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dob72
08-24-2006, 03:08 AM
"We're making a lot, but we're spending more than we're making," Yankees general manager Brian Cashman told Bloomberg radio for a show to be aired this weekend. Cashman declined to say how much the Yankees are losing.
The Yankees, with Major League Baseball's highest payroll, added to their deficit before the July 31 non-waiver trading deadline, acquiring big-ticket addition Bobby Abreu (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5698). The team also acquired pitcher Cory Lidle (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5806) and utilityman Craig Wilson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6642).
The Yankees broke ground last week on a billion-dollar stadium scheduled to open in the Bronx in 2009.
Cashman told Bloomberg radio that the new stadium is "vital" to helping the Yankees return to profitability.
Forbes Magazine reported that the Yankees became the first MLB team to be worth more than $1 billion with a baseball-best $277 million in revenue.
However, Forbes said the Yankees lost $50 million last season because the team paid $77 million in revenue sharing. The New York Daily News also reported in December that the Yankees lost at least $50 million and possibly as much as $85 million last season.



this is accounting smoke and mirrors. Yes the New York Yankees Baseball Club loses money. YES Network which has nothing to do with Major League Baseball revenue sharing, gets a sweetheart deal with the Yankees. YES pays the Yankees pennies, that inbalance shows up as a loss on the Yankee Ledges.

Meanwhile YES makes a ton of cash. And who owns YES?

Slappy8800
08-24-2006, 03:18 AM
77mil is revenue sharing....i want to know what those teams who get that do with it...

ShuggieOtis
08-24-2006, 04:28 AM
wooo hooo DAAAA BRONX! Long live big stein! 50 mil?? Thats petty change!!!! YES network rules!

finfansince72
08-24-2006, 06:33 AM
Cashman is full of crap. The baseball owners have been crying poor for years to get public financing for stadiums, to justify ticket hikes, etc. The yanks are losing money but pull the trigger on the Abreu deal? Give me a break.

dob72
08-24-2006, 07:53 AM
wooo hooo DAAAA BRONX! Long live big stein! 50 mil?? Thats petty change!!!! YES network rules!
the bronx lives long in Phoenix huh lmfao

0000001
08-24-2006, 09:26 AM
Steinbrenner makes it up with his shipping business on the great lakes. Thats where his father made all their $.

MikeO
08-24-2006, 09:52 AM
This is old news once again. For years the Yanks have been operating in the red.

For about 4 or 5 years the Yankees (not YES or anything else, just the team itself) have been losing money. But the man wants to win, so he dumps every penny into THE TEAM!!!!!! The owners priority list has WINNING at the top. Something most owners don't have.

Ya spend money to make money!! If the team stunk then YES would lose money as well. This is how business works. This is the real world people!!!!

This is what the "yankee haters" don't understand. These teams that don't spend money will always stay where they are. Until you invest in your team, and your team wins, then you will stay stuck in the mud. Spend money on the players and get results then you start making money.

MikeO
08-24-2006, 09:54 AM
77mil is revenue sharing....i want to know what those teams who get that do with it...

Well in Cincy a couple years ago the owner took his share and made the cup holders in the stadium bigger!! :shakeno: (seriously its documented)

Which is a friggin joke on every level.

What big acquisition has KC made in the last decade because of the revenue sharing checks they get??? Exactly!!!

finfansince72
08-24-2006, 10:56 AM
This is old news once again. For years the Yanks have been operating in the red.

For about 4 or 5 years the Yankees (not YES or anything else, just the team itself) have been losing money. But the man wants to win, so he dumps every penny into THE TEAM!!!!!! The owners priority list has WINNING at the top. Something most owners don't have.

Ya spend money to make money!! If the team stunk then YES would lose money as well. This is how business works. This is the real world people!!!!

This is what the "yankee haters" don't understand. These teams that don't spend money will always stay where they are. Until you invest in your team, and your team wins, then you will stay stuck in the mud. Spend money on the players and get results then you start making money.

Easy to say that when you have the YES network to make up the difference. You can't be serious in the assertion that if the Royals or Brewers or the like spent 180million on payroll they'd see a benefit right? I mean thats totally insane, the owner would be filing bankruptcy in a year after losing 120 million.

DolfanDaveInATX
08-24-2006, 11:21 AM
What big acquisition has KC made in the last decade because of the revenue sharing checks they get??? Exactly!!!

They paid Reggie Sanders $10 million to bat cleanup. :goof:

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:26 AM
Easy to say that when you have the YES network to make up the difference. You can't be serious in the assertion that if the Royals or Brewers or the like spent 180million on payroll they'd see a benefit right? I mean thats totally insane, the owner would be filing bankruptcy in a year after losing 120 million.

No, maybe not 120 or 180.........but how about spending 90 mill? Or 75 mill? (and the YES network has only been around a couple years now, it hasn't been around since the begining of time)

This is business you gotta sell a hot product. If the team is good they will sell more tickets, more merch, and maybe work up to getting their own network. You can't sell a doormat product. Steinbrenner isn't anywhere NEAR the richest owner in baeball. That Twins guy is a friggin billionare. These owners want handouts. They don't want to build up a brand. Build up a business.

The reason the stadium for KC is empty is because the team stinks!!!! Your telling me if the Royals weren't in 1st place they wouldn't be selling out games? They won the world series in 1985 and played in front of a packed house every night. Your telling me everyone stopped watching?????? Spend some money and get your product better. Create a product people want to see. This is how the real world works!!!!

And the revenue sharing in general is just stupid. It's like McDonalds cutting a check to Burger King. Is it McDonalds fault that Burger King has less restuarants, less money to spend, and can do less things financially??? Should they be FORCED to cut a check to their competition because their competition is incompetent??????? The fact these billionare baseball owners are getting WELFARE from other owners is stupid and yet they still complain!!!

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:27 AM
They paid Reggie Sanders $10 million to bat cleanup. :goof:

I said big!

And if you consider that big that is a poor judgement and a poor use of $10 mill

UCFinfan86
08-24-2006, 11:34 AM
And the revenue sharing in general is just stupid. It's like McDonalds cutting a check to Burger King. Is it McDonalds fault that Burger King has less restuarants, less money to spend, and can do less things financially??? Should they be FORCED to cut a check to their competition because their competition is incompetent??????? The fact these billionare baseball owners are getting WELFARE from other owners is stupid and yet they still complain!!!

This isn't the fastfood market, this is a professional sports league. Now i dont blame Steinbrinner spending the money, i blame MLB for not having a salary cap like NFL.

dob72
08-24-2006, 11:57 AM
Do not attack another member in this community. If someone aggravates you, put them on ignore.


Easy to say that when you have the YES network to make up the difference. You can't be serious in the assertion that if the Royals or Brewers or the like spent 180million on payroll they'd see a benefit right? I mean thats totally insane, the owner would be filing bankruptcy in a year after losing 120 million.
its also easy to say when ur in the biggest market in sports {edit}

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:58 AM
This isn't the fastfood market, this is a professional sports league. Now i dont blame Steinbrinner spending the money, i blame MLB for not having a salary cap like NFL.

MLB is a business just like every other business. I understand why they do the revenue sharing aspect. Because the union wants that money to be spread so more teams can spend more and the players get richer. So I understand it from that perspective but it doesn't make it right. I think the owners are in for a fight next time around though. If MLB is doing a huge crackdown on steroids, the union will want something in return and making sure revenue sharing money is going where it is supposed to go (to the players) is one thing the union will go to the mat over.

and the salary cap..........never gonna happen in MLB. They say never say never, you can say NEVER on this one. NEVER!!!!!!!!

dob72
08-24-2006, 11:59 AM
This isn't the fastfood market, this is a professional sports league. Now i dont blame Steinbrinner spending the money, i blame MLB for not having a salary cap like NFL.
as you can see yankee fans don't look at baseball as a sport just a business to them

MikeO
08-24-2006, 12:00 PM
its also easy to say when ur in the biggest market in sports i don't even think mikeo believe's his own bs he'll say anything to try to defend the way the yankees do business

its not just the yankees. :shakeno: Why can't you comprehend that!! Its the Dodgers, Red Sox, Orioles, Mets, White Sox....etc. Put money into your product and everything else falls into place.

The Yankees do GOOD business. It doesn't need defending!!!! You have no point here. You are making no sense.

MikeO
08-24-2006, 12:01 PM
as you can see yankee fans don't look at baseball as a sport just a business to them

because its a business!!!!!!!! So is the NFL, NHL, NBA, NASCAR!!! It's all business. This isn't a CYO league.

dob72
08-24-2006, 12:07 PM
and the salary cap..........never gonna happen in MLB. They say never say never, you can say NEVER on this one. NEVER!!!!!!!!
it might have to when the yankees get there new stadium there payroll is gonna skyrocket to atleast 300 mill easy will see how long they will allow the yankees turning baseball into a joke

dob72
08-24-2006, 12:09 PM
The Yankees do GOOD business. It doesn't need defending!!!!
i'm sure u actully believe that to that to LMFAO

MikeO
08-24-2006, 12:10 PM
it might have to when the yankees get there new stadium there payroll is gonna skyrocket to atleast 300 mill easy will see how long they will allow the yankees turning baseball into a joke

no it won't. You can't really believe that!!!

djfresh47
08-24-2006, 02:14 PM
If the Yankees were doing good business wouldn't they be making money? I don't think teams need to be big spenders to be competitive. Look at the Oakland A's who are dependent upon their farm system and making good trades to be a playoff caliber team, which they are. They lost Mulder, Hudson, Damon, Dye, Tejada, Giambi, Foulke; and are still a very good team. How are the Royals going to bring in fans when their star attraction is Reggie Sanders? Do people really wanna watch Jimmy Gobble pitch? Teams do need to win to bring fans in look at the Detroit Tigers this year and the White Sox last year.

I have no problem with Steinbrenner trying to field the best baseball team as possible but MLB has to have the luxury tax or we're going to see the Yankees bring in every big name in baseball. One thing that I believe should be put into place is a salary cap floor. A minimum that all teams are required to spend to atleast make it look like teams are trying to be competitive.

djfresh47
08-24-2006, 02:19 PM
it might have to when the yankees get there new stadium there payroll is gonna skyrocket to atleast 300 mill easy will see how long they will allow the yankees turning baseball into a joke

If the Yankees were winning the World Series every year then i'd believe your arguement but it hasn't happened recently. They make the playoffs every year but so did the Braves for 15 straight and the Red Sox also seem to make it every year yet nobody complained about them. The Yankees are good for baseball because they play the role of the villain. Just look at their series vs the Red Sox in the playoffs the past few seasons. Everybody wants to see them play and unless you're a Yankees fan you're probably rooting for the Red Sox because fans are sympathetic to a team that is percieved as an underdog which the Red Sox were.

Motion
08-24-2006, 02:22 PM
as you can see yankee fans don't look at baseball as a sport just a business to them

All sports have a buisness side to them. To think they don't is just plain ignorance.

ShuggieOtis
08-24-2006, 03:34 PM
the bronx lives long in Phoenix huh lmfao

just because i moved to phx means i cant like the yankees and the bronx? I was born in jersey, but i feel like ive explained that enough on this board. i was just messing arond because i know everyone was going to diss the yankees and their management in this post. LMFAO!!!@!#$!@$%%@ was it that funny? The yankees always seem to incite the evil side of many people and its really discouraging to me and it is why i often do not post on this board anymore

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:36 PM
If the Yankees were doing good business wouldn't they be making money?

The ORGANIZATION as a whole is making billions. The team/players itself aspect of it isn't making money. Spend money to make money. If the team stinks, then the tv ratings stink, then YES brings in little to no reveneue. If the team is good, the tv ratings are good, then the team make a huge profit.

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:39 PM
One thing that I believe should be put into place is a salary cap floor. A minimum that all teams are required to spend to atleast make it look like teams are trying to be competitive.

If they brought in a salary cap floor you can kiss about 5-8 teams goodbye over the course of a few seasons.

Florida, Pittsburgh, Tampa, and KC right off the top of my head would no longer exist.

(mind you I agree with you about the salary cap floor. Add a salary cap floor before you add a ceiling. Im just saying in reailty it will be the end of about 5-8 teams and the Union won't let that happen)

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:39 PM
All sports have a buisness side to them. To think they don't is just plain ignorance.


look at who you are responding too!!

MikeO
08-24-2006, 11:41 PM
one final point. For those who WANT a salary cap, the best way to get it is to ROOT for the Yankees to win about 6 or 7 world series in a row. Because then, at some point, the other teams will band together to stop it and say enough is enough.

BUT, as long as the Yanks spend $200 mill on payroll, and DON'T win the world series, and STILL pay out a huge luxery tax.......you won't get a cap. Why would an owner in Cincy, KC, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Arizona...etc want a cap. When they can just sit back, watch NY spend a ton of money, LOSE, and then cut those teams a huge check. It's free money!!!!! Why would ANY OWNER want to put an end to that????????????

PressCoverage
08-24-2006, 11:48 PM
I love when the topic of soulless Yankee monopoly comes up here, because it allows me to post the best Onion sports story ever... So, without further ado:


<H2>Yankees Ensure 2003 Pennant By Signing Every Player In Baseball

February 5, 2003 | Issue 39•04 (http://www.theonion.com/content/index/3904) | Onion Sports (http://www.theonion.com/content/sports)
NEW YORK—With a week to go before pitchers and catchers report for spring training, the New York Yankees shored up their pitching, hitting, and defense Monday by signing every player in professional baseball.


Enlarge Image (javascript:void(0);)http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif Some of the New York Yankees' newest additions are introduced to the press.

"We'd like to welcome the entire roster of Major League Baseball into the Yankees family," said team owner George Steinbrenner, watching as the franchise's 928 newest additions held up their pinstripes at a Yankee Stadium press conference. "With these acquisitions, we are in position to finally nab that elusive 27th World Series title."

Sports reporters were not surprised by the move.

"This is not entirely unexpected," New York Times baseball writer Murray Chass said. "When the Yankees followed up their signing of Japanese slugger Hideki 'Godzilla' Matsui by annexing Cuba for use as a Triple-A farm club, it was clear that Steinbrenner was willing to do whatever it takes to win."
By noon, Yankees GM Brian Cashman had signed the entire National League and most of the American League to multi-year contracts. Some 10 hours later, the final opposing player, Texas Rangers shortstop Alex Rodriguez, had been acquired by the Yankees, who bought out the remainder of his $252 million contract for $300 million.

"It's an honor to be part of this team," said catcher Benito Santiago, picked up from the San Francisco Giants as insurance in case catchers Jorge Posada, Ivan Rodriguez, and Mike Piazza all go down with injuries. "It's a surprise, certainly, but I'd be crazy to turn down the opportunity to play on what is, by default, the greatest team in baseball."

Yankees manager Joe Torre, whose pitching rotation, prior to the mass signing, lacked a clear seventh ace, now has the luxury of starting each of his hurlers twice a season.

"As they say, you can never have enough pitching in this league," Torre said. "Especially come playoff time. Now, if we make it to the World Series, we'll be able to start Pedro Martinez in Game 1 and still have him fresh and ready to go for a Game 287, should it be necessary."

With so many egos to juggle and so many personnel decisions to make, Torre said his job will actually be harder this season, the lack of opposing players notwithstanding
. </H2>

djfresh47
08-24-2006, 11:57 PM
If they brought in a salary cap floor you can kiss about 5-8 teams goodbye over the course of a few seasons.

Florida, Pittsburgh, Tampa, and KC right off the top of my head would no longer exist.

(mind you I agree with you about the salary cap floor. Add a salary cap floor before you add a ceiling. Im just saying in reailty it will be the end of about 5-8 teams and the Union won't let that happen)

I don't think cutting down a few teams would be the worse thing to happen to baseball. It would actually make a better product and take a bunch of players out of the league that have no business being on a major league roster anyways. KC is fielding a double-a team anyways what's the difference if they get rid of them or not? It takes a special kind of team to go up ten runs and lose. The Yankees are good for baseball and they haven't won the World Series in about 5 years or so, so I don't get the whining about them spending money. If A-Rod would've been traded to Boston nobody would complain about them spending money.

Ray Finkle
08-25-2006, 12:04 AM
I don't think cutting down a few teams would be the worse thing to happen to baseball. It would actually make a better product and take a bunch of players out of the league that have no business being on a major league roster anyways. KC is fielding a double-a team anyways what's the difference if they get rid of them or not? It takes a special kind of team to go up ten runs and lose. The Yankees are good for baseball and they haven't won the World Series in about 5 years or so, so I don't get the whining about them spending money. If A-Rod would've been traded to Boston nobody would complain about them spending money.

Oh I agree with both you and MikeO. MLB needs a floor, its pathetic how KC's biggest signing was Doug Minetktkjdakjkwhtwitz and Reggie Sanders this off season, Tampa Bay has some good young hitting but are too cheap to throw big money at big name FA pitchers (ala The Rockies in 2001 when they signed Mike Hampton and Denny Neagle). Cutting 2 teams (probably KC and Tampa Bay) would be a good idea because then you'll see even more teams in playoff races down the strench.

And yes the Yankees are good for baseball. They're the biggest draw both at home and on the road. The sold over 4 million tickets this year at home and everytime the Yankees are on the road the game is a near sell out. Plus they pump money back into the small market teams who don't spend any money.

djfresh47
08-25-2006, 12:10 AM
Isn't this going to be the 1st year in a long time that Reggie Sanders has not made the playoffs? I thought I heard something about him always being in the postseason. Casual fans don't want to watch Detroit/Chicago they want to watch Boston/NYY. Their is no gray area with the Yankees you either love them or you hate them but regardless most people will watch them in the postseason with a rooting interest. A Red Sox/Yankees playoff series is more memorable than the World Series. We remember Aaron Boone hitting a walk-off homerun but forget that the Marlins were the best team that year.

MikeO
08-25-2006, 01:33 AM
The union will NEVER let teams to get reduced.

The Yankees and Notre Dame are the ONLY teams in sports that you love or hate. And I have no problems with the haters........just don't be stupid. Don't say their payroll will be $300 mill. Or they are bad for baseball. Or they are ruining the sport.

Please. Hate them, but live in reality and don't make stuff up just because!

Amars
08-25-2006, 02:18 AM
I really doubt he's lossing money

finfansince72
08-25-2006, 05:04 AM
No, maybe not 120 or 180.........but how about spending 90 mill? Or 75 mill? (and the YES network has only been around a couple years now, it hasn't been around since the begining of time)

This is business you gotta sell a hot product. If the team is good they will sell more tickets, more merch, and maybe work up to getting their own network. You can't sell a doormat product. Steinbrenner isn't anywhere NEAR the richest owner in baeball. That Twins guy is a friggin billionare. These owners want handouts. They don't want to build up a brand. Build up a business.

The reason the stadium for KC is empty is because the team stinks!!!! Your telling me if the Royals weren't in 1st place they wouldn't be selling out games? They won the world series in 1985 and played in front of a packed house every night. Your telling me everyone stopped watching?????? Spend some money and get your product better. Create a product people want to see. This is how the real world works!!!!

And the revenue sharing in general is just stupid. It's like McDonalds cutting a check to Burger King. Is it McDonalds fault that Burger King has less restuarants, less money to spend, and can do less things financially??? Should they be FORCED to cut a check to their competition because their competition is incompetent??????? The fact these billionare baseball owners are getting WELFARE from other owners is stupid and yet they still complain!!!

LOL. Ok the Royals should spend 90mil. Guess what? They would still suck and would still have no shot at the Yanks or the higher end teams They would end up losing like 50 million or more and be bankrupt. Brillant! Wonder why the owner hasnt done this. Econ 101 would do you some bigtime help.
Im a Red Sox fan, we are part of the problem too. The big market teams create payrolls that are so large there is no way for smaller market teams to stay consistantly in the running for a title. Some of them produce great minor league rosters, have a run or two with young studs then fade away. Its not a coincidence that the Sox, Yanks, etc are in the running every year. No one wanted to touch Arods, Abreus', etc salaries yet the Yanks will take on all of them at once. Gee I wonder why?
Hiliarous to blame the smaller market owners for not wanting to bankrupt themselves and their teams. Too much man. This thread is just funny. The problem isnt market disparity, no salary cap and poor revenue sharing, its the fact that the lower end teams wont go bankrupt or loss tens of millions to finish in 4th place instead of last. LOL.

djfresh47
08-25-2006, 08:14 PM
LOL. Ok the Royals should spend 90mil. Guess what? They would still suck and would still have no shot at the Yanks or the higher end teams They would end up losing like 50 million or more and be bankrupt. Brillant! Wonder why the owner hasnt done this. Econ 101 would do you some bigtime help.
Im a Red Sox fan, we are part of the problem too. The big market teams create payrolls that are so large there is no way for smaller market teams to stay consistantly in the running for a title. Some of them produce great minor league rosters, have a run or two with young studs then fade away. Its not a coincidence that the Sox, Yanks, etc are in the running every year. No one wanted to touch Arods, Abreus', etc salaries yet the Yanks will take on all of them at once. Gee I wonder why?
Hiliarous to blame the smaller market owners for not wanting to bankrupt themselves and their teams. Too much man. This thread is just funny. The problem isnt market disparity, no salary cap and poor revenue sharing, its the fact that the lower end teams wont go bankrupt or loss tens of millions to finish in 4th place instead of last. LOL.


The Oakland A's have a payroll of about 63 million and are a 1st place baseball team the Twins have about the same payroll and are a 1/2 game out of the WC going into tonight; while the Mariners have a payroll close to 90 million and are a bad team. Saying teams can't compete while big market teams spending more cash is false. I'll say this about small markets and that is they need to have a good GM, look at what Ryan and Beane have done for their respected teams. A.J. Pierzynski was traded for Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser! I love Pierzynski and his attitude that he brings to the White Sox but Brian Sabean should be fired on principle for that trade!

PressCoverage
08-25-2006, 09:05 PM
more Yankee love, from the Onion:

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Ray Finkle
08-25-2006, 09:32 PM
more Yankee love, from the Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/New-Yankee-Stadium.article.jpg

:lol:

I'm sorry but even Yankee fans so get a kick out of that. I think some of them are pretty funny.

unifiedtheory
08-25-2006, 10:08 PM
The Oakland A's have a payroll of about 63 million and are a 1st place baseball team the Twins have about the same payroll and are a 1/2 game out of the WC going into tonight; while the Mariners have a payroll close to 90 million and are a bad team. Saying teams can't compete while big market teams spending more cash is false. I'll say this about small markets and that is they need to have a good GM, look at what Ryan and Beane have done for their respected teams. A.J. Pierzynski was traded for Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser! I love Pierzynski and his attitude that he brings to the White Sox but Brian Sabean should be fired on principle for that trade!
I'm a life long Oakland A's fan. I'm not going to argue the Yankee's point because I'll just get judged for my so called "2nd city mentality". An arguement I've had and do not want to waste my time on again...

I think the Yankees are good for baseball...to a point. The fact that they are basically in their own league is a little annoying but tolerable. If they had won the last 6 World championships it would be a total joke but that is not the case...

You have to look at what the A's have to do every year to stay in contention. I'll start off by saying I'm damn proud of the job Billy Beane does. He works with his shoe string budget, fills a few holes here and there and relies on very shrewd trades and smart drafting to reload the system with players.

That being said, it takes a TON of luck to do what he does. You have to hope that injuries don't cripple you (the A's have been killed by injuries up and down their entire organization this year). Yes, they are still in 1st place but believe me, the injuries they suffered to their minor leaguers will be felt in 2-3 years. They can't spend their way out of that like some teams can (it is not just the Yankees). They need their young players to stay healthy and be ready to take spots vacated by players that can't be kept.

Look at what the A's would have IF baseball had some sort of financial sanity? I don't like seeing Beane forced into trading Hudson or Mulder or letting Miggy walk but he has to. With the A's stadium situation and local market he does'nt have the rescources to keep players.

I'd do the Mulder trade 1,000,000,000 times over but it still stung at the time (Haren, Kalero and Barton in return...great deal in my opinion).

This upcoming offseason the circle begins again. Barry Zito will get a 15 million dollar a year contract offer from someone, an offer the A's have zero hope of matching if they want to remain viable and competative, he'll walk and I'll have to hope that Harden stays healthy and Haren and Blanton continue to ascend.

I've learned to like it in a sadistic kind of way...:lol: That being said, teams like the A's and the Twins are the EXCEPTION...not the rule.

There is no real cure for it all. There will always be, in my opinion, 3 classes of MLB franchises. It's almost to the point where there should be divisions, like Euro soccer.

Some teams are tapped out and will probably never get better. (KC, Tampa)

Some teams are smartly managed and as long as they keep their management teams together they will remain in the hunt. (Twins, A's)

Some teams have a ton of cash, spend it like drunken sailors and are just stupid (Baltimore, Cubs)

Some teams have a ton of cash, do smart things and have the luxery of spending their way out of trouble. (Yankees, BoSox).

I'd love to see a salary cap system but, and I've said this 1,000 times and MikeO said it as well, there HAS to be a floor put in place. Temas like Tampa, KC and Florida should not be able to profit from other teams while doing nothing to improve the product on the field.

Retraction is almost needed. Some teams need to be taken apart, never to be seen again.

BTW....Go A's!

UCFinfan86
08-26-2006, 12:00 AM
I'm a life long Oakland A's fan. I'm not going to argue the Yankee's point because I'll just get judged for my so called "2nd city mentality". An arguement I've had and do not want to waste my time on again...

I think the Yankees are good for baseball...to a point. The fact that they are basically in their own league is a little annoying but tolerable. If they had won the last 6 World championships it would be a total joke but that is not the case...

You have to look at what the A's have to do every year to stay in contention. I'll start off by saying I'm damn proud of the job Billy Beane does. He works with his shoe string budget, fills a few holes here and there and relies on very shrewd trades and smart drafting to reload the system with players.

That being said, it takes a TON of luck to do what he does. You have to hope that injuries don't cripple you (the A's have been killed by injuries up and down their entire organization this year). Yes, they are still in 1st place but believe me, the injuries they suffered to their minor leaguers will be felt in 2-3 years. They can't spend their way out of that like some teams can (it is not just the Yankees). They need their young players to stay healthy and be ready to take spots vacated by players that can't be kept.

Look at what the A's would have IF baseball had some sort of financial sanity? I don't like seeing Beane forced into trading Hudson or Mulder or letting Miggy walk but he has to. With the A's stadium situation and local market he does'nt have the rescources to keep players.

I'd do the Mulder trade 1,000,000,000 times over but it still stung at the time (Haren, Kalero and Barton in return...great deal in my opinion).

This upcoming offseason the circle begins again. Barry Zito will get a 15 million dollar a year contract offer from someone, an offer the A's have zero hope of matching if they want to remain viable and competative, he'll walk and I'll have to hope that Harden stays healthy and Haren and Blanton continue to ascend.

I've learned to like it in a sadistic kind of way...:lol: That being said, teams like the A's and the Twins are the EXCEPTION...not the rule.

There is no real cure for it all. There will always be, in my opinion, 3 classes of MLB franchises. It's almost to the point where there should be divisions, like Euro soccer.

Some teams are tapped out and will probably never get better. (KC, Tampa)

Some teams are smartly managed and as long as they keep their management teams together they will remain in the hunt. (Twins, A's)

Some teams have a ton of cash, spend it like drunken sailors and are just stupid (Baltimore, Cubs)

Some teams have a ton of cash, do smart things and have the luxery of spending their way out of trouble. (Yankees, BoSox).

I'd love to see a salary cap system but, and I've said this 1,000 times and MikeO said it as well, there HAS to be a floor put in place. Temas like Tampa, KC and Florida should not be able to profit from other teams while doing nothing to improve the product on the field.

Retraction is almost needed. Some teams need to be taken apart, never to be seen again.

BTW....Go A's!

good post

Alex44
08-26-2006, 12:06 AM
I don't think cutting down a few teams would be the worse thing to happen to baseball. It would actually make a better product and take a bunch of players out of the league that have no business being on a major league roster anyways. KC is fielding a double-a team anyways what's the difference if they get rid of them or not? It takes a special kind of team to go up ten runs and lose. The Yankees are good for baseball and they haven't won the World Series in about 5 years or so, so I don't get the whining about them spending money. If A-Rod would've been traded to Boston nobody would complain about them spending money.

What about the people with businesses around the stadium that maybe get a few more customers on gameday? What about the fans that care about the team? What about the players that even if they arent top notch this is how they feed their family

IMO baseball is fine the way it is, it doesnt need a cap or a floor, What has unlimited spending done for the Yankees lately? Not much

MikeO
08-26-2006, 12:28 AM
I'd love to see a salary cap system but, and I've said this 1,000 times and MikeO said it as well, there HAS to be a floor put in place. Temas like Tampa, KC and Florida should not be able to profit from other teams while doing nothing to improve the product on the field.

Retraction is almost needed. Some teams need to be taken apart, never to be seen again.

BTW....Go A's!

2 things.....

1) The union will nver let retraction take place. The union took a big hit (maybe their only hit ever in their history) with Steroid testing. IF you think they will EVER let a team or two close shop and lose jobs for a bunch of players your nuts. It won't happen now or ever.

2) The union might push for a salary cap floor though at some point. Becuase teams like the Marlins, Pirates, Royals, Tampa..........its patheitc on every level. They will put pressure on the owners to put in a floor and MAKE these teams spend money or else force the current owners to sell them off!! The problem with the competitive balance isnt' at the top. I mean if you have a $120 mill payroll or a $200 mill payroll its esentially the same. At some point its a gluten and there is no difference. If your payroll is $80 mill and another is $198 mill, those are equal (sounds stupid but thats the way MOST teams view it). The problem is with the $20 mill payrolls and the $35 mill payrolls. The competitive balance problem isnt' at the top, its at the bottom. You can't make the successful teams cater to the poor teams or
the incompetent teams.

MikeO
08-26-2006, 12:30 AM
What about the people with businesses around the stadium that maybe get a few more customers on gameday? What about the fans that care about the team? What about the players that even if they arent top notch this is how they feed their family




Life isn't fair. Business is cut throat. What you wrote could be applied in all aspects of life. Why is FORD and GM doing layoffs. Is it fair to the workers or the cities those plants are in? I mean sometimes things happen. Companies go under. People are out in the cold. It sucks, but hey......we can't continue doing welfare for billionare owners. It's just wrong on so many levels.

finfansince72
08-26-2006, 02:30 AM
The Oakland A's have a payroll of about 63 million and are a 1st place baseball team the Twins have about the same payroll and are a 1/2 game out of the WC going into tonight; while the Mariners have a payroll close to 90 million and are a bad team. Saying teams can't compete while big market teams spending more cash is false. I'll say this about small markets and that is they need to have a good GM, look at what Ryan and Beane have done for their respected teams. A.J. Pierzynski was traded for Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser! I love Pierzynski and his attitude that he brings to the White Sox but Brian Sabean should be fired on principle for that trade!

The As and the Twins will get beat in the playoffs again. You can 'compete' with lower payrolls, but you will not compete year in and year out and when the Yanks, Sox, etc are nearing 200million all you can do is hope to win a playoff series.
Last ten years the only "small" market teams" to win a World Series-Florida and Arizona. NY Yanks-4times, 4 in 5 years. They have choked in recent years but they do have more talent than any other team. Even with key injuries they just go out and trade for/buy new players. How would the Twins or A's be doing if two or 3 bigtime players on their team were gone for the year?
Baseballs system is messed up, how anyone can even with a straightface watch the sport get passed by the likes of Nascar and act as though its in great shape is just being silly. Baseball is a 2nd rate American sport, thats a tragedy. Most fans just dont care about it. Why should they? Their team has no shot. Bringing up two teams like the As and Twins who make solid runs only to be passed by teams with stacked payrolls isnt making a point.
Baseball sucks right now for like 80% of the league, knowing they have no legit shot.

unifiedtheory
08-26-2006, 02:01 PM
The As and the Twins will get beat in the playoffs again. You can 'compete' with lower payrolls, but you will not compete year in and year out and when the Yanks, Sox, etc are nearing 200million all you can do is hope to win a playoff series.
Last ten years the only "small" market teams" to win a World Series-Florida and Arizona. NY Yanks-4times, 4 in 5 years. They have choked in recent years but they do have more talent than any other team. Even with key injuries they just go out and trade for/buy new players. How would the Twins or A's be doing if two or 3 bigtime players on their team were gone for the year?
Baseballs system is messed up, how anyone can even with a straightface watch the sport get passed by the likes of Nascar and act as though its in great shape is just being silly. Baseball is a 2nd rate American sport, thats a tragedy. Most fans just dont care about it. Why should they? Their team has no shot. Bringing up two teams like the As and Twins who make solid runs only to be passed by teams with stacked payrolls isnt making a point.
Baseball sucks right now for like 80% of the league, knowing they have no legit shot.

The A's teams that have lost in the playoffs in the past 5 years are totally different then THIS A's team. This A's team is much better in the field and has a much better bullpen.

With the A's pitching I give them a more then legit shot against any team in the American League (if they make the playoffs).

Ray Finkle
08-26-2006, 02:25 PM
The A's teams that have lost in the playoffs in the past 5 years are totally different then THIS A's team. This A's team is much better in the field and has a much better bullpen.

With the A's pitching I give them a more then legit shot against any team in the American League (if they make the playoffs).

If Harden comes back to full health then I agree. However their starting pitching is good but totally inconsistent. Blanton and Haren have good starts every other time out, sandwiched with bad ones. Zito has been both very good and very bad and Loaiza is a non factor because he wouldn't be in the rotation if Harden is healthy.

Street and Dusch haven't been as good this year mainly due to injuries.

The A's have pitching issues as much as everyone else, but if their starters are on, then they'll be tough to beat. The problem is their bats which aren't very good especially with Chavez being a non existent and Crosby being hurt.

MikeO
08-26-2006, 02:48 PM
The A's teams that have lost in the playoffs in the past 5 years are totally different then THIS A's team. This A's team is much better in the field and has a much better bullpen.

With the A's pitching I give them a more then legit shot against any team in the American League (if they make the playoffs).

1) This A's team is no different

2) The A's pitching is always better than most of the pitching other teams in the AL and yet they still spit it up in the playoffs.

Until this team proves me wrong, I still view them as a team that rolls over and plays dead come October. NY beats them like a drum every time. You better pray that Boston doesn't win the wild card or else in Round 1 its NY-Oakland.

Ray Finkle
08-26-2006, 03:20 PM
1) This A's team is no different

2) The A's pitching is always better than most of the pitching other teams in the AL and yet they still spit it up in the playoffs.

Until this team proves me wrong, I still view them as a team that rolls over and plays dead come October. NY beats them like a drum every time. You better pray that Boston doesn't win the wild card or else in Round 1 its NY-Oakland.

How is the A's team no different? They only have 3 main guys (Chavez, Harden and Zito) from the choke years. Gone are the Foulkes, Giambis, Tejedas, Hudsons, Mulders, Isringhausens, and Billy Kochs of the team.

This is a totally different team.

You can't say that the A's are the same team when they have about over 20 different players since 2004. And using the logic that the A's have always choked recently then how come you picked the Chicago White Sox to win it last year when they have choked since 1919? You simply can't use that logic when the team is totally different.

Another example would be the Yankees which basically have the same core of guys since 2003 and haven't won anything and totally underachieved. How could they be the favorites then if they choked in the playoffs?

djfresh47
08-26-2006, 03:24 PM
The As and the Twins will get beat in the playoffs again. You can 'compete' with lower payrolls, but you will not compete year in and year out and when the Yanks, Sox, etc are nearing 200million all you can do is hope to win a playoff series.
Last ten years the only "small" market teams" to win a World Series-Florida and Arizona. NY Yanks-4times, 4 in 5 years. They have choked in recent years but they do have more talent than any other team. Even with key injuries they just go out and trade for/buy new players. How would the Twins or A's be doing if two or 3 bigtime players on their team were gone for the year?
Baseballs system is messed up, how anyone can even with a straightface watch the sport get passed by the likes of Nascar and act as though its in great shape is just being silly. Baseball is a 2nd rate American sport, thats a tragedy. Most fans just dont care about it. Why should they? Their team has no shot. Bringing up two teams like the As and Twins who make solid runs only to be passed by teams with stacked payrolls isnt making a point.
Baseball sucks right now for like 80% of the league, knowing they have no legit shot.

How would any team do if two or three big time players were gone for the year? Take Konerko and Dye off of the White Sox or Manny and Ortiz off of the Red Sox and those teams are bad. In a 5 game series I don't think any team wants to face the A's if Harden returns or the Twins if Liriano returns. I'm not going to fault Steinbrenner for wanting to win.

To the post that Unified made. I don't think the A's success is luck I believe Billy Beane is the best GM in baseball and changed the thinking of the A's organization around which has been successful. I'm not sure but I actually seen that they took a high school player in the 1st rd this year or last which goes against his whole thinking. DePodesta failed as a GM but I think he'll get another opportunity and I like what Riccardi is doing with the Blue Jays although his first line of business should be getting rid of Gibbons. Although if he has the same mind set as Beane than the manager is just a puppet in the dugout.

unifiedtheory
08-26-2006, 03:27 PM
If Harden comes back to full health then I agree. However their starting pitching is good but totally inconsistent. Blanton and Haren have good starts every other time out, sandwiched with bad ones. Zito has been both very good and very bad and Loaiza is a non factor because he wouldn't be in the rotation if Harden is healthy.

Street and Dusch haven't been as good this year mainly due to injuries.

The A's have pitching issues as much as everyone else, but if their starters are on, then they'll be tough to beat. The problem is their bats which aren't very good especially with Chavez being a non existent and Crosby being hurt.
Even when Harden is back he'll be in the bullpen. I don't see him starting another game this year. He has a bullpen session next week but there won't be time to get him healthy and then stretch him out before the playoffs. They have stated a few times they are not going to push him. They let him judge when he was ready earlier in the year and it was a disaster.

The staff inconsistency is alarming at times. One day Joe Blanton looks all world and then next day he get bombed for 8 runs. Haren is the same but to a lesser degree. His start last week against Toronto was his first "bad" start in about a month and a half.

Zito has been good most of the year though.

Street and Dusch have been alright but in and out with injuries. They've missed Kennedy and Witasick though and they should be in good form by playoffs time (if the A's make it).

The bats are....well....getting better. Bradley has been great since coming off the DL, Frank is driving in runs and J.K. has been on fire the last few weeks. Even Chavvy is improving (he's been hurt). The key is Swisher. He got sick and lost weight so his numbers took a dive for about a month and a half but he's been quite good the last few weeks. Crosby went back on the DL today...

I dunno....I agree and disagree...LOL. I feel alright about their chances though. with all the injuries they've had I'm just happy they in a race to be honest.

unifiedtheory
08-26-2006, 03:41 PM
1) This A's team is no different

2) The A's pitching is always better than most of the pitching other teams in the AL and yet they still spit it up in the playoffs.

Until this team proves me wrong, I still view them as a team that rolls over and plays dead come October. NY beats them like a drum every time. You better pray that Boston doesn't win the wild card or else in Round 1 its NY-Oakland.
No different?

The remaining members of the A's team that lost in the playoffs the last time they made it: 3

Zito, Harden and Chavez....that is all. Harden was a role player at that time. Zito has always played well in the playoffs and Chavvy had'nt yet come into his own.

Is Billy Koch on this team still to allow game winning homers? How about Foulke? Is Hudson here to crap the bed? Mulder? The players responsible for the "choke" years aren't here anymore.

I don't know about rolling over and playing dead in the playoffs. Yes, they blew leads but they took the Yankees and the Sox to the full five games in their previous meetings. Playing dead, in my opinion, is getting your *** swept out...

I HOPE the A's play the Yankees in the first round. I relish the opportunity to face that prehistoric starting staff and the Yankees gas can of a bullpen.

When you change the entire face and heart of a team you can not classify them as "chokers". This team has yet to make the playoffs. I repeat THIS team has yet to make the playoffs. IFFFFFFFFFF they make the playoffs this year and IFFFFFFF they blow a 2 game lead in the playoffs THEN you can call them chokers.

Until that happens your argument is ridiculous and baseless. This is deja-vu. Anytime I'm in a thread and the A's come up you beat the same damn drum.

I know I won't win this argument with you because of your total lack of objectivity on anything that disagrees with your narrow point of view.

Ray Finkle
08-26-2006, 03:47 PM
Even when Harden is back he'll be in the bullpen. I don't see him starting another game this year. He has a bullpen session next week but there won't be time to get him healthy and then stretch him out before the playoffs. They have stated a few times they are not going to push him. They let him judge when he was ready earlier in the year and it was a disaster.

The staff inconsistency is alarming at times. One day Joe Blanton looks all world and then next day he get bombed for 8 runs. Haren is the same but to a lesser degree. His start last week against Toronto was his first "bad" start in about a month and a half.

Zito has been good most of the year though.

Street and Dusch have been alright but in and out with injuries. They've missed Kennedy and Witasick though and they should be in good form by playoffs time (if the A's make it).

The bats are....well....getting better. Bradley has been great since coming off the DL, Frank is driving in runs and J.K. has been on fire the last few weeks. Even Chavvy is improving (he's been hurt). The key is Swisher. He got sick and lost weight so his numbers took a dive for about a month and a half but he's been quite good the last few weeks. Crosby went back on the DL today...

I dunno....I agree and disagree...LOL. I feel alright about their chances though. with all the injuries they've had I'm just happy they in a race to be honest.

Hey I'm one of the biggest A's supporters around. I think they have a great pitching staff when they're on and healthy both in the rotation and in the pen. I wouldn't count the A's out by any means.

I was just pointing out their flaws, which every single team in baseball has.

unifiedtheory
08-26-2006, 03:49 PM
Hey I'm one of the biggest A's supporters around. I think they have a great pitching staff when they're on and healthy both in the rotation and in the pen. I wouldn't count the A's out by any means.

I was just pointing out their flaws, which every single team in baseball has.
And I totally agree with your entire analysis. At least your'e not calling them "chokers".

I ask again (not you)...how can a team be "chokers" when the entire team has changed? It boggles my mind.

unifiedtheory
08-26-2006, 03:51 PM
How would any team do if two or three big time players were gone for the year? Take Konerko and Dye off of the White Sox or Manny and Ortiz off of the Red Sox and those teams are bad. In a 5 game series I don't think any team wants to face the A's if Harden returns or the Twins if Liriano returns. I'm not going to fault Steinbrenner for wanting to win.

To the post that Unified made. I don't think the A's success is luck I believe Billy Beane is the best GM in baseball and changed the thinking of the A's organization around which has been successful. I'm not sure but I actually seen that they took a high school player in the 1st rd this year or last which goes against his whole thinking. DePodesta failed as a GM but I think he'll get another opportunity and I like what Riccardi is doing with the Blue Jays although his first line of business should be getting rid of Gibbons. Although if he has the same mind set as Beane than the manager is just a puppet in the dugout.

If Soriano comes back and the Twins make the playoffs they win their first round series.

Soriano and Santana in a short series? YUCK!

Ray Finkle
08-26-2006, 04:00 PM
And I totally agree with your entire analysis. At least your'e not calling them "chokers".

I ask again (not you)...how can a team be "chokers" when the entire team has changed? It boggles my mind.

Oh I wasn't trying to put down the A's at all.

And I agree with your analysis about how they shouldn't be labeled chokers. A team of 22 new guys can't be labeled chokers when they never played in a playoff game or series together.

Ray Finkle
08-26-2006, 04:01 PM
If Soriano comes back and the Twins make the playoffs they win their first round series.

Soriano and Santana in a short series? YUCK!

It's Liriano not Soriano :wink:

But I know what you mean.

King Felix
08-26-2006, 04:22 PM
if there was one team i wouldnt want to play in the playoffs in AL it would be minnesota.............espicially if liriano does come back.....i dont know his status

unifiedtheory
08-26-2006, 04:26 PM
It's Liriano not Soriano :wink:

But I know what you mean.

Damn it...:sidelol:

djfresh47
08-26-2006, 08:57 PM
If Soriano comes back and the Twins make the playoffs they win their first round series.

Soriano and Santana in a short series? YUCK!

Santana has struggled in the postseason though I would not want to face them. Especially in the metrodome.

dob72
08-29-2006, 12:46 PM
I mean if you have a $120 mill payroll or a $200 mill payroll its esentially the same
um actully its not 80 mill more is a huge diffrence

MikeO
08-29-2006, 01:29 PM
um actully its not 80 mill more is a huge diffrence

Took ya 3 days to come up with that response :shakeno: :sidelol:

dob72
08-31-2006, 04:27 PM
Took ya 3 days to come up with that response :shakeno: :sidelol:
i didn't read ur post but i saw that line and thought wow what a moron the difference between the Red Sox/Mets payroll and the Yankees is greater than the difference between the Red Sox/Mets payroll and the Royals.

dob72
08-31-2006, 04:30 PM
The As and the Twins will get beat in the playoffs again. You can 'compete' with lower payrolls, but you will not compete year in and year out and when the Yanks, Sox, etc are nearing 200million all you can do is hope to win a playoff series.
Last ten years the only "small" market teams" to win a World Series-Florida and Arizona. NY Yanks-4times, 4 in 5 years. They have choked in recent years but they do have more talent than any other team. Even with key injuries they just go out and trade for/buy new players. How would the Twins or A's be doing if two or 3 bigtime players on their team were gone for the year?
Baseballs system is messed up, how anyone can even with a straightface watch the sport get passed by the likes of Nascar and act as though its in great shape is just being silly. Baseball is a 2nd rate American sport, thats a tragedy. Most fans just dont care about it. Why should they? Their team has no shot. Bringing up two teams like the As and Twins who make solid runs only to be passed by teams with stacked payrolls isnt making a point.
Baseball sucks right now for like 80% of the league, knowing they have no legit shot.
good point

The problem is more than just salary cap

there should also be a low cap limit...like a limit to how little teams can pay

teams like the Pirates, Royals, Devil Rays, Brewers consistantly spend way too little to even dream of really competing...it's ridiculous to hope for anyone in those cities to care about the sport when their team doesn't even care or try to put a winning product on the field

plus anyone that argues that revenue sharing **** isn't getting the point...just because a team gets a few million doesn't mean they can suddenly spend 200 million or even 100 million...those teams would have to operate at a loss to keep up with the joneses

sure you can win without spending crazy amounts...and spending crazy amounts does not make you win...BUT acting like having that luxury of being able to spend tons of money more than someone else isn't a built in advantage is RIDICULOUS

there has to be a reasonable cap...you can't sit there and argue that it's fair for the Yankees to spend nearly 100 million more dollars than many other teams and then act like anyone should be surprised or even remotely impressed when they win a title...i mean come on...that's homerism at its finest...teams should be penalized for outrageous spending on so many busts...but they aren't penalized...they can just make up for their mistakes by shelling out even more money...whereas if other teams make a huge mistake it cripples them for years...so the margin for error for those smaller market teams is very small compared to the Yankees...how is that fair???

it's just the truth...baseball's economics are horrendously ****ed up and until fixed the sport is gonna continue to lose fans due to the fact that there's no sense of fairness

Its going up in key markets like NY, Boston, LA, and Chicago. STL remains constant. The rest of the country belongs to the NFL. Also seeing as how each WS becomes the lowest rated EVER i dont see how they arent being hurt overall.

Alex44
08-31-2006, 04:43 PM
good point

The problem is more than just salary cap

there should also be a low cap limit...like a limit to how little teams can pay

teams like the Pirates, Royals, Devil Rays, Brewers consistantly spend way too little to even dream of really competing...it's ridiculous to hope for anyone in those cities to care about the sport when their team doesn't even care or try to put a winning product on the field

plus anyone that argues that revenue sharing **** isn't getting the point...just because a team gets a few million doesn't mean they can suddenly spend 200 million or even 100 million...those teams would have to operate at a loss to keep up with the joneses

sure you can win without spending crazy amounts...and spending crazy amounts does not make you win...BUT acting like having that luxury of being able to spend tons of money more than someone else isn't a built in advantage is RIDICULOUS

there has to be a reasonable cap...you can't sit there and argue that it's fair for the Yankees to spend nearly 100 million more dollars than many other teams and then act like anyone should be surprised or even remotely impressed when they win a title...i mean come on...that's homerism at its finest...teams should be penalized for outrageous spending on so many busts...but they aren't penalized...they can just make up for their mistakes by shelling out even more money...whereas if other teams make a huge mistake it cripples them for years...so the margin for error for those smaller market teams is very small compared to the Yankees...how is that fair???

it's just the truth...baseball's economics are horrendously ****ed up and until fixed the sport is gonna continue to lose fans due to the fact that there's no sense of fairness

Its going up in key markets like NY, Boston, LA, and Chicago. STL remains constant. The rest of the country belongs to the NFL. Also seeing as how each WS becomes the lowest rated EVER i dont see how they arent being hurt overall.

The thing is the Yankees arent winning titles. If you have good scouts, coaches, and develop your players right you wont have a problem with a smaller payroll. No-one is stopping smaller market teams from spending, taking money out of their own pockets to improve the team (which will improve revenue in the long run) they just dont do it

djfresh47
08-31-2006, 11:21 PM
good point

The problem is more than just salary cap

there should also be a low cap limit...like a limit to how little teams can pay

teams like the Pirates, Royals, Devil Rays, Brewers consistantly spend way too little to even dream of really competing...it's ridiculous to hope for anyone in those cities to care about the sport when their team doesn't even care or try to put a winning product on the field

plus anyone that argues that revenue sharing **** isn't getting the point...just because a team gets a few million doesn't mean they can suddenly spend 200 million or even 100 million...those teams would have to operate at a loss to keep up with the joneses

sure you can win without spending crazy amounts...and spending crazy amounts does not make you win...BUT acting like having that luxury of being able to spend tons of money more than someone else isn't a built in advantage is RIDICULOUS

there has to be a reasonable cap...you can't sit there and argue that it's fair for the Yankees to spend nearly 100 million more dollars than many other teams and then act like anyone should be surprised or even remotely impressed when they win a title...i mean come on...that's homerism at its finest...teams should be penalized for outrageous spending on so many busts...but they aren't penalized...they can just make up for their mistakes by shelling out even more money...whereas if other teams make a huge mistake it cripples them for years...so the margin for error for those smaller market teams is very small compared to the Yankees...how is that fair???

it's just the truth...baseball's economics are horrendously ****ed up and until fixed the sport is gonna continue to lose fans due to the fact that there's no sense of fairness

Its going up in key markets like NY, Boston, LA, and Chicago. STL remains constant. The rest of the country belongs to the NFL. Also seeing as how each WS becomes the lowest rated EVER i dont see how they arent being hurt overall.

If we're discussing ratings I think the primetime games that young people aren't able to view are hurting baseball. Also if a game starts at 10 because a West Coast team makes the World Series how many people are going to stay up and watch just because it's the World Series? I think teams are penalized for spending over a certain amount in the form of a luxury tax. The Yankees have been over every year but the Rangers have been over 3 times and have been awful. The USA cares more about Football, who cares that has nothing to do with the economics of baseball. Baseball is fair how else can you explain the A's and the Twins consistently being very good and the Marlins this season making a run at the Wild Card. I think the problem is owners who get revenue sharing and just pocket the money while not trying to improve their team. Also the biggest problem in all of this is poor scouting. The Yankees have not won a World Series in I think 5 years yet people complain about them like they're winning championships every year, I don't get it.

MikeO
08-31-2006, 11:49 PM
The Yankees have not won a World Series in I think 5 years yet people complain about them like they're winning championships every year, I don't get it.

because most people are dumb. Look at this thread as proof (without naming names)

MikeO
08-31-2006, 11:50 PM
Also the biggest problem in all of this is poor scouting.

You mean like when everyone said for the past 3 or 4 years the Yanks have no farm system.

Robinson Cano
Melky Cabera
Ching Meng Wang

Guys EVERY team could have had in trades the past 2 years, but other teams said weren't "Major League Ready"

Yeah, that has something to do with payroll :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

MikeO
08-31-2006, 11:51 PM
The thing is the Yankees arent winning titles. If you have good scouts, coaches, and develop your players right you wont have a problem with a smaller payroll. No-one is stopping smaller market teams from spending, taking money out of their own pockets to improve the team (which will improve revenue in the long run) they just dont do it

This guy gets it!! :cooldude:

If the Yanks spend over $200 mill and dont' win. THEN pass out "FREE" money to smaller market clubs, do you really see anything changing?? :confused: :confused:

What idiot owner would want that gravey train of free money coming from the Bronx to stop,......when the Yanks aren't winning!!!

MikeO
08-31-2006, 11:57 PM
Its going up in key markets like NY, Boston, LA, and Chicago. STL remains constant. The rest of the country belongs to the NFL. Also seeing as how each WS becomes the lowest rated EVER i dont see how they arent being hurt overall.

1) Look at their latest TV deal. Trust me the sport isn't hurting.

2) Hasn't FLORIDA won 2 world championships in the past 10 years? Didn't, Arizona also win a title?? Small market teams are competing with the big boys and winning.

See, you may not understand this, but to many in the "inner baseball circle" about $125 mill is the max. If you spend $125 mill or $175, or $200 its all the same. At some point the money stops buying you "wins". This may be a concept you can't grasp, but its one almost everyone inside MLB feels. The difference between a team that spends $160 mill compared to a team that spends $125 mill is nill. Same for $200 mill to $125 mill. It's nill. There are only so many position and only 9 guys in the lineup. You can only buy so much.

UCFinfan86
09-01-2006, 08:40 AM
1) Look at their latest TV deal. Trust me the sport isn't hurting.

2) Hasn't FLORIDA won 2 world championships in the past 10 years? Didn't, Arizona also win a title?? Small market teams are competing with the big boys and winning.

See, you may not understand this, but to many in the "inner baseball circle" about $125 mill is the max. If you spend $125 mill or $175, or $200 its all the same. At some point the money stops buying you "wins". This may be a concept you can't grasp, but its one almost everyone inside MLB feels. The difference between a team that spends $160 mill compared to a team that spends $125 mill is nill. Same for $200 mill to $125 mill. It's nill. There are only so many position and only 9 guys in the lineup. You can only buy so much.

I agree with most of what you are sayign except point 3. 200 mill is alot different, just compare he redsox vs the yankees on it. The extra 75 mill let you get Damon from us, let you get Abreu and Lidle at the deadline(we couldn't afford to take on Abreu's contract). Those are 2 moves just this year. Going back a couple of years, the Arod trade(not that im complaining about it though). Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head.

GreenMonster
09-01-2006, 11:23 AM
I agree with most of what you are sayign except point 3. 200 mill is alot different, just compare he redsox vs the yankees on it. The extra 75 mill let you get Damon from us, let you get Abreu and Lidle at the deadline(we couldn't afford to take on Abreu's contract). Those are 2 moves just this year. Going back a couple of years, the Arod trade(not that im complaining about it though). Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head.

Are you a RedSox fan? First Damon was let go not because we didn't have the extra money, the Sox didn't feel Damon was worth anymore than 4yrs 40 million not a penny more.. 2nd I am pretty sure the reason we didn't get Abreu this year is because our pitching is AWFUL and another hitter wasn't gonna help us this year nor was Cory freaking Lidle.. We could have completed the AROD trade, but nobody wants to pay full price for a guy that was pretty much unmovable except for a handful of teams or less..

Man difference between the RedSox and Yankees this year.. The Yankee's spent their available money better than the RedSox.. End of Story..

MikeO
09-01-2006, 12:39 PM
I agree with most of what you are sayign except point 3. 200 mill is alot different, just compare he redsox vs the yankees on it. The extra 75 mill let you get Damon from us, let you get Abreu and Lidle at the deadline(we couldn't afford to take on Abreu's contract). Those are 2 moves just this year. Going back a couple of years, the Arod trade(not that im complaining about it though). Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head.

Couldnt be more wrong on Abreu. It was reported EVERYWHERE that if Trot Nixon got hurt 1 day earlier than when he did, Boston would have given up better players than NY did to get Abreu.

Boston could have afforded Abreu but didn't want to make the trade with a healthy Nixon. Once Nixon got hurt it was too late.........but they could have afforded him if they wanted to make the move.

MikeO
09-01-2006, 12:42 PM
Man difference between the RedSox and Yankees this year.. The Yankee's spent their available money better than the RedSox.. End of Story..

Yep. And people can knock Farnsworth all they want (and some with good reason) but Farnsworth is better than anyone (except Palpebon) in Boston's bullpen. That is a fact. Put Farnsworth on Boston and put him in Timlin's role or Tavarez's role and Boston is probalby 5-7 wins better than what they are now.

Same with Ron Villone.

These guys aren't all stars or great by any means. But in MLB middle relievers for the most part suck. There aren't many if any good ones. So once you find som OK ones, you gotta pay premium prices to get them. That is what NY did and what Boston DIDN'T do.

dob72
09-01-2006, 12:46 PM
1) Look at their latest TV deal. Trust me the sport isn't hurting.

2) Hasn't FLORIDA won 2 world championships in the past 10 years? Didn't, Arizona also win a title?? Small market teams are competing with the big boys and winning.

See, you may not understand this, but to many in the "inner baseball circle" about $125 mill is the max. If you spend $125 mill or $175, or $200 its all the same. At some point the money stops buying you "wins". This may be a concept you can't grasp, but its one almost everyone inside MLB feels. The difference between a team that spends $160 mill compared to a team that spends $125 mill is nill. Same for $200 mill to $125 mill. It's nill. There are only so many position and only 9 guys in the lineup. You can only buy so much.
keep telling yourself if it makes u feel better but its still not true

dob72
09-01-2006, 12:49 PM
If we're discussing ratings I think the primetime games that young people aren't able to view are hurting baseball. Also if a game starts at 10 because a West Coast team makes the World Series how many people are going to stay up and watch just because it's the World Series? I think teams are penalized for spending over a certain amount in the form of a luxury tax. The Yankees have been over every year but the Rangers have been over 3 times and have been awful. The USA cares more about Football, who cares that has nothing to do with the economics of baseball. Baseball is fair how else can you explain the A's and the Twins consistently being very good and the Marlins this season making a run at the Wild Card. I think the problem is owners who get revenue sharing and just pocket the money while not trying to improve their team. Also the biggest problem in all of this is poor scouting. The Yankees have not won a World Series in I think 5 years yet people complain about them like they're winning championships every year, I don't get it.
You can compete. You just can't compete every year. Like you might have a down year in your league and be right there. Or have a good season every 2-3 years. But the Yankees, Red Sox, and what not can field a team every year that's top of the league, roster wise.

dob72
09-01-2006, 12:55 PM
The problem with disscussing Baseball payrolls is that one team exists in their own reality, while most teams operate under their own system, and a few bottom feeders unable, or unwilling, to pony up the scratch to be a legit club just skate on by with no mention.

Remember, the difference between the Red Sox/Mets payroll and the Yankees is greater than the difference between the Red Sox/Mets payroll and the Royals.

MikeO
09-01-2006, 01:30 PM
The problem with disscussing Baseball payrolls is that one team exists in their own reality, while most teams operate under their own system, and a few bottom feeders unable, or unwilling, to pony up the scratch to be a legit club just skate on by with no mention.

Remember, the difference between the Red Sox/Mets payroll and the Yankees is greater than the difference between the Red Sox/Mets payroll and the Royals.

well that's life. It isn't fair.

My neighbor next door makes close to $1 mill a year and more $$ than I do. Everything ISN'T created equal.

Stop crying and whining about it.

And the Florida Marlins at a $15 mill payroll competing for the playoffs just blows this whole argument out of the water. Cause it proves you can't buy anything!!!!!!! That payroll doesn't matter! :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: Easy concept to grasp. It really is.

dob72
09-01-2006, 01:40 PM
1) Look at their latest TV deal. Trust me the sport isn't hurting.

2) Hasn't FLORIDA won 2 world championships in the past 10 years? Didn't, Arizona also win a title?? Small market teams are competing with the big boys and winning.



If you have an owner that is willing to spend a ton of dough and lose a ton of tough in a smaller market (like Arizona did for a while and got a title with Johnson, Schilling...) its only sustainable as long as the owner is willing to drown in red ink

the Marlins, won a title, then had the biggest fire sale in history because they lost so much dough. Would never have happened with the Yankees would it have?

Football has the better model. The playing field is about as close to even as you can get. That means if you have the best management, coaching and some luck, you can consistently contend. You can't be a dynasty because you can't afford everyone, but you can contend consistently if you have smart management and coaching.

Not so in baseball.
Its completely hypothetical, but I think if you had a level playing field (pardon the pun), where every team every season had a legitimate chance to compete, overall interest would be much higher.

I think part of the reason that the NFL went from well below baseball in economic health (I'm talking 30 years ago now) to far above it were key decisions involving revenue sharing so that every team could compete, from Green Bay and Kansas City, to Dallas and New York.

The incredible discrepencies in revenues and the ability to spend on players between the haves and the have nots means that over half the teams generally don't have a chance before a season starts. Unless you get extremely lucky, small market teams have a very small window of opportunity before they lose their players to larger market teams via free agency or because they can't afford them when they are salary arbitration eligible.

Teams like the Twins, As etc... have very short windows where they can get lucky and compete, but unlike the Yankees who can always afford more players, their windows shut pretty quickly.

dob72
09-01-2006, 01:43 PM
payroll doesn't matter!
riiiiiiiiiiiiiight then why bother having the highest payroll in sports history

See that's not really true. The Yankees, because they can afford ridiculous salaries, can make stupid decisions and take on enormous salaries to hide their prior mistakes. They may not have won the series in a while, but they are always in the post season. What you do in the post season is pretty much a crap shoot.

How often have the Pirates, Brewers, Royals even played .500 ball in the last dozen years or so, let alone make it to post season. Fans on those teams know they don't have a prayer before the season even starts.

There are occasions when smaller spending teams can make a little noise, but their windows of opportunity are short. They have to win soon, or else they lose their players to free agency or because they can't afford what salary arbitration will grant them.

Exceptions prove the rule. Like Minny and Oakland have done well in the last few years (although no championships there), every year they face tough decisions and are at risk of losing key talent. A's will probably lose Zito, what will Minny do with the man patrolling center field...

It's easier to win when you have the cash, but by no means does it mean it's automatic. true

I'm still of the opinion that Brian Cashman is one of the worst General Managers in sports.

Cashman is an idiot, what does that say about baseball. It says that one team has such a huge advantage over others, that even with an idiot running it, you can still make the playoffs year after year.

Motion
09-01-2006, 01:49 PM
Your obsession with the Yankees and their payroll is becoming quite scary. If something like that gets you so worked up you need to seek professional help. Its really getting quite pathetic.

dob72
09-01-2006, 01:50 PM
Your obsession with the Yankees and their payroll is becoming quite scary. If something like that gets you so worked up you need to seek professional help. Its really getting quite pathetic. i guess it is pathetic to like the once great sport of baseball

MikeO
09-01-2006, 01:55 PM
Football has the better model. The playing field is about as close to even as you can get. That means if you have the best management, coaching and some luck, you can consistently contend. You can't be a dynasty because you can't afford everyone, but you can contend consistently if you have smart management and coaching.

Not so in baseball.
Its completely hypothetical, but I think if you had a level playing field (pardon the pun), where every team every season had a legitimate chance to compete, overall interest would be much higher.

I think part of the reason that the NFL went from well below baseball in economic health (I'm talking 30 years ago now) to far above it were key decisions involving revenue sharing so that every team could compete, from Green Bay and Kansas City, to Dallas and New York.

The incredible discrepencies in revenues and the ability to spend on players between the haves and the have nots means that over half the teams generally don't have a chance before a season starts. Unless you get extremely lucky, small market teams have a very small window of opportunity before they lose their players to larger market teams via free agency or because they can't afford them when they are salary arbitration eligible.

.

You can't compare it to football! :shakeno:

Football games are played on 1 day a week (majority) and they have 1 universal TV deal. It's only 17 weeks. It's easy for 1 TV deal and to share the money. There are only 16 games max per week.

MLB goes for 8 months!!!!!!!! 32++ weeks. 162 games. You can't have 1 universal TV deal and share the money!! :shakeno:

It's like comparing a jet to a car. Sure both are forms of transportation but it makes no sense to compare them and expect both to be equal.

MikeO
09-01-2006, 01:56 PM
Football has the better model. .

Then go watch football! HELLO!

dob72
09-01-2006, 01:57 PM
well that's life. It isn't fair.

My neighbor next door makes close to $1 mill a year and more $$ than I do. Everything ISN'T created equal.

Stop crying and whining about it.


thats fine life isn't fair but don't sit there and pretend payroll means nothing and the yankees winning anything is even remotely impressive

MikeO
09-01-2006, 01:59 PM
riiiiiiiiiiiiiight then why bother having the highest payroll in sports history

See that's not really true. The Yankees, because they can afford ridiculous salaries, can make stupid decisions and take on enormous salaries to hide their prior mistakes. They may not have won the series in a while, but they are always in the post season. What you do in the post season is pretty much a crap shoot.

How often have the Pirates, Brewers, Royals even played .500 ball in the last dozen years or so, let alone make it to post season. Fans on those teams know they don't have a prayer before the season even starts.

There are occasions when smaller spending teams can make a little noise, but their windows of opportunity are short. They have to win soon, or else they lose their players to free agency or because they can't afford what salary arbitration will grant them.

Exceptions prove the rule. Like Minny and Oakland have done well in the last few years (although no championships there), every year they face tough decisions and are at risk of losing key talent. A's will probably lose Zito, what will Minny do with the man patrolling center field...

It's easier to win when you have the cash, but by no means does it mean it's automatic. true

I'm still of the opinion that Brian Cashman is one of the worst General Managers in sports.

Cashman is an idiot, what does that say about baseball. It says that one team has such a huge advantage over others, that even with an idiot running it, you can still make the playoffs year after year.


blah blah blah blah.........blah blah blah blah......blah blah blah, blah blah! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!

Dude your a broken record at this point.

And how is Cashman an idiot??? He just fleeced Philly for Abreu and Lidel. That wasn't all about payroll, other teams were after them. How is Cashman an idiot when he DIDN'T trade Cano, Melky, or Wang and got big names in return. Dude you hate the Yanks. We get it, but don't lose all your credibility by sounding clueless about this. Your reaching on some of this stuff.

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:00 PM
Then go watch football! HELLO!
oh yes i get it don't like it don't watch it and i don't really anymore but does that mean i can't have a discussion about the state of baseball

MikeO
09-01-2006, 02:03 PM
Your obsession with the Yankees and their payroll is becoming quite scary. If something like that gets you so worked up you need to seek professional help. Its really getting quite pathetic.


:allhail: :rofl3: :rofl3:

Thank you for saying what needed to be said!!! This thread really needs to be locked. Watching one person hang themselves and spew nonsense isn't fun anymore and painful.

MikeO
09-01-2006, 02:03 PM
oh yes i get it don't like it don't watch it and i don't really anymore but does that mean i can't have a discussion about the state of baseball

if you don't watch............why do you care? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:05 PM
but don't lose all your credibility by sounding clueless about this. Your reaching on some of this stuff. coming from you thats dosen't mean much nothing i said wasn't true

u seem to be the one reaching on stuff saying payroll dosen't matter at all

saying 126 mill is the same as 200 mill

yeah i"m the one sounding clueless

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:07 PM
if you don't watch............why do you care? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
because i did and still like the sport just hate the way its run i also hate the way american is run in certin aspect i guess i should just get out then right lmao

MikeO
09-01-2006, 02:08 PM
coming from you thats dosen't mean much nothing i said wasn't true

u seem to be the one reaching on stuff saying payroll dosen't matter at all

saying 126 mill is the same as 200 mill

yeah i"m the one sounding clueless

I never said payroll doesn't matter.

I said at some point it doesn't matter if you spend $125 or $176. Or $200. Yes, I said that. You can ONLY play so many guys at once. Only so many guys can hit. Only so many guys can play. Only so many guys on the active roster. That is an opinion shared by MANY MANY baeball people.

But since you don't watch baeball, you wouldn't know about that would you??? :lol: :shakeno:

MikeO
09-01-2006, 02:09 PM
because i did and still like the sport just hate the way its run i also hate the way american is run in certin aspect i guess i should just get out then right lmao


:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: You have now officially lost it. :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: Seriously, step away from the computer. Have a cold drink of water. You aren't coming off good in these posts now.

Leaving America??? How did that get into this discussion :sidelol: :sidelol:

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:11 PM
:allhail: :rofl3: :rofl3:

Thank you for saying what needed to be said!!! This thread really needs to be locked. Watching one person hang themselves and spew nonsense isn't fun anymore and painful. hmm really can u tell me what part i said was nonsense

i think the truth is i have made u look stupid in everything u said and now ur trying to turn in on me

but hey thats ok keep pretending i'm the clueless one here lmao

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:12 PM
I never said payroll doesn't matter.




payroll doesn't matter! :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: Easy concept to grasp. It really is.
hmm

MikeO
09-01-2006, 02:13 PM
hmm

took it out of context, but ok. whatever.

you are hanging yourself today.

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:16 PM
took it out of context, but ok. whatever.

you are hanging yourself today.
oh you have now officially lost it hanging yourself ?? How did that get into this discussion

lol dude do u even think about what you say

FaninPatsyLand
09-01-2006, 02:18 PM
I said at some point it doesn't matter if you spend $125 or $176. Or $200.

Only from a Yankee fan! That's the most asinine thing I've ever read on this message board.

The difference between the Red Sox and Yankees payroll was FOUR Manny Ramirez contracts. But I'm sure that's a pretty insignificant addition to a club. And it's not an excuse or anything, that's a fact.

Then you have the audacity to turn around and tell someone else to step away from the computer? Absolutely ridiculous.

dob72
09-01-2006, 02:24 PM
blah blah blah blah.........blah blah blah blah......blah blah blah, blah blah! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!

Dude your a broken record at this point.
look kids the definition of somebody who has lost



And how is Cashman an idiot??? He just fleeced Philly for Abreu and Lidel. That wasn't all about payroll, um hello that was all about payroll the phillies did it for a salary dump and no team wanted to touch abreu huge salary but the yankees

djfresh47
09-01-2006, 03:12 PM
You can compete. You just can't compete every year. Like you might have a down year in your league and be right there. Or have a good season every 2-3 years. But the Yankees, Red Sox, and what not can field a team every year that's top of the league, roster wise.

The Braves won their division for fifteen straight seasons so in theory no other team could compete because they were better run than other teams. The A's and Twins have been competed for the division/playoffs the last few seasons. Neither made it last year but it appears the Red Sox won't make it this year. The Rangers I think have paid the luxury tax three seasons since the new agreement was made and have they even finished in 2nd the last few seasons? Generally football teams can't field a team that's at the top of the league roster wise just look at the last few NFC champions. They're on an equal playing field but the better run teams generally stay on top longer. The Yankees can afford to make a mistake on a player and the Royals can't, that's the point you seem to be trying to make which is true. Although when one team is going for Doug Mientkiewicz and Reggie Sanders in an offseason how good do they really expect to be. The White Sox bring in Jim Thome and Vazquez who they got ripped off for but that's besides the point and the Royals bring in Mientkiewicz and Sanders, really what team do you expect to be better? So if the Marlins make the playoffs they're applauded for being the anti-Yankees for fielding a good scouting system and developing players the same way the A's develop guys year after year and the Twins develop guys. Which is why they're playoff caliber teams. Hopefully the Pirates actually do have a decent season soon because their ballpark is amazing.

RWhitney014
09-01-2006, 04:22 PM
Look, I'm no Yankee sympathizer (in fact, I'm wearing my BEAT NY shirt right now), but honestly, Red Sox fans can't complain that the Yankees spend too much. Any time a team tries to sign a player only to prevent the other one from getting him, you can't be crying poor.

The Marlins are probably too far on the other extreme, but fans in Minnesota are the ones who should be complaining. Instead, Terry Ryan drafts strong, trades wisely (Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser for Pierzynski with Mauer waiting in the wings is the heist of the century), and if they had even $15 million more to spend in payroll, bringing their total up to a lofty $78 million, they'd be flat-out dominant.

RWhitney014
09-01-2006, 04:24 PM
The Braves won their division for fifteen straight seasons so in theory no other team could compete because they were better run than other teams. The A's and Twins have been competed for the division/playoffs the last few seasons. Neither made it last year but it appears the Red Sox won't make it this year. The Rangers I think have paid the luxury tax three seasons since the new agreement was made and have they even finished in 2nd the last few seasons? Generally football teams can't field a team that's at the top of the league roster wise just look at the last few NFC champions. They're on an equal playing field but the better run teams generally stay on top longer. The Yankees can afford to make a mistake on a player and the Royals can't, that's the point you seem to be trying to make which is true. Although when one team is going for Doug Mientkiewicz and Reggie Sanders in an offseason how good do they really expect to be. The White Sox bring in Jim Thome and Vazquez who they got ripped off for but that's besides the point and the Royals bring in Mientkiewicz and Sanders, really what team do you expect to be better? So if the Marlins make the playoffs they're applauded for being the anti-Yankees for fielding a good scouting system and developing players the same way the A's develop guys year after year and the Twins develop guys. Which is why they're playoff caliber teams. Hopefully the Pirates actually do have a decent season soon because their ballpark is amazing.

And just to nitpick, they won it for 14 straight seasons...they did not win the division in 1994 and would not have (the Expos would have, talk about changing history).

FaninPatsyLand
09-01-2006, 04:36 PM
Look, I'm no Yankee sympathizer (in fact, I'm wearing my BEAT NY shirt right now), but honestly, Red Sox fans can't complain that the Yankees spend too much. Any time a team tries to sign a player only to prevent the other one from getting him, you can't be crying poor.

I'm assuming this was directed at me, and if it was, I have no idea why.

I'm not complaining about the Yankees payroll at all. I just simply pointed out what a ridiculous notion it was to claim that the Red Sox and Yankees are on a level playing field when it comes to payrolls. It's not an excuse as to why the Red Sox have been teribble post All-Star break or anything, it's just a fact.

It's just asinine.

Ray Finkle
09-01-2006, 05:35 PM
Only from a Yankee fan! That's the most asinine thing I've ever read on this message board.

The difference between the Red Sox and Yankees payroll was FOUR Manny Ramirez contracts. But I'm sure that's a pretty insignificant addition to a club. And it's not an excuse or anything, that's a fact.

Then you have the audacity to turn around and tell someone else to step away from the computer? Absolutely ridiculous.

Excellent point. If the Red Sox didn't care about payroll the Sox would have BOTH Manny and Arod in their line up today because the original Arod to the Sox deal was going to be Nomar and a prospect (most likely Jon Lester) to Texas. It wasn't until Manny demanded a trade that the Sox turned around first put him on waivers and then to try and trade him to Texas for Arod.

Ray Finkle
09-01-2006, 05:37 PM
Look, I'm no Yankee sympathizer (in fact, I'm wearing my BEAT NY shirt right now), but honestly, Red Sox fans can't complain that the Yankees spend too much. Any time a team tries to sign a player only to prevent the other one from getting him, you can't be crying poor.

When was the last time the Red Sox signed a player just to prevent him from going to the Yankees?

In fact the Red Sox had a chance to do that this year with Abreu and didn't want to spend the money on him (which would have cost them 39 million in luxury taxes on just Abreu alone).

RWhitney014
09-01-2006, 05:40 PM
I'm assuming this was directed at me, and if it was, I have no idea why.

I'm not complaining about the Yankees payroll at all. I just simply pointed out what a ridiculous notion it was to claim that the Red Sox and Yankees are on a level playing field when it comes to payrolls. It's not an excuse as to why the Red Sox have been teribble post All-Star break or anything, it's just a fact.

It's just asinine.

Nope, not directed at you. Just a general observation. I hear tons of Red Sox, Cubs, Mets, and other teams' fans complaining about payroll inequity when theirs are in the triple digits. Payrolls in the other major sports don't even approach that, with the exception of the ridiculous Knicks. I know there are 25 guys on a baseball team as opposed to 15 on a basketball or 20 on a hockey team, but football teams have 45+ plus players with notable salaries. I understand the landscape is different in each sport, but payrolls in baseball should be topping out at $100 million/team, give or take a little bit. That's giving the average player $4 million, a very reasonable amount, and it would return to the sport the affordable veteran free agent pickup. The Esteban Loaizas of the world shouldn't be making $7 million a year.

djfresh47
09-01-2006, 07:38 PM
And just to nitpick, they won it for 14 straight seasons...they did not win the division in 1994 and would not have (the Expos would have, talk about changing history).

And the Expo's probably would've won the World Series IMO, they were easily the best team. Frank Thomas was on a tear that season along with maybe Griffey or some other player and their were discussions of them challenging 61 that year. As a White Sox fan I was extremely dissapointed in the strike I thought they would've beat the Yankees and taken the AL pennant.