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View Full Version : Red sox trade Bronsan arryoyo to reds for wily mo pena noooo.



Perfect23
03-20-2006, 05:47 PM
Man Im a reds fan and I dont like this trade at all Wily Mo pena was a future all-star outfielder red sox fans your lucky we have to deal with arryoyo lucky red sox fans.

RWhitney014
03-20-2006, 05:57 PM
Wily Mo hits bombs against lefties and nothing else. He is overrated. Cincinnati needed a competent starter badly and got an affordable, signed-for-three-years one for a spare part. And now there's a spot for Chris Denorfia, too. Good trade for Cincinnati.

Red Sox will enjoy a Nixon-Pena platoon, though. Good addition for them, but better deal for the Reds.

Perfect23
03-20-2006, 05:59 PM
Wily Mo hits bombs against lefties and nothing else. He is overrated. Cincinnati needed a competent starter badly and got an affordable, signed-for-three-years one for a spare part. And now there's a spot for Chris Denorfia, too. Good trade for Cincinnati.

Red Sox will enjoy a Nixon-Pena platoon, though. Good addition for them, but better deal for the Reds.

Nope no space for Denorfia because they are moving Adam Dunn to left and putting Scott Hatteberg at first so ne space for Denorfia.

RWhitney014
03-20-2006, 06:17 PM
Nope no space for Denorfia because they are moving Adam Dunn to left and putting Scott Hatteberg at first so ne space for Denorfia.

How much do you wanna bet that by the end of the season, unless Hatteberg has the season of his life, Dunn will be at first and Denorfia in left?

Dunn, Lopez, Encarnacion, and Denorfia are the offensive core for the Reds in the future, with Dunn the only possibility to be gone. They need to be less gunshy in dealing Kearns while he's en vogue for starting pitching, because any Reds fan knows the cupboard is bare in that department. Cincinnati can get away with less-than-spectacular offensive talent because of their home park and some of the other hitter-friendly parks the majority of the road games are played in (Minute Maid, Wrigley, and Miller are pretty good for offense).

Perfect23
03-20-2006, 08:17 PM
How much do you wanna bet that by the end of the season, unless Hatteberg has the season of his life, Dunn will be at first and Denorfia in left?

Dunn, Lopez, Encarnacion, and Denorfia are the offensive core for the Reds in the future, with Dunn the only possibility to be gone. They need to be less gunshy in dealing Kearns while he's en vogue for starting pitching, because any Reds fan knows the cupboard is bare in that department. Cincinnati can get away with less-than-spectacular offensive talent because of their home park and some of the other hitter-friendly parks the majority of the road games are played in (Minute Maid, Wrigley, and Miller are pretty good for offense).

I think you might be right.

Ray Finkle
03-20-2006, 09:11 PM
Wily Mo hits bombs against lefties and nothing else. He is overrated. Cincinnati needed a competent starter badly and got an affordable, signed-for-three-years one for a spare part. And now there's a spot for Chris Denorfia, too. Good trade for Cincinnati.

Red Sox will enjoy a Nixon-Pena platoon, though. Good addition for them, but better deal for the Reds.

I think the deal is pretty even now, but in the long run it helps out the Sox more. Wily Mo is only 24 years old and like you said he crushes left handed pitchers. This year he'll platoon with Nixon and also fill in for Manny and Coco if needed then he'll probably be the starting RFer in 2007 for the Sox depending on how well he does in Fenway. With a little leadership from guys like Ortiz (one of his friends) and Varitek and learning how to hit and take pitches from hitting coach Papa Jackson, the kid could turn into something special. He hit 51 HRs in less than 850 at bats in the big leagues so the kid has power. He has a lot of potential and with the right team, guys, atomsphere he can possibly shine (see Ortiz, David who actually had similiar numbers when he was 26 as does Pena, and no I'm not saying Pena will be the next Ortiz, far from it however the potential is there).

As for Arroyo, look I love the guy and I'm sad #61 won't be in Boston next year. He was a great guy with a rubber arm and never once complained about being a starter or reliever or whatever. But the truth is what you see with Arroyo is probably all you're going to get with him. He's an above average 4 or 5 start but that's it. He would dominate a team the 1st time he faced then but after the 2nd or 3rd time around the teams would knock him around. His numbers have also declined a lot since 2003 when he came up, mainly in his K rate and lack of sucess vs. lefty hitters. Some teams like the Blue Jays would start 7 to 8 lefty hitters against him. He'll probably be the Reds #2 start behind Harrang (being in the NL he'll probably win 12 to 14 games with a 4.00 ERA) and I wish him the best there but I think he reached his ceiling.

The Sox bench is probably their weakest link and now they upgraded. I like the move as it makes the Sox better today and for the future.

Ray Finkle
03-20-2006, 09:13 PM
Man Im a reds fan and I dont like this trade at all Wily Mo pena was a future all-star outfielder red sox fans your lucky we have to deal with arryoyo lucky red sox fans.

Hey don't be down on getting Arroyo. He's a great guy and has a lot of charisma about him. I think you'll be a fan of his by May, maybe even sooner.

RWhitney014
03-20-2006, 09:44 PM
I think the deal is pretty even now, but in the long run it helps out the Sox more. Wily Mo is only 24 years old and like you said he crushes left handed pitchers. This year he'll platoon with Nixon and also fill in for Manny and Coco if needed then he'll probably be the starting RFer in 2007 for the Sox depending on how well he does in Fenway. With a little leadership from guys like Ortiz (one of his friends) and Varitek and learning how to hit and take pitches from hitting coach Papa Jackson, the kid could turn into something special. He hit 51 HRs in less than 850 at bats in the big leagues so the kid has power. He has a lot of potential and with the right team, guys, atomsphere he can possibly shine (see Ortiz, David who actually had similiar numbers when he was 26 as does Pena, and no I'm not saying Pena will be the next Ortiz, far from it however the potential is there).

As for Arroyo, look I love the guy and I'm sad #61 won't be in Boston next year. He was a great guy with a rubber arm and never once complained about being a starter or reliever or whatever. But the truth is what you see with Arroyo is probably all you're going to get with him. He's an above average 4 or 5 start but that's it. He would dominate a team the 1st time he faced then but after the 2nd or 3rd time around the teams would knock him around. His numbers have also declined a lot since 2003 when he came up, mainly in his K rate and lack of sucess vs. lefty hitters. Some teams like the Blue Jays would start 7 to 8 lefty hitters against him. He'll probably be the Reds #2 start behind Harrang (being in the NL he'll probably win 12 to 14 games with a 4.00 ERA) and I wish him the best there but I think he reached his ceiling.

The Sox bench is probably their weakest link and now they upgraded. I like the move as it makes the Sox better today and for the future.

He might have already reached his ceiling, but it's a higher one than just about any starter Cincy's got. Milton is the absolute wrong kind of pitcher for a boombox like GABP. Harang as an ace? Right. Claussen hasn't panned out as of yet. Dave Williams was a nice pickup, but he's a 4 at best. Paul Wilson? Mike Gosling? Matt Belisle?

Prospects? Homer Bailey, Travis Wood, Elizardo Ramirez, Phil Dumatrait? No one really stands out as a Pedro Liriano or Matt Cain or Scott Olsen in that group. Arroyo is a stabilizer for a staff that desperately needed one, acquired for a spare piece that won't be terribly missed when you consider who's replacing him.

Ray Finkle
03-20-2006, 11:21 PM
He might have already reached his ceiling, but it's a higher one than just about any starter Cincy's got. Milton is the absolute wrong kind of pitcher for a boombox like GABP. Harang as an ace? Right. Claussen hasn't panned out as of yet. Dave Williams was a nice pickup, but he's a 4 at best. Paul Wilson? Mike Gosling? Matt Belisle?

Prospects? Homer Bailey, Travis Wood, Elizardo Ramirez, Phil Dumatrait? No one really stands out as a Pedro Liriano or Matt Cain or Scott Olsen in that group. Arroyo is a stabilizer for a staff that desperately needed one, acquired for a spare piece that won't be terribly missed when you consider who's replacing him.

No arguements here. This was a move that both teams had to make. The Reds need pitching help and Arroyo will help them, no doubt. I'm just shocked that the Reds would trade Pena for something like Arroyo. I didn't think Pena's value was low or Arroyo's value was that high.

All I'm saying is that in the long run I think this was a better deal for the Sox due to Pena's potential.

djfresh47
03-21-2006, 12:12 AM
This is a huge move for the Red Sox. The BoSox need to get him in the lineup because I think he can be a star. Obviously i'm a Chisox fan and I would take any of the ChiSox top 6 over him even though the team has struggled in spring ball. Pena is 24 and this was a horrible trade for the Reds and a great move by Epstein.

MikeO
03-21-2006, 12:50 AM
I know Red Sox fans will just think I am ripping them here but I dont' get this trade at all for them.

Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement......these are all injury prone guys. A guy like Arroyo is always healthy, can eat up innings. Can start or come out of the pen. He has been good in the playoffs. Has guts!

I don't see the need for another outfielder (unless they aren't confident in Crisp) when you have a pitching staff that needed a young arm like Arroyo!!!

On a side note: The Boston University co-eds are flipping out now! What will they do now that there PIMP-DADDY is out of town!

Ray Finkle
03-21-2006, 02:31 AM
I know Red Sox fans will just think I am ripping them here but I dont' get this trade at all for them.

Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement......these are all injury prone guys. A guy like Arroyo is always healthy, can eat up innings. Can start or come out of the pen. He has been good in the playoffs. Has guts!

I don't see the need for another outfielder (unless they aren't confident in Crisp) when you have a pitching staff that needed a young arm like Arroyo!!!

On a side note: The Boston University co-eds are flipping out now! What will they do now that there PIMP-DADDY is out of town!

:lol: I think Arroyo is more upset about that then they are. What is there to do in Ohio compared to Boston?

Anyway you do have a very good point. Arroyo has a rubber arm and could be used at anytime whether to start or relieve. I loved Arroyo more than any Sox fan, however I do like the deal. Pena is the Sox 4th OFer as of right now and hits the crap out of lefties (something Nixon can't do). He is also very good backup when Nixon hurts himself again or if Manny or Crisp need a day off.

I personally think the trade had more to do with the upside of Pena and the fear of decline of Arroyo, as I mentioned earlier the Sox were a little worried about his big decline in Ks and how lefties hit him hard. I think they saw a chance to get a good young player for him and jumped on it.

If one of the pitchers gets hurt the ball is going to be handed to Papelbon, he's the man. Arroyo probably wouldn't have started a game unless 2 or more starters went down. And all reports are is that Jon Lester will be up with the team by July like Papelbon was to help out in a starter/long relief role. The Sox also have Lenny Dinirdo and Abe Alvarez in the minor that have started in the big leagues and wouldn't kil the team if they have to start 2 or 3 games while a pitcher is on the DL.

I don't think it has anything to do with Crisp being able to handle Boston but he's doing a good job fitting in with the media and fans right now. I think it has more to do with RF in 2007.

Perfect23
03-21-2006, 06:39 PM
We probably wont be able to see Homer Baily pitch for the REDS this year now.

RWhitney014
03-21-2006, 06:54 PM
I know Red Sox fans will just think I am ripping them here but I dont' get this trade at all for them.

Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement......these are all injury prone guys. A guy like Arroyo is always healthy, can eat up innings. Can start or come out of the pen. He has been good in the playoffs. Has guts!

I don't see the need for another outfielder (unless they aren't confident in Crisp) when you have a pitching staff that needed a young arm like Arroyo!!!

On a side note: The Boston University co-eds are flipping out now! What will they do now that there PIMP-DADDY is out of town!

:lol:

My first thought when I saw this trade was "whoa". My second thought was "Mike's gonna be pissed he can't bomb on Arroyo any more."

:wink:

MikeO
03-22-2006, 12:44 AM
:lol:

My first thought when I saw this trade was "whoa". My second thought was "Mike's gonna be pissed he can't bomb on Arroyo any more."

:wink:

As a Yankee fan Arroyo scared me a bit. Rubber arm. Gutsy pitcher. I'm glad he's gone.

I just liked all of his off the field co-ed stuff. Damn! Those pictures with the hotties were smokin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am an Arroyo fan for just that stuff alone!

Ray Finkle
03-22-2006, 01:14 AM
As a Yankee fan Arroyo scared me a bit. Rubber arm. Gutsy pitcher. I'm glad he's gone.

That's ok Mike, you can enjoy a bunch of years watching gutsy pitchers like Beckett and Papelbon scare you as a Yankee fan :wink:

RWhitney014
03-22-2006, 10:10 AM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2006/03/bildeDato20060322KategoriSPT04Lopenr6032-1.jpg

"Me Bronson. What your name?"

phunwin
03-22-2006, 01:21 PM
Count me among those that think the Red Sox got ripped off. Pena hits lefties well. Wonderful. So basically, the Sox traded a quality #3 starter with (I think) a reasonable salary for a guy that will get perhaps 300 at bats.

I'm also unimpressed with Wily Mo's potential. Pena can't draw a walk to save his life, although the Sox have enough plate-patient guys that they can afford one of those guys in the lineup. Even so, it limits his ceiling as a hitter.

Add in the fact that the Red Sox starting rotation is filled with injury risks, and I do not see the logic here. Surely there had to be a more affordable way to get a platoon mate for Trot Nixon.

Ray Finkle
03-22-2006, 04:14 PM
Count me among those that think the Red Sox got ripped off. Pena hits lefties well. Wonderful. So basically, the Sox traded a quality #3 starter with (I think) a reasonable salary for a guy that will get perhaps 300 at bats.

I'm also unimpressed with Wily Mo's potential. Pena can't draw a walk to save his life, although the Sox have enough plate-patient guys that they can afford one of those guys in the lineup. Even so, it limits his ceiling as a hitter.

Add in the fact that the Red Sox starting rotation is filled with injury risks, and I do not see the logic here. Surely there had to be a more affordable way to get a platoon mate for Trot Nixon.

There's no way Arroyo is a #3 pitcher. He does have a reasonable salary, however as I mentioned earlier Arroyo was the #7 starter behind (Schilling, Beckett, Wakefield, Clement, Wells and Papelbon). Even if with the injury concerns there was no gurantee that Arroyo would even start 1 game with the Sox this year. Theo has come out and said that Jon Lester (Top prospect, lefty starter) would join the team in July like Papelbon did and would be used as the emergency starter and also in the bullpen either in long relief or a situational role. Therefore if a pitcher were to get hurt around July, Lester would have been the one to step in. The Sox even with the injury concerns have a lot of depth to their rotation and bullpen. Arroyo was the odd man out and probably would have pitched the least.

The Red Sox also have some depth in the minor leagues with starters with the likes of Lenny DiNardo and Abe Alvarez who both pitched well in the minors and have pitched pretty decent in their short stays in the majors. The F.O. is very high on both of those guys. So again if 2 pitchers were to go down either DiNardo or Alvarez would be called up now.

The Red Sox F.O. were very concerned that Arroyo hit his ceiling and was on his decline. Arroyo's K rate dropped big time in 2005 compared to 2004 (In 2005 he stuck out 100 batters in 205.1 innings compared to 142 in 178.2 innings in 2004) along with that his ERA rose a half a point and he had no effectiveness vs. left handed batters. Lefties batted .288 against him with 17 home runs, teams would stack up all the lefty batters against Arroyo and he'd get hammered. The Blue Jays wuld have 7 to 8 lefties hitting against him on the nights he pitched. Also something that a stat sheet wouldn't show is that Arroyo pitched very well against teams the first time he faced them, however the 2nd and 3rd times he faced teams he got bombed. Maybe he just had a bad year, but I think what you see with Arroyo is what you'll get. He is a very gutsy pitcher and had a rubber arm and would win you 10 to 12 games with a 4 plus ERA.

Pena is a different story. I know I'm going to come off sounding like a homer but whatever. Pena is 24 years old and has tons of power (51 home runs in 850 at bats). This year he's going to be Nixon's RF partner. That is huge for the Sox because Nixon can't hit a left handed pitcher and Pena kills them. Nixon hasn't play a 130 games since 2003. Plus Nixon is a free agent at the end of the year which means if Pena shows he can handle Fenway and Boston he'll get the job in 2007. If he can't he'll be Nixon's partner in 2007. Pena can also play all 3 OF positions in the event Manny, Nixon or Coco gets hurt, he can step in. He also adds a big bat on the bench (one of the Sox 2006 weak spots).

I know people say Pena has a bad walk rate and they're 100% correct. However you have to understand that 1.) he's only 24 years old 2.) never had a chance to develop in the minor leagues because the Yankees signed him to a major league deal at the age of 18 or 19 and once he got traded to the Reds he basically was on the MLB roster. In Boston he will get the chance to work with one of the best hitting coaches in baseball in Ron "Papa" Jackson. Pena has a big upside and his ceiling right now is endless. With the right mix of coaches and teammates and a stadium sold out everyday who knows what he could do. Also as I mentioned before David Ortiz at age 26 had similar OBP type numbers compared to Wily Mo at age 24. I'm not saying that Wily Mo will be the next Ortiz, but look what happened when the Twins gave up on Ortiz. Again Pena is still a kid and is still learning how to play in the majors.

phunwin
03-22-2006, 05:24 PM
Good points, all. If the Sox like their pitching depth that much, the deal makes much more sense. The rotation remains various combinations of old, injury-prone and screwed up in the head (Wells is all three), but if Lester and Papelbon are ready, then Arroyo's probably expendable.

I will note, however, that when a player comes up with a low walk rate, he's usually going to keep it. Baseball history's not exactly littered with examples of guys who improved their walk rate after 7 years of professional baseball (Wily Mo came up at age 17). And just so you don't think I'm a total homer, I've got the same concerns about Jose Reyes, who is suddenly being talked up as a guy who's improving his plate discipline after a couple sessions with Rickey Henderson.

That said, I checked Pena's career stats, and his walk rate's not abominable: 54 in 884 plate appearances. That's not good, but if his average comes up, you can live with it, as he becomes something like a 275/330/520 guy.

So, basically, I'm flip-flopping. This is a decent deal for the Sox.

Ray Finkle
03-22-2006, 06:26 PM
Good points, all. If the Sox like their pitching depth that much, the deal makes much more sense. The rotation remains various combinations of old, injury-prone and screwed up in the head (Wells is all three), but if Lester and Papelbon are ready, then Arroyo's probably expendable.

I will note, however, that when a player comes up with a low walk rate, he's usually going to keep it. Baseball history's not exactly littered with examples of guys who improved their walk rate after 7 years of professional baseball (Wily Mo came up at age 17). And just so you don't think I'm a total homer, I've got the same concerns about Jose Reyes, who is suddenly being talked up as a guy who's improving his plate discipline after a couple sessions with Rickey Henderson.

That said, I checked Pena's career stats, and his walk rate's not abominable: 54 in 884 plate appearances. That's not good, but if his average comes up, you can live with it, as he becomes something like a 275/330/520 guy.

So, basically, I'm flip-flopping. This is a decent deal for the Sox.

Hey I was the first guy to say Wily Mo needed to work on his walk rate because it plan old sucks right now, but like you said if he can be a 275/330/520 with 30 plus home runs I could live with it. He has in my opinion a lot of upside with low risk.

The strength of the Sox farm system is their pitching either in the starting rotation or the pen, thus making Bronson expendable. The Sox have Papelbon, Lester, DiNardo, Alvarez, Hansen, Delcarmen, Martinez, etc all within a year away of possibly joining the team. Bronson really didn't have much of a role with the Sox.

I like this move because as much as I loved Bronson the Sox picked up something that they lacked in their farm system, a power hitting OFer. If he were in the Sox, Yankee or Met system he'd still be learning in Triple A. I'm hoping for the best of him, however I am also prepared for the worst. If the Sox traded a Lester for Pena I'd be having a panic attack right now.

RWhitney014
03-23-2006, 12:32 AM
Sorry, Ray, but if you think Lenny DiNardo or Abe "Tilt-cap" Alvarez are ready to contribute in any way close to what Bronson Arroyo would have, you're off. Rather, I see this as Boston making a move to enjoy being a big-market team. They're one of the few that can 1) afford to have a platoon of two normal-salaried players and 2) be willing to re-sign Pena when he gets to arbitration and gets paid double what he should because the one stat he puts up (HR) is the one that makes the $.

FaninPatsyLand
03-23-2006, 12:42 AM
Sorry, Ray, but if you think Lenny DiNardo or Abe "Tilt-cap" Alvarez are ready to contribute in any way close to what Bronson Arroyo would have, you're off. Rather, I see this as Boston making a move to enjoy being a big-market team. They're one of the few that can 1) afford to have a platoon of two normal-salaried players and 2) be willing to re-sign Pena when he gets to arbitration and gets paid double what he should because the one stat he puts up (HR) is the one that makes the $.

He never mentioned Lenny DiNardo as being the second coming, ditto with Abe Alvarez (who by the way, is legally blind). It was a solid trade for us, we had depth in the staff and we used someone who would have been delegated to the bullpen to acquire a youngster with some potential who can hit lefties (something Nixon cannot do). Why are you so set on proving the Red Sox made a bad move? Why can't you accept that fact that it was a trade that in the end will benefit both teams?

Ray Finkle
03-23-2006, 12:45 AM
Sorry, Ray, but if you think Lenny DiNardo or Abe "Tilt-cap" Alvarez are ready to contribute in any way close to what Bronson Arroyo would have, you're off. Rather, I see this as Boston making a move to enjoy being a big-market team. They're one of the few that can 1) afford to have a platoon of two normal-salaried players and 2) be willing to re-sign Pena when he gets to arbitration and gets paid double what he should because the one stat he puts up (HR) is the one that makes the $.

I never said that Lenny DiNardo or Abe "Tilt Cap" Alvarez (he tilts his cap because he's legally blind in one eye so it makes it easier to see with the sun and glare of lights) would or could contribute to what Bronson would have. All I said is is there is depth in the farm system thus making Bronson expendable. Plus how does anyone know what DiNardo or Alvarez can actually do given 30 starts like Arroyo. All I said was is that you know what Arroyo is going to give you. I think Arroyo is making the same amount of money if not more than Wily Mo is, so how is this a big market move? Wily Mo is still a few years away from earning big money from his home runs.

Baseball is a funny game and everything can happen. A perfect example is Aaron Small. He saved a 200 million dollar team last year.

MikeO
03-23-2006, 01:29 AM
Yes, you know what Arroyo is going to give you and I wouldn't have parted with that.

1) He has performed in the playoffs under a ton of pressure.

2) He has a rubber arm and can start or come out of the bullpen. Even be a closer if need be.

3) He is still young and has a long future in front of him.

And I don't see how this makes BOTH teams better. Arroyo goes to Cincy in a bad pitchers park on a bad team that he won't help compete. And Willy Mo is an outfiedler who won't play everyday. I actually think both teams got worse with this trade.

When you have an old Wells. An often injured-Schilling and Beckett. And a guy like Wakefield who you NEVER know what you will get with every start, having a guy like Arroyo who can step in for any of them at anytime is a necessity. I know the Palpebone and Lester....but those guys haven't done jack yet and why part with a proven guy who has been there and done it.

Ray Finkle
03-23-2006, 02:45 AM
Yes, you know what Arroyo is going to give you and I wouldn't have parted with that.

1) He has performed in the playoffs under a ton of pressure.

2) He has a rubber arm and can start or come out of the bullpen. Even be a closer if need be.

3) He is still young and has a long future in front of him.

And I don't see how this makes BOTH teams better. Arroyo goes to Cincy in a bad pitchers park on a bad team that he won't help compete. And Willy Mo is an outfiedler who won't play everyday. I actually think both teams got worse with this trade.

When you have an old Wells. An often injured-Schilling and Beckett. And a guy like Wakefield who you NEVER know what you will get with every start, having a guy like Arroyo who can step in for any of them at anytime is a necessity. I know the Palpebone and Lester....but those guys haven't done jack yet and why part with a proven guy who has been there and done it.

He was going to barely pitch for the Sox, unless there were two injuries to Sox starting pitchers. The rotation is an injury question mark but name one rotation in baseball that isn't? Every team has injury question marks. Yes Wells, Schilling and Beckett will be on the injuried watch. Wakefield isn't going anywhere, there's no way Wakefield gets moved to the bullpen, you just don't do that with a knuckleballer. Arroyo was penciled in as the 7th starter. The bullpen is packed with Foulke, Timlin, Tarveras, Saenez, Riske and Papelbon. The Sox have a lot of depth in the minors that in case someone got hurt could step in. The Sox also didn't have a power hitting OFer in their farm system which they have now in Wily Mo. The Red Sox weren't going to use Arroyo as a starter unless 2 guys went down. He'd probably only pitch as a long relief guy from the pen, and he'd be about 5th or 6th in line to be a closer if Foulke went down behind Timlin, Tarveras, Papelbon, Hansen, Riske and even Saenez who all have closer experience. Arroyo doesn't.

Look Arroyo is an average pitcher. He's a 10 to 12 game winner with a 4 plus ERA. I would have loved to traded either Wells or Clement for Pena before Arroyo, but I still like this deal and not because I'm a Red Sox fan and love every move they make but because of the concerns of Arroyo. Just look at the stats I pulled out. Those are legit concerns about him. Does anyone really feel Arroyo will get better than he is? Honestly? I've seen him pitch a lot over the last 3 years and trust me when I tell you he looks like a different pitcher facing a team the 2nd and 3rd time around. He's not a hard thrower and relies on his curveball to get out batters, the problem is is that he hangs the curveball to left handed hitters and thus has a very hard time getting them out. Arroyo was one of my favorite players on the team and I really am upset he left, but I still like this deal. Remember this trade just isn't for 2006 but beyond. That's why the trade is a good one in my opinion, Wily Mo is a lot younger and have a brighter future in my opinion.

Let me just pose a question for you Mike, and please don't think I'm jumping on you because that's not my intention: Would you have traded Aaron Small or Jaret Wright straight up for Wily Mo Pena if you could have, assuming every Yankee pitcher was healthy as of now? And if not I'd love to hear your reasons.

RWhitney014
03-23-2006, 12:17 PM
I know why Abe tilts his cap. I just think it's cool.

Anyway, I'm not set on trying to prove it's a bad move. I just think Arroyo is going to be hard to replace. Sox are in an interesting position with their staff, because with the exception of Beckett, you have a bunch of unproven but talented prospects and a bunch of vets winding their careers down. Then there's Clement, and I know how you all feel about him. Those 10 to 12 games with a 4 ERA is a nice thing to know you have when you're a team like Boston.

I'm just not a Wily Mo Pena fan. Because of the Rule V draft, he was rushed to the majors and makes stupid mistake after stupid mistake after stupid mistake, and while Fenway favors hitters, his stats were padded by playing in GABP. He was significantly better at home (.272-11-33-.330 OBP-.538 SLG to .232-8-18-.272-.435 on the road). To me, he's a luxury pickup for one of the few teams who can afford to do that, as I said before.

The trade favors the Reds because they filled an absolute need. Those 10 to 12 wins with a 4 ERA (which will probably go down a little thanks to NL and an easier offensive division) are something the Reds had nobody to count on for. Now they have it. For your sake, I hope Pena proves me wrong. To me, though, the Reds made out better.

Ray Finkle
03-23-2006, 12:26 PM
I know why Abe tilts his cap. I just think it's cool.

Anyway, I'm not set on trying to prove it's a bad move. I just think Arroyo is going to be hard to replace. Sox are in an interesting position with their staff, because with the exception of Beckett, you have a bunch of unproven but talented prospects and a bunch of vets winding their careers down. Then there's Clement, and I know how you all feel about him. Those 10 to 12 games with a 4 ERA is a nice thing to know you have when you're a team like Boston.

I'm just not a Wily Mo Pena fan. Because of the Rule V draft, he was rushed to the majors and makes stupid mistake after stupid mistake after stupid mistake, and while Fenway favors hitters, his stats were padded by playing in GABP. He was significantly better at home (.272-11-33-.330 OBP-.538 SLG to .232-8-18-.272-.435 on the road). To me, he's a luxury pickup for one of the few teams who can afford to do that, as I said before.

The trade favors the Reds because they filled an absolute need. Those 10 to 12 wins with a 4 ERA (which will probably go down a little thanks to NL and an easier offensive division) are something the Reds had nobody to count on for. Now they have it. For your sake, I hope Pena proves me wrong. To me, though, the Reds made out better.

I wasn't sure about the whole hat thing that's why I pointed it out.

I think it was a good deal for the Reds simply because now they have a pitcher with playoff experience and he'll be their #1 or #2. The Reds have a lot of depth in their outfield that's why they moved Pena. The Sox have a lot of depth in the rotation and bullpen that's why they moved Arroyo.

I think it made sense for both teams.

I don't think Pena was a Draft 5 player, he was signed by the Marlins and then Mets but both contracts were voided because he was under 18. The Yankees then signed him and traded him to the Reds for either Denny Neagle or Drew Hensen I believe.

RWhitney014
03-23-2006, 12:54 PM
I wasn't sure about the whole hat thing that's why I pointed it out.

I think it was a good deal for the Reds simply because now they have a pitcher with playoff experience and he'll be their #1 or #2. The Reds have a lot of depth in their outfield that's why they moved Pena. The Sox have a lot of depth in the rotation and bullpen that's why they moved Arroyo.

I think it made sense for both teams.

I don't think Pena was a Draft 5 player, he was signed by the Marlins and then Mets but both contracts were voided because he was under 18. The Yankees then signed him and traded him to the Reds for either Denny Neagle or Drew Hensen I believe.

I remember back in 2002 or 2003, whenever it was, when he was hitting something like .050 in the middle of the season, the announcers saying he couldn't be sent down. I thought it was because of the Rule V. Maybe he was out of options since he was signed so young and they would have had to pass him through waivers.

Ray Finkle
03-23-2006, 01:37 PM
I remember back in 2002 or 2003, whenever it was, when he was hitting something like .050 in the middle of the season, the announcers saying he couldn't be sent down. I thought it was because of the Rule V. Maybe he was out of options since he was signed so young and they would have had to pass him through waivers.

He was probably out of options due to the Yankees signing him to a major league contract.

GreenMonster
03-23-2006, 01:43 PM
He was probably out of options due to the Yankees signing him to a major league contract.

Thats what is was, he would have had to clear waivers just to be sent down.. He did go deep yesterday during the game.. If he can learn not to swing at garbage, he is decent taking pitches, he will become a decent hitter with very good power, great for Fenway..

MikeO
03-23-2006, 02:03 PM
Let me just pose a question for you Mike, and please don't think I'm jumping on you because that's not my intention: Would you have traded Aaron Small or Jaret Wright straight up for Wily Mo Pena if you could have, assuming every Yankee pitcher was healthy as of now? And if not I'd love to hear your reasons.

Small YES

Wright NO

Small is an older guy who won't be around forever plus he has had one good year.

But Wright, when healthy is a good starting pitcher. I wouldn't trade him, especially when OF isn't a need for the Yanks right now, like it also isn't for Boston.

Ray Finkle
03-23-2006, 02:12 PM
Small YES

Wright NO

Small is an older guy who won't be around forever plus he has had one good year.

But Wright, when healthy is a good starting pitcher. I wouldn't trade him, especially when OF isn't a need for the Yanks right now, like it also isn't for Boston.

You're right Small has had 1 good year, however Wright has had only 2 good years and they were 8 years apart. He also has a carrer ERA of 5.17, oh yeah he's a keeper.

Pena might not be in the Yankees plans for this year but what about next year? Like I said this isn't a move just for 2006, its a move for the future.

Pena is actually a need for the Red Sox now. Nixon stinks against left handed pitchers. He just can't hit them. Pena kills lefties. Plus Nixon is going to get hurt again this year, it happens every year he hasn't played more than 130 games since 2003. I'd rather see Pena get Nixon's at bats while he's hurt instead of Dustin Mohr, Gabe Kapler or even Adam Stern. Plus Nixon is a FA after the year and if the Sox decide to let him walk (which hopefully they do) they have his replacement on the roster already. Plus Pena is a big bat coming off the bench as a pinch hitter. The Sox bench lacks that big bat in a late game situation and now they have it.

I can see how some people might think Red Sox fans are overrating Wily Mo Pena because we probably are. I admit I probably am overrated him and talking him up, because it's the natural thing to do when you just get a new player. However I feel that everyone hear is severly overrating Arroyo and his abilities, especially considering he was barely going to pitch this year for the Red Sox and when he was pitching for the Red Sox last year no one was making it a big deal. No one was saying "the 2005 Red Sox starting rotation sucks except for Arroyo" or even "Arroyo should be in the Red Sox starting rotation in 2006".

FaninPatsyLand
03-23-2006, 04:18 PM
However I feel that everyone hear is severly overrating Arroyo and his abilities, especially considering he was barely going to pitch this year for the Red Sox and when he was pitching for the Red Sox last year no one was making it a big deal.

Arroyo couldn't get lefties out last year. He's got a career ERA well above 4.00 and he was buried in a very deep staff in Boston. He would have been allocated to the Bullpen and most likely wouldn't have started more than 5 games this year...

Yet the Red Sox trade him for an actual NEED (a RF that can hit lefties) and everyone proclaims him to be the second coming the minute he takes off that Boston uniform.

I don't trust him in the playoffs either.. See 2004 ALCS Game 3.

FaninPatsyLand
03-23-2006, 05:11 PM
But Wright, when healthy is a good starting pitcher. I wouldn't trade him, especially when OF isn't a need for the Yanks right now, like it also isn't for Boston.

That's like saying garbage would smell good if it didn't smell like ****. Eventually you are what you are... and Wright is a below average pitcher that can't stay healthy.

GreenMonster
03-23-2006, 11:25 PM
Jaret Wright has 31 wins since 2000 and an era over 5.00...

RWhitney014
03-24-2006, 01:10 AM
Small YES

Wright NO

Small is an older guy who won't be around forever plus he has had one good year.

But Wright, when healthy is a good starting pitcher. I wouldn't trade him, especially when OF isn't a need for the Yanks right now, like it also isn't for Boston.

A healthy Jaret Wright? When this thing :dolphins: starts doing backflips.

Roman529
03-25-2006, 08:18 PM
Bronson Arroya is not very happy being traded to Cincy,....he just bought a new house in Boston and now David Wells is living in it.