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MikeO
08-19-2006, 11:43 PM
Philly is only 2.5 games out of the WILD CARD and they are hot.

Rollins is RED HOT and on another tear like the end of last year. I wonder if some of those trades will come back and haunt them. Oh well, they wanted Bobby gone. They didn't like him.

Ray Finkle
08-19-2006, 11:50 PM
Philly is only 2.5 games out of the WILD CARD and they are hot.

Rollins is RED HOT and on another tear like the end of last year. I wonder if some of those trades will come back and haunt them. Oh well, they wanted Bobby gone. They didn't like him.

Hey anything can happen in the NL this year, it's just so weak. I don't like the Phillies pitching but what wild card team has good pitching besides Houston? Houston's problem is they have no hitting what so ever and are 5 games back. The Reds have been playing very well but when your top pitchers are Harrang and Arroyo that just tells you how weak the NL is. Arizona is 1 game back and all they have is Webb. It should be an interesting month and a half of baseball.

What would really make the playoffs better would just have the top 7 AL teams and the Mets in the playoffs. At least there will be some series/games that would be watchable and every team would have somewhat of a chance.

FinsNYanksFan13
08-20-2006, 12:02 AM
They just added Jaime Moyer!

King Felix
08-20-2006, 12:37 AM
:confused: who did seattle get back?

Ray Finkle
08-20-2006, 12:52 AM
:confused: who did seattle get back?

Two no name prospects.

King Felix
08-20-2006, 12:55 AM
well atleast it opens another spot in the rotation for a young guy

djfresh47
08-20-2006, 02:14 AM
Bobby Abreu is an average player although he's responded to the change of scenary. The Phillies and the rest of the NL are pathetic and are really just playing to be probably the 6th-7th best team in baseball during the playoffs.

MikeO
08-20-2006, 09:20 AM
Bobby Abreu is an average player although he's responded to the change of scenary. The Phillies and the rest of the NL are pathetic and are really just playing to be probably the 6th-7th best team in baseball during the playoffs.

While Abreu isn't in the Soriano, Arod, Manny, Pujols categeory. He is far better than an average player.

djfresh47
08-20-2006, 11:09 PM
While Abreu isn't in the Soriano, Arod, Manny, Pujols categeory. He is far better than an average player.

Really? I have no idea what his Yankees stats are but he has been playing pretty well i've heard. Prior to the trade in his 170 previous games he had an average around .270 with 14 homeruns. Seem pretty average numbers to me.

Nappy Roots
08-20-2006, 11:45 PM
Really? I have no idea what his Yankees stats are but he has been playing pretty well i've heard. Prior to the trade in his 170 previous games he had an average around .270 with 14 homeruns. Seem pretty average numbers to me.


still, hes OBP has still been higher than average, and he plays good defense and can steal some bases and run them pretty good.. hes got an OPS near 900 dispite his lack of power this year. put that with 27 SBs and a above average glove and you got far from an "average" player.

his EqA is .302 which is damn good.

Ray Finkle
08-20-2006, 11:46 PM
Really? I have no idea what his Yankees stats are but he has been playing pretty well i've heard. Prior to the trade in his 170 previous games he had an average around .270 with 14 homeruns. Seem pretty average numbers to me.

Although Abreu is playing insane right now, he's not this good. He is however an above average player even if he hasn't had the best year and a half.

Ray Finkle
08-20-2006, 11:49 PM
still, hes OBP has still been higher than average, and he plays good defense and can steal some bases and run them pretty good.. hes got an OPS near 900 dispite his lack of power this year. put that with 27 SBs and a above average glove and you got far from an "average" player.

his EqA is .302 which is damn good.

Ah I don't know about that. He has a great arm but I think his defense is a bit overrated. Yes he won a gold glove last year but it was considered a joke among Phillies fans who saw him play everyday. He's afraid of the wall, has his brain fart moments out there and doesn't always hustle.

Nappy Roots
08-20-2006, 11:54 PM
Ah I don't know about that. He has a great arm but I think his defense is a bit overrated. Yes he won a gold glove last year but it was considered a joke among Phillies fans who saw him play everyday. He's afraid of the wall, has his brain fart moments out there and doesn't always hustle.


well still...i dont watch much philiies so i dont know for sure. but i would imagine his speed would let him cover more ground than an average guy...

outside that, his bat is still above-average alone so....

Boik14
08-21-2006, 12:01 AM
While Abreu isn't in the Soriano, Arod, Manny, Pujols categeory. He is far better than an average player.Not really. the average OPS for starters (over a 125 games played) in mlb the last 2 years is about .750. Abreu is at 879 (bolstered by a big 1st half) in 05 and 861 as a phillie this year. So hes above average but nothing great. Hasnt been great since 04.

Boik14
08-21-2006, 12:04 AM
well still...i dont watch much philiies so i dont know for sure. but i would imagine his speed would let him cover more ground than an average guy...
outside that, his bat is still above-average alone so.... No he doesnt get good reads on the ball and as someone else alluded he is afraid of the wall. He tends to make mental mistakes that dont show up in a boxscore. Hes good, not a gold glove player though by any stretch. Whoever voted him as gold glove needs to look up the definition of the award.

Nappy Roots
08-21-2006, 12:17 AM
No he doesnt get good reads on the ball and as someone else alluded he is afraid of the wall. He tends to make mental mistakes that dont show up in a boxscore. Hes good, not a gold glove player though by any stretch. Whoever voted him as gold glove needs to look up the definition of the award.

alright...

but have you seen the gold glove lately? its been a joke for years now. so, it doesnt surprise me to hear this.

Boik14
08-21-2006, 12:21 AM
alright...

but have you seen the gold glove lately? its been a joke for years now. so, it doesnt surprise me to hear this.Thats true. Hows the surgery healing? hopefully well dude :cooldude:

Nappy Roots
08-21-2006, 12:24 AM
Thats true. Hows the surgery healing? hopefully well dude :cooldude:


yea its went good so far. go back to the doctor in the morning for a checkup. he said since im young and healthy i should be ahead of schedule, so tomorrow i may get to take the drainage tubes out already..get back to semi-normal life.

Ray Finkle
08-21-2006, 12:28 AM
yea its went good so far. go back to the doctor in the morning for a checkup. he said since im young and healthy i should be ahead of schedule, so tomorrow i may get to take the drainage tubes out already..get back to semi-normal life.

You'll never have a semi-normal life, you root for the Devil Rays :wink:

Just kidding man, I had to take a shot at you, but I'm glad you're doing well. Here's to an even faster recovery.

Nappy Roots
08-21-2006, 12:31 AM
You'll never have a semi-normal life, you root for the Devil Rays :wink:

Just kidding man, I had to take a shot at you, but I'm glad you're doing well. Here's to an even faster recovery.


:boohoo:

they have been horrible this 2nd half to...its got to the point where today i only watched half the game...at this point i just cant wait for the offseason with them...

Ray Finkle
08-21-2006, 12:32 AM
:boohoo:

they have been horrible this 2nd half to...its got to the point where today i only watched half the game...at this point i just cant wait for the offseason with them...

They can't be any worse than the Red Sox have been.

Boik14
08-21-2006, 12:45 AM
yea its went good so far. go back to the doctor in the morning for a checkup. he said since im young and healthy i should be ahead of schedule, so tomorrow i may get to take the drainage tubes out already..get back to semi-normal life.Good news bro.

RWhitney014
08-21-2006, 12:56 AM
Well, since there's a debate about Bobby Abreu, I'll throw my two cents in, since I've watched him kill the Marlins for the past decade.

Since 1998, Abreu's averages: .312, 335, .316, .289, .308, .300, .301, .286
HR: 17, 20, 25, 31, 20, 20, 30, 24
RBI: 74, 93, 79, 110, 85, 101, 105, 102

Plenty of guys produce in the big three offensive categories like that year-in and year-out. Here's where it gets good.

SB/CS: 10/10, 27/9, 28/8, 36/14, 31/12, 22/9, 40/5, 31/9 (SICK!)
OBP: .409, .446, .416, .393, .413, .409, .428, .405 (SICK!)
BB: 84, 109, 100, 106, 104, 109, 127, 117 (SICK!)

And since he's been a full-time player, the fewest number of games he's ever played in a season: 151. He's played all 162 twice. Say what you want about his hustle, but the guy brings it moreso than it looks. He's got the Andruw Jones nonchalant style, but his defense leaves little to be desired. He doesn't run into walls, which means Philadelphians thought he was soft, but I'll take those numbers every damn day.

A guy that hits for that much power, gets on base that much, and sees as many pitches as he does, especially from the left side of the plate, creates a matchup nightmare for pitchers and managers. Phillies fans are the most critical in the game. They'll tell you Michael Jack Schmidt was awful if you listen. Bobby Abreu is a great, great player. Whether he's a winner remains to be seen. But on talent alone, few can compete.

King Felix
08-21-2006, 12:59 AM
i cant watch the mariners either

Ray Finkle
08-21-2006, 01:00 AM
i cant watch the mariners either

Thank god for football huh? The season can't come quick enough.

King Felix
08-21-2006, 01:02 AM
:yes: but this red sox yankee game is better than prolly most of the mlb playoffs this year

Boik14
08-21-2006, 01:22 AM
Well, since there's a debate about Bobby Abreu, I'll throw my two cents in, since I've watched him kill the Marlins for the past decade.

Since 1998, Abreu's averages: .312, 335, .316, .289, .308, .300, .301, .286
HR: 17, 20, 25, 31, 20, 20, 30, 24
RBI: 74, 93, 79, 110, 85, 101, 105, 102

Plenty of guys produce in the big three offensive categories like that year-in and year-out. Here's where it gets good.

SB/CS: 10/10, 27/9, 28/8, 36/14, 31/12, 22/9, 40/5, 31/9 (SICK!)
OBP: .409, .446, .416, .393, .413, .409, .428, .405 (SICK!)
BB: 84, 109, 100, 106, 104, 109, 127, 117 (SICK!)

And since he's been a full-time player, the fewest number of games he's ever played in a season: 151. He's played all 162 twice. Say what you want about his hustle, but the guy brings it moreso than it looks. He's got the Andruw Jones nonchalant style, but his defense leaves little to be desired. He doesn't run into walls, which means Philadelphians thought he was soft, but I'll take those numbers every damn day.

A guy that hits for that much power, gets on base that much, and sees as many pitches as he does, especially from the left side of the plate, creates a matchup nightmare for pitchers and managers. Phillies fans are the most critical in the game. They'll tell you Michael Jack Schmidt was awful if you listen. Bobby Abreu is a great, great player. Whether he's a winner remains to be seen. But on talent alone, few can compete. No one is disputing 98-04 or even 1st half of 05. Im disputing everything since then. Hes been nothing great. Hes a big name in fantasy. Hes been great a nyy and who knows maybe thats what he needed to be revitalized. But from post AS break 05 to the time he was dealt he was very average, maybe slightly above. In the end i wouldnt mind putting faith in his offensive stats jumping again but for that time it looked like he was on the downside. We can only wait and see.

MikeO
08-21-2006, 01:32 AM
No one is disputing 98-04 or even 1st half of 05. Im disputing everything since then. Hes been nothing great. Hes a big name in fantasy. Hes been great a nyy and who knows maybe thats what he needed to be revitalized. But from post AS break 05 to the time he was dealt he was very average, maybe slightly above. In the end i wouldnt mind putting faith in his offensive stats jumping again but for that time it looked like he was on the downside. We can only wait and see.

Your just a mets fan who can't take off the rose colored glasses. Your just hatin on a guy who played for Philly and Yanks (the mets rivals) just because your a mets fan. The deal is when talking about the Top 10 ALL AROUND players in baseball (defense, offense, speed, arm)....the 5 tool guys.....Abreu is on that list still. Maybe not top of the list, but still on the list. Sorry to break it to ya. He might not be what he was in 2004, but he isnt that far off! :shakeno:

UCFinfan86
08-21-2006, 08:45 AM
Your just a mets fan who can't take off the rose colored glasses. Your just hatin on a guy who played for Philly and Yanks (the mets rivals) just because your a mets fan. The deal is when talking about the Top 10 ALL AROUND players in baseball (defense, offense, speed, arm)....the 5 tool guys.....Abreu is on that list still. Maybe not top of the list, but still on the list. Sorry to break it to ya. He might not be what he was in 2004, but he isnt that far off! :shakeno:

lol how are you gonna call someone out for hating on a team. You are the most biased guy around here.

djfresh47
08-21-2006, 05:01 PM
Well, since there's a debate about Bobby Abreu, I'll throw my two cents in, since I've watched him kill the Marlins for the past decade.

Since 1998, Abreu's averages: .312, 335, .316, .289, .308, .300, .301, .286
HR: 17, 20, 25, 31, 20, 20, 30, 24
RBI: 74, 93, 79, 110, 85, 101, 105, 102

Plenty of guys produce in the big three offensive categories like that year-in and year-out. Here's where it gets good.

SB/CS: 10/10, 27/9, 28/8, 36/14, 31/12, 22/9, 40/5, 31/9 (SICK!)
OBP: .409, .446, .416, .393, .413, .409, .428, .405 (SICK!)
BB: 84, 109, 100, 106, 104, 109, 127, 117 (SICK!)

And since he's been a full-time player, the fewest number of games he's ever played in a season: 151. He's played all 162 twice. Say what you want about his hustle, but the guy brings it moreso than it looks. He's got the Andruw Jones nonchalant style, but his defense leaves little to be desired. He doesn't run into walls, which means Philadelphians thought he was soft, but I'll take those numbers every damn day.

A guy that hits for that much power, gets on base that much, and sees as many pitches as he does, especially from the left side of the plate, creates a matchup nightmare for pitchers and managers. Phillies fans are the most critical in the game. They'll tell you Michael Jack Schmidt was awful if you listen. Bobby Abreu is a great, great player. Whether he's a winner remains to be seen. But on talent alone, few can compete.

Prior to the trade with the yankees like I said earlier in about 170 games he hit .270 with 14 homeruns. To me those aren't "great" numbers. He's always been a good OBP guy and usually it around the top of the list of pitches seen per AB but their is no way he's a great player.

Nappy Roots
08-21-2006, 05:03 PM
Prior to the trade with the yankees like I said earlier in about 170 games he hit .270 with 14 homeruns. To me those aren't "great" numbers. He's always been a good OBP guy and usually it around the top of the list of pitches seen per AB but their is no way he's a great player.


so average and HRs are what measures a player for you?

djfresh47
08-21-2006, 05:14 PM
so average and HRs are what measures a player for you?

It's not everything but when considering everyday players that is what the National Media bases players on. Which is why Andruw Jones wasn't MVP last year and David Ortiz most likely will be MVP this season. Their really is no stat to acknowledge defense especially for Outfielders. Maybe we could go with assists but then it makes it hard because we don't measure bad throws by OF's only the good ones right? Their is no way to tell what is an ordinary play for an OF to make and what is a great play. The best example I can use for this would be Andruw Jones who makes every defensive play look easy because of his talent yet an ordinary OF does not make some of those same plays. I would look up his RBI total during that time period but I am too lazy to do that right now.

Teams just mash now and average and homeruns are the easiest way to measure guys and correct me if i'm wrong who were hitting in spots that usually generate power which i'm guessing Abreu did in Philly.

Nappy Roots
08-21-2006, 05:42 PM
It's not everything but when considering everyday players that is what the National Media bases players on. Which is why Andruw Jones wasn't MVP last year and David Ortiz most likely will be MVP this season. Their really is no stat to acknowledge defense especially for Outfielders. Maybe we could go with assists but then it makes it hard because we don't measure bad throws by OF's only the good ones right? Their is no way to tell what is an ordinary play for an OF to make and what is a great play. The best example I can use for this would be Andruw Jones who makes every defensive play look easy because of his talent yet an ordinary OF does not make some of those same plays. I would look up his RBI total during that time period but I am too lazy to do that right now.

Teams just mash now and average and homeruns are the easiest way to measure guys and correct me if i'm wrong who were hitting in spots that usually generate power which i'm guessing Abreu did in Philly.

outside of defense..speaking offensively only, there are tons of better stats to measure a players true productivity.

like the stat i posted on page 2. EqA. it measures all offensive stats into 1. walks, Ks, hits, RBIs, SBs, CSs, etc. He ranks in the top 20 in all of baseball in this stat this year.

judging a player by BA and HRs are a thing of the past now.

PHINATIC13
08-21-2006, 06:19 PM
I'm a little confused by the Phillies, first they send away Abreu to the Yanks then trade for Moyer to make a push for the WC.:confused2

ChambersWI
08-21-2006, 07:11 PM
I'm a little confused by the Phillies, first they send away Abreu to the Yanks then trade for Moyer to make a push for the WC.:confused2

living in PA, I can tell you that management hated Abreu (felt he wasn't producing like he should, and they did have a point). However, they screwed themselves over because during the offseason they either asked for untouchable prospects (Billingsly and LaRoche) or they asked for an ace (Oswalt). They caved in to the Yanks, and did not get any top prospects.

Hell, originally the Phils wanted the Yanks to take Burrell as well (who had a great first month last year, but sucks otherwise), but the Yanks demanded Lidle.

If the Phils don't make the playoffs this year, the only players that won't be shopped are Howard,Utley,Hammels, and Victorino (they've been actively shopping Rowand and Dellucci)

Boik14
08-21-2006, 10:49 PM
Your just a mets fan who can't take off the rose colored glasses. Your just hatin on a guy who played for Philly and Yanks (the mets rivals) just because your a mets fan. The deal is when talking about the Top 10 ALL AROUND players in baseball (defense, offense, speed, arm)....the 5 tool guys.....Abreu is on that list still. Maybe not top of the list, but still on the list. Sorry to break it to ya. He might not be what he was in 2004, but he isnt that far off! :shakeno: Wow way to go. you prejudged me based on the fact im a mets fan...well newsflash, I happen to like the yanks as well, unlike many met fans. I happen to respect their tradition immensely because i love the game of baseball. Dont get me wrong, I like the mets far more but i want the yanks to win when they dont play the mets... so um yeah, there goes that theory.

As far as abreu being what he was from 98-04 hes been back to that level in the short time hes been a yankee but from the AS break 05 to the time he was dealt to NYY he was a slightly above average player. Far from top 10. His OPS was barely above average. Thanks for playing bro.

Roman529
08-22-2006, 12:33 AM
I am a lifelong Phillies fan. Last year they would have been the Wild Card in the playoffs but they could not beat the Houston Astros down the stretch, and neither could Greg Maddox on the the final day of the season for the Cubs, so my Phils finished a game back. :(

I think the Phils are solid offensively with Rollins, Rowand, Utley, Burrell and Howard. The starting pitching has always been iffy....but I think the Phils have a good shot to make it as a wild card this year.

MikeO
08-22-2006, 10:03 AM
Wow way to go. you prejudged me based on the fact im a mets fan...well newsflash, I happen to like the yanks as well, unlike many met fans. I happen to respect their tradition immensely because i love the game of baseball. Dont get me wrong, I like the mets far more but i want the yanks to win when they dont play the mets... so um yeah, there goes that theory.

As far as abreu being what he was from 98-04 hes been back to that level in the short time hes been a yankee but from the AS break 05 to the time he was dealt to NYY he was a slightly above average player. Far from top 10. His OPS was barely above average. Thanks for playing bro.

NO self respecting baseball fan can root for both the Yanks and the Mets. Sorry.

UCFinfan86
08-22-2006, 10:56 AM
NO self respecting baseball fan can root for both the Yanks and the Mets. Sorry.

sorry Biok but because MikeO says you can't root for Yanks and Mets you can't sorry.

My grandfather has been watching football since he was younger then me and hes been a diehard Patriots and Dolphisn fan the whole time.

Boik14
08-22-2006, 10:56 AM
NO self respecting baseball fan can root for both the Yanks and the Mets. Sorry.Thats an opinion I dont share with you. I like NY baseball teams. You dont need to agree and I dont care if you do or dont. :tongue:

RWhitney014
08-22-2006, 01:41 PM
It's not everything but when considering everyday players that is what the National Media bases players on. Which is why Andruw Jones wasn't MVP last year and David Ortiz most likely will be MVP this season. Their really is no stat to acknowledge defense especially for Outfielders. Maybe we could go with assists but then it makes it hard because we don't measure bad throws by OF's only the good ones right? Their is no way to tell what is an ordinary play for an OF to make and what is a great play. The best example I can use for this would be Andruw Jones who makes every defensive play look easy because of his talent yet an ordinary OF does not make some of those same plays. I would look up his RBI total during that time period but I am too lazy to do that right now.

Teams just mash now and average and homeruns are the easiest way to measure guys and correct me if i'm wrong who were hitting in spots that usually generate power which i'm guessing Abreu did in Philly.

Sometimes stats don't cover it all. But there's this thing called fielding percentage that should be high wherever you play, and Abreu's 2 errors this year have his at .991, 5th in the majors. Last year it was .984. The year before, .982. So on, so forth. He has 27 assists in 2004, 2005, and 2006. Andruw Jones has 24 in the same span, just for comparison's sake, since you brought it up.

Also, power isn't just measured in HR. Doubles and triples are an important part of it as well, and Abreu has 44 career triples and 367 career doubles, 29th-best and and 23rd-best respectively in the majors among active players, the main difference being that the majority of his competition is in the 37-42 range, while he's still just 32.

Bottom line, Bobby Abreu possesses a skill set not commonly found in the majors. Honestly, Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee, and Craig Biggio are similar kinds of players, despite the positional differences. Those are three very, very good players.

Metal Panda
08-22-2006, 05:25 PM
NO self respecting baseball fan can root for both the Yanks and the Mets. Sorry.

So sayeth the God of Baseball Fandom Rules.

djfresh47
08-23-2006, 01:22 AM
Sometimes stats don't cover it all. But there's this thing called fielding percentage that should be high wherever you play, and Abreu's 2 errors this year have his at .991, 5th in the majors. Last year it was .984. The year before, .982. So on, so forth. He has 27 assists in 2004, 2005, and 2006. Andruw Jones has 24 in the same span, just for comparison's sake, since you brought it up.

Also, power isn't just measured in HR. Doubles and triples are an important part of it as well, and Abreu has 44 career triples and 367 career doubles, 29th-best and and 23rd-best respectively in the majors among active players, the main difference being that the majority of his competition is in the 37-42 range, while he's still just 32.

Bottom line, Bobby Abreu possesses a skill set not commonly found in the majors. Honestly, Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee, and Craig Biggio are similar kinds of players, despite the positional differences. Those are three very, very good players.

.270 with 14 homeruns is a skill set not found often in the majors? Like I said earlier it's hard to measure defensive statistics even OF assists. Andruw Jones has a reputation and would that not change the mindset of a runner or coach if a ball is hit to him? Essentially limit his chances? He's 32 and on the downside although he's been great with the Yankees. You're going into his career and not looking into the player he is right now. This guy that you describe as a star is 55th in OPS and 97 in slugging. Sorry I don't see the hype about Bobby Abreu. He's had a good career but if the Yankees are to go far in the playoffs Lidle was a bigger pickup than Abreu.

MikeO
08-23-2006, 01:32 AM
.He's had a good career but if the Yankees are to go far in the playoffs Lidle was a bigger pickup than Abreu.

Lidell might not even see any action in the playoffs. I couldn't disagree more

Nappy Roots
08-23-2006, 01:35 AM
.270 with 14 homeruns is a skill set not found often in the majors? Like I said earlier it's hard to measure defensive statistics even OF assists. Andruw Jones has a reputation and would that not change the mindset of a runner or coach if a ball is hit to him? Essentially limit his chances? He's 32 and on the downside although he's been great with the Yankees. You're going into his career and not looking into the player he is right now. This guy that you describe as a star is 55th in OPS and 97 in slugging. Sorry I don't see the hype about Bobby Abreu. He's had a good career but if the Yankees are to go far in the playoffs Lidle was a bigger pickup than Abreu.



actually hes 31st in OPS...top 30 in the league is far from average.

djfresh47
08-23-2006, 01:46 AM
actually hes 31st in OPS...top 30 in the league is far from average.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/league_leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&section1=2&statSet1=2&sortByStat=OPS&statType=1&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2006&baseballScope=mlb&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true

54th I was wrong.

djfresh47
08-23-2006, 01:51 AM
Lidell might not even see any action in the playoffs. I couldn't disagree more

Pitching wins out and the Yankees are going to score runs regardless but their starting pitching is weak. The White Sox starting pitching has been awful but they score runs but they're not going anywhere without Buehrle and Contreras picking it up. Actually the best thing that could happen for the Yankees and White Sox is meeting each other in the 1st rd of the playoffs and just play 8-7 games cause neither team has the pitching. Pitching wins in the postseason which is why the teams to be feared IMO are the A's if they get Harden back and the Twins if Liriano comes back. Those are big if's but IMO good pitching wins out.

MikeO
08-23-2006, 10:23 AM
Pitching wins out and the Yankees are going to score runs regardless but their starting pitching is weak. The White Sox starting pitching has been awful but they score runs but they're not going anywhere without Buehrle and Contreras picking it up. Actually the best thing that could happen for the Yankees and White Sox is meeting each other in the 1st rd of the playoffs and just play 8-7 games cause neither team has the pitching. Pitching wins in the postseason which is why the teams to be feared IMO are the A's if they get Harden back and the Twins if Liriano comes back. Those are big if's but IMO good pitching wins out.

You missed the point completly. In the playoffs you only need 4 starters. Mussiana, Wang, Randy, and Wright. Liddel will get moved to the bullpen and be the long-reliever and probably never see any action.

Nappy Roots
08-23-2006, 10:44 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/league_leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&section1=2&statSet1=2&sortByStat=OPS&statType=1&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2006&baseballScope=mlb&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true

54th I was wrong.



thats wrong. add his OBP and SLG% up, you dont get 860, which is about average anyways.

Boik14
08-23-2006, 11:34 AM
Its funny how discussions about other teams somehow always end up being about the Yankees :lol:

RWhitney014
08-23-2006, 11:47 AM
.270 with 14 homeruns is a skill set not found often in the majors? Like I said earlier it's hard to measure defensive statistics even OF assists. Andruw Jones has a reputation and would that not change the mindset of a runner or coach if a ball is hit to him? Essentially limit his chances? He's 32 and on the downside although he's been great with the Yankees. You're going into his career and not looking into the player he is right now. This guy that you describe as a star is 55th in OPS and 97 in slugging. Sorry I don't see the hype about Bobby Abreu. He's had a good career but if the Yankees are to go far in the playoffs Lidle was a bigger pickup than Abreu.

Fine, you take Joe Crede, I'll take Bobby Abreu. Fair?

Honestly, man, you're combining stats from two different years. Unless you're looking at his body of work as a career, that's manipulating the stats. And for someone arguing that pitching is more important than offense, why would it matter if Abreu's home run totals are down if he's seeing so many pitches that he's wearing down the opposing pitching staff? I read that in the Boston series he saw 120-something pitches, and you wonder why the Sox had to shuffle their staff like a deck of cards all weekend?

MikeO
08-23-2006, 01:13 PM
Its funny how discussions about other teams somehow always end up being about the Yankees :lol:

lots of people have a 2nd city mentality. It's sad

MikeO
08-23-2006, 01:17 PM
Fine, you take Joe Crede, I'll take Bobby Abreu. Fair?

Honestly, man, you're combining stats from two different years. Unless you're looking at his body of work as a career, that's manipulating the stats. And for someone arguing that pitching is more important than offense, why would it matter if Abreu's home run totals are down if he's seeing so many pitches that he's wearing down the opposing pitching staff? I read that in the Boston series he saw 120-something pitches, and you wonder why the Sox had to shuffle their staff like a deck of cards all weekend?

in a sport where everyone is so one-dimensional Abreu is one of the Top 5-tool players left. And yet people find a way to bash him. It's unreal.

People just look at home runs and judge everything. It's so sad. Look deeper. SB attempts to caught stealing. His arm strength. His avg. Pitches he gets per at bat. Hitting the other way. Everything. The guy does everything.

Sure an Adam Dunn might hit 45+ home runs and drive in 130 but he will also hit .228 and lead the Majors in strike outs and hurt you in the field and not run at all. I would rather have Abreu over Dunn (just one example).

RWhitney014
08-23-2006, 02:10 PM
in a sport where everyone is so one-dimensional Abreu is one of the Top 5-tool players left. And yet people find a way to bash him. It's unreal.

People just look at home runs and judge everything. It's so sad. Look deeper. SB attempts to caught stealing. His arm strength. His avg. Pitches he gets per at bat. Hitting the other way. Everything. The guy does everything.

Sure an Adam Dunn might hit 45+ home runs and drive in 130 but he will also hit .228 and lead the Majors in strike outs and hurt you in the field and not run at all. I would rather have Abreu over Dunn (just one example).

That's the point I've been illustrating the whole time, Mike. For once, the planets have aligned and hell has frozen over, since you and I agree.

Fans have gotten so used to seeing guys hit 40-50 homers a year that they forget all the other stuff players do to be successful. Abreu is at least a plus, if not a big one, in just about every single facet of the game, and it goes much farther than just AVG/HR/RBI, even though his composite stats for those are sparkling.

He's just never won anything, although one could argue the teams around him haven't been wonderful. We'll see what happens if/when the Yankees make the playoffs.

MikeO
08-23-2006, 02:14 PM
He's just never won anything, although one could argue the teams around him haven't been wonderful. We'll see what happens if/when the Yankees make the playoffs.

nobody has won anything from that division the past decade because of Atlanta. And don't give me wild card because now you expect him to compete with every team in the national league (minus atlanta) for 1 playoff spot which is unrealistic to say the least!!!!!

Roman529
08-23-2006, 04:51 PM
Losing Rowand is going to hurt but adding Moyer is a good move. Cincy looks like they are playing great ball and are the front runner for the Wild Card if not the Division.

RWhitney014
08-23-2006, 07:14 PM
nobody has won anything from that division the past decade because of Atlanta. And don't give me wild card because now you expect him to compete with every team in the national league (minus atlanta) for 1 playoff spot which is unrealistic to say the least!!!!!

That's not true. When I talk of winning, I talk of winning it all, and Florida is the only team in the past 10 years in the National League East of the Mississippi to win the World Series.

djfresh47
08-23-2006, 08:32 PM
Fine, you take Joe Crede, I'll take Bobby Abreu. Fair?

Honestly, man, you're combining stats from two different years. Unless you're looking at his body of work as a career, that's manipulating the stats. And for someone arguing that pitching is more important than offense, why would it matter if Abreu's home run totals are down if he's seeing so many pitches that he's wearing down the opposing pitching staff? I read that in the Boston series he saw 120-something pitches, and you wonder why the Sox had to shuffle their staff like a deck of cards all weekend?

So I should go by what he has done his whole career? Forgetting the player he is now and go by the player he was before? Bobby Abreu can steal bases which is something that Crede doesn't do at all. Although one could argue that the risk for stealing a base is not worth the reward. That isn't relevant because Abreu is stealing bases at about 84% this season. If you're going to argue Abreu or Crede i'll just go by Crede is the most complete player on the White Sox and is playing as good as any 3rd basemen in all of baseball right now. I could go into his defense and argue he should win the gold glove but that award is a joke and has been since Tino Martinez got robbed of it by Palmeroid after he played 22 games. I'll get back to the original topic though...

Aaron Rowand is a pro's pro and losing him is a big blow for the Phillies. With the Phillies playing better funny how the Brett Myers altercation has left the national media. They've got a nice nucleus with Utley/J-Roll/Howard but it's hard to praise a team in the national league not named the Mets.