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juniorseau55
11-23-2006, 10:10 PM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...

54zach54
11-23-2006, 10:13 PM
:yeahthat: Agreed 100%

A Wing Pilot
11-23-2006, 10:16 PM
This is the first major offensive win by joey. If he holds up to this level of performance then he deserves a fair shake.

It all factuality it's Sabans team not Joey's not JT's or Zachs. So he will have final say. All in all is daunte a more acurate passer ,better game player? Does he give us a better chance to win? Its not up to you or I its up to Coach Saban and the rest of the dolphins org. We have not seen the end of either QB. And while I'm at it had joey lost 4 instead of won the last four My guess is there would be clamoring for Daunte to come back faster. We can't play the results

adamprez2003
11-23-2006, 10:16 PM
I definitely saw some mad love for the guy from his teammates today on the sidelines but Culpepper will have his chance next year. I'm a great believer in the intangible things like heart that you mentioned and I gotta say if it was only based on heart Culpepper wouldnt stand a chance. I cant believe how much of a class guy Harrington is and his positive vibe is infectious.

Right now I would say that him, Will Allen and Reynaldo Hill are the best pickups we made in the free agent market

Jnaledu3
11-23-2006, 10:17 PM
I agree. Daunte hasnt done anything in the past 2 seasons to just get handed the starting job.

While I think Joey has made great leaps this year, he still has some way to go. But let it also be known that Joey is the first QB down here since Marino that is having success with a very inconsistant running game.

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:18 PM
You know I was hoping he would do well. When all of a sudden hes playing in the off season and then starting 4 games I was really surprised but you could tell he was not 100%.

While I hope he gets well I like the way Harrington is playing and it is now Harrington's job fand Daunte has to win it back. Lets face it, Daunte has been making stupid decisions since high school. He didnt got to UCF for his brains (im a UCF grad), it was the only school that was interested in him when he was barly eligable. The thing that always bailed him out was his size and strength and ability to run. I doubt he will ever be 100% and if you take away his running game hes rally not going to pick you apart with his passing game.

Hey we got him for a second round pick. Better deal then what we gave for Feely


This is the first major offensive win by joey. If he holds up to this level of performance then he deserves a fair shake.

It all factuality it's Sabans team not Joey's not JT's or Zachs. So he will have final say. All in all is daunte a more acurate passer ,better game player? Does he give us a better chance to win? Its not up to you or I its up to Coach Saban and the rest of the dolphins org. We have not seen the end of either QB. And while I'm at it had joey lost 4 instead of won the last four My guess is there would be clamoring for Daunte to come back faster. We can't play the results
Dont know what youve been smokeing. Dauntes passing game has always consisted of fast recievers out running the QB. He has had Chris Carter (2nd bes all time) and Moss (top 5 in NFL right now). Moss can catch anything you put near him. Carter could do the same. Its easy to win with those two. IN college he ran a spread offense against D1AA and low end D1 players. Its not hard for a good player to pick people like that apart. He also was able to run over most of the players he'd play against. More acurate, not that ive ever seen, HES always had better receivers.

NoLimit84
11-23-2006, 10:20 PM
How do you figure his injury is going to be permanent? Sure he might lose some speed but he isn't going to be limping forever.

TarHeelFinFan
11-23-2006, 10:21 PM
I wouldn't say Daunte's injury is permanent. If Daunte regains his quickness he's a Pro Bowl Caliber player. Joey has done a serviceable job, but hasn't produced any more than *gasp* Jay Fiedler did his first few years here.

NJL52
11-23-2006, 10:21 PM
A bunch of thinks I could chew you out for about this post but here are the quickest options:

Daunte has the support of all the skill players on the offense. He is their leader, you questioning his leadership abilities is completely unbased and ridiculous.

Second: who the hell are you and why do you think it is okay to insult Daunte supporters? Unless you talk to Saban, Pepp and Harrington daily then you have no right to be insulting anybody over their opinion.

FinsAreLife
11-23-2006, 10:24 PM
maybe daunte was brought here for a reason? maybe he hasnt had a propper chance? Its just funny....




seriously though, ive said it a million times. YES joey has proven himself worthy of being our starter, but i believe that there is a good chance he wont be next year for a few reasons. His mistakes leave some room for maybe someone else to do better AND they didnt bring daunte culpepper here to play just 4 games on an injured knee. But who am i to say.

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:24 PM
I wouldn't say Daunte's injury is permanent. If Daunte regains his quickness he's a Pro Bowl Caliber player. Joey has done a serviceable job, but hasn't produced any more than *gasp* Jay Fiedler did his first few years here.
Im pretty sure i never saw fiedler throw a spiral the way harrington does...


maybe daunte was brought here for a reason? maybe he hasnt had a propper chance? Its just funny....
seriously though, ive said it a million times. YES joey has proven himself worthy of being our starter, but i believe that there is a good chance he wont be next year for a few reasons. His mistakes leave some room for maybe someone else to do better AND they didnt bring daunte culpepper here to play just 4 games on an injured knee. But who am i to say.

Dude watch some UCF tape or some old vikings games...The man makes mistakes, some worse then fiedler ever made (shovel passes anyone). Hes always had great recievers around him (we have desent recievers but they are not moss or chris carter). and he had an offensive line that could ...gasp..block!!!
Even with all that He would make stupid stupid mistakes on nearly a daily basis. (excluding his near perfect season) Dude I went to UCF, when the vikeings were on for some eason people decided that they were more important then the fins or the bucs. Watch the games. they tape doesnt lie

Desides
11-23-2006, 10:24 PM
The idea that "Culpepper is our future" doesn't originate from these forums. It originates from some guy called Nick Saban saying it. It originates from the Miami Dolphins roster saying those exact words.

What bothers me is that people think Harrington is actually getting the job done. Today was his best game in a long, long time--and if he had played this way over the past six games, all of the "Harrington is great" praise around here would be justified. Anyone who plays any sport long enough is bound to have a good day--the problem is that Harrington doesn't consistently have good days.

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 10:26 PM
Honestly, I wish you'd be ashamed of the forum in general so you didnt come here. I've rarely seen a worse post then what I just saw.

I dont think you understand the fact that Joey Harrington has not been anything other then mediocre this season. Not stellar. This one, single quality game he had against a terrible team only brought him to a 1:1 INT/TD ratio.

This isnt Daunte's team and that is final? That isnt any decision you can make, or have any input whatsoever in.

Metal Panda
11-23-2006, 10:26 PM
Joey has been stellar?

I'd say he's had two, maybe three "solid" games....MAYBE three...at best.

adamprez2003
11-23-2006, 10:28 PM
Im pretty sure i never saw fiedler throw a spiral the way harrington does...

That's the thing I like with Harrington. Fiedler was capble of getting us into the playoffs but little else. Harrington might be able to win us a playoff game or two or three. He is borderline what a team with a dominating defense and good run game needs. The Baltimore Ravens/ 72 Dolphins live again baby!

QrtBck13
11-23-2006, 10:28 PM
why dont u hold up pal Daunte has proven he can get it done......Harrington never has yes hes playing well and i am almost euphoric right now but lets pull up on the rgiens its only 7 games hes played as a dolphins at the end of the year we will talk bout QB for next year until then Joey's our guy!!

NoLimit84
11-23-2006, 10:29 PM
I wouldn't say Daunte's injury is permanent. If Daunte regains his quickness he's a Pro Bowl Caliber player. Joey has done a serviceable job, but hasn't produced any more than *gasp* Jay Fiedler did his first few years here.

Seriously..I mean Joey makes just as many "dumb" mistakes as Daunte did but I could somewhat understand Daunte's problem. He wasn't mobile so he couldn't make plays with his legs so he had to try making plays with his arm when there wasn't any. Next year he won't have to do that. What's Joeys excuse for the bad plays he makes?

TarHeelFinFan
11-23-2006, 10:29 PM
Im pretty sure i never saw fiedler throw a spiral the way harrington does... I don't care how tight a spiral is, I care about yards, TDs, and taking care of the ball. Fiedler (in his first few years here)and Harrington have had similar levels of production. People just hated Fiedler because he wasn't Dan Marino, and that's who he was replacing. Now that we've endured a few years of shoddy QB play we can appreciate solid production, even if it isn't league MVP-level.

MiamiDolphins34
11-23-2006, 10:30 PM
I agree. Daunte hasnt done anything in the past 2 seasons to just get handed the starting job.

While I think Joey has made great leaps this year, he still has some way to go. But let it also be known that Joey is the first QB down here since Marino that is having success with a very inconsistant running game.

Culpepper was greedy for wanting to play when he clearly wasnt healthy costing us a few games.

54zach54
11-23-2006, 10:30 PM
You know what is the worst thing about all this recycled drivel I hear all the Daunte lovers rant and rave about how spectacular he is? It's when they flashed Drew Brees stats today, and I think to myself, YES!!! thank god we have Daunte...:fire:

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:31 PM
Seriously..I mean Joey makes just as many "dumb" mistakes as Daunte did but I could somewhat understand Daunte's problem. He wasn't mobile so he couldn't make plays with his legs so he had to try making plays with his arm when there wasn't any. Next year he won't have to do that. What's Joeys excuse for the bad plays he makes?
BAh once again. Daunte has been making stupid mistkes since highshcool and college. Even when he had Carter and Moss he would make stupid mistakes. Once again there is a reason he went to UCF. THIS JOB IS HARRINGTONS to lose


I don't care how tight a spiral is, I care about yards, TDs, and taking care of the ball. Fiedler (in his first few years here)and Harrington have had similar levels of production. People just hated Fiedler because he wasn't Dan Marino, and that's who he was replacing. Now that we've endured a few years of shoddy QB play we can appreciate solid production, even if it isn't league MVP-level.
Unless u plan on saban going out and getting moss or another block buster reciever or we get coach Kruz to be our O coordinator, dont expect a very vertical passing game. Our guys are good but they are not moss and carter..

dominizzo
11-23-2006, 10:32 PM
All i know is there will be a battle for camp next year

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:35 PM
Joey is a back up at best .. and that is what he is doing.. being a substitute back to Culpepper until C - Pepp is better.

The Lions ? :sidelol:

Joey hasn't won a game by himself yet ? The Lions :sidelol:

Every other game the defense has won for us.

Lets see what Joey does against the Jaguars D and then I'll give him some credit.


Go Daunte.. Rest up
Your our future..

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4238/event386046bi4.jpg

What did daunte do except lose us games because he refued to admit he wasnt ready. THOSE GAMES are on his shoulder. If your not ready you tell the coach, you dont tell him your good to go and then have him realize you can move in the pocket

NoLimit84
11-23-2006, 10:35 PM
It's been said numerous times by Saban and other players that Daunte is the starter. If Daunte was healthy he would be back in there, everyone knows that and I hear it whenever Miami is brought up in a discussion. It isn't Joey's job.

Brad528
11-23-2006, 10:36 PM
I agree. Daunte hasnt done anything in the past 2 seasons to just get handed the starting job.

While I think Joey has made great leaps this year, he still has some way to go. But let it also be known that Joey is the first QB down here since Marino that is having success with a very inconsistant running game.
Bull****. He is not having any more success then Fiedler or Gus. He is winning games because of defense just like they did. Daunte is a proven Pro Bowler while Joey is a proven scrub plain and simple. ANd it is a sad day to be a dolphin fan when I see Joey starting a game and an even sadder day when our fans think he should start over Daunte or anyone for that matter.

adamprez2003
11-23-2006, 10:37 PM
Joey is a back up at best .. and that is what he is doing.. being a substitute back to Culpepper until C - Pepp is better.

The Lions ? :sidelol:

Joey hasn't won a game by himself yet ? The Lions :sidelol:

Every other game the defense has won for us.

Lets see what Joey does against the Jaguars D and then I'll give him some credit.


Go Daunte.. Rest up
Your our future..

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4238/event386046bi4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://img237.imageshack.us/)

Dude the day you give Joey an ounce of credit is the day the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse come storming into Miami:lol:

Cannonboy
11-23-2006, 10:37 PM
We can't keeping changing QB's every year. Our receivers need to develop chemistry and trust with our QB. If Joey keeps playing like he is now, I say keep him for next year as the starter. We don't need a QB who lites up the game with stats. As long as we have one one can manage the game, have no turnovers we should be fine. Win the game with defense, decent QB play and a good running game. The how we did it in the 70's and that's how we should do it now.

Desides
11-23-2006, 10:39 PM
What did daunte do except lose us games because he refued to admit he wasnt ready.

Funny, not a single person--be it a fan, a coach, a doctor, or Culpepper himself--had doubts about his ability to play. He participated fully in training camp, and there was nothing in his preseason performance that indicated that he wasn't ready.

Far, far too many people here are too eager to opt for the devil they know in the form of the game-managing QB.

NoLimit84
11-23-2006, 10:40 PM
We can't keeping changing QB's every year. Our receivers need to develop chemistry and trust with our QB. If Joey keeps playing like he is now, I say keep him for next year as the starter. We don't need a QB who lites up the game with stats. As long as we have one one can manage the game, have no turnovers we should be fine. Win the game with defense, decent QB play and a good running game. The how we did it in the 70's and that's how we should do it now.

That's the problem. All Joey does is turn it over. It's sad when fans EXPECT him to get 2 turnovers a game. What do you think is worse for a team: A sack and 7 yard loss on first down or an interception and 6 points the other way. The knock on Daunte was sacks, while Joey throws picks. This is Joey at his best which is still leading to an average offense, we haven't seen Daunte at his best...yet.

Prime Time
11-23-2006, 10:40 PM
Culpepper went 1-3....Harrington has gone 4-3... Huge improvement? :nono:

give Culpepper more time...

And our Defense held them to under 30 yards rushing I believe...keeping them off the field helped us tremendously...

Phanatical
11-23-2006, 10:41 PM
That's the thing I like with Harrington. Fiedler was capble of getting us into the playoffs but little else. Harrington might be able to win us a playoff game or two or three. He is borderline what a team with a dominating defense and good run game needs. The Baltimore Ravens/ 72 Dolphins live again baby!

Fiedler won a playoff game in 2000 vs. the Colts, of course, Lamar Smith rushed for like 250 yards. :evil:

PhinFan0202
11-23-2006, 10:41 PM
Joey played pretty well today. I say we have the whole off-season to wonder if Joey or Dante is going to be the starter and let's just focus on the now. Joey threw 3TDs today against the team that bounced him from their organization because they didn't feel that they could win with him. He not only threw three TDs but he won the iron man award in their house. We are now a 5-6 team with real playoff possibilities. I say we start talking about that...

dolphan117
11-23-2006, 10:42 PM
A couple things- One I would love to know what medical information you are basing this statement

With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?Because apparently it isn't what Saban thinks or has been told by the doctors. Keep in mind too that apparently you should be ashamed of the skill position player on our offense.
With no disrespect toward quarterback Joey Harrington, Marty Booker, McMichael and Chambers all agreed that Culpepper will be their quarterback of the future.

"Definitely, there's no doubt in my mind," Chambers said.
Joey impressed me very much today but lets keep in mind he was facing an AWFULL pass D today. Prior to the game today that D was letting opposing QB's complete almost 70 percent of their passes. (I think the actual number was 68.4 or something) If he can carry over his play from today though who know.... Maybe in the future we would have some controversy. Prior to this game though there was none. Pep was viewed as the future.

Cannonboy
11-23-2006, 10:42 PM
Joey seems to be limiting his mistakes as the games go on. With more game experience he should probably get better.

54zach54
11-23-2006, 10:42 PM
Bull****. He is not having any more success then Fiedler or Gus. He is winning games because of defense just like they did. Daunte is a proven Pro Bowler while Joey is a proven scrub plain and simple. ANd it is a sad day to be a dolphin fan when I see Joey starting a game and an even sadder day when our fans think he should start over Daunte or anyone for that matter.


Daunte WAS a proven starter with a little help of 2 PRO BOWL caliber wide receivers... Randy Moss / Chris Carter

Desides
11-23-2006, 10:43 PM
We don't need a QB who lites up the game with stats. As long as we have one one can manage the game, have no turnovers we should be fine. Win the game with defense, decent QB play and a good running game.

This is what we've done since Dan Marino retired. How many more seasons must we use this formula before people realize that it doesn't work? I'm more convinced than ever that people are high on Joey and down on Daunte simply because Harrington is a game-managing QB in the vein of Fiedler, Frerotte, and Feeley.

We are not going to win the Super Bowl with a QB who is merely a good game manager.


The how we did it in the 70's and that's how we should do it now.

Oakland's offensive coordinator has that philosophy. How's that working out for them?

adamprez2003
11-23-2006, 10:43 PM
Fiedler won a playoff game in 2000 vs. the Colts, of course, Lamar Smith rushed for like 250 yards. :evil:

Our defense is going to be better then 2000 and what would you rather have - Lamar Smith or Ricky and Ronnie:lol:

FinNasty
11-23-2006, 10:44 PM
I still strongly believe that Daunte is our future. I was impressed with Joey today... but thats the first time I have been impressed with him, and he was playing against maybe the worst pass defense in the league.

If Joey continues to play like that... especially against the Jags and Pats... I might change my mind. But out of all of the games he has played... this is the first one he has impressed me in. And again... it was vs. Detroit...

Desides
11-23-2006, 10:45 PM
Daunte WAS a proven starter with a little help of 2 PRO BOWL caliber wide receivers... Randy Moss / Chris Carter

This has been disproven many times in the past on this forum. Off the top of my head, Culpepper's 2004 numbers were 3900 passing yards, 39 TDs. Randy Moss' numbers were 760 yards and 13 TDs. That means that around 3100 passing yards and 26 TDs were achieved by Culpepper throwing to players not named Randy Moss.

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:45 PM
Bull****. He is not having any more success then Fiedler or Gus. He is winning games because of defense just like they did. Daunte is a proven Pro Bowler while Joey is a proven scrub plain and simple. ANd it is a sad day to be a dolphin fan when I see Joey starting a game and an even sadder day when our fans think he should start over Daunte or anyone for that matter.

Not difficult to be a prow bowler when you throw to moss. If you dont throw to him the chances are also good that someone on your team will catch the ball cause all other defenders are on moss...

REally DID any of you here all up on Culpeppers nuts ever see him play in college or in minisota? Hes a good QB who ended up in a GREAT situation. AJ Feely could have been a pro Bowler in that team when they had carter and moss...

Seriously watch any game that moss wasnt playing in. More often then not it ended in a "L"

tonto_phin
11-23-2006, 10:45 PM
you should be ashamed of reading Don Banks' story and using it as your own idea to bury Pep before he is even dead

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/don_banks/11/21/mcnabb/index.html

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 10:46 PM
Daunte WAS a proven starter with a little help of 2 PRO BOWL caliber wide receivers... Randy Moss / Chris Carter

Except he played very well when Moss was hurt in 2004, and didnt really have much of Cris Carter.

Dont let facts stop you, though

Cannonboy
11-23-2006, 10:46 PM
I think Joey is a step above the 3 F brothers. Lets see how the rest of the season pans out. Maybe we have another Brady or maybe we have another Feeley.

NJFINSFAN1
11-23-2006, 10:46 PM
Can't we just root for the Fins without this crap????????????????????

We get another win and this stuff pops up again.

Stop the insanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:47 PM
Funny, not a single person--be it a fan, a coach, a doctor, or Culpepper himself--had doubts about his ability to play. He participated fully in training camp, and there was nothing in his preseason performance that indicated that he wasn't ready.

Far, far too many people here are too eager to opt for the devil they know in the form of the game-managing QB.
and he couldnt move in a pocket...what good did that do us?

nikeair497
11-23-2006, 10:47 PM
I'm ashamed to see someone gave you access to this messageboard. It's just funny...

unifiedtheory
11-23-2006, 10:48 PM
I love it when people start threads JUST BECAUSE they know it will turn into the debate of the century.

bigchub22
11-23-2006, 10:48 PM
The idea that "Culpepper is our future" doesn't originate from these forums. It originates from some guy called Nick Saban saying it. It originates from the Miami Dolphins roster saying those exact words.

What bothers me is that people think Harrington is actually getting the job done. Today was his best game in a long, long time--and if he had played this way over the past six games, all of the "Harrington is great" praise around here would be justified. Anyone who plays any sport long enough is bound to have a good day--the problem is that Harrington doesn't consistently have good days.


[edited]Cpep he is getting it done? The bills game he looked like a junior high quarterback out there with those decisions and nice record oh with Joey were actually getting something called wins but maybe you didnt know that cause your obviously oblivious to the fact that JOEY IS GETTING IT DONE ....UNBELIEVABLE COMMENT ON YOUR PART:fire:


personal attacks/inappropriate comments not allowed

Desides
11-23-2006, 10:48 PM
Not difficult to be a prow bowler when you throw to moss. If you dont throw to him the chances are also good that someone on your team will catch the ball cause all other defenders are on moss...

This season, two QBs have thrown to Randy Moss: Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter. Neither will make it to the Pro Bowl. Neither will Moss.

A good QB needs a good WR, and vice-versa. If you can't get the ball to the WR, what's the point of having him out there. And likewise, if the WR can't do anything with the ball, what's the point of throwing it to him?

54zach54
11-23-2006, 10:48 PM
Except he played very well when Moss was hurt in 2004, and didnt really have much of Cris Carter.

Dont let facts stop you, though
hmm... Let's pull out 2005 stats...

allred65
11-23-2006, 10:49 PM
Seriously..I mean Joey makes just as many "dumb" mistakes as Daunte did but I could somewhat understand Daunte's problem. He wasn't mobile so he couldn't make plays with his legs so he had to try making plays with his arm when there wasn't any. Next year he won't have to do that. What's Joeys excuse for the bad plays he makes?

I think DC's problems are more than just his legs. He has a tough time making quick reads, and that is a big part of the problem he has had giving up sacks.

tonto_phin
11-23-2006, 10:49 PM
3 things could happen:

1. Pep gets back to where he was physically and becomes a 30/10 kind of QB

2. Pep is not the same physically and becomes a decent pocket QB

3. Pep is not the same physically and never plays well again

nobody will really know until well into the '07 season, so cool it

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:49 PM
Daunte WAS a proven starter with a little help of 2 PRO BOWL caliber wide receivers... Randy Moss / Chris Carter

EXACTLY...

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 10:49 PM
[edited]Cpep he is getting it done? The bills game he looked like a junior high quarterback out there with those decisions and nice record oh with Joey were actually getting something called wins but maybe you didnt know that cause your obviously oblivious to the fact that JOEY IS GETTING IT DONE ....UNBELIEVABLE COMMENT ON YOUR PART:fire:
Uh, Culpepper didnt play well, but besides today the Dolphins have been winning with a good running game and better defense then we had early on. They are winning despite Harrington.

Silverphin
11-23-2006, 10:51 PM
hmm... Let's pull out 2005 stats...

Like Culpepper is the only QB in history to have a bad season.

NoLimit84
11-23-2006, 10:51 PM
I think DC's problems are more than just his legs. He has a tough time making quick reads, and that is a big part of the problem he has had giving up sacks.

True, however in the past he used his legs to get away and make a play. He can't do that anymore so he either holds the ball too long or tries to make a play to make up for the fact he can't scramble. When he gets healthy he'll be much better.

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 10:53 PM
hmm... Let's pull out 2005 stats...

So, what exactly is your conclusion? He performed well in 7 games with Randy Moss being out, not catching a pass, or being extremely limited.

Culpepper performed poorly in 7 games in 2005 with some mitigating circumstances other then Moss being gone.

I'm not sure how you can take that input and come to the conclusion that Daunte Culpepper was made with Randy Moss.

In fact, I dont understand how you can have any historical knowledge of the NFL and believe that a reciever can "make" a quarterback. Not Jerry Rice. Not Randy Moss. Not Jesus "Hands" Christ in a jersey. They can certainly make the job easier, but they cant make the quarterback.

54zach54
11-23-2006, 10:54 PM
3 things could happen:

1. Pep gets back to where he was physically and becomes a 30/10 kind of QB

2. Pep is not the same physically and becomes a decent pocket QB

3. Pep is not the same physically and never plays well again

nobody will really know until well into the '07 season, so cool it


Let's hope for #1 :dolphins: Hey Tonto_phin sorry for :argue: a few weeks back, I was just in a can't believe we are 1-5 mode and was lashing out...

Desides
11-23-2006, 10:54 PM
hmm... Let's pull out 2005 stats...

2005 saw Minnesota's offensive roster decimated. It wasn't the loss of Randy Moss so much as it was a general shakeup on the offense that forced everyone to learn as they went. Culpepper sustaining a knee injury against Tampa Bay at the beginning of the season didn't help either.


and he couldnt move in a pocket...what good did that do us?

For a QB to move in a pocket, first a pocket must exist. Culpepper saw no such thing, except for a while against the Steelers. 20+ sacks in four games is an indictment of the offensive line, not the QB. Culpepper displayed faith in his linemen by taking each sack, getting up, and continuing to look down the field at his receivers.

It's amazing how Culpepper's faith in his teammates is somehow an indictment of his ability to play.

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:56 PM
I think DC's problems are more than just his legs. He has a tough time making quick reads, and that is a big part of the problem he has had giving up sacks.

ONCE again why is it hard for anyone to see this? HE has been making stupid mistakes since college...Ill say it again. I SAW this man play against D1AA teams and he could have great games and he would then throw the ball away 3 times to actual BCS teams. Daunte DIDnt go to UCF because of his brains. He went because that team basically forced him to get good enough to qualify academically.

He has never been one to sit and read defences. He relied on his size and ability to run. He is never going to have 100% of that ability to run back which makes him less effective there.. seriously some one watch some tape and there are enough plays there to make you wonder...

tonto_phin
11-23-2006, 10:56 PM
Culpepper performed poorly in 7 games in 2005 with some mitigating circumstances other then Moss being gone.


he lost his OC and his pro-bowl center because the Vikings are a cheap, 2nd class organization

add that to Moss and that is alot of mitigation

adamprez2003
11-23-2006, 10:57 PM
I think Joey is a step above the 3 F brothers. Lets see how the rest of the season pans out. Maybe we have another Brady or maybe we have another Feeley.

That's the thing I like most about Harrington ( and Culpepper infact). Their names dont start with an F (the association is classic)

clbrazee
11-23-2006, 10:58 PM
What I think a lot of you are trying to say is if JOey keeps leading us to wins it will be hard for CP to get the starting QB job back. Chemistry is important and its come a long ways with Joey and the receivers. One receiver has not adjusted and that's Chris Chambers. Even today he just stood their and let the pass get intercepted.

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 10:58 PM
ONCE again why is it hard for anyone to see this? HE has been making stupid mistakes since college...Ill say it again. I SAW this man play against D1AA teams and he could have great games and he would then throw the ball away 3 times to actual BCS teams. Daunte DIDnt go to UCF because of his brains. He went because that team basically forced him to get good enough to qualify academically.

He has never been one to sit and read defences. He relied on his size and ability to run. He is never going to have 100% of that ability to run back which makes him less effective there.. seriously some one watch some tape and there are enough plays there to make you wonder...

You do understand he has the NCAA record for completion %, right?

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:59 PM
2005 saw Minnesota's offensive roster decimated. It wasn't the loss of Randy Moss so much as it was a general shakeup on the offense that forced everyone to learn as they went. Culpepper sustaining a knee injury against Tampa Bay at the beginning of the season didn't help either.



For a QB to move in a pocket, first a pocket must exist. Culpepper saw no such thing, except for a while against the Steelers. 20+ sacks in four games is an indictment of the offensive line, not the QB. Culpepper displayed faith in his linemen by taking each sack, getting up, and continuing to look down the field at his receivers.

It's amazing how Culpepper's faith in his teammates is somehow an indictment of his ability to play.

Theres a thing called throwing it away. Theres a thing called SIDE STEPPING.. IN THE NFL you need to be able to side step. His lateral movement was almost non existant. therfore he was not ready...therfore he came back to stroke his ego, and lost 4 games for us.

Dmarino110
11-23-2006, 10:59 PM
You do understand he has the NCAA record for completion %, right?
OKay now go find out the teams he was playing against...K thanks...not hard to do when you playing Lafayette or ul Monroe. I am a UCF grad and Id love for him to be great but I I dont see it happening. ANd all i see are people grasping at a player who will never be 100% again.

When you go to UCf you watch games with people from your school in it because we dont have a lot out there yet. I watched a lot of minisota games over 5 years. He made a lot of stupid mistakes in those years

cltchperf
11-23-2006, 11:00 PM
I don't care how tight a spiral is, I care about yards, TDs, and taking care of the ball. Fiedler (in his first few years here)and Harrington have had similar levels of production. People just hated Fiedler because he wasn't Dan Marino, and that's who he was replacing. Now that we've endured a few years of shoddy QB play we can appreciate solid production, even if it isn't league MVP-level.

No it was because Jay Fiedler had a weak arm and was very inaccurate, plus injury prone. He could not seem to be able to play a whole season without missing four or five games as well. I have never been a Culpepper supporter, nor a Harrington hater. I want the best qb for Miami. I am very happy with the way Joey played today, and this has been his best game by far. But, I must be psychic, because I had a feeling a rediculous thread like this would show up. Culpepper needs to play more and the jury is still out, give the guy a chance when he's feeling better. Maybe he will be able to move around again and maybe he won't, but we don't know yet.

And even if he can't move like he used, he could still some scrambling back, which would be an imrovement from his knee, which his still hurting him enough or affecting him to be very immobile which is a very unusualy scenario. Culpepper getting healthier and feeling better, partially would still make him more mobile than a good portion of starting qbs in the league. Stop with the nonsense, Culpepper should have more than four games when he's back, and he deserves, and we should truly see. And not jump the gun on judgment, which so many people on this forum do. If Culpepper doesn't pan out, then we draft a qb, because I'm still not sure if Joey would be the starting qb for Miami that could take them to the super bowl. I still want to see more from him.

Desides
11-23-2006, 11:01 PM
Theres a thing called throwing it away. Theres a thing called SIDE STEPPING.. IN THE NFL you need to be able to side step. His lateral movement was almost non existant. therfore he was not ready...therfore he came back to stroke his ego, and lost 4 games for us.

I really wish I could say what I think of that thought process, but since I've gotten warned for less, I'm just putting you on my ignore list and calling it even.

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 11:01 PM
Theres a thing called throwing it away. Theres a thing called SIDE STEPPING.. IN THE NFL you need to be able to side step. His lateral movement was almost non existant. therfore he was not ready...therfore he came back to stroke his ego, and lost 4 games for us.

He came back because he, his doctors, and the team thought he was ready. It was not Daunte's sole decision to make.

54zach54
11-23-2006, 11:06 PM
So, what exactly is your conclusion? He performed well in 7 games with Randy Moss being out, not catching a pass, or being extremely limited.

Culpepper performed poorly in 7 games in 2005 with some mitigating circumstances other then Moss being gone.

I'm not sure how you can take that input and come to the conclusion that Daunte Culpepper was made with Randy Moss.

In fact, I dont understand how you can have any historical knowledge of the NFL and believe that a reciever can "make" a quarterback. Not Jerry Rice. Not Randy Moss. Not Jesus "Hands" Christ in a jersey. They can certainly make the job easier, but they cant make the quarterback.

The guy cannot hold on to the ball for starters, it's been an issue with him since day one, he just has not done one thing to impress me since he's been in Miami. We would have been 0-4 if not for a penalty be Tennessee, and like I have said before, if he was hiding his injury during the pre-season / first games, it just shows how selfish he really is. I just do not see why you all support him so much without him proving a single thing while being in
M-I-A-M-I

Eliot
11-23-2006, 11:07 PM
Daunte WAS a proven starter with a little help of 2 PRO BOWL caliber wide receivers... Randy Moss / Chris Carter
This goes both ways. :wink:

btw why all the hate on players of our own team? Why can't we all just be happy about Joey playing good football against his old team and being a servicable starter so far. While hoping for Daunte to have a good rehab which should/might give us an upgrade on that position. Both these guys, as every other player on this team, has my full support.

sammy2008
11-23-2006, 11:07 PM
Be ashamed and respect the opinion of others.

tonto_phin
11-23-2006, 11:08 PM
I was very excited about Pep's rehab

then I heard about the problems that a torn PCL could present to a QB

let's hope for the best

Disgustipate
11-23-2006, 11:15 PM
The guy cannot hold on to the ball for starters, it's been an issue with him since day one, he just has not done one thing to impress me since he's been in Miami. We would have been 0-4 if not for a penalty be Tennessee, and like I have said before, if he was hiding his injury during the pre-season / first games, it just shows how selfish he really is. I just do not see why you all support him so much without him proving a single thing while being in
M-I-A-M-I


His turnovers are one thing, but you need to take into consideration the massive amount of attempts and the kind of game he has played in his career
Please go look at the Culpepper manifesto and educate yourself.

PS- If you believe Daunte Culpepper had the ability to somehow hide his injury from everyone, then I am not capable of helping you. May God have mercy on your soul, and hope that Natural Selection may miss you and you lead a long life.

Mainge
11-23-2006, 11:23 PM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...
Thanks Doc! I'm so glad you shared your vast knowledge, and obvious expertise. :rolleyes:

HybridPHIN 23
11-24-2006, 12:11 AM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...
That's just like........... your opinion, Man. :o

Your ashamed at people who believe in Daunte........ we're ashamed that your going out of your way to promote Joey and trash daunte. Younger ??? by how much exactly ? Your forgetting that Joey is a backup playing out the season. Maybe he'll earn a starting job.. but to say this is his team when we could possibly now make a significant profit off of him in the offseason ala Draft pick.... let's take this slow. I'm just as pumped about Joey playing well as anyone.... except for maybe the slelect few Joey Fans... But let's see how this goes before we crown him the guy to take us to the promise land. I can't wait to play the Jags, where's Lee Suggs ?? call him up.

DrewOldSchool
11-24-2006, 12:15 AM
Joey's the backup.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 12:25 AM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...

:lol: Joey stellar? What games are you watching? He played very well today. And for the rest of the time he has been mediocre. Overall, he has been decent. If you don't think Daunte will at least get a shot to compete for the starting job next year, you are sorely mistaken. We gave up too much, are paying him too much, and he is far too talented to not be given at worst a shot to start next year.

miaD5499
11-24-2006, 12:40 AM
i know daunte didnt give many a good first impression but you have to be realistic and see that it was just not real for him to come in so early back from such a drastic injury and play well, joey has been playing great and i really would like him to stay with the team for a while but theres too much emphasis to not give daunte another shot we traded for him and we cant just give up after 4 games, we are going to have to go through it again next year and see how it works out and if it starts off shaky well we know who we have incase JOEY

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 01:15 AM
Hell by the reasoning of this thread, we should start Sammy Morris for the rest of this year and next year. Ronnie is hurt and might not play. Sammy came in and did a decent in Ronnie's absence. So lets just ignore Ronnie's talent and paycheck and bench the guy along with Daunte. After all, we won the game today with Sammy in there and wininng is all that matters. Hey, lets just trade Daunte and Ronnie for some winners. Cause we can obviously win without them.

pwn3dyo
11-24-2006, 01:18 AM
I think Culpepper could be the future. He wasn't healthy at all this year. We shall see how he does next year.

xflashx
11-24-2006, 02:28 AM
remember guys Daunte is pretty much done nothing his whole career. Seriously, I'm not trying to hate I like Daunte alot and want him to do good but think about he had a couple good seasons had good numbers but what does that mean numbers arent everything. Remember his best season i guess you could say losing to the giants 41-0. I mean 0 points he put on the board. Damn thats bad. Now hes older, injured, still makes mistakes out of his prime almost if not already. It is i think Joeys job to lose now, we'll see next training camp. Maybe though Joey will earn the spot before the year is up.

NoLimit84
11-24-2006, 02:33 AM
remember guys Daunte is pretty much done nothing his whole career. Seriously, I'm not trying to hate I like Daunte alot and want him to do good but think about he had a couple good seasons had good numbers but what does that mean numbers arent everything. Remember his best season i guess you could say losing to the giants 41-0. I mean 0 points he put on the board. Damn thats bad. Now hes older, injured, still makes mistakes out of his prime almost if not already. It is i think Joeys job to lose now, we'll see next training camp. Maybe though Joey will earn the spot before the year is up.

Off the top of your head. Who was their running back? Their second and third receivers? Their defensive line? Sorry to say a 41-0 loss isn't Daunte not putting up points...It's the Vikings not putting up points or stopping the other team from scoring.

djphinfan
11-24-2006, 02:40 AM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...sorry,you lost me at stellar.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 02:47 AM
remember guys Daunte is pretty much done nothing his whole career. Seriously, I'm not trying to hate I like Daunte alot and want him to do good but think about he had a couple good seasons had good numbers but what does that mean numbers arent everything. Remember his best season i guess you could say losing to the giants 41-0. I mean 0 points he put on the board. Damn thats bad. Now hes older, injured, still makes mistakes out of his prime almost if not already. It is i think Joeys job to lose now, we'll see next training camp. Maybe though Joey will earn the spot before the year is up.

I don't know how in the hell you measure QB success but it sure doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Players that go to probowls and have one of the greatest seasons ever by any individual at their position have accomplished things. I am assuming you are saying he hasn't accomplished anything because he hasn't won a Super Bowll. I don't have the energy or patience to explain to you how absurd that reasoning is right now. But I guess you think Dan Marino didn't accomplish anything in his career either. :shakeno:

Silverphin
11-24-2006, 02:50 AM
remember guys Daunte is pretty much done nothing his whole career. Seriously, I'm not trying to hate I like Daunte alot and want him to do good but think about he had a couple good seasons had good numbers but what does that mean numbers arent everything. Remember his best season i guess you could say losing to the giants 41-0. I mean 0 points he put on the board. Damn thats bad. Now hes older, injured, still makes mistakes out of his prime almost if not already. It is i think Joeys job to lose now, we'll see next training camp. Maybe though Joey will earn the spot before the year is up.

Unless Daunte was also a starter on defense, you can't contribute that lost totally to him.

xflashx
11-24-2006, 03:09 AM
lol did anyone of you watch that NFC game in 2000 anyway???? yea okay the defense didnt help and the viking went down quick 14-0 but Culpepper completed only 13 of 28 passes for 78 yards, with 3 interceptions, while Moss caught only 2 passes for 18 yards. Ive seen trade Chambers but i know why they traded Moss lol. The offense lost them that game. There were 5 turnovers on the vikings 4 of course on who yea culpepper. I like culpepper im not basking at all really I'm just being realisitc Culpepper shouldnt have to be in this conversation I hope he comes back and tears is up but my point dont ever compare Daunte Culpepper to Dan Marino hes far from that

Silverphin
11-24-2006, 03:13 AM
lol did anyone of you watch that NFC game in 2000 anyway???? yea okay the defense didnt help and the viking went down quick 14-0 but Culpepper completed only 13 of 28 passes for 78 yards, with 3 interceptions, while Moss caught only 2 passes for 18 yards. Ive seen trade Chambers but i know why they traded Moss lol. The offense lost them that game. There were 5 turnovers on the vikings 4 of course on who yea culpepper. I like culpepper im not basking at all really I'm just being realisitc Culpepper shouldnt have to be in this conversation I hope he comes back and tears is up but my point dont ever compare Daunte Culpepper to Dan Marino hes far from that

Okay, but I've seen worse days out of other quarterbacks. I'm not saying he's Dan Marino (IMO, there'll never be another damn marino). But we should give him a chance for next year.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 03:14 AM
lol did anyone of you watch that NFC game in 2000 anyway???? yea okay the defense didnt help and the viking went down quick 14-0 but Culpepper completed only 13 of 28 passes for 78 yards, with 3 interceptions, while Moss caught only 2 passes for 18 yards. Ive seen trade Chambers but i know why they traded Moss lol. The offense lost them that game. There were 5 turnovers on the vikings 4 of course on who yea culpepper. I like culpepper im not basking at all really I'm just being realisitc Culpepper shouldnt have to be in this conversation I hope he comes back and tears is up but my point dont ever compare Daunte Culpepper to Dan Marino hes far from that

I was not trying to compare the two. No one is better than Dan Marino. But even Dolphin fans don't realize how counterintuitive their arguments are when they go with the whole, 'he hasn't won anything and therefore hasn't proved anything or isn't great' thing.

GoonBoss
11-24-2006, 03:15 AM
I punch in/out every day, and, I know me and, i'm happy with me.

If you are ashamed of "Me" Tehn, SCREW OFF!

I'll have any opinion I like.

DonShula84
11-24-2006, 03:16 AM
I mean Joey has been stellar with us

We clearly have different ideas of what constitutes stellar.

GoonBoss
11-24-2006, 03:26 AM
We clearly have different ideas of what constitutes stellar.


255 147 57.6 150 45.90467107/6315367.5

Stellar.


:lol:

EDIT......My smart *** answer went alot better with my cut/paste

xflashx
11-24-2006, 03:37 AM
dplunk (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/member.php?u=18195) what i meant is Culpepper is out of his prime most likley he hasnt "done" anything. Losing like that is a big indication that most likley he isnt the man for the job thats all im saying. I like the guy great athlete but I think hes done. I wish he would get healthy and come back though i really do, I want to see just as much as anybody if he still has it. Just being overall realistic about his situation.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 04:03 AM
dplunk (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/member.php?u=18195) what i meant is Culpepper is out of his prime most likley he hasnt "done" anything. Losing like that is a big indication that most likley he isnt the man for the job thats all im saying. I like the guy great athlete but I think hes done. I wish he would get healthy and come back though i really do, I want to see just as much as anybody if he still has it. Just being overall realistic about his situation.

Aight I see what you are saying. But what about the other playoff game that year? At New Orleans he went 17 for 31 302 yards 3 TD 0 INT. Thats pretty good. For every bad playoff game in his career he has a very good one. His overall stats in the playoffs are 73 for 134 980 yards 8 TD 5 INT, 17 rushes 140 yards 1 TD. Pretty good numbers and all of them are on the road.

As for his injury, he is still only about 30 years old. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing for him to not have the great mobility he had before. You simply need to be mobile enough to move within the pocket and avoid the rush. Even at 75% of what he was before, he is still probably as mobile as most QBs in the league. It is understandable to think he may not get back to the probowl QB he was before. But if he can get back to being similar to what he was, that is still a pretty good QB.

kud
11-24-2006, 04:36 AM
Let the dreamers dream Junior. At least some of us have a grip on reality.

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 04:38 AM
I am ashamed that I read this post. Man, what a horrible waste of time.

Gareth1213
11-24-2006, 05:02 AM
Come on.....

Right now, Joey's the starter, not the backup, the starter. He played really well today, and if it continues we might just have a shot.

Right now, CPeps not on the team due to injury, when he played he was awful.

Yep, CP's injured, and i hope he gets fit, but the sacks were mostly down to him - is the offensive line playing that much better? In yesterdays match i saw joey scramble well to keep plays alive and not consistently great blocking. (And someonetimes int's are down to good def play, the throw was good the lion just made a good read - should have been going for the FG anyway)

Next year Joey should (unless there's a complete meltdown) be the presumptive starter as he's the one who's got the job now, and then it's down to CP to win the job. If he's back to 2004 form he should find it easy, if we're talking 2005/2006........

Let it be decided on who is playing better in TC and the pre-season, not on draft picks and salary.

cltchperf
11-24-2006, 05:04 AM
You simply need to be mobile enough to move within the pocket and avoid the rush. Even at 75% of what he was before, he is still probably as mobile as most QBs in the league.

Exactly.:yes:

VanDolPhan
11-24-2006, 05:08 AM
Let the dreamers dream Junior. At least some of us have a grip on reality.

Only because your in bizarro world. Backup QB finally has a good game and the QB whose actually done something in his career gets dismissed. Of course those saying that now will completely hide on the topic next year when they see Culpepper starting, or change their forum names or just disappear completely. Comes around all the time.

Phanatical
11-24-2006, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dplunk
You simply need to be mobile enough to move within the pocket and avoid the rush. Even at 75% of what he was before, he is still probably as mobile as most QBs in the league.


Yes, that's true, he's mobile, but is he a good QB???? Can he learn to read defenses and avoid the costly picks, sacks and fumbles?

cnc66
11-24-2006, 08:24 AM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...

you are just trolling again...this should be in spam...along with most of your threads. When the thread title itself is an insult to someone...it's garbage.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 09:56 AM
Dr. Junior now....:sidelol:

Someone giving medical predictions when they don't have the years studying or practicing it...

By the way why is McGahee, Palmer, and other who have surgically repaired knees playing at high level...:confused:

MOVE ALONG, NOTHING TO SEE HERE...

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif...

Desides
11-24-2006, 10:01 AM
By the way why is McGahee, Palmer, and other who have surgically repaired knees playing at high level...:confused:

Palmer isn't playing at a high level. He's having a horrible year. McGahee's gone through the two year period generally believed to be the recovery time from a major knee injury.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 10:25 AM
Not difficult to be a prow bowler when you throw to moss. If you dont throw to him the chances are also good that someone on your team will catch the ball cause all other defenders are on moss...

REally DID any of you here all up on Culpeppers nuts ever see him play in college or in minisota? Hes a good QB who ended up in a GREAT situation. AJ Feely could have been a pro Bowler in that team when they had carter and moss...

Seriously watch any game that moss wasnt playing in. More often then not it ended in a "L"

The results were basically the same...as when Randy played...:wink:

Randy with Daunte won 48% (31-33) of the games...

Daunte without Randy won 40% (2-3)...not a big difference in effeciency...

So both together could not really inspire the team to more victories as much as some here think...

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 10:28 AM
Let the dreamers dream Junior. At least some of us have a grip on reality.Scarry thought....:D

pigskinguy
11-24-2006, 10:42 AM
Honestly, I wish you'd be ashamed of the forum in general so you didnt come here. I've rarely seen a worse post then what I just saw.

I dont think you understand the fact that Joey Harrington has not been anything other then mediocre this season. Not stellar. This one, single quality game he had against a terrible team only brought him to a 1:1 INT/TD ratio.

This isnt Daunte's team and that is final? That isnt any decision you can make, or have any input whatsoever in.

You're right. Harrington has been mediocre this season. Culpepper, on the other hand, has been downright putrid.
And he has been for 2 seasons now.

muscle979
11-24-2006, 10:53 AM
maybe daunte was brought here for a reason? maybe he hasnt had a propper chance? Its just funny....




seriously though, ive said it a million times. YES joey has proven himself worthy of being our starter, but i believe that there is a good chance he wont be next year for a few reasons. His mistakes leave some room for maybe someone else to do better AND they didnt bring daunte culpepper here to play just 4 games on an injured knee. But who am i to say.

Or rather they didn't pay a 2nd rounder for Daunte to ride the bench. Short of a miracle super bowl run this season he'll get another shot.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 11:31 AM
Palmer isn't playing at a high level. He's having a horrible year. McGahee's gone through the two year period generally believed to be the recovery time from a major knee injury.

WOoo you must really be at a loss...

Last years Palmers was:

(16 games) 345 comp, 509 atts (67% comp), 3,836 yds (7.5 YPA), 32 TDs, 12 INTs (2.6 TD-INT ratio), and 101% QBR...

This year currently he is

(10 games) 203 comp, 322 atts (63% comp), 2,593 yds (8.1 YPA), 18 TDs, 7 INTs (2.5 TD-INT ratio), and 98% QBR...

If you don't see the similarities in this than you hold higher standards than most....:wink:

EDITED- I wish that Daunte would have been this horrible for us this year....

MiamiDolphins34
11-24-2006, 11:31 AM
Joey's the backup.

:sidelol: With the "backup" we are winning with the "starter" we were losing.

Stop hating:shakeno:

Canadianfishfan
11-24-2006, 11:35 AM
A bunch of thinks I could chew you out for about this post but here are the quickest options:

Daunte has the support of all the skill players on the offense. He is their leader, you questioning his leadership abilities is completely unbased and ridiculous.

Second: who the hell are you and why do you think it is okay to insult Daunte supporters? Unless you talk to Saban, Pepp and Harrington daily then you have no right to be insulting anybody over their opinion.

You cant speak on behalf of the players in the lockerroon... being a team sport.. i SHOULD expect EVERY player to SUPPORT EACH OTHER.. whether they are a starter or a 3 string DB.

Canadianfishfan
11-24-2006, 11:36 AM
:sidelol: With the "backup" we are winning with the "starter" we were losing.

Stop hating:shakeno:

Just like Dallas...:dolphins:

PhinGeneral
11-24-2006, 11:42 AM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I didn't even have to read the rest of this. The banality of your opening sentence just basically negated the rest of your post.

First of all, how do you know his injury is going to be permanent? Do you know something the coaching staff wasn't aware of? Do you realize that with the extent of Culpepper's injury it's more likely than not that he came back far too soon?

Secondly, the guy is what, 30 years old? Is that really the downside of his career? Many QB's dont necessarily start hitting their stride until they hit 30.

Canadianfishfan
11-24-2006, 11:44 AM
I didn't even have to read the rest of this. The banality of your opening sentence just basically negated the rest of your post.

First of all, how do you know his injury is going to be permanent? Do you know something the coaching staff wasn't aware of? Do you realize that with the extent of Culpepper's injury it's more likely than not that he came back far too soon?

Secondly, the guy is what, 30 years old? Is that really the downside of his career? Many QB's dont necessarily start hitting their stride until they hit 30.

Good points...

Prophet
11-24-2006, 11:54 AM
I was happy to see Joey Harrington win at his old stomping grounds....but they did just beat the Lions...not exactly a major obstacle.

I've watched Culpepper play in all of his NFL games...the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. If you take off your biases and read the following synopsis of events that occurred when he left MN it will show the true character of Daunte:



The Daunte Saga
Childress said Daunte Culpepper was going to be the team's starter and that Brad Johnson was going to be the backup. After becoming coach Childress said , "Daunte right now is the franchise quarterback, he's the guy, and we'll just leave it at that. We hope he gets well, and rehabs. …I've always believed a guy doesn't lose his position if he gets hurt," Childress said. "But Brad Johnson is a talented guy, and he won a lot of football games for you guys this year, and I'm familiar with him, and he knows this system." Culpepper did not return phone calls seeking comment. Johnson could not be reached for comment.

On January 9, 2006, Sid Hartman of the Star Tribune Sid Hartman, of the Star Tribune, reports Minnesota Vikings injured QB Daunte Culpepper has agreed to fly to the Twin Cities from Orlando this week to spend some time visiting with new head coach Brad Childress. "I spoke to Daunte Saturday morning. I had a nice conversation with him," Childress said. "I will have a chance to sit down face-to-face with him here later in the week." Childress wants to tell Culpepper how valuable he is to the team. Apparently, Culpepper is making good progress after undergoing surgery to repair his knee. The meeting never happened.

The calm before the storm ended on February 16, 2006. The article entitled, Daunte’s Inferno (http://www.purplepride.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=263&Itemid=120) summarizes what was going on while the Vikings faithful were patiently waiting for the outcome of Daunte’s disappearance and trade rumors. In the height of the controversy Mr. Culpepper sent an e-mail to the Associated Press that read as follows: "I have found over the years that people with knowledge of the situation are usually the most ignorant, and anonymous sources are usually synonymous with cowards who don't want to go on the record," Culpepper said in an e-mail to The Associated Press. "My position has been and continues to be that I am focusing on rehabilitating my knee so that I can come back and play the game I love at the highest level." "Until I hear different from Mr. Wilf or the new 'triangle of authority' at the Vikings, I plan on playing quarterback for Minnesota. Trying to delve into speculation, innuendo, rumor or anything else of this nature would be a waste of energy. I choose at this time to spend my energy on getting healthy. Thank you for relaying this message to the public."

On March 8, 2006 my interest and support for Daunte vanished. I loved watching Daunte play and was a supporter of him for years. When times get tough the true character of a man comes out. We saw his true character, and I did not like it. The infamous Trade me, or Terminate my Contract article appeared where Daunte stated, “…However, because of the fundamental differences I have with management regarding the approach to my personal and professional life, I think it is the best business decision for both parties to go our separate ways." Sean Jensen of the Pioneer Press reported on March 8, 2006, that Minnesota Vikings QB Daunte Culpepper has said he would like the team to release him if the Vikings are not able to trade him. "Now that I have confirmed that the Vikings have been seeking to trade me, I have asked for permission to speak to the interested teams. The Vikings have denied my request," Culpepper said in an e-mail to the paper. "If a trade does not happen, then I am asking the Vikings to terminate my contract as soon as possible. ... Because of the fundamental differences I have with management regarding the approach to my personal and professional life, I think it is the best business decision for both parties to go our separate ways," Culpepper said. Again, done by e-mail while he still had not met with the new HC and stayed in Florida to rehab. on his own.

On March 16, 2006, Sean Jensen of the Pioneer Press, reported Miami Dolphins QB Daunte Culpepper and Minnesota Vikings owner Zygi Wilf blamed each other for the way Culpepper's career in Minnesota came to an end. Culpepper said, "Up until March 6, I felt I was going to be a Minnesota Viking. It really wasn't about money. It was about the principle of the whole thing. The way I see myself is way more important than any dollar amount that someone can throw at me." Wilf claims, "We tried everything to have him be our leader. But it seemed like a lot of things that happened last year, between the injury and the (Love Boat) incident, he felt it was time to move on. His attitude has been building up since we asked him to work out up here. He decided, against everyone's suggestion; that he was going to do things independently on his own." Also, on March 16, 2006, in an article in USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/dolphins/2006-03-16-culpepper_x.htm?csp=34), "We thought we could find a way in which we could get Daunte to work with us and to get into the plan that we were trying to put together for our future. With everything he had gone through this past year, the injury and the incidents and everything else, getting rid of his agent, it just seemed to me that in his mind he wanted to make a change in his life and in his career. ... We tried everything we could do to accommodate, but it didn't seem like he was interested in staying a Viking."

On March 17, 2006, Harvey Fialkov of the Sun-Sentinel reported that Brad Childress said Daunte Culpepper was seeking more money, and lots of it. “Somewhere there is a buy-in factor. I just didn't think that was the case," Childress said. "Right from the beginning. As I mentioned, I never had a conversation with him about this football team. It was always about what he needed financially and money. I never heard team, I always heard me and I and, 'I need $10 million. I'm a $10 million-dollar-a-year quarterback.'" "It just became a deal where I didn't feel like it was the team, I felt like it was 'me,'" Childress said on March 21, 2006, about Culpepper. "I went through a big 'me' situation last year with a guy who was all about 'me.'"

Childress handled the situation professionally based on his actual comments and not on the media's twist of his comments. It was a touchy situation and Childress knew it was. The Vikings organization had to say something from their angle or the media would run with it and destroy credibility of the Vikings organization. Childress was forced to address the issue because Culpepper was whining like a newborn to the press.

What happened? 1. Management's feelings were hurt, 2. Daunte's feelings were hurt, 3. No reconciliation took place, 4. Daunte was traded.

Some of the Daunte faithful surmised the Vikings got a raw deal in the trade with the Dolphins. Reality is that Daunte wanted out and the Vikings received the fair market value for him while racing against a $6M deadline of March 24, 2006. The perception of what he was worth and the reality of what he was worth were two different things.



Personally, it appears Joey is the better choice at QB in the short-term. I would be grabbing a new prospect as soon as possible though, neith Daunte nor Joey are QBs you want to build your franchise on.

Joe Flipper
11-24-2006, 11:59 AM
:jt0323:

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 02:24 PM
I was happy to see Joey Harrington win at his old stomping grounds....but they did just beat the Lions...not exactly a major obstacle.

I've watched Culpepper play in all of his NFL games...the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. If you take off your biases and read the following synopsis of events that occurred when he left MN it will show the true character of Daunte:



Personally, it appears Joey is the better choice at QB in the short-term. I would be grabbing a new prospect as soon as possible though, neith Daunte nor Joey are QBs you want to build your franchise on.

How is Brad Johnson working out for the Vikings this year? I guarantee there are people who would like to have Daunte back. You may be right that neither of them are the franchise QB, but with his contract, the pick we gave up, and his abilities as a passer, I just don't see us sitting him on the bench or bringing in an inexperienced project to start over him.

tcdrover
11-24-2006, 02:32 PM
I agree. Daunte hasnt done anything in the past 2 seasons to just get handed the starting job.

While I think Joey has made great leaps this year, he still has some way to go. But let it also be known that Joey is the first QB down here since Marino that is having success with a very inconsistant running game.

That's a good point. I don't think he has either. They should have an open QB competition next year and let the chips fall where they may...

Have you seen the difference that Romo has made to the Cowboys?

Drew is kind of like Daunte. Good strong arm, but slow to make decisions and let it go. Even if Culpepper were 100% I don't think he would win the starting job as easily as a lot of Daunte lovers around here think...

kud
11-24-2006, 03:03 PM
Only because your in bizarro world. Backup QB finally has a good game and the QB whose actually done something in his career gets dismissed. Of course those saying that now will completely hide on the topic next year when they see Culpepper starting, or change their forum names or just disappear completely. Comes around all the time.

I'm in bizarro world because i'm of the opinion that Bionic knee is a dead stick? He's nothing without his legs. And I have a lot of doubt he'll ever be 100%. And despite his great statistics a few years ago, he's never been anything close to a clutch player. He's been pretty good at folding under pressure throughout his career. Even with Daunte at 100% we could very well continue to become what the Dolphins have come to be known for for a long time. Good but not good enough.

Bizarro world? Reluctant to acknowledge that Daunte could ever return to form. Relying on your desire for Culpepper to suddenly become 'that' player again? That sounds like bizarro world to me.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 03:17 PM
I'm in bizarro world because i'm of the opinion that Bionic knee is a dead stick? He's nothing without his legs. And I have a lot of doubt he'll ever be 100%. And despite his great statistics a few years ago, he's never been anything close to a clutch player. He's been pretty good at folding under pressure throughout his career. Even with Daunte at 100% we could very well continue to become what the Dolphins have come to be known for for a long time. Good but not good enough.

Bizarro world? Reluctant to acknowledge that Daunte could ever return to form. Relying on your desire for Culpepper to suddenly become 'that' player again? That sounds like bizarro world to me.

If we are going to sit here and accuse Daunte of never doing anything or being bad under pressure, you have to say the exact same thing about Joey. He has done far less in his career and has played just as bad if not worse 'under pressure'. I don't know what you guys think pressure is. But I think every game in the NFL has its fair share of pressure. So once we establish that allegedly neither of our QBs have accomplished anything and can't play well under pressure, I guess we need to reevaluate the position for next. Since neither of them can play, I guess we need to sign a free agent or draft someone who can play under 'pressure'.

muscle979
11-24-2006, 03:19 PM
If we are going to sit here and accuse Daunte of never doing anything or being bad under pressure, you have to say the exact same thing about Joey. He has done far less in his career and has played just as bad if not worse 'under pressure'. I don't know what you guys think pressure is. But I think every game in the NFL has its fair share of pressure. So once we establish that allegedly neither of our QBs have accomplished anything and can't play well under pressure, I guess we need to reevaluate the position for next. Since neither of them can play, I guess we need to sign a free agent or draft someone who can play under 'pressure'.

In the NFL it's all about what have you done for me lately. Right now Joey clearly has the edge. Don't worry though, Daunte will probably be named the starter going into next year's camp barring a miracle playoff run this season. If for no other reason than the price that was paid for him. I'm not sure after yesterday's game how you can say Joey doesn't play well under pressure. That would seem like a ton of pressure to me.

ZolarZ_GoPhins
11-24-2006, 03:29 PM
The Miami Dolphins Offfense as a unit all year long has played at best average. JH has been along for the ride on the current 4 game win streak. He has played well at times and done some stupid stuff as well. Miami can't run the ball consistantly and recievers continue to drop passes. There is nothing "stellar" about this offense.

That said the decision to play C-Pep hurt our season and you could see from game 1 that he was having problems. I have no idea if or when he will play again but as of right now he can't play so we have to live with JH at QB and hope we can improve Offensively.

Our Defense is winning games for us. Quit putting a W beside any QB's name on our roster. Athough you can leave any L's there most likely. Neither have played well enough for us to win games and both have thrown games away for us.

Can you imagine how really good our D could be if the Offense would get it together and score some points early, and maybe put together some good drives.

Last I will leave you with this statement.

"I think we would have been a better team this year had Gus Frerotte been the starter at QB"
















*If you agree with that satement or even thought about it: Then you now know how inept our QB position has been this year*

muscle979
11-24-2006, 03:33 PM
The Miami Dolphins Offfense as a unit all year long has played at best average. JH has been along for the ride on the current 4 game win streak. He has played well at times and done some stupid stuff as well. Miami can't run the ball consistantly and recievers continue to drop passes. There is nothing "stellar" about this offense.

That said the decision to play C-Pep hurt our season and you could see from game 1 that he was having problems. I have no idea if or when he will play again but as of right now he can't play so we have to live with JH at QB and hope we can improve Offensively.

Our Defense is winning games for us. Quit putting a W beside any QB's name on our roster. Athough you can leave any L's there most likely. Neither have played well enough for us to win games and both have thrown games away for us.

Can you imagine how really good our D could be if the Offense would get it together and score some points early, and maybe put together some good drives.

Last I will leave you with this statement.

"I think we would have been a better team this year had Gus Frerotte been the starter at QB"
















*If you agree with that satement or even thought about it: Then you now know how inept our QB position has been this year*

You're right about the first 3 but Joey won the Detroit game. He made some very good throws and made them pay whenever they dared to blitz him. The D was very good as usual but Joey was a much bigger part of the last win than he had been in any of the wins before.

Roman529
11-24-2006, 03:35 PM
I think the title of this thread is kind of strange.....why would you be "ashamed" that some people might think DC will be our future??,,,I could understand you being "amused" or "puzzled" but ashamed is not the word that comes to mind?? :confused:

I could care less who our future QB is, as long as he helps us win. If Pee Wee Herman can get us to the Superbowl so be it. People here seem to be too caught up in WHO are QB is, rather than focusing on winning games.

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 03:38 PM
You're right about the first 3 but Joey won the Detroit game. He made some very good throws and made them pay whenever they dared to blitz him. The D was very good as usual but Joey was a much bigger part of the last win than he had been in any of the wins before.

I don't disagree with the fact that Joey was a big part in the win, but more than Joey won the Detroit game. Booker had a good hand in it as well. The line did some good blocking and the running game helped seal the deal. The defense did sack detroit 8 times and forced a turnover.

Not to take away from Joey, however that was a total team win. Which, IMO, is a very good thing. Hopefully everything will continue to click. I hope Daunte does not come back this year because that would mean that Miami hasn't lost a game and Joey is playing well and is not hurt.

muscle979
11-24-2006, 03:38 PM
I think the title of this thread is kind of strange.....why would you be "ashamed" that some people might think DC will be our future??,,,I could understand you being "amused" or "puzzled" but ashamed is not the word that comes to mind?? :confused:

I could care less who our future QB is, as long as he helps us win. If Pee Wee Herman can get us to the Superbowl so be it. People here seem to be too caught up in WHO are QB is, rather than focusing on winning games.

Well put.

Agent51
11-24-2006, 03:38 PM
With a guy with an injured knee that is likely going to be permanent and probably in the downside of his career, do you actually think he is our future?

I mean Joey has been stellar with us and I"m not saying he is our future but in the nfl this is the message that is always sent around. Keep your job or someone is going to take it. If recent memory is correct, Saban is pleased with Joey Harrington and his mobility. He is also pleased with his quick decisions. I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us. Sadly, todays game wasn't won by our defense but by the decisions that Joey made out there as a leader and that was something that saban was overpraising him for.

We don't have a horrid losing franchise here, we need somebody back there that is intelligent and that has the heart to be a leader and Daunte doesn't fit neither of those. It kinda makes me wonder about those boat party allegations about him. I see Joey being underachieved yet he's a smart guy who keeps himself low and enjoys activities out there then I see Daunte out there, yet he worked hard to try to get himself in one piece but I don't see him as big as a leader as Joey even though Joey isn't physically as gifted as Daunte is.

In reality I rather opt out for a younger Harrington but that is just me. This isn't Daunte's team and THAT'S FINAL. At this moment this is Joey's team. He's put some wins out there against teams with a winning record(chiefs, bears) and will likely rack up a win against the Jaguars if He's able to play at a high level.

Sorry Daunte Fans...

I've been saying Daunte isn't our future since before we got him. For the millionth time, he was having the worst season of his career BEFORE the injury in Minn, then he gets a serious KNEE injury, which is killer for a MOBILE QB. Plus I'm tired of taking other teams "trash" and trying to make it our "treasure". I'm just glad we snagged Joey too. I still want to draft a QB (Quinn looks unlikely now that we decided to actually PLAY football this season :D), but I think Joey is a MUCH better guy to be the QB while we wait for a young guy to develope. I'm just going to be pissed when we start Daunte again next year and the same crap happens then we throw Joey back in and it takes him a few games to get his rhythm down again before we start winning, then it will be too late, just like the case appears to be this year.

Prakk
11-24-2006, 03:39 PM
The biggest tragedies will be that we gave Daunte the royal treatment and even if he is someone's future, when he heals up, we aren't going to get anything for him. Again, we give a second rounder for someone who doesn't do a thing for us.

We gave Joey a look see deal and he may be number one on the depth chart come next year. That will make him tough to hang on to. Hind sight is 20-20, but it looks like we should have passed on Daunte and inked Joey to a long term deal. It may look more like that by year end.

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 03:41 PM
The biggest tragedies will be that we gave Daunte the royal treatment and even if he is someone's future, when he heals up, we aren't going to get anything for him. Again, we give a second rounder for someone who doesn't do a thing for us.

We gave Joey a look see deal and he may be number one on the depth chart come next year. That will make him tough to hang on to. Hind sight is 20-20, but it looks like we should have passed on Daunte and inked Joey to a long term deal. It may look more like that by year end.

let Joey play more than one good game against a team that does not have one of the worst passing defenses of all time.

kud
11-24-2006, 03:51 PM
If we are going to sit here and accuse Daunte of never doing anything or being bad under pressure, you have to say the exact same thing about Joey. He has done far less in his career and has played just as bad if not worse 'under pressure'. I don't know what you guys think pressure is. But I think every game in the NFL has its fair share of pressure. So once we establish that allegedly neither of our QBs have accomplished anything and can't play well under pressure, I guess we need to reevaluate the position for next. Since neither of them can play, I guess we need to sign a free agent or draft someone who can play under 'pressure'.


That extra pressure is the playoff race, and or in the playoffs, that to my knowledge Daunte has succumb to that pressure. And don't kid yourself as to think Harrington even had the chance to shine in Detroit as Culpepper did in Minnesota.

But that's irrelevant, cause I don't know if Harrington is the long-term answer, the only relevance Harrington has to this discussion is that he's playing better than Daunte this year and I support him for that, and expect him to be back next year, hopefully as a starter, because I doubt there will be anybody out there to upgrade over him, and should we draft a QB I dont' think we'll be starting a rookie.

Bottomline here is, and with this thread is that Daunte gets a lot of love from a lot of people around here and none of it is deserving. As of this moment, until proven otherwise we've wasted a 2nd round pick. People are happy about that because we got a big name. Bizarro world?

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 03:54 PM
That extra pressure is the playoff race, and or in the playoffs, that to my knowledge Daunte has succumb to that pressure. And don't kid yourself and to think Harrington even had the chance to shine in Detroit as Culpepper did in Minnesota.

But that's irrelevant, cause I don't know if Harrington is the long-term answer, the only relevance Harrington has to this discussion is that he's playing better than Daunte this year and I support him for that, and expect him to be back next year, hopefully as a starter, because I doubt there will be anybody out there to upgrade over him, and should we draft a QB I dont' think we'll be starting a rookie.

Bottomline here is, and with this thread is that Daunte gets a lot of love from a lot of people around here and none of it is deserving.

Bottom line is that is very not true. Well I guess it is true if you just attribute every good thing Daunte has done in his career to luck.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 04:01 PM
He's been pretty good at folding under pressure throughout his career. Even with Daunte at 100% we could very well continue to become what the Dolphins have come to be known for for a long time. Good but not good enough.
Well in a real world ALL QBS FOLD UNDER PRESSURE...

Just few points and facts to my post...

Tom Brady...

2001- Lost 25-38 against Denver... 2 TD... 4 INT
2002- Lost 13-26 against Mimai..... 2 TD... 2 INT
2003- Lost 0-31 against Buffalo..... 0 TD... 4 INT
2004- Lost 28-29 against Miami..... 3 TD... 4 INT
2005- Lost 16-26 against KC......... 1 TD... 4 INT
................................................8 TD... 18 INT

Peyton Manning...

2001- Lost 13-44 against NE........ 1 TD... 3 INT
2001- Lost 21-40 against SF........ 1 TD... 4 INT
2001- Lost 6-41 against Miami...... 0 TD... 3 INT
2002- Lost 13-21 against Miami.... 1 TD... 3 INT
2002- Lost 17-27 against Tenn..... 1 TD... 3 INT
.............................................. 4 TD... 16 INT

Just a few points to show that any QB under pressure has the highest probability to loose the game... even these future HOF...

kud
11-24-2006, 04:06 PM
Bottom line is that is very not true. Well I guess it is true if you just attribute every good thing Daunte has done in his career to luck.

Like what, put up pretty stats? He's won two playoff games in his career in
00' and 04'. The only two times his teams have ever even made the playoffs.

After the 00' season in 01' he managed a 5-11 record. In 04' the Vikings got into the playoffs with an 8-8 record. That's just not gonna happen in the AFC.

This is a healthy Culpepper in his prime, with an OK track record. Nothing spectacular, other than a few seasons of inflated stats. I don't want a guy who can put up stats, other than the only important stat. W's.

What we have is a shell of that guy.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 04:09 PM
Like what, put up pretty stats? He's won two playoff games in his career in
00' and 04'. The only two times his teams have ever even made the playoffs.

After the 00' season in 01' he managed a 5-11 record. In 04' the Vikings got into the playoffs with an 8-8 record. That's just not gonna happen in the AFC.

This is a healthy Culpepper in his prime, with an OK track record. Nothing spectacular, other than a few seasons of inflated stats. I don't want a guy who can put up stats, other than the only important stat. W's.

What we have is a shell of that guy.It is a "team" who puts up wins...not an individual... you are incorrect in blaming losses to one players or one coach...

A team wins Championships, not the QB...WR...DE...or RB....

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 04:11 PM
Like what, put up pretty stats? He's won two playoff games in his career in
00' and 04'. The only two times his teams have ever even made the playoffs.

After the 00' season in 01' he managed a 5-11 record. In 04' the Vikings got into the playoffs with an 8-8 record. That's just not gonna happen in the AFC.

This is a healthy Culpepper in his prime, with an OK track record. Nothing spectacular, other than a few seasons of inflated stats. I don't want a guy who can put up stats, other than the only important stat. W's.

What we have is a shell of that guy.

You are under the delusion that one guy is the reason for wins and losses. It is laughable to believe that Daunte is the sole reason Minnasota went 5-11 or 8-8.

What you are basically saying that is Daunte Culpepper is only capable of putting up pretty stats (which are touchdowns, yards and completion percentage. Something that I guess is not important in the game of football) and that if you put him on a complete team with a good offense and a solid defense that all he would be capable of is an 8-8 record.

Basically you are telling me that an accurate quarterback who can make plays will actually hurt Miami if they build a solid TEAM around him. Not only good offensive players but something Daunte NEVER played with, which is a good defense.

I guess that makes sense in some topsy turvy crazy world where the quarterbacks are the only player on the team.

kud
11-24-2006, 04:12 PM
Well in a real world ALL QBS FOLD UNDER PRESSURE...

Just few points and facts to my post...

Tom Brady...

2001- Lost 25-38 against Denver... 2 TD... 4 INT
2002- Lost 13-26 against Mimai..... 2 TD... 2 INT
2003- Lost 0-31 against Buffalo..... 0 TD... 4 INT
2004- Lost 28-29 against Miami..... 3 TD... 4 INT
2005- Lost 16-26 against KC......... 1 TD... 4 INT
................................................8 TD... 18 INT

Peyton Manning...

2001- Lost 13-44 against NE........ 1 TD... 3 INT
2001- Lost 21-40 against SF........ 1 TD... 4 INT
2001- Lost 6-41 against Miami...... 0 TD... 3 INT
2002- Lost 13-21 against Miami.... 1 TD... 3 INT
2002- Lost 17-27 against Tenn..... 1 TD... 3 INT
.............................................. 4 TD... 16 INT

Just a few points to show that any QB under pressure has the highest probability to loose the game... even these future HOF...

I made it clear that by pressure I mean, in playoff races, or in the playoffs. Find Brady's stats in the playoffs then get back to me.

As for Peyton, well much like Daunte he hasn't proven he can win when it really matters. He's a great regular season QB, but until he proves he can win when it matters he's not a clutch performer.

Diffence is, Peyton almost always leads his team at least to the playoffs.

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 04:14 PM
I made it clear that by pressure I mean, in playoff races, or in the playoffs. Find Brady's stats in the playoffs then get back to me.
As for Peyton, well much like Daunte he hasn't proven he can win when it really matters. He's a great regular season QB, but until he proves he can win when it matters he's not a clutch performer.

Last playoff game I remember Brady playing in, he threw one of the worst passes to practically lose the game I have ever seen a quarterback do.

kud
11-24-2006, 04:23 PM
You are under the delusion that one guy is the reason for wins and losses. It is laughable to believe that Daunte is the sole reason Minnasota went 5-11 or 8-8.

What you are basically saying that is Daunte Culpepper is only capable of putting up pretty stats (which are touchdowns, yards and completion percentage. Something that I guess is not important in the game of football) and that if you put him on a complete team with a good offense and a solid defense that all he would be capable of is an 8-8 record.

Basically you are telling me that an accurate quarterback who can make plays will actually hurt Miami if they build a solid TEAM around him. Not only good offensive players but something Daunte NEVER played with, which is a good defense.

I guess that makes sense in some topsy turvy crazy world where the quarterbacks are the only player on the team.

I'm under the delusion? When did I ever say Daunte was the sole reason? Nobody is ever the sole reason in football for anything. But everybody is part of the blame. If Culpepper really was as great as people think he was, he would have lead his team to the playoffs more often. While the Vikings never had a great defense, they had an explosive offense. That should be enough to make the playoffs most years especially in the NFC, just look at Manning's Colts.

Like i've said he's had great stats a couple years in half of his years in the league. The other half his stats have been atrocious.

I'm looking at his playoff success, and he hasn't had very much.

Again I must emphasize this is a healthy QB in his prime we're talking about! Not the QB we currently have on our roster.


Last playoff game I remember Brady playing in, he threw one of the worst passes to practically lose the game I have ever seen a quarterback do.

:sidelol:

Brady has won 3 rings in 5 years, because of his greatness in pressure situations. One bad game doesn't make or break a guy. Please get real. You guys will just throw anything out there to attempt to back your new favorite player huh?

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 04:32 PM
I'm under the delusion? When did I ever say Daunte was the sole reason? Nobody is ever the sole reason in football for anything. But everybody is part of the blame. If Culpepper really was as great as people think he was, he would have lead his team to the playoffs more often. While the Vikings never had a great defense, they had an explosive offense. That should be enough to make the playoffs most years especially in the NFC, just look at Manning's Colts.

Like i've said he's had great stats a couple years in half of his years in the league. The other half his stats have been atrocious.

I'm looking at his playoff success, and he hasn't had very much.

Again I must emphasize this is a healthy QB in his prime we're talking about! Not the QB we currently have on our roster.



:sidelol:

Brady has won 3 rings in 5 years, because of his greatness in pressure situations. One bad game doesn't make or break a guy. Please get real. You guys will just throw anything out there to attempt to back your new favorite player huh?

Could you contridict yourself any more in one post than you just did?

kud
11-24-2006, 04:36 PM
Could you contridict yourself any more in one post than you just did?

How so? :confused: Are you trying to tell me Daunte didn't have enough talent around him to not make the playoffs more often?

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 04:38 PM
How so? :confused:

you first say you can't look at indivisual's for team success and then you use example of indivisuals.

kud
11-24-2006, 04:47 PM
you first say you can't look at indivisual's for team success and then you use example of indivisuals.

I edited my post for you. The Vikings had two all-time greats in Randy Moss and Cris Carter to throw to. A very good O-line. And a solid RB corpse for awhile. Was that not enough to get the job done?

Somehow is 00' and 01' he did have enough, but not in 02', 03'. Surely the Vikings didn't have any sort of drastic personnel changes to excuse the lack of success.

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 04:49 PM
I edited my post for you. The Vikings had two all-time greats in Randy Moss and Cris Carter to throw to. A very good O-line. And a solid RB corpse for awhile. Was that not enough to get the job done?

No it wasn't. They were missing defense.

Plus their coach was Mike Tice.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 04:51 PM
I made it clear that by pressure I mean, in playoff races, or in the playoffs. Find Brady's stats in the playoffs then get back to me.

As for Peyton, well much like Daunte he hasn't proven he can win when it really matters. He's a great regular season QB, but until he proves he can win when it matters he's not a clutch performer.
Maybe he has not made it to the post seaason enough to show what he can do...

Brady has had a team around him in his Superbowl years, no doubt about it, he has played great with them... but....

Here is an old post of mine...


"Another interesting Daunte stats is that he has lost 11 (24%) out of 45 games when his team has the lead or tied at the end of the 3rd quarter...

The Pats with Brady have lost 1 (1%) out of 67 games with the same situtation. Their only lost came against Miami in 2004..."


and this extra tidbit... Brady and the Pats also have won all the Post Season games when they were at least tied or ahead at the start of the 4th quarter... and they lost to Denver when they were behind...even the all powerful Brady could not get them their win...

bottom line Ws are why they play but you need a team to win championships, Brady has had them, Daunte has only had Moss...

kud
11-24-2006, 04:56 PM
No it wasn't. They were missing defense.

Plus their coach was Mike Tice.

Colts didn't have a defense to speak of for a long while. They'll have missed the playoffs once in what will be eight years after this year.

kud
11-24-2006, 05:03 PM
Maybe he has not made it to the post seaason enough to show what he can do...

He's not consistant enough year-to-year in the regular season to even have the opportunity to be successful in the playoffs.

Y'know, Daunte reminds me so much of Kurt Warner. Only with mobility. Let your top O-line block for you while you chuck the ball up to your superstar WRs, and make you look good. Kurt Warner was never really a great QB. He just had the weapons around him to make him look good. A product of a system. Warner has been to pro bowls and was even league MVP.
He had a hand injury was succeeded by Bulger and has sucked ever since. Remind you of anybody?


and this extra tidbit... Brady and the Pats also have won all the Post Season games when they were at least tied or ahead at the start of the 4th quarter... and they lost to Denver when they were behind...even the all powerful Brady could not get them their win...

bottom line Ws are why they play but you need a team to win championships, Brady has had them, Daunte has only had Moss...

A select few bad performances doesn't negate everything Brady has accomplished in past playoff performances, and superbowls.

Daunte has only had Moss? You ever heard of a guy named Cris Carter? How about the Vikings having one of the top O-lines in the league for several years.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 05:41 PM
If Culpepper really was as great as people think he was, he would have lead his team to the playoffs more often. While the Vikings never had a great defense, they had an explosive offense. That should be enough to make the playoffs most years especially in the NFC, just look at Manning's Colts.
Carter was only in Dauntes 1st year which they made the Post Season...

Lets look a Peyton since his start...

98- Offense Point Scored 310, Defense Points Allowed 443...record 3-13...
99- PS 423, PA 333...record 13-3...
00- PS 429, PA 326...record 10-6...
01- PS 413, PA 486...record 6-10...
02- PS 349, PA 313...record 10-6...
03- PS 447, PA 336...record 12-4...
04- PS 522, PA 351...record 12-4...
05- PS 439, PA 247...record 14-2...

Do you see the large variance between PS and PA in all of their winning seasons (99-00, 03-05). They would show up as an avg of +8 PPG...
...and if you break down further, that margin of victory is an avg of +3.88 PPG from 1998-2005 regular season games...

Now Daunte and Vikes...

00- PS 397, PA 371...record 11-5...
01- PS 290, PA 390...record 5-11...
02- PS 390, PA 442...record 6-10...
03- PS 416, PA 353...record 9-7...
04- PS 405, PA 395...record 8-8...

Again, the variance between PS and PA for their winning season was an avg of +2.75 PPG, much smaller margin of victory than Indi...
...and if you break it down further, the margin of victory is an avg of -0.66 (negative) PPG from 2000-2004 regular season games...

Hope this brings some light to the matter...

Dolfan984
11-24-2006, 05:45 PM
Carter was only in Dauntes 1st year which they made the Post Season...

Lets look a Peyton since his start...

98- Offense Point Scored 310, Defense Points Allowed 443...record 3-13...
99- PS 423, PA 333...record 13-3...
00- PS 429, PA 326...record 10-6...
01- PS 413, PA 486...record 6-10...
02- PS 349, PA 313...record 10-6...
03- PS 447, PA 336...record 12-4...
04- PS 522, PA 351...record 12-4...
05- PS 439, PA 247...record 14-2...

Do you see the large variance between PS and PA in all of their winning seasons (99-00, 03-05). They would show up as an avg of +8 PPG...
...and if you break down further, that margin of victory is an avg of +3.88 PPG from 1998-2005 regular season games...

Now Daunte and Vikes...

00- PS 397, PA 371...record 11-5...
01- PS 290, PA 390...record 5-11...
02- PS 390, PA 442...record 6-10...
03- PS 416, PA 353...record 9-7...
04- PS 405, PA 395...record 8-8...

Again, the variance between PS and PA for their winning season was an avg of +2.75 PPG, much smaller margin of victory than Indi...
...and if you break it down further, the margin of victory is an avg of -0.66 PPG from 2000-2004 regular season games...

Hope this brings some light to the matter...

Wow great freakin post.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 05:55 PM
He had a hand injury was succeeded by Bulger and has sucked ever since. Remind you of anybody?
If you are thinking of Daunte, you got to give him a few years or at least as many a Warner has had since he left the Rams... what like 4 years? Warner, when was he ever a starting QB? Daunte has broken college records and was drafted in the 1st round...did not know that Warner was even drafted?


A select few bad performances doesn't negate everything Brady has accomplished in past playoff performances, and superbowls.
I did not select a few bad performances to say anything bad about Brady. I said that "ALL QBS have bad performaces when they are pressure, and stated a fact that Brady when behind at the end of the 3rd quarter/start of the 4th, has not rallied his team a win. The Pats have been great because of that...


Daunte has only had Moss? You ever heard of a guy named Cris Carter? How about the Vikings having one of the top O-lines in the league for several years. Carter for one year with Moss in 2000, and they went to the Post season...
They had a very good OL, but with a Defense giving up over 24 PPG on avg...

spydertl79
11-24-2006, 06:03 PM
Daunte is one of the best when he's on top of his game. Harrington probably fits in better with our team though.

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 06:50 PM
You are under the delusion that one guy is the reason for wins and losses.



Last playoff game I remember Brady playing in, he threw one of the worst passes to practically lose the game I have ever seen a quarterback do.


Could you contridict yourself any more in one post than you just did?

:confused:

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 06:55 PM
Personally I think if Harrington continues to improve we won't have to worry about this QB controversy. I do think it is a bit ridiculous to be running around saying Daunte is the future though after seeing what he did these first 4 games here and add to it the fact he still has not healed and there is no guarantee he will. It doesn't bother me either way though if Daunte doesn't get back to form Joey has proven he can definitely handle the job and Saban has said he will always keep the best man on the field so it's a win-win situation.

Finole
11-24-2006, 07:01 PM
I don't think Daunte will end up starting for this Miami Team unless he really puts up some wins for us...

Huh?

How's he going to put up wins if he doesn't start?

But no doubt Harrington is playing well. Still threw an INT yesterday. Wish he could eliminate or minimize that aspect of his game. But otherwise, he looked really good.

Bumrush
11-24-2006, 07:21 PM
WHY ARE WE CREATING CONTROVERSY WHEN THERE IS NONE??
Listen I have been an avid supporter of what Joey has done so far because we have won games and have turned the season around.
Lets stop these foolish posts, CPEP is NOT coming back this year. If the Dolphins win out and make the playoffs lets start the debate when the season ends, for all we know we could lose 5 in a row and make all this bickering a moot point.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 07:28 PM
Im ashamed that some people need to make threads like this just to start fights and voice an opinion we have heard 3000000 times and could easily be posted in another of the 30 available Joey or Daunte threads

Brad528
11-24-2006, 07:45 PM
Not difficult to be a prow bowler when you throw to moss. If you dont throw to him the chances are also good that someone on your team will catch the ball cause all other defenders are on moss...

REally DID any of you here all up on Culpeppers nuts ever see him play in college or in minisota? Hes a good QB who ended up in a GREAT situation. AJ Feely could have been a pro Bowler in that team when they had carter and moss...

Seriously watch any game that moss wasnt playing in. More often then not it ended in a "L"
Yeah Brooks is really lighting it up in Oakland.

finintheburgh
11-24-2006, 07:51 PM
I edited my post for you. The Vikings had two all-time greats in Randy Moss and Cris Carter to throw to. A very good O-line. And a solid RB corpse for awhile. Was that not enough to get the job done?

Somehow is 00' and 01' he did have enough, but not in 02', 03'. Surely the Vikings didn't have any sort of drastic personnel changes to excuse the lack of success.


hey kud having fun yet?
dc was very much a product of the viking system. it made some terrible qbs look great. the reason was it was very simple. you only looked at half the field. you didnt have to worry about the whole defense. it makes it easy when you only try to read half the field.
DC can become good again but it will take a very simple offense like the one that he ran in minny, if he doesnt get into an offense like that then he will fail. i know were supposed to be running a similar offense but it is still more complacated than what hes use to.

kud
11-24-2006, 08:01 PM
Carter was only in Dauntes 1st year which they made the Post Season...

Lets look a Peyton since his start...

98- Offense Point Scored 310, Defense Points Allowed 443...record 3-13...
99- PS 423, PA 333...record 13-3...
00- PS 429, PA 326...record 10-6...
01- PS 413, PA 486...record 6-10...
02- PS 349, PA 313...record 10-6...
03- PS 447, PA 336...record 12-4...
04- PS 522, PA 351...record 12-4...
05- PS 439, PA 247...record 14-2...

Do you see the large variance between PS and PA in all of their winning seasons (99-00, 03-05). They would show up as an avg of +8 PPG...
...and if you break down further, that margin of victory is an avg of +3.88 PPG from 1998-2005 regular season games...

Now Daunte and Vikes...

00- PS 397, PA 371...record 11-5...
01- PS 290, PA 390...record 5-11...
02- PS 390, PA 442...record 6-10...
03- PS 416, PA 353...record 9-7...
04- PS 405, PA 395...record 8-8...

Again, the variance between PS and PA for their winning season was an avg of +2.75 PPG, much smaller margin of victory than Indi...
...and if you break it down further, the margin of victory is an avg of -0.66 (negative) PPG from 2000-2004 regular season games...

Hope this brings some light to the matter...

It brings no light to the matter. What it looks like from 00' to 04' that their defenses, are relatively even. Though Minnesota may have given up a 100 or so more points in that time span which is about 25 more points per season(1.6 pts per game more), not very many by any means. The difference is that Indy's offense scored way more points in that time span. About 75 more pts per season(4.7 pts per game , more). That's the real difference.

So the Vikings may have allowed more points, but the Colts scored WAY more in that time span.

Metal Panda
11-24-2006, 08:05 PM
I just ate out Captain EO wwuauauaan wuauaauaua WUAAAUUAUAUAUAUAUAUANG!

dolfn66
11-24-2006, 08:05 PM
I don't want to hate on Duante but I just don't think he's right for this team. At the risk of beating a dead horse, I have to say it, Drew Brees should have been a Miami Dolphin. The signs were there when he became available to Miami for the second time. Nick Saban made the wrong decision and I'm sure somewhere in his mind he's kicking himself for it.

Metal Panda
11-24-2006, 08:06 PM
Palmer isn't playing at a high level. He's having a horrible year. McGahee's gone through the two year period generally believed to be the recovery time from a major knee injury.

having a horrible year? You're insane.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 08:13 PM
It brings no light to the matter. What it looks like from 00' to 04' that their defenses, are relatively even. Though Indy may have given up a 100 or so more points in that time span which is about 25 more points per season, not very many by any means. The difference is that Indy's offense scored way more points in that time span. About 75 more pts per season. That's the real difference.

So the Vikings may have allowed more points, but the Colts scored WAY more in that time span.Ditto, more scoring led to a better season, the running game and the passing games has been a constant in Indi for many years...while it only lasted a few years in Minny...and Defensively Indis D kept them in games as long as their high powered O performed...

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 08:21 PM
I don't want to hate on Duante but I just don't think he's right for this team. At the risk of beating a dead horse, I have to say it, Drew Brees should have been a Miami Dolphin. The signs were there when he became available to Miami for the second time. Nick Saban made the wrong decision and I'm sure somewhere in his mind he's kicking himself for it.from another post on this site... it is a Len Pasquarelly article at ESPN...

"Like Pennington, quarterback Drew Brees (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5479) of New Orleans came back from extensive shoulder surgery, and is on pace to throw for nearly 5,000 yards. Now that Brees has demonstrated how healthy he is -- healthy enough to be a candidate for most valuable player -- the extent of his shoulder injury can be revealed. It seems that Brees had a 360-degree tear of the labrum and that the repair work done by surgeon James Andrews, the renowned orthopedist from Birmingham, Ala., included the insertion of nearly a dozen pins in the shoulder. That makes the comeback Brees -- who threw for over 500 yards in a losing cause in Week 11 -- all the more remarkable."

He had a real career ending injury, and one that "can" be re-injured. You cannot blame Saban for not taking the $10 million risk...specially one that uses the arm to throw...

kud
11-24-2006, 08:24 PM
Ditto, more scoring led to a better season, the running game and the passing games has been a constant in Indi for many years...while it only lasted a few years in Minny...and Defensively Indis D kept them in games as long as their high powered O performed...

No, the difference is that Manning is a constant, and Culpepper is not.

By the way I meant to say Minnesota had given up more points in my last post, I said Indy, I edited it.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 08:28 PM
No, the difference is that Manning is a constant, and Culpepper is not.well we all have our opinions...and I also believe that Manning is better than DC...but he had better offensive weapons and OL for a much longer time than DC has had...and there is no deniying that...

kud
11-24-2006, 08:35 PM
well we all have our opinions...and I also believe that Manning is better than DC...but he had better offensive weapons and OL for a much longer time than DC has had...and there is no deniying that...

It's not something anybody should have an opinion on. Manning WAS way better than Culpepper.

Now there's not even a comparision considering Daunte's injury.

I was just comparing the success of two explosive offenses with a lack of a defense with two different QBs in their primes. It's not even close, which is why Manning makes the playoffs every year and Daunte sat home watching the playoffs most years.

If this guy can only get into the playoffs twice (one with an 8-8 record) when healthy and in his prime. What the hell do you expect him to do here with a bionic knee? It's really hard for me to understand people's logic on why they are so high on Culpepper.

I guess people think that because we have a defense here Daunte can do better. Unfortunately we don't have the offense Minne. had. It'll be awhile, if ever, for us to find two WRs of that caliber, and build an Oline of that caliber. Randy Moss alone was better than all our receivers combined.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 08:41 PM
Wait so your saying that the Minnesota defense gave up the same points as the Colts defense so therefor Pep sucks?

Correct me if Im wrong on that.

Thats a HORRIBE comparison, If anything it proves Pep was pretty good, the Colts D was TERRIBLE for a good many years and Peyton is in a class of his own. Not many other QB's could have a winning record with that Colts D. Not to mention Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and Edge (while he was there) was better than anything Pep ever had except the first year he started when he had success

Dolfan984
11-24-2006, 08:42 PM
No, the difference is that Manning is a constant, and Culpepper is not.

By the way I meant to say Minnesota had given up more points in my last post, I said Indy, I edited it.

Dude noone in the freaking league matches up to Peyton Manning. Bad example.

Dolfan984
11-24-2006, 08:47 PM
It's not something anybody should have an opinion on. Manning WAS way better than Culpepper.

Now there's not even a comparision considering Daunte's injury.

I was just comparing the success of two explosive offenses with a lack of a defense with two different QBs in their primes. It's not even close, which is why Manning makes the playoffs every year and Daunte sat home watching the playoffs most years.

If this guy can only get into the playoffs twice (one with an 8-8 record) when healthy and in his prime. What the hell do you expect him to do here with a bionic knee? It's really hard for me to understand people's logic on why they are so high on Culpepper.

I guess people think that because we have a defense here Daunte can do better. Unfortunately we don't have the offense Minne. had. It'll be awhile, if ever, for us to find two WRs of that caliber, and build an Oline of that caliber. Randy Moss alone was better than all our receivers combined.

The point is, you have to be Peyton Manning if you're going to have that bad of a defense and be consistantly successful. Doesn't mean you can't win with a defense as good as Miami's.

Silentobserver
11-24-2006, 08:50 PM
Culpepper will never get the starting job as QB for the Dolphins unless Joey is hurt or gone. Culpepper has played poorly before he was hurt in 2005 and after he was almost healed. He is done. He has to have an elite WR corp and line to be any good. End of story.

kud
11-24-2006, 08:51 PM
Wait so your saying that the Minnesota defense gave up the same points as the Colts defense so therefor Pep sucks?

Negivite, i'm comparing two exposive offenses with a lack of defensive support, one that made the playoffs every year, and one that rarely made the playoffs.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 08:52 PM
Culpepper will never get the starting job as QB for the Dolphins unless Joey is hurt or gone. Culpepper has played poorly before he was hurt in 2005 and after he was almost healed. He is done. He has to have an elite WR corp and line to be any good. End of story.

He injured his knee week 1 last season and it was filled with liquid. Later in the year he blew out his other knee. Before he got seriously injured he actually went on a run of 6 TD to 0 INT

Your whole post is incorrect

Alex44
11-24-2006, 08:53 PM
Negivite, i'm comparing two exposive offenses with a lack of defensive support, one that made the playoffs every year, and one that rarely made the playoffs.

Why are you comparing an offense that has two of the best WR and had one of the best runningbacks (not to mention the O-line) with a team that Had a QB and one WR?

Thats still a horrible comparison

kud
11-24-2006, 08:59 PM
The point is, you have to be Peyton Manning if you're going to have that bad of a defense and be consistantly successful. Doesn't mean you can't win with a defense as good as Miami's.

No, it means Daunte was very inconsistant from season to season. In 00' and 04' he was very much comparable to Peyton, the years he made the playoffs.

You take those weapons Daunte had away from him and he sucks. see 2-4 in 05' 6 TD 12 INT. Or this year 1-3 2 TD 3 INT *21 sacks. It doesn't matter what his defense looks like, he's a crap QB anyway without his weapons. Not to mention he averages a fumble PER game his whole career, most of which is with a top Oline.

If he needs a lot of weapons, and a top defense to be successful, then he isn't very good anyhow.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:01 PM
It is a "team" who puts up wins...not an individual... you are incorrect in blaming losses to one players or one coach...

A team wins Championships, not the QB...WR...DE...or RB....

Thank you Disnardo. It is nice to see someone else make this argument besides myself. The more I hear, 'Well we are winning and that is all that matters when it comes to QBs', the more I think that is the most ignorant statement you can make about football. It is absurd to credit wins/losses to one player, no matter what player you choose. So please stop with that stuff.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:01 PM
Why are you comparing an offense that has two of the best WR and had one of the best runningbacks (not to mention the O-line) with a team that Had a QB and one WR?

Thats still a horrible comparison

Because Minnesota also had two of the best WRs(Moss, Carter) not to mention the O-line. And yes they had a good running game for years(Bennett, and even Smith) they were a product of that great O-line mostly, but still very effective.

Dol-Fan Dupree
11-24-2006, 09:03 PM
:confused:

I did use the word practically. Bad throws in the end zone due have a tendancy to be a great cause in a team loss. There were many other factors as well.

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 09:08 PM
I did use the word practically. Bad throws in the end zone due have a tendancy to be a great cause in a team loss. There were many other factors as well.

K, just checking :lol:

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:11 PM
I made it clear that by pressure I mean, in playoff races, or in the playoffs. Find Brady's stats in the playoffs then get back to me.

As for Peyton, well much like Daunte he hasn't proven he can win when it really matters. He's a great regular season QB, but until he proves he can win when it matters he's not a clutch performer.

Diffence is, Peyton almost always leads his team at least to the playoffs.

In the first playoff run the Patriots had with Brady at QB, his numbers were not good. For the three playoff games in 2001, he combined for 1 TD and 1INT. Let me repeat that because that is his total for THREE games. 1 TD and 1 INT. The Pats defense never gave up more than 17 points in any of those games and all Brady had to do was not screw it up. Since then he has done well, but that 2001 season just shows that everyone struggles at some point.

As far as Peyton, yes he stuggled in a couple of games. But once again everyone blames it solely on the QB and they only remember the losses. For his career in the playoffs, Manning has 15 TD and 8 INT. Half of those INTs came in one game against a very good Patriot defense. He has won 3 playoff games. So how do you come to the conclusion that he can't win games when it counts. Every playoff games coutn. And since he has won 3, doesn't that mean he can win games when it counts.

Daunte has won half of the playoff games he has been in. Doesn't that mean he can win games when it counts? And as far as your assumption that only playoff games count, what about the 16 games you play in order to get into the playoffs? Every single coach in the league will tell you that every single one of those games count. So why can't you say the regular season doesn't count if you have to win games during it to even get in the playoffs?

Alex44
11-24-2006, 09:12 PM
Because Minnesota also had two of the best WRs(Moss, Carter) not to mention the O-line. And yes they had a good running game for years(Bennett, and even Smith) they were a product of that great O-line mostly, but still very effective.

He only had Carter ONE YEAR when he started. They were 11-5 that year.

Smith retired very soon after Pep came and your calling Bennet a very good RB?? Thats very very laughable

Doubt Culpepper but at least do it for a legit reason.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 09:13 PM
It's not something anybody should have an opinion on. Manning WAS way better than Culpepper. I agree, as long as Manning has had a better OL (sacked only 103 times in 5 seasons), running game and a pro bowl team of receivers, he has the right to be more consistant...The only thing that Daunte had for 2 years was a set of receivers, because that OL have allowed 197 sacks in that same period to a scrambling QB to say the least...


I was just comparing the success of two explosive offenses with a lack of a defense with two different QBs in their primes.
again see above, only 1 Offense was explossive for the long run...and it was not Minny, unless you can say that Moss was the only Offensive weapon Minny needed...but no protection from that OL and all Daunte could do was throw up to Moss...


It's really hard for me to understand people's logic on why they are so high on Culpepper. Some people are biased and others use logic, just not the way you use yours...


I guess people think that because we have a defense here Daunte can do better. Unfortunately we don't have the offense Minne. had. It'll be awhile, if ever, for us to find two WRs of that caliber, and build an Oline of that caliber. Randy Moss alone was better than all our receivers combined.
Well we had Fiedler who is a good backup QB, and all he ever did as a starter was win games, when he had as many TDs as Turn Overs...

Miamis O during Fiedlers career here had many more TO than Minny with Daunte and Miami's D still did not give up the points Minnys D did...

So bottom line is, if Daunte throws more TDs than TOs as he has done throught most of his career seasons, he should do better...
Hope this clears out some of your questions...

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:13 PM
No, it means Daunte was very inconsistant from season to season. In 00' and 04' he was very much comparable to Peyton, the years he made the playoffs.

You take those weapons Daunte had away from him and he sucks. see 2-4 in 05' 6 TD 12 INT. Or this year 1-3 2 TD 3 INT *21 sacks. It doesn't matter what his defense looks like, he's a crap QB anyway without his weapons. Not to mention he averages a fumble PER game his whole career, most of which is with a top Oline.

If he needs a lot of weapons, and a top defense to be successful, then he isn't very good anyhow.

Every QB aside from Dan Marino needs all of those things to be successful. Manning has always had great weapons. Montana and Young always did. Brady has always had very good defenses when he has won. And look at Brady this year. He has his worst weapons on offense he has ever had and he is not playing well.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:17 PM
In the first playoff run the Patriots had with Brady at QB, his numbers were not good. For the three playoff games in 2001, he combined for 1 TD and 1INT. Let me repeat that because that is his total for THREE games. 1 TD and 1 INT. The Pats defense never gave up more than 17 points in any of those games and all Brady had to do was not screw it up. Since then he has done well, but that 2001 season just shows that everyone struggles at some point.

What does that mean? It was Brady's first (half) season starting. Who really cares? I don't mean to be rude but that's not even worth bringing up.

Since then he has done very well, right.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:20 PM
What does that mean? It was Brady's first (half) season starting. Who really cares? I don't mean to be rude but that's not even worth bringing up.

Since then he has done very well, right.

You said in one of your posts to get Brady's stats and then come talk to you. So that is what I did. I was showing you that everyone struggles at some point. And I was showing you that both Manning and Daunte have won in the playoffs. And it is therefore wrong to say that they can't win games that matter.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:23 PM
Here is an article explaining why we have won 4 in a row.

http://dolphins.scout.com/2/594137.html

The bolded paragraph at the beginning sums it up nicely.

Here is that paragraph in case you guys can't see the page from the link:

As good a story as Joey Harrington getting some revenge in Detroit was, make no mistake about why the Dolphins won their fourth consecutive game. Actually, the victory over Detroit pretty much came the same way as those over Chicago, Kansas City and Minnesota. These days in Miami, it's all about the defense.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 09:26 PM
What does that mean? It was Brady's first (half) season starting. Who really cares? I don't mean to be rude but that's not even worth bringing up.

Since then he has done very well, right.Well looking at the stats logically so has Culpepper...

their career QB rating...

Brady 89...
Daunte 91...

This is saying that the individuals have done well...now if you want to say how well the team has performed...you already know the answer..

hof13
11-24-2006, 09:28 PM
OKay now go find out the teams he was playing against...K thanks...not hard to do when you playing Lafayette or ul Monroe. I am a UCF grad and Id love for him to be great but I I dont see it happening. ANd all i see are people grasping at a player who will never be 100% again.

When you go to UCf you watch games with people from your school in it because we dont have a lot out there yet. I watched a lot of minisota games over 5 years. He made a lot of stupid mistakes in those years

And amazing Daunte didn't play Lafayette or UL Monroe when breaking the 15 year single-season completion percentage record of Steve Young.

Yes, he played in the MAC, but interesting enough so did Ben R, Chad Pennington, Bryon Leftwich, Bruce G, and Charlie Frye. Is there some reason why none of the them have the record?

And I really wish you'd stop telling people you went to UCF. It's lowering the value of my degrees.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:28 PM
Well looking at the stats logically so has Culpepper...

their career QB rating...

Brady 89...
Daunte 91...

This is saying that the individuals have done well...now if you want to say how well the team has performed...you already know the answer..

Exactly. Some of you guys have to start seperating individual performance and team performance because they are far from the same thing.

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 09:30 PM
What does that mean? It was Brady's first (half) season starting. Who really cares? I don't mean to be rude but that's not even worth bringing up.

Since then he has done very well, right.

I am starting to see Harrington doing the same thing Brady did when he started his career. Brady came in when Bledsoe was hurt played decent at first then had a breakout game against the Colt's and by the time Bledose was ready to start again Brady had taken his job.

Culpepper looked much like Bledsoe at the beggining of this year Harrington comes in plays decent, has a breakout game yesterday and if this trend continues I think it's safe to say we wont even be having this discussion coem the end of the year because Culpepper will end up going the way of Bledsoe.

The situation is eerily similiar, it all depends if Harrington can keep up the level of play he had yesterday.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:36 PM
I am starting to see Harrington doing the same thing Brady did when he started his career. Brady came in when Bledsoe was hurt played decent at first then had a breakout game against the Colt's and by the time Bledose was ready to start again Brady had taken his job.

Culpepper looked much like Bledsoe at the beggining of this year Harrington comes in plays decent, has a breakout game yesterday and if this trend continues I think it's safe to say we wont even be having this discussion coem the end of the year because Culpepper will end up going the way of Bledsoe.

The situation is eerily similiar, it all depends if Harrington can keep up the level of play he had yesterday.

The Patriots were not satisfied with Bledsoe's play before the injury and were thinking about benching him anyway. Brady had a decent season that year with 18TD and 12INT. Even so, Joey is not playing as well as Brady did that year. Daunte was playing poorly in large part due to his injury. So I find it hard to believe that he will be traded like Bledsoe was. I think at worst an open competition will be held in camp for the starting job.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:40 PM
I agree, as long as Manning has had a better OL (sacked only 103 times in 5 seasons), running game and a pro bowl team of receivers, he has the right to be more consistant...The only thing that Daunte had for 2 years was a set of receivers, because that OL have allowed 197 sacks in that same period to a scrambling QB to say the least...

In 02' Bennet carried the ball for 1296 yards, an avg. of 5.0 ypc.

In 03' a trio of RBs (Moe Williams, Onterrio Smith, Michael Bennett) rushed for 1771 yards for a combined avg of 4.9 ypc.

In 04' a trio of RBs (Onterrio Smith, Mewelde Moore, Michael Bennet) rushed for 1199 yards for an avg of 4.7 ypc

So much for no running game huh chief? I think the amount of sacks Daunte collected can be just as much attributed to his poor reads and lack of decision making as the O-line. Vikings O-line was consistanly ranked in the top half of the league.



again see above, only 1 Offense was explossive for the long run...and it was not Minny, unless you can say that Moss was the only Offensive weapon Minny needed...but no protection from that OL and all Daunte could do was throw up to Moss...

Some people are biased and others use logic, just not the way you use yours...

I'm not at all biased, you might want to do a little research before you post bogus crap like Minnesota had no running game which I just disproved. And that Culpepper only had one WR in Moss. I guess you've never heard of hall of fame WR Cris Carter. You should have cause he played a year for the Dolphins.




Well we had Fiedler who is a good backup QB, and all he ever did as a starter was win games, when he had as many TDs as Turn Overs...

Miamis O during Fiedlers career here had many more TO than Minny with Daunte and Miami's D still did not give up the points Minnys D did...

So bottom line is, if Daunte throws more TDs than TOs as he has done throught most of his career seasons, he should do better...
Hope this clears out some of your questions...

I haven't asked any questions.

You have proof of the bold?

and no Daunte doesn't have more TDs than turnovers. He has WAY more turnovers in fact.

137 TDs/183 TOs

you make it way too easy Disnardo.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 09:42 PM
Hey DP one thing I find very intriguing is that Daunte has broguht his team back from deficits at the end of the 3rd quarter 3 times in his career...Brady has had a few chances to do that and has failed, this includes games in the Post Season...

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 09:43 PM
The Patriots were not satisfied with Bledsoe's play before the injury and were thinking about benching him anyway. Brady had a decent season that year with 18TD and 12INT. Even so, Joey is not playing as well as Brady did that year. Daunte was playing poorly in large part due to his injury. So I find it hard to believe that he will be traded like Bledsoe was. I think at worst an open competition will be held in camp for the starting job.

The Dolphins weren't satisfied with Culpepper's play either, another similiarity. I am just saying if Harrington continues to improve and play like he did yesterday it could go very much the same way.

I am not sure but if Culpepper is in training camp doesn't that mean he gets paid for the year? If that is the case and Harrington has a few more games like yesterday I'm not so sure we would see Culpepper back due to the amount of money he would have to be paid. We took a chance on him, only gave him 1 Mill this year it would seem they were playing it safe in case this didn't work out.

hof13
11-24-2006, 09:45 PM
and no Daunte doesn't have more TDs than turnovers. He has WAY more turnovers in fact.

137 TDs/183 TOs

you make it way too easy Disnardo.

Only too easy in a bizarro world where a fumble recovered by your own team is a turnover.

137 TDs/124 TOs is my calculation.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:45 PM
In 02' Bennet carried the ball for 1296 yards, an avg. of 5.0 ypc.

In 03' a trio of RBs (Moe Williams, Onterrio Smith, Michael Bennett) rushed for 1771 yards for a combined avg of 4.9 ypc.

In 04' a trio of RBs (Onterrio Smith, Mewelde Moore, Michael Bennet) rushed for 1199 yards for an avg of 4.7 ypc

So much for no running game huh chief? I think the amount of sacks Daunte collected can be just as much attributed to his poor reads and lack of decision making as the O-line. Vikings O-line was consistanly ranked in the top half of the league.




I'm not at all biased, you might want to do a little research before you post bogus crap like Minnesota had no running game which I just disproved. And that Culpepper only had one WR in Moss. I guess you've never heard of hall of fame WR Cris Carter. You should have cause he played a year for the Dolphins.





I haven't asked any questions.

You have proof of the bold?

and no Daunte doesn't have more TDs than turnovers. He has WAY more turnovers in fact.

137 TDs/183 TOs

you make it way too easy Disnardo.

He has 125 turnovers in his career. You are counting total fumbles and not fumbles lost. A fumble is only a turnover is you loose it. He has 35 lost fumbles to add to his 89 INTs.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:46 PM
You said in one of your posts to get Brady's stats and then come talk to you. So that is what I did. I was showing you that everyone struggles at some point. And I was showing you that both Manning and Daunte have won in the playoffs. And it is therefore wrong to say that they can't win games that matter.

I said get Brady's playoff stats and you conveniently bring up 01' when Brady was starting for the first time in his career?

Oh man you got me good. :sidelol:


He has 125 turnovers in his career. You are counting total fumbles and not fumbles lost. A fumble is only a turnover is you loose it. He has 35 lost fumbles to add to his 89 INTs.

You're right my mistake, i'm arguing with two many people at once! but that ratio is too close for comfort. Now tell me how Daunte had no running game. ;)

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:47 PM
Hey DP one thing I find very intriguing is that Daunte has broguht his team back from deficits at the end of the 3rd quarter 3 times in his career...Brady has had a few chances to do that and has failed, this includes games in the Post Season...

That is intriguing. I have always thought things like 4th quarter comebacks are more of a thing where some guys have more opportunities than others as the big reason they have more. I found an article explaining that and it said that Daunte is considered good in 4th quarter comebacks.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 09:47 PM
In 02' Bennet carried the ball for 1296 yards, an avg. of 5.0 ypc.

In 03' a trio of RBs (Moe Williams, Onterrio Smith, Michael Bennett) rushed for 1771 yards for a combined avg of 4.9 ypc.

In 04' a trio of RBs (Onterrio Smith, Mewelde Moore, Michael Bennet) rushed for 1199 yards for an avg of 4.7 ypc

So much for no running game huh chief? I think the amount of sacks Daunte collected can be just as much attributed to his poor reads and lack of decision making as the O-line. Vikings O-line was consistanly ranked in the top half of the league.






I'm not at all biased, you might want to do a little research before you post bogus crap like Minnesota had no running game which I just disproved. And that Culpepper only had one WR in Moss. I guess you've never heard of hall of fame WR Cris Carter. You should have cause he played a year for the Dolphins.





I haven't asked any questions.

You have proof of the bold?

and no Daunte doesn't have more TDs than turnovers. He has WAY more turnovers in fact.

137 TDs/183 TOs

you make it way too easy Disnardo.

What stats are you looking at?

137 Passing TD's
30 Rushing TD

Thats 167 TD

89 INT
35 Fumbles Lost

Thats 124 Turnovers

Its you who are making it to easy my friend.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 09:48 PM
I said get Brady's playoff stats and you conveniently bring up 01' when Brady was starting for the first time in his career?

Oh man you got me good. :sidelol:



You're right my mistake, but that ratio is too close for comfort. Now tell me how Daunte had no running game. ;)

So you have compared him to Tom Brady and Peyron Manning,

How about making a realistic comparison to an above average QB.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:49 PM
What stats are you looking at?

137 Passing TD's
30 Rushing TD

Thats 167 TD

89 INT
35 Fumbles Lost

Thats 124 Turnovers

Its you who are making it to easy my friend.

Damn good call. I forgot to throw in the rushing TDs.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:50 PM
What stats are you looking at?

137 Passing TD's
30 Rushing TD

Thats 167 TD

89 INT
35 Fumbles Lost

Thats 124 Turnovers

Its you who are making it to easy my friend.

I made a mistake. Cry me a river. :boohoo:

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Culpooper had no run support in Minne!

xflashx
11-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Daunte is done guys. Dont be in denial. KuD everything you say is exactley correct. I agree Daunte is not a clutch player at all. I good season QB is all he is and now he on his downside. Wait wait retire number 8. hahahahaha

Alex44
11-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Damn good call. I forgot to throw in the rushing TDs.

And if you want to get more into fumbles, well he fumbles at nearly the exact same pace as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. He just has many many more rushing attempts and touches.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 09:51 PM
I made a mistake. Cry me a river. :boohoo:

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Culpooper had no run support in Minne!

Im just correcting the mistake.

How can we have a decent debate if no-one corrects other mistakes? It would just be filled with false info.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:52 PM
I said get Brady's playoff stats and you conveniently bring up 01' when Brady was starting for the first time in his career?

Oh man you got me good. :sidelol:



You're right my mistake, i'm arguing with two many people at once! but that ratio is too close for comfort. Now tell me how Daunte had no running game. ;)

The only reason I brought up 01 was to show you that everyone struggles at some point and is allowed to. You can't be perfect all of the time.

I am not going to tell that he didn't have a running game. I will tell you that he has never had a defense ranked above 23rd in points allowed during his career as a starter. That is the main reason the Vikings didn't win more games.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:52 PM
Daunte is done guys. Dont be in denial. KuD everything you say is exactley correct. I agree Daunte is not a clutch player at all. I good season QB is all he is and now he on his downside. Wait wait retire number 8. hahahahaha

Thank you Flash! Fortunately, there are several people here agree with me. Unfortunately they're not here to back me up!

xflashx
11-24-2006, 09:53 PM
And if you want to get more into fumbles, well he fumbles at nearly the exact same pace as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. He just has many many more rushing attempts and touches.

Daunte Culpepper averages a fumble a game!!!! Brady and Manning do not.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:53 PM
And if you want to get more into fumbles, well he fumbles at nearly the exact same pace as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. He just has many many more rushing attempts and touches.

Exactly. The more you run the football, the more likely you are to fumble. Actually, you will fumble the football the more times you run it. That is just how it goes. You can't excape that.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 09:54 PM
And if you want to get more into fumbles, well he fumbles at nearly the exact same pace as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. He just has many many more rushing attempts and touches.

Daunte Culpepper averages a fumble a game!!!! Brady and Manning do not.

Daunte averages 2 TDs a game. Brady and Manning do not.

Alex44
11-24-2006, 09:56 PM
Daunte Culpepper averages a fumble a game!!!! Brady and Manning do not.

Do you know how to read?

Based on touches he averages the same amount of fumbles

Actually I'll make it easier for you to understand in case you still dont

If they were to both touch the ball 100 times they would have the same number of fumbles. However they DONT touch the ball the same amount of times. Daunte due to his rushing attempts touches it far more. Ive done the math a few months ago and it turned out that yes they do in fact fumble the same amount per touch.

kud
11-24-2006, 09:56 PM
The only reason I brought up 01 was to show you that everyone struggles at some point and is allowed to. You can't be perfect all of the time.

I am not going to tell that he didn't have a running game. I will tell you that he has never had a defense ranked above 23rd in points allowed during his career as a starter. That is the main reason the Vikings didn't win more games.

Well my friend that's kind of a gimme. You're not really telling me anything I don't know. There's no single player in any sport that can be clutch all the time. But Culpepper is rarely clutch, while the example I gave of Brady is very clutch much of the time, which was my point in the first place until you spun it into a scenerio where I said Brady is 'always' clutch, and I of course never said such a thing!

Alex44
11-24-2006, 10:00 PM
Well my friend that's kind of a gimme. You're not really telling me anything I don't know. There's no single player in any sport that can be clutch all the time. But Culpepper is rarely clutch, while the example I gave of Brady is very clutch much of the time, which was my point in the first place until you spun it into a scenerio where I said Brady is 'always' clutch, and I of course never said such a thing!

Peyton hasnt proven to be clutch either. Would you be upset if we traded for him?

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 10:02 PM
Well my friend that's kind of a gimme. You're not really telling me anything I don't know. There's no single player in any sport that can be clutch all the time. But Culpepper is rarely clutch, while the example I gave of Brady is very clutch much of the time, which was my point in the first place until you spun it into a scenerio where I said Brady is 'always' clutch, and I of course never said such a thing!

Your right for the most part there. But Daunte has only played in 4 playoff games and he has played well half of the time. So I am not following how he is rarely clutch if he hasn't really gotten the same opportunity that Brady has.

kud
11-24-2006, 10:03 PM
Peyton hasnt proven to be clutch either. Would you be upset if we traded for him?

Peyton is healthy, of course I wouldn't be upset. He also gets his team to the playoffs every year despite minimal success.

kud
11-24-2006, 10:06 PM
Your right for the most part there. But Daunte has only played in 4 playoff games and he has played well half of the time. So I am not following how he is rarely clutch if he hasn't really gotten the same opportunity that Brady has.

If he playing well half of the time is gonna get you a bunch of 8-8 seasons. :wink:

Seriously though, you have to get there first to prove your worth. Chasing a playoff spot is worth just as much as the playoffs themself.

Anyways I got a HEAT game on TiVo to watch, so i'm outro.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 10:11 PM
If he playing well half of the time is gonna get you a bunch of 8-8 seasons. :wink:

Seriously though, you have to get there first to prove your worth. Chasing a playoff spot is worth just as much as the playoffs themself.

I totally agree. That is why I have brought up the fact that while in Minnesota, Daunte's best defense was ranked 23rd in points allowed. It is really hard to get to the playoffs when your defense is always ranked towards the bottom on the league. It didn't matter how many INTs he threw. He could throw 11 or 20 and the defense would still be ranked low. Manning has had some better defenses than Daunte. Indy was ranked 2nd in points allowed last year. In every year that Manning has made the playoffs, the defense has been ranked no worse than 20th. In the years when they were ranked above 20th, the team has a losing record.

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 10:18 PM
I hate these arguments so I'm staying out of it but here is some info RenoFinFan provided in another thread that put things in a totally different perspective for me:

http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=170078&page=6&highlight=renofinfan

Culpepper's 3 best seasons:

2000 - team starts 11-2, but finishes season 0-3 and loses to NYG in playoffs 41-0

2003 - team starts 6-0 (4-0 as Daunte starts), but finishes season 3-7

2004 - team starts 5-1, but finishes the season 3-7


Culpepper's career sacks:

85 games 249 sacks for a loss of 1364 Yards


Culpepper's career negative plays:

sacks + turnovers (373 in 85 games) comes to 4.39 negative plays per game



Culpepper's inflated stats due to sacks:

A typical drive

P1: 1st and 10 - 15 yard completion
P2: 1st and 10 - 4 yard run
P3: 2nd and 6 - 8 yard sack
P4: 3rd and 14 - 8 yard pass
P5: Punt

DC stats: 2 for 2 for 23 yards QB rating of 114.58



When he plays great his record is 15-15 as a leader (03, 04).

When he plays poorly his record is 14-25 as a leader (01, 02, 05, 06).



Hope Reno doesn't mind me reposting this info.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 10:22 PM
I hate these arguments so I'm staying out of it but here is some info RenoFinFan provided in another thread that put things in a totally different perspective for me:

http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=170078&page=6&highlight=renofinfan

Culpepper's 3 best seasons:

2000 - team starts 11-2, but finishes season 0-3 and loses to NYG in playoffs 41-0

2003 - team starts 6-0 (4-0 as Daunte starts), but finishes season 3-7

2004 - team starts 5-1, but finishes the season 3-7


Culpepper's career sacks:

85 games 249 sacks for a loss of 1364 Yards


Culpepper's career negative plays:

sacks + turnovers (373 in 85 games) comes to 4.39 negative plays per game



Culpepper's inflated stats due to sacks:

A typical drive

P1: 1st and 10 - 15 yard completion
P2: 1st and 10 - 4 yard run
P3: 2nd and 6 - 8 yard sack
P4: 3rd and 14 - 8 yard pass
P5: Punt

DC stats: 2 for 2 for 23 yards QB rating of 114.58



When he plays great his record is 15-15 as a leader (03, 04).

When he plays poorly his record is 14-25 as a leader (01, 02, 05, 06).



Hope Reno doesn't mind me reposting this info.

You are still attributing team wins/losses to one play and I think that is totally unfair. If you explain to me how those wins and losses are directly related to Daunte's play, then I will pay more attention to them. How do you know the defense didn't fall apart in the second half of seasons? That could be due to injury or a lot of other mitigating circumstances. I think we should be looking strictly at his performance throwing the football and not what the TEAM's win/loss record has been.

IluvJuMiami
11-24-2006, 10:24 PM
Look guy, Pepper will have a chance to compete next offseason. Right now, get use to the name Joey Harrington. You don't like it, cry yourselves to sleep. Anyone with a working eye can see that Joey is playing well and improving. So keep the pepper on the dinner table and root for your QB.

bluehaze
11-24-2006, 10:26 PM
You are still attributing team wins/losses to one play and I think that is totally unfair. If you explain to me how those wins and losses are directly related to Daunte's play, then I will pay more attention to them. How do you know the defense didn't fall apart in the second half of seasons? That could be due to injury or a lot of other mitigating circumstances. I think we should be looking strictly at his performance throwing the football and not what the TEAM's win/loss record has been.

Well I dont want to get into an argument over it, I feel it will all work itself out in time anyway however this part:

Culpepper's career sacks:
85 games 249 sacks for a loss of 1364 Yards

Culpepper's career negative plays:
sacks + turnovers (373 in 85 games) comes to 4.39 negative plays per game

That's alot for a team to overcome and that was preinjured Culpepper.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 10:42 PM
Well I dont want to get into an argument over it, I feel it will all work itself out in time anyway however this part:

Culpepper's career sacks:
85 games 249 sacks for a loss of 1364 Yards

Culpepper's career negative plays:
sacks + turnovers (373 in 85 games) comes to 4.39 negative plays per game

That's alot for a team to overcome and that was preinjured Culpepper.

Thats great, but a preinjured Culpepper was averaging about 280 yards per game and 2 TDs per game. The Vikes were ranked in the top 10 in points scored in every year Daunte was the starter except for one year. The offense was doing its part and he was a big reason it was doing so.

Since part of one of the previous posts suggested that the team played poorly at the end of the season, I looked at every year he had in Minny and seperated his stats between the first half of the season and the second half.

1st half / 2nd half
00: 15 TD 9 INT / 18 TD 7 INT

01: 7 TD 7 INT / 7 TD 6 INT

02: 8 TD 12 INT / 10 TD 11 INT

03: 11 TD 2 INT / 14 TD 9 INT

04: 21 TD 5 INT / 18 TD 6 INT

first 2 games of 05: 0 TD 8 INT / next 5 games: 6 TD 4 INT

There is little to suggest that he plays worse at the end of the season. And as a side note, not every sack is a QB's fault. There were at least a couple of sacks this year that he couldn't avoid even if he was Michael Vick. So as far as his career sacks, we don't really know how many were his fault.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 10:45 PM
In 02' Bennet carried the ball for 1296 yards, an avg. of 5.0 ypc.

In 03' a trio of RBs (Moe Williams, Onterrio Smith, Michael Bennett) rushed for 1771 yards for a combined avg of 4.9 ypc.

In 04' a trio of RBs (Onterrio Smith, Mewelde Moore, Michael Bennet) rushed for 1199 yards for an avg of 4.7 ypc

So much for no running game huh chief?
Nice average, but I am talking about a running game, you know like 25-30 touches a game??? The averaged about 16-23 touches a games from 2000-2004...everything else was on the QB...ohh and lets not forget to add...

The 470 yds on 90 carries and 7 TDs Daunte had in 2000...
The 416 yds on 71 carries and 5 TDs Daunte had in 2001...
The 603 yds on 105 carries and 10 TDs Daunte had 2002...
The 422 yds on 72 carries and 4 TDs Daunte had in 2003...
The 406 yds on 89 carries and 2 TDs Daunte had in 2004...

If you go back and check I believe you will find that Daunte was the second best runner in the team for most of these years...:wink:


I think the amount of sacks Daunte collected can be just as much attributed to his poor reads and lack of decision making as the O-line. Vikings O-line was consistanly ranked in the top half of the league.
You could be right, but again its your opinion (I mean when you say I think). It's been stated by at least one of the WRs who played with Daunte that the Minny gameplan was to throw to Moss, so he would have to wait for the play downfield to open up...read it here...

"I think you're going to see a better Daunte than you did in Minnesota," Dolphins receiver Kelly Campbell said. He should know. He was there with him for four seasons.

The reason Campbell said Culpepper will be better is because he doesn't have Randy Moss. That might seem like lunacy since Moss is arguably the best receiver in football, but to hear Campbell explain it, it's really not.

"He didn't have the freedom to run the offense and do his thing," said Campbell, who signed with the Dolphins as a free agent this spring. "He was too focused on people telling him where the ball should go. Here, he uses all the guys instead of focusing on one player. Instead of looking at that one guy, holding it, waiting and waiting on him to get open, and then going somewhere else late, he is spreading it around here. That wasn't his fault. It's just the way they wanted it. I don't want to say it was all on the coaches there, but it was on everybody to get the ball to Randy. Now he just looks at his No. 1 read, if it's not there, he goes right to the next one and then the next one. It will make him a better player."


I'm not at all biased, you might want to do a little research before you post bogus crap like Minnesota had no running game which I just disproved. And that Culpepper only had one WR in Moss. I guess you've never heard of hall of fame WR Cris Carter. You should have cause he played a year for the Dolphins. I never said you were biased, I said "some people" when you refered as to why some people make take Daunte for granted...

and Cris played for only 2 years with Minny and Daunte, not 5 years...they made the Post season in Daunte's 1st starting year...but as you said to another poster, the first starting year does not count...Cris was not much in production in the 2nd with Daunte...


You have proof of the bold?here it is from a post of mine in July of this year...

I plan to make this my last analysis on the Daunte issue TO causing Defenses to allow points…

Looking at TO (INT + Fumbles), for the Dolphins from 2000-2004, and comparing them to Daunte's from the same years. I am adding a little more perspective, showing Points Allowed (PA) margins from both teams Defenses….

Hopefully this is easy to follow…

Miami’s D PA; Turnovers
00 = ........226....... 19
01 = ........290....... 23
02 = ........301....... 20
03 = ........261....... 27
04 = ........298....... 35

Minny’s D PA; Turnovers
00 = ........371....... 22
01 = ........390....... 23
02 = .........442...... 32
03 = .........353...... 17
04 = .........395...... 15

Now let’s look at
00… 3 more TO’s from Daunte allowed his D to give up 145 more points…
01… the same TO’s as Daunte but his D somehow allowed 100 more points…
02… 12 more TO’s from Daunte allowed his D to give up 141 points…
03… Daunte had 10 less TO’s but his D somehow allowed 92 more points…
04… Daunte had 20 less TO’s but his D somehow allowed 97 more points…

In 04 AJ, JF, and Sage threw 8 picks for INTs a team record in a season. We lost quite a few games on the pick 6s that year, but the D kept trying to win games, hell they could have tried to give up 400 points the way our Offense was going, but did not. JF had at least 1 pick 6 per season from 00-03 and Lucas had a couple in his short career here. How many has DC had???

Another perspective, is that in 02, Minny;s D allowed 88 more points in that season than Miami in 04, even though Miami had more TOs.

Seemed like our past QBs made just as many if not more mistakes than Daunte, but somehow, I don't know, their Defense backed up their QBs and did not give up as many points as Minny's did. Maybe it had to do with the "FACT" that Minnys D was nowhere as good as you think it was? or Miami's D was extremely better than Minny's ???


That is how I see Culpepper, not perfect, but good enough of a QB that can be backed up by a great Defensive unit, one that he has never had playing with him in his career…


here is another bit of stats on QBR and win-loss record as team...

Daunte 2000-2005
Dolphins Starters 2000-2004

QBR Range...Record...Win %.....TD....INT...TD-INT Ratio...

<69%..........5-19.......(.208%)....14....55.......0.254...
<69%..........9-26.......(.257%)....22....71.......0.309...
70-85%........4-6........(.400%)....12....15......0.800...
70-85%........11-4.......(.733%)....17....15......1.133...
86-95%........2-6.........(.333%).....8.....5.......1.600...
86-95%........11-3.......(.785%)....11.....2.......5.500...
96-115%.......9-8........(.529%)....35.....9.......3.888...
96-115%.......5-3........(.625%)....11.....3........3.666...
116-130%.....15-3.......(.833%)....50....7.........7.142...
116-130%......6-0........(1.000%)..15....1.........15......
131% +.........5-1........(.833%).....22...1.........22.......
131% +.........4-0........(1.000%)...10...0...................


and another group of stats thsis deals with Daunte from 2000-2004...


Marino NEVER took a team to the Playoffs, when his Defense gave up OVER 332 POINTS in A SEASON...

Manning never took a team to the Post Season when his Defense allowed more than 351 Points....

Brady never did it when his Defense allowed more than 336 Points...

The Vikings Defense NEVER HAS GIVEN UP LESS THAN 353 POINTS IN A SEASON....

Daunte took his team to the Post Season with his Defense allowing 371 Points in 00, and 395 points in 04...

That should show something...:wink:


Hope you can see the difference...

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 11:03 PM
If some of you guys want to focus on sacks and negative plays, lets compare some QBs and their yardages.

Culpepper has started 84 games and has been sacked 249 times for a loss of 1364 yards.

Brady has started 88 games and has been sacked 173 times for a loss of 1093 yards.

Manning has started 168 games and has been sacked 168 times for a loss of 1103 yards.

So Culpepper has lost about 300 more yards on sacks compared to the other two. But lets look at their rushing numbers.

Culpepper has 2496 rushing yards in his career.

Brady has 382 rushing yards and Manning has 677 rushing yards. That totals 1059 for both of them combined. That isn't even half the yards Culpepper has rushing.

So while he has taken more sacks, he hasn't lost that much more yardage on them. And if you want to look strictly at yardage gained, he blows them away on rushing yards.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 11:06 PM
Damn Disnardo. I love when we come up with some badass research to support our arguments. Good job on that last one. That clearly shows that the Dolphins defense was a lot better able to handle turnovers by the offense. And it also clearly shows that no matter how much Daunte turned the ball over, their defense was going to give up a lot of points.

Brown42000
11-24-2006, 11:08 PM
These threads are becoming sickening and people should not be looking this much into all of these numbers.

Dolfan984
11-24-2006, 11:14 PM
Disnardo and dplunk ftw great posts guys enjoyed reading them

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 11:17 PM
Damn Disnardo. I love when we come up with some badass research to support our arguments. Good job on that last one. That clearly shows that the Dolphins defense was a lot better able to handle turnovers by the offense. And it also clearly shows that no matter how much Daunte turned the ball over, their defense was going to give up a lot of points.LOL.....DP the fact is that no matter how black and white things seem to be, still others need to agree or at least be aware of them... at last many, as we, have different opinions and will only see what they want to see...

Now this does not make us right nor make us wrong...just like everyone ...opinionated...:D

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 11:18 PM
Disnardo and kplunk ftw great posts guys enjoyed reading them

Thanks. The reason we look into the numbers so much is simply to back up our arguments and provide some proof rather than just spitting out an opinion. Opinions are nice, but if you can back it up with some facts, they hold a lot more water.

DolfinDave
11-24-2006, 11:20 PM
LOL.....DP the fact is that no matter how black and white things seem to be, still others need to agree or at least be aware of them... at last many, as we, have different opinions and will only see what they want to see...

Now this does not make us right nor make us wrong...just like everyone ...opinionated...:D

Definitely. You don't have to agree with us, but at least acknowledge the facts and argue based on them. Its really hard to argue based on pure opinion and speculation. That will get us nowhere.

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 11:22 PM
These threads are becoming sickening and people should not be looking this much into all of these numbers.at last what do we have to show for proof of them...do we not bleed if we are cut?...do we not cry if we feel sorrow?...do we not repent if we are to apologize?...

At last show us proof!.. and the base of the proof?... at last we have no other recourse...than to dig deep much into these numbers!... :goof:

Disnardo
11-24-2006, 11:26 PM
Only too easy in a bizarro world where a fumble recovered by your own team is a turnover.

137 TDs/124 TOs is my calculation.I just saw this and its really funny....:sidelol:

nice catch HOF...

hof13
11-24-2006, 11:33 PM
I just saw this and its really funny....:sidelol:

nice catch HOF...

I just sweep up the crumbs. :wink:

Thanks for all the time spent doing the in-depth research.

bluehaze
11-25-2006, 12:06 AM
If some of you guys want to focus on sacks and negative plays, lets compare some QBs and their yardages.

Culpepper has started 84 games and has been sacked 249 times for a loss of 1364 yards.

Brady has started 88 games and has been sacked 173 times for a loss of 1093 yards.

Manning has started 168 games and has been sacked 168 times for a loss of 1103 yards.

So Culpepper has lost about 300 more yards on sacks compared to the other two. But lets look at their rushing numbers.



Your math is incorrect, Culpepper has only played half as many gamesas Manning. Culpepper is averaging 3 sacks a game, Manning is averaging 1. If you Double Culpeppers numbers to match the amount of games Manning has started.

Culpepper 168 games = 2728 Yards lost
Manning 168 games = 1103 Yards lost

So Culpepper will have lost 1625 more yards than Manning.

Also that is giving Culpepper the benefit of the doubt because this is prior to the injury. Post Injury he had 21 sacks in 4 games an average of 5.25 sacks a game

For fun, let's see what that works out to in the same amount of games played as Manning? 168 games , 690 sacks = 4514 Yards lost. Compared to Mannings 168 games, 168 sacks =1103 Yards lost. a difference of 3411 more yards lost for Culpepper.

Disnardo
11-25-2006, 12:12 AM
I just sweep up the crumbs. :wink:

Thanks for all the time spent doing the in-depth research.Thanks... it was fun...




Originally Posted by Dolfan984
Disnardo and dplunk ftw great posts guys enjoyed reading them

Thanks I enjoy the research...

and a little extra on Dauntes 5 years in Minny (2000-2004)...

The Offense averaged 39% Run-61% Pass Ratio... Minny seemed to be to pass oriented...

on the contrary Indi over the last 4 years have averaged a 45% Run- 55% Pass ratio...

as I stated, compared to Indi, Minny did not place much effort on their running game...they were more a one dimensional team and as you know those teams don't win unless they have the personnel or the team to do it...

Even Martz and Vermeil had STL in the winning seasons running 43% Run-57% Pass ratio...

Somehow a 42-45% Run ratio seems to work well...the Dolphins have averaged 46% in their winning streak...

Metal Panda
11-25-2006, 12:48 AM
if only Captain EO were here WAUGH WAUGH WAUGUGHGHGGHHG

Aussiefinfan54
11-25-2006, 01:10 AM
yeah joey rocks i hope he stays on as our starter and depending on how culpepper is at the start of the season and the way joey goes in the last few then hopefully trade or just cut culpepper coz of his immense contract.

xflashx
11-25-2006, 01:24 AM
originally posted by ALEX44 -----
Do you know how to read?

Based on touches he averages the same amount of fumbles

Actually I'll make it easier for you to understand in case you still dont

If they were to both touch the ball 100 times they would have the same number of fumbles. However they DONT touch the ball the same amount of times. Daunte due to his rushing attempts touches it far more. Ive done the math a few months ago and it turned out that yes they do in fact fumble the same amount per touch.
originally posted by ALEX44 -----

Hey Alex you know how to do math? LOL. Touch the ball hahahaha. How about this Dauntes rushing attempts lol. Daunte Averages a FUMBLE, without rushing or what not a game dude. peyton manning in his career total has 18 fumbles dude count them 18 out of his 8 year career so far. Now if Daunte averages 1 a game and there are 16 games in 1 count em 1 season, how many does that add up to in his 7 year career if he played every game ALEX44???? Yea you need to "check your work"

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 01:43 AM
Your math is incorrect, Culpepper has only played half as many gamesas Manning. Culpepper is averaging 3 sacks a game, Manning is averaging 1. If you Double Culpeppers numbers to match the amount of games Manning has started.

Culpepper 168 games = 2728 Yards lost
Manning 168 games = 1103 Yards lost

So Culpepper will have lost 1625 more yards than Manning.

Also that is giving Culpepper the benefit of the doubt because this is prior to the injury. Post Injury he had 21 sacks in 4 games an average of 5.25 sacks a game

For fun, let's see what that works out to in the same amount of games played as Manning? 168 games , 690 sacks = 4514 Yards lost. Compared to Mannings 168 games, 168 sacks =1103 Yards lost. a difference of 3411 more yards lost for Culpepper.

That is exactly what I said. Has played in 85 games and has started 84 of them. He has been sacked 249 times for 1364 yards. I got that straight off of nfl.com. Here is the link: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133263

I don't know why you went ahead and averaged his numbers out to show the difference if they played the same amount of games. All I was pointing out was that while Daunte takes a lot of sacks, the amount of yardage he has lost compared very favorably to Brady who played a similar amount of games. I put Manning in there because he doesn't get sacked very often at all. I threw in the rushing yards because I wanted you to see how much yardage Daunte accounts for even with the sacks. He blows away Manning in that area. Daunte averages about 5.3 rushing attempts per game and he averages 5.4 a carry. If you average that out to equal the number of games Manning has started, you have about 1800 more rushing yards for Daunte. So if you combine the projected yardage lost on sacks with the projected yardaged gained in rushing attempts, he comes out on the plus side while Manning and Brady come out negative.

The point I am trying to make here is that no matter what negative attribute you can find in Daunte, I can find a good attribute that can, if not make up for it, soften the blow of the negative one.

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 01:49 AM
originally posted by ALEX44 -----
Do you know how to read?

Based on touches he averages the same amount of fumbles

Actually I'll make it easier for you to understand in case you still dont

If they were to both touch the ball 100 times they would have the same number of fumbles. However they DONT touch the ball the same amount of times. Daunte due to his rushing attempts touches it far more. Ive done the math a few months ago and it turned out that yes they do in fact fumble the same amount per touch.
originally posted by ALEX44 -----

Hey Alex you know how to do math? LOL. Touch the ball hahahaha. How about this Dauntes rushing attempts lol. Daunte Averages a FUMBLE, without rushing or what not a game dude. peyton manning in his career total has 18 fumbles dude count them 18 out of his 8 year career so far. Now if Daunte averages 1 a game and there are 16 games in 1 count em 1 season, how many does that add up to in his 7 year career if he played every game ALEX44???? Yea you need to "check your work"

I am not sure you are following what he was saying about the fumbling. He was saying that Daunte runs with the ball a lot more often than Manning does. Manning averages like right at 1 rushing attempt per game. Daunte averages about 5.3 rushing attempts per game. When you run the ball more often, you are more prone to fumbling. The more rushing attempts any one player has, the more likely he is to fumble. So while Daunte may have been a bit fumble prone, at least part of it was due to the fact that he was running, like a running back would, with the ball more often than probably most QBs.

Vertical Limit
11-25-2006, 01:50 AM
I don't care what Daunte Culpepper did in the past. Fact is, he is injured and he hasn't played in a high level in 2 years, and to expect him to magically play back to this level NEXT year, 3 years seperated from that "high level", is farfetch'd IMO.

Next year, if he still is a Dolphin, he shouldn't be handed the job, he should compete for the starting job. This isn't his team. One team didn't think he was a franchise type QB, why should we?

bluehaze
11-25-2006, 01:56 AM
That is exactly what I said. Has played in 85 games and has started 84 of them. He has been sacked 249 times for 1364 yards. I got that straight off of nfl.com. Here is the link: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133263


You we're comparing Culpepper's total amount of sacks taken in 84 games to Manning's total amount of sacks taken in 168 games. You said Culpepper only lost 300 more yards in the process. When in all actuality it was a difference of 2000-3000 yards in the same amount of games played.

Just wanted to point that out.

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 02:09 AM
I don't care what Daunte Culpepper did in the past. Fact is, he is injured and he hasn't played in a high level in 2 years, and to expect him to magically play back to this level NEXT year, 3 years seperated from that "high level", is farfetch'd IMO.

Next year, if he still is a Dolphin, he shouldn't be handed the job, he should compete for the starting job. This isn't his team. One team didn't think he was a franchise type QB, why should we?

Yeah how is that team doing right now with their 'franchise' QB? They are 4-6, their offense is ranked 27th in points scored, and their franchise QB has 5 TDs to 10 INTs.

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 02:12 AM
You we're comparing Culpepper's total amount of sacks taken in 84 games to Manning's total amount of sacks taken in 168 games. You said Culpepper only lost 300 more yards in the process. When in all actuality it was a difference of 2000-3000 yards in the same amount of games played.

Just wanted to point that out.

Yeah I see what you are saying. I should have compared his total of yards lost in those games with Brady's because they have a similar number of games played. And even though he took more sacks than Brady in those similar amount of games, he didn't loose too many more yards. And I factored in the rushing yards to show one area where Daunte makes up for some of the sacks.

juniorseau55
11-25-2006, 02:17 AM
A bunch of thinks I could chew you out for about this post but here are the quickest options:

Daunte has the support of all the skill players on the offense. He is their leader, you questioning his leadership abilities is completely unbased and ridiculous.

Second: who the hell are you and why do you think it is okay to insult Daunte supporters? Unless you talk to Saban, Pepp and Harrington daily then you have no right to be insulting anybody over their opinion.

I'm the finheaven intimidator. That's who I am and If you don't like my post then don't reply. Pretty simple, I'm not going to support someone that hasn't done anything for our franchise and that is Daunte.

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 02:22 AM
I'm the finheaven intimidator. That's who I am and If you don't like my post then don't reply. Pretty simple, I'm not going to support someone that hasn't done anything for our franchise and that is Daunte.

What exactly has Joey done either? He has won a whole 2 more games than Daunte. And that was while Daunte was hurt and Joey was at 100%. And that was while the defense and the offensive line were playing a lot better when Joey was in there than they were with Daunte in there.

Vertical Limit
11-25-2006, 02:32 AM
Yeah how is that team doing right now with their 'franchise' QB? They are 4-6, their offense is ranked 27th in points scored, and their franchise QB has 5 TDs to 10 INTs.
Minnesota is in a rebuilding year, grooming a future franchise QB who looked pretty good in the preseason named Tavaris Jackson.

Dumping Daunte was the best move that franchise has ever done, as it is proven that franchise was not successful with Daunte Culpepper as their QB. How many seasons with more wins than losses with Culpepper? Oh, just 1? I thought so.

Had Daunte Culpepper actually through the ball away more in the first four games instead of holding it, his misleading completion percentage and QB rating as a Dolphin wouldn't be what it is now.

Getting a 2nd round pick for Daunte Culpepper was a steal for Minnesota. Sure, that second round pick likely doesn't have a future in that team, but they don't have to pay this huge contract we are paying right now to a mediocre QB with fantasy numbers. We sure as hell are paying for it now; the most expensive emergency QB in history.

Metal Panda
11-25-2006, 02:34 AM
I'm the finheaven intimidator.

:sidelol:

pwn3dyo
11-25-2006, 02:36 AM
First, I'm not a Joey hatter, or a Daunte supporter. However, the Daunte Culpepper in the dolphins uniform this year, was nothing like him in a Vikings uniform. he had much less arm strength, mobility, and strength (in general). If he can get that back to his old form, i think he will be the future for the francise. If not, then maybe Joey will be the future (who knows)

Regardless, us Dolphin fans should be rooting for BOTH. I know i am :)

Metal Panda
11-25-2006, 02:38 AM
I still think it's funny that everybody's comparing a gimpy Culpepper with a non-gimpy Harrington.

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 02:39 AM
Minnesota is in a rebuilding year, grooming a future franchise QB who looked pretty good in the preseason named Tavaris Jackson.

Dumping Daunte was the best move that franchise has ever done, as it is proven that franchise was not successful with Daunte Culpepper as their QB. How many seasons with more wins than losses with Culpepper? Oh, just 1? I thought so.

Had Daunte Culpepper actually through the ball away more in the first four games instead of holding it, his misleading completion percentage and QB rating as a Dolphin wouldn't be what it is now.

Getting a 2nd round pick for Daunte Culpepper was a steal for Minnesota. Sure, that second round pick likely doesn't have a future in that team, but they don't have to pay this huge contract we are paying right now to a mediocre QB with fantasy numbers. We sure as hell are paying for it now; the most expensive emergency QB in history.

So it is all of Daunte's fault that they didn't win more games. So it is his fault that their defenses never ranked higher than 23rd in points allowed. Daunte helps the offense rank in the top 10 in points scored every year except for one and it is his fault they didn't win more. What in the hell is a QB supposed to do besides put points on the board? Daunte helped their offense do that at a pretty good pace while there. I am almost done arguing with people who just blindly blame a team's win/loss record on QBs. It is absolutely ridiculous and shows lack of understanding of one of the most basic aspects about the sport of football, which is that it is a TEAM game.

DolfinDave
11-25-2006, 02:42 AM
I still think it's funny that everybody's comparing a gimpy Culpepper with a non-gimpy Harrington.

Yeah that gimpiness is why he didn't have the same arm strength and mobility he had before. I would just as soon not discuss Daunte until he is healthy but people have to keep bringing it up and saying stuff like, 'Joey is the franchise Qb or is the starter for next year'. And I can't help but respond.