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WharfRat
03-29-2003, 11:16 PM
Interesting Opinion/Editorial Read ...
Small wonder Russia opposes the war....


Supplying arms to Iraq is something else. Not only is this a clear violation of U.N. sanctions, but Russia has weapons that pose a lethal threat to U.S. and British soldiers. Those are exactly the kinds of weapons that the Bush administration has accused Russia — and now Syria — of supplying Iraq. Whether President Vladimir Putin chooses to acknowledge the sales or not, he would be well advised to make sure they are stopped right now.


Russia has substantial interests in Iraq, including a huge unpaid debt for past arms sales and lost contracts in Iraqi oil fields. If Moscow had been promised some way to recoup, Mr. Putin may not have thrown in his lot so ardently with France and Germany.


None of that, however, justifies providing Iraqis with means of killing Americans. This goes beyond political calculation, and beyond pique. Mr. Putin must understand that if Russian arms are reaching Iraq by any route, and are putting American men and women in harm's way, it is simply not enough to declare that he is not responsible, or to pretend it is not happening.

NY Times OP/ED article (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/29/opinion/29SAT1.html?ex=1049605200?en=0797960d11c70a23&ei=5058&partner=IWON)

Sniper
03-29-2003, 11:56 PM
I think it is very likely that Syria or Russia is supplying arms to Iraq. This is not good.

It could very well be Russian/Iraqi economic ties responsible for this. Another possibility is maybe Putin is showing some retribution towards GW? The U.S./Russian relationship seemed to be on the rocks after we pulled out of the ABM treaty.

iceblizzard69
03-30-2003, 12:16 AM
I thought our relationship with Russia was improving. Didn't we sign a deal with them to slow down the production of nuclear weapons?

WharfRat
03-30-2003, 12:19 AM
Yes... as kind of a "consolation prize" because Bush pulled out of an old treaty (1972) that limited testing...so we could develop the missile defense system...

dolfan06
03-31-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by WharfRat
Yes... as kind of a "consolation prize" because Bush pulled out of an old treaty (1972) that limited testing...so we could develop the missile defense system... i just heard on the news, back in 91, during desert storm, president bush senior, called for an overthrow of saddam. the rebels captured 14 out of 18 provinces when saddam started his bull****. the rebels asked america for help, and bush refused. what a dork!:rolleyes:

dolphan39
03-31-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
i just heard on the news, back in 91, during desert storm, president bush senior, called for an overthrow of saddam. the rebels captured 14 out of 18 provinces when saddam started his bull****. the rebels asked america for help, and bush refused. what a dork!:rolleyes: you just heard that :eek: anyway, supposedly between 50K and 200K people were killed by Sadaam to squash the uprising. That is the #1 reason the Iraqis - particularly the Shiites - do not trust us, yet.

dolfan06
04-01-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by dolphan39
you just heard that :eek: anyway, supposedly between 50K and 200K people were killed by Sadaam to squash the uprising. That is the #1 reason the Iraqis - particularly the Shiites - do not trust us, yet. actually, i can believe that they don't trust us, what i can't believe, is knowing of the atrocities that went on in iraq, these bozo's are out there putting down the war. i'm not in favor of war, but i think saddam is worse than stalin and needed to be stopped!;)

themole
04-01-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
I think it is very likely that Syria or Russia is supplying arms to Iraq. This is not good.

It could very well be Russian/Iraqi economic ties responsible for this. Another possibility is maybe Putin is showing some retribution towards GW? The U.S./Russian relationship seemed to be on the rocks after we pulled out of the ABM treaty.

That's my opinion too.

Cool AV. Sniper!

Sniper
04-01-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by themole
That's my opinion too.

Cool AV. Sniper!

Thanks Mole... M83 gave me the idea for it.

themole
04-01-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
Thanks Mole... M83 gave me the idea for it.

Watch that Guy!!:evil: :lol: He's on the prowl.:jk: 83.

WharfRat
04-01-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
Thanks Mole... M83 gave me the idea for it.
Awesome avatar Sniper!!

Sniper
04-01-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
Awesome avatar Sniper!!

Thanks Wharf... I like it too.

So where do you guys think this Russia/Syria connection is going to lead? The implications of this are kind of fuzzy. All I know is Syria and Russia are pretty good allies.

WharfRat
04-01-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
Thanks Wharf... I like it too.

So where do you guys think this Russia/Syria connection is going to lead? The implications of this are kind of fuzzy. All I know is Syria and Russia are pretty good allies.

Syria and Russia are good enough allies to make is scary...
whether the Russian government really did it, or just allowed it to happen... it's obvious that Syria was used as a conduit.
I honestly think we'll find a lot of stuff that has "Made in Russia" "Made in France" "Made in China" and "Made in Germany" that Iraq wasn't supposed to have...

Sniper
04-01-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
Syria and Russia are good enough allies to make is scary...
whether the Russian government really did it, or just allowed it to happen... it's obvious that Syria was used as a conduit.
I honestly think we'll find a lot of stuff that has "Made in Russia" "Made in France" "Made in China" and "Made in Germany" that Iraq wasn't supposed to have...

Yeppers.. I agree with Syria being a conduit. I don't see us taking action against Syria or Russia other than maybe an embargo of some sort.

I also agree that many of the countries you mentioned will be guilty of violating the UN Sanctions. I'm not sure if I like this can of worms.

WharfRat
04-01-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
Yeppers.. I agree with Syria being a conduit. I don't see us taking action against Syria or Russia other than maybe an embargo of some sort.

I also agree that many of the countries you mentioned will be guilty of violating the UN Sanctions. I'm not sure if I like this can of worms.

It's a can of worms .. you're not supposed to like it....

somebody had to open it though.... the worms would get out eventually anyway...then God knows what they'd do to the garden!

I know... I extended that metaphor way too far... but it just seemed to fit... :D

Sniper
04-01-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
It's a can of worms .. you're not supposed to like it....

somebody had to open it though.... the worms would get out eventually anyway...then God knows what they'd do to the garden!

I know... I extended that metaphor way too far... but it just seemed to fit... :D

Normally I like cans of worms... I enjoy fishing Wharf and every good fisherman knows that live bait works best.

WharfRat
04-01-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
Normally I like cans of worms... I enjoy fishing Wharf and every good fisherman knows that live bait works best.

:lol: I stand corrected ... good thing we have that big can opener then eh? 'Cause this one's gonna be a doosey!!!

Sniper
04-01-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
:lol: I stand corrected ... good thing we have that big can opener then eh? 'Cause this one's gonna be a doosey!!!

Doosey is a slight understatement. :lol:

Speaking of fishing... Do you guys fish and hunt? I enjoy both myself.

WharfRat
04-01-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
Doosey is a slight understatement. :lol:

:lol: but think of the "fish stories" we can tell our grandkids!!

as for huntin/fishin...
I used to hunt when I was younger... haven't for years though... fishing only appeals to me if I'm out on a boat... but then...maybe it's the beer that really appeals to me, and the fishin pole just happens to be there... :goof:

Sniper
04-01-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
:lol: but think of the "fish stories" we can tell our grandkids!!

as for huntin/fishin...
I used to hunt when I was younger... haven't for years though... fishing only appeals to me if I'm out on a boat... but then...maybe it's the beer that really appeals to me, and the fishin pole just happens to be there... :goof:

The ideal beer cooler would double as a tackle box. ;)

WharfRat
04-01-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
The ideal beer cooler would double as a tackle box. ;)

:confused: I thought that's what "tackle box" meant ... a beer cooler for when you're fishin'... :goof:

dolfan06
04-02-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by WharfRat
:confused: I thought that's what "tackle box" meant ... a beer cooler for when you're fishin'... :goof: thats when i really miss havin a beer, is when i'm fishin!:rolleyes:

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Sniper
Doosey is a slight understatement. :lol:

Speaking of fishing... Do you guys fish and hunt? I enjoy both myself.



Snippy, I tip my hat to you...a pacifist/hunter is a thought provoking combination.

Sniper
04-02-2003, 11:14 AM
I'm sure a pair of socks is a thought provoking combination for you as well :goof:

Humans are humans and animals are animals. I make a distinction between the two.

Sniper
04-02-2003, 11:30 AM
This unusual development is loosely related to this thread's topic.

Russia sending its Navy to the Arabian Sea

http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-2apr2003-109.htm

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Sniper
I'm sure a pair of socks is a thought provoking combination for you as well :goof:

Humans are humans and animals are animals. I make a distinction between the two.

Depends...if the socks happen to be all an attractive woman is wearing, then yep, they ARE quite thought provoking:evil: As for hunting, I'm not a big fan of it myself since I've got all the food I need at the grocery store(for those with a real taste for venison, I can understand deer hunting, as well as for population control). I have no understanding of how people recieve any joy by shooting a living animal however. The communing with nature...tracking...and test of skill I can FULLY understand, and enjoy myself, but that's all achievable with a camera as well, so really...some people just like killing things. I just find it thought provoking that someone would be against the killing of other humans, even in self defense, but actually enjoy the killing of animals, who feel pain just as keenly as any person does. I have no problem with killing an animal to feed yourself, I just think it's a little twisted to kill an animal, just for the fun of killing an animal.

Sniper
04-02-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Depends...if the socks happen to be all an attractive woman is wearing, then yep, they ARE quite thought provoking:evil: As for hunting, I'm not a big fan of it myself since I've got all the food I need at the grocery store(for those with a real taste for venison, I can understand deer hunting, as well as for population control). I have no understanding of how people recieve any joy by shooting a living animal however. The communing with nature...tracking...and test of skill I can FULLY understand, and enjoy myself, but that's all achievable with a camera as well, so really...some people just like killing things. I just find it thought provoking that someone would be against the killing of other humans, even in self defense, but actually enjoy the killing of animals, who feel pain just as keenly as any person does. I have no problem with killing an animal to feed yourself, I just think it's a little twisted to kill an animal, just for the fun of killing an animal.

:lol: Spare me the sensitivity...

It sounds to me like YOU are having an Oprah moment...

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 12:39 PM
Nothing "sensitive" about it, it's just twisted to kill for the sake of killing, animal or person, doesn't matter. As I said, the "rest" of the hunting experience, I enjoy thouroughly,I just don't understand how killing an animal gives you a jolly. Maybe it's the ability to shoot at something that can't shoot back...who knows?

WharfRat
04-02-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
This unusual development is loosely related to this thread's topic.

Russia sending its Navy to the Arabian Sea

http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-2apr2003-109.htm

Probably so they don't have to travel so far to pick up thier equipment after the Iraqi's are finished with it.... :rolleyes:

ohall
04-02-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Sniper
I think it is very likely that Syria or Russia is supplying arms to Iraq. This is not good.

It could very well be Russian/Iraqi economic ties responsible for this. Another possibility is maybe Putin is showing some retribution towards GW? The U.S./Russian relationship seemed to be on the rocks after we pulled out of the ABM treaty.

Nice AVATAR Sniper, real nice.

Oliver...

Sniper
04-02-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Oliver
Nice AVATAR Sniper, real nice.

Oliver...

Thank you Oliver. M83 found it and told me about it. It's the logo for Sniper headlamp aimers.

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
Probably so they don't have to travel so far to pick up thier equipment after the Iraqi's are finished with it.... :rolleyes:


Considering their economic problems, and the state of their military....they've probably insured their warships with Loyds of London, and are hoping they all get hit with mines.:rolleyes:

Sniper
04-02-2003, 03:04 PM
Russian made rockets might be knocking out our Abrams tanks.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L01575657.htm

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 03:17 PM
Looks like an upgrade over the TOW.Looks a lot lighter, so they can hump them into position on the flanks and rear of our armor. I can guarrantee though that they don't get off more than a single shot per missile though. Just like the TOW, you have to sit around until the missile hits it's target, all the while there's a giant cloud of smoke pointing out EXACTLY where you're sitting. Also, if they're hitting the Abrams in the rear, they're probably killing the tank, but only minor injuries to the crew. Sucks to lose the Abrams, but still only a minor loss so long as the crew survives.

Sniper
04-02-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Looks like an upgrade over the TOW.Looks a lot lighter, so they can hump them into position on the flanks and rear of our armor. I can guarrantee though that they don't get off more than a single shot per missile though. Just like the TOW, you have to sit around until the missile hits it's target, all the while there's a giant cloud of smoke pointing out EXACTLY where you're sitting. Also, if they're hitting the Abrams in the rear, they're probably killing the tank, but only minor injuries to the crew. Sucks to lose the Abrams, but still only a minor loss so long as the crew survives.

Considering the tendency for suicide among Saddam's followers, I don't think the tell-tale cloud of smoke concerns them.

Hopefully, you are right that the damage is to the tank and not to the crew.

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 03:29 PM
Agreed that they probably know they're going to die anyway. The only good thing about that is that it makes it more likely that the guys using the weapons aren't regular army, but are actually irregulars. As such, they probably haven't recieved much training, as these weapons are VERY expensive, and I doubt that the gunners have even fired a practice round. These weapons require a lot of practice before you can achieve "one shot one kill" proficiency, and as such, they've probably gotten lucky up to this point. Again, the sides/rear of the tank provide opportunities to kill the vehicle, but the Abrams is a very survivable tank, and most of the crews probably came out in one piece. The possible exception being the drivers, who are pretty much screwed.

WharfRat
04-02-2003, 03:30 PM
Indeed PhinPhan.. very similar to the TOW... in fact fires a rocket almost identical to a HEAT round, which was designed to pierce spaced armor. Whoever sold them to the Iraqi's should be held accountable....
BTW... that particular weapon is of a type forbidden by the UN resolutions, is it not? I thought Iraq didn't have any of that stuff?

PhinPhan1227
04-02-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by WharfRat
Indeed PhinPhan.. very similar to the TOW... in fact fires a rocket almost identical to a HEAT round, which was designed to pierce spaced armor. Whoever sold them to the Iraqi's should be held accountable....
BTW... that particular weapon is of a type forbidden by the UN resolutions, is it not? I thought Iraq didn't have any of that stuff?


They don't. It's actually Israeli soldiers who are so militant they're just looking to kill anyone!!...:rolleyes:

Sniper
04-02-2003, 06:55 PM
Syria's and the United States' rhetoric begins to heat up...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&e=16&u=/nm/20030402/wl_nm/iraq_usa_syria_dc_1

PhinPhan1227
04-03-2003, 10:12 AM
"Assad said the administration of President Bush (news - web sites) was "not at all interested" in pushing forward the Arab-Israeli peace process, nor was Israel. "Israel is not ready and the United States does not have the vision and interest in the peace process, therefore we do not see hope in peace soon," he said. "

Of course, the Arab concept of "peace" where Israel is concerned is how big of a "piece" of the ocean would it take to swallow up the entire nation of Israel. They showed their true colors when they refused the peace settlement Israel offered which gave them back ALL the contested land, because it didn't also give them a piece of Jerusalem. The Palestinian/Syrian leadership doesn't want peace, because they retain power by feeding off the hatred of Israel.

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
They don't. It's actually Israeli soldiers who are so militant they're just looking to kill anyone!!...:rolleyes: of course they're militant. a rat will run like hell, until you back him into a corner, then he'll fight!;)

PhinPhan1227
04-04-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by dolfan06
of course they're militant. a rat will run like hell, until you back him into a corner, then he'll fight!;)


Um...just for clarity, are you actually calling the Israeli soldiers rats?

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Um...just for clarity, are you actually calling the Israeli soldiers rats? heck no! it was the smallest animal i could think of, that will fight like a son-of-gun! after all they have been through, i admire the people. besides, my grandmothers, sisters husband was a jew and smart as a whip! guy made a killing in the stock market!;)

PhinPhan1227
04-04-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
heck no! it was the smallest animal i could think of, that will fight like a son-of-gun! after all they have been through, i admire the people. besides, my grandmothers, sisters husband was a jew and smart as a whip! guy made a killing in the stock market!;)


Lol...good to know. It seemed strange, and I didn't want to jump to conclusions.

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
Lol...good to know. It seemed strange, and I didn't want to jump to conclusions. yeah, i think thats the last group of people you want to dump on! and i'll leave it at that before i get called a racist!:rolleyes:

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 02:13 PM
AGAIN...........................!

Marino1983
04-04-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
AGAIN...........................!


:lol: :lol: Marino1983

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Marino1983
:lol: :lol: Marino1983 don't think i have to name, names!:rolleyes:

themole
04-04-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
yeah, i think thats the last group of people you want to dump on! and i'll leave it at that before i get called a racist!:rolleyes:

Where angels fear to tread....there you may find themole & 06, nary a one a racist and nary a one P.C..

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by themole
Where angels fear to tread....there you may find themole & 06, nary a one a racist and nary a one P.C.. hey mole, hows it goin?

i'm surprised somebody hasn't whined about your flag yet! i think it was 3W that had to change his!

themole
04-04-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
hey mole, hows it goin?

i'm surprised somebody hasn't whined about your flag yet! i think it was 3W that had to change his!

Hey Bud! I wasn't aware of 3W having to change. What was his? I don't remember. Mine is an officail U.S. flag...I certainly hope AJ doesn't allow that kind of bulling to take place.

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by themole
Hey Bud! I wasn't aware of 3W having to change. What was his? I don't remember. Mine is an officail U.S. flag...I certainly hope AJ doesn't allow that kind of bulling to take place. i think it was a picture of ricky wearing a dress and wanny standing behind him, you get the picture.

yours isn't that bad, but we do have some....................!

themole
04-04-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
i think it was a picture of ricky wearing a dress and wanny standing behind him, you get the picture.

yours isn't that bad, but we do have some....................!

Oh yea...I remember his now. I didn't care for it cause I'm a Dolfan, but I certainly wouldn't go crying to mommy about it. I thought we were big boys here. I really wasn't offended by the names they tried to pin on me. As far as I'm concerned we went quail hunting and flushed a few.:evil: It was fun!:lol:

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by themole
Oh yea...I remember his now. I didn't care for it cause I'm a Dolfan, but I certainly wouldn't go crying to mommy about it. I thought we were big boys here. I really wasn't offended by the names they tried to pin on me. As far as I'm concerned we went quail hunting and flushed a few.:evil: It was fun!:lol: yea, i kow the 2 i'm not posting to again! they can read anything into everything!:rolleyes:

themole
04-04-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
yea, i kow the 2 i'm not posting to again! they can read anything into everything!:rolleyes:

I had 3 maybe 4!:biggrin:

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by themole
I had 3 maybe 4!:biggrin: i know, there were more, but people do have a right to their own opinion, but some think that opinion is the only right one! (oh yeah, there are 4):rolleyes:

themole
04-04-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by dolfan06
i know, there were more, but people do have a right to their own opinion, but some think that opinion is the only right one! (oh yeah, there are 4):rolleyes:

You know what they say about Opinions & A$$holes...."everybody has them and they both stink":lol:

dolfan06
04-04-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by themole
You know what they say about Opinions & A$$holes...."everybody has them and they both stink":lol: i heard "opinions are like @$$holes, everybody has one, in this case, some have 2!;)