of his homies, high school teammates who proceeded to run around like chickens with their heads cut off and make him look bad in pre-combine preparation workouts.

Yes, he SHOULD have hired a QB coach like Jerry Rhome WAY before a mere week prior to the Combine. But, he didn't.

Yes, he should have known he was going to take a wonderlic exam at the Combine, there is NO EXCUSE for not knowing, nor is there an excuse for not preparing for it.

Since the Rose Bowl Vince Young has been a walking, talking disaster zone. He has SAID and DONE all the WRONG things...and has NOT DONE all the RIGHT things.

He does NOT have the wisdom, commitment, or humility to handle the unique extra-curricular challenges associated with being a star QB in the NFL, and THAT was the point of the article.


As for SAT scores, maybe if you scored a 1540 like me, you'd have gotten the point of the article better. ;)

The POINT of the article is that Vince isn't NFL ready, yes, I already SAID I got that, HOWEVER, the REASONS the author gives are completely ridiculous. I don't care what you (not tryin to be a dick, lol), the author, or anyone says, how Vince Young, or ANYONE for that matter, dresses, who they hire for an agent, and if they hang out with a bunch of people or not has NOTHING TO DO with how he plays football, how many times do I, an others, have to say it? Yes, there are PLENTY of questions surrounding Vince, but all the points brought up in the article, and in your post, are CHARACTER issues, not football skill issues. OK, so MAYBE there are characters issues, I never disputed that (although I see nothing wrong with his decisions) but the author of the article was basically stateing that those "character issues" mean he can't read NFL defenses or win games in the NFL. I'm sorry but that has NOTHING TO DO with his dress and his agent. If the article were about his CHARACTER then yes, those would have been valid points, or if he used Vince's throwing motion and mechanics and lack of experience in a complex offense etc etc as examples as to why he can't play in the NFL then THOSE would have been valid points, HOWEVER, he mixed the two up, he wrote about his OFF-FIELD character means he won't be a good ON-FIELD player, they don't have anythign to do with each other. Ask Ray Lewis, he is a great LB and he had the murder charges, Michael Irvin and the coke charges, Mike Vick and the rape/sexual assault charges, Jamal Lewis and the drug trafficking charges, switching sports, Kobe Bryant and the rape charges, etc etc, all MUCH worse than the "character issues" surrounding Vince and yet all of them will be HoF player in their sports, or are at least all stars. And before you say Vince isn't as good as any of them (which has yet to be seen BTW) that wasn't my point. The point is all those great players had pretty bad off-field choices and yet they still have all-star caliber ON field performances, so why does the way Vince dresses, the fact that he chills with friends, and the fact that he picked a family friend as an agent make him a bad FOOTBALL player? IT DOESN'T. And that is all the artile said, those 3 points (wears "bling", has a "posse" and has an inexperienced agent) were the reason he can't play QB in the NFL :shakeno:

ckparrothead
03-10-2006, 11:22 PM
I'm sorry dude but you're seeing things that aren't there. His entire point, and indeed the title of his damn article, was that Vince is simply not ready for the spotlight, or "prime time" as he put it.

Agent51
03-11-2006, 12:00 AM
I'm sorry dude but you're seeing things that aren't there. His entire point, and indeed the title of his damn article, was that Vince is simply not ready for the spotlight, or "prime time" as he put it.

I'm sorry dude, but Im not seeing things that aren't there:

"The fact that Young had to take the Wonderlic twice in order to score a 16 is an indication to me that Young did not prepare for the test, particularly the first time. That speaks to Young's arrogance."

Beacuse he struggled on the test means he is arrogant? OK, so does that mean every other player who scroed low is/was arrogant too? Yea, a 6 is bad, but he improved TEN points, so give it a rest. Speaking of arrogance, how about Matt Leinart's "We are still better" quote after the Rose Bowl? That shows real "humility" there, bashing the team that just beat you on the biggest stage (in college terms) and saying you are still better just beacuse your college career didn't have it's fairy tale ending :shakeno:

"....So does his choice in representation and his decision to visit the president and the White House sans sports coat and tie.

Are you following me?...."

Again, yeah, he SHOULD have worn a sport coat and tie for the president, but how does that make him a bad football player?

"....When you have a chance at being the No. 1 overall pick in the draft, securing a $25 million signing bonus and landing one of the 32 most important jobs in professional sports, you don't pick a family friend and local criminal defense attorney (Major Adams) to head up your campaign. That's not keeping it real. It's foolish and arrogant. It raises questions about your decision-making and maturity....."

There's that "arrogant" word again. I'm glad that picking someone you TRUST makes you arrogant, I guess I'm arrogant too then because I would do the same thing. Also, what the HELL does it matter, if ANYTHING he will just make less money than he would with some "professional" agent. To me, if he is willing to take that chance then it shows money isn't the biggest factor to him, on top of the fact that he said WHOEVER he plays for he won't hold out, means he ISN'T arrogant and DID make a mature decision. Like I said, I'd pick someone close to me that I trust over a stranger who will try and convince me to hold out just so THEY get more money off you ANY day.

".... A seasoned agent might be able to explain to Young the difference between being an NFL quarterback and an NBA small forward.
Small forwards travel with posses decked out in white T's, bling bling and agents in sweat suits. NFL quarterbacks don't...."

SO beacuse h eplays in the NFL he can't walk around with his friends, or wear what he is comfotable in, or wear "bling bling" when you know that is the first thing pretty much EVERY athlete turning pro buys, what, is he supposed to buy it just to look at? Technically he would alway be in the public eye when not in his house, so does that mean no matter where he goes he needs a "sprt coat and tie" and can't wear "bling bling? Freakin' please. OOOO, he travels with friends, GOOD, it means he didn't get a big head and forget who his friends are now that he is set to be a multi-millionaire at 21 (or however old he is).

"....A starting NFL quarterback is the face of a billion-dollar corporation. He is one of the three or four highest-profile individuals in his city and perhaps in his state. His every move is cussed, discussed and analyzed by millions of people who don't have a clue about playing the position...."

I don't need to say anything more about that quote, because the author himself just said it all, "millions of people who DON'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT PLAYING THE POSITION", Jay Whitlock included, so basically anything he said before or says after holds no weight since he just said he doesn't have't a clue about playing the position, therefore it's all opinions on his part, not "Facts" like he is stating.

"....Before any NFL owner gives Young a bunch of guaranteed dollars, the general manager better make sure Young is going to hit the film room and practice field just as hard as Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb and Tom Brady. The GM also should make sure that the head coach and offensive coordinator -- not some let's-hit-the-strip-clubs posse member -- have the ear of the quarterback...."

LOL, are you kidding me? Donovan McNabb in the same sentance as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady? OK, too bad McNabb is the biggest dick EVER off the field, and he walks around in big white Ts and full of "bling bling" too, and I know this for a FACT because during the last Pro Bowl (not the one that just passed) he came to the club I work at. He is a COMPLETE jerk (for lack of a better, non-profanity word), and was all "blinged" out, where's the articles about that? He was the complete opposite of "humble" and not ANYTHING like he portrays on TV/in the media.

Looks like the stuff I "saw" WAS, in fact, in the article.

ckparrothead
03-11-2006, 12:05 AM
Again, NOWHERE in any of those quotes does it say what his abilities are on the football field. The focus of the article was entirely on his ability to handle he position from an INTANGIBLE perspective...his preparation (which ties to his commitment), his willingness to accept coaching (which ties to his humility), and his decision making ability OFF the field (a la Ryan Leaf).

I'm sorry if you can't see that. It is quite obvious.

Motion
03-11-2006, 08:19 AM
hey speedrush99, are you a Gator? I graduated in 2004, had a great time watching the games down there in Gainesville. really miss it

No, I wish, Just a huge fan.