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View Full Version : Buried in the Standings? Build with Pitching, not Bats



ArticleNinja
09-23-2006, 08:05 AM
Tropical Flash

http://www.finheaven.com/Commentary/Tropical_Flash/OT%3A_%09%09Buried_in_the_Standings?_Build_with_Pitching%2C_not_Bats_200609233466/

Muck
09-25-2006, 08:06 AM
Bump for server issues, etc.

RWhitney014
09-25-2006, 12:10 PM
OK, guys, someone throw out an opinion here so we get a conversation started.

RWhitney014
09-25-2006, 05:02 PM
...or not.

Ray Finkle
09-25-2006, 05:40 PM
I read it and enjoyed it. You're 100% correct. Draft pitching, pitching and pitching because you can never have enough of it. Then if you need a big bat you trade a pitching chip/prospect for one because every team always looks for pitching.

djfresh47
09-25-2006, 09:57 PM
Just to play devil's advocate when the A's ran out a rotation of Mulder/Hudson/Zito they didn't get out of the first round of the playoffs and the Atlanta Braves while making the playoffs every year got one World Series while having a great rotation for most of that time. I think it is important to draft well but using the Devil Rays as an example of a team with good young offensive players I don't think works because of the division they play in. The Twins have some solid young pitchers but they didn't draft Liriano, and who even knows how healthy he's going to be with his mechanics. Look at the Chicago Cubs who had the makings of a great 1-2 in Wood and Prior yet it didn't work out. You can label the Marlins arms great or potentially great but young pitchers have to prove it over a few years. I believe the best pitching is in the American League, but I also think the elite pitchers will have an ERA around 4 in the next few years and having an ERA around 5 won't be considered a bad season. I'm not positive on this but wasn't Jimmy Gobble or somebody the Royals drafted a few years ago supposed to be some great prospect? Even with Detroits rotation and Minnesota having Johan, the favorites in the AL are the Yankees and the favorites in the NL are the Mets and look at the lineups those teams have.

Rocky Raccoon
09-25-2006, 10:01 PM
great article...I couldn't agree more. It's always good to have solid hitters...but you can't go anywhere without great pitching.

Ray Finkle
09-25-2006, 10:10 PM
Just to play devil's advocate when the A's ran out a rotation of Mulder/Hudson/Zito they didn't get out of the first round of the playoffs and the Atlanta Braves while making the playoffs every year got one World Series while having a great rotation for most of that time. I think it is important to draft well but using the Devil Rays as an example of a team with good young offensive players I don't think works because of the division they play in. The Twins have some solid young pitchers but they didn't draft Liriano, and who even knows how healthy he's going to be with his mechanics. Look at the Chicago Cubs who had the makings of a great 1-2 in Wood and Prior yet it didn't work out. You can label the Marlins arms great or potentially great but young pitchers have to prove it over a few years. I believe the best pitching is in the American League, but I also think the elite pitchers will have an ERA around 4 in the next few years and having an ERA around 5 won't be considered a bad season. I'm not positive on this but wasn't Jimmy Gobble or somebody the Royals drafted a few years ago supposed to be some great prospect? Even with Detroits rotation and Minnesota having Johan, the favorites in the AL are the Yankees and the favorites in the NL are the Mets and look at the lineups those teams have.

Good points about the A's and Braves. The A's had the big 3 but those guys were never all healthy at the same time, if my memory is correct (although they might have been in 2001-2002, but the big 3 were still very young. In 2003 Mulder was out, Hudson got into the fight at the bar in Boston and couldn't pitch because of his hip. The other years they had to play the Yankees who had better teams. Of course you always need a few hitters in your line up to drive in at least 1 run to win a game, that's why the Braves never won the WS.

The Cubs just have some really bad luck. With drafting a rotation of Wood, Prior and Zambrino if they were all every healthy they could make a serious run.

And it wasn't Jimmy Gobble it was current Boston Red Sox pitcher Kyle Synder. Which goes to show you that baseball is different than any other sport where drafting a guy in the 1st round doesn't mean the guy will ever make it to the majors or be any good.

RWhitney014
09-25-2006, 10:12 PM
Jimmy Gobble, Zack Greinke, Kyle Snyder, Runelvys Hernandez, etc. The Royals under Baird just had awful scouting. Just because guys don't work out doesn't mean that's not the way to go.

Ray Finkle
09-25-2006, 10:14 PM
I remember back when Dan Duquette was the GM of the Red Sox and he always said you draft pitchers because they are the easest and most attractive chips to trade for MLB talent. And he was right, he used 2 prospects (Carl Pavano and Tony Arms Jr.) to get Pedro Martinez, used 2 pitching prospects (including Tomo Ohka) to land Urbina when the team needed a closer. He had a very good point eventhough he was a terrible GM when it came to resigning veterans and burning bridges.

By the way Duquette was responsible for signing Jon Lester and Anibal Sanchez.

PHINATIC13
09-25-2006, 10:39 PM
Nice article.I would agree with most of everyone's points/opinions.I believe good pitching will get you to the"dance"(playoffs),but if you want to bang the proverbial prom queen(win it all)you gotta have the sticks as well.Most teams that make the playoffs all have good pitching or imo they wouldn't be there in the first place.



But hey I'm an Angel's fan so cut me a little slack.:wink:



who's team for the second year in a row FAILED to sign a "bat" by the trade deadline for the playoff push.:mad:

RWhitney014
09-25-2006, 10:52 PM
Nice article.I would agree with most of everyone's points/opinions.I believe good pitching will get you to the"dance"(playoffs),but if you want to bang the proverbial prom queen(win it all)you gotta have the sticks as well.Most teams that make the playoffs all have good pitching or imo they wouldn't be there in the first place.



But hey I'm an Angel's fan so cut me a little slack.:wink:



who's team for the second year in a row FAILED to sign a "bat" by the trade deadline for the playoff push.:mad:

So the question is, did you have the sticks?

djfresh47
09-25-2006, 10:52 PM
Jimmy Gobble, Zack Greinke, Kyle Snyder, Runelvys Hernandez, etc. The Royals under Baird just had awful scouting. Just because guys don't work out doesn't mean that's not the way to go.

Greinke is the guy i'm thinking of. For a team to rebuild I don't think they have to draft pitching. Their certainly are other ways of going about it but I think the easiest way is to sell when your players have the most value if you're a bad team. I don't think the Nationals are going to re-sign Soriano who is a top notch player, yet they didn't trade him. Looking back at some trades like A.J. Pierzynski for Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser, Francisco Liriano, the Bagwell deal the Red Sox made, even the Mark Mulder deal right now are reasons why teams have been in contention. Organizations don't handle players the right way either and guys don't get an opportunity to learn how to be major league pitchers. The Tigers were mentioned yet Maroth and Bondermen I think both were 20 game losers a couple years ago but because they played on bad teams they were allowed the chance to grow into the starters role and become very good pitchers.

djfresh47
09-25-2006, 10:58 PM
Good points about the A's and Braves. The A's had the big 3 but those guys were never all healthy at the same time, if my memory is correct (although they might have been in 2001-2002, but the big 3 were still very young. In 2003 Mulder was out, Hudson got into the fight at the bar in Boston and couldn't pitch because of his hip. The other years they had to play the Yankees who had better teams. Of course you always need a few hitters in your line up to drive in at least 1 run to win a game, that's why the Braves never won the WS.

The Cubs just have some really bad luck. With drafting a rotation of Wood, Prior and Zambrino if they were all every healthy they could make a serious run.

And it wasn't Jimmy Gobble it was current Boston Red Sox pitcher Kyle Synder. Which goes to show you that baseball is different than any other sport where drafting a guy in the 1st round doesn't mean the guy will ever make it to the majors or be any good.

It was Greinke and I think that hockey and baseball are the two most difficult sports to draft players in because they're often very young high school players. Drafting guys that young who dominate the high school level often doesn't work out the NBA is a great example of this also. We focus on LeBron/KG but forget about Ndubi Ebi and other high schoolers who never panned out.

PHINATIC13
09-25-2006, 11:19 PM
So the question is, did you have the sticks?


Read the fine print in my first post.That would be a big NO! It should be a interesting off-season for my Halos,but if we don't sign/trade for a big name bat I'm going to go ballistic.In my perfect world I'd like to sign Soriano(he can pitch if he wants to j/k) cause I do feel we have enough(with some minor tweaking i.e. LH relief) pitching to win now.