PDA

View Full Version : So you want to draft a WR in the 1st round eh?



super_slash
04-04-2006, 05:40 PM
1997
7 N.Y. Giants Ike Hilliard WR Florida
15 Miami Yatil Green WR Miami
16 Tampa Bay Reidel Anthony WR Flor
27 Carolina Rae Carruth WR Colorado


1998
16 Tennessee Kevin Dyson WR Utah
30 Denver Marcus Nash WR Tennessee


1999
13 Pittsburgh Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech


2000
4 Cincinnati Peter Warrick WR Florida State
10 Baltimore Travis Taylor WR Florida
21 Kansas City Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
29 Jacksonville R. Jay Soward WR Southern California



2001
8 Chicago David Terrell WR Michigan
15 Washington Rod Gardner WR Clemson
25 Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA

2003
3 Houston Andre Johnson WR Miami
17 Arizona Bryant Johnson WR Penn State

Spray Mucus
04-04-2006, 05:43 PM
you forgott

2003

2- Charlie Rogers

but on a side note you should note 2002 and 2004 draft class too.

super_slash
04-04-2006, 05:47 PM
I would say at least 70 % are busts, it sucks

I got a clue listening to Pat Kirwan on NFL Radio

he said a veteran WR coach told him he doesn't want a 4.4 guy, he wants a 4.5 guy who gets in and out of his breaks quickly

Anquan Boldin is the poster child for this

Boomer
04-04-2006, 06:03 PM
Santonio Holmes is a 4.2 guy that gets in and out of his breaks in a hurry.

super_slash
04-04-2006, 06:12 PM
I think scouts are afraid to miss out on a guy who has great measureables, while the position coach really knows what he needs

there are so many positions where the 40 yard dash means jack **** and yet that is the only stat that is regularily available

the media experts covering this should be comparing and contrasting the measurables that matter most to each position

I heard Mayock refer to better measureables(like a shuttle for a CB) but he doesn't quote any times for these

I'm curious to know how many times JT ran 40 yards to sack a QB

TractorTraylor
04-04-2006, 06:12 PM
Boomer, whats your take on the big 3 of WR: Holmes, Jackson, Moss..

Nappy Roots
04-04-2006, 06:13 PM
andre johnson is a bust? news to the rest of us

super_slash
04-04-2006, 06:14 PM
Santonio Holmes is a 4.2 guy that gets in and out of his breaks in a hurry.


Holmes seems like a guy who produced in college

super_slash
04-04-2006, 06:18 PM
andre johnson is a bust? news to the rest of us


I dunno, he's close

Nappy Roots
04-04-2006, 06:19 PM
I dunno, he's close


no, hes not even close.

super_slash
04-04-2006, 06:20 PM
Sorry, I forgot about all the Pro-Bowls he went to

his stats were dazzling last year

kpcane
04-04-2006, 06:21 PM
I dunno, he's close

He was just injured last year. He had a pro bowl year in his second year, and nearly had 1000 yards his rookie year. He's anything but a bust.

super_slash
04-04-2006, 06:24 PM
you're right, he is not a bust

sorry

if Houston gets their OL together, the kid will be back to form

Disgustipate
04-04-2006, 06:36 PM
I dont want to draft a WR myself, but I dont understand what this shows. Alot of first round players fail to live up to expectations at every position. I've yet to see anything that suggests 1st round WRs bust at a higher rate then any other position.

uga3406
04-04-2006, 06:42 PM
I think in the end it won't matter about Wr's in the 1st rd cause they proble wont go in that direction. i would love to see someone like Holmes on this team as a 3rd Wr with speed for a year or two and filling in for Booker when he gets hurts. I think he reminds me of a young Joey Galloaway a lot. great speed, even better hands and im sure by year 3 of his tenure on the nfl will be great at running routes.

super_slash
04-04-2006, 07:34 PM
Alot of first round players fail to live up to expectations at every position. I've yet to see anything that suggests 1st round WRs bust at a higher rate then any other position.

i'll bet RB, LB, DT, CB have a 50/50 chance of succeeding

QB, WR and DE I give a 30/70 chance of succeeding

it's just an general estimate

I don't know how you can look at that list and be comfortable

I also think that the lack of WR's in the draft is inflating the value of these 2 guys

WR is one of the least of our needs, but people tend to get a woody over the skill positions

Boomer
04-05-2006, 06:27 AM
Boomer, whats your take on the big 3 of WR: Holmes, Jackson, Moss..

I'd rank them:

1. Holmes
2. Moss
3. Jackson.

Holmes has 4.29 speed, uses his hips and shoulders really well, is a great route runner and most importantly for our offense is a tremendous blocker. Moss shouldn't be discarded as he's be an important number 3. He can flat out fly, has good hands and had to endure two very unsteady QB's in Brock Berlin and the freshman year of Kyle Wright, which didn't help any. I am very wary of a guy who bursts into the 1st round based on what he did at the Combine like Chad Jackson did. All of a sudden he's a top 15 pick and yet he's done it for one year with very misleading stats in a gimmick offense. Drops too many balls, lacks aggression and is a mediocre blocker.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 06:31 AM
Holmes seems like a guy who produced in college

Which Jackson only did for a year. Holmes is the most NFL ready.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 06:33 AM
I dunno, he's close

Are you for real? He had 976 yards as a rookie, 1142 and the Pro Bowl in his 2nd year and battled injuries throughout 2005 and still recorded 63 catches. Kid is a quality player and when healthy, one of the finest receivers in the AFC.

Motion
04-05-2006, 06:49 AM
I'd rank them:

1. Holmes
2. Moss
3. Jackson.

Holmes has 4.29 speed, uses his hips and shoulders really well, is a great route runner and most importantly for our offense is a tremendous blocker. Moss shouldn't be discarded as he's be an important number 3. He can flat out fly, has good hands and had to endure two very unsteady QB's in Brock Berlin and the freshman year of Kyle Wright, which didn't help any. I am very wary of a guy who bursts into the 1st round based on what he did at the Combine like Chad Jackson did. All of a sudden he's a top 15 pick and yet he's done it for one year with very misleading stats in a gimmick offense. Drops too many balls, lacks aggression and is a mediocre blocker.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but thats flat out BS. He does not drop many balls at all.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 07:26 AM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but thats flat out BS. He does not drop many balls at all.

No of course. Because I have no idea what I'm talking about

:rolleyes2

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 07:42 AM
Chad Jackson flat out has the best hands in this draft among wideouts, no one has hands any better IMO.

Motion
04-05-2006, 07:43 AM
No of course. Because I have no idea what I'm talking about

:rolleyes2

I didn't say that. I'm just saying he doesn't drop many passes, he has great hands.

Motion
04-05-2006, 07:44 AM
Chad Jackson flat out has the best hands in this draft among wideouts, no one has hands any better IMO.

:yes:

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 07:47 AM
:yes:

I'd rank them:

1) Jackson

2) Holmes

3) Moss

Boomer
04-05-2006, 08:13 AM
I didn't say that. I'm just saying he doesn't drop many passes, he has great hands.

He has a tendancy not to look balls in and subsequently put them down. To me that's as much a concentration issue as much as it is a hands issue. He DOES have good hands, but he's not as polished as you make out.

Why didn't he produce as if he were the best receiver in the class while at UF? I think he loafed at times and rounded off routes. Watch the South Carolina loss again and you'll see what I mean.

Motion
04-05-2006, 09:20 AM
I'd rank them:

1) Jackson

2) Holmes

3) Moss

I agree

Motion
04-05-2006, 09:25 AM
He has a tendancy not to look balls in and subsequently put them down. To me that's as much a concentration issue as much as it is a hands issue. He DOES have good hands, but he's not as polished as you make out.

Why didn't he produce as if he were the best receiver in the class while at UF? I think he loafed at times and rounded off routes. Watch the South Carolina loss again and you'll see what I mean.

Not sure where your going with that. He broke the school record for receptions last year. He was the main target of every defense all year after Caldwell went down. 88 catches, 900 yds, and 9 TDs sounds like pretty good production to me in the 1st year of that particular offense, especially as inconsistent as Leak was last year. Lack of deep ball in Meyer's offense is the one thing I don't like about it and where Jackson excels at IMO.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 09:46 AM
Not sure where your going with that. He broke the school record for receptions last year. He was the main target of every defense all year after Caldwell went down. 88 catches, 900 yds, and 9 TDs sounds like pretty good production to me in the 1st year of that particular offense, especially as inconsistent as Leak was last year. Lack of deep ball in Meyer's offense is the one thing I don't like about it and where Jackson excels at IMO.

88 catches in a gimmick offense at 10 yards a reception. That tells more of a story. You're a Florida fan, it's your job to sell the Gator boys. Where's the aggression in going for the ball, where's the willingness to block down the field, how come he's shown up essentially for the first time in 2005 after what, 29 catches a year before. And the Chris Leak argument doesn't compare to say Moss's argument as Leak, despite some struggles last year is a 3 year starter who's played with Jackson since he arrived.

burger13
04-05-2006, 10:06 AM
1997
7 N.Y. Giants Ike Hilliard WR Florida
15 Miami Yatil Green WR Miami
16 Tampa Bay Reidel Anthony WR Flor
27 Carolina Rae Carruth WR Colorado


1998
16 Tennessee Kevin Dyson WR Utah
30 Denver Marcus Nash WR Tennessee


1999
13 Pittsburgh Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech


2000
4 Cincinnati Peter Warrick WR Florida State
10 Baltimore Travis Taylor WR Florida
21 Kansas City Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
29 Jacksonville R. Jay Soward WR Southern California



2001
8 Chicago David Terrell WR Michigan
15 Washington Rod Gardner WR Clemson
25 Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA

2003
3 Houston Andre Johnson WR Miami
17 Arizona Bryant Johnson WR Penn State

Why do you post such an incomplete list?? Why are you only posting the underachieving WR's???? (and in which case, why in the world is Andre Johnson on the list??)

Here is a complete list.......and I went back to 1995 so we have a full 10 drafts to look at (I didn't conviently set the cut-off before perhaps the best WR class in history, 1996).

IMO, the players in bold are not busts based off of where they were drafted:


1995
4 Michael Westbrook WR Colorado
8 Joey Galloway WR Ohio State
10 J.J. Stokes WR UCLA

1996
1 Keyshawn Johnson WR Southern California
7 Terry Glenn WR Ohio State
18 Eddie Kennison WR Louisiana State
19 Marvin Harrison WR Syracuse
24 Eric Moulds WR Mississippi State

1997
7 Ike Hilliard WR Florida
15 Yatil Green WR Miami
16 Reidel Anthony WR Florida
27 Rae Carruth WR Colorado

1998
16 Kevin Dyson WR Utah
21 Randy Moss WR Marshall
30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee

1999
6 Torry Holt WR North Carolina State
8 David Boston WR Ohio State
13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech

2000
4 Peter Warrick WR Florida State
8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State
10 Travis Taylor WR Florida
21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
29 R. Jay Soward WR Southern California

2001
8 David Terrell WR Michigan
9 Koren Robinson WR North Carolina State
15 Rod Gardner WR Clemson
16 Santana Moss WR Miami
25 Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA
30 Reggie Wayne WR Miami

2002
13 Donte' Stallworth WR Tennessee
19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
20 Javon Walker WR Florida State

2003
2 Charles Rogers WR Michigan State
3 Andre Johnson WR Miami
17 Bryant Johnson WR Penn State

2004
3 Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh
7 Roy Williams WR Texas
9 Reggie Williams WR Washington
13 Lee Evans WR Wisconsin
15 Michael Clayton WR Louisiana State
29 Michael Jenkins WR Ohio State
31 Rashaun Woods WR Oklahoma State

note: it's still too early on the 2004 guys, but looking at that list, the only guy I wouldn't really want on thePhins right now is Reggie Williams.

Jimmy James
04-05-2006, 10:07 AM
I am very wary of a guy who bursts into the 1st round based on what he did at the Combine like Chad Jackson did. All of a sudden he's a top 15 pick and yet he's done it for one year with very misleading stats in a gimmick offense. Drops too many balls, lacks aggression and is a mediocre blocker.

Never mind what you think, Boomer. Let's trust the opinion of the Gator faithful who swear they have never seen a guy like Jackson, just like they did last time when the guy's name was Gaffney.

It's sad, really.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 10:14 AM
Why do you post such an incomplete list?? Why are you only posting the underachieving WR's???? (and in which case, why in the world is Andre Johnson on the list??)

Here is a complete list.......and I went back to 1995 so we have a full 10 drafts to look at (I didn't conviently set the cut-off before perhaps the best WR class in history, 1996).

IMO, the players in bold are not busts based off of where they were drafted:


1995
4 Michael Westbrook WR Colorado
8 Joey Galloway WR Ohio State
10 J.J. Stokes WR UCLA

1996
1 Keyshawn Johnson WR Southern California
7 Terry Glenn WR Ohio State
18 Eddie Kennison WR Louisiana State
19 Marvin Harrison WR Syracuse
24 Eric Moulds WR Mississippi State

1997
7 Ike Hilliard WR Florida
15 Yatil Green WR Miami
16 Reidel Anthony WR Florida
27 Rae Carruth WR Colorado

1998
16 Kevin Dyson WR Utah
21 Randy Moss WR Marshall
30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee

1999
6 Torry Holt WR North Carolina State
8 David Boston WR Ohio State
13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech

2000
4 Peter Warrick WR Florida State
8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State
10 Travis Taylor WR Florida
21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
29 R. Jay Soward WR Southern California

2001
8 David Terrell WR Michigan
9 Koren Robinson WR North Carolina State
15 Rod Gardner WR Clemson
16 Santana Moss WR Miami
25 Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA
30 Reggie Wayne WR Miami

2002
13 Donte' Stallworth WR Tennessee
19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
20 Javon Walker WR Florida State

2003
2 Charles Rogers WR Michigan State
3 Andre Johnson WR Miami
17 Bryant Johnson WR Penn State

2004
3 Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh
7 Roy Williams WR Texas
9 Reggie Williams WR Washington
13 Lee Evans WR Wisconsin
15 Michael Clayton WR Louisiana State
29 Michael Jenkins WR Ohio State
31 Rashaun Woods WR Oklahoma State

note: it's still too early on the 2004 guys, but looking at that list, the only guy I wouldn't really want on thePhins right now is Reggie Williams.


And Rashaun Woods, but nice post.

burger13
04-05-2006, 10:17 AM
i'll bet RB, LB, DT, CB have a 50/50 chance of succeeding

QB, WR and DE I give a 30/70 chance of succeeding

it's just an general estimate

I don't know how you can look at that list and be comfortable

I also think that the lack of WR's in the draft is inflating the value of these 2 guys

WR is one of the least of our needs, but people tend to get a woody over the skill positions

by my numbers......WR has about a 55% success rate....of course it is VERY subjective what you want to call success.

example - you somehow feel that Charles Rogers is not a bust....but Andre Johnson is. You also feel that Ike Hilliard is a bust, despite the fact that he was a 6 year starter for the Giants who has almost 5,000 career receiving yards.

I'm gonna look at RB's now, since you seem to think that their success rate will be greater.

burger13
04-05-2006, 10:21 AM
And Rashaun Woods, but nice post.

yeah I guess you're right.....I gues I just still have a soft spot for him from watching him in college.

anyway, as for the RB's - of the 28 drafted between 1995 and 2003, 14 were busts and 14 weren't:

BUSTS
1995-1 Ki-Jana Carter RB Penn State
1995-17 Tyrone Wheatley RB Michigan
1995-18 Napoleon Kaufman RB Washington
1995-19 James Stewart RB Tennessee
1995-21 Rashaan Salaam RB Colorado
1996-6 Lawrence Phillips RB Nebraska
1996-8 Tim Biakabutuka RB Michigan
1998-5 Curtis Enis RB Penn State
1998-18 Robert Edwards RB Georgia
1999-29 John Avery RB Mississippi
2000-11 Ron Dayne RB Wisconsin
2001-31 Trung Canidate RB Arizona
2001-27 Michael Bennett RB Wisconsin
2002-16 William Green RB Boston College

NOT BUSTS
1996-14 Eddie George RB Ohio State
1997-12 Warrick Dunn RB Florida State
1997-23 Antowain Smith RB Houston
1998-9 Fred Taylor RB Florida
1999-4 Edgerrin James RB Miami
1999-5 Ricky Williams RB Texas
2000-5 Jamal Lewis RB Tennessee
2000-7 Thomas Jones RB Virginia
2000-19 Shaun Alexander RB Alabama
2001-5 LaDainian Tomlinson RB Texas Christian
2001-23 Deuce McAllister RB Mississippi
2002-18 T.J. Duckett RB Michigan State
2003-23 Willis McGahee RB Miami
2003-27 Larry Johnson RB Penn State


That's a 50% success rate as you thought, but less than what I got for WR's.

Bowl_Bound
04-05-2006, 10:28 AM
Santonio Holmes is a 4.2 guy that gets in and out of his breaks in a hurry.


You like him for us in the first round?

Motion
04-05-2006, 10:36 AM
88 catches in a gimmick offense at 10 yards a reception. That tells more of a story. You're a Florida fan, it's your job to sell the Gator boys. Where's the aggression in going for the ball, where's the willingness to block down the field, how come he's shown up essentially for the first time in 2005 after what, 29 catches a year before. And the Chris Leak argument doesn't compare to say Moss's argument as Leak, despite some struggles last year is a 3 year starter who's played with Jackson since he arrived.

Yeah 88 catches in a gimmick offense thats based on short slants. Yeah I'm a Florida fan and your a FSU fan, same difference in bias. Yeah he and Leak have played together in 3 completely different offensive system, thats great for consistencey. Aggression in going for the ball? 90% of his catches were across the middle knowing he's about to be nailed. I refuse to be one of the sheep on this topic.

Motion
04-05-2006, 10:38 AM
Never mind what you think, Boomer. Let's trust the opinion of the Gator faithful who swear they have never seen a guy like Jackson, just like they did last time when the guy's name was Gaffney.

It's sad, really.

I could careless who you trust. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just stating my opinion like everyone else. The fact that you need to talk down to people on an internet message board is whats sad.

Jimmy James
04-05-2006, 10:41 AM
I could careless who you trust. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just stating my opinion like everyone else. The fact that you need to talk down to people on an internet message board is whats sad.

Motion doth protest too much.

Hit a little too close to home there, buddy?

Motion
04-05-2006, 10:43 AM
Motion doth protest too much.

Hit a little too close to home there, buddy?

Not at all. :wink:

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 11:09 AM
Never mind what you think, Boomer. Let's trust the opinion of the Gator faithful who swear they have never seen a guy like Jackson, just like they did last time when the guy's name was Gaffney.

It's sad, really.

First of all Jimmy James, no one's opinion on here is any more valuable than anyone elses, I don't care if Mel Kiper says Chad Jackson is the best receiver in this draft (which apparently he must think since he has him being the first WR off the board in his most recent mock)....it still doesn't neccesarily make him right, and that goes for any other acclaimed expert, or self proclaimed expert as well.

Second, past UF receivers who have succeeded or failed have absolutely nothing to do with a current one when it comes to predicting his prospects as an NFL receiver....he could be Wes Chandler or he could be Ike Hillard.

I personally think he's way above most of the recent UF wideouts as a prospect.

nick1
04-05-2006, 11:16 AM
Jackson has good hands, great speed, is an excellant route runner and has good size. WRs in the past 1st rounds may have been busts but I think Moss and Jackson will both be huge booms out of this draft

Boomer
04-05-2006, 12:02 PM
You like him for us in the first round?


I think he's a very strong possibility. You watch him move, the separation he gets, the hips and shoulders selling the fakes, but most importantly for our offense, the blocking ability. I think he's a decent shout to be the pick. But then I also think Jason Allen, Tye Hill, Donte Whitner, Bobby Carpenter, Chad Greenway, Ernie Sims, Manny Lawson, etc etc etc are also strong possibilities.

This draft has me vexed.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Yeah 88 catches in a gimmick offense thats based on short slants. Yeah I'm a Florida fan and your a FSU fan, same difference in bias. Yeah he and Leak have played together in 3 completely different offensive system, thats great for consistencey. Aggression in going for the ball? 90% of his catches were across the middle knowing he's about to be nailed. I refuse to be one of the sheep on this topic.

I absolutely salute you for not being a sheep. That's why the draft is so good because all of us differ in opinions on players. It'd be a very boring process if we all agreed. That said, my being an FSU fan really doesn't come into it when I look at the draft. Far from it in fact. I grade out a Cane and a Gator the same way I'd grade out a Nole.

In terms of consistency from a QB, it's still the same passer regardless of the system. Which means the ball comes the same way, he understands the velocity, the ball positioning and after 3 years together, regardless of offensive mindset, they should still be on the same page.

Aggression going for the ball doesn't mean working the middle. It means using your obvious physical tools to outbattle a corner. It means giving up your body when the backs are running your way.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 12:09 PM
First of all Jimmy James, no one's opinion on here is any more valuable than anyone elses, I don't care if Mel Kiper says Chad Jackson is the best receiver in this draft (which apparently he must think since he has him being the first WR off the board in his most recent mock)....it still doesn't neccesarily make him right, and that goes for any other acclaimed expert, or self proclaimed expert as well.

Second, past UF receivers who have succeeded or failed have absolutely nothing to do with a current one when it comes to predicting his prospects as an NFL receiver....he could be Wes Chandler or he could be Ike Hillard.

I personally think he's way above most of the recent UF wideouts as a prospect.

Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce my very own internet stalker. Blue Fin likes to follow me round Fin Heaven, arguing the toss against everything I say and loves to bandy about phrases such as 'self proclaimed expert'.

For an individual in their 40's it's pretty sad. But he does it so often, he's almost a part of the family.

Jimmy James
04-05-2006, 12:10 PM
GUESS THE RECEIVER:

Receiver one:
Positives: Superb concentration on the ball. ... Makes difficult catches in traffic. ... Excels at running underneath routes, but has speed and burst to turn them into long gains. ... Has size and strength to fight off jams at the line. ... Runs precise routes.

Negatives: NFL teams don't know how effective he can be on deep routes because he didn't run many of them in college. ... Must improve blocking technique and develop a more aggressive attitude toward making contact.

Receiver two:
Positives: Solidly built pass catcher with long legs … Very physical with defensive backs, using his hands well to push off to create space … Does a nice job of positioning his body to go up and haul down the pass in traffic … Shows excellent concentration, exploding in his cuts and executing fluid stutter-step moves in his routes … Long strider with explosive acceleration in the open … Has great body control and the ability to make the acrobatic catches … Stays low in and out of his cuts, displaying the separation quickness to consistently go deep … Has superb acceleration and attacks defenders after the catch … Extends and adjusts well going for the ball in traffic … Has the power to drive defenders off when breaking back for the ball … Gets into his routes fluidly, using his quick feet to make sudden moves after the catch.
Negatives: Has toughness going over the middle, but rarely faces up to the defender when blocking … Needs to drop his hips quicker when running patterns … Has great hands, but will double catch at times … Fiesty runner after the catch, but is more of a straight-line type, not showing the shake needed to consistently elude … Has a pair of the smallest hands in college football.

arsenal
04-05-2006, 12:20 PM
^they both sound like chad jackson to me, i wouldn't say either is santonio holmes, but im guessing one of em is jackson and one is holmes? or are you comparing other people?

TotoreMexico
04-05-2006, 12:20 PM
I dont want to draft a WR myself, but I dont understand what this shows. Alot of first round players fail to live up to expectations at every position. I've yet to see anything that suggests 1st round WRs bust at a higher rate then any other position.

Me neither, we drafted Chambers in the 2nd round remember? I think we can find a good Wr in the 3rd or 4th rounds

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 12:21 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce my very own internet stalker. Blue Fin likes to follow me round Fin Heaven, arguing the toss against everything I say and loves to bandy about phrases such as 'self proclaimed expert'.

For an individual in their 40's it's pretty sad. But he does it so often, he's almost a part of the family.

Dude, whats sad is your post, someone that disagrees with you quite frequently is a stalker?

You don't address the discussion at hand, you go right to personal attacks.

I'm no different than anybody else here, I respond to discussions that interest me, and when someone makes an ignorant statement like (this Florida receiver is not a good prospect because recent past Florida receivers were busts) I point it out.

I don't follow anyone around this board, thats quite an immature reaction and post Boomer.

Motion
04-05-2006, 12:29 PM
I absolutely salute you for not being a sheep. That's why the draft is so good because all of us differ in opinions on players. It'd be a very boring process if we all agreed. That said, my being an FSU fan really doesn't come into it when I look at the draft. Far from it in fact. I grade out a Cane and a Gator the same way I'd grade out a Nole.

In terms of consistency from a QB, it's still the same passer regardless of the system. Which means the ball comes the same way, he understands the velocity, the ball positioning and after 3 years together, regardless of offensive mindset, they should still be on the same page.

Aggression going for the ball doesn't mean working the middle. It means using your obvious physical tools to outbattle a corner. It means giving up your body when the backs are running your way.

Fair enough

Motion
04-05-2006, 12:32 PM
GUESS THE RECEIVER:

Receiver one: Jackson
Positives: Superb concentration on the ball. ... Makes difficult catches in traffic. ... Excels at running underneath routes, but has speed and burst to turn them into long gains. ... Has size and strength to fight off jams at the line. ... Runs precise routes.

Negatives: NFL teams don't know how effective he can be on deep routes because he didn't run many of them in college. ... Must improve blocking technique and develop a more aggressive attitude toward making contact.

Receiver two: Holmes
Positives: Solidly built pass catcher with long legs … Very physical with defensive backs, using his hands well to push off to create space … Does a nice job of positioning his body to go up and haul down the pass in traffic … Shows excellent concentration, exploding in his cuts and executing fluid stutter-step moves in his routes … Long strider with explosive acceleration in the open … Has great body control and the ability to make the acrobatic catches … Stays low in and out of his cuts, displaying the separation quickness to consistently go deep … Has superb acceleration and attacks defenders after the catch … Extends and adjusts well going for the ball in traffic … Has the power to drive defenders off when breaking back for the ball … Gets into his routes fluidly, using his quick feet to make sudden moves after the catch.
Negatives: Has toughness going over the middle, but rarely faces up to the defender when blocking … Needs to drop his hips quicker when running patterns … Has great hands, but will double catch at times … Fiesty runner after the catch, but is more of a straight-line type, not showing the shake needed to consistently elude … Has a pair of the smallest hands in college football.

I assume those are the two your referring too? Or is one of them Moss? And where are these opinions from?

Boomer
04-05-2006, 12:34 PM
Fair enough


: shake :

Boomer
04-05-2006, 12:39 PM
Dude, whats sad is your post, someone that disagrees with you quite frequently is a stalker?

You don't address the discussion at hand, you go right to personal attacks.

I'm no different than anybody else here, I respond to discussions that interest me, and when someone makes an ignorant statement like (this Florida receiver is not a good prospect because recent past Florida receivers were busts) I point it out.

I don't follow anyone around this board, thats quite an immature reaction and post Boomer.

You just follow me round trashing me whenever you like, with your pathetic 'self proclaimed expert' nonsense. Not sure where I'm self proclaimed in anything.

Also, where did I make the assumption that because Jack Jackson wasn't an All Pro, nor would Chad Jackson?

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 12:48 PM
You just follow me round trashing me whenever you like, with your pathetic 'self proclaimed expert' nonsense. Not sure where I'm self proclaimed in anything.

Also, where did I make the assumption that because Jack Jackson wasn't an All Pro, nor would Chad Jackson?

Boomer, first of all I was adressing and responding to Jimmy James post, I really wish you would go back and review it and tell me what about my post in response to Jimmy James that you disagree with?

As far as I can tell, you agree with the notion that Chad Jackson should not be marginalized simply because certain past UF receivers were busts.

You've also said that what makes this board great is the varied opinions and discussion thereof, I certainly don't think you disagree with the notion that nobody has a crystal ball when it comes to these prospects.

Again, my post was in response to what Jimmy James posted, it really had nothing to do with you.

Jimmy James
04-05-2006, 12:49 PM
I assume those are the two your referring too? Or is one of them Moss? And where are these opinions from?

They came from NFL.com.

You got #1 right.

#2 was Gaffney.

Jimmy James
04-05-2006, 12:50 PM
^they both sound like chad jackson to me

That's more along the lines of the answer I was looking for. As I mentioned, 1 was Jackson. 2 was Gaffney.

TractorTraylor
04-05-2006, 12:51 PM
They came from NFL.com.

You got #1 right.

#2 was Gaffney.


I had a hard time believing that #2 was holmes with the adequate blocking ability..

Motion
04-05-2006, 12:54 PM
They came from NFL.com.

You got #1 right.

#2 was Gaffney.

I knew 1 was Jackson based on the short routes comment. I'm interested to see how well Gaffney does in Philly.

sports24/7
04-05-2006, 01:07 PM
Second, past UF receivers who have succeeded or failed have absolutely nothing to do with a current one when it comes to predicting his prospects as an NFL receiver....he could be Wes Chandler or he could be Ike Hillard.

I personally think he's way above most of the recent UF wideouts as a prospect. Thats not necessarily true about past recievers compared to Jackson. The reason some feel guys like Travis Taylor, Reche Caldwell, and Taylor Jacobs failed in the NFL was because they were succeeding in Spurrier's Fun and Gun offense which is very different than the offenses run in the NFL. Urban Meyer's offense is not the Fun and Gun, but it also is a gimmicky offense that is very different from the one Jackson will be playing in next year in the NFL.

That being said I think Jackson has the skillset to become a very good WR, but because of his late and rapid rise as Boomer said, and the fact that he is a Gator(coming from that offense) makes me a little weary.

With Holmes you have a guy also with alot of talent but who has always been considered a good prospect and has consistantly shown he has the talent to be a good WR in the NFL. I think Jackson might have a higher ceiling, but is a bigger risk while Holmes ceiling may not be quite as high but is less of a risk. JMO.

Boomer
04-05-2006, 01:08 PM
Boomer, first of all I was adressing and responding to Jimmy James post, I really wish you would go back and review it and tell me what about my post in response to Jimmy James that you disagree with?

As far as I can tell, you agree with the notion that Chad Jackson should not be marginalized simply because certain past UF receivers were busts.

You've also said that what makes this board great is the varied opinions and discussion thereof, I certainly don't think you disagree with the notion that nobody has a crystal ball when it comes to these prospects.

Again, my post was in response to what Jimmy James posted, it really had nothing to do with you.

If it was to Jimmy then I apologise, but you know as well as I do that you love throwing the old 'self proclaimed expert' nonsense around when I'm in the vicinity.

No, I think Jackson's ability as a pro has nothing to do with whether other Gator wideouts have made a succesful transition or not. My issue with Jackson is more about him doing it for a year, in something of a gimmick offense and then hurtling over someone like Holmes who runs quicker and has done it over longer and whose style of play, especially when he doesn't have the ball in his hands, suits our offense better.

It's the same reason why I'm cool on Jonathan Joseph - a years experience and all of a sudden he rips off the big workout and he's a mid 1st rounder?

And no, no-one has a crystal ball, it's the self proclaimed nonsense that pisses me off.

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 01:20 PM
If it was to Jimmy then I apologise, but you know as well as I do that you love throwing the old 'self proclaimed expert' nonsense around when I'm in the vicinity.

No, I think Jackson's ability as a pro has nothing to do with whether other Gator wideouts have made a succesful transition or not. My issue with Jackson is more about him doing it for a year, in something of a gimmick offense and then hurtling over someone like Holmes who runs quicker and has done it over longer and whose style of play, especially when he doesn't have the ball in his hands, suits our offense better.

It's the same reason why I'm cool on Jonathan Joseph - a years experience and all of a sudden he rips off the big workout and he's a mid 1st rounder?

And no, no-one has a crystal ball, it's the self proclaimed nonsense that pisses me off.

Well I accept your apology and I apologize as well if you took that comment as being directed towards you, it was intended as a general comment.

Let me ask you a serious question if I may?, I haven't followed the pro days very closely but you keep saying Holmes is faster than Jackson, yet I remember hearing that Jackson was the fastest receiver at the Combine, did Holmes not run at the combine? Are you referring to Holmes pro day workout? If so, could the differences in running surfaces make a difference when comparing their speed?

NorFlaFin
04-05-2006, 01:31 PM
Boomer,

What was your opinion of Charles Rodgers from MSU in 2003?
My opinion he wasn't mentally focused enough to succeed.

Motion
04-05-2006, 01:32 PM
Let me ask you a serious question if I may?, I haven't followed the pro days very closely but you keep saying Holmes is faster than Jackson, yet I remember hearing that Jackson was the fastest receiver at the Combine, did Holmes not run at the combine? Are you referring to Holmes pro day workout? If so, could the differences in running surfaces make a difference when comparing their speed?

Holmes did not run at the combine. His time at his pro day was not faster than Jackson's combine time.


There were five head coaches present -- Pittsburgh's Bill Cowher, Chicago's Lovie Smith, Detroit's Rod Marinelli, Cleveland's Romeo Crennel and the Giants' Tom Coughlin -- and about 100 team scouts and representatives. The players ran outdoors on a strip of extremely fast AstroTurf that has been down there for some years.
Santonio Holmes, WR
Holmes weighed 179 pounds -- nine less than he did at the Combine -- and he was timed at 4.34 and 4.36 in the 40. He also ran 4.26 in the short shuttle and 6.83 in the cone drill and had a 38-inch vertical jump and 10-foot-6 broad jump.

BlueFin
04-05-2006, 01:40 PM
Holmes did not run at the combine. His time at his pro day was faster than Jackson's but was also supposedly on a very fast track.

So, do we really know for sure Holmes is faster?

I mean, as fast as both of these guys are it really probably doesn't make much difference, but since it was brought up I was curious.

outtawack311
04-05-2006, 01:42 PM
Pat Kirwan on NFL Radio

said a veteran WR coach told him he doesn't want a 4.4 guy, he wants a 4.5 guy who gets in and out of his breaks quickly




*cough* Brandon Marshall *cough*

Motion
04-05-2006, 01:42 PM
So, do we really know for sure Holmes is faster?

I mean, as fast as both of these guys are it really probably doesn't make much difference, but since it was brought up I was curious.

Its so close that it really doesn't matter IMO. Holmes was apparently sick at his pro day and has since gained about 10 pounds.

dan the fin
04-05-2006, 01:58 PM
Its tough but I would go with Holmes over Jackson. While both look good Holmes is more polished Wr. Plus I think Mia needs a WR like him that can take it the Distance on 5-10 yard cathes because his run after the catch ability. While Jackson has comparable striat line speed he is no where close when it comes to acceleration and quickness. I think u saw that last year in the NFL these small quick WR's did great. I think it is because they are breaking down on CB's bumping so much. Instead of being able to bump these guys a little to keep up with them they are going right by the CB's. Rember the Panthers game are CB's did not have the speed to stay with Smith and he just killed us. Also Bills Evens did the same, plus Bucs Galloway. The small fast and quick Wr's killed us last year.

dan the fin
04-05-2006, 02:03 PM
Its so close that it really doesn't matter IMO. Holmes was apparently sick at his pro day and has since gained about 10 pounds.
But thats just Straight line Speed Holmes will play faster because he is Quicker and loses less speed on breaks then Jackson. But jackson will have the advantage in the Red zone.
But for Mia I like holmes cause we have Chambers who is already good on Red zone fades and junp balls. I want that shifty slot Wr that turns a 5 yard slaint into a 80 yard TD. While chambers has great speed he don't has those shifty moves to do that very often. Neither does Jackson.

burger13
04-05-2006, 02:06 PM
But thats just Straight line Speed Holmes will play faster because he is Quicker and loses less speed on breaks then Jackson. But jackson will have the advantage in the Red zone.
But for Mia I like holmes cause we have Chambers who is already good on Red zone fades and junp balls. I want that shifty slot Wr that turns a 5 yard slaint into a 80 yard TD. While chambers has great speed he don't has those shifty moves to do that very often. Neither does Jackson.

:clap: Excellent post.

Tureo
04-05-2006, 08:47 PM
I agree with Boomer on Jackson and Holmes. However it is irrelevent because we will take Jimmy Williams Donte Whitner or a LB, and hopefully it isnt Greenway

finfan54
04-05-2006, 10:25 PM
I dont want to draft a WR myself, but I dont understand what this shows. Alot of first round players fail to live up to expectations at every position. I've yet to see anything that suggests 1st round WRs bust at a higher rate then any other position.


I think the position itself overall is overrated as far as value goes. These are the types who have issues or mouths. Some know how to handle both but it still took them a couple of years to develope. WR's to me have the most possibility of something wrong happening.

If we were to draft a WR I would want the kid from Central Florida.

Boomer
04-06-2006, 11:18 AM
Well I accept your apology and I apologize as well if you took that comment as being directed towards you, it was intended as a general comment.

Let me ask you a serious question if I may?, I haven't followed the pro days very closely but you keep saying Holmes is faster than Jackson, yet I remember hearing that Jackson was the fastest receiver at the Combine, did Holmes not run at the combine? Are you referring to Holmes pro day workout? If so, could the differences in running surfaces make a difference when comparing their speed?

Good question. Santonio didn't run at the Combine. NFL.com has him at 4.34 at the OSU Pro Day, but I know a handful of teams had him at 4.29. But if you look at the OSU players - Mangold, Hawk - their times were down around a 10th of a second, whereas the Florida players were slightly less so. But then the athletes that OSU has, when compared to the Gator guys maybe balances it out some.

Personally I think it should be MANDATORY that everyone works out in Indianapolis. If they want to improve their time at the Pro Day then fine, but lets all get on one surface and all run on the same track so you can chuck out the 'faster surface' mentality.

It's splitting hairs as to who's faster. You're talking minute fractions of seconds.

burger13
04-06-2006, 11:32 AM
Good question. Santonio didn't run at the Combine. NFL.com has him at 4.34 at the OSU Pro Day, but I know a handful of teams had him at 4.29. But if you look at the OSU players - Mangold, Hawk - their times were down around a 10th of a second, whereas the Florida players were slightly less so. But then the athletes that OSU has, when compared to the Gator guys maybe balances it out some.

Personally I think it should be MANDATORY that everyone works out in Indianapolis. If they want to improve their time at the Pro Day then fine, but lets all get on one surface and all run on the same track so you can chuck out the 'faster surface' mentality.

It's splitting hairs as to who's faster. You're talking minute fractions of seconds.

How do you make it mandatory?? Not like I don't understand and appreciate the reasoning in wanting to do so.....but how do you think that you could enforce it??

Look at LenDale White....didn't run at pro day because he 'tweaked' his hammy.....anyone at the combine could pull the same stunt. So what happens when a player refuses? He's not draft eligible? Think the NFLPA would have something to say about that?

Teams could try to take a hard-line approach, but they would just be hurting themselves in the long run....letting obviously talented players past them, who then wind up with the competition.

Just isn't practical, which is why we haven't seen it.

Boomer
04-06-2006, 11:34 AM
Another issue with Jackson is the comfortable way with which Chad Greenway covered him in the Bowl Game. Yes Chad is a very solid cover linebacker, but still.....

Boomer
04-06-2006, 11:38 AM
How do you make it mandatory?? Not like I don't understand and appreciate the reasoning in wanting to do so.....but how do you think that you could enforce it??

Look at LenDale White....didn't run at pro day because he 'tweaked' his hammy.....anyone at the combine could pull the same stunt. So what happens when a player refuses? He's not draft eligible? Think the NFLPA would have something to say about that?

Teams could try to take a hard-line approach, but they would just be hurting themselves in the long run....letting obviously talented players past them, who then wind up with the competition.

Just isn't practical, which is why we haven't seen it.

You make solid points and I'm sure the NFLPA would have an issue, but then you enforce a rule that says a player must run at Indianapolis before running at a University Pro Day. Thus, you give the players that don't run 2 weeks or a month and then you return to Indianapolis. Pain in the asss for those who are stunt pulling, which makes it sort of pointless doing it in the first place. If they don't do it at all, then of course they're draft eligible, but think of the detrimental effect on their stock.

Motion
04-06-2006, 11:42 AM
Another issue with Jackson is the comfortable way with which Chad Greenway covered him in the Bowl Game. Yes Chad is a very solid cover linebacker, but still.....

Neither one of them showed up for that game, I heard Greenway's name maybe twice and the one time was for the questionable offsides call at the end.

Motion
04-06-2006, 11:43 AM
Personally I think it should be MANDATORY that everyone works out in Indianapolis.

:yes:

Boomer
04-06-2006, 12:09 PM
Neither one of them showed up for that game, I heard Greenway's name maybe twice and the one time was for the questionable offsides call at the end.

I tell ya though. Chad J couldn't gain ANY seperation from Chad G, especially in the red zone. Chad G was all over him like a cheap suit.