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TXFinFan
04-24-2006, 10:50 AM
Lawson climbing the boards

While North Carolina State linebacker/defensive end Manny Lawson probably won’t crack the top 10 picks in the draft, at least three prominent scouts said last week that he ultimately could be the biggest star in this draft when it’s all said and done.

“Totally motivated kid,” a scout said of Lawson. “Everything he does seems very intense and purposeful. He’s smart and I think he sees the big picture of what he can be and do for himself with this.”

Lawson is a pretty reasonable facsimile of Miami Dolphins defensive end Jason Taylor. At 6-foot-4, 245 pounds, Lawson is long and lean. He runs a 4.45 40-yard dash and scored a 40 on the Wunderlich exam, meaning his extraordinarily bright. Further proof of that is that Lawson already has a degree in engineering.

Furthermore, if Lawson ends up with a team that can play him as an open-side linebacker in a 3-4, he might be unstoppable.

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 10:52 AM
The problem is that Miami *has* a Jason Taylor already. What Miami needs is a player on the opposite side who is a real linebacker who can both cover and rush.

nick1
04-24-2006, 11:20 AM
The problem is that Miami *has* a Jason Taylor already. What Miami needs is a player on the opposite side who is a real linebacker who can both cover and rush.
completely disagree, Lawson is a big playmaker. he's the type of guy we want. he can provide a tremendous rush and with Taylor on the other side we would rack up the sacks. Taylor is getting old and when he's gone we still want to have that big playmaker on D. Lawson will be that playmaker.

arsenal
04-24-2006, 11:24 AM
completely disagree, Lawson is a big playmaker. he's the type of guy we want. he can provide a tremendous rush and with Taylor on the other side we would rack up the sacks. Taylor is getting old and when he's gone we still want to have that big playmaker on D. Lawson will be that playmaker.

no cause playing on the opposite side of JT this year will mean a lot more coverage than just rushing the QB...

but i didn't know he got a 40 on the wonderlich, not bad... ive never been high on the guy though, i dont want us to pick him...

DNADD
04-24-2006, 11:26 AM
Lawson would be a great asset to The Dolphins. And, with all the attention Saban gives to character of players, I wouldn't be shocked if he ended up here, although I think it is unlikely.

GCD960
04-24-2006, 11:55 AM
The problem is that Miami *has* a Jason Taylor already. What Miami needs is a player on the opposite side who is a real linebacker who can both cover and rush.

Thats a great problem to have...

Heres a question. The LB that plays the other side of JT, what are his duties?
Would they be the same thing or same type of roll? Theoretically, can JT play both sides at the same time?

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 12:00 PM
Thats a great problem to have...

Heres a question. The LB that plays the other side of JT, what are his duties?
Would they be the same thing or same type of roll? Theoretically, can JT play both sides at the same time?

Back when we played a vanilla 4-3, the answer was yes.

Now that we're playing this crazy defense I think of as a 5-2 with a couple of 4-3 variants and a substantial 3-4 variant, the answer is no. There can be only one JT. The other linebackers have to be linebackers. I believe Saban indicated that Taylor on one side with Arrington playing the linebacker on the other side was a good bit like what he wants. Arrington obviously isn't going to happen, but the goal should be to find a linebacker who does the things Nick valued in him.

Geforce
04-24-2006, 12:38 PM
Back when we played a vanilla 4-3, the answer was yes.

Now that we're playing this crazy defense I think of as a 5-2 with a couple of 4-3 variants and a substantial 3-4 variant, the answer is no. There can be only one JT. The other linebackers have to be linebackers. I believe Saban indicated that Taylor on one side with Arrington playing the linebacker on the other side was a good bit like what he wants. Arrington obviously isn't going to happen, but the goal should be to find a linebacker who does the things Nick valued in him.

That's the thing, Lawson can do those things. He can be used standing up or with his hand on the ground, much like Taylor and Arrington. Lawson also dropped into coverage during some of NC State's blitz packages.

If Capers runs the defense similar to the one he had in Carolina, then speed is one of the top criterias and Lawson has ample amounts of that.

TXFinFan
04-24-2006, 12:57 PM
I don't see how 2 Jason Taylors could possibly be a bad thing.

arsenal
04-24-2006, 01:00 PM
That's the thing, Lawson can do those things. He can be used standing up or with his hand on the ground, much like Taylor and Arrington. Lawson also dropped into coverage during some of NC State's blitz packages.

If Capers runs the defense similar to the one he had in Carolina, then speed is one of the top criterias and Lawson has ample amounts of that.

anyone can drop into zone blitzing coverages, **** you see defensive tackles doing it even...

but that doesn't mean you want that guy covering a RB out of the backfield or a TE in man coverage...

and theres nothing wrong with having two tason taylors... the problem is having 2 of em on the field at the same time... one of them will be out of their element...

Geforce
04-24-2006, 01:14 PM
anyone can drop into zone blitzing coverages, **** you see defensive tackles doing it even...

but that doesn't mean you want that guy covering a RB out of the backfield or a TE in man coverage...

and theres nothing wrong with having two tason taylors... the problem is having 2 of em on the field at the same time... one of them will be out of their element...

You're right, anyone can drop into zone blitz coverage but Lawson was an OLB before moving to DE. He also covered TEs during that time so he has some knowledge of being in man to man coverage.

As far as being out their element, wasn't Jason out of his element dropping into coverage last year, atleast early on?

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 02:06 PM
I don't see how 2 Jason Taylors could possibly be a bad thing.

Why not just make it 52 Jason Taylors? :shakeno:

Everybody has a job to do, and those jobs often require different skills. Taylor has different skills than the linebacker playing opposite him in the 3-4 needs. It's just that simple.

nick1
04-24-2006, 02:08 PM
Why not just make it 52 Jason Taylors? :shakeno:

Everybody has a job to do, and those jobs often require different skills. Taylor has different skills than the linebacker playing opposite him in the 3-4 needs. It's just that simple.
Taylor can do everything, I'm not joking. he dropped into coverage and did well. he's a tremendous pass rusher of course and he is also very good at stopping the run

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 02:22 PM
Taylor can do everything, I'm not joking. he dropped into coverage and did well. he's a tremendous pass rusher of course and he is also very good at stopping the run

I think Taylor *can* drop into coverage, but I don't think Nick would literally move him to a position where that was all he was going to do because he would be too much of a liability to do it full time. He'd get exposed too much.

There are periods when the guy opposite Taylor is going to have to do nothing but cover. They're going to be much more extensively involved in coverage than Taylor is. That means that if Lawson is Taylor, he's going to have to come out of the game during those times. That makes Lawson a part time player as a linebacker. I'd much rather have a full timer like Carpenter.

kpcane
04-24-2006, 03:01 PM
He runs a 4.45 40 and you guys think he won't be able to cover TE's? Seriously?

He's been the guy I've wanted us to draft for a long time. Had no idea he has an engineering degree. Nothing like combating the "cerebral" attacks of peyton manning

PhinsPhan
04-24-2006, 03:10 PM
Well now I think it is safe to say we are seriously considering a OLB in the first round since we didn't get Lavar. But why is having Lawson going to be a burden on our defense. I understand the coverage part but understand this. We were trying to get Lavar. If you think Arrington is great at everything you would be wrong. This is a guy who is exceptional in pass rushing and highly athletic. He is adequete in run support and coverage. If we were trying to get a guy like Arrington for this defense why wouldn't we be trying to get a guy like Lawson.

He is more than athletic enough to cover for any deficiencies that he "supposedly" has. Demarcus Ware did it last year for Dallas and when I saw him play he was less athletic than Lawson and played purely as a DE in his college career and he was still fine in coverage.

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 03:14 PM
He runs a 4.45 40 and you guys think he won't be able to cover TE's? Seriously?

By all means, let's just bring in track stars to be linebackers. Oh, you say that they aren't bulky enough? Make them cornerbacks! :shakeno:

You can't take the 40 time and use it to suggest he can cover any more than you can do that for anybody.

arsenal
04-24-2006, 03:27 PM
You're right, anyone can drop into zone blitz coverage but Lawson was an OLB before moving to DE. He also covered TEs during that time so he has some knowledge of being in man to man coverage.

As far as being out their element, wasn't Jason out of his element dropping into coverage last year, atleast early on?

i love JT, but im much more comfortable with him NOT dropping into coverage, haha...

the OLB opposite JT would be in coverage more than he would be rushing the passer, yes JT CAN cover and lawson probably CAN cover... but that doesn't mean you want to have to rely on that player to cover often...

if we get manny id want him as the backup and eventual replacement for JT... he wouldn't be here to be on the field at the same time as JT at the other OLB spot... thats all, his skill set isn't for that position, its for the OE position where we already have JT...

so if your hoping to get our starting SLB in this draft, dont hope we draft lawson, because thats not where hes best suited to play...

Marino13fanboy1
04-24-2006, 03:31 PM
If Manny Lawson is available at #16, he's OURS.........count on it!!!

At least I hope.

Phins28
04-24-2006, 03:38 PM
The problem is that Miami *has* a Jason Taylor already. What Miami needs is a player on the opposite side who is a real linebacker who can both cover and rush.

I ask Boomer 2 weeks ago if Lawson can play the strong side LB, and his answer was yes. Remember he played LB for 2 years then he was moved to DE.

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 03:40 PM
I ask Boomer 2 weeks ago if Lawson can play the strong side LB, and his answer was yes. Remember he played LB for 2 years then he was moved to DE.

I'm less certain about it than Boomer is to say the least. I do respect bringing in the opinion of a trusted source to support your position, though.

GCD960
04-24-2006, 03:40 PM
I dont think we need to look for JTs replacement yet. If that is all Manny could do then I wouldnt want him picked with our 1st pick. Id want our 1st to have significant playing time for us this year.

Geforce
04-24-2006, 03:45 PM
I dont think we need to look for JTs replacement yet. If that is all Manny could do then I wouldnt want him picked with our 1st pick. Id want our 1st to have significant playing time for us this year.

Now that's another issue. There is no guarantee that any player we draft at 16 will be a starter. We may want them to be a starter but it will come down to how fast they can pick up the system and/or adjust to the speed of the NFL. They will however get significant playing time.

rafael
04-24-2006, 04:17 PM
I would be very comfortable with Lawson opposite JT. He played at LB for two years and IMO was better there, particularly in coverage. His weakness was that he wasn't as stout against the run when up on the line. I think he has the body and mind to learn from JT how to improve that aspect of his game. I describe Lawson as a JT if JT had spent all his time at LB and hadn't spent as much time learning how to play straight up against bigger OL.

arsenal
04-24-2006, 04:19 PM
I ask Boomer 2 weeks ago if Lawson can play the strong side LB, and his answer was yes. Remember he played LB for 2 years then he was moved to DE.

he played 1 season at OLB for NCstate before they moved him to DE... his freshman year he was only on the field as a special teamer...

i think theres a possiblity he could play SLB, but do you think he'll come in and be a factor there right away? i dont... i think it'll take time for him to get accustomed to it, especially after 2 years of playing DE, especially in the complex saban scheme... though he is smart so that should help...

but either way i just have never been real high on the guy as a football player, hes got great speed and measurables but thats about it... i dont know, if we do pick him i hope he proves me wrong...

Ghetti13
04-24-2006, 04:22 PM
I think Lawson is a reach at 16. To me, he is a straight line athlete. Straight line "clock" athletes scare me.

I like body control athletes. Lawson is not one if these. He is stiff and very straight line-ish. He just does not really impress me on tape.

I would not touch him in round one. I hope Saban agrees, but it not, I will know I am wrong, cause Saban is outstanding.

nick1
04-24-2006, 04:43 PM
I really want Lawson in the 1st, he's going to be an outstanding player

miadfins
04-24-2006, 05:01 PM
I think Lawson is a reach at 16. To me, he is a straight line athlete. Straight line "clock" athletes scare me.

I like body control athletes. Lawson is not one if these. He is stiff and very straight line-ish. He just does not really impress me on tape.

I would not touch him in round one. I hope Saban agrees, but it not, I will know I am wrong, cause Saban is outstanding.

he is really quick changing directions, you can see that in his combine times.

Ghetti13
04-24-2006, 05:18 PM
Combine times can be very, very misleading.

Changing direction is much more about body contol and ability to adapt to awkward situations and positions. It is not about whether a guy can run a short shuttle in a certain time.

When I watch him on tape I see a stiff player who is not near the "body control" athlete that Mario Williams is. For instance.

nick1
04-24-2006, 05:22 PM
one reason I like Lawson is that he can absolutely overpower a linemen, he is very surprisingly strong. and he has great speed to go with that strengh

Ghetti13
04-24-2006, 05:26 PM
He won't be overpowering many Pro tackles, guards, and centers.

Great straight line speed is overrated. You need to be quick, smart, and strong enough to put yourself in a situation to use that speed. Otherwise, its useless.

dominizzo
04-24-2006, 05:28 PM
Lawson is great!!!1 But what about Roth!! He has to have a chance

kpcane
04-24-2006, 05:40 PM
By all means, let's just bring in track stars to be linebackers. Oh, you say that they aren't bulky enough? Make them cornerbacks! :shakeno:

You can't take the 40 time and use it to suggest he can cover any more than you can do that for anybody.

Of course, you'd be making a great point if we were talking about corners. But the reason people say DE's can't cover TE's and RB's is because they are too slow. Manny Lawson isn't too slow...that's the point. He's very athletic too, so I don't imagine him having too many problems covering guys.

Now since you're so smart, tell us why Manny Lawson can't cover guys, or were you just taking the opportunity to be a jack@ss to somebody?

Ghetti13
04-24-2006, 05:48 PM
Personally, I think Lawson could struggle covering backs and wide receivers.

I just don't know if he has the hips and body control to do it at a high level. Yeah, he can run with them if their all running go route's. But, everyone is not going to be running all go routes.

For instance, when I watch Lawson and Greenway on tape, Greenway appears to be a much superior athlete. He shows better hips and better body control.

This is a similar comparison for the wide receivers too. Holmes shows better hips and body control than Jackson. That is why I like Holmes better.

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 07:10 PM
Of course, you'd be making a great point if we were talking about corners. But the reason people say DE's can't cover TE's and RB's is because they are too slow.

Not this guy. I think speed is uniformly overrated.


Now since you're so smart, tell us why Manny Lawson can't cover guys

1) He hasn't done it with regularity
2) There are people (as you have seen in this thread) who question his hips. He can run a pretty drill. That isn't the same as covering a real receiver.


or were you just taking the opportunity to be a jack@ss to somebody?

Who is the jackass? Note that it isn't covered by the profanity filter. :D

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 07:11 PM
For instance, when I watch Lawson and Greenway on tape, Greenway appears to be a much superior athlete. He shows better hips and better body control.

To be sure, Greenway is the man in coverage. He's almost the opposite of Lawson, though -- he wasn't asked to rush the passer on a regular basis. That seems important to Saban.

Ghetti13
04-24-2006, 07:20 PM
But that does not address your point. I agree that Lawson is better rushing the passer.

Your point was that Lawson will excel in pass coverage because of his workout athleticism. I was therefore providing an instance and illustration as to why I think workout athleticism does not necessarily translate into football athleticism.

Jimmy James
04-24-2006, 07:31 PM
But that does not address your point. I agree that Lawson is better rushing the passer.

Your point was that Lawson will excel in pass coverage because of his workout athleticism. I was therefore providing an instance and illustration as to why I think workout athleticism does not necessarily translate into football athleticism.

You have me mixed up with somebody else. I am with you on Lawson. I'm the guy pushing Bobby Carpenter as the guy who can cover and rush. :D

ckparrothead
04-24-2006, 07:36 PM
The problem is that Miami *has* a Jason Taylor already. What Miami needs is a player on the opposite side who is a real linebacker who can both cover and rush.

Which is exactly what Lawson is.

Bjorn
04-24-2006, 07:52 PM
Lawson climbing the boards

While North Carolina State linebacker/defensive end Manny Lawson probably won’t crack the top 10 picks in the draft, at least three prominent scouts said last week that he ultimately could be the biggest star in this draft when it’s all said and done.

“Totally motivated kid,” a scout said of Lawson. “Everything he does seems very intense and purposeful. He’s smart and I think he sees the big picture of what he can be and do for himself with this.”

Lawson is a pretty reasonable facsimile of Miami Dolphins defensive end Jason Taylor. At 6-foot-4, 245 pounds, Lawson is long and lean. He runs a 4.45 40-yard dash and scored a 40 on the Wunderlich exam, meaning his extraordinarily bright. Further proof of that is that Lawson already has a degree in engineering.

Furthermore, if Lawson ends up with a team that can play him as an open-side linebacker in a 3-4, he might be unstoppable.

Hopefully one of those three scouts belongs to Miami, because I really want to see Manny in Miami.:wink:

Bjorn
04-24-2006, 07:56 PM
The problem is that Miami *has* a Jason Taylor already. What Miami needs is a player on the opposite side who is a real linebacker who can both cover and rush.


1. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have the physical presence of 2 Jason Taylor's on the field.

2. If we get Manny, and after a year or 2 if he develops into a player of Jason Taylor's caliber, Then we might be able to get a trade for JT. I particularly would like him to finish his career in Miami, but Saban has stated that this is a business. And if we could get a first or second round pick for JT in a couple years when I am assuming he will show his age, it will be for the better.

RUDEbyallMEANS
04-25-2006, 06:03 AM
Looking at film on Lawson, he will not be available for Miami to pick. This guy has a non-stop motor which is not attached to his name everytime someone talks about him because of his outstanding athleticism. There is a reason why he was the Defensive lineman of the year (or most valuable d-lineman) for NC State 2 years in a row. For that same reason, he will be gone by the time pick #16 is on the clock.

kpcane
04-25-2006, 10:22 AM
Not this guy. I think speed is uniformly overrated.

1) He hasn't done it with regularity
2) There are people (as you have seen in this thread) who question his hips. He can run a pretty drill. That isn't the same as covering a real receiver.



I'm not buying anything you're saying. The reasons you gave for him not being able to cover are very weak. I think he could easily be coached up over training camp. Speed is not overrated...at all. 2002 Bucs, case in point.

TXFinFan
04-25-2006, 10:51 AM
I'm not buying anything you're saying. The reasons you gave for him not being able to cover are very weak. I think he could easily be coached up over training camp. Speed is not overrated...at all. 2002 Bucs, case in point.

I agree. He is very vocal about Lawson, but he has produced no solid evidence to prove that Lawson can't play coverage. I think he is just in love with Carpenter as a player.

Jimmy James
04-25-2006, 11:02 AM
I agree. He is very vocal about Lawson, but he has produced no solid evidence to prove that Lawson can't play coverage. I think he is just in love with Carpenter as a player.

What the hell do you people expect?

How about this from his coach's own mouth:


Do you anticipate moving Manny Lawson back to linebacker next year?

Absolutely not. He moved down for a reason. He wasn’t real natural or comfortable back there at linebacker. And we’re going to fine at linebacker. We’ve got a couple surprise players that we think you’ll be excited about in the very near future.

http://ncstate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=355958

Now who is in love? :rolleyes2

TXFinFan
04-25-2006, 11:53 AM
What the hell do you people expect?

How about this from his coach's own mouth:



http://ncstate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=355958

Now who is in love? :rolleyes2

OK. That's reasonable evidence. BTW, what did I do to deserve 2 Roll Eyes in one thread? :mad:

Jimmy James
04-25-2006, 12:43 PM
OK. That's reasonable evidence. BTW, what did I do to deserve 2 Roll Eyes in one thread? :mad:

Dude, I live for the rolling eyes. I don't mean it personally. :)

nick1
04-25-2006, 01:19 PM
Lawson can and will learn to play OLB, you guys have no reason to doubt him. he is very smart and is very gifted athletically. it's Saban's call but I trust him over the NCS head coach

TXFinFan
04-25-2006, 01:25 PM
Dude, I live for the rolling eyes. I don't mean it personally. :)

OK. Cool. :D

I also think Carpenter is a good player, I just think he would be better value later in the 1st round.