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lazareth
03-28-2006, 10:22 AM
This belongs in the draft forum.

Interesting speculation...let the flames begin:



CUTLER HEADED FOR A FALL?



Over the past few months, we've offered up opinions from various league sources regarding a potential draft-day free fall for quarterbacks Matt Leinart and Vince Young.



We're now hearing that Jay Cutler could be the one who ends up sliding.



Of course, this is the season of misinformation in the NFL. Some teams will hype a guy in the hopes that a franchise selecting in front of them will draft him. Other teams will knock a guy in the hopes that he'll fall to them.



But as to the insights we've recently picked up regarding the assessment of the three quarterbacks projected to be taken in round one of the draft, we're persuaded that the source has no horse in the race -- making his observations far more credible.



The question of when Leinart, Young, and Cutler will be drafted depends in large part on the structure of the teams assessing the picks. "Teams that have a strong G.M. and personnel department draft based on production and value," said the source. "When a coach has more to do with the final say, then they seem to go more on workouts. Scouts spend about eleven months going over the players in their area, finding out about character, work habits, coachability, etc., only to get nudged out by a coach who has worked part time for two months on the same thing and then seems to have all the answers."



But what about the buzz surrounding Cutler?



"I have read over and over the last few months that Leinart and Young have dropped and Cutler has risen in scouts eyes," said the source. "What a joke. What has Cutler ever won? He never had a winning season at Vandy. He lost six games in a row this year. Looked very average at the Senior Bowl and very average at the combine, yet people seem to think he should be drafted in the top ten. Why? Because he has a strong arm?

"Let's see, Leinart and Young have won three national titles between them, have great stats, are very strong leaders, won a ton of games, have solid character and they aren't as good as Cutler who lost six games this year alone and never had a winning season? I thought that a real good quarterback was supposed to make his team better and lead them to wins."





So has Young overcome the hit that he took based on reports of a low Wonderlic score?



"All that sh-t about his test score is bogus," said the source. "He could not have done what he has done at Texas if he was real dumb.



"You mentioned that Young's stock rose after his workout last week. Well, a good scouting dept should have had him near the top of their board all along. All he has done is win. If a team is interested, they will bring him in, get him on board with their offensive staff, and find out how good his aptitude for football is. They will find out that he has a very strong passion for the game and is football smart."



Where, then, should Cutler land? "He doesn't deserve to go in the first round," said the source. "He is not anywhere as good as Patrick Ramsey was four years ago. He went at 31 and has been a bust."



Yikes.



Don't expect this debate to die down. After all, there are plenty of teams with coaches who have a lot of say in the draft process, giving Cutler's workout results greater weight in those cities. And when Leinart, who isn't a big T-shirt-and-shorts guy, has what likely will be received as an average workout on April 2, look for the opinions and projections to continue to conflict and jumble.

Motion
03-28-2006, 10:33 AM
Guess we'll find out in a couple weeks.

Dolfan5000
03-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Makes sense really.

rvicious
03-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Interesting speculation...let the flames begin:
This article is a joke, the first thing it mentions is that the information is more credible becuase it is not BIASED. That is bull****!! This information is all biased, they are just trying to rise Young stock. What a joke. Well I hope Young stock does rise and he goes in the top two of the draft, it will be fun watching him be another great college athlete and a medicore QB at best. Just like Mike Vick, Randall Cunnigham, Kordell Stewart, Charlie Batch, Ryan Leaf and the list goes on and on and on. Being a great QB in college does not translate into being a great QB in the NFL.

ILPhinFan88
03-28-2006, 10:36 AM
Guess we'll find out in a couple weeks.

:yeahthat:

WISfinfan13
03-28-2006, 10:37 AM
good, i hope the Jets dont read this article. Then they will have two "busts" on there team and one with an amputated throwing arm.

Warchant26
03-28-2006, 10:44 AM
"Let's see, Leinart and Young have won three national titles between them, have great stats, are very strong leaders, won a ton of games, have solid character and they aren't as good as Cutler who lost six games this year alone and never had a winning season? I thought that a real good quarterback was supposed to make his team better and lead them to wins."

Most of the article seems reasonable but I find question in this segment. Jay Cutler was in a strength and power-loaded SEC conference which caused Vandy to lose more games than say a team in the Pac-10 or Big East would. Leinart had Reggie Bush, a great O-Line, a great everything....What did Cutler have? Thank you for that stunning silence. Texas and Vince Young are the same way.

Would you all say that Dan Marino was a bust (despite the fact that he could be called Mr. Dolphin himself and is arguably [on my list he's the greatest] the greatest QB ever) because he never won the Superbowl?

I think that many people are under the misconception that you need to be Superman to be able to make your team rise and win a National Championship or a Superbowl. All it takes is well coached talent, and a few key players that would step up when the time is needed (hmm sounds a lil' like the new Miami Dolphins :))

greatwade
03-28-2006, 11:20 AM
This article is a joke, the first thing it mentions is that the information is more credible becuase it is not BIASED. That is bull****!! This information is all biased, they are just trying to rise Young stock. What a joke. Well I hope Young stock does rise and he goes in the top two of the draft, it will be fun watching him be another great college athlete and a medicore QB at best. Just like Mike Vick, Randall Cunnigham, Kordell Stewart, Charlie Batch, Ryan Leaf and the list goes on and on and on. Being a great QB in college does not translate into being a great QB in the NFL.

but the article does raise some good points.

I'm not saying I'm in the know, I've only seen the Cutler kid play in the Senior Bowl. Based on that, I want him nowhere near my beloved Dolphins, and won't be scared at all to seem him go to the Jets.

Motion
03-28-2006, 11:24 AM
but the article does raise some good points.

I'm not saying I'm in the know, I've only seen the Cutler kid play in the Senior Bowl. Based on that, I want him nowhere near my beloved Dolphins, and won't be scared at all to seem him go to the Jets.

I feel quite the opposite. I've seen him play many many times with a weak supporting cast and go toe to toe with much higher competition.

ATVZ400
03-28-2006, 11:25 AM
This reminds me about a qb that fell in the draft.... MARINO!!! we all know how he turned out... i think jay will be a top ten pick... if he happens to fall to us i would not have a problem drafting him

thecoordinator
03-28-2006, 11:25 AM
this guy talks about cutler not winning enough games at vanderbilt lol. i guess he's overlooking the fact that vanderbilt plays in the SEC and probably has less talent than any other team in that league.

Argos31
03-28-2006, 11:29 AM
ya this is totally a biased article that I do not believe was written by a journalist or scout, or any anyone with coaching experience. This is either something written by a fan or some hot headed radio personality. Almost comical, that whole thing about victories doesn't mention that the QBs played at USC, Texas, and VANDERBILT(who?).

greatwade
03-28-2006, 11:29 AM
I feel quite the opposite. I've seen him play many many times with a weak supporting cast and go toe to toe with much higher competition.

as a Gator fan, I gather you've seen him a heck of a lot more than me. As I said I only watched the senior bowl. Did you watch that??? He looked below average.

Maybe its the haircut, something about him I just don't like. Time will tell I suppose. He sure seems to have a ton of fans, so maybe he'll be a great pro.
It is such a hard thing to predict and the deck is always stacked against young QBs, especially ones that go early first to crap teams.

Adam First
03-28-2006, 11:32 AM
but the article does raise some good points.

I'm not saying I'm in the know, I've only seen the Cutler kid play in the Senior Bowl. Based on that, I want him nowhere near my beloved Dolphins, and won't be scared at all to seem him go to the Jets.

And considering the situation we have now with Culpepper, i'd much, much rather have a veteran backup and the Lemon on the bench.

greatwade
03-28-2006, 11:34 AM
I'm guessing this thread belongs in the draft forum.

Warchant26
03-28-2006, 11:37 AM
I'm guessing this thread belongs in the draft forum.

Lol, good way to avoid a heated arguement, jk. I agree though, this has nothing to do with the Miami Dolphins

greatwade
03-28-2006, 11:39 AM
Lol, good way to avoid a heated arguement, jk. I agree though, this has nothing to do with the Miami Dolphins

exactly :wink:

lazareth
03-28-2006, 11:54 AM
ya this is totally a biased article that I do not believe was written by a journalist or scout, or any anyone with coaching experience. This is either something written by a fan or some hot headed radio personality. Almost comical, that whole thing about victories doesn't mention that the QBs played at USC, Texas, and VANDERBILT(who?).
it is just one guy quoting something that a source told him and his own speculation...take it for what its worth...

lazareth
03-28-2006, 11:56 AM
I'm guessing this thread belongs in the draft forum.
probably right...i didn't think of that...i was too busy thinking what fun this could be in the zoo :chuckle:

arsenal
03-28-2006, 12:04 PM
you kno cutler reminds me of kyle boller... strong arm, good athleticism, rising up the boards...

i remember when boller was coming out, carson palmer and byron leftwich were the top 2 QBs, but after senior bowl, combine, prodays, everyone put boller into that mix and some even said he could/should go higher than leftwich...

kinda like lienart and young, and cutler getting into the mix... boller had all the measurables you could want in a QB, just like cutler does... kinda eerily similar

Mr.Majestik
03-28-2006, 12:27 PM
It's difficult to take any evaluation of a quarterback seriously when it begins by impugning a quarterback for not winning at Vanderbilt, the Duke of the SEC. Is this "unbiased" observor really trying to compare Cutler's odds for success at Vandy to those of Matt Leinart at USC, or Vince Young at Texas? How many NFL draft picks does Jay Culter have the luxury of playing with at Vanderbilt? Cutler beat Tennessee. Nearly beat Florida. Culter was SEC Offensive Player of the Year. He put up huge numbers in arguably the best conference in the land. Which is more then can be said for either Leinart, or Young. Comparing Cutler's career at Vandy to Patrick Ramsey's career at Tulane is a farce. What SEC schedule does Tulane play?

Look at a player like Vince Young, whose Wonderlic score supposedly doesn't matter. Young played three years and had one good season. He's famous for three performances, against Michigan, Ohio State and USC. He ran for twice as many touchdowns in those games combined, as he threw. Against Ohio State he threw as many interceptions as touchdowns. He never took snaps from under center. He played in a read-option system where he was required to make one "read" then run with it. He doesn't have a strong arm. Do a thought experiment. If either Matt Leinart, or Vince Young are quarterbacking Vanderbilt would they be any better? Or possibly worse? If Culter is quarterbacking Texas, or USC, are they still national championship contenders? I think so. If winning was the sole measure of a quarterback, Ken Dorsey, Danny Wuerffel, and Craig Krenzel would have been All-Pros in the NFL. I see more and more evidence that critical thinking skills are now extinct, replaced by a video game mentality and desire among the media to create "feel good" hype. How else could you explain the unjustifiable euphoria about Vince Young's limited skill set, or the similar rubbish about Michael Vick when he came out.

Pericles349
03-28-2006, 12:37 PM
I just hate these articles that use these "sources" that provide us no idea as to who is saying it. I'm not talking about names, but what position they hold and in what organization. This could be the janitor for the Texans for all we know. This could be the writer's "alter ego". I mean honestly, who is this "source" to make that kind of an assessment.

Motion
03-28-2006, 12:37 PM
as a Gator fan, I gather you've seen him a heck of a lot more than me. As I said I only watched the senior bowl. Did you watch that??? He looked below average.

Maybe its the haircut, something about him I just don't like. Time will tell I suppose. He sure seems to have a ton of fans, so maybe he'll be a great pro.
It is such a hard thing to predict and the deck is always stacked against young QBs, especially ones that go early first to crap teams.

Yes I saw the Senior Bowl. He did look somwhat average. Although I don't put much, if any, stock into the actual game. Playing with unfamiliar teammates in a different system with only a few practices doesn't say much about his abilities IMO. I put much more stock into his play at Vandy.

BSQX4
03-28-2006, 12:42 PM
If Cutler is such a big star why didn't he go to the U of Miami or Notre Dame or some other major power? Why, if he's so dominant did he end up at Vandy? Was he not that great coming out of High School? I ask these questions because I don't know.

Scotland11
03-28-2006, 12:57 PM
Where, then, should Cutler land? "He doesn't deserve to go in the first round," said the source. "He is not anywhere as good as Patrick Ramsey was four years ago. He went at 31 and has been a bust."


Yikes


Yes and at what spot did Tom Brady get drafted at? Or how about Kurt Warner? Jake Delhomme even? Yes, after spot 30, any QB drafted is probably as good as shorts and T-shirt at the Meadowlands in December.

:rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2

Motion
03-28-2006, 12:59 PM
If Cutler is such a big star why didn't he go to the U of Miami or Notre Dame or some other major power? Why, if he's so dominant did he end up at Vandy? Was he not that great coming out of High School? I ask these questions because I don't know.

He went to Vandy because they were one of the very few that wanted him to be a QB. Most the other schools wanted him to be a safety.

maquina54
03-28-2006, 01:01 PM
good, i hope the Jets dont read this article. Then they will have two "busts" on there team and one with an amputated throwing arm.
Well said. :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol:

Mcganiel
03-28-2006, 01:04 PM
The article does make a lot of sense

finfan54
03-28-2006, 01:20 PM
I think the article is right on and is what i have been saying all along. I dont care what anyone says, Cutler is overrated and VY is being downed by people who are basing something on what happened at the combine. The combine is becomes a deciever in the market. I only go by what my own two eyes see in the end. VY is a champion and so is Leinert. If you were throwing bank at QB's in the draft, you should start here. peoples assertions are based on what they think the prototypical QB should be and not what the intangibles are required to be a great QB. Dan Marino should not be remembered for his quick release, he should be remembered for being a winner and putting the team on his back.

rvicious
03-28-2006, 01:22 PM
I am really tired of listening all these experts, saying who will be grat and who won't. I bet if we look back most of the predictions by these so called experts have been inaccurate. I mean how many stories do we need to read about guys who were drafted on the bottom or on the last round and today are starting and playing aon a regular basis for their teams. It is the same thing with their predictions, I dont think that any of them picked the steelers to wint the SB. At the end of the day is just a guess, period.

finfan54
03-28-2006, 01:24 PM
If Cutler is such a big star why didn't he go to the U of Miami or Notre Dame or some other major power? Why, if he's so dominant did he end up at Vandy? Was he not that great coming out of High School? I ask these questions because I don't know.


I simply take Cutler for what he is. A very good prospect. He is not all world and has never proven it whatsoever in any way. He in reality is a project who could be great in two-three years, if he developes in the NFL atmosphere. but if he comes in with a big head and thinks he is all world, then he will be surprised and then lose confidence. I think the worst thing that could happen to Jay cutler has already happened, and it has nothing to do with his combine results or workouts.

Motion
03-28-2006, 01:31 PM
but if he comes in with a big head and thinks he is all world, then he will be surprised and then lose confidence. I think the worst thing that could happen to Jay cutler has already happened, and it has nothing to do with his combine results or workouts.

Completely disagree, in that sense he has an advantage over both Leinart and Young. He's been on a struggling team, he knows how to handle it.

Motion
03-28-2006, 01:31 PM
The combine is becomes a deciever in the market.

:confused: Huh?

Pennington's Rocket Arm
03-28-2006, 01:40 PM
I think the article is right on and is what i have been saying all along. I dont care what anyone says, Cutler is overrated and VY is being downed by people who are basing something on what happened at the combine. The combine is becomes a deciever in the market. I only go by what my own two eyes see in the end.
i thought cutler was good long before the combine and senior bowl (i've watched him for years) and i thought young was overrated from the getgo. and you say what you've seen with your own eyes, but i doubt you've seen cutler play.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
03-28-2006, 01:43 PM
I simply take Cutler for what he is. A very good prospect. He is not all world and has never proven it whatsoever in any way. He in reality is a project who could be great in two-three years, if he developes in the NFL atmosphere. but if he comes in with a big head and thinks he is all world, then he will be surprised and then lose confidence. I think the worst thing that could happen to Jay cutler has already happened, and it has nothing to do with his combine results or workouts.
you keep assuming he has a bad attitude and is extremely arrogant, yet you have nothing to substantiate that. if anything, young is the one with the big head.

playmaker1
03-28-2006, 01:47 PM
you kno cutler reminds me of kyle boller... strong arm, good athleticism, rising up the boards...

i remember when boller was coming out, carson palmer and byron leftwich were the top 2 QBs, but after senior bowl, combine, prodays, everyone put boller into that mix and some even said he could/should go higher than leftwich...

kinda like lienart and young, and cutler getting into the mix... boller had all the measurables you could want in a QB, just like cutler does... kinda eerily similar

I totally agree with you. Will be interesting to see what happens on draft day.

BSQX4
04-01-2006, 08:02 PM
Thanks motion for the good info. Wow, he was physical enough to play Safety. Tough guy.