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View Full Version : Is anyone else concerned about our borders?



LeftCoastPhin
03-25-2003, 04:31 PM
I eluded to this in the Spoils thread and I'd like to elaborate.

Doesn't it seem a bit odd to invade a foreign country but not even sweat protecting our borders? I liken it to chasing down one of the brothers that raped your wife, but not asking your friends to keep an eye at your wife at home while she is recovering from her trauma. It just seems ludicris to me that we aren't looking into closing down our borders. Hmmmmm, what would the benefits of that be? Lets see.....

It would help keep out terrorists
It would help keep out drugs
It would help regulate immigration
It would stifle illegal aliens.

All legit problems that cost lives, and for you economic gurus, trillions of dollars over a short time.

Now, I ask why are the borders open?

Our ideals, as a free country? We could still allow people in at out and checkpoints, while the rest is locked down, what a novel idea.

I would guess money, as in drug money that the govt profits from, we all know or most of us know the war on drugs is complete BULL$HIT. Our prison union lobbies stiffer penalites so they keep jobs, etc, etc, etc, etc..and on down the line. The CIA profits from it by participating in the drug trade in exchange for catching a few here and there. Big fish/ little fish story.

Also, NAFTA goes out the window. Screw Mexico, what do they do for us? Ohhhh thats right, I'm sorry, they provide CHEAP labor to save Corporate America billions, which pass on money to politicans for campaigns. Kick back city.

Not to mention all the freaking special interests group that lobby for illegals to become legas and all that crap.

I probably left stuff out and maybe it could crumble our economy, I dont know. I dont see how though, afterall we still have our precious cheap labor over-sees. I dont have all the answers, if I did, obviously I'd be in power. But at least some reguation of the border is needed, no?

As far as logistical methods, I dont see how it can be more expensive to line our borders with Army divisons than to suffer all the money we spend on the war on drugs, anti terrorism and other stuff. Tell all those a-hole prison guards to join the Army and protect the border, instead of NON VIOLENT drug offenders.

iceblizzard69
03-25-2003, 04:59 PM
First of all, the American Government seems a lot more concerned with the Mexican border then the Canadian border. Terrorists could EASILY cross the non-protected Canadian border, which is only marked with a few sticks and there is no border patrol. The Mexican border is a lot more closely watched, but they still do a poor job.

As for Mexican labor, my Dad works with a lot of Mexicans, many of them here illegally. Not only do they work for less, but according to him, they work a lot harder then the Americans. They work to provide for their families, and they tend to work really hard. The thing about Mexicans is not only do they work for cheap, but they also work really really hard. It is a difficult situation, since a lot of hard working Americans lose out.

LeftCoastPhin
03-25-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by iceblizzard69
First of all, the American Government seems a lot more concerned with the Mexican border then the Canadian border. Terrorists could EASILY cross the non-protected Canadian border, which is only marked with a few sticks and there is no border patrol. The Mexican border is a lot more closely watched, but they still do a poor job.

As for Mexican labor, my Dad works with a lot of Mexicans, many of them here illegally. Not only do they work for less, but according to him, they work a lot harder then the Americans. They work to provide for their families, and they tend to work really hard. The thing about Mexicans is not only do they work for cheap, but they also work really really hard. It is a difficult situation, since a lot of hard working Americans lose out.

We need to lock up both borders. It's nothing against Mexicans. I'm definately in favor of them immigrating LEGALLY, and doing what they got to do to provide a better life for their familes.

When I was referring to cheap labor, I meant American corporate factories operating in Mexico, on the cheap then shipping products back to U.S to sell.

We could still have a minor NAFTA, just more reguations and checkpoints, which would dramatically slow down transports.

PhinPhan1227
03-25-2003, 05:05 PM
Question LCP....if Israel can't keep their borders locked up to terrorists, how do you expect us to do so? They use methods that our Bill of Rights would NEVER allow, but are still unsuccessful. Exactly how do you expect us to really lock up our borders?

LeftCoastPhin
03-25-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Question LCP....if Israel can't keep their borders locked up to terrorists, how do you expect us to do so? They use methods that our Bill of Rights would NEVER allow, but are still unsuccessful. Exactly how do you expect us to really lock up our borders?


Fair enough question. I dont really know the answer. No method could be 100% effective. But I do think more effort and troops is a good start.

Question for you though. It seems 90% of the reasons why the middle east terrorists hate us is because our alliance with Israel and occupation. Should we consider a more swift action with Israel, meaning going to whatever drastic means necessary to protect them i.e building a "wall" around them and stationing troops to guard them. Then, totally withdraw from the rest of the middle east. That may breed more hatred but is there a solution in our future or will the vulnrability of Israel compromise our safety forever? It may sound like it, but I'm NOT blaming Israel.

ohall
03-25-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
Fair enough question. I dont really know the answer. No method could be 100% effective. But I do think more effort and troops is a good start.

Question for you though. It seems 90% of the reasons why the middle east terrorists hate us is because our alliance with Israel and occupation. Should we consider a more swift action with Israel, meaning going to whatever drastic means necessary to protect them i.e building a "wall" around them and stationing troops to guard them. Then, totally withdraw from the rest of the middle east. That may breed more hatred but is there a solution in our future or will the vulnrability of Israel compromise our safety forever? It may sound like it, but I'm NOT blaming Israel.

You can't seal any border and remain free, if we did we would have to basically make a Berlin style wall and man that wall ever so many thosand yards. Personally I don't want to live in a country like that. At that point this would no longer be America IMO.

Oliver...

Sniper
03-25-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
I eluded to this in the Spoils thread and I'd like to elaborate.

Doesn't it seem a bit odd to invade a foreign country but not even sweat protecting our borders? I liken it to chasing down one of the brothers that raped your wife, but not asking your friends to keep an eye at your wife at home while she is recovering from her trauma. It just seems ludicris to me that we aren't looking into closing down our borders. Hmmmmm, what would the benefits of that be? Lets see.....

It would help keep out terrorists
It would help keep out drugs
It would help regulate immigration
It would stifle illegal aliens.

All legit problems that cost lives, and for you economic gurus, trillions of dollars over a short time.

Now, I ask why are the borders open?

Our ideals, as a free country? We could still allow people in at out and checkpoints, while the rest is locked down, what a novel idea.

I would guess money, as in drug money that the govt profits from, we all know or most of us know the war on drugs is complete BULL$HIT. Our prison union lobbies stiffer penalites so they keep jobs, etc, etc, etc, etc..and on down the line. The CIA profits from it by participating in the drug trade in exchange for catching a few here and there. Big fish/ little fish story.

Also, NAFTA goes out the window. Screw Mexico, what do they do for us? Ohhhh thats right, I'm sorry, they provide CHEAP labor to save Corporate America billions, which pass on money to politicans for campaigns. Kick back city.

Not to mention all the freaking special interests group that lobby for illegals to become legas and all that crap.

I probably left stuff out and maybe it could crumble our economy, I dont know. I dont see how though, afterall we still have our precious cheap labor over-sees. I dont have all the answers, if I did, obviously I'd be in power. But at least some reguation of the border is needed, no?

As far as logistical methods, I dont see how it can be more expensive to line our borders with Army divisons than to suffer all the money we spend on the war on drugs, anti terrorism and other stuff. Tell all those a-hole prison guards to join the Army and protect the border, instead of NON VIOLENT drug offenders.

I agree 100% with your sentiments.

PhinPhan1227
03-25-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
Fair enough question. I dont really know the answer. No method could be 100% effective. But I do think more effort and troops is a good start.

Question for you though. It seems 90% of the reasons why the middle east terrorists hate us is because our alliance with Israel and occupation. Should we consider a more swift action with Israel, meaning going to whatever drastic means necessary to protect them i.e building a "wall" around them and stationing troops to guard them. Then, totally withdraw from the rest of the middle east. That may breed more hatred but is there a solution in our future or will the vulnrability of Israel compromise our safety forever? It may sound like it, but I'm NOT blaming Israel.


That's the stated position, but it's a crock. Terrorists in Saudi Arabia couldn't care less about the Palestinians. They hate America because, for the most part, they're taught to hate America. Bring decent education to the Middle East, and you'll cut the number of potential terrorsits to a tiny fraction of their present numbers. The reason the people who are teaching them hate us is because we represent a level of power and dominance that they can only look back on. They know that they once influenced world politics, and hate us because we are everything they once were. As for Israel, we DID pressure them to concede to Palestinian demands, and they did so. The only thing they wouldn't do was divide Jerusalem, and I don't blame them one bit. If ANY people in the world have a claim to ANY city, it's the Jews and Jerusalem. Either way, we CAN'T seal ourselves, or anyone else behind a wall, it just doesn't work. We tried it in the 30's, and it's what kept us from dealing with Hilter when he was still weak. As soon as you isolate yourself, you're allowing everyone else to determine YOUR fate. That's the main point with Saddam as well. We could have just left him alone, and allowed HIM to choose the time and place for the conflict. Basic military tactics, allow the other guy to choose the time and place of battle and you're already more than half way to losing.

t2thejz
03-25-2003, 05:44 PM
Troops do not belong at the border it is not their job

LeftCoastPhin
03-25-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
That's the stated position, but it's a crock. Terrorists in Saudi Arabia couldn't care less about the Palestinians. They hate America because, for the most part, they're taught to hate America. Bring decent education to the Middle East, and you'll cut the number of potential terrorsits to a tiny fraction of their present numbers. The reason the people who are teaching them hate us is because we represent a level of power and dominance that they can only look back on. They know that they once influenced world politics, and hate us because we are everything they once were. As for Israel, we DID pressure them to concede to Palestinian demands, and they did so. The only thing they wouldn't do was divide Jerusalem, and I don't blame them one bit. If ANY people in the world have a claim to ANY city, it's the Jews and Jerusalem. Either way, we CAN'T seal ourselves, or anyone else behind a wall, it just doesn't work. We tried it in the 30's, and it's what kept us from dealing with Hilter when he was still weak. As soon as you isolate yourself, you're allowing everyone else to determine YOUR fate. That's the main point with Saddam as well. We could have just left him alone, and allowed HIM to choose the time and place for the conflict. Basic military tactics, allow the other guy to choose the time and place of battle and you're already more than half way to losing.


Yea, i'm not to crazy on the wall idea either. It's an act of desperation, but these are desparate times. That's why I asked. Good points, I agree.

Good explanation as to why they hate us as well. I can buy into it, but I know our foreign policy has a lot to do with it too. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with it but it factors. It's definately not a simple matter.

Now, I am in no way a doomsday type of guy but in the back of my mind I could see the Arab nations rising up and coming together to circle us in Iraq and start WWIII. I dont know where that came from, maybe because I was thinking about how our policy ticked them off in the first place. I'm not saying we should give in by any means.

Hell, I dont know what I'm saying now, ha. I just know this is getting to be a bigger situation than a lot of people including myself may have realized.

PhinPhan1227
03-25-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by t2thejz
Troops do not belong at the border it is not their job

Actually, the Consitution prohibits Federal troops to be used in that fashion.

PhinPhan1227
03-25-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
Yea, i'm not to crazy on the wall idea either. It's an act of desperation, but these are desparate times. That's why I asked. Good points, I agree.

Good explanation as to why they hate us as well. I can buy into it, but I know our foreign policy has a lot to do with it too. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with it but it factors. It's definately not a simple matter.

Now, I am in no way a doomsday type of guy but in the back of my mind I could see the Arab nations rising up and coming together to circle us in Iraq and start WWIII. I dont know where that came from, maybe because I was thinking about how our policy ticked them off in the first place. I'm not saying we should give in by any means.

Hell, I dont know what I'm saying now, ha. I just know this is getting to be a bigger situation than a lot of people including myself may have realized.

FULLY agree that it's not a simple situation, and if I ever gave that impression, my apologies. And I also agree that there's a chance of further polarising the muslim nations against us. But the flip side of that is the fact that they were already aligning further and further away from us every year, so SOMETHING had to be done. I don't know if this will work, and it may certainly make things worse in the short term. But as Comrade Sniper would probably agree(at least from an ideological standpoint), the only way to TRULY change a peoples mindset is through education and example. Right now, they have NO examples of a true Arab democracy to work with(Turkey may be muslim, but they don't see each other as the same people). Maybe this will turn out to be a horrible mistake, but I still haven't heard what the alternative idea was? So far, it looked to me like our solution before this was to sit on our hands and "hope for the best"....

LeftCoastPhin
03-25-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
FULLY agree that it's not a simple situation, and if I ever gave that impression, my apologies. And I also agree that there's a chance of further polarising the muslim nations against us. But the flip side of that is the fact that they were already aligning further and further away from us every year, so SOMETHING had to be done. I don't know if this will work, and it may certainly make things worse in the short term. But as Comrade Sniper would probably agree(at least from an ideological standpoint), the only way to TRULY change a peoples mindset is through education and example. Right now, they have NO examples of a true Arab democracy to work with(Turkey may be muslim, but they don't see each other as the same people). Maybe this will turn out to be a horrible mistake, but I still haven't heard what the alternative idea was? So far, it looked to me like our solution before this was to sit on our hands and "hope for the best"....


Did you not see the Dateline special on Quatar? Now there is an example of democracy, positive change,and Western influence. But yes, I agree whole-heartedly that the best way is via education and example. I just think we are setting ourselves up for dissappointment if we think Iraq is really going to comply and change.

Either way, it doesn't change that I AGREE with this war. I dont want that to be lost in the shuffle.

PhinPhan1227
03-25-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
Did you not see the Dateline special on Quatar? Now there is an example of democracy, positive change,and Western influence. But yes, I agree whole-heartedly that the best way is via education and example. I just think we are setting ourselves up for dissappointment if we think Iraq is really going to comply and change.

Either way, it doesn't change that I AGREE with this war. I dont want that to be lost in the shuffle.


Qatar is great, but it's hardly an infuential nation in the Arab world, and as such is more ignored than seen as an example. What would make Iraq different is that it has the potential to become a real world power. Let the Arabs MAKE something to be proud of, and perhaps they'll have less reason to hate US.

ohall
03-25-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Qatar is great, but it's hardly an infuential nation in the Arab world, and as such is more ignored than seen as an example. What would make Iraq different is that it has the potential to become a real world power. Let the Arabs MAKE something to be proud of, and perhaps they'll have less reason to hate US.

Why is Qatar pronounced cutter? Damn that makes no sense to me! :D

Oliver...

jetssuckSr
03-25-2003, 08:08 PM
According to an article I read a few weeks ago in the Palm Beach Post, a poll was taken and the majority of those polled actually want our borders closed and for many of the reasons given by LC.

I agree, it's time to change the message at the base of the Staue of Liberty to 'NO VACANCY'.

It's no longer a 'melting pot' when the immigrants refuse to melt.
















JS

baccarat
03-25-2003, 08:43 PM
I'm in favor for protecting our borders as best as humanly possible. I think the biggest reason why most politicans refuse to stop the problems on the border(McCain a rare exception), is because they want the minority vote. Hispanics/Latinos are the #1 minority in the country and if one political faciton/party were to support sending troops on the border, then that party would lose a lot of support. Sadly, some people play the politics game in the case of national security.:nono:

P.S. Isn't ironic that Mexico doesn't want us to protect our country/border but they send their military on their borders w/ other countries?

LeftCoastPhin
03-25-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by booyeah_
I'm in favor for protecting our borders as best as humanly possible. I think the biggest reason why most politicans refuse to stop the problems on the border(McCain a rare exception), is because they want the minority vote. Hispanics/Latinos are the #1 minority in the country and if one political faciton/party were to support sending troops on the border, then that party would lose a lot of support. Sadly, some people play the politics game in the case of national security.:nono:

P.S. Isn't ironic that Mexico doesn't want us to protect our country/border but they send their military on their borders w/ other countries?




Blammo! That is the sound of the nail being hit on the head. I really didnt' want to go there beause I didn't think I would word it properly. You did, and you are correct sir!

jetssuckSr
03-25-2003, 10:36 PM
I know it's not a popular subject here in SoFl and I hate to go there myself but even without the new security risks we face the fact is that our resources will not hold up forever and IMO we are at a point of saturation.

I've always enjoyed reading about history, it's been a hobby/interest of mine for many years. Something tells me our fore-fathers never envisioned having to 'press 1 for english':(














JS

PhinPhan1227
03-26-2003, 11:00 AM
I think I can safely call myself truly moderate on this issue. I STRONGLY feel that English is THE language of this country, and that all persons who want to live here should have to learn it. By the same token, this country has ALWAYS had open borders, and has ALWAYS had problems because of it. Just go back to the major influxes of Irish, and Italian immigrants, and you can see that there were public outcries against them. Likewise the influxes of Asian immigrants. It's something we've always dealt with, but it's always made us a stronger country in the long run. I do agree that changes need to be made, but I think those changes need to take us back to the policies we had 30-40 years ago(NOT the eugenics part), when assimilation was stressed.

baccarat
03-26-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
I think I can safely call myself truly moderate on this issue. I STRONGLY feel that English is THE language of this country, and that all persons who want to live here should have to learn it. By the same token, this country has ALWAYS had open borders, and has ALWAYS had problems because of it. Just go back to the major influxes of Irish, and Italian immigrants, and you can see that there were public outcries against them. Likewise the influxes of Asian immigrants. It's something we've always dealt with, but it's always made us a stronger country in the long run. I do agree that changes need to be made, but I think those changes need to take us back to the policies we had 30-40 years ago(NOT the eugenics part), when assimilation was stressed.


I'd just like to say that I am definitely Not anti-immigration or a nativist. I'm just against people who come here illegally.

PhinPhan1227
03-26-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by booyeah_
I'd just like to say that I am definitely Not anti-immigration or a nativist. I'm just against people who come here illegally.

Fully agreed...but it's like gun control. Lets make the laws that are CURRENTLY on the books work before we write any new ones.

LeftCoastPhin
03-26-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Fully agreed...but it's like gun control. Lets make the laws that are CURRENTLY on the books work before we write any new ones.


LMAO! Oh my! I do not think I've ever read a more true suggestion in all of my 27 years.

That gets lost in the shuffle ALL the time, especially by ME.

Excellent point, how are we suppose to make new laws when we cant even enforce the ones we have? :rolleyes:

It's depressing. :cry: Someone hold me. Anyone? :goof:

Barbarian
03-26-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
LMAO! Oh my! I do not think I've ever read a more true suggestion in all of my 27 years.

That gets lost in the shuffle ALL the time, especially by ME.

Excellent point, how are we suppose to make new laws when we cant even enforce the ones we have? :rolleyes:

It's depressing. :cry: Someone hold me. Anyone? :goof:

*Gives LCP a big hug*

Awwwww, there there.... it's okay, it's okay....

LMAO... okay, seriously.

Yeah, I gotta agree, while I am all for legal immigration, I am unequivocally against illegal immigration.

Why?

Because it's illegal!

And like has been mentioned before in this thread, were all here in the great melting pot, so melt allready for cripes sake!

IMHO the only other language that all of our regular paperwork should be required to be in in Braile. (I dunno if Braile really counts as another written language.. but you get my point)

:monkey: Lawbreakers

PhinPhan1227
03-26-2003, 06:08 PM
Agreed, but again, lets try to make the existing laws work. If it's ALREADY illegal, how about doing something about it?

LeftCoastPhin
03-26-2003, 06:11 PM
I've been hugged by a Barbarian! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. All safe and secure.


I'M NOT GAY, IM HETROSEXUAL! LMAO

WharfRat
03-26-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Agreed, but again, lets try to make the existing laws work. If it's ALREADY illegal, how about doing something about it?

:drinkers: Here! here!

dolfan06
03-27-2003, 02:26 AM
why worry about it, they let em all in already, time to move!

Barbarian
03-27-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
I've been hugged by a Barbarian! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. All safe and secure.


I'M NOT GAY, IM HETROSEXUAL! LMAO

Hey man.. that was a heterosexual, brotherly, fellow Dolphin Fan kinda hug! :tongue:

WharfRat
03-27-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by LeftCoastPhin
I've been hugged by a Barbarian! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. All safe and secure.


I'M NOT GAY, IM HETROSEXUAL! LMAO

Do you guys want to be alone for a while?
:lol: :tongue: :D

PhinPhan1227
03-27-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
Do you guys want to be alone for a while?
:lol: :tongue: :D


Careful man!! Remember, "don't ask, don't tell!!!":lol: :eek: :lol:

WharfRat
03-27-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Careful man!! Remember, "don't ask, don't tell!!!":lol: :eek: :lol: :eek: