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MikeO
11-10-2006, 02:33 PM
Buster Onley is reporting the Red Sox bid around $45 mill just for the right to talk to the Japanesse pitcher and have won. Official announcement won't be made for another week.

So, they bid $45 mill to talk to the guy. Will end up spending over $100 mill to sign him.

This means two things....
1) Red Sox fans and front office can't cry about the Yanks buying everything. This move puts you in their league.

2) No more EVIL EMPIRE talk when your spending $45 mill just to talk to the guy!!!!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2656687

FaninPatsyLand
11-10-2006, 03:08 PM
Buster Onley is reporting the Red Sox bid around $45 mill just for the right to talk to the Japanesse pitcher and have won. Official announcement won't be made for another week.

So, they bid $45 mill to talk to the guy. Will end up spending over $100 mill to sign him.

This means two things....
1) Red Sox fans and front office can't cry about the Yanks buying everything. This move puts you in their league.

2) No more EVIL EMPIRE talk when your spending $45 mill just to talk to the guy!!!!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2656687 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2656687[/quote)

Gyroball in Fenway!

haha, such a ridiculous price to just negotiate with him.. but it doesn't count towards the salary cap.

If this kid ends up being legit, a rotation of: Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, Matsuzaka has potential to be dominant.

Ray Finkle
11-10-2006, 03:11 PM
This kid better be the real deal.

Good thing the Sox didn't over spend for older guys like Damon and Pedro.

Now all Theo and Co have to do is sign Gagne and maybe someone like a Mulder to be 5th starter, maybe JD Drew to play RF and CF and a few more pen arms and this team might be pretty good next year.

Motion
11-10-2006, 03:16 PM
Hmm... was hoping the Yanks got him but thats quite the pricetag.

Chavez Ravine
11-10-2006, 03:18 PM
This kid better be the real deal.

Good thing the Sox didn't over spend for older guys like Damon and Pedro.

Now all Theo and Co have to do is sign Gagne and maybe someone like a Mulder to be 5th starter, maybe JD Drew to play RF and CF and a few more pen arms and this team might be pretty good next year.

I think Gagne will stay in LA

And You can have JD Drew



Do they even need a 5th starter? Won't Papelbon be in the rotation?

Ray Finkle
11-10-2006, 03:21 PM
I think Gagne will stay in LA

And You can have JD Drew



Do they even need a 5th starter? Won't Papelbon be in the rotation?

You can never have too much pitching. Right now the rotation is: Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, Mataskue, and Wakefield. Lester probably won't be healthy enough to pitch this year but his health is more important than baseball.

The Sox need a lot of pen help. I'm really hoping they sign Gagne.

Roman529
11-10-2006, 03:27 PM
After seeig what Ryan Howard did to Japanese pitching I think I would pass on any pitchers from Japan. :lol:

RWhitney014
11-10-2006, 03:29 PM
Buster Onley is reporting the Red Sox bid around $45 mill just for the right to talk to the Japanesse pitcher and have won. Official announcement won't be made for another week.

So, they bid $45 mill to talk to the guy. Will end up spending over $100 mill to sign him.

This means two things....
1) Red Sox fans and front office can't cry about the Yanks buying everything. This move puts you in their league.

2) No more EVIL EMPIRE talk when your spending $45 mill just to talk to the guy!!!!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2656687


For a guy who's always complaining about people with "second city" attitudes (and admittedly, you're usually right about that), those are two awfully hypocritical points on the story.

And Ray, Matsukue? :lol:

That's the best butchering I've seen of a name in a while. And my last name's Gattegno. :lol:

Either way, big boon for the Sox if this is true. Beckett will probably improve some in his second year in the AL, even if he'll never bottle October 2003 for good, but Schilling, Beckett, and Matsuzaka is a hell of a top three. Just keep in mind, winning the posting DOES NOT mean Matsuzaka will automatically be in scarlet hosiery next season. First, Seibu has to accept the bid (which they will, but it's worth noting), and second, they actually have to work out a contract with him. So if it's a 4-year, $48 million, which is a safe estimate, it's really like a 4/$93 contract if the bid really was $45 million. Wow...

...where was that money when John Henry owned the Marlins?

Ray Finkle
11-10-2006, 03:30 PM
After seeig what Ryan Howard did to Japanese pitching I think I would pass on any pitchers from Japan. :lol:

Ryan Howard made Americans, Canadians, Domincians, Puerto Ricans, etc look foolish this year. You can't generalize like that.

With those comments, the MLB teams start looking in the Middle East or Africa for pitchers now I guess.

Ray Finkle
11-10-2006, 03:31 PM
For a guy who's always complaining about people with "second city" attitudes (and admittedly, you're usually right about that), those are two awfully hypocritical points on the story.

And Ray, Matsukue? :lol:

That's the best butchering I've seen of a name in a while. And my last name's Gattegno. :lol:

Either way, big boon for the Sox if this is true. Beckett will probably improve some in his second year in the AL, even if he'll never bottle October 2003 for good, but Schilling, Beckett, and Matsuzaka is a hell of a top three. Just keep in mind, winning the posting DOES NOT mean Matsuzaka will automatically be in scarlet hosiery next season. First, Seibu has to accept the bid (which they will, but it's worth noting), and second, they actually have to work out a contract with him. So if it's a 4-year, $48 million, which is a safe estimate, it's really like a 4/$93 contract if the bid really was $45 million. Wow...

...where was that money when John Henry owned the Marlins?

I never said I was a spelling bee champ. :lol:

I need to start working on that spelling. It's just to screw me everytime and I don't think it's too PC to call him the Japanese pitcher much longer.

I 100% agree with everything else you wrote.

And of course those were 2 hypocritical points. The Red Sox made news and got someone who Yankees fans wanted so of course they're going to try and put down the Sox. It's natural with the rivary.

NJFINSFAN1
11-10-2006, 04:25 PM
After seeig what Ryan Howard did to Japanese pitching I think I would pass on any pitchers from Japan. :lol:

You mean David wright and Jose Reyes!!!!!:wink:

dob72
11-11-2006, 03:22 AM
yankees stay losing

MikeO
11-11-2006, 06:22 AM
This kid better be the real deal.

Good thing the Sox didn't over spend for older guys like Damon and Pedro.

Now all Theo and Co have to do is sign Gagne and maybe someone like a Mulder to be 5th starter, maybe JD Drew to play RF and CF and a few more pen arms and this team might be pretty good next year.

I would stay away from JD Drew. Why do you want that clown. He's never healthy

MikeO
11-11-2006, 06:26 AM
Gyroball in Fenway!

haha, such a ridiculous price to just negotiate with him.. but it doesn't count towards the salary cap.

If this kid ends up being legit, a rotation of: Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, Matsuzaka has potential to be dominant.

I know you will think it's just me hating on the Sox, but that rotation doesn't put fear into anyone and everything must fall just the right way for them to be dominant. Schilling is good, no doubt. But he is a year older and he could hit that wall anytime that old pitchers do. Papelbon will go from throwing 1 inning to 5 or 6 and he ended last year on a major down-note. Beckett......please. This guy has had a good 3 month run his entire MLB career. Granted it came at the right time, but I'm not sold on him being great. He is average at best. And with the Jap guy who knows what you will get.

Hey, the Yanks staff isn't much better I know. But the Sox staff I wouldnt feel safe with or think they have the potential to be dominant. That is a lot of stars lining up the right way for that to happen. We will see though, that is why they play the games

Ray Finkle
11-11-2006, 10:37 AM
I know you will think it's just me hating on the Sox, but that rotation doesn't put fear into anyone and everything must fall just the right way for them to be dominant. Schilling is good, no doubt. But he is a year older and he could hit that wall anytime that old pitchers do. Papelbon will go from throwing 1 inning to 5 or 6 and he ended last year on a major down-note. Beckett......please. This guy has had a good 3 month run his entire MLB career. Granted it came at the right time, but I'm not sold on him being great. He is average at best. And with the Jap guy who knows what you will get.

Hey, the Yanks staff isn't much better I know. But the Sox staff I wouldnt feel safe with or think they have the potential to be dominant. That is a lot of stars lining up the right way for that to happen. We will see though, that is why they play the games

Exactly. On paper the rotation of Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, Mats and Wakefield have to be considered the best in the AL East, but then again Chicago White Sox had the best rotation on paper in the Central last year and didn't make the playoffs. I think both Papelbon and Beckett will be fine this year. In fact I'm worried about Schilling more than Beckett or Papelbon due to his age.

I do think the Sox staff has the potential to be dominant though. And am excited to see them pitch.

FinsNYanksFan13
11-11-2006, 11:28 AM
You gotta give props to the Red Sox management because for the first time they weren't penny pinching like they've done in the past. Obviously this kid is going to be a good pitcher and is going to make an impact for a team. The only negative on this kid is if his arm finally has enough and he suffers an injury. Othe then that, the Red Sox got themselves a hell of a pitcher, end of story. As much as I wanted him, the positive thing for the Yankees in this situation is that you know their going to make some serious moves to counter this. The Yankees aren't just going sit there and let the Red Sox make a move like this and not do anything in return. It is what it is, props to the Red Sox for finally sticking their hands in their pockets and getting something done although it makes me laugh how that stay paying guys who have never done anything in their uniform and continute to let guys go who have done so much for them in their uniform!

like2god
11-11-2006, 12:06 PM
Here are a few videos of Matsuzaka in action for anyone that is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLAgxBHWNeM

The Gyro pitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdr0N9HDptg

.

phunwin
11-11-2006, 12:14 PM
Buster Onley is reporting the Red Sox bid around $45 mill just for the right to talk to the Japanesse pitcher and have won. Official announcement won't be made for another week.

So, they bid $45 mill to talk to the guy. Will end up spending over $100 mill to sign him.

This means two things....
1) Red Sox fans and front office can't cry about the Yanks buying everything. This move puts you in their league.

2) No more EVIL EMPIRE talk when your spending $45 mill just to talk to the guy!!!!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2656687

I'll be awaiting your apology for calling me naive (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showpost.php?p=1061454044&postcount=96) for suggesting the whole process was not, in fact, rigged to bring Matsuzaka to the Yankees. No need for any sort of legal document or lengthy explanation. A simple "my bad" will suffice, thanks.

tylerdolphin
11-11-2006, 01:08 PM
I wanted that guy...not only because he is a good picther, but because if we have him he isnt on the Red Sox

Ray Finkle
11-11-2006, 02:10 PM
You gotta give props to the Red Sox management because for the first time they weren't penny pinching like they've done in the past. Obviously this kid is going to be a good pitcher and is going to make an impact for a team. The only negative on this kid is if his arm finally has enough and he suffers an injury. Othe then that, the Red Sox got themselves a hell of a pitcher, end of story. As much as I wanted him, the positive thing for the Yankees in this situation is that you know their going to make some serious moves to counter this. The Yankees aren't just going sit there and let the Red Sox make a move like this and not do anything in return. It is what it is, props to the Red Sox for finally sticking their hands in their pockets and getting something done although it makes me laugh how that stay paying guys who have never done anything in their uniform and continute to let guys go who have done so much for them in their uniform!

So you still think the Red Sox should have offered Pedro the contract the Mets did? Sorry but the Sox were 100% right on that move.

Orlando Cabrera is really the only guy that I wish was still on the team and possibly Derek Lowe (but I'm not sure if he would have been as good due to his personal problems).

Damon is the only guy that you can make an arguement about but like Pedro, the Sox were worried he'd turn into a shell of his former self very quickly. So let's talk about the Damon move this time next year.

Ray Finkle
11-11-2006, 02:14 PM
Here are a few videos of Matsuzaka in action for anyone that is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLAgxBHWNeM

The Gyro pitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdr0N9HDptg

.

The movement on his pitches are unreal. Pitching is all about location, movement and changing speeds. Granted he's not facing MLB players but I'm not sure any MLB players could hit some of those off speed pitches that drop so much.

Get it done Theo!

UCFinfan86
11-11-2006, 02:25 PM
from buster olney's blog, either way it seems the redsox could win on this


"If Boras and Matsuzaka balk at this and threaten to go back to Japan, the Red Sox could contact other teams and conduct a trade auction and deal the rights to negotiate with him.
Say the Mets bid something in the range of $28 million for Matsuzaka, in their pursuit of a power pitcher. The Red Sox could ask the Mets for reliever Aaron Heilman and a prospect -- maybe Lastings Milledge, maybe a pitcher like Mike Pelfrey or Philip Humber, maybe a lesser player -- in return for Matsuzaka. And the Red Sox could also ask the Mets to forward something close to the posting fee they bid.
The Mets might say no; they might say yes. They need a power pitcher. For Heilman, a prospect and at least a large portion of Boston's posting fee, they could have Matsuzaka. The Red Sox, on the other hand, could pay the difference in the posting fee and get someone like Heilman and more prospects in return. In the end, they would effectively be purchasing talent from other organizations, and at the same time, keep Matsuka away from the Yankees, at a time when he would be a perfect puzzle piece for the rival Bronx Bombers."

MikeO
11-11-2006, 02:47 PM
I'll be awaiting your apology for calling me naive (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showpost.php?p=1061454044&postcount=96) for suggesting the whole process was not, in fact, rigged to bring Matsuzaka to the Yankees. No need for any sort of legal document or lengthy explanation. A simple "my bad" will suffice, thanks.

I never said it was "fixed" for the Yanks. I said it would be "fixed" for a major market team. Which BOSTON falls into!! :shakeno: :shakeno:

So no apology! LOL

MikeO
11-11-2006, 02:49 PM
So you still think the Red Sox should have offered Pedro the contract the Mets did? Sorry but the Sox were 100% right on that move.

Orlando Cabrera is really the only guy that I wish was still on the team and possibly Derek Lowe (but I'm not sure if he would have been as good due to his personal problems).

Damon is the only guy that you can make an arguement about but like Pedro, the Sox were worried he'd turn into a shell of his former self very quickly. So let's talk about the Damon move this time next year.

They should have kept Damon out of respect!! Seriously. He was one of the main emotional leaders on the team that finally won the world series after 86 years. And it isn't like the 2 sides were THAT far apart! lol

MikeO
11-11-2006, 02:51 PM
from buster olney's blog, either way it seems the redsox could win on this


"If Boras and Matsuzaka balk at this and threaten to go back to Japan, the Red Sox could contact other teams and conduct a trade auction and deal the rights to negotiate with him.
Say the Mets bid something in the range of $28 million for Matsuzaka, in their pursuit of a power pitcher. The Red Sox could ask the Mets for reliever Aaron Heilman and a prospect -- maybe Lastings Milledge, maybe a pitcher like Mike Pelfrey or Philip Humber, maybe a lesser player -- in return for Matsuzaka. And the Red Sox could also ask the Mets to forward something close to the posting fee they bid.
The Mets might say no; they might say yes. They need a power pitcher. For Heilman, a prospect and at least a large portion of Boston's posting fee, they could have Matsuzaka. The Red Sox, on the other hand, could pay the difference in the posting fee and get someone like Heilman and more prospects in return. In the end, they would effectively be purchasing talent from other organizations, and at the same time, keep Matsuka away from the Yankees, at a time when he would be a perfect puzzle piece for the rival Bronx Bombers."

Do you think a team will give up a prospect and $$$ for the right just to talk to this guy though?? I mean it could happen.......but with these japanesse guys it's really hit or miss!! I can't see that happening but I guess anything is possible

Ray Finkle
11-11-2006, 03:30 PM
They should have kept Damon out of respect!! Seriously. He was one of the main emotional leaders on the team that finally won the world series after 86 years. And it isn't like the 2 sides were THAT far apart! lol

So put half the blame on Damon then. They made him a fair offer. They didn't low ball him. 4 years for 40 million, just what they gave Varitek (who was also one of the main emotional leaders on the team). Damon just wanted to make the most amount of money which the Sox didn't offer so he went to the team that did.

At least the Sox gave Damon a serious offer unlike Pedro and Lowe who were both more important to the team's success than Damon was.

Ray Finkle
11-11-2006, 03:32 PM
Do you think a team will give up a prospect and $$$ for the right just to talk to this guy though?? I mean it could happen.......but with these japanesse guys it's really hit or miss!! I can't see that happening but I guess anything is possible

It happened with Irabu. Prospects were exchanged and money so it could happen however I doubt it will.

FIN-IN-RI
11-11-2006, 04:22 PM
So put half the blame on Damon then. They made him a fair offer. They didn't low ball him. 4 years for 40 million, just what they gave Varitek (who was also one of the main emotional leaders on the team). Damon just wanted to make the most amount of money which the Sox didn't offer so he went to the team that did.

At least the Sox gave Damon a serious offer unlike Pedro and Lowe who were both more important to the team's success than Damon was.

Yeah it's not like they short-changed Damon.. both parties had a share in regards to him leaving.

PressCoverage
11-11-2006, 08:20 PM
I know you will think it's just me hating on the Sox, but

you're right... it sounds like it, because that's what it is... just admit it, and we can all move forward... i hate the yankees, i admit it... :D

anyhow, as to your original antagonistic post, please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting that because of the one (1) time we actually outbid you on a player, that we're REMOTELY close to your heroes in terms of greed... besides, we dont even have him yet...

nonetheless, when the time comes that we, the second highest payroll, pony up the extra $80-something million to match the Corporation, then perhaps you can put us in the same "no excuse" stratosphere.... until then, we're still just as good as the Corporation, at 33% less the cost.... i can only imagine what our front office would put together with the extra $80M... the division would be over by late July....

ya...

RWhitney014
11-11-2006, 08:24 PM
I never said it was "fixed" for the Yanks. I said it would be "fixed" for a major market team. Which BOSTON falls into!! :shakeno: :shakeno:

So no apology! LOL

"Odds are Boras is going to say, he really wants to be in NY or Seattle or a major market with a japanese culture close by"

Last time I checked, Boston does not have a huge Japanese culture.

You're just ridiculous. You always have these grand conspiracy theories that Selig rigged this or this owner is holding back that or blah blah blah. You have absolutely no ability to admit when you're wrong, and the above quote proves it.

MikeO
11-11-2006, 08:32 PM
"Odds are Boras is going to say, he really wants to be in NY or Seattle or a major market with a japanese culture close by"

Last time I checked, Boston does not have a huge Japanese culture.

You're just ridiculous. You always have these grand conspiracy theories that Selig rigged this or this owner is holding back that or blah blah blah. You have absolutely no ability to admit when you're wrong, and the above quote proves it.

Boston is the seafood capital of the united states. And a japanese guy doesn't like fish or seafood??? :shakeno: :shakeno: He isn't going to feel at home in a costal city the size of Boston. Sure there is a japanese culture in Boston.


Not to mention Boston is a large market not to mention I never said Boston didn't have a chance!! :shakeno: :shakeno: I said teams like Texas, Chicago...etc never had a shot.

And I never claimed Selig has RIGGED anything. If your goign to throw out that lie (claim) back it up with some proof. A link. Thank you

MikeO
11-11-2006, 08:33 PM
i can only imagine what our front office would put together with the extra $80M... the division would be over by late July....

ya...

You can't even finish in 2nd place anymore with your payroll now you think you have the divison wrapped up in July by spending more money :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: . How did Edgar, Clement, and Coco work out for ya??!!! Yeah, keep spending money.

Can we save this post and thread.........thank you!!!! :lol: :lol:

This one's a keeper

brandon1986
11-12-2006, 01:45 AM
if this is true i dont want to hear redsox fans bitching about yankee money if they are going to spend somewhere in the range of 90-100 million dollars for a pitcher that has never thrown a pitch in the majors

i wanted the guy but that is a lot of money

i would rather take the money and go after zito

Ray Finkle
11-12-2006, 01:58 AM
if this is true i dont want to hear redsox fans bitching about yankee money if they are going to spend somewhere in the range of 90-100 million dollars for a pitcher that has never thrown a pitch in the majors

i wanted the guy but that is a lot of money

i would rather take the money and go after zito

What Red Sox fan is here complaining about the Yankees' payroll or how much they spend? This is the 2nd time in this thread where it's been brought up. And personally I think it's just a typical Yankee fan put down because they're mad they lost out on this guy.

The Sox HAD to spend the money to try and sign him because every team would have liked to have this guy. Personally I think the whole bidding process is dumb and the guy (along with other players from other countries that are FAs) should go into the draft, but that's a different story/topic all together.

PressCoverage
11-12-2006, 02:41 AM
You can't even finish in 2nd place anymore with your payroll now you think you have the divison wrapped up in July by spending more money :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: . How did Edgar, Clement, and Coco work out for ya??!!! Yeah, keep spending money.

Can we save this post and thread.........thank you!!!! :lol: :lol:

This one's a keeper

what do you have there, 3 names? LOL..... shall i list the dozen or so busts you guys have shot your wad on the past few years who have underperformed?

we finish third one year, and it's "can't finish better than third anymore???"...
were you in drama in high school?

one billion in player salary and counting since your last title?...

your heroes finally wise up and get a few 22-yo pitchers and you're beating your chest? ... wow...

sieg heil the corporation!!! :sidelol: :tongue: :lol: :D

RWhitney014
11-12-2006, 02:48 AM
Boston is the seafood capital of the united states. And a japanese guy doesn't like fish or seafood??? :shakeno: :shakeno: He isn't going to feel at home in a costal city the size of Boston. Sure there is a japanese culture in Boston.


Not to mention Boston is a large market not to mention I never said Boston didn't have a chance!! :shakeno: :shakeno: I said teams like Texas, Chicago...etc never had a shot.

And I never claimed Selig has RIGGED anything. If your goign to throw out that lie (claim) back it up with some proof. A link. Thank you

Wow, getting to cultural profiling now, huh? Boston has a lot of fish, and Japanese people like fish, therefore a Japanese pitcher would be happy in Boston. Would he automatically be happy in Tampa Bay? Houston? Minneapolis? Those are all on major bodies of water with plenty of seafood in him? That is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm surprised you're sinking that low to try to make a point.

You were claiming that Boras could control where Matsuzaka would end up, and for that to happen, someone in the league would have to be aware of it. The Selig example is just metonymy for the league. I guess I have to be specific to the letter just like you are every time.

King Felix
11-12-2006, 02:53 AM
he shoulda went to the mariners.

RWhitney014
11-12-2006, 03:46 AM
he shoulda went to the mariners.

He hasn't gone anywhere. And the Mariners reportedly didn't put a bid in on him, so blame them, not him.

They're saving their bullets for Schmidt or Zito, though. Argue the merits of that choice all you want, but it's certainly less expensive and less risky, even though it doesn't have as big of an upside.

King Felix
11-12-2006, 04:04 AM
He hasn't gone anywhere. And the Mariners reportedly didn't put a bid in on him, so blame them, not him.

They're saving their bullets for Schmidt or Zito, though. Argue the merits of that choice all you want, but it's certainly less expensive and less risky, even though it doesn't have as big of an upside.yeah i should have said. mariners should have atleast tried for him. but yeah schmidt said that he'd really like to sign with seattle. zito, the mariners have no chance.

MikeO
11-12-2006, 10:07 AM
You were claiming that Boras could control where Matsuzaka would end up, and for that to happen, someone in the league would have to be aware of it. The Selig example is just metonymy for the league. I guess I have to be specific to the letter just like you are every time.

Boston was on the list!! :shakeno: My god, NY, Boston, Seattle, Baltimore......those were the teams the kid had no problem playing for. THis isn't like Boston came out of nowhere!! :shakeno: WHy is that so hard to understand!! Boras played those teams agaisnt each other and he got one to pay big money! BOSTON!!

MikeO
11-12-2006, 10:08 AM
your heroes finally wise up and get a few 22-yo pitchers and you're beating your chest? ... wow...



Im not beating my chest I just said it was a good trade :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

Where am I beating my chest. I have even said 2 of these guys will probably be gone by July in another trade!

MikeO
11-12-2006, 10:14 AM
yeah i should have said. mariners should have atleast tried for him. but yeah schmidt said that he'd really like to sign with seattle. zito, the mariners have no chance.

Schmidt to Seattle has been talked about for almost a year now.

One thing to remember, the Texas Rangers have a ton of money to spend. Don't be shocked if they come out of nowhere and break the bank for 1 pitcher.

Although if they trade Texieria for Bonderman......then they won't need to.

RWhitney014
11-12-2006, 07:48 PM
Boston was on the list!! :shakeno: My god, NY, Boston, Seattle, Baltimore......those were the teams the kid had no problem playing for. THis isn't like Boston came out of nowhere!! :shakeno: WHy is that so hard to understand!! Boras played those teams agaisnt each other and he got one to pay big money! BOSTON!!

Who said Boston was a surprise?

Matsuzaka never supplied a list of teams he was willing to play for. You keep changing your argument either way.

My whole point in this situation is that Boras did not control which team he went to. The Red Sox both wanted him and wanted to prevent him from going to the Yankees. Ray's point about the Sox gaining a foothold in Japan like the Mariners and Yankees with Ichiro and Matsui is also a very good point. So they paid to get him.

The other interesting thing I saw today was that Boston is allowed to trade him in what would be similar to the NBA's sign-and-trade policy. They can not trade his rights (if they're the ones who get them), but they can sign him to say, a 5/$55 contract and then trade that to a Texas or something for an absolute king's ransom.

MikeO
11-12-2006, 09:34 PM
Who said Boston was a surprise?

Matsuzaka never supplied a list of teams he was willing to play for. You keep changing your argument either way.

My whole point in this situation is that Boras did not control which team he went to. The Red Sox both wanted him and wanted to prevent him from going to the Yankees. Ray's point about the Sox gaining a foothold in Japan like the Mariners and Yankees with Ichiro and Matsui is also a very good point. So they paid to get him.

The other interesting thing I saw today was that Boston is allowed to trade him in what would be similar to the NBA's sign-and-trade policy. They can not trade his rights (if they're the ones who get them), but they can sign him to say, a 5/$55 contract and then trade that to a Texas or something for an absolute king's ransom.

Boras did control it!!!!!! Boras had no problem with this guy going to Boston because he knew it would be a good fit. But if the Rangers came calling, probably talking to Boras to gauge interest before placing a bid......Boras might have said, hey...this kid doesn't want to be stuck in hillbilly Texas cause it might not fit him. So, don't throw in some high bid cause he might not sign with ya. On the other hand he may have told the Sox, Mets, Yanks......go crazy he has no problem playing in your city. That's controling where the kid is going!!!

Why is this so hard to understand..........BORAS IS RUNNING THE WHOLE SHOW!!! :shakeno: :shakeno: If you DON'T believe that your naive!

MikeO
11-12-2006, 09:39 PM
and this doesn't give BOSTON a foothold in Japan either or do anything for them over there in my opinion.

The kid plays once every 5 days. Thats about 30 games a year if healthy. And he may only go 5 or 6 innings on an average day.

In Japan they can air 162 Yankee games and 162 Mariners games because Ichiro and Matsui play everyday. With a pitcher its different and I don't think Japanesse TV people will spend money to air a full season of Red Sox games for a guy who plays once a week. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I am. Especially when in Japan they have their own Baseball leagues and what not.

Maybe they will air 1 Red Sox game a week when the kid pitches, but they probably do that now anyway or something similar. I don't see Boston making big money off this overseas. I really don't

Ray Finkle
11-12-2006, 09:43 PM
and this doesn't give BOSTON a foothold in Japan either or do anything for them over there in my opinion.

The kid plays once every 5 days. Thats about 30 games a year if healthy. And he may only go 5 or 6 innings on an average day.

In Japan they can air 162 Yankee games and 162 Mariners games because Ichiro and Matsui play everyday. With a pitcher its different and I don't think Japanesse TV people will spend money to air a full season of Red Sox games for a guy who plays once a week. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I am. Especially when in Japan they have their own Baseball leagues and what not.

Maybe they will air 1 Red Sox game a week when the kid pitches, but they probably do that now anyway or something similar. I don't see Boston making big money off this overseas. I really don't

Nomo did it for the Dodgers and he wasn't nearly the talent Matsuzaka is according to all reports. I remember watching the Little League World Series back in 1993 or 1994 and EVERY Japanese kid's favorite team was the Dodgers because of Nomo.

Now Matsui and Ichiro are clearly bigger names than Matsuzaka but the Red Sox are probably going to be the 3rd most popular MLB in Japan in the Sox end up signing him. Which will give them a foothold in Japan to get other players to come and sign in Boston.

Just look at how many Japanese pitchers have been in the Dodger system since Nomo, it's not a coincidence.

Bottom line is by signing Matsuzaka it helps the Sox more than hurts them in the Japanese market.

MikeO
11-12-2006, 09:49 PM
Nomo did it for the Dodgers and he wasn't nearly the talent Matsuzaka is according to all reports. I remember watching the Little League World Series back in 1993 or 1994 and EVERY Japanese kid's favorite team was the Dodgers because of Nomo.

Now Matsui and Ichiro are clearly bigger names than Matsuzaka but the Red Sox are probably going to be the 3rd most popular MLB in Japan in the Sox end up signing him. Which will give them a foothold in Japan to get other players to come and sign in Boston.

Just look at how many Japanese pitchers have been in the Dodger system since Nomo, it's not a coincidence.

Bottom line is by signing Matsuzaka it helps the Sox more than hurts them in the Japanese market.

We are talking 2 different things I think.

Are we talking a foothold to make money in Japan?? or a foothold to open up the franchise for Jap players?

Cause sure it will open up the Red Sox franchise for other Jap players down the road. Of course, no doubt. But it won't give you a foothold in Japan to add revenue and make $$$$$$$ over there and that is what I am talking about

spydertl79
11-12-2006, 09:56 PM
He should be a dick and refuse their offer then retire.

Ray Finkle
11-12-2006, 10:02 PM
We are talking 2 different things I think.

Are we talking a foothold to make money in Japan?? or a foothold to open up the franchise for Jap players?

Cause sure it will open up the Red Sox franchise for other Jap players down the road. Of course, no doubt. But it won't give you a foothold in Japan to add revenue and make $$$$$$$ over there and that is what I am talking about

Oh I think it will do both. I think it will certainly get other Japanese players to give the Sox a strong look.

The Sox will also get revenue because anytime Matsuzaka pitches it will be shown in Japan. Maybe every Red Sox game will be now. Plus add to the fact that people will buy Matsuzaka shirts, jeresys as well as other Red Sox stuff. I think Matsuzaka will also bring in Japanese sponsors too for the Sox. They will certainly make money on him. Maybe not as much as Ichiro or Matsui bring in for the Mariners/Yankees but something is better than nothing.

Ray Finkle
11-12-2006, 10:02 PM
He should be a dick and refuse their offer then retire.

The Sox would get their money back so it would be a moot point.

MikeO
11-12-2006, 10:06 PM
Oh I think it will do both. I think it will certainly get other Japanese players to give the Sox a strong look.

The Sox will also get revenue because anytime Matsuzaka pitches it will be shown in Japan. Maybe every Red Sox game will be now. Plus add to the fact that people will buy Matsuzaka shirts, jeresys as well as other Red Sox stuff. I think Matsuzaka will also bring in Japanese sponsors too for the Sox. They will certainly make money on him. Maybe not as much as Ichiro or Matsui bring in for the Mariners/Yankees but something is better than nothing.

Well if its not at leaset $45 mill brought in then nothing is better than something. You can't operate in a loss on just 1 player with the kind of numbers that are being spent on him. This isn't chump change, in hard real cold hard cash being dished out by Boston, he is going to be close to a $20 mill a year man when you add everything together.

MikeO
11-12-2006, 10:07 PM
The Sox would get their money back so it would be a moot point.

Well it won't happen. But I thought if he does refuse the team doesn't get their money back?

Ray Finkle
11-12-2006, 10:07 PM
Well if its not at leaset $45 mill brought in then nothing is better than something. You can't operate in a loss on just 1 player with the kind of numbers that are being spent on him. This isn't chump change, in hard real cold hard cash being dished out by Boston, he is going to be close to a $20 mill a year man when you add everything together.

How do you know the Sox can't make back the 45 million on this kid?

GreenMonster
11-12-2006, 10:08 PM
Well it won't happen. But I thought if he does refuse the team doesn't get their money back?

Nope this is very low risk for the Sox, no deal means all that money comes back to us..

Ray Finkle
11-12-2006, 10:09 PM
Well it won't happen. But I thought if he does refuse the team doesn't get their money back?

The Sox have 30 days from the time the Japanese team announces they're accepting the bid. Once 30 days is up, if no deal is made Matsuzaka will be returned back to the Japanese team and the Sox would get their money back.

brandon1986
11-12-2006, 11:05 PM
What Red Sox fan is here complaining about the Yankees' payroll or how much they spend? This is the 2nd time in this thread where it's been brought up. And personally I think it's just a typical Yankee fan put down because they're mad they lost out on this guy.

The Sox HAD to spend the money to try and sign him because every team would have liked to have this guy. Personally I think the whole bidding process is dumb and the guy (along with other players from other countries that are FAs) should go into the draft, but that's a different story/topic all together.

not saying anyone on here, it is everytime i talk to red sox fans ( i am from new hampshire) all i hear is the yankees got this guy because of money and the red sox could not compete because they dont have the money to

i am not mad that the red sox might get to negotiate with him, if they placed the bid that won then it is congrats to them they paid the money

the red sox needed to make a splash and they might have done it

i just dont want to hear the red sox fans talk about not having the money to compete when they are willing to pay 100 million dollars for a pitcher

FinsNYanksFan13
11-13-2006, 01:56 AM
The Red Sox will make all of the 45 million back in 3 years with a television deal in Japan. This was a no brainer for the Red Sox and they definitely struck first blood this off-season with this move. There's no way you can hate on this deal other then to say this kid's arm could fall off and he could suffer an injury. But at the end of the day you can say that about any pitcher. All I know is that some how, some way, the Yankees need to get another top of the line starter to go with Wang. Re-signing Moose means nothing because even if they re-sign him their stuck with one ace and a bunch of 4 and 5 starters. If the Yankees want to match some other teams staff's their going to have to get another ace!

MikeO
11-13-2006, 11:24 AM
The Red Sox will make all of the 45 million back in 3 years with a television deal in Japan. This was a no brainer for the Red Sox and they definitely struck first blood this off-season with this move. There's no way you can hate on this deal other then to say this kid's arm could fall off and he could suffer an injury. But at the end of the day you can say that about any pitcher. All I know is that some how, some way, the Yankees need to get another top of the line starter to go with Wang. Re-signing Moose means nothing because even if they re-sign him their stuck with one ace and a bunch of 4 and 5 starters. If the Yankees want to match some other teams staff's their going to have to get another ace!

I don't see this kid getting Boston a TV deal in Japan when he only plays once every 5 days. We will see though

RWhitney014
11-13-2006, 01:18 PM
I don't see this kid getting Boston a TV deal in Japan when he only plays once every 5 days. We will see though

Two words: Fernando Valenzuela.

SpurzN703
11-13-2006, 03:36 PM
Yawn. Yankees and Red Sox buy the whole league again. I love baseball :rolleyes:

DeathStar
11-13-2006, 03:51 PM
The Red Sox bid $42 million for the right to negotiate with prized Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, sources told ESPN's Peter Gammons. Boston's bid far exceeded any other team's offer.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2660428

Ray Finkle
11-13-2006, 05:13 PM
Good article on Matsuzaka: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/12/despite_the_dollars_red_sox_pursuit_of_matsuzaka_makes_sense/

Best part of the article:

"Nonetheless, the Sox have been preparing for the marketing bonanza, which would be Matsuzaka, for weeks. The Sox would likely attract a huge contingent of Japanese media, seeing that they already blanket Hideki Matsui in New York and Ichiro Suzuki in Seattle.

The Sox would probably be able to sell Matsuzaka's Red Sox image in Japan in a big-time way to help make up for the exorbitant posting fee."

So there you go, the Sox think that Matsuzaka will basically pay for his own posting fee and then some. Plus get a foothold in the Japanese players market.

Phinz4Life
11-14-2006, 11:38 AM
Still, they overpaid. $42 million for nothing guaranteed.

And BTW, to put things into my own perspective with their rotation:

Schilling - Tail end of his career, now injury prone. Can he make it up to 200 innings as the "ace" of the rotation?

Beckett - Dude couldn't locate his curveball to save his life, and the Yankee hitters just sat on his fastball and tore him apart. Doesn't scare me.

Matsuzaka - Wanted him in pinstripes, but theres a lot of questions with him. Even if the Yankees did get him, I'd still be crossing my fingers about some of this stuff. He's never pitched in the AL, was used to a six day rest period, and you have to notice he went from 200+ innings last year to 180 this year. Wear and tear?

STILL. I wanted him, and I still think he's going to be good.

Papelbon - Lets see him work on his other pitches. Can't throw a fastball six innings straight.

Wakefield - How much longer does he have?

I'm playing the role of the typical Yankee fans here. I'm not discounting these pitchers, I'm just bringing up some negatives.

MikeO
11-14-2006, 12:40 PM
Good article on Matsuzaka: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/12/despite_the_dollars_red_sox_pursuit_of_matsuzaka_makes_sense/

Best part of the article:

"Nonetheless, the Sox have been preparing for the marketing bonanza, which would be Matsuzaka, for weeks. The Sox would likely attract a huge contingent of Japanese media, seeing that they already blanket Hideki Matsui in New York and Ichiro Suzuki in Seattle.

The Sox would probably be able to sell Matsuzaka's Red Sox image in Japan in a big-time way to help make up for the exorbitant posting fee."

So there you go, the Sox think that Matsuzaka will basically pay for his own posting fee and then some. Plus get a foothold in the Japanese players market.

I love this :sidelol: :sidelol: , Sox fans justifying ways for spending $100 mill on 1 pitcher.

So, if Matsui brings in $50 mill or so from Japan through merchandise and TV deals. Why does everyone cry about the Yanks $200 mill pay roll. It's really only $150 because they have all of this extra money coming in from Japan. The payroll is partly paying for itself. What's the big deal then?? :confused: :lol: :lol:

MikeO
11-14-2006, 02:06 PM
Final Bidding was.....

1) Red Sox $42 mill
2) Mets $38 mill
3) Yanks $32 mill

Ray Finkle
11-14-2006, 06:41 PM
I love this :sidelol: :sidelol: , Sox fans justifying ways for spending $100 mill on 1 pitcher.

So, if Matsui brings in $50 mill or so from Japan through merchandise and TV deals. Why does everyone cry about the Yanks $200 mill pay roll. It's really only $150 because they have all of this extra money coming in from Japan. The payroll is partly paying for itself. What's the big deal then?? :confused: :lol: :lol:

Again what Red Sox fan is crying about the Yankees' payroll?

It has nothing to do with justifying spending 100 million on one pitcher it's the truth. The Sox will make back the money they spend on the bid for Matsuzaka just on marketing and sponsorish deals only.

The Yankees get I believe 20 million for having that Japanese sign in the OF alone. Add in having the YES network in Japan along with all the Matsui and other Yankee t-shirt, hats etc the Yankees are probably making 100 million a year off of Matsui.

EDIT: A friend told me that there was a Japanese baseball expert on WFAN today and said that the Red Sox will make the money they bid on Matsuzaka back before the season even started. And in Japan right now everyone is trying to buy Red Sox stuff because Matsuzaka is a hero in Japan and is as popular as Ichiro and Matsui.

PhinSoldia
11-14-2006, 06:49 PM
i LOVE baseball but i feel that no player is worth that type of money...and if there was to be a salary cap it would be the end of the yankees and the redsox...and for

FinsNYanksFan13
11-14-2006, 08:56 PM
Again what Red Sox fan is crying about the Yankees' payroll?

It has nothing to do with justifying spending 100 million on one pitcher it's the truth. The Sox will make back the money they spend on the bid for Matsuzaka just on marketing and sponsorish deals only.

The Yankees get I believe 20 million for having that Japanese sign in the OF alone. Add in having the YES network in Japan along with all the Matsui and other Yankee t-shirt, hats etc the Yankees are probably making 100 million a year off of Matsui.

EDIT: A friend told me that there was a Japanese baseball expert on WFAN today and said that the Red Sox will make the money they bid on Matsuzaka back before the season even started. And in Japan right now everyone is trying to buy Red Sox stuff because Matsuzaka is a hero in Japan and is as popular as Ichiro and Matsui.


Destrade from ESPN who played a few years in Japan was the expert on WFAN today lol so take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure he knows about Japan more then you or I but I'm not sure he knows about the economics so take it for what it's worth although the Red Sox are going to make out nice on this deal. Not as nice as the Mariners or Yankees do because the kid's a pitcher but they'll make some money off the deal!

Ray Finkle
11-14-2006, 09:17 PM
Destrade from ESPN who played a few years in Japan was the expert on WFAN today lol so take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure he knows about Japan more then you or I but I'm not sure he knows about the economics so take it for what it's worth although the Red Sox are going to make out nice on this deal. Not as nice as the Mariners or Yankees do because the kid's a pitcher but they'll make some money off the deal!

Honestly I didn't hear the interview myself and I wrote 2nd hand information, so that may or may not be true.

RWhitney014
11-14-2006, 09:43 PM
Final Bidding was.....

1) Red Sox $51.1 mill
2) Mets $38 mill
3) Yanks $32 mill

I think that's what you meant to say. That's a lot of dough.

Ray Finkle
11-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Wow over 50 million. This kid better be a stud.

NJFINSFAN1
11-14-2006, 11:29 PM
Wow over 50 million. This kid better be a stud.

Man, all I can say is the Red Sox's can never complain again about over spending teams.

51.1 million?????????:eek:

Brown42000
11-14-2006, 11:35 PM
They need starting pitching and I am glad they went all out for him he has proved he can pitch in the Olympics the WBC and was dominant in his own league.

Brown42000
11-14-2006, 11:35 PM
He also throws some pitch called the Jiro Pitch and I can't wait to see what it looks like.

brandon1986
11-15-2006, 12:16 AM
He also throws some pitch called the Jiro Pitch and I can't wait to see what it looks like.

go on youtube you can see it, it is a slider in japan it is called the gyro ball

MikeO
11-15-2006, 12:55 AM
Wow over 50 million. This kid better be a stud.

After the contract he will be costing Boston on avg of $20 mill a year (when everything is factored in). For a guy who plays once every five days!!!

amazing!!!!

DonShula84
11-15-2006, 01:59 AM
Spending more money for the rights to negotiate with one player than some clubs spend on their entire payroll is a little ridiculous. These players should just enter the draft like European basketball players do and if The Sox or Yankees want him bad enough work a trade to get the top pick.

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 02:07 AM
Spending more money for the rights to negotiate with one player than some clubs spend on their entire payroll is a little ridiculous. These players should just enter the draft like European basketball players do and if The Sox or Yankees want him bad enough work a trade to get the top pick.

Oh I 100% agree. I've said it earlier in this thread. I don't think you're allowed to trade draft picks in baseball like other sports but I think if you can't it's something MLB should think about.

MikeO
11-15-2006, 02:10 AM
Oh I 100% agree. I've said it earlier in this thread. I don't think you're allowed to trade draft picks in baseball like other sports but I think if you can't it's something MLB should think about.

ya can't trade picks for many reasons. The main one is cause then you will just have the big market teams trade a late 1st round pick and $3 mill for the 1st overall pick. And have shaddy stuff like that.

Or it would get worse, trade a 13th round pick and $500,000 for a 2nd round pick. Just total insanity would break out.

MikeO
11-15-2006, 02:19 AM
Spending more money for the rights to negotiate with one player than some clubs spend on their entire payroll is a little ridiculous. These players should just enter the draft like European basketball players do and if The Sox or Yankees want him bad enough work a trade to get the top pick.

I have no problem with this system of a silent auction. I would tweak it. Make it so a team can't bid on a guy just to block a player from going somewhere else with no intention of signing him to fair market value. Because that isn't fair to the player.

(I won't ues Bos/NY for this example) FOR EXAMPLE:: say the Dodgers want a Jap player bad. But the SF Giants throw out a $55 mill bid, but they are iffy on the kid, but they just don't want LA to get him. So, SF wins the bidding..... they talk to him, throw him some lowball insulting offer. The kid refuses...and is FORCED to go back to Japan. The only one who gets hurt in this is the kid. That isn't fair to let the teams screw with players life's like this.

I would make it so the high bid gets 1 month to talk to the player. If the sides can't reach a deal, then another round of bidding takes place with the first team no longer in the running. And the first team losing HALF of their original bid. This will prevent teams from just bidding to BLOCK another team. Because if you bid $51 mill and DON'T sign the kid, you just gave away $25.5 mill for NOTHING!!!!

RWhitney014
11-15-2006, 03:06 AM
I have no problem with this system of a silent auction. I would tweak it. Make it so a team can't bid on a guy just to block a player from going somewhere else with no intention of signing him to fair market value. Because that isn't fair to the player.

(I won't ues Bos/NY for this example) FOR EXAMPLE:: say the Dodgers want a Jap player bad. But the SF Giants throw out a $55 mill bid, but they are iffy on the kid, but they just don't want LA to get him. So, SF wins the bidding..... they talk to him, throw him some lowball insulting offer. The kid refuses...and is FORCED to go back to Japan. The only one who gets hurt in this is the kid. That isn't fair to let the teams screw with players life's like this.

I would make it so the high bid gets 1 month to talk to the player. If the sides can't reach a deal, then another round of bidding takes place with the first team no longer in the running. And the first team losing HALF of their original bid. This will prevent teams from just bidding to BLOCK another team. Because if you bid $51 mill and DON'T sign the kid, you just gave away $25.5 mill for NOTHING!!!!

I agree with your last part. I definitely think there needs to be a cost to doing this. Even though we're talking much smaller sums of money, in the Rule 5 Draft, it costs 50K to pick a player, and if he doesn't stick, you return him to his original team for 25K, so you still lost some money. No reason why they can't institute that. This bidding process is going to become more and more common, and as it develops they're going to come up with rules to govern it. This is still one of the first times teams have done this.

DonShula84
11-15-2006, 05:22 AM
I have no problem with this system of a silent auction. I would tweak it. Make it so a team can't bid on a guy just to block a player from going somewhere else with no intention of signing him to fair market value. Because that isn't fair to the player.

(I won't ues Bos/NY for this example) FOR EXAMPLE:: say the Dodgers want a Jap player bad. But the SF Giants throw out a $55 mill bid, but they are iffy on the kid, but they just don't want LA to get him. So, SF wins the bidding..... they talk to him, throw him some lowball insulting offer. The kid refuses...and is FORCED to go back to Japan. The only one who gets hurt in this is the kid. That isn't fair to let the teams screw with players life's like this.

I would make it so the high bid gets 1 month to talk to the player. If the sides can't reach a deal, then another round of bidding takes place with the first team no longer in the running. And the first team losing HALF of their original bid. This will prevent teams from just bidding to BLOCK another team. Because if you bid $51 mill and DON'T sign the kid, you just gave away $25.5 mill for NOTHING!!!!

Interesting idea, seems to make sense to me. Just wondering, do you think that might be what the Red Sox are doing to block the Yankees? Or do you think they really want this guy? Seems to me that if you pulled something like that it would only hurt your chances of dealing with the Japanese teams down the road, but I could still see it happening.

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 10:27 AM
Interesting idea, seems to make sense to me. Just wondering, do you think that might be what the Red Sox are doing to block the Yankees? Or do you think they really want this guy? Seems to me that if you pulled something like that it would only hurt your chances of dealing with the Japanese teams down the road, but I could still see it happening.

I think the Red Sox definitely want this guy. Gammons was saying that the Red Sox had been talking to Japanese teams and scouts as far back as last winter to get a scouting report on Matsuzaka.

And MikeO, that's an interesting theory. The only problem I see with it is, example the Sox bid 51.1 million on Matsuzaka but the kid really wants to pitch for the Yankees so he keeps rejecting the deals so he has a shot to play for the Yankees in round 2. Of course there would have to be rules etc but it is a very interesting thought.

MikeO
11-15-2006, 11:39 AM
I think the Red Sox definitely want this guy. Gammons was saying that the Red Sox had been talking to Japanese teams and scouts as far back as last winter to get a scouting report on Matsuzaka.

And MikeO, that's an interesting theory. The only problem I see with it is, example the Sox bid 51.1 million on Matsuzaka but the kid really wants to pitch for the Yankees so he keeps rejecting the deals so he has a shot to play for the Yankees in round 2. Of course there would have to be rules etc but it is a very interesting thought.

set it up where if the player doesn't sign with the original team that won the bidding, he must pay a penalty of some sort.

This FORCES the team who won the first bidding and the player to make it work out.

Chavez Ravine
11-15-2006, 11:53 AM
wow for the jack they'll throw at this guy they could have signed zito and schmidt

Schmidt 4 years 51 (maybe bump it up a bit)
Zito 4 Years 64

you couple that with Schilling, Papelbon, Beckett, Schmidt, Zito.

You're golden!


(of couse this is assuming they would sign with boston:wink:)

SpurzN703
11-15-2006, 12:05 PM
Final Bidding was.....

1) Red Sox $42 mill
2) Mets $38 mill
3) Yanks $32 mill

Florida's payroll for the whole team was around 15 million. That shows how sad baseball is when 3 of the "popular" teams have more money then an entire franchise just to "talk" to someone.

GreenMonster
11-15-2006, 12:09 PM
set it up where if the player doesn't sign with the original team that won the bidding, he must pay a penalty of some sort.

This FORCES the team who won the first bidding and the player to make it work out.


Except that the fact that the player isn't a free agent.. So maybe they don't need to redo the signing part, but the bidding has to change.. Like MikeO said you can basically block any deal now by offering a ton of money at the bid, and then an awful low-ball contract to the player.. The reason you can do this is the player isn't a total free agent.. Had the Siebu Lions not accepted the bid, Matsuzaka would have gone back to Japan and become a free agent in 2 years.. You can't just allow 30 teams to talk to a player that isn't a free agent, on a team not even in your league about a contract.. The bidding process is what must change..

Motion
11-15-2006, 12:18 PM
Good Read!

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6173822

:chuckle:

MikeO
11-15-2006, 12:30 PM
Good Read!

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6173822

:chuckle:

I said that a week ago when this story broke.

And if the Mets go out and sign Zito AND Soriano and add $150 to their payroll.........they are in the penthouse with us as well.

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 01:05 PM
wow for the jack they'll throw at this guy they could have signed zito and schmidt

Schmidt 4 years 51 (maybe bump it up a bit)
Zito 4 Years 64

you couple that with Schilling, Papelbon, Beckett, Schmidt, Zito.

You're golden!


(of couse this is assuming they would sign with boston:wink:)

No thanks I'd rather have Matsuzaka than a beat up career NL pitcher in Schmidt and Zito. And no it's not the homer in my talking it's because I'm not high on Zito.

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 01:09 PM
Florida's payroll for the whole team was around 15 million. That shows how sad baseball is when 3 of the "popular" teams have more money then an entire franchise just to "talk" to someone.

It is sad in many ways and maybe there should be a cap. But both NY teams and the Red Sox make a ton of money each year. The Yankees had 4 million fans attend games this year, the Sox have sold out every home game for the past 3 years both teams (and now the Mets) have huge TV contracts. Yes they're lucky to be located in big markets but they make the money to spend. You can't fault them for spending the money they make.

Like MikeO said, I believe its the Twins owner that's the richest owner in baseball yet he doesn't pump any money into the team. Yes some teams are doomed to fail because of location and division (Tampa Bay and KC come to mind).

Chavez Ravine
11-15-2006, 01:30 PM
No thanks I'd rather have Matsuzaka than a beat up career NL pitcher in Schmidt and Zito. And no it's not the homer in my talking it's because I'm not high on Zito.

I'm not high on Zito either, I like schmidt quite a bit though.

I just wonder if those two aren't a better use of the money? That was my only point.

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 01:33 PM
I'm not high on Zito either, I like schmidt quite a bit though.

I just wonder if those two aren't a better use of the money? That was my only point.

Hey it's possible but I doubt any time could get both pitchers to sign in the same year. Only time will tell. Schmidt hasn't been the same pitcher since 2003, his arm/shoulder worries me a lot, plus the whole AL/NL difference thing.

MikeO
11-15-2006, 02:03 PM
It is sad in many ways and maybe there should be a cap. But both NY teams and the Red Sox make a ton of money each year. The Yankees had 4 million fans attend games this year, the Sox have sold out every home game for the past 3 years both teams (and now the Mets) have huge TV contracts. Yes they're lucky to be located in big markets but they make the money to spend. You can't fault them for spending the money they make.

Like MikeO said, I believe its the Twins owner that's the richest owner in baseball yet he doesn't pump any money into the team. Yes some teams are doomed to fail because of location and division (Tampa Bay and KC come to mind).

These baseball owners can't be trusted. They are all liars and are playing the system.

The Twins owner is the richest out of every MLB owner, yet he crys poor

The Oakland A's cry poor, but then go spend $300-$400 mill OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET to build a new stadium in San Jose

The city of Detriot for years was BIG market in Hockey and SMALL market in baseball.........you figure that one out!!!!

Toronto was 1 of the 2 teams that almost went bankrupt about 3 or 4 years ago in August and wasn't going to make payroll and be able to send out that months paychecks. That was until Steinbrenner stepped in and bailed them out. Now out of nowhere they are dishing out big bucks to BJ Ryan, Lyle Overbay, and AJ Burnett.

The Marlins will give Delgado a huge contract then cry poor 9 months later. Which makes no sense at all.

and don't even get me started on how the REDS took a revenue sharing check of millions a few years back and spent it on making the size of the soda cup holders in their stadium larger. And didnt spend one dime on improving the team!!!

These owners cry poor, spend nothing on payroll, and wait for the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets. Dodgers,...etc to pass out those big REVENUE SHARING checks. Which I have no problem with, but then dont' sit and cry about a "salary cap" or about how much the Yankees spend. Because they have the money to spend like the Yankees they just REFUSE to do it!!!!

SpurzN703
11-15-2006, 03:07 PM
It is sad in many ways and maybe there should be a cap. But both NY teams and the Red Sox make a ton of money each year. The Yankees had 4 million fans attend games this year, the Sox have sold out every home game for the past 3 years both teams (and now the Mets) have huge TV contracts. Yes they're lucky to be located in big markets but they make the money to spend. You can't fault them for spending the money they make.

Like MikeO said, I believe its the Twins owner that's the richest owner in baseball yet he doesn't pump any money into the team. Yes some teams are doomed to fail because of location and division (Tampa Bay and KC come to mind).

I understand that certain cities and teams create more money then others (NYY, NYM, BOS), but it's always the same. Spend spend spend, it isn't fair for the lower market teams.

But then again, when the heck is life ever fair? At least the Yankees have won more then 1 WS in the last 20 years. What has all this spending done for the Red Sox and Mets in their franchise history?

Just goes to show, money can buy you more money, but it may not always result in winning

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 03:22 PM
I understand that certain cities and teams create more money then others (NYY, NYM, BOS), but it's always the same. Spend spend spend, it isn't fair for the lower market teams.

But then again, when the heck is life ever fair? At least the Yankees have won more then 1 WS in the last 20 years. What has all this spending done for the Red Sox and Mets in their franchise history?

Just goes to show, money can buy you more money, but it may not always result in winning

Umm.... the Red Sox won a World Series and had been in the playoffs for 3 straight years before this year. In the past 20 years the Sox have been in the World Series 2 times (86, 04) and the playoffs in (86, 90, 95, 99, 03, 04, 05) so it's not like they've done a bad job. The Mets have reached the World Series twice also (86, 00) winning once. Also made the playoffs in I believe (86, 88, 98, 99, 00 and 06). Note the Mets playoff appearances could be way off. Other than the Yankees and Braves I don't think there's another team that's been in the playoffs more than the Sox or Mets in the past 20 years other than maybe Oakland, again I'm doing this all out of the top of my head so my numbers could be off.

And it's not like teams were spending over 100 million to 200 million 20 years ago. It started in the mid 90s.

Only 2 teams have won the WS more than once in the last 20 years: Yankees and Marlins. 1 of the Marlins championships was "bought" so to speak because they spend a ton of money getting guys to play for them like Sheffield, Bonilla, etc.

GreenMonster
11-15-2006, 04:54 PM
Wow goto google video and watch the Matsuzaka vs Ichiro video.. It is from back in 99' when Matsuzaka was a rookie still.. This kid has great stuff and a lower body built like Clemens.. The only thing that scares me is the kid pitches a little up in the zone, which can be leathel in MLB.

RWhitney014
11-15-2006, 05:54 PM
Umm.... the Red Sox won a World Series and had been in the playoffs for 3 straight years before this year. In the past 20 years the Sox have been in the World Series 2 times (86, 04) and the playoffs in (86, 90, 95, 99, 03, 04, 05) so it's not like they've done a bad job. The Mets have reached the World Series twice also (86, 00) winning once. Also made the playoffs in I believe (86, 88, 98, 99, 00 and 06). Note the Mets playoff appearances could be way off. Other than the Yankees and Braves I don't think there's another team that's been in the playoffs more than the Sox or Mets in the past 20 years other than maybe Oakland, again I'm doing this all out of the top of my head so my numbers could be off.

And it's not like teams were spending over 100 million to 200 million 20 years ago. It started in the mid 90s.

Only 2 teams have won the WS more than once in the last 20 years: Yankees and Marlins. 1 of the Marlins championships was "bought" so to speak because they spend a ton of money getting guys to play for them like Sheffield, Bonilla, etc.

Oh, how things change...we "bought" a WS in 1997 for $47,753,000.

Ray Finkle
11-15-2006, 05:57 PM
Oh, how things change...we "bought" a WS in 1997 for $47,753,000.

Only saying that because in the next year the Marlins shipped almost everyone from that team out of town because the owner couldn't afford the players.

Plus you can't compare a 1997 payroll with 2007 a payroll because the economics of baseball have changed so much over the past 10 years.

phunwin
11-15-2006, 11:16 PM
Hey it's possible but I doubt any time could get both pitchers to sign in the same year. Only time will tell. Schmidt hasn't been the same pitcher since 2003, his arm/shoulder worries me a lot, plus the whole AL/NL difference thing.

Schmidt's steadily declining K rate is a MAJOR red flag. It's not like he's a finesse guy like Zito or Tom Glavine, who can live with a low K rate. Schmidt relies on power. Always has, and probably always will.

Zito, in a just and fair world, would be the ideal #2/#3 starter. Instead, he's an ace because he's extremely durable and manages not to get hit hard. God, I hate the Steroid Era.

And yeah, Matsuzaka is better than either of those guys, and by a decent margin.

FinsNYanksFan13
11-15-2006, 11:28 PM
Schmidt's steadily declining K rate is a MAJOR red flag. It's not like he's a finesse guy like Zito or Tom Glavine, who can live with a low K rate. Schmidt relies on power. Always has, and probably always will.

Zito, in a just and fair world, would be the ideal #2/#3 starter. Instead, he's an ace because he's extremely durable and manages not to get hit hard. God, I hate the Steroid Era.

And yeah, Matsuzaka is better than either of those guys, and by a decent margin.



Yeah because he's dominated MLB batters his whole career. I mean honestly man, how many full games have you watched the kid pitch? My guess is you've seen some clips on youtube of him and saw him pitch his 3 innings in the WBC. Now I'm not saying this kid isn't going to be good because from what everyone is saying he's going to be solid but for you to say this kid is more of a proven commodity then 2 guys who have been near the top of MLB for a few years is absurd. Once again, that's not saying this kid won't be good cause all indications are he can be but for you to say he's worth more then 2 guys who have proved it on the MLB level while he's done nothing in MLB yet doesn't make sense!

UCFinfan86
11-15-2006, 11:43 PM
Yeah because he's dominated MLB batters his whole career. I mean honestly man, how many full games have you watched the kid pitch? My guess is you've seen some clips on youtube of him and saw him pitch his 3 innings in the WBC. Now I'm not saying this kid isn't going to be good because from what everyone is saying he's going to be solid but for you to say this kid is more of a proven commodity then 2 guys who have been near the top of MLB for a few years is absurd. Once again, that's not saying this kid won't be good cause all indications are he can be but for you to say he's worth more then 2 guys who have proved it on the MLB level while he's done nothing in MLB yet doesn't make sense!

You know damn well if this whole situation was turned around and it was the yankees with his rights you would proably be singing a different tune

All 3 have concerns, i am not going to say Mat is better or worse then them because i don't know anything about him, but i do know the concerns about Zito and Schmidt, and i wouldn't want Zito for the amount he is going to cost, but schmidt i wouldn't mind.

RWhitney014
11-15-2006, 11:55 PM
Yeah because he's dominated MLB batters his whole career. I mean honestly man, how many full games have you watched the kid pitch? My guess is you've seen some clips on youtube of him and saw him pitch his 3 innings in the WBC. Now I'm not saying this kid isn't going to be good because from what everyone is saying he's going to be solid but for you to say this kid is more of a proven commodity then 2 guys who have been near the top of MLB for a few years is absurd. Once again, that's not saying this kid won't be good cause all indications are he can be but for you to say he's worth more then 2 guys who have proved it on the MLB level while he's done nothing in MLB yet doesn't make sense!

So by that standard, you're not excited about Humberto Sanchez at all, are you? Because that would be a little hasty since he's never dominated MLB batters and you've probably never seen him pitch.

It does not matter who the hitters are when you're striking out 230+ batters in 200+ innings with an ERA around 3. That's just plain impressive, and while there is always the chance that he doesn't pan out, it's no different from any other prospect. Obviously, there's more money at all, and that's why there are so many emotions in this case.

brandon1986
11-16-2006, 12:11 AM
You know damn well if this whole situation was turned around and it was the yankees with his rights you would proably be singing a different tune

All 3 have concerns, i am not going to say Mat is better or worse then them because i don't know anything about him, but i do know the concerns about Zito and Schmidt, and i wouldn't want Zito for the amount he is going to cost, but schmidt i wouldn't mind.

that is not true, yeah i am a yankee fan but no way would i be happy with the yankees paying upwards of 100 million for a pitcher than never pitched in the majors

plus scouts say that he is a little over hyped and could be a #3 starter, they said a major problem could be that his fastball is pretty straight

plus i like this article that was on fox sports earlier
Sox can no longer whine about 'Evil Empire'
Story Tools:
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Michael Rosenberg / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 15 minutes ago



I hate to slap any limits on free speech, but from now on, there are two words I never again want to hear out of the city of Boston.
"Evil Empire."

And I really, really don't want to hear them out of Larry Lucchino's mouth.
No more complaining about the Yankees' payroll, Red Sox fans. Your team is the second-fattest cat on the block.
The Red Sox just won the Daisuke Matsuzaka sweepstakes with an astounding $51.1 million bid. They are not paying $51.1 million for Matsuzaka's services.

They are paying the Seibu Lions $51.1 million just for the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka. Just to get in the door. If they can't reach an agreement with Matsuzaka, the Red Sox get their money back. But they are expected to reach a deal.

Six major league teams spent less than that on their entire 2006 payroll.
Now, it is possible that the Red Sox aren't really paying that much; deals with Japanese teams are rumored to feature more secret handshakes than sixth-grade recess. But they are obviously spending a ton. Once they get around to actually, you know, paying the pitcher, their total bill could reach $100 million over five years.

The Red Sox see Matsuzaka as a 26-year-old ace and a gateway to the Japanese market, which explains why they see this as an investment.
But Matsuzaka has never even pitched in the major leagues. For all we know, the secret to his famed "gyroball" is illegally applied yogurt sauce, and he'll be a bust here.

If the Yankees made an offer like this, you know what would happen.
Lucchino, the Red Sox president, and many Boston fans would whine that the Yankees were spending recklessly, messing up baseball's payroll structure, sending the country into a recession and complicating the situation in the Middle East.

Four years ago, when the Yankees outbid Boston for Jose Contreras, an angry Lucchino told The New York Times "the evil empire extends its tentacles even into Latin America."

That deal was for four years and $32 million.

The Red Sox will apparently pay more just for the right to negotiate.

Theo Epstein talks about the Red Sox emerged as winners of the bidding for Daisuke Matsuzaka with a $51.1 million offer. (Luis M. Alvarez / Associated Press)

Hey, it's their money. They have it and they can spend it how they please. Maybe it will turn into a brilliant move, both for the baseball team and the business.

i just don't want to hear any whining from Boston fans about the Yankees payroll. Last year, the Yankees spent around $199 million, which is nuts. But the No. 2 team was the Red Sox, at $120 million, for a team that finished in third place in the A.L East.

Nobody else was above $103 million.

Thanks to baseball's revenue-sharing system, pretty much any team with good management and a strong business plan can compete for the playoffs. But for at least two-thirds of the teams in the major leagues, the idea of bidding anywhere near this much for a guy who has never pitched in the majors is absurd.

And when you add the astounding news of a $51.1 million offer to the reality of the Red Sox' payroll, you can only come to one conclusion:

The Red Sox are aggressively exploiting every possible revenue stream, creatively growing their big-market business in any way they can, then plowing their extra millions back into their ballclub in a vigorous attempt to compete for the World Series every year.
Nothing wrong with that.

But that's exactly what the Yankees do.
It can't be evil for one team and OK for another. It can't be horrible and offensive and ruining baseball when the Yankees do it and just fine when the Red Sox do it.

When it comes to baseball's economics, the only difference between the Red Sox and Yankees is that Boston is a really big market that loves baseball, and New York is a huge market that loves baseball.
If the Red Sox want to order a large, expensive platter of gyroballs, that is their right. But please, waiter: hold the morality play.
Detroit Free Press columnist Michael Rosenberg is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com. An archive of his Free Press columns can be found here.

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Brown42000
11-16-2006, 12:24 AM
I want the Sox to pick up some good relief pitchers because they have no quality bullpen guys left and their starting rotation is set.

Ray Finkle
11-16-2006, 12:26 AM
I want the Sox to pick up some good relief pitchers because they have no quality bullpen guys left and their starting rotation is set.

Agreed. We need to get a jump on some guys soon.

King Felix
11-16-2006, 12:42 AM
im not sure anyone knows the answer to this question but im sure some1 knows a little bit on it. how big is matasuaka(sp?) in japan compared to matsui and ichiro?

MikeO
11-16-2006, 12:46 AM
im not sure anyone knows the answer to this question but im sure some1 knows a little bit on it. how big is matasuaka(sp?) in japan compared to matsui and ichiro?

he is as big a star as those 2 from all reports

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 01:02 AM
that is not true, yeah i am a yankee fan but no way would i be happy with the yankees paying upwards of 100 million for a pitcher than never pitched in the majors

plus scouts say that he is a little over hyped and could be a #3 starter, they said a major problem could be that his fastball is pretty straight

plus i like this article that was on fox sports earlier
Sox can no longer whine about 'Evil Empire'



They aren't called the Evil Empire just cause they spend whatever amount they spend, its the way they go about it and the history between them

FinsNYanksFan13
11-16-2006, 01:03 AM
So by that standard, you're not excited about Humberto Sanchez at all, are you? Because that would be a little hasty since he's never dominated MLB batters and you've probably never seen him pitch.

It does not matter who the hitters are when you're striking out 230+ batters in 200+ innings with an ERA around 3. That's just plain impressive, and while there is always the chance that he doesn't pan out, it's no different from any other prospect. Obviously, there's more money at all, and that's why there are so many emotions in this case.



I actually never said I saw Sanchez pitch, nor did I say he would dominate MLB batters so your point of responding to my point was what? I may have said Sanchez has upside but I would never say he's worth more or better then Zito or Schmidt being that HE'S NEVER RECORDED AN OUT IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. Now do you understand what I was trying to say? What I was responding to in phunwin's post was the fact that he was saying Matsuzaka is better then Zito and Schmidt but that can't be the truth being that those 2 have been at the top of MLB a handful of years now and Matsuzaka has never recorded an out. I might hear that Sanchez has the chance to be the best pitcher Major League Baseball but until he proves it does that mean he doesn't have to prove it before he's annointed better then guys who are in the running for the CY Young year in and year out? I'm not letting emotions involved, just stating the truth. How can someone say that Matsuzaka is worth more or is going to be better then Barry Zito who has won a CY Young and out-dueled Johan Santana in the playoffs this year? Again, if Matsuzaka comes out and has a huge year this upcoming season it will be easy for me to say "he's better then Zito and is going to have a better career" but all these people saying it right now are just going off media reports and making assumptions. That's the problem with this country, to many people taking the media's word as gospel. Again, I'm not saying Matsuzaka doesn't have huge upside and doesn't have the chance to be one of the best pitchers in MLB but until he shows something on the mound that shows it, no one should say he's better quality then guys like Zito and Schmidt!

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 01:16 AM
I actually never said I saw Sanchez pitch, nor did I say he would dominate MLB batters so your point of responding to my point was what? I may have said Sanchez has upside but I would never say he's worth more or better then Zito or Schmidt being that HE'S NEVER RECORDED AN OUT IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. Now do you understand what I was trying to say? What I was responding to in phunwin's post was the fact that he was saying Matsuzaka is better then Zito and Schmidt but that can't be the truth being that those 2 have been at the top of MLB a handful of years now and Matsuzaka has never recorded an out. I might hear that Sanchez has the chance to be the best pitcher Major League Baseball but until he proves it does that mean he doesn't have to prove it before he's annointed better then guys who are in the running for the CY Young year in and year out? I'm not letting emotions involved, just stating the truth. How can someone say that Matsuzaka is worth more or is going to be better then Barry Zito who has won a CY Young and out-dueled Johan Santana in the playoffs this year? Again, if Matsuzaka comes out and has a huge year this upcoming season it will be easy for me to say "he's better then Zito and is going to have a better career" but all these people saying it right now are just going off media reports and making assumptions. That's the problem with this country, to many people taking the media's word as gospel. Again, I'm not saying Matsuzaka doesn't have huge upside and doesn't have the chance to be one of the best pitchers in MLB but until he shows something on the mound that shows it, no one should say he's better quality then guys like Zito and Schmidt!

Your right, right now hes not, but the fact is he has way more upside then either of those pitchers, and like every sport franchise, you pay a tremendous amount for a player with alot of upside, hoping they reach their potential. With Scmidt and Zito, you pretty much know what your going to get, with Matsuzaka the sky seems the limit.

MikeO
11-16-2006, 02:00 AM
They aren't called the Evil Empire just cause they spend whatever amount they spend, its the way they go about it and the history between them

explain this. I'm dying to hear the answer.

What is the "way we go about it"....

Please explain that...................................

RWhitney014
11-16-2006, 02:46 AM
I actually never said I saw Sanchez pitch, nor did I say he would dominate MLB batters so your point of responding to my point was what? I may have said Sanchez has upside but I would never say he's worth more or better then Zito or Schmidt being that HE'S NEVER RECORDED AN OUT IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. Now do you understand what I was trying to say? What I was responding to in phunwin's post was the fact that he was saying Matsuzaka is better then Zito and Schmidt but that can't be the truth being that those 2 have been at the top of MLB a handful of years now and Matsuzaka has never recorded an out. I might hear that Sanchez has the chance to be the best pitcher Major League Baseball but until he proves it does that mean he doesn't have to prove it before he's annointed better then guys who are in the running for the CY Young year in and year out? I'm not letting emotions involved, just stating the truth. How can someone say that Matsuzaka is worth more or is going to be better then Barry Zito who has won a CY Young and out-dueled Johan Santana in the playoffs this year? Again, if Matsuzaka comes out and has a huge year this upcoming season it will be easy for me to say "he's better then Zito and is going to have a better career" but all these people saying it right now are just going off media reports and making assumptions. That's the problem with this country, to many people taking the media's word as gospel. Again, I'm not saying Matsuzaka doesn't have huge upside and doesn't have the chance to be one of the best pitchers in MLB but until he shows something on the mound that shows it, no one should say he's better quality then guys like Zito and Schmidt!

Tony, I understand your point, but here's what you wrote to Phil before:


"Yeah because he's dominated MLB batters his whole career. I mean honestly man, how many full games have you watched the kid pitch?"

The point I'm trying to make is, no one has ever seen any prospect pitch before, but we still say, wow, this guy's gonna be great because he's wiping the floor with AA hitters. So to say Matsuzaka is not going to be good - which you didn't say, but a lot of people are using the "he pitched in Japan and they're not as good over there" argument - is plain dumb. His stuff's fantastic according to all scouting reports, his numbers are better, and his body hasn't shown serious signs of breaking under the pressure. At his age on this market with the way money is being thrown around, it's a calculated risk, but it's got a huge payoff. If I had the money for both, I'd rather spend $80 million on Matusaka than $48 on Ted Lilly.

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 10:27 AM
explain this. I'm dying to hear the answer.

What is the "way we go about it"....

Please explain that...................................

My view point, it proably isn't the way everyone else feels, but the way i feel about it is.....

I some of the history, but i don't know all of it, but i mean everyone knows the obvious things like babe ruth, bucky dent, etc.

A few years back they had a payroll close to half of ours, but yet we are expected to compete every year(As we should be), Now you have said a few months back that once you spend over a certain amount (don't remember the amount you stated) it doesn't matter how much you spend its all the same, but it DOES matter, 80 mill or whatever is ATLEAST 4 great players.

Another reason for me is how they make their team so strict, there is no need to run it like a dictatorship. What is wrong with letting their players wear facial hair or have long hair?

My main problem is basically how they use their money not always for themselves, but just to block the Redsox from getting a player or whatever. I wouldn't mind as much if you would go spend 200$ million and spend it the right way. Like i feel, which may not be correct, that you guys really didn't want Damon for whatever you signed him for (4 years/50 mill i believe) but you did it more so just so you could stick it to the Sox.

But the move that really pissed me off was the Gary Sheffield trade. That is just the yankees taking advantage of their money, you don't see no other team doing that, and i find that unfair. Signing a guy that you have NO intentions on keeping, just for the fact that you can trade him and don't care since money is no object.

Now every sox and yankee fan on this board proably feels differently on it then me. I don't care, this is how i feel about it, so go ahead bash me because i dont think about it as the "correct" way or whatever you way think of it as, which must be the right way to view the statement "Evil Empire"

FinsNYanksFan13
11-16-2006, 10:48 AM
Tony, I understand your point, but here's what you wrote to Phil before:


"Yeah because he's dominated MLB batters his whole career. I mean honestly man, how many full games have you watched the kid pitch?"

The point I'm trying to make is, no one has ever seen any prospect pitch before, but we still say, wow, this guy's gonna be great because he's wiping the floor with AA hitters. So to say Matsuzaka is not going to be good - which you didn't say, but a lot of people are using the "he pitched in Japan and they're not as good over there" argument - is plain dumb. His stuff's fantastic according to all scouting reports, his numbers are better, and his body hasn't shown serious signs of breaking under the pressure. At his age on this market with the way money is being thrown around, it's a calculated risk, but it's got a huge payoff. If I had the money for both, I'd rather spend $80 million on Matusaka than $48 on Ted Lilly.


The reason I wrote that about dominating mlb batter his whole career is because you can't call him better then Schmidt or Zito until he's done that (which they have). That's my point. You can see prospects and say "hey, so and so's got upside" or you can hear a ton from the scouts regarding their ability but at the end of the day you can't call them better then a proven MLB pitcher until they prove it on the MLB level. It has nothing to do with worth because the market is crazy and I'm not saying this kid isn't worth every penny he's going to receive. What I am trying to say is that he's not worth as much as a Zito who's only 2 years older, has a CY Young, and out-dueled Johan Santana in a game no one gave the A's a chance to win in. I'm not saying this kid won't be a gem and in the long run won't be better then Zito but right now you have to say Zito's worth more because he's a better pitcher. Matsuzaka might have better stuff and might light up the radar gun but until he proves it on this level you have to say the proven commodity is worth more then the unproven!

MikeO
11-16-2006, 11:00 AM
My main problem is basically how they use their money not always for themselves, but just to block the Redsox from getting a player or whatever. I wouldn't mind as much if you would go spend 200$ million and spend it the right way. Like i feel, which may not be correct, that you guys really didn't want Damon for whatever you signed him for (4 years/50 mill i believe) but you did it more so just so you could stick it to the Sox.

But the move that really pissed me off was the Gary Sheffield trade. That is just the yankees taking advantage of their money, you don't see no other team doing that, and i find that unfair. Signing a guy that you have NO intentions on keeping, just for the fact that you can trade him and don't care since money is no object.

Now every sox and yankee fan on this board proably feels differently on it then me. I don't care, this is how i feel about it, so go ahead bash me because i dont think about it as the "correct" way or whatever you way think of it as, which must be the right way to view the statement "Evil Empire"

1) Yes we DID want Damon. The year before we didn't have a centerfielder. We were playing Bubba Crosby who can't hit. Or moving Hideki out of position and have him looking lost in CF. Damon is a legit leadoff hitter, a good glove and a guy who can hit 20 home runs and steal 20 bases. For you to think we ONLY signed him to screw Boston is crazy!!!!!!!!!!

2)Sheffield was already signed!!!!!!! The Yanks just picked up his option and traded him. That is done all the time in this sport!! It was part of the contract Sheff signed years back. The Yanks didn't do anything wrong.

3) And please give me 1 example of 1 player (just 1) that NY used their money to BLOCK Boston from getting. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is you just looking to paint up and draw up an image of the 'big bad yankees".

I'm not going to bash ya but I think your delusional about this stuff. And when I bring up 2nd city mentality, you just painted the perfect picture of it. I mean upset the Yanks signed Damon, hey if your team wanted him should have paid him. Now ya can't cry that he left for more $$$$$! And the Yanks don't BLOCK anyone from going anywhere. Odds are its a good player and NY is willing to pay more $$$. And please name, who has NY ever BLOCKED from going to Boston......................

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:20 AM
1) Yes we DID want Damon. The year before we didn't have a centerfielder. We were playing Bubba Crosby who can't hit. Or moving Hideki out of position and have him looking lost in CF. Damon is a legit leadoff hitter, a good glove and a guy who can hit 20 home runs and steal 20 bases. For you to think we ONLY signed him to screw Boston is crazy!!!!!!!!!!



I didn't say you didnt want damon, but i said i dont think you wanted him fo 12 million a year. I didn't care the Redsox didn't sign him

tucker
11-16-2006, 11:23 AM
hopefully he loses most of his games so i can hear red sox fans freak out

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:24 AM
3) And please give me 1 example of 1 player (just 1) that NY used their money to BLOCK Boston from getting. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is you just looking to paint up and draw up an image of the 'big bad yankees".


The yankees have never came out and publicly and did it, but like sheffield for example, there where rumors that the Redsox were going after him(not that i want him), now did they do it so the Redsox couldn't sign him? Proably not entirely, but to some extent? maybe

And when did i say anything at all about 2nd city mentality?? Someone mentioned something about Redsox fans view of Evil Empire or something, thats not 2nd city mentality

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:26 AM
MikeO, i gave you my view of why the yankees are considered the "Evil Empire", albeit in your eyes its not correct, but i would like to see what you think, is it just because of the payroll?

FinsNYanksFan13
11-16-2006, 11:32 AM
The yankees have never came out and publicly and did it, but like sheffield for example, there where rumors that the Redsox were going after him(not that i want him), now did they do it so the Redsox couldn't sign him? Proably not entirely, but to some extent? maybe

And when did i say anything at all about 2nd city mentality?? Someone mentioned something about Redsox fans view of Evil Empire or something, thats not 2nd city mentality


Your paranoid!

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:35 AM
Your paranoid!

about.....

FinsNYanksFan13
11-16-2006, 11:40 AM
about.....

It seems like you got conspiracy theory's that everything the Yankees do is to stick it to the Red Sox. Did it ever occur to you that the Yankees just have more money to spend and offered these guys more money and needed these players to improve and that's why they got all these guys, not to stick to the Red Sox?

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:43 AM
It seems like you got conspiracy theory's that everything the Yankees do is to stick it to the Red Sox. Did it ever occur to you that the Yankees just have more money to spend and offered these guys more money and needed these players to improve and that's why they got all these guys, not to stick to the Red Sox?

Where did i say conspiracy? They did 1 move in Sheffield(which i beleive, which was a good move by them, i just don't feel it was a fair move) and now its a conspiracy? If you are referring to Damon also, they could have very easily wanted him for 12 million a year, or they could have wanted to just take him for the sox, or a combination of both, neither of us really know. I didn't know i had a conspiracy theory going on

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:46 AM
and actually it goes both ways, the Redsox very easily could right now be trying to block Matzaka from going to the yankees, and im sure there was other moves in which the sox have done this, maybe all the time they just aren't made public.

MikeO
11-16-2006, 11:49 AM
The yankees have never came out and publicly and did it, but like sheffield for example, there where rumors that the Redsox were going after him(not that i want him), now did they do it so the Redsox couldn't sign him? Proably not entirely, but to some extent? maybe

And when did i say anything at all about 2nd city mentality?? Someone mentioned something about Redsox fans view of Evil Empire or something, thats not 2nd city mentality

The Red Sox weren't signing Sheff.:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol:

They won't pay Damon or Pedro because they are too old and they actually won you a ring for the first time in 86 years. Now your gonna sign Sheff at 39 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :sidelol: Pay him and not the other two. Watch those fans revolt and riot!!!

And your view is CLEARLY 2nd city menatlity. The ONLY reason NY signed Damon was because of Boston. NY traded Sheff and didn't just cut him beacuse of Boston. That is a 2nd city mentality view of a NY. In your opinion, every move NY makes has Boston in mind :shakeno: Seriously!!! It doesn't!!

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:54 AM
The Red Sox weren't signing Sheff.:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol:

They won't pay Damon or Pedro because they are too old and they actually won you a ring for the first time in 86 years. Now your gonna sign Sheff at 39 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :sidelol: Pay him and not the other two. Watch those fans revolt and riot!!!

And your view is CLEARLY 2nd city menatlity. The ONLY reason NY signed Damon was because of Boston. NY traded Sheff and didn't just cut him beacuse of Boston. That is a 2nd city mentality view of a NY. In your opinion, every move NY makes has Boston in mind :shakeno: Seriously!!! It doesn't!!

Um actually read what i wrote PLEASE!! i stated 2 moves that they have made and now its every move??? And did you not see where i said the yankees MIGHT have signed damon, you dont know, even though you think you know everything, you don't know for sure that they wanted him for 12 million a year.

And the Redsox could have went after sheffield, just because they don't sign Damon or Pedro becausethey are to old, um maybe because they wanted long term deals, Sheff only wanted a 2 year deal.

MikeO
11-16-2006, 11:55 AM
MikeO, i gave you my view of why the yankees are considered the "Evil Empire", albeit in your eyes its not correct, but i would like to see what you think, is it just because of the payroll?

Evil Empire is stupid. These current horrible owners in Boston who couldn't run a team in Florida were handed a team in Boston. They started throwing out namecalling at the Yanks just because they knew it would rally the fans. Because the fans weren't too thrilled those guys got the team over the other ownership group that should have got the Red Sox but were screwed out of it

It was a diversion tactic!!!

MikeO
11-16-2006, 11:56 AM
Um actually read what i wrote PLEASE!! i stated 2 moves that they have made and now its every move??? And did you not see where i said the yankees MIGHT have signed damon, you dont know, even though you think you know everything, you don't know for sure that they wanted him for 12 million a year.

And the Redsox could have went after sheffield, just because they don't sign Damon or Pedro becausethey are to old, um maybe because they wanted long term deals, Sheff only wanted a 2 year deal.

Because you can't give an example of a move that NY did to BLOCK Boston!!!!!!! Name 1, I'm still waiting.............................................

Sheff wanted 2 more years after this deal. A 3 year deal. Read up on it!!

MikeO
11-16-2006, 11:58 AM
Where did i say conspiracy? They did 1 move in Sheffield(which i beleive, which was a good move by them, i just don't feel it was a fair move) and now its a conspiracy? If you are referring to Damon also, they could have very easily wanted him for 12 million a year, or they could have wanted to just take him for the sox, or a combination of both, neither of us really know. I didn't know i had a conspiracy theory going on

How is it NOT a fair move. Now it isn't a fair move to trade a guy under contract??? :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: Teams do it all the time. Now NY can't trade a guy under contract :confused: :confused:

And Damon was the BEST centerfielder ont he market. The Yankees badly needed a centerfielder, so they signed Damon. Why is that so hard to understand!

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 11:58 AM
Here is where buster olney said Theo could go after sheffield
Olney: Would Yanks Exercise Sheff's Option?

With Bobby Abreu now under contract for 2007, it seemed like a foregone conclusion that the Yankees would not exercise Gary Sheffield's $13MM option. He seems poised to head up a small group of free agent right fielders (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/07/2007_free_agent_2.html).
However, Buster Olney makes a good argument for the Yankees to exercise his option even with Abreu in the fold. Remember, the Yankees are a team Olney knows well; he wrote a book about them. Sure, Sheffield may not be worth the full $13MM next year. But one of New York's competitive advantages is its ability to take on salaries. How many teams would salivate at the idea of getting Sheff on a one-year deal to minimize their risk? Think Theo Epstein wouldn't jump on that? It's like last winter's Furcal contract, only better.

MikeO
11-16-2006, 12:00 PM
Here is where buster olney said Theo could go after sheffield
Olney: Would Yanks Exercise Sheff's Option?

With Bobby Abreu now under contract for 2007, it seemed like a foregone conclusion that the Yankees would not exercise Gary Sheffield's $13MM option. He seems poised to head up a small group of free agent right fielders (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/07/2007_free_agent_2.html).
However, Buster Olney makes a good argument for the Yankees to exercise his option even with Abreu in the fold. Remember, the Yankees are a team Olney knows well; he wrote a book about them. Sure, Sheffield may not be worth the full $13MM next year. But one of New York's competitive advantages is its ability to take on salaries. How many teams would salivate at the idea of getting Sheff on a one-year deal to minimize their risk? Think Theo Epstein wouldn't jump on that? It's like last winter's Furcal contract, only better.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 12:02 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

What do you not know how to take a foot out of your mouth?

MikeO
11-16-2006, 12:03 PM
What do you not know how to take a foot out of your mouth?

That report said nothing to back up your point!!!!!!

Boston was never going to sign Sheff so he's around till he's 42 with a 3 year deal. :sidelol: :sidelol: . Yeah sign Sheff but let Damon and Pedro walk. That would go over well.

All it said was Theo's name. And you think NY ........whatever. Believe what you want. Live in whatever fantasy world you want

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 12:04 PM
That report said nothing to back up your point!!!!!!

Boston was never going to sign Sheff so he's around till he's 42 with a 3 year deal. :sidelol: :sidelol: . Yeah sign Sheff but let Damon and Pedro walk. That would go over well.

All it said was Theo's name. And you think NY ........whatever. Believe what you want. Live in whatever fantasy world you want

NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A 3 YEAR DEAL BESIDES YOU!! BUSTER OLNEY SAID 1 YEAR

and your right, i forgot Theo's name doesn't mean boston, they must be talking about a different theo

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 12:12 PM
"As I mentioned last week, I'm not a proponent of keeping Gary Sheffield in Pinstripes for the 2007 campaign. There are a lot better things to spend $13 million on, like starting pitching. But as has been the Yankee way for quite some time now, money isn't an issue. I can understand why Brian Cashman made this move. The Yankees can now control what happens to Gary Sheffield. It was thought that the Boston Red Sox were one of the teams most interested in signing Sheffield if he were a free agent. That can't happen now. "

MikeO
11-16-2006, 12:20 PM
NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A 3 YEAR DEAL BESIDES YOU!! BUSTER OLNEY SAID 1 YEAR

and your right, i forgot Theo's name doesn't mean boston, they must be talking about a different theo

I guess you missed the 2 week Sheff rants in every newspaper of him saying when NY trades him if whatever team gets him doens't give him a 2 year extension that there will "be problems" and it will "get ugly". He already had 1 year on his deal, he wanted a 2 year extension.......making it a 3 year deal!!

:shakeno: :shakeno: Buddy, I'm not making this stuff up.......your off base on this issue!!!

MikeO
11-16-2006, 12:21 PM
"As I mentioned last week, I'm not a proponent of keeping Gary Sheffield in Pinstripes for the 2007 campaign. There are a lot better things to spend $13 million on, like starting pitching. But as has been the Yankee way for quite some time now, money isn't an issue. I can understand why Brian Cashman made this move. The Yankees can now control what happens to Gary Sheffield. It was thought that the Boston Red Sox were one of the teams most interested in signing Sheffield if he were a free agent. That can't happen now. "

OBVIOUSLY it wasn't about control it was about getting something for him in return.

They traded him to an AL team who knocked the Yanks out of the playoffs. They just made THAT team better!!! So it wasn't about blocking or control clearly. :shakeno: :shakeno:

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 01:16 PM
OBVIOUSLY it wasn't about control it was about getting something for him in return.

They traded him to an AL team who knocked the Yanks out of the playoffs. They just made THAT team better!!! So it wasn't about blocking or control clearly. :shakeno: :shakeno:

weren't you the same person yesterday that stated that they weren't scared of the tigers?

MikeO
11-16-2006, 01:51 PM
weren't you the same person yesterday that stated that they weren't scared of the tigers?

EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!:sidelol:

The Yanks don't do things to BLOCK players from going to other teams that compete with them!!!


Thank you! Debate over!!!:lol:

UCFinfan86
11-16-2006, 02:05 PM
EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!:sidelol:

The Yanks don't do things to BLOCK players from going to other teams that compete with them!!!


Thank you! Debate over!!!:lol:

ya considering the tigers and the redsox are the same team :confused:, this debate was never over the tigers, it was making sure they traded sheffield to a team that wasn't the redsox. Whatever i don't care, MikeO can't ever be wrong about anything, even though you wanted one time when they blocked a player, which i showed you with sheffield where they MIGHT have(never said they did) from going to the Redsox, then you say the redsox weren't interested, i show you 2 sources saying they might have been, and you spin it off somehow trying to talk about the tigers. Whatever theres no point, MikeO can never be wrong

FaninPatsyLand
11-16-2006, 02:05 PM
These current horrible owners in Boston who couldn't run a team in Florida were handed a team in Boston.

And that right there proves you have no credibility when it comes to the Red Sox. Other than the fact that you continue to deny that a rotation of Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka and Papelbon doesn't scare you (which is clearly just a hater attitude), this is one of the most asinine things you've written on this board.

Tell me, had you ever been to Fenway prior to the new ownership taking over? Have you been there since they've taken over and added to the park including new facilities, concourses and seats along with improvements in the immediate neighborhood around the park? I'd hazard a guess of no because if you had, you would have realized what an incredible job they've done with the smallest park in baseball.

Oh, and that small detail of winning the first World Championship in 86 years, including playoff appearences in 3 straight years from 2003-2005. Not to mention during that time, they basically rebuilt an entire farm system and made it a strength of the organization.

Yeah, they've really been horrible.

dob72
11-16-2006, 02:10 PM
And that right there proves you have no credibility
that needs to be proved lol

Ray Finkle
11-16-2006, 02:26 PM
And that right there proves you have no credibility when it comes to the Red Sox. Other than the fact that you continue to deny that a rotation of Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka and Papelbon doesn't scare you (which is clearly just a hater attitude), this is one of the most asinine things you've written on this board.

Tell me, had you ever been to Fenway prior to the new ownership taking over? Have you been there since they've taken over and added to the park including new facilities, concourses and seats along with improvements in the immediate neighborhood around the park? I'd hazard a guess of no because if you had, you would have realized what an incredible job they've done with the smallest park in baseball.

Oh, and that small detail of winning the first World Championship in 86 years, including playoff appearences in 3 straight years from 2003-2005. Not to mention during that time, they basically rebuilt an entire farm system and made it a strength of the organization.

Yeah, they've really been horrible.

Amen.

MikeO
11-16-2006, 02:30 PM
the current ownership ran the Marlins into the ground. They DIDN'T deserve to get the Red Sox handed to them when the re-shuffle took place (Loria to Fl, Henry to Bos, and the Expos to MLB). Their bid for the Sox wasn't even the best on the table

But MLB gave it to them cause Henry whined and whined!!! Read up on your history then get back to me!! They are shaddy business people.

P.S.....Papelbon has never started on the major league level for a full season. Beckett is never healthy. And the Matsuzka has proved NOTHING in MLB yet. Sorry, that rotation doesn't scare me. It's good, but it doesn't scare me. maybe it will in June, but now it doesn't!!

MikeO
11-16-2006, 02:34 PM
ya considering the tigers and the redsox are the same team :confused:, this debate was never over the tigers, it was making sure they traded sheffield to a team that wasn't the redsox. Whatever i don't care, MikeO can't ever be wrong about anything, even though you wanted one time when they blocked a player, which i showed you with sheffield where they MIGHT have(never said they did) from going to the Redsox, then you say the redsox weren't interested, i show you 2 sources saying they might have been, and you spin it off somehow trying to talk about the tigers. Whatever theres no point, MikeO can never be wrong

Just BACK up a point. That is all I asked and you have failed to.

And you said......."the way they opereate" or something to that effect. And your ONLY example is from like 10 days ago. Eveil Empire was said some 3 or 4 years ago. Your timeline is off. You MUST have more than 1 example to back up your stance.


JUST BACK IT UP!!!!!

Alex44
11-16-2006, 02:36 PM
Even as a Marlin fan I can say Beckett was never that good besides that one playoff stretch, I wouldnt be scared of him if my team was playing him.

Papelbon has never been a starter in the MLB he could turn out to be Eric Gagne (Great Closer but gets rocked around as a starter) even though Gagne was a starter first its the same principal

Japanese dude has never started a game in the MLB, thats not to say he wont be great but he could also be terrible

Schilling is the only one that scares me really.

FaninPatsyLand
11-16-2006, 02:56 PM
the current ownership ran the Marlins into the ground. They DIDN'T deserve to get the Red Sox handed to them when the re-shuffle took place (Loria to Fl, Henry to Bos, and the Expos to MLB). Their bid for the Sox wasn't even the best on the table

But MLB gave it to them cause Henry whined and whined!!! Read up on your history then get back to me!! They are shaddy business people.

P.S.....Papelbon has never started on the major league level for a full season. Beckett is never healthy. And the Matsuzka has proved NOTHING in MLB yet. Sorry, that rotation doesn't scare me. It's good, but it doesn't scare me. maybe it will in June, but now it doesn't!!

I don't care what Henry and Co. did in Florida, they've been anything but "horrible" in Boston. In fact, I'd say they've done a spectacular job with the Red Sox organization since coming to Boston.

MikeO
11-16-2006, 03:02 PM
I don't care what Henry and Co. did in Florida, they've been anything but "horrible" in Boston. In fact, I'd say they've done a spectacular job with the Red Sox organization since coming to Boston.

That's fine. If your happy with them, god bless ya and all of Boston. But it doens't change history.

We were talking about the line..."EVIL EMPIRE" and where it came from. I was just pointing out that these current owners used the EVIL EMPIRE line to distract the fans who at the time were upset that Henry got the team. Because he didn't deserve it. He didn't have the best offer on the table and he had just run the Marlins in the ground. Fans in Boston were upset he got them back in the day.

So, this ownership group goes public with "EVIL EMPIRE".....the fans then rally behind them. It was used as a distraction to get people's minds off the fact they didn't deserve to get the Sox and that other ownership group SHOULD have gotten them. That's all I'm saying.........

GreenMonster
11-16-2006, 03:09 PM
That's fine. If your happy with them, god bless ya and all of Boston. But it doens't change history.

We were talking about the line..."EVIL EMPIRE" and where it came from. I was just pointing out that these current owners used the EVIL EMPIRE line to distract the fans who at the time were upset that Henry got the team. Because he didn't deserve it. He didn't have the best offer on the table and he had just run the Marlins in the ground. Fans in Boston were upset he got them back in the day.

So, this ownership group goes public with "EVIL EMPIRE".....the fans then rally behind them. It was used as a distraction to get people's minds off the fact they didn't deserve to get the Sox and that other ownership group SHOULD have gotten them. That's all I'm saying.........

The 1st time Evil Empire was ever used was after the whole Jose Contreras incident.. The quote was "The Evil Empire extends its tentacles even into Latin America". Larry Lucchino said it not John Henry.. So how exactly did Henry fool us with this quote.. ?

phunwin
11-16-2006, 03:09 PM
EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!:sidelol:

The Yanks don't do things to BLOCK players from going to other teams that compete with them!!!


Thank you! Debate over!!!:lol:

You mean aside from the time they put in a waiver claim on Jose Canseco, who they didn't want (and got stuck with him)?

Or when the Mariners were looking to trade Randy Johnson, and the Yankees jerked them around forever, even though they had no intention of consummating such a deal (and as a result, the Mariners got stuck trading him for 75 cents on the dollar to Houston)?

I agree with your larger point; that they didn't deal him to Detroit just to keep him from Boston, but let's not totally lose our sense of history.

FaninPatsyLand
11-16-2006, 03:20 PM
The 1st time Evil Empire was ever used was after the whole Jose Contreras incident.. The quote was "The Evil Empire extends its tentacles even into Latin America". Larry Lucchino said it not John Henry.. So how exactly did Henry fool us with this quote.. ?

Yup.. the Evil Empire comment was after the Contreras signing. It had nothing to do with the ownership trying to divert attention away from the supposed "shady" auction that took place for the Red Sox.

MikeO, what are you talking about?

You're trying to put down the Red Sox ownership based on stuff that never happened, and you have the audacity to call out others for showing their supposed "2nd city mentality"? Absolutely ridiculous.

Ray Finkle
11-16-2006, 03:51 PM
Even as a Marlin fan I can say Beckett was never that good besides that one playoff stretch, I wouldnt be scared of him if my team was playing him.

Papelbon has never been a starter in the MLB he could turn out to be Eric Gagne (Great Closer but gets rocked around as a starter) even though Gagne was a starter first its the same principal

Japanese dude has never started a game in the MLB, thats not to say he wont be great but he could also be terrible

Schilling is the only one that scares me really.

Not true. Papelbon started 3 games in 2005 and got no decisions in all of them if I remember correctly. The only reason why Papelbon wasn't in the rotation in 2006 was because they had no one to close and they threw Paps in there to see what he could do and he responded big time. I really think Papelbon is going to be a very good starter. He has 3 above average pitches in his fastball, splitter and slider. He also has a curve, change up and is working on a 2 seamer now.

Beckett is still young though, 26 years old and has tons of talent (no one can deny that). He just hasn't put it together yet.... maybe he never will, but if he can learn how to pitch he'll be very scary. People forget that Schilling wasn't anything special when he was 26 years old. Beckett is entering the prime of a pitchers career (between the age of 26 to 32-34). I would take Beckett's potential over a Clement type.

The fact is, the rotation could be very very dominate if everyone clicks. The Sox right now have to be the favorites for the best rotation in the AL East, of course they play the games on the field- not on paper.

Ray Finkle
11-16-2006, 03:53 PM
Personally I could care less what Henry and Company did before they came to the Sox. That doesn't matter to me nor should it matter to Sox fans because it's in the past.

It's like saying yeah Ortiz has been great for the Red Sox but man he sucked in Minnesota. Who cares?

phunwin
11-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Not true. Papelbon started 3 games in 2005 and got no decisions in all of them if I remember correctly. The only reason why Papelbon wasn't in the rotation in 2006 was because they had no one to close and they threw Paps in there to see what he could do and he responded big time. I really think Papelbon is going to be a very good starter. He has 3 above average pitches in his fastball, splitter and slider. He also has a curve, change up and is working on a 2 seamer now.

Beckett is still young though, 26 years old and has tons of talent (no one can deny that). He just hasn't put it together yet.... maybe he never will, but if he can learn how to pitch he'll be very scary. People forget that Schilling wasn't anything special when he was 26 years old. Beckett is entering the prime of a pitchers career (between the age of 26 to 32-34). I would take Beckett's potential over a Clement type.

The fact is, the rotation could be very very dominate if everyone clicks. The Sox right now have to be the favorites for the best rotation in the AL East, of course they play the games on the field- not on paper.

Obviously, Clement's gone downhill pretty fast, but be fair; ability has never been his problem. Clement had awesome stuff, and not THAT long ago, either. Fact is, he's been screwed up ever since that line drive smacked him right in the ol' coconut. As far as potential goes, Clement had every bit as much a few years ago as Beckett does now...which just goes to show that talented young pitchers are ALWAYS a speculative investment. (And when they're as injury prone as Beckett, that's doubly true.)

Ray Finkle
11-16-2006, 04:18 PM
Obviously, Clement's gone downhill pretty fast, but be fair; ability has never been his problem. Clement had awesome stuff, and not THAT long ago, either. Fact is, he's been screwed up ever since that line drive smacked him right in the ol' coconut. As far as potential goes, Clement had every bit as much a few years ago as Beckett does now...which just goes to show that talented young pitchers are ALWAYS a speculative investment. (And when they're as injury prone as Beckett, that's doubly true.)

I agree 100%.

Alex44
11-16-2006, 10:29 PM
Not true. Papelbon started 3 games in 2005 and got no decisions in all of them if I remember correctly. The only reason why Papelbon wasn't in the rotation in 2006 was because they had no one to close and they threw Paps in there to see what he could do and he responded big time. I really think Papelbon is going to be a very good starter. He has 3 above average pitches in his fastball, splitter and slider. He also has a curve, change up and is working on a 2 seamer now.

Beckett is still young though, 26 years old and has tons of talent (no one can deny that). He just hasn't put it together yet.... maybe he never will, but if he can learn how to pitch he'll be very scary. People forget that Schilling wasn't anything special when he was 26 years old. Beckett is entering the prime of a pitchers career (between the age of 26 to 32-34). I would take Beckett's potential over a Clement type.

The fact is, the rotation could be very very dominate if everyone clicks. The Sox right now have to be the favorites for the best rotation in the AL East, of course they play the games on the field- not on paper.

Exactly and that is a BIG if.

Im not sold on Papelbon on a starter, 3 games.....obviously none of those hitters had seen him before so there is still potential to fail, sure he was great pitching out of the bullpen but thats a completely different thing. I think he COULD be a great starter but who knows?

The only one guaranteed to be good is Schilling, and thats IF he can stay healthy for the year.

Right now Id call your rotation a coin flip....one side says it could be great and the other side says it could be terrible.

Ray Finkle
11-16-2006, 10:36 PM
Exactly and that is a BIG if.

Im not sold on Papelbon on a starter, 3 games.....obviously none of those hitters had seen him before so there is still potential to fail, sure he was great pitching out of the bullpen but thats a completely different thing. I think he COULD be a great starter but who knows?

The only one guaranteed to be good is Schilling, and thats IF he can stay healthy for the year.

Right now Id call your rotation a coin flip....one side says it could be great and the other side says it could be terrible.

I'll take my chances that the rotation will be more great than terrible.

And how can you say you're not sold on Papelbon being a starter? You didn't even know he started before. Yes 3 games is a small sample size but he's been an effective pitching so far in his short MLB career. You just can't dismiss he won't be good because other closers or relief pitchers aren't effective starters.

Alex44
11-16-2006, 10:50 PM
I'll take my chances that the rotation will be more great than terrible.

Maybe.



I think Papelbon and Schilling will probally be good.

Then you have Beckett who IMO probally wont be.

Then you have Mr. Japan who is an unknown.

So Id give you probally a 50% chance of being good. 25% chance of failure and 25% chance of being great.

Just my opinion of course, you know your team better than I do.

Alex44
11-16-2006, 10:51 PM
I'll take my chances that the rotation will be more great than terrible.

And how can you say you're not sold on Papelbon being a starter? You didn't even know he started before. Yes 3 games is a small sample size but he's been an effective pitching so far in his short MLB career. You just can't dismiss he won't be good because other closers or relief pitchers aren't effective starters.

Im not saying he wont be good. Im saying he needs to prove he will be good out of that role is all.

unifiedtheory
11-16-2006, 10:57 PM
The Oakland A's cry poor, but then go spend $300-$400 mill OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET to build a new stadium in San Jose



They cry poor because they ARE poor WHILE they play in the stadium they are currently playing in. They will not be poor in 2011 when they finally get a new yard.

Previous ownership was trying to extort the city of Oakland into publicly financing a stadium and the city would not bite.

Lew Wollf came on board and gave Billy Beane more money last offseason (they did not lose any MAJOR free agents last winter). In that time Wollf has been in charge he has been trying to:

Find a location for the new stadium
Find some financing for the new stadium These things do not happen over night. I would never expect an owner of a team to dump money into a bottomless pit. That is what Oakland is right now. Worst stadium in baseball by a wide margin, bad location and their attendance is around 20,000 a night even though they are a competative team.

Once Wollf got his ducks in a row (a location and the financing) he stepped forward to get the deal done.

Would it be better for him to spend the money on players instead? Great idea. Go out and have a $120 million dollar payroll but stay in the same ****ty ballpark.

Don't give me the "teams that spend more are more sucessful on the field and get better attendance" crap because this team has been to the playoffs 5 times in 7 years and were still drawing flies. Spending more on players would achieve NOTHING without a new ballpark.

If they went by your economic model they would have a huge payroll, no new stadium and be drowning in debt.

Instead the NEW OWNER came in, got things done and is moving the team to a new ballpark spending PRIVATE money, and for that he is wrong?

You are the KING of blanket statements. The A's get an owner (FINALLY) who is ready to step up and build a new park and the first thing out of your mouth is "they have been crying poor, how can they afford a new stadium?" Well, the guy needed time to get everything together. You don't find a location and get the financing together for a new ballpark, while dealing with territorial rights in a week.

I know for a FACT that you'll totally disregard this entire post because your'e always right and everyone else is always wrong unless they agree with you, regardless of evidence.

phunwin
11-16-2006, 11:28 PM
Maybe.



I think Papelbon and Schilling will probally be good.

Then you have Beckett who IMO probally wont be.

Then you have Mr. Japan who is an unknown.

So Id give you probally a 50% chance of being good. 25% chance of failure and 25% chance of being great.

Just my opinion of course, you know your team better than I do.

Matsuzaka is a better investment than any free agent pitcher on the market. A rotation of Matsuzaka, Schilling, Papelbon, Beckett and Door #5 would be among the very best in baseball.

Things could go wrong, but then, Francisco Liriano could miss an entire season with a rotator cuff injury too...oh wait, that's actually going to happen.

Point is, pitching will ALWAYS have more question marks than hitting. Pitchers are, by nature, less durable and less predictable. You can sit and poke holes in anyone's rotation. Look at Detroit: they're relying on an old fart who pitched way over his head last year and a bunch of kids with, what, a total of 800 big league innings to their credit? Jeremy Bonderman, Justin Verlander and Nate Robertson are all talented, but hey, can they keep it up? What if they get hurt, as young pitchers who have hefty workloads seem to often do? But I'd bet that a minimum of 28 teams would happily swap starting rotations with the Tigers without a moment's hesitation.

The Red Sox have question marks in their rotation, but so does everyone else. Their question marks are just a little less significant.

MikeO
11-17-2006, 12:43 AM
I know for a FACT that you'll totally disregard this entire post because your'e always right and everyone else is always wrong unless they agree with you, regardless of evidence.

No I won't disregard it. I just disagree with it. They got $400 mill for a stadium but they must have a fire sale of every pitcher and say they can't afford them. I don't get that logic and won't fall for their BS.

MikeO
11-17-2006, 12:45 AM
You're trying to put down the Red Sox ownership based on stuff that never happened, and you have the audacity to call out others for showing their supposed "2nd city mentality"? Absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not gonna get into this with you if you can't talk calm and present facts. If we can't debate this like adults, I won't engage.

Alex44
11-17-2006, 12:46 AM
No I won't disregard it. I just disagree with it. They got $400 mill for a stadium but they must have a fire sale of every pitcher and say they can't afford them. I don't get that logic and won't fall for their BS.

I think your both right in a sense

All owners have money and are rich....lets just face that fact first, you know it and I know it and so does the world.

The new stadium will bring them profit if it works out correctly.

Spending that much on payroll might not bring in the same profit

When owners say they are broke or poor what it really means IMO is that if they spend what they have then they cant turn a profit.

RWhitney014
11-17-2006, 01:02 AM
I'm not gonna get into this with you if you can't talk calm and present facts. If we can't debate this like adults, I won't engage.

"Hey, Pot?"
"Yes, Kettle?"
"You're black."

unifiedtheory
11-17-2006, 02:00 AM
No I won't disregard it. I just disagree with it. They got $400 mill for a stadium but they must have a fire sale of every pitcher and say they can't afford them. I don't get that logic and won't fall for their BS.

What fire sale?

The Mulder trade? Mulder for Dan Haren, Kiko Calero and Daric Barton? I'd do that trade yasterday, today and tomorrow. I don't care what the payroll is...

The Hudson trade looked even better at the time. Charles Thomas was highly thought of Juan Cruz was a hot prospect and Dan Meyer was can't miss. The Hudson trade looked GREAt at the time.

They did'nt HAVE the $400 million when they made those trades anyway. When they made those trades they were under different ownership that had no intension of spending one red cent more on the team then they needed to...

MikeO
11-17-2006, 02:12 AM
What fire sale?

The Mulder trade? Mulder for Dan Haren, Kiko Calero and Daric Barton? I'd do that trade yasterday, today and tomorrow. I don't care what the payroll is...

The Hudson trade looked even better at the time. Charles Thomas was highly thought of Juan Cruz was a hot prospect and Dan Meyer was can't miss. The Hudson trade looked GREAt at the time.

They did'nt HAVE the $400 million when they made those trades anyway. When they made those trades they were under different ownership that had no intension of spending one red cent more on the team then they needed to...

Zito!!!!! Not even trying to re-sign him. Wanna move on to hitters....Let Giambi walk. Let Tejada walk.Damon...bye bye!! They get rid of every good player that comes through. Either through trade or just letting them walk. They say they have No money....then wham, $300 or $400 mill for a stadium. Out of nowhere!

FaninPatsyLand
11-17-2006, 11:12 AM
I'm not gonna get into this with you if you can't talk calm and present facts. If we can't debate this like adults, I won't engage.

Oh, save it. I said nothing derogatory towards you in my prior post, I simply pointed out the hypocracy of your posts.

Why can't you just back up your claims that the "Evil Empire" terminology was a tactic used by Red Sox management to divert fans' attention away from the shady business of buying the franchise? I can't wait to hear your logic behind that claim.

Let's here the "facts" behind that one, MikeO. To quote someone earlier in the thread, "JUST BACK IT UP."

GreenMonster
11-17-2006, 01:50 PM
I too would like more insight into the "Evil Empire" theory.. Who knew it was so much more than Jose Contreras..

phunwin
11-18-2006, 01:51 PM
And so yet another promising thread turns into a Yankees-Red Sox pissing match.

Edit: Holy Cow, I had no idea that "piss" was allowed by the profanity filter!

cnc66
11-18-2006, 01:58 PM
And so yet another promising thread turns into a Yankees-Red Sox pissing match.

Edit: Holy Cow, I had no idea that "piss" was allowed by the profanity filter!


pffft...it's about baseball......:shakeno:







:wink:

unifiedtheory
11-18-2006, 07:48 PM
Zito!!!!! Not even trying to re-sign him. Wanna move on to hitters....Let Giambi walk. Let Tejada walk.Damon...bye bye!! They get rid of every good player that comes through. Either through trade or just letting them walk. They say they have No money....then wham, $300 or $400 mill for a stadium. Out of nowhere!
THEY HAVE A NEW OWNER! WHAT PART OF THAT CONFUSES YOU?

Lew Wollf was NOT the owner when Giambi, Tejada and Damon walked so bringing their names ANYWHERE near this conversation is totally pointless.

Besides, Giambi for $20 million a year is rediculous anyway and I was glad when they let him walk then and I'm even happier now. the only name they have let walk that irritated me was Tejada but Beane's hands were tied.

To be honest, even if Wollf owned the team during those years they still would not have signed these players because the revenue stream simply was not there.

The new stadium just came to fruition because they finally have the land to put it on AND the financing in place to build the damn thing. They did'nt have the $400 million for the ballpark when Giambi, Tejada etc. were walking away. All they had was piss poor ownership and the worst stadium in baseball.

Now they have a good owner but STILL have the worst ballpark in baseball. This means they have to continue to do business the way they have done business for the last decade UNTIL the new park is built. Dumping money into the bottomless pit that is their current stadium situation is poor business. I'd rather see them lose a few guys here and there for the next couple of year KNOWING that the future is brighter.

BTW: You must have news I don't because Barry Zito has yet to sign anywhere. WHEN he does sign elsewhere I can accept it. giving him a 7 year, $105 million dollar contract is INSANE in my opinion. Rich Harden will be healthy, Haren is a year better, so is Blanton. The pitching staff will be just fine with or without Barry Zito.

Ray Finkle
11-21-2006, 01:38 AM
John Henry, Theo and Terry Francona met with Matsuzaka on Sunday night. Matsuzaka said he was impressed that they all met with him. No contracts were discussed apparently though.