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LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 03:36 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&ncid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20030320/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_iraq_reax_2


Early morning anti-war protests where reported at Cairo University and Al-Azhar University — at the latter, a venerable Islamic institution in Cairo, students chanted: "Patience, patience, oh Bush, tomorrow the Muslims will dig your grave."

Call me crazy but "venerable institution" doesn't sound like a minority institution to me.



In the Palestinian areas, about 700 Palestinians, most of them schoolchildren, waved Iraqi flags and posters of Saddam and burned two U.S. flags after the attack.

Ahh, nothing like passing on hatred to your young.


I'm not trying to call you out, I am just wondering what your thoughts are regarding this report. Peace

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 03:39 PM
I accidentally cut this little nugget out of my original post




The Palestinians in the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun shouted "Death to America, death to Bush," and "We will sacrifice our soul and our blood for Saddam."

PhinPhan1227
03-20-2003, 03:54 PM
"Early morning anti-war protests where reported at Cairo University and Al-Azhar University — at the latter, a venerable Islamic institution in Cairo, students chanted: "Patience, patience, oh Bush, tomorrow the Muslims will dig your grave." "

Ahhh...peace loving college kids!!....:)

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 04:01 PM
Well, I don't like it, but why do you ask? Is it because I called people out for making insensitive remarks towards these groups? Not everyone in that region is like that, and it unfortunate that some are. Just because some people (or a lot) in the Middle East are intolerant and hate America doesn't make it right to show the same disrespect to their religion and the Arab race.

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
Well, I don't like it, but why do you ask? Is it because I called people out for making insensitive remarks towards these groups? Not everyone in that region is like that, and it unfortunate that some are. Just because some people (or a lot) in the Middle East are intolerant and hate America doesn't make it right to show the same disrespect to their religion and the Arab race.

I asked because you vehemently defend the Muslims and the Palestinians. But you just answered my question, by CONCEDING that A LOT in the Mid East HATE America. That is quite a concession from the minority that you have stated time and time again.


I agree with you that we should be tolerant as possible and should not pigeon hole all Muslims, just because of the actions of the radicals. But when we are referring to the radicals, no holds barred baby. Kill em ALL, and let Allah sort em out.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 04:19 PM
I said (or a lot). I don't have any facts that prove if it is a minority or a little more that hate America, but it is most likely a minority. Also, I defend Palestinians because they are pushed in poverty and killed by Israelis. There are reasons why the USA is the only nation to give strong support to Israel, and there are reasons why there are many UN resolutions against Israel. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the Israel occupation kills many innocents and is wrong, many Israels don't like it. I am not really pro-Palestinian, but I think both Palestinians and Israelis are guilty. Israel has a terrible leader, Ariel Sharon, who is responsible for the deaths of over 2,000 innocent Palestinians (over a period of 20 years). There is something wrong with that, and you can't defend it. I have no idea how that psycho got elected, and then re-elected. A new Palestinian PM was placed into power and hopefully he is a lot better then Arafat, who also sucks.

I totally agree with your second paragraph. I fully support the war on Iraq, and always have. Also, I heard we are very close to catching bin Laden.

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
I said (or a lot). I don't have any facts that prove if it is a minority or a little more that hate America, but it is most likely a minority. Also, I defend Palestinians because they are pushed in poverty and killed by Israelis. There are reasons why the USA is the only nation to give strong support to Israel, and there are reasons why there are many UN resolutions against Israel. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the Israel occupation kills many innocents and is wrong, many Israels don't like it. I am not really pro-Palestinian, but I think both Palestinians and Israelis are guilty. Israel has a terrible leader, Ariel Sharon, who is responsible for the deaths of over 2,000 innocent Palestinians (over a period of 20 years). There is something wrong with that, and you can't defend it. I have no idea how that psycho got elected, and then re-elected. A new Palestinian PM was placed into power and hopefully he is a lot better then Arafat, who also sucks.

I totally agree with your second paragraph. I fully support the war on Iraq, and always have. Also, I heard we are very close to catching bin Laden.


I can agree with that. Both leaders are bad news. It just seems like you defend them all sometimes,but obviously you're making it clear you dont defend the radicals. I understand and agree with your post.

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 04:38 PM
Also, and I know you wont like this but if Palestine lost the war, why are they continuing to fight for land? They LOST, it sucks, but that's the way it goes. In a perfect world, two states would be established and all would be well. But unfortunately, the sticking point is the sacred holy land so I dont see a resolution.

PhinPhan1227
03-20-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
I have no idea how that psycho got elected, and then re-elected. .


Pretty simple really....if you apply enough terror to a people, they'll eventually respond by saying "we don't care HOW you make it stop, just make it stop. As much as it sucks, Palistinian terrorists put Sharon in power.

dolphan39
03-20-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
Israel has a terrible leader, Ariel Sharon, who is responsible for the deaths of over 2,000 innocent Palestinians (over a period of 20 years). so you are saying that the US would have a terrible leader in Bush responsible for the death of innocent Iraqis if those Iraqis supported Sadaam Hussein ?

or more closely that the US killed innocent Afghans if those Afghans supported the Taliban ?

to me you are saying the people are absolved of their responsibility for supporting a terrorist are their rule

PhinPhan1227
03-20-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
Also, and I know you wont like this but if Palestine lost the war, why are they continuing to fight for land? They LOST, it sucks, but that's the way it goes. In a perfect world, two states would be established and all would be well. But unfortunately, the sticking point is the sacred holy land so I dont see a resolution.


As far as "holy land" goes, it DOES belong to the Jews. Both Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judeism, so it's insane to say that either religion has a better claim to Jerusalem than the Jews do.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by dolphan39
so you are saying that the US would have a terrible leader in Bush responsible for the death of innocent Iraqis if those Iraqis supported Sadaam Hussein ?

or more closely that the US killed innocent Afghans if those Afghans supported the Taliban ?

to me you are saying the people are absolved of their responsibility for supporting a terrorist are their rule

If our army killed civilians, and killed many of them, and Bush tolerated these acts like Sharon does (calling an attack that kills 1 terrorist and 10 civilians a "success"), then yes, I would call Bush a terrible leader. Then again, our army doesn't kill civilians, and doesn't kill children on a daily basis.

Also, the Iraqis have no choice but to support Saddam. If they don't, they die.

There are reasons why our army never targets civilians, even if they may "support" something we disagree with.

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
As far as "holy land" goes, it DOES belong to the Jews. Both Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judeism, so it's insane to say that either religion has a better claim to Jerusalem than the Jews do.



This is where it becomes painfully clear that I'm no expert on this matter. But I've never claimed to be , at least. From what I do understand, ast it was just reaffirmed by 1227 is that the land is Israel's and they have won it time and again and now are in control. But the Palestians just wont let it go and continue to fight, which is why I find it difficult to support them. Israel is not without blame, but to me, Palestine is far more at fault. They need to take their ball, and go home (wherever that is) Again, I dont know what their boundaries SHOULD be.

And then I hear all of these gracious remarks and it's hard for me to like them.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Pretty simple really....if you apply enough terror to a people, they'll eventually respond by saying "we don't care HOW you make it stop, just make it stop. As much as it sucks, Palistinian terrorists put Sharon in power.

If Israel pulled out, the violence would die down. The occupation presses people and the reason why these attacks happen is because Palestinians think it is their only option. I think terrorism is terrible, and that suicide bombers are terrible, and that the ones who blow themselves up are wrong. However, you also have to consider that Sharon refuses to even negotiate. How can you get peace if you won't negotiate?

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
They need to take their ball, and go home (wherever that is) Again, I dont know what their boundaries SHOULD be.

Their home is the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel occupies it and builds settlements. Every nation on earth, including the USA, tells them not to do either. Bush even said last week that Israel must stop building settlements.

The Palestinians are home right now, whose right is it to tell them they have to move? Israel has to do the right thing, which is pull out, and give the Palestinians their land. They can live side by side, it is possible.

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
If Israel pulled out, the violence would die down. The occupation presses people and the reason why these attacks happen is because Palestinians think it is their only option. I think terrorism is terrible, and that suicide bombers are terrible, and that the ones who blow themselves up are wrong. However, you also have to consider that Sharon refuses to even negotiate. How can you get peace if you won't negotiate?


If it's their land, then why should he negotiate? Obviously their land is worth dying for, so no negotiations. The only thing that I dislike is Sharon resorting to terrorist tactics. Also, what I dont get is if the U.S supports Israel enough to pi$$ off the middle east, then why not go all the way and bomb the Palestines off the holy land (I think it's the West Bank, again I'm trying to learn this stuff). That way at least it would stop the terrorist attacks (for now anyway) Are they not stopping it because they know the minute they leave it will start back up?

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
Their home is the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel occupies it and builds settlements. Every nation on earth, including the USA, tells them not to do either. Bush even said last week that Israel must stop building settlements.

The Palestinians are home right now, whose right is it to tell them they have to move? Israel has to do the right thing, which is pull out, and give the Palestinians their land. They can live side by side, it is possible.


If that's the case, we need to tell Israel to listen to us or we will not help them. I do remember my buddy who is a political expert saying Israel needs to listen to us a lot better. I agree Palestine deserves their own state, just not Israel's holy land. I'm all confused now. Ice paints it like Israel is being a bully, and I've heard that Palestine is on Israel's holy land. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE CLEAR THIS UP FOR ME? I'm thinkin it's a little bit of BOTH, hence the debate and conflict.

dolphan39
03-20-2003, 05:33 PM
LFC there is a small %age of the land of that the PLO and Israelis argue about. The PLO can have their state and 95% of the land they want, but they want part of Jerusalem and some of the West Bank. Plus or minus a sq km

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
If it's their land, then why should he negotiate? Obviously their land is worth dying for, so no negotiations. The only thing that I dislike is Sharon resorting to terrorist tactics. Also, what I dont get is if the U.S supports Israel enough to pi$$ off the middle east, then why not go all the way and bomb the Palestines off the holy land (I think it's the West Bank, again I'm trying to learn this stuff). That way at least it would stop the terrorist attacks (for now anyway) Are they not stopping it because they know the minute they leave it will start back up?

It is the Palestinians land. Israel took over the land in the 1967 war and have occupied it ever since. People lived on that land, and you can't just tell them they have to go, because that is their home. The USA also gives Palestine money and trained their police. I personally think giving money to either side is ridiculous, since the money just goes to killing innocents. The USA wants to be a middleman between Israeli and Palestinian negotiations, and doesn't want to go into the West Bank to arrest terrorists.

Every nation on earth besides Israel thinks the West Bank and Gaza Strip belong to the Palestinians, and what Israel is doing is pointless. The occupation is unproductive, terrorist attacks still occur (and won't stop until the occupation ends), and in the end it will be the Palestinians land anyway. After this war, Bush is going to put his attention to getting a Palestinian state, and he wants to invite their new PM (who I hope is good unlike Arafat) to Washington.

I'm done talking about this subject....

I don't think one side is more guilty then the other. Both sides kill many innocents although Israelis kill triple the amount of innocent Palestinians. Both sides are guilty, and both sides have their flaws. I really hope the USA can step up and finally get a deal done. It would have gotten done 10 years ago but the Israeli PM was assassinated by a man who didn't want a Palestinian state, and it started this whole killing thing again.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by dolphan39
LFC there is a small %age of the land of that the PLO and Israelis argue about. The PLO can have their state and 95% of the land they want, but they want part of Jerusalem and some of the West Bank. Plus or minus a sq km

I am not sure, but I think the Palestinians want a small Islamic section of Jerusalem.

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 05:38 PM
This is educational, I only want to understand. Where does Lebanon more specifically Beirut fit in to all of this? There is always conflict there or is it totally separate?

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
If that's the case, we need to tell Israel to listen to us or we will not help them. I do remember my buddy who is a political expert saying Israel needs to listen to us a lot better. I agree Palestine deserves their own state, just not Israel's holy land. I'm all confused now. Ice paints it like Israel is being a bully, and I've heard that Palestine is on Israel's holy land. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE CLEAR THIS UP FOR ME? I'm thinkin it's a little bit of BOTH, hence the debate and conflict.

I'm an atheist so I don't know much about the Israeli "holy land," but Israel is supposed to go back to their pre-1967 borders (according to the UN), which is the land that they started with when the nation was created. Israel should listen to the US and the whole world a lot more than they do. Israel doesn't listen at all to the UN, which is a huge problem.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
This is educational, I only want to understand. Where does Lebanon more specifically Beirut fit in to all of this? There is always conflict there or is it totally separate?

There was some Palestinian massacre in Beirut around 20 years ago. I don't know too much about it, but I do know that Ariel Sharon had a lot to do with it.

Lebanon is also the home of Hezbollah, which is a terrorist group that has committed acts towards Israel and the USA. I am not sure if Lebanon supports Hezbollah, or if they just took their land. Hezbollah doesn't commit as many terrorist attacks as Hamas but theirs are more serious and kill more. Hamas has only targeted Israel in their attacks.

dolphan39
03-20-2003, 05:47 PM
Lebanon is basically a puppet for Syria though there are several groups there influenced/funded by Iran

LeftCoastPhin
03-20-2003, 06:08 PM
LOL, now I know why I never wanted to know. It's confusing and all messed up. But it's good to know, so I'm trying harder.

Ice, I respect your decision and right to be an athesist. I'm not religious but I have a strong faith in God. God doesn't want us to be religious, he wants us to have a personal relationship with him. There is a huge difference between religion and faith. If you ever want to talk about faith or have any questions or want me to give reasons why you should have faith in the Lord, please feel free to ask Ice. I'd be more than happy to answer questions. I'm not one to push beliefs, that's why I'm opening the door Ice, I will not convey my beliefs unto you unless you ask. Peace bro.

PhinPhan1227
03-20-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
I am not sure, but I think the Palestinians want a small Islamic section of Jerusalem.


Actually, they want a good sized chunk of it, and that's the sticking point. Israel offered to give up the "occupied" lands, but the PLO turned them down unless they get a chunk of Jerusalem as well. Quite honestly what it comes down to NOW is that the Palestinian leaders are in power because of their peoples hatred of Israel and thier abuses, and Israels leaders are in power for the same reason. Neither side's LEADERS have ANY motivation to work for peace. Israel at least tired the last time around because of US pressure, but were shot down over the Jerusalem issue. Flat out Jerusalem DOES belong to the Israeli's. ANY argument to the contrary ignores thousands of years of history. Basically, if the two groups could get rid of their current leaders, they could probably get this mess solved.

baccarat
03-20-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
I personally think giving money to either side is ridiculous, since the money just goes to killing innocents.


If the U.S. didn't help support Israel, it wouldn't exist. If Israel had no army, their neighbors would destroy it, plain and simple. I'm not a huge fan of Sharone but Israel has to do something when a sucide bomber kills dozens of people. I can't defend every comment made by every person in the World including sometimes myself. Unfortunately, groups like Hamas, who is funded greatly by Saddam, want the destruction of Israel. If I were President, I'd also support the only democracy in the region.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
LOL, now I know why I never wanted to know. It's confusing and all messed up. But it's good to know, so I'm trying harder.

Ice, I respect your decision and right to be an athesist. I'm not religious but I have a strong faith in God. God doesn't want us to be religious, he wants us to have a personal relationship with him. There is a huge difference between religion and faith. If you ever want to talk about faith or have any questions or want me to give reasons why you should have faith in the Lord, please feel free to ask Ice. I'd be more than happy to answer questions. I'm not one to push beliefs, that's why I'm opening the door Ice, I will not convey my beliefs unto you unless you ask. Peace bro.

Becoming an atheist wasn't really hard. I was born 100% Catholic but my parents aren't religious, and I was never even baptised. The only religious thing I do is celebrate Christmas, and we do that as a family for the giving part, not for the religious part.

I think belief in God has to come within, and it is the same for being religious. I believe there is a difference between religion and faith, and also a difference in being spiritual and belief in God.

I am just wondering what is your birth religion. I took a religious test a few weeks ago that Peebs posted and it said I was a Unitarian, and that sounded like a good fit, but I don't know if I will ever be associated with a religion.

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by booyeah_
If the U.S. didn't help support Israel, it wouldn't exist. If Israel had no army, their neighbors would destroy it, plain and simple. I'm not a huge fan of Sharone but Israel has to do something when a sucide bomber kills dozens of people. I can't defend every comment made by every person in the World including sometimes myself. Unfortunately, groups like Hamas, who is funded greatly by Saddam, want the destruction of Israel. If I were President, I'd also support the only democracy in the region.

I know 5 billion dollars a year is way too much, the USA has a lot of crappy schools and they could use that money. I think Israel would exist with or without aid, and I don't know if they need all of it anymore. Israel is not a poor nation at all. They have an incredible army, and I think they could keep it up if we didn't give them the money every year, espicially at this point.

baccarat
03-20-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
think Israel would exist with or without aid, and I don't know if they need all of it anymore. I think they could keep it up if we didn't give them the money every year, espicially at this point.

I disagree. I strongly believe that if we abandon Israel, you'll see another Holocaust. I'll tell you this much, Israel is more deserving of our aid than Haiti(poor country but corrupt govt., very little money actually helps the people.) or North Korea(They agreed to our aid if they would quit their nuclear programs. They didn't.)

iceblizzard69
03-20-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by booyeah_
I disagree. I strongly believe that if we abandon Israel, you'll see another Holocaust. I'll tell you this much, Israel is more deserving of our aid than Haiti(poor country but corrupt govt., very little money actually helps the people.) or North Korea(They agreed to our aid if they would quit their nuclear programs. They didn't.)

Any nation on earth in my mind is more deserving of our aid then North Korea. Israel has a corrupt government (they had a big scandal with this a few months ago), and although I don't like their leader, at least their people elect him.

I don't think there will ever be another Holocaust, because Israel still has a lot of money if we didn't give them their 5 billion. Their army is incredible, I have heard they are the best-trained on earth. They may be a small nation but they have lots of weapons and incredible soldiers. They could easily beat any group or nation that wants to do a Holocaust against them in my mind. They beat like 5 countries in 6 days, and their army is even better now.

Barbarian
03-20-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
I asked because you vehemently defend the Muslims and the Palestinians. But you just answered my question, by CONCEDING that A LOT in the Mid East HATE America. That is quite a concession from the minority that you have stated time and time again.


I agree with you that we should be tolerant as possible and should not pigeon hole all Muslims, just because of the actions of the radicals. But when we are referring to the radicals, no holds barred baby. Kill em ALL, and let Allah sort em out.

Tht sounds pretty tame compared to the demonstrations here in San Francisco.

Most of the protesters here are Christian.

1 Police officer is in the hospitol, several other people have been beaten by the protesters.

over 1000 violent protesters have been arrested.

what does that say about christianity?

exactly about the same as the other examples you posted say about the muslim religeon.

but I agree, the millitant radicals of both groups should be weeded out and dealt with. Both Christian and Muslim.

dolfan06
03-21-2003, 01:36 AM
most of the children they've interviewed here, don't care about the war or are scared because of it. i haven't seen any american children burning an iraqi flag. i don't believe matches are even allowed on a person in elementary school here!;)

btw, i just love this thread!

PhinPhan1227
03-21-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
Becoming an atheist wasn't really hard.

I think belief in God has to come within, and it is the same for being religious. I believe there is a difference between religion and faith, and also a difference in being spiritual and belief in God.

I am just wondering what is your birth religion. I took a religious test a few weeks ago that Peebs posted and it said I was a Unitarian, and that sounded like a good fit, but I don't know if I will ever be associated with a religion.


I'm confused...are you an athiest, or do you believe in some higher power? Sounds to me more like you're an agnostic.

iceblizzard69
03-21-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
I'm confused...are you an athiest, or do you believe in some higher power? Sounds to me more like you're an agnostic.

I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in a higher power.

LeftCoastPhin
03-21-2003, 12:06 PM
Ice: I wasn't born into any religion. My Dad was born Catholic but denounced them because he was beaten by nuns in school and I'm not sure about my Mom. I discovered faith by attending Lutherean Bible Schools as a kid, then later I got more into faith through non-denomination Christianity.

LeftCoastPhin
03-21-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Barbarian
Tht sounds pretty tame compared to the demonstrations here in San Francisco.

Most of the protesters here are Christian.

1 Police officer is in the hospitol, several other people have been beaten by the protesters.

over 1000 violent protesters have been arrested.

what does that say about christianity?

exactly about the same as the other examples you posted say about the muslim religeon.

but I agree, the millitant radicals of both groups should be weeded out and dealt with. Both Christian and Muslim.


Well, you had me till you mentined San Francisco. That's a whole other breed of Americans. Talk about marching to the beat of an entirely different drum.

But still, there's a difference between fighting with the police and killing people.

Barbarian
03-21-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
Well, you had me till you mentined San Francisco. That's a whole other breed of Americans. Talk about marching to the beat of an entirely different drum.

But still, there's a difference between fighting with the police and killing people.

Had that guy gotten the cops gun what do you think he would have done with it?

Also, like I said, I have allready posted a few recent cases of people claiming to be christian killing people because they felt it was their religeous obligation.

Oh, and LA and Chicago had very similar protests (allbeit not quite as large), i just used san francisco because its where I work and thats the one I saw first hand.