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MikeO
08-05-2006, 08:54 PM
How do you NOT give the NL MVP award to Soriano? He and Pujlous have the same numbers pretty much but Soriano has 27 SB's and will finish 30-30 or 40-40. Last place team and all, but damn how do you not give it to him if he ends up 40-40??

This might be the bizzario world year where a DH and a guy on a last place team take home the MVP's.

I still think a Jeter hitting over .350 with 30 steals and 100 runs and 100 RBI's and a gold glove year, on a 1st place team takes it home in the AL. And if St.Louis passes the Mets for BEST RECORD in NL, Pujlos will take it. But damn its gonna be close.

Perfect23
08-05-2006, 09:13 PM
Soriano it should be

Boik14
08-05-2006, 09:20 PM
Um how about NL rbi leader, entering today, carlos beltran? Or d wright? Yeah i may be a mets homer but their stats are every bit as good as soriano's plus they have more rbi and better batting averages. If its not Beltran or wright its pujols without a doubt.

Alex44
08-05-2006, 09:33 PM
You should never give the MVP to a guy on a last place team IMO

All it does is show that all that matters is individual numbers nowdays and not the team anymore

ChambersWI
08-05-2006, 10:42 PM
You should never give the MVP to a guy on a last place team IMO

All it does is show that all that matters is individual numbers nowdays and not the team anymore

the only time a player on a non-playoff team should win the MVP award is if he was heads and shoulders above everybody else individually (see A-Rod in 2003). Which is why I feel Barry Bonds should not have won that last MVP award (when Beltre,Pujols,Rolen,and Edmonds all had better seasons and were on playoff teams).

Right now IMO the NL MVP is Beltran

Ray Finkle
08-05-2006, 11:10 PM
How do you NOT give the NL MVP award to Soriano? He and Pujlous have the same numbers pretty much but Soriano has 27 SB's and will finish 30-30 or 40-40. Last place team and all, but damn how do you not give it to him if he ends up 40-40??

This might be the bizzario world year where a DH and a guy on a last place team take home the MVP's.

I still think a Jeter hitting over .350 with 30 steals and 100 runs and 100 RBI's and a gold glove year, on a 1st place team takes it home in the AL. And if St.Louis passes the Mets for BEST RECORD in NL, Pujlos will take it. But damn its gonna be close.

Soriano has a case but then again the question remains what good is he if his team doesn't make the playoffs? Then again ARod got it when his team were 20 games out or so. Pujols will probably win the award because when the year is over you know what you'll get. Beltran will probably come in 2nd if I'd have to guess but he'll probably come the closest to winning. Having Wright split votes will hurt him.

As far as Jeter he has an arguement but a lot could happen. He is 33 RBIs away from 100 but his HR total won't impress the voters enough because after all the voters love seeing those HR and RBI totals. And Jeter shouldn't be the gold glove winner. He'll probably win the award because it's all about the big names and the award is pretty much a joke anyway but Alex Gonzalez is a lot better defensively all around than Jeter.

MikeO
08-06-2006, 01:03 AM
You should never give the MVP to a guy on a last place team IMO

All it does is show that all that matters is individual numbers nowdays and not the team anymore

but its not his fault the team is in last place. Do you punish a guy for that? And the MVP is a total indivual stat award to begin with.

Perfect23
08-06-2006, 01:09 AM
You should never give the MVP to a guy on a last place team IMO

All it does is show that all that matters is individual numbers nowdays and not the team anymore

No thats just saying that the MVP should go to the bestplayer on the best team thats what thats saying.

MikeO
08-06-2006, 01:09 AM
Um how about NL rbi leader, entering today, carlos beltran? Or d wright? Yeah i may be a mets homer but their stats are every bit as good as soriano's plus they have more rbi and better batting averages. If its not Beltran or wright its pujols without a doubt.

Wright is 10 home runs off the pace of Soriano, Beltran, and Pujlos.

Beltran's AVG is only .280 while Soriano and Pujlos are at or near .300.

Beltran is a clear 3rd in the running behind Soriano and Pujlos.

Roman529
08-06-2006, 01:50 AM
1. Albert Pujols
2. David Wright
3. Ryan Howard

AL MVP .....Big Pappi in a landslide.

Alex44
08-06-2006, 01:56 AM
No thats just saying that the MVP should go to the bestplayer on the best team thats what thats saying.

You know what MVP stands for correct? Most Valuable Player

In order to be that you need to help your team win, not just put up individual numbers, whether that comes on the field or in the clubhouse it doesnt matter, you need the numbers, the team, and the leadership

My vote goes to Pujols, no-one else fills the description in the NL

Alex44
08-06-2006, 01:56 AM
Yeah exactly its M.V.P. Most valuable player Not M.V.T. most valuable team

What exactly has Soriano been valuable to this year? Losing?

Perfect23
08-06-2006, 01:57 AM
You know what MVP stands for correct? Most Valuable Player

In order to be that you need to help your team win, not just put up individual numbers, whether that comes on the field or in the clubhouse it doesnt matter, you need the numbers, the team, and the leadership

My vote goes to Pujols, no-one else fills the description in the NL

Yeah exactly its M.V.P. Most valuable player Not M.V.T. most valuable team

Perfect23
08-06-2006, 02:02 AM
What exactly has Soriano been valuable to this year? Losing?

look at the team he is on the nationals Livan hernandez not the best year of his carrer there bbullpen isnt very good and he is the only reason they have wins nick johnson not that good jose vidro used to be good and there outfield he is the only good outfielder out there he is leading the majors in outfield assists but yet is value has been losing dont blame him blame the nats.

Alex44
08-06-2006, 02:07 AM
look at the team he is on the nationals Livan hernandez not the best year of his carrer there bbullpen isnt very good and he is the only reason they have wins nick johnson not that good jose vidro used to be good and there outfield he is the only good outfielder out there he is leading the majors in outfield assists but yet is value has been losing dont blame him blame the nats.

That doesnt answer the question

Who has he been valuable to this year? No-one, his team is losing

You shouldnt win MVP if you team isnt good at all, its not fair to the rest of the great players who actually help theirs win

Perfect23
08-06-2006, 02:08 AM
That doesnt answer the question

Who has he been valuable to this year? No-one, his team is losing

You shouldnt win MVP if you team isnt good at all, its not fair to the rest of the great players who actually help theirs win

but if there on a good team how r they the ones helping the team win look at Pujols the cardinals didnt run away with the division yet

finswin56
08-06-2006, 08:02 AM
That doesnt answer the question

Who has he been valuable to this year? No-one, his team is losing

You shouldnt win MVP if you team isnt good at all, its not fair to the rest of the great players who actually help theirs win

I'm sorry, but that just makes no sense. Soriano's play has been valuable, while the play of his teammates has been terrible. One player cannot control the play of his team. He most certainly can be valuable on a last place team. They could be much worse without Soriano.

What's not fair is someone getting the benefit of the doubt because he's blessed with being on a team with great pitching, or excellent surrounding talent. That surrounding talent is the real difference between the wins and losses of the teams battling for a playoff birth and those with no chance (see Nationals). If you want to disqualify a player from MVP status because his team isn't in contention, then you might as well argue that one person can overcome an absolute lack of team talent and force his team to win.

The measure of an MVP should be: How much worse would that player's team be without him? Being on a losing team doesn't disqualify you, but it does dampen the effect of an individual's play. That's why it will be so hard for Soriano. He will have to blow away the competition like ARod and Andre Dawson did in the past.

All that being said, I still believe Pujols will win, as Beltran and Wright steal votes from each other. Soriano will most likely end up 2nd or 3rd. I think Ryan Howard could make a late push too.

Alex44
08-06-2006, 08:08 AM
I'm sorry, but that just makes no sense. Soriano's play has been valuable, while the play of his teammates has been terrible. One player cannot control the play of his team. He most certainly can be valuable on a last place team. They could be much worse without Soriano.

What's not fair is someone getting the benefit of the doubt because he's blessed with being on a team with great pitching, or excellent surrounding talent. That surrounding talent is the real difference between the wins and losses of the teams battling for a playoff birth and those with no chance (see Nationals). If you want to disqualify a player from MVP status because his team isn't in contention, then you might as well argue that one person can overcome an absolute lack of team talent and force his team to win.

The measure of an MVP should be: How much worse would that player's team be without him? Being on a losing team doesn't disqualify you, but it does dampen the effect of an individual's play. That's why it will be so hard for Soriano. He will have to blow away the competition like ARod and Andre Dawson did in the past.

All that being said, I still believe Pujols will win, as Beltran and Wright steal votes from each other. Soriano will most likely end up 2nd or 3rd. I think Ryan Howard could make a late push too.

EXACTLY

If your on a terrible team they obviously cant be that worse off without you

Kdawg954
08-06-2006, 08:26 AM
As of right now . . its Pujois and Big Papi, case closed.

ganooch
08-06-2006, 11:44 AM
MYP = Most VALUABLE player. How valuable can a player be if his team finishes in last place or does not make the playoffs? If you are going to give it to someone like that they should rename the award the most "outstanding" player. MVP should be just that, valuable to his team.

MikeO
08-06-2006, 11:52 AM
MYP = Most VALUABLE player. How valuable can a player be if his team finishes in last place or does not make the playoffs?

So if the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, then Oriz can't win MVP. OK, nice logic. :shakeno:

FaninPatsyLand
08-06-2006, 11:53 AM
How do you NOT give the NL MVP award to Soriano?

How about the fact that he plays for Washington? What a terrible question..

Carlos Beltran deserves it..

MikeO
08-06-2006, 12:00 PM
How about the fact that he plays for Washington? What a terrible question..

Carlos Beltran deserves it..

internet tough guy is now following me around from thread to thread this morning looking to pick a fight with me! :lol:

I think he's got a MikeO man-crush!

FaninPatsyLand
08-06-2006, 12:04 PM
internet tough guy is now following me around from thread to thread this morning looking to pick a fight with me! :lol:

I think he's got a MikeO man-crush!

Hey I've been away for a week, it's not my fault that I'm behind on responding to asinine comments that just happened to come from your keyboard.

Here's a quick run down of what I've seen so far...

1) Let's give the MVP award to a player on the Washington Nationals, when you have comparable numbers from players on competitive teams.

2) Wang in the race for Cy Young.

ganooch
08-06-2006, 12:10 PM
So if the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, then Oriz can't win MVP. OK, nice logic. :shakeno:
you are right. THe team should at least be in contention. The difference with big Papi is that he is clutch beyond belief. THe guy is money. He should have won the mvp last year over A-rod

MikeO
08-06-2006, 12:14 PM
Hey I've been away for a week, it's not my fault that I'm behind on responding to asinine comments that just happened to come from your keyboard.

Here's a quick run down of what I've seen so far...

1) Let's give the MVP award to a player on the Washington Nationals, when you have comparable numbers from players on competitive teams.

2) Wang in the race for Cy Young.

1) I never said GIVE the award for Soriano, I simply asked a question that its gonna be tough not to give it to him with the year he is having. I simply made the statement that he will go 40-40 most likely and that is a tough pill to swallow. And unless Pujlos steals aroudn 35+ bases in 7 weeks there numbers wont' be comparable. Soriano will go 40-40 and the number of guys who have done that in this league the past 100 years aren't many!

2) Wang IS in the race for Cy Young. He has better numbers than Santana and is on a better team. If YOU are going to throw Santana in the race (as you did in a previous post in another thread) then HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU LEAVE Wang out?????

MikeO
08-06-2006, 12:15 PM
you are right. THe team should at least be in contention. The difference with big Papi is that he is clutch beyond belief. THe guy is money. He should have won the mvp last year over A-rod

AROD had better numbers and his team won the division. He had 1 more home runs, 22 stolen bases, batted .320 to Ortiz not batting over .300......and he played the field.

Your logic is all over the place and your anti-yankee feelings are coming out I think.

ganooch
08-06-2006, 12:20 PM
AROD had better numbers and his team won the division. He had 1 more home runs, 22 stolen bases, batted .320 to Ortiz not batting over .300......and he played the field.

Your logic is all over the place and your anti-yankee feelings are coming out I think.
my point is that Imo Big Papi is more valuable to the Red sox than A-rod was to the Yankees. Numbers are not everything. The Yankees are loaded from top to bottom with offensive weapons. A-rod has always been a number guy. He is however one of the best to ever play the game. I do hate the Yankees but I can honestly say that Jeter is more valuable to the Yankees than A-rod is. Jeter can play for my team any day!

MikeO
08-06-2006, 12:21 PM
Here is another one for ya. In around 41 less at bats, Manny this year has only 8 less home runs. 20 less RBI. A batting average of .320 to .290 edge over Ortiz (including 1 less total hit in 41 less at bats with Manny ALSO having 7 more walks). AND he plays the field.

If there numbers end up similar, Manny will get votes over Ortiz because .........he plays DEFENSE!!!!!!!

ganooch
08-06-2006, 12:23 PM
Here is another one for ya. In around 41 less at bats, Manny this year has only 8 less home runs. 20 less RBI. A batting average of .320 to .290 edge over Ortiz (including 1 less total hit in 41 less at bats with Manny ALSO having 7 more walks). AND he plays the field.

If there numbers end up similar, Manny will get votes over Ortiz because .........he plays DEFENSE!!!!!!!
you can't hold it against Ortiz that he is the DH. The American league has been using that ***** position for years. IT's like the NFL not recognizing punters for the hall of fame (except for Ray Guy).

MikeO
08-06-2006, 12:24 PM
I do hate the Yankees but I can honestly say that Jeter is more valuable to the Yankees than A-rod is. Jeter can play for my team any day!

Anyone with a clear head who looks at the numbers finds that above statment idiotic on every level.

ganooch
08-06-2006, 12:25 PM
Anyone with a clear head who looks at the numbers finds that above statment idiotic on every level.
again, all you look at is the numbers. Ask any Yankee fan (and I am surrounded by thousands) that Jeter is more valuable to the Yankees than A-rod is. the fact that you believe A-rod is more valuable than Jeter is in your own words "idiotic"

Ray Finkle
08-06-2006, 12:25 PM
1) I never said GIVE the award for Soriano, I simply asked a question that its gonna be tough not to give it to him with the year he is having. I simply made the statement that he will go 40-40 most likely and that is a tough pill to swallow. And unless Pujlos steals aroudn 35+ bases in 7 weeks there numbers wont' be comparable. Soriano will go 40-40 and the number of guys who have done that in this league the past 100 years aren't many!

I think you overrate SBs. Just my opinion, I'm not trying to start anything. Yes SBs are nice to have but I don't think they mean jack to the writers. The award is won on HRs and RBIs.

Again joining the 40/40 club is nice but only 1 player who did that won the MVP award.

FaninPatsyLand
08-06-2006, 12:31 PM
1) I never said GIVE the award for Soriano, I simply asked a question that its gonna be tough not to give it to him with the year he is having. I simply made the statement that he will go 40-40 most likely and that is a tough pill to swallow. And unless Pujlos steals aroudn 35+ bases in 7 weeks there numbers wont' be comparable. Soriano will go 40-40 and the number of guys who have done that in this league the past 100 years aren't many!

2) Wang IS in the race for Cy Young. He has better numbers than Santana and is on a better team. If YOU are going to throw Santana in the race (as you did in a previous post in another thread) then HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU LEAVE Wang out?????

Soriano shouldn't sniff an MVP award on the Washington Nationals when the numbers are comparable (which they will be) from other players on competitive teams. End of discussion, what a ridiculous notion.

2) I can leave Wang out because Santana has been flat out BETTER than Wang has. Take off your pinstriped glasses for a second and look at these numbers.

Santana
12-5
162.1 Innings Pitched
168 Strikeouts
3.22 ERA
1.07 WHIP
.218 OBA w/Bases Empty
.246 OBA w/Runners On
.197 OBA w/RISP
.197 OBA w/RISP and 2 Outs

Wang
13-4
156 Innings Pitched
48 Strikeouts
3.58 ERA
1.25 WHIP
.234 OBA w/Bases Empty
.316 OBA w/Runners On
.310 OBA w/RISP
.291 OBA w/RISP and 2 Outs

Aside from record, which isn't exactly the best indicator of how someone has pitched, there's no contest. And unlike good pitchers, Wang doesn't exactly get tougher to hit in big situations.

djfresh47
08-06-2006, 04:29 PM
I don't think a DH should win MVP nor should Soriano. It's not an award for the best player. Soriano is a great player but if you take him off the Nationals they're a last place team and they're a last place team with him so how valuable is he?

djfresh47
08-06-2006, 04:34 PM
Anyone with a clear head who looks at the numbers finds that above statment idiotic on every level.

A-Rod gets dumped on because of his contract. The hatred for him is laughable. Especially since the Yankees are paying Jeter more a season than A-Rod.

In the recent issue of ESPN the mag I believe Dan LeBatard points out something that is very true about A-Rod/Jeter. Jeter hits a late inning homerun he's starting a rally; A-Rod does the same thing he's hitting another meaningless homerun.

finswin56
08-06-2006, 05:39 PM
EXACTLY

If your on a terrible team they obviously cant be that worse off without you
Well, I guess they could have 39 wins instead of 49.

Saying that a player can't be valuable if his team isn't in contention is manipulating the definition of valuable to meet your expectations. Like I said, he'll have to blow away the competition, but it's just blind to disqualify someone from the MVP award for being on a losing team.

ChambersWI
08-06-2006, 05:52 PM
I don't think Big Papi will win the AL MVP just because voters will not give the award to a DH. The one thing he does have going for him is that the position players aren't having years close to him. The 3 best offensive players in the AL have been Papi,Thome, and Hafner(all DH's), the only 2 field players I can think of that are even having MVP type years are Jeter and Dye

MikeO
08-06-2006, 07:57 PM
I don't think Big Papi will win the AL MVP just because voters will not give the award to a DH. The one thing he does have going for him is that the position players aren't having years close to him. The 3 best offensive players in the AL have been Papi,Thome, and Hafner(all DH's), the only 2 field players I can think of that are even having MVP type years are Jeter and Dye

Manny also. His numbers aren't that far off from Ortiz especially since he has 41 less at bats

FaninPatsyLand
08-06-2006, 09:21 PM
If Jeter wins MVP over Papi then the writers who vote on it would have successfully made a mockery of the award process.

finfansince72
08-06-2006, 10:11 PM
Ortiz is the MVP of the AL, anyone that doesnt vote for him should have their privledges taken away. There is no more valuable player in the AL, his team is in playoff contention and his numbers are as good or better than anyone is. What seperates him is the clutch hitting, he has singlehandedly won more games over the last couple of years than any other player. This idiotic the DH can't win stuff is crap. There is absolutely no rule against it, just this idiotic notion that some stupid writers came up with and fans with no sense believe. Its total, complete and utter BS that Ortiz gets an asterisk near his name in consideration for MVP, he is the MVP of the AL.

Boik14
08-06-2006, 10:35 PM
Wright is 10 home runs off the pace of Soriano, Beltran, and Pujlos.

Beltran's AVG is only .280 while Soriano and Pujlos are at or near .300.

Beltran is a clear 3rd in the running behind Soriano and Pujlos. Beltran has more rbi by far which means he gets his rs with runners on. hes got a better ops as well. The hr's beltran was ahead a few days ago.

You seem to be the only one who cant see that sori has no business in the mvp discussion. Must be an arod fan as well. :rolleyes:

Players on last place teams/teams well under 500 arent MVP winners. the worst that can happen is that those teams are even worse and there isnt a heck of a lot of room for washington to be worse then they are.

Boik14
08-06-2006, 10:37 PM
look at the team he is on the nationals Livan hernandez not the best year of his carrer there bbullpen isnt very good and he is the only reason they have wins nick johnson not that good jose vidro used to be good and there outfield he is the only good outfielder out there he is leading the majors in outfield assists but yet is value has been losing dont blame him blame the nats. Exactly; look at the team he is on and check what hes done to make the team better. theyre in last place with him and theyd be in last without him.

Boik14
08-06-2006, 10:42 PM
Anyone with a clear head who looks at the numbers finds that above statment idiotic on every level.Numbers only mean so much. The last time the Yanks had a losing record during the jeter era? Never. Arod and his awesome fantasy stats didnt equate to wins in texas and while it wasnt entirely his fault dont tell me a team that was in the top 5 in runs seemingly every year didnt give him support. Arod is less valuabkle in real life then jeter any day of the week. Any real Yank fan knows it. Jeter is ridiculous in big spots and thats how you win games, not hitting insurance homers when its 11-4 already.

Boik14
08-06-2006, 10:44 PM
Soriano shouldn't sniff an MVP award on the Washington Nationals when the numbers are comparable (which they will be) from other players on competitive teams. End of discussion, what a ridiculous notion.

2) I can leave Wang out because Santana has been flat out BETTER than Wang has. Take off your pinstriped glasses for a second and look at these numbers.

Santana
12-5
162.1 Innings Pitched
168 Strikeouts
3.22 ERA
1.07 WHIP
.218 OBA w/Bases Empty
.246 OBA w/Runners On
.197 OBA w/RISP
.197 OBA w/RISP and 2 Outs

Wang
13-4
156 Innings Pitched
48 Strikeouts
3.58 ERA
1.25 WHIP
.234 OBA w/Bases Empty
.316 OBA w/Runners On
.310 OBA w/RISP
.291 OBA w/RISP and 2 Outs

Aside from record, which isn't exactly the best indicator of how someone has pitched, there's no contest. And unlike good pitchers, Wang doesn't exactly get tougher to hit in big situations. you have to excuse yank fans; they think they know everything....:cooldude:

Boik14
08-06-2006, 10:48 PM
Well, I guess they could have 39 wins instead of 49.

Saying that a player can't be valuable if his team isn't in contention is manipulating the definition of valuable to meet your expectations. Like I said, he'll have to blow away the competition, but it's just blind to disqualify someone from the MVP award for being on a losing team. No, I beg to differ brother Joe. Saying a player on a last place shouldnt win MVP is just an opinion that makes sense. If a player plays for a last place team they technically speaking, cant be that much worse. He may have great stats but the MVP is reserved for a great player, and great players elevate their club out of the cellar. Heck Id give it to Howard or Utley, Berkman or even Andruw Jones before Soriano. Theyve had strong seasons and their teams are at or around 500.

Ray Finkle
08-06-2006, 11:37 PM
Ortiz is the MVP of the AL, anyone that doesnt vote for him should have their privledges taken away. There is no more valuable player in the AL, his team is in playoff contention and his numbers are as good or better than anyone is. What seperates him is the clutch hitting, he has singlehandedly won more games over the last couple of years than any other player. This idiotic the DH can't win stuff is crap. There is absolutely no rule against it, just this idiotic notion that some stupid writers came up with and fans with no sense believe. Its total, complete and utter BS that Ortiz gets an asterisk near his name in consideration for MVP, he is the MVP of the AL.

I agree 100%.

Again I ask if a DH can't win an MVP award than how come Ortiz won the ALCS MVP award in 2004? And don't say its different it's not.

MikeO
08-06-2006, 11:42 PM
I agree 100%.

Again I ask if a DH can't win an MVP award than how come Ortiz won the ALCS MVP award in 2004? And don't say its different it's not.

7 games compard to 162........its different!!!

Boik14
08-06-2006, 11:47 PM
I agree 100%.

Again I ask if a DH can't win an MVP award than how come Ortiz won the ALCS MVP award in 2004? And don't say its different it's not.You can make a lot more impact in 7 games then over the course of 162 just hitting or just pitching. Think about it. If player x is a Dh and slumping hes actually detracting from the team but if he's slumping and playing good defense (see for reference Wright's game saving dive 08/05/06) youre still contributing. Plus all those extra hours sitting instead of getting fatigued physically and mentally in the elements well you should have good stats. Its like sayin a part time player should be MVP since a dh only plays 50% of the time.

Ray Finkle
08-06-2006, 11:49 PM
7 games compard to 162........its different!!!

Yeah because in a 7 game series Ortiz can't nearly win as many games with his bat than playing in 162 games. :wink:

Ray Finkle
08-06-2006, 11:52 PM
You can make a lot more impact in 7 games then over the course of 162 just hitting or just pitching. Think about it. If player x is a Dh and slumping hes actually detracting from the team but if he's slumping and playing good defense (see for reference Wright's game saving dive 08/05/06) youre still contributing. Plus all those extra hours sitting instead of getting fatigued physically and mentally in the elements well you should have good stats. Its like sayin a part time player should be MVP since a dh only plays 50% of the time.

See the problem I have is that everyone thinks DHing is easy to do. It's not. A lot of players hate to DH because it does take a certain type of player to be able to sit on the bench and have to come to the plate cold.

I admit that playing the field and hitting is a lot harder because of the wear and tear on the body especially in the dog days of summer. But like I said DHing isn't an easy thing to do either.

djfresh47
08-06-2006, 11:53 PM
Ortiz is the MVP of the AL, anyone that doesnt vote for him should have their privledges taken away. There is no more valuable player in the AL, his team is in playoff contention and his numbers are as good or better than anyone is. What seperates him is the clutch hitting, he has singlehandedly won more games over the last couple of years than any other player. This idiotic the DH can't win stuff is crap. There is absolutely no rule against it, just this idiotic notion that some stupid writers came up with and fans with no sense believe. Its total, complete and utter BS that Ortiz gets an asterisk near his name in consideration for MVP, he is the MVP of the AL.

Clutch is the most overrated word associated with sports. I don't think a guy who plays half the game should be MVP. He's had game winning hits but other guys on the team contribute. Hypothetically if the Red Sox win a game 7-6 and Ortiz hits a two run homerun to win it does it make the other runs scored meaningless? We focus on offense in baseball and ignore defense because as fans we like to see teams score which is why Ortiz probably will win MVP.

finfansince72
08-06-2006, 11:56 PM
Clutch is the most overrated word associated with sports. I don't think a guy who plays half the game should be MVP. He's had game winning hits but other guys on the team contribute. Hypothetically if the Red Sox win a game 7-6 and Ortiz hits a two run homerun to win it does it make the other runs scored meaningless? We focus on offense in baseball and ignore defense because as fans we like to see teams score which is why Ortiz probably will win MVP.

Clutch is overrated? Im sure every single coach or player in the league would disagree with you. Ortiz silenced everyone this year, he wins it this year because its just undeniable that he is the most valuable player in the league. If your life was on the line and you needed someone to get a hit who would you pick? If you say anyone other than Ortiz you are a liar straight up.

Ray Finkle
08-06-2006, 11:57 PM
Clutch is the most overrated word associated with sports. I don't think a guy who plays half the game should be MVP. He's had game winning hits but other guys on the team contribute. Hypothetically if the Red Sox win a game 7-6 and Ortiz hits a two run homerun to win it does it make the other runs scored meaningless? We focus on offense in baseball and ignore defense because as fans we like to see teams score which is why Ortiz probably will win MVP.

The MVP award is all about offense as the Gold Glove is about defense. I've never heard a sports writer or announcer or anyone say "Well this year was a tight race between Player A and Player B but in the end Player B had a better fielding % so the award went to him".

On the flip side, some players playing defense are actually hurting their teams by being on the field and killing grass. Just look at Bonds the last few years when he won the award. He didn't win the MVP for playing his heart out on the field. He stood there and let ball after ball drop in front of him because he didn't want to risk driving and hurting himself.

And no offense but if you saw Ortiz play everyday you'd have a lot of respect for him and the word clutch. The guy is amazing and carries his team.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:02 AM
See the problem I have is that everyone thinks DHing is easy to do. It's not. A lot of players hate to DH because it does take a certain type of player to be able to sit on the bench and have to come to the plate cold.

I admit that playing the field and hitting is a lot harder because of the wear and tear on the body especially in the dog days of summer. But like I said DHing isn't an easy thing to do either. Bro, Dh'ing is like doing part of your job and leaving the rest to the rest of your team. The only reasons it even exists is cause fans like runs and the DH helps generate that. Runs put ***** in seats which owners like. And the owners, since the players union whips their tail everytime, cant get rid of the DH so they pay them and make the best of it. Its a part time job. Part timers dont get rewards the full timers deserve.

Is ortiz sick? yeah he can mash as well as anyone. But he'd lose value if you ask him to play first base where hes got limited range. Thome is a similar story; except with Thome his back almost forces him to Dh.

Dhing isnt easy because hitting a baseball that changes directions and speeds is never easy. But hitting after you played the field is even harder. So why should the guy doing the least get the games highest individual honor? He shouldnt.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:05 AM
Clutch is the most overrated word associated with sports. I don't think a guy who plays half the game should be MVP. He's had game winning hits but other guys on the team contribute. Hypothetically if the Red Sox win a game 7-6 and Ortiz hits a two run homerun to win it does it make the other runs scored meaningless? We focus on offense in baseball and ignore defense because as fans we like to see teams score which is why Ortiz probably will win MVP. I agree. But clutch isnt overrated, its overused. A lot of people (announcers and fans) cant accurately determine what is clutch and what isnt so you hear every person who talks sports say so and so is so clutch after getting a hit w/risp in an 11-4 game (not a dig at arod).

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:07 AM
The MVP award is all about offense as the Gold Glove is about defense. I've never heard a sports writer or announcer or anyone say "Well this year was a tight race between Player A and Player B but in the end Player B had a better fielding % so the award went to him".

On the flip side, some players playing defense are actually hurting their teams by being on the field and killing grass. Just look at Bonds the last few years when he won the award. He didn't win the MVP for playing his heart out on the field. He stood there and let ball after ball drop in front of him because he didn't want to risk driving and hurting himself.

And no offense but if you saw Ortiz play everyday you'd have a lot of respect for him and the word clutch. The guy is amazing and carries his team. But if the MVP is about offense then whats the silver slugger for? MVP is for all around play.

djfresh47
08-07-2006, 12:09 AM
Clutch is overrated? Im sure every single coach or player in the league would disagree with you. Ortiz silenced everyone this year, he wins it this year because its just undeniable that he is the most valuable player in the league. If your life was on the line and you needed someone to get a hit who would you pick? If you say anyone other than Ortiz you are a liar straight up.


So I should just ignore everything in a close game until the 9th inning? Saying Ortiz wins games by himself is laughable really? He's had game winning hits late in a game but what's the difference between a game winning hit early in the game and late in the game? I looked at his late inning stats on MLB.com he's hitting slighly above his average at a little above .300 in late innings of close games. Since the all-star break he is hitting a ridiculous .538 in late innings of close games but I expect that will level off as more AB's come. If I needed a single hit i'd probably take Joe Mauer right now he is hitting 75 points higher than Ortiz. Also he has 5 homeruns in late innings of close games all vs right handed pitchers and he is hitting a modest .214 vs LH pitchers in late innings of close games.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=120074&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=mlb&sitSplit1=lc

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:10 AM
Bro, Dh'ing is like doing part of your job and leaving the rest to the rest of your team. The only reasons it even exists is cause fans like runs and the DH helps generate that. Runs put ***** in seats which owners like. And the owners, since the players union whips their tail everytime, cant get rid of the DH so they pay them and make the best of it. Its a part time job. Part timers dont get rewards the full timers deserve.

Is ortiz sick? yeah he can mash as well as anyone. But he'd lose value if you ask him to play first base where hes got limited range. Thome is a similar story; except with Thome his back almost forces him to Dh.

Dhing isnt easy because hitting a baseball that changes directions and speeds is never easy. But hitting after you played the field is even harder. So why should the guy doing the least get the games highest individual honor? He shouldnt.

So because there's a DH, Ortiz should be punished because of it? It's not like Ortiz is the only DH in the AL.

Sorry but I disagree with you about hitting while being a DH or hitting when playing the field. It is much harder to hitting when you're DHing because you're cold and your body relaxes while sitting on the bench. When you're in the field you still have your body going and are warm in the game. You have to have focus to be able to hit and have you ever tried to hit a ball after sitting on your butt for 45 minutes? It's not as easy as it would be if you were moving around. That's why you stretch out before you lift or work out (same logic).

And numerous players have said they don't like to DH because it's too hard for them to focus while sitting on the bench and then trying to get themselves pumped up to try and hit. Chipper Jones, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, and even Frank Thomas who is a full time DH.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:12 AM
But if the MVP is about offense then whats the silver slugger for? MVP is for all around play.

Sorry but the award is based all about offense. I doubt the voters even look at fielding %, put outs, assists, etc when voting.

djfresh47
08-07-2006, 12:15 AM
So because there's a DH, Ortiz should be punished because of it? It's not like Ortiz is the only DH in the AL.

Sorry but I disagree with you about hitting while being a DH or hitting when playing the field. It is much harder to hitting when you're DHing because you're cold and your body relaxes while sitting on the bench. When you're in the field you still have your body going and are warm in the game. You have to have focus to be able to hit and have you ever tried to hit a ball after sitting on your butt for 45 minutes? It's not as easy as it would be if you were moving around. That's why you stretch out before you lift or work out (same logic).

And numerous players have said they don't like to DH because it's too hard for them to focus while sitting on the bench and then trying to get themselves pumped up to try and hit. Chipper Jones, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, and even Frank Thomas who is a full time DH.

Frank Thomas hated playing the field. When he did play the field he was a much better hitter which would help your arguement but he just didn't wanna do it.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:16 AM
So I should just ignore everything in a close game until the 9th inning? Saying Ortiz wins games by himself is laughable really? He's had game winning hits late in a game but what's the difference between a game winning hit early in the game and late in the game? I looked at his late inning stats on MLB.com he's hitting slighly above his average at a little above .300 in late innings of close games. Since the all-star break he is hitting a ridiculous .538 in late innings of close games but I expect that will level off as more AB's come. If I needed a single hit i'd probably take Joe Mauer right now he is hitting 75 points higher than Ortiz. Also he has 5 homeruns in late innings of close games all vs right handed pitchers and he is hitting a modest .214 vs LH pitchers in late innings of close games.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=120074&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=mlb&sitSplit1=lc

Wouldn't you say there's a little more pressure when you're batting in the 9th inning with 2 outs compared to the 2nd or 3rd inning with 2 outs?

Joe Mauer over David Ortiz? :lol: Seriously? :lol:

EDIT: Ortiz got a GW winning walk off hit vs. the Angels and a lefty pitcher (Romero) last Saturday. So he still gets the job done vs. lefties.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:16 AM
So because there's a DH, Ortiz should be punished because of it? It's not like Ortiz is the only DH in the AL.

Sorry but I disagree with you about hitting while being a DH or hitting when playing the field. It is much harder to hitting when you're DHing because you're cold and your body relaxes while sitting on the bench. When you're in the field you still have your body going and are warm in the game. You have to have focus to be able to hit and have you ever tried to hit a ball after sitting on your butt for 45 minutes? It's not as easy as it would be if you were moving around. That's why you stretch out before you lift or work out (same logic).

And numerous players have said they don't like to DH because it's too hard for them to focus while sitting on the bench and then trying to get themselves pumped up to try and hit. Chipper Jones, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, and even Frank Thomas who is a full time DH. Well considering he only has half the responsibility as everyone else why should he be rewarded? There are hitters with comprarable stats who play the field. they do more for their teams.

You can argue a player is cold after he dh's but thats by choice. he could just as easily stay warm and ride a stationary bike. Fielders dont have that choice. Theyre in the field whether its rain or a heat wave. Ortiz or any other dh has the luxury of sitting in the shaded dugout. We can agree to disagree if youd like. i respect your opinion but disagree with your stance on this.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:17 AM
Frank Thomas hated playing the field. When he did play the field he was a much better hitter which would help your arguement but he just didn't wanna do it.

Exactly. The same with Giambi. Giambi's numbers playing 1st base compared to DHing are night and day (only Giambi hates DHing).

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:18 AM
[QUOTE=Ray Finkle]Wouldn't you say there's a little more pressure when you're batting in the 9th inning with 2 outs compared to the 2nd or 3rd inning with 2 outs?
Joe Mauer over David Ortiz? :lol: Seriously? :lol:] [/QUOTE That depends on the situation. A hit in the 2nd or 3rd inning can just as easily win the game or take the wind out of your team. there's more pressure in the 9th onl because you didnt do the right things for the first 8.

djfresh47
08-07-2006, 12:18 AM
Wouldn't you say there's a little more pressure when you're batting in the 9th inning with 2 outs compared to the 2nd or 3rd inning with 2 outs?

Joe Mauer over David Ortiz? :lol: Seriously? :lol:

.365 to .290, what's so crazy about that? So a game-winning hit should only be acknowledged if it is with 2 outs in the 9th inning? Also Mauer probably plays the most physically demanding position in baseball which makes his average much more impressive. Using the same logic we should only acknowledge the pitcher who gets the last out of a game and just ignore everything else that has happened.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:21 AM
Well considering he only has half the responsibility as everyone else why should he be rewarded? There are hitters with comprarable stats who play the field. they do more for their teams.

You can argue a player is cold after he dh's but thats by choice. he could just as easily stay warm and ride a stationary bike. Fielders dont have that choice. Theyre in the field whether its rain or a heat wave. Ortiz or any other dh has the luxury of sitting in the shaded dugout. We can agree to disagree if youd like. i respect your opinion but disagree with your stance on this.

But no one has stats that are comparable who play the field in the AL to Ortiz. That's why he should win it. Last year when Arod and Ortiz had pretty much the same numbers I had no problem that Arod won the award.

Nah dude, I definitely agree with some of the things you're saying and just trying to have a friendly debate (as with anyone else too) I don't mean to get anyone p/oed or whatever.

I guess it all comes down to that I just don't care if a DH wins the award. Maybe I'm a bit biased because Ortiz is my guy but trust me when I say if Travis Hafner was going to beat out Manny Ramirez for the award I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:21 AM
Sorry but the award is based all about offense. I doubt the voters even look at fielding %, put outs, assists, etc when voting. Youre right in that they probably dont look at those stats but by definition the silver slugger is for offense only and the gold glove is supposed to be for defense only.

But if you dont think it can make or break a case check out arod vs Ortiz on the 05 ballot and tell me some voters didnt vote for arod simply based on the DH factor last year. Arods gold glove caliber D set him apart when they had very similar stats

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:25 AM
.365 to .290, what's so crazy about that? So a game-winning hit should only be acknowledged if it is with 2 outs in the 9th inning? Also Mauer probably plays the most physically demanding position in baseball which makes his average much more impressive. Using the same logic we should only acknowledge the pitcher who gets the last out of a game and just ignore everything else that has happened.

Yes Mauer plays the hardest position in maybe all of sports but saying you'd rather take Mauer over Ortiz is nuts. What has Mauer ever done in his career besides this year to justifiy you putting him up to the plate instead of Ortiz.

If I could have one guy on my team to give the bat to in a big spot it would be Ortiz no matter what. Next would probably be Pujols and then Jeter. This is where looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Ortiz has 5 walk off hits this year alone. 12 in 3 years, that's insane. That's clutch and he has a track record of coming through. Mauer doesn't that's why it's crazy.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:26 AM
But no one has stats that are comparable who play the field in the AL to Ortiz. That's why he should win it. Last year when Arod and Ortiz had pretty much the same numbers I had no problem that Arod won the award.

Nah dude, I definitely agree with some of the things you're saying and just trying to have a friendly debate (as with anyone else too) I don't mean to get anyone p/oed or whatever.

I guess it all comes down to that I just don't care if a DH wins the award. Maybe I'm a bit biased because Ortiz is my guy but trust me when I say if Travis Hafner was going to beat out Manny Ramirez for the award I wouldn't have a problem with it. Hafner has similar stats. So does manny. I could easily make a case for Jeter and his 350 BA and the fact he may drive in 100 from the #2 slot and score 120 runs or thereabouts. Ortiz might luck into the award because Teixeira (RIP Fantasy baseball team), Vlad, and arod are all having down years but he still contributes less i the long run.

Anyway, back to the original debate about NL MVP or has that been settled that its likely to be:
Pujols
Beltran
Wright
Howard/Berkman/Utley/Sori

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:28 AM
Yes Mauer plays the hardest position in maybe all of sports but saying you'd rather take Mauer over Ortiz is nuts. What has Mauer ever done in his career besides this year to justifiy you putting him up to the plate instead of Ortiz.

If I could have one guy on my team to give the bat to in a big spot it would be Ortiz no matter what. Next would probably be Pujols and then Jeter. This is where looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Ortiz has 5 walk off hits this year alone. 12 in 3 years, that's insane. That's clutch and he has a track record of coming through. Mauer doesn't that's why it's crazy. Mauer over Ortiz isnt that nuts. Its much harder to find offense from a catcher then a 1b/DH type. But im not sure if you and DJ arent talking about 2 different things here with you talking about an individual Ab and him (I think) talking over the course of a season.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:28 AM
Youre right in that they probably dont look at those stats but by definition the silver slugger is for offense only and the gold glove is supposed to be for defense only.

But if you dont think it can make or break a case check out arod vs Ortiz on the 05 ballot and tell me some voters didnt vote for arod simply based on the DH factor last year. Arods gold glove caliber D set him apart when they had very similar stats

I agree with this statement. And IF a "position" player had similar numbers compared to Ortiz and the award went to him for that reason I wouldn't have any problem with it.

My point is Ortiz should win the AL MVP award no matter what simply because no one comes close to his numbers this year. Thus defense shouldn't matter in this years voting.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:31 AM
Mauer over Ortiz isnt that nuts. Its much harder to find offense from a catcher then a 1b/DH type. But im not sure if you and DJ arent talking about 2 different things here with you talking about an individual Ab and him (I think) talking over the course of a season.

This was from finfansince72:
"Clutch is overrated? Im sure every single coach or player in the league would disagree with you. Ortiz silenced everyone this year, he wins it this year because its just undeniable that he is the most valuable player in the league. If your life was on the line and you needed someone to get a hit who would you pick? If you say anyone other than Ortiz you are a liar straight up."

That is what I was talking about. If my life was on the line and needed someone to get a hit I'd go with Ortiz.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:37 AM
I agree with this statement. And IF a "position" player had similar numbers compared to Ortiz and the award went to him for that reason I wouldn't have any problem with it.

My point is Ortiz should win the AL MVP award no matter what simply because no one comes close to his numbers this year. Thus defense shouldn't matter in this years voting. But players do have comprarable stats (Runs/HR/RBI/BA/SB/OPS):
Thome: (81/33/83/298/0/1.044)
Hafner: (81/33/94/306/0/1.071)
Ortiz: (83/39/108/290/1/1.022)
Jeter: (74/8/67/350/24/.911)
Manny: (68/31/89/310/0/1.054)
Morneau: (64/29/97/323/1/.983)

The only stat papi stands out in is rbi. His BA is the worst (though by no means bad) of any of the candidates. His OPS is middle of the pack.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:39 AM
This was from finfansince72:
"Clutch is overrated? Im sure every single coach or player in the league would disagree with you. Ortiz silenced everyone this year, he wins it this year because its just undeniable that he is the most valuable player in the league. If your life was on the line and you needed someone to get a hit who would you pick? If you say anyone other than Ortiz you are a liar straight up."
That is what I was talking about. If my life was on the line and needed someone to get a hit I'd go with Ortiz.Thats fine. id go with D wright. Homeritis? Maybe. But my 2nd choice would be Jeter or Manny.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:43 AM
But players do have comprarable stats (Runs/HR/RBI/BA/SB/OPS):
Thome: (81/33/83/298/0/1.044)
Hafner: (81/33/94/306/0/1.071)
Ortiz: (83/39/108/290/1/1.022)
Jeter: (74/8/67/350/24/.911)
Manny: (68/31/89/310/0/1.054)
Morneau: (64/29/97/323/1/.983)

The only stat papi stands out in is rbi. His BA is the worst (though by no means bad) of any of the candidates. His OPS is middle of the pack.

Well I think a lot is going to depend on who makes the playoffs and who doesn't.

Personally I think these threads as to who should win an award right now are pointless. There's still a little less than 2 months left in the baseball season. A lot could happen and a player not even mentioned could carry his team into the playoffs in the last 2 weeks and win the award (ala Tejeda and Vlad a few years ago). The debate shouldn't really start until the middle of September.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:44 AM
Thats fine. id go with D wright. Homeritis? Maybe. But my 2nd choice would be Jeter or Manny.

Nahhhhhhh..... :wink:

finfansince72
08-07-2006, 12:54 AM
So I should just ignore everything in a close game until the 9th inning? Saying Ortiz wins games by himself is laughable really? He's had game winning hits late in a game but what's the difference between a game winning hit early in the game and late in the game? I looked at his late inning stats on MLB.com he's hitting slighly above his average at a little above .300 in late innings of close games. Since the all-star break he is hitting a ridiculous .538 in late innings of close games but I expect that will level off as more AB's come. If I needed a single hit i'd probably take Joe Mauer right now he is hitting 75 points higher than Ortiz. Also he has 5 homeruns in late innings of close games all vs right handed pitchers and he is hitting a modest .214 vs LH pitchers in late innings of close games.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=120074&statType=1&splitSet=1&c_id=mlb&sitSplit1=lc

Cmon man, this your life we are talking about. Youd pick Ortiz in a heartbeat.
Probaly should start new thread here for the AL MVP keep the thread seperate from the NL MVP.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:54 AM
Well I think a lot is going to depend on who makes the playoffs and who doesn't.

Personally I think these threads as to who should win an award right now are pointless. There's still a little less than 2 months left in the baseball season. A lot could happen and a player not even mentioned could carry his team into the playoffs in the last 2 weeks and win the award (ala Tejeda and Vlad a few years ago). The debate shouldn't really start until the middle of September. I agree the debate was started too early but as long as its around ill take the bait :D

Im just saying that if each continues said pace Papi neither sets himself apart statiscally and he doesnt play the field. My vote, if I had one right now, would be Jeter who's having a great season without some of the offensive support hes accustomed to. IMO Morneau wont win cause hes on a tiny market club. Thome/Hafner/Ortiz all have similar stats which leaves manny and jeets.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 12:55 AM
Nahhhhhhh..... :wink:is it bad doc?:tongue:

Alex44
08-07-2006, 12:56 AM
Question

If you cant give the MVP to a DH can you give it to a pitcher who pitches only every 5 games?

By your standard you should, Cy Young is the Pitching Award, Silver Slugger is the Hitters award. and the MVP should be the best of both right?

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:57 AM
I agree the debate was started too early but as long as its around ill take the bait :D

Im just saying that if each continues said pace Pai neither sets himself apart statiscally and he doesnt play the field. My vote, if I had one right now, would be Jeter. IMO Morneau wont win cause hes on a tiny market club. Thome/Hafner/Ortiz all have similar stats which leaves manny and jeets.

But right now Ortiz leads the MLB in HRs and RBIs and is 2nd in the AL (5 or 6 overall I believe) in runs scored. He's a run producing machine. Like you said if everyone continues the pace it will be hard for the voters to vote against a guy who leads possibly both leagues (but most likely the AL) in HRs and RBIs.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 12:58 AM
is it bad doc?:tongue:

Hey it's your life on the line not mine. :lol:

Boik14
08-07-2006, 01:00 AM
Question

If you cant give the MVP to a DH can you give it to a pitcher who pitches only every 5 games?

By your standard you should, Cy Young is the Pitching Award, Silver Slugger is the Hitters award. and the MVP should be the best of both right? No, I wouldnt give it to a pitcher. It would have to be a season like Gibson in 68/pedro in 99/Gooden in 85 for me to even consider it and the only reason I would is because pitching is so bad now its insane. And the hitting is so good because the pitching is so bad. And yeah, im a big fan of raising the mound height back to where it was in the 60's.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 01:00 AM
Question

If you cant give the MVP to a DH can you give it to a pitcher who pitches only every 5 games?

By your standard you should, Cy Young is the Pitching Award, Silver Slugger is the Hitters award. and the MVP should be the best of both right?

In my opinion, the MVP award can go to anyone no matter what position they play, including DH or pitcher. MVP stands for most valueble player. If a pitcher happens to be that, then so be it. Ditto for a DH.

Cy Young obvious goes to a pitcher for obvious reasons.

Silver Slugger award goes to the top players at position on the field (just like a gold glove).

Boik14
08-07-2006, 01:01 AM
Hey it's your life on the line not mine. :lol:shoot wrights got 4 or 5 gw hits this year. Ill take my chances. I know my hero wont fail me :cooldude:

Alex44
08-07-2006, 01:01 AM
No, I wouldnt give it to a pitcher. It would have to be a season like Gibson in 68/pedro in 99/Gooden in 85 for me to even consider it and the only reason I would is because pitching is so bad now its insane. And the hitting is so good because the pitching is so bad. And yeah, im a big fan of raising the mound height back to where it was in the 60's.


So pitcher who pitches great cant get it in a time when pitching great is harder, and neither can a DH because he doesnt play the field?

I dont like giving it to a pitcher either BTW

Boik14
08-07-2006, 01:03 AM
But right now Ortiz leads the MLB in HRs and RBIs and is 2nd in the AL (5 or 6 overall I believe) in runs scored. He's a run producing machine. Like you said if everyone continues the pace it will be hard for the voters to vote against a guy who leads possibly both leagues (but most likely the AL) in HRs and RBIs. Thing is he has 4-5 guys within striking distance on the hrs and 3-4 guys close in runs. So he really has to do more then maintain his pace. He has to set himself further apart.

Alex44
08-07-2006, 01:03 AM
In my opinion, the MVP award can go to anyone no matter what position they play, including DH or pitcher. MVP stands for most valueble player. If a pitcher happens to be that, then so be it. Ditto for a DH.

Cy Young obvious goes to a pitcher for obvious reasons.

Silver Slugger award goes to the top players at position on the field (just like a gold glove).

Exactly, my point is if a pitcher cant win it because its a hitters award then a DH should be able to win it based on his hitting thats all

If a pitcher has a monster season I have no problem giving it to him....he would have to win 23 games and have a sub 2.30 era though :lol:

Ray Finkle
08-07-2006, 01:04 AM
Thing is he has 4-5 guys within striking distance on the hrs and 3-4 guys close in runs. So he really has to do more then maintain his pace. He has to set himself further apart.

I agree, Ortiz must have numbers head above everyone else to win it.

I think we're getting mixed up and forgetting what each other is saying because we've been on this topic for a while now. :lol:

Boik14
08-07-2006, 01:08 AM
So pitcher who pitches great cant get it in a time when pitching great is harder, and neither can a DH because he doesnt play the field?

I dont like giving it to a pitcher either BTW Only a pitcher who pitches great deserves to get the MVP and its only because pitching is at such a premium now that Id consider it. It would have to be an all time great season like the ones I listed because pitchers now only get to pitch in roughly 33-35 games a season, about 1/5th of a teams games, and an even smaller percentage of the actual innings played. I suppose back in other era's when teams had 3-4 man rotations I could give it a little more consideration because of the opportunity to impact more games.

But if say, the Jays go 31 and 3 in games Halladay starts, the team overall has a good record, and Halladay had a line of say 24w-3l-2.L a 2.20 or less era-220+ k and a sub 1 whip then yea I think that demonstrates enough dominance to earn the award.

phinphan896
08-07-2006, 11:40 AM
id also say soriano. Just look at the numbers

djfresh47
08-07-2006, 01:18 PM
id also say soriano. Just look at the numbers

He's got insane numbers but his team is awful. I can't justify giving the MVP to a guy who is on a last place team. It's not an award for the best player it's for the most valuable. NL Mvp right now is Pujols, I think Beltran/Wright are going to split votes. If the Phillies can some how get the Wildcard maybe Ryan Howard gets a few votes.

MikeO
08-07-2006, 01:21 PM
The nationals are 4 games out of 2nd place.

If they finish in 2nd or 3rd place does that change anything with some of you people?

Just asking,

NJFINSFAN1
08-07-2006, 01:56 PM
Carlos Beltran or Puljos should win it, Soriano is an afterthought!

Alex44
08-07-2006, 01:58 PM
The nationals are 4 games out of 2nd place.

If they finish in 2nd or 3rd place does that change anything with some of you people?

Just asking,

If they finish close to the wildcard yes.

If they finish 12+ games back of the Mets in second place and way out of the wildcard then no

FinsNYanksFan13
08-07-2006, 04:46 PM
I'd say either Beltran or Wright for the MVP in the NL simply because their numbers are as good as anyone else in the league's and they play on the best team by far. As far as the AL I have no problem going with Papi. If a pitcher can pitch every 5 days and win an MVP (which they have in the past even though it isn't often) then a DH can win IMO!

NJFINSFAN1
08-07-2006, 04:51 PM
I'd say either Beltran or Wright for the MVP in the NL simply because their numbers are as good as anyone else in the league's and they play on the best team by far. As far as the AL I have no problem going with Papi. If a pitcher can pitch every 5 days and win an MVP (which they have in the past even though it isn't often) then a DH can win IMO!

Good post, while I love Wright, and he carried us early I think Beltran has had some huge hits lately, and his numbers are better then Wrights. But having two guys like that may hurt them being on the same team. To me Soriano is not even in the picture.

If Ortiz does not win, its a sham! Without him and all those big hits, the Red Sox's are 10 games if not more out!

And before someone asks why Soriano is not in the picture, I would say Zimmerman on the Nats is the MVP of that team, he has more RBI's and the same Average and a better defensive player. Soriano has driven himself in 35 times and still has three less RBI's then Zimmerman. I would also say Beltran, Wright, Pujols and Utley deserve it more then Soriano.

finswin56
08-07-2006, 05:44 PM
No, I beg to differ brother Joe. Saying a player on a last place shouldnt win MVP is just an opinion that makes sense. If a player plays for a last place team they technically speaking, cant be that much worse. He may have great stats but the MVP is reserved for a great player, and great players elevate their club out of the cellar. Heck Id give it to Howard or Utley, Berkman or even Andruw Jones before Soriano. Theyve had strong seasons and their teams are at or around 500.
What else could he do? This is like when people say Marino can't be considered as the greatest all time because of no SB victory when he mainly played on teams with poor D. Soriano can't do anything about the Nat's pitching. BTW, the Nat's are only 2.5 behind the Braves, 4 behind the Astros, and 4.5 behind the Phillies. There's not much difference there.

I just want to make it clear that I don't believe Soriano should be on equal footing with Beltran and Pujols; I just don't agree with the idea that a guy on a team out of contention can't be valuable. I do think that player needs to blow away the competition like Andre Dawson did for the Cubs. Do you think he shouldn't have received the MVP that year?

finswin56
08-07-2006, 05:48 PM
Good post, while I love Wright, and he carried us early I think Beltran has had some huge hits lately, and his numbers are better then Wrights. But having two guys like that may hurt them being on the same team. To me Soriano is not even in the picture.

If Ortiz does not win, its a sham! Without him and all those big hits, the Red Sox's are 10 games if not more out!

And before someone asks why Soriano is not in the picture, I would say Zimmerman on the Nats is the MVP of that team, he has more RBI's and the same Average and a better defensive player. Soriano has driven himself in 35 times and still has three less RBI's then Zimmerman. I would also say Beltran, Wright, Pujols and Utley deserve it more then Soriano.Regarding Zimmerman, he does have the fortune of batting 3rd while Soriano leads off with a .363 OBP. Those RBI differences must be taken into context.

NJFINSFAN1
08-07-2006, 05:54 PM
Regarding Zimmerman, he does have the fortune of batting 3rd while Soriano leads off with a .363 OBP. Those RBI differences must be taken into context.

Maybe, but I have been talking to a friend in Washington DC who is a season ticket holder, he says without Zimmerman, they would be so bad. When I said what about Soriano, he said nobody really thinks of him as a Nat anyway, he will be gone and he has cost many games with his lack of defense and hustle.

I just don't see Soriano getting many votes at all.

finswin56
08-07-2006, 06:02 PM
Maybe, but I have been talking to a friend in Washington DC who is a season ticket holder, he says without Zimmerman, they would be so bad. When I said what about Soriano, he said nobody really thinks of him as a Nat anyway, he will be gone and he has cost many games with his lack of defense and hustle.

I just don't see Soriano getting many votes at all.I don't see Soriano getting many either, but only because of the Nat's position. BTW, I'm not totally with you on Zimm being their MVP. Soriano has 23 more Runs, 20 more HR's, and 19 more SB's, while only have 3 less RBI than the #3 hitter. Zimm's D has been great, but Soriano gets that team started, kind of like Reyes with the Mets. Everyone gets caught up with Wright and Beltran, but the Mets success can be traced very closely with Reyes' success.

BTW, I don't know if you remember my post in March when I went to the Mets and Nat's spring game, but here it is http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showpost.php?p=2115039&postcount=46
Although it wasn't too hard to see the future greatness in that kid. I still can't believe he and D. Wright played on the same HS team.

Boik14
08-07-2006, 11:33 PM
What else could he do? This is like when people say Marino can't be considered as the greatest all time because of no SB victory when he mainly played on teams with poor D. Soriano can't do anything about the Nat's pitching. BTW, the Nat's are only 2.5 behind the Braves, 4 behind the Astros, and 4.5 behind the Phillies. There's not much difference there.

I just want to make it clear that I don't believe Soriano should be on equal footing with Beltran and Pujols; I just don't agree with the idea that a guy on a team out of contention can't be valuable. I do think that player needs to blow away the competition like Andre Dawson did for the Cubs. Do you think he shouldn't have received the MVP that year?There's a huge difference between baseball and football; in baseball you play offense and defense. In football your virtually helpless if the other side of the ball is just inept. As far as the pitching its not his fault for an underachieving staff but he hasnt elevated the club either. I mean they were better record wise last year so theyve actually gotten worse...

djfresh47
08-08-2006, 12:28 AM
I'd say either Beltran or Wright for the MVP in the NL simply because their numbers are as good as anyone else in the league's and they play on the best team by far. As far as the AL I have no problem going with Papi. If a pitcher can pitch every 5 days and win an MVP (which they have in the past even though it isn't often) then a DH can win IMO!

Beltran and Wright are good choices but if the Cardinals don't have Pujols they're a laughing stock in the league. I do think Ortiz will win MVP but I don't believe a DH should unless he's got numbers that blow everybody elses away. Basically he'd have to put up Bonds on 'roids numbers. It's not like a case couldn't be made for guys like Jeter/Dye/Morneau either who are having very good seasons and play the whole game.

MikeO
08-08-2006, 12:36 AM
Beltran and Wright are good choices but if the Cardinals don't have Pujols they're a laughing stock in the league. I do think Ortiz will win MVP but I don't believe a DH should unless he's got numbers that blow everybody elses away. Basically he'd have to put up Bonds on 'roids numbers. It's not like a case couldn't be made for guys like Jeter/Dye/Morneau either who are having very good seasons and play the whole game.

Manny's numbers aren't far off from Ortiz's and he has done it in 41 less at bats. Factor in the next 7 weeks and their numbers could end up being around equal with Manny doing it in less at bats. You can make a case Ortiz isn't the MVP of his team, Manny is if you go strictly by the numbers.

Ray Finkle
08-08-2006, 08:03 AM
Manny's numbers aren't far off from Ortiz's and he has done it in 41 less at bats. Factor in the next 7 weeks and their numbers could end up being around equal with Manny doing it in less at bats. You can make a case Ortiz isn't the MVP of his team, Manny is if you go strictly by the numbers.

I understand what you're saying but anyone who watches the Red Sox play everyday would know that there is no case. Manny isn't the MVP of the Red Sox, it's Ortiz.

Papelbon is the only one that could make a serious case against Ortiz. Everyone else just isn't on the same field. Yes Manny has great numbers but Ortiz is the one putting everyone on his back and carrying the team.

phunwin
08-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Let's take the Pepsi Challenge with the NL MVP candidates, just looking at stats, not place in standings...

Player A: 99 G, .281 BA/.384 OBP/.619 SLG, 33 HR, 97 RBI, 14 SB, 84 R
Player B: 110 G, .290/.363/.598, 35 HR, 72 RBI, 28 SB, 83 R
Player C: 93 G, .326/.432/.689, 34 HR, 91 RBI, 5 SB, 82 R

Even if we assume that Player A is high in the running for a Gold Glove at his position, and Player B has been more valuable defensively than Player C, is there any possible way that Player C's stats don't carry the day? 70 points of slugging and 48 points of OBP on the next closest guy is just too much to ignore.

If I had a ballot, it would go 1. Pujols, 2. Beltran, 3. Soriano.

NJFINSFAN1
08-08-2006, 09:50 AM
Let's take the Pepsi Challenge with the NL MVP candidates, just looking at stats, not place in standings...

Player A: 99 G, .281 BA/.384 OBP/.619 SLG, 33 HR, 97 RBI, 14 SB, 84 R
Player B: 110 G, .290/.363/.598, 35 HR, 72 RBI, 28 SB, 83 R
Player C: 93 G, .326/.432/.689, 34 HR, 91 RBI, 5 SB, 82 R

Even if we assume that Player A is high in the running for a Gold Glove at his position, and Player B has been more valuable defensively than Player C, is there any possible way that Player C's stats don't carry the day? 70 points of slugging and 48 points of OBP on the next closest guy is just too much to ignore.

If I had a ballot, it would go 1. Pujols, 2. Beltran, 3. Soriano.

Player D: 101 G/ 325 BA/ 405 OBP/ 630 SLG/ 30 HR's/ 97 RBI's 1 SB/ 60 R

I think Berkman gets more votes then Soriano.

finswin56
08-08-2006, 01:34 PM
There's a huge difference between baseball and football; in baseball you play offense and defense. In football your virtually helpless if the other side of the ball is just inept. As far as the pitching its not his fault for an underachieving staff but he hasnt elevated the club either. I mean they were better record wise last year so theyve actually gotten worse...

There is a huge difference, but can you really tell me that you believe Soriano's performance this year is to blame for the Nat's season? That's what it sounds like.

Who's to say he hasn't already elevated that team to a level they wouldn't otherwise have realized? A lead off hitter with those numbers relative to his team's total production is clearly the spark plug of his team' offense. Soriano's defense will never win him a gold glove, and at most it's cost the Nat's a game (he's actually played much better in LF than anyone anticipated), while his offensive production has carried that team.

Like Phil points out, Pujols should be the clear favorite. Not only are his numbers superior, but he also clearly makes that team go, and they are in first place.

Boik14
08-08-2006, 05:24 PM
There is a huge difference, but can you really tell me that you believe Soriano's performance this year is to blame for the Nat's season? That's what it sounds like.

Who's to say he hasn't already elevated that team to a level they wouldn't otherwise have realized? A lead off hitter with those numbers relative to his team's total production is clearly the spark plug of his team' offense. Soriano's defense will never win him a gold glove, and at most it's cost the Nat's a game (he's actually played much better in LF than anyone anticipated), while his offensive production has carried that team.

Like Phil points out, Pujols should be the clear favorite. Not only are his numbers superior, but he also clearly makes that team go, and they are in first place. Im not blaming sori for anything. Im also not giving him credit for an individual award when the teams play has actually regressed from the same point last year.

I concurred a long time ago in this thread that AP was the favorite but that beltran wright berkman utley howard and 1-2 others deserve some votes. Beltrans probaly the only guy with a chance at uprooting pujols because hes been the best player on the best team with close stats and thats what won the Cy young for Carpenter last year over Dontrelle. So the precedent has been set in that respect for Beltran to actually steal the award.

finswin56
08-08-2006, 06:28 PM
It would be great to have the MVP in NY. Would would have thought a year ago that we'd be talking about Carlos Beltran being a legit MVP candidate?

Boik14
08-08-2006, 10:06 PM
It would be great to have the MVP in NY. Would would have thought a year ago that we'd be talking about Carlos Beltran being a legit MVP candidate?Im not going to say I did but we know he wasnt THAT bad. I mean even the biggest haters knew he was at minimum 25hr/25sb/90rbi/260 minimum or theyre just lying to themselves.

I will say I never thought of Beltran as a power hitter, but more a line drive/doubles hitter who hits some hrs, so the 45hr pace is surprising.

djfresh47
08-08-2006, 11:24 PM
Im not going to say I did but we know he wasnt THAT bad. I mean even the biggest haters knew he was at minimum 25hr/25sb/90rbi/260 minimum or theyre just lying to themselves.

I will say I never thought of Beltran as a power hitter, but more a line drive/doubles hitter who hits some hrs, so the 45hr pace is surprising.

His postseason two seasons ago with Houston I think elevated expectations of him as a power hitter. He spent most of his time in KC on a awful team so i'll give him a mulligan on last year as he was adjusting to the city.

Boik14
08-08-2006, 11:25 PM
His postseason two seasons ago with Houston I think elevated expectations of him as a power hitter. He spent most of his time in KC on a awful team so i'll give him a mulligan on last year as he was adjusting to the city.and playing witha bum quad/2 fractured facial bones. Hes earned the mulligan with the year hes having this year but i hope he doesnt pull an arod next year and regress again

finswin56
08-09-2006, 10:07 AM
I don't see him regressing. Beltran seems to have adjusted to NY, and the fans are finally taking a likeing to him. He's in his prime years, and should be even more comfortable in NY next year.

djfresh47
08-10-2006, 01:55 AM
This is the homer in me talking but if Joe Crede hits .300 with 30 Homeruns and 100 rbi's while playing a gold glove 3b shouldn't he be in the conversation for AL MVP? Especially if the White Sox make the playoffs and the BoSox fall out.

finswin56
08-10-2006, 09:28 AM
I think it's the homer in you. I have to think Konerko, Dye, and Thome still mean more to the White Sox.

NJFINSFAN1
08-10-2006, 09:31 AM
This is the homer in me talking but if Joe Crede hits .300 with 30 Homeruns and 100 rbi's while playing a gold glove 3b shouldn't he be in the conversation for AL MVP? Especially if the White Sox make the playoffs and the BoSox fall out.

To be truthfull, this is the first time I heard his name this year, that's why he won't win or get votes, nobody hears about him.

I do think Thome would get more votes then him.

ChambersWI
08-10-2006, 11:48 AM
someone I just thought about for the AL; Justin Morneau.

Since mid-June, he's lead the AL in average,HRs,slugging,obp,and RBIs. Last night he hit his 30th HR(First twin to do that since 1987), and batted in his 101st RBI. If The Twins make the playoffs, why not him?

finswin56
08-10-2006, 12:09 PM
someone I just thought about for the AL; Justin Morneau.

Since mid-June, he's lead the AL in average,HRs,slugging,obp,and RBIs. Last night he hit his 30th HR(First twin to do that since 1987), and batted in his 101st RBI. If The Twins make the playoffs, why not him?I do think he'll receive some votes, although probably no higher than 3rd or 4th. Still not bad still being quite young and this being his first full year.

djfresh47
08-10-2006, 08:36 PM
I think it's the homer in you. I have to think Konerko, Dye, and Thome still mean more to the White Sox.

He is their best defensive player and his numbers are compareable. His RBI's are lower because he generally hits in the 6-7 hole. If fans don't think a DH should get the award which I believe shouldn't we also consider defense rather than just a guy who plays the field?

finswin56
08-10-2006, 08:56 PM
Crede's D shouldn't be overlooked, but it will be. No one's defense will make up for such a gap in offensive production.

People look down at DH's for MVP because they don't play the whole game, and only contribute on offense. Whereas a position player's defense, if great, will not amount to much more than a compensating factor.
Basically, he would have to be on par with the other candidates offensively for the defense to come in to play. Like ARod and Ortiz last year. Maybe it should mean more, but it doesn't... numbers always rule.

RWhitney014
08-11-2006, 12:28 AM
On Crede, no. He's not the best player on his own team, and he's not the most valuable, either. He might not even be in the top three. Guy finally came into his own and is having a great season, but he's not an MVP.

Back to the NL. Right now, he's not a candidate, but if he goes on a HR binge and his team makes the playoffs, let's consider this player's current line:

.336-17-76, .430 OBP, .554 SLG (.984 OPS), and doing it without a Rolen, Delgado, Thome support system in his lineup. Yes, I'm talking about Miguel Cabrera. In a lineup like his, he wasn't supposed to get pitches to hit, so instead of focusing on jacking balls out of the yard, he's merely a top candidate to win the batting title. If - big if - he gets to the 30 HR-110 RBI plateau without the other numbers dropping, and - bigger if - the Marlins make a serious run at the Wild Card, Cabrera has to be a big, big candidate, because his team sure wouldn't be anywhere near where they are without him.

djfresh47
08-11-2006, 12:16 PM
How terrible is the National league when under .500 teams have a shot at the playoffs where in the AL teams that are 20 games over are competing for the WC.