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Ekinger
11-26-2006, 10:47 PM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year?

Alkahall
11-26-2006, 10:48 PM
New thread. NEXT!

CRAZYDOLFAN305
11-26-2006, 10:54 PM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year?

I feel like I just got dumb by reading this..:shakeno: :shakeno:

bluehaze
11-26-2006, 10:59 PM
This thread gets 1 star! :lol:

Ekinger
11-26-2006, 11:02 PM
Yep, obviously an awful question. The guy has now had a hard time getting us started 2 years in a row. It's possible he'll always struggle at the beginning of the season and if he does but we make the playoffs do we stick with him? Maybe you all think yes. Personally, if we lose 5 out of 8 to start every season, I don't want him whether we make the playoffs or not.

Too much effort is wasted to make the playoffs year in and year out if we have to dig ourselves out of a deep hole.

FemaleFinFan
11-26-2006, 11:05 PM
I feel like I just got dumb by reading this..:shakeno: :shakeno:

I didn't know dumb was contagious, but I'm starting to feel that way too!

steveincolorado
11-26-2006, 11:09 PM
We have to give coach Saban time to bring in his type of players for his systems. Without going into much detail, here's briefly what he's got to deal with right now.

Very poor drafting in the past, by the previous staff. I did a thread about this several weeks ago and to just sum that up, we only have something like 18 players out of like 50 or so that we drafted over the past 7-8 years.

Over paying of players by the previous staff. The Dolphins were salary cap hell over the past several years and after this season, should be in great shape. This is also why he signed a lot of free agents to 1-2 year deals.

I believe that coach Saban (IMO) should be given 4-5 years to work his magic for the Dolphins.

TampaFinsFan01
11-26-2006, 11:09 PM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year?

Bad post for several reasons.

One, its a sore subject. You are going to be very unpopular very quickly kicking Saban around here. And you might not last too long. Saban enjoys a cult status here, and it has been made abundantly clear we are not to question the job he does or his status.

Two, your post is full of assumptions. Its starts with "if we win out". Lets wait and see if we win out before we speculate on that. Then, you jump to us winning out and "losing in the first round". Two huge assumptions. Then you have us starting slow next season and rebounding to make the playoffs and yet losing again.

This whole post is "hypothetical hell".

If I could offer you advice, its to deal with what we are. What we are is 5-6. We are 5-6 because we weren't prepared to start the season at QB or Oline.

To me, holding someone responsible for those two glaring errors is fair, but as I said earlier, you won't gain traction here. Saban still holds alot of clout amongst these fans and there is nothing you can say to change minds.

I have resigned myself that Saban will be here as long as he wants and he will be welcomed by the fans until he decides to leave. Saban is a smart guy, very organized and detailed oriented and he was an outstanding college coach. That has bought him tenured status in Miami, meaning he leaves when he wants...he will not be driven out by message board rants, media criticism, or his record.

And I'm fine with it. I just hope that somehow we get our ship righted. Either Saban figures it out, or it happens by accident. He is our coach for the next five or six years. Its just the way it is.

Ekinger
11-26-2006, 11:19 PM
Bad post for several reasons.

One, its a sore subject. You are going to be very unpopular very quickly kicking Saban around here. And you might not last too long. Saban enjoys a cult status here, and it has been made abundantly clear we are not to question the job he does or his status.

Two, your post is full of assumptions. Its starts with "if we win out". Lets wait and see if we win out before we speculate on that. Then, you jump to us winning out and "losing in the first round". Two huge assumptions. Then you have us starting slow next season and rebounding to make the playoffs and yet losing again.

Frankly, I could care less who likes me and who doesn't. If anyone is stupid enough to waste there time and effort responding to a thread they don't like by sayind it's dumb, then that's there issue. I read threads that don't interest me or I think are pointless all the time. I don't respond to them.

One of the people criticising me here actually wondered if Chambers lack of production had something to do with the receivers coach? Come on.

Of course there are tons of ifs and it's hypothetical. But, having started his first two seasons exactly the same way, it's a hypothetical that has some probability. Not high probability, but some probability none the less. I want to know how long of a leash most of the readers have with regard to Saban.

Sounds to me like most are very satisfied with his performance. The more we win now and the less likely it becomes we'll make the playoffs, the more I recognize how poorly coached we were to start this season and the more upset I get. Every time the Jets win, it makes our chances even less likely.

Vertical Limit
11-26-2006, 11:29 PM
It takes time to clean up a mess and rebuild a franchise that has been lost since Don Shula left us. Nick Saban has the blueprint to a long term project, not an instant fix.

ChambersWI
11-26-2006, 11:34 PM
Saban will get all 5 years, unless the team regresses dramatically before that.

Remember, Saban inherited a team with an aging defense, a below average offense, and only 2 good looking o-linemen (Hadnot and Carey).

Saban has gotten good production from his first draft class, with only having 6 picks. This past year, he again had 6 picks, but only 2 first day picks.

When you get a coach like Saban, who not only admits he's going to reshape the roster, but also brings a completely new system, you've got to give him a couple of years.

Also, you will always see us go after a lot of lesser FAs each year to get cheap veterans to hold the fort until we can get the young guys that fit the system. Carter, Traylor,Holliday have worked from last year's FA, and W Allen,Goodman, and Hill have worked this year.

When Wayne Huizenga hired Nick, he admitted that we needed to rebuild. If a coach admits to rebuilding, and hires a new coach to do so, you stay with that coach until he gives you a reason to fire him.

We've started off shakey, but we've got a different defense from last year, and also a different offense. After a couple rough weeks, Our defense looks better than it has since 2000.

Ekinger
11-26-2006, 11:38 PM
I agree with all of that and I think that's what's supposed to happen as well.

My question is, what if it doesn't? What if we continue to struggle the start of every season?

elandre
11-26-2006, 11:38 PM
Give the guy some time ppl

Its only the second year.. He has been tryin to move us in the right direction

we go from having our secondary in the 30+ age group to early to late 20's

Next stop im sure will be the Dline which already has been lookin good with Roth.. We draft a good DT or LB were going to be set for alot of years :D

vinivedivichi
11-26-2006, 11:40 PM
Bad post for several reasons.

One, its a sore subject. You are going to be very unpopular very quickly kicking Saban around here. And you might not last too long. Saban enjoys a cult status here, and it has been made abundantly clear we are not to question the job he does or his status.

Two, your post is full of assumptions. Its starts with "if we win out". Lets wait and see if we win out before we speculate on that. Then, you jump to us winning out and "losing in the first round". Two huge assumptions. Then you have us starting slow next season and rebounding to make the playoffs and yet losing again.

This whole post is "hypothetical hell".

If I could offer you advice, its to deal with what we are. What we are is 5-6. We are 5-6 because we weren't prepared to start the season at QB or Oline.

To me, holding someone responsible for those two glaring errors is fair, but as I said earlier, you won't gain traction here. Saban still holds alot of clout amongst these fans and there is nothing you can say to change minds.

I have resigned myself that Saban will be here as long as he wants and he will be welcomed by the fans until he decides to leave. Saban is a smart guy, very organized and detailed oriented and he was an outstanding college coach. That has bought him tenured status in Miami, meaning he leaves when he wants...he will not be driven out by message board rants, media criticism, or his record.

And I'm fine with it. I just hope that somehow we get our ship righted. Either Saban figures it out, or it happens by accident. He is our coach for the next five or six years. Its just the way it is.

You are basically right, but it's not irrational at all to give a guy with Saban's track record and obvious football intelligence due time to turn around what was, by all accounts, a mess. Has he made SOME mistakes since he got here.....sure, but everyone makes mistakes. To turn this team into a SB contendor in year two he would have had to do everything right. What's more important than getting caught up in whether he started the right QB or if he paid enough attention in the offseason to the OL is the larger picture in where this team is headed. He is systematically overhauling our roster with young, cheap, and talented players that should be around for a while. I think to harp on the DC/Brees decision or whether he beefed up the O-line enough is somewhat unfair.

As to the original question in the thread, as was mentioned earlier there are just too many "ifs". One has to assume that the enormous amount of turnover both on the coaching staff as well as the roster has greatly contributed to our slow starts the last couple of years. I think with every year Saban stays on the job there will be more continuity and less turnover, which ultimately will lead to more success in the early going. If you look to the Patriots as a model, I seem to remember them having some early season struggles as well in the beginning of the Belicheck era. I seriously doubt this is a problem in a year or two.

Coral Reefer
11-26-2006, 11:42 PM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year?

Something we'll always have problems with?

Pointless drivel.

ChambersWI
11-26-2006, 11:46 PM
I agree with all of that and I think that's what's supposed to happen as well.

My question is, what if it doesn't? What if we continue to struggle the start of every season?

if we struggle early, but finish strong, I see no problem (as long as we don't have to win out every year to even think about playoffs).

Wildbill3
11-26-2006, 11:52 PM
Consider this a blanket warning guys, you dont' like a thread don't post, you don't agree with a thread write something constructive to debate it. leave out the borderline personal attacks.

GoonBoss
11-27-2006, 12:05 AM
I feel that any coach should get at least four years.

Anthony D.
11-27-2006, 12:30 AM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year?Get over it!:infins:

jguig
11-27-2006, 07:06 AM
Next time we should get a coach who has a magic wand. That way all he needs to do is wave his wand and we will win. That will make the bad players suddenly good and we don't need to go through growing pains associated with rebuilding a team.

SCall13
11-27-2006, 07:28 AM
These questions are redundant, but there is no use going off the deep end and insulting the guy. He asked for our opinions on the situation. It's a legitimate question: What if, year after year, we're slow starters. Then we get hot, win just enough to get into the playoffs and lose. IS this acceptable? How long do we say it's ok and how many years will Saban get the benefit of the doubt?
Anyway, the poster asked what he felt like was a legit question. And instead of answering it, you bash him and make him feel like an idiot. That's just wrong. It isn't like everyone else hasn't come up with some things that made others say "huh?", "what?". Instead of going off on the guy, why didn't you just not say anything at all? I KNOW WHY: Because it made you feel like you were big shots dawging out someone else. Get over yourselves. Please. You make yourselves look bad doing this.

That's my rant. Thanks

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 09:35 AM
I think with every year Saban stays on the job there will be more continuity and less turnover, which ultimately will lead to more success in the early going. If you look to the Patriots as a model, I seem to remember them having some early season struggles as well in the beginning of the Belicheck era. I seriously doubt this is a problem in a year or two.

Unfortunately, Saban has less continuity and less turnover from last year to this. Had the O-coordinator been Linehan like, our offense certainly wouldn't have struggled nearly as much as it has all season. Which begs the question, why did he bring in Mularkey? Furthermore, the biggest problem with the entire team was the 2ndary. We obviously had the talent to be competitive there and the 2ndary is Saban's supposed genius. If anything that should have been the easiest part of the team for him to get rolling and it took him seven games. Why? My question is cause for concern. As I've said all along, I do believe Saban is smart and talented enough to make it work but if it takes him 1/3 to 1/2 a season each year to to get that to happen I don't know that he's better than anyone else we've had since Shula.

Right now it feels like he's the best we've had since Shula, but what worries me the most is whether that's partly due to the hype or because he's actually deserving.

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 09:45 AM
These questions are redundant, but there is no use going off the deep end and insulting the guy. He asked for our opinions on the situation. It's a legitimate question: What if, year after year, we're slow starters. Then we get hot, win just enough to get into the playoffs and lose. IS this acceptable? How long do we say it's ok and how many years will Saban get the benefit of the doubt?
Anyway, the poster asked what he felt like was a legit question. And instead of answering it, you bash him and make him feel like an idiot. That's just wrong. It isn't like everyone else hasn't come up with some things that made others say "huh?", "what?". Instead of going off on the guy, why didn't you just not say anything at all? I KNOW WHY: Because it made you feel like you were big shots dawging out someone else. Get over yourselves. Please. You make yourselves look bad doing this.

That's my rant. Thanks

I appreciate the backup here but it's really alright. The only thing that bothers me is getting personally attacked yet being held accountable the one time I've done it out of frustration of the continuous attacks against me.

But I'm over it now. It's the same few people that find the need to put someone else down because they aren't creative enough to come up with an original thought on their own.

Most of you get what I'm saying here. This is supposed to be a forum about the Dolphins, good or bad. I'm not bashing Saban. I don't think that 2 years is enough to indict Saban on. I think he's been much better than we've had and done more good than bad since he's been with us. But he's started each season exactly the same way. This year he made some major offseason blunders in Mularkey and not getting the secondary prepared the way he should have. Offensive mistake.....ok, he's not an offensive guy per se and we don't know what the powers that be were saying with regard to Mularkey. However the secondary was the largest issue on the team for weeks and that's his supposed area of expertise. That is a cause for concern and begs the question, how long do we put up with slow starts season after season if we don't get anywhere in the playoffs or have to win out just to make them?

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 09:59 AM
I want to know how long of a leash most of the readers have with regard to Saban.

Sounds to me like most are very satisfied with his performance. The more we win now and the less likely it becomes we'll make the playoffs, the more I recognize how poorly coached we were to start this season and the more upset I get. Every time the Jets win, it makes our chances even less likely.

You're preaching to the choir. In many cities, being unprepared to start the season and losing 1-6 would draw some ire. And people here do care, but they just blame Wannstedt. Or Speilman. Saban gets 4-5 years. Poor Mike Mularkey on the other hand....he's only been here for less than one year and his head is on the chopping block.

As for how long a leash Saban has...I'd say if by 2011 we are still lingering around .500, some people will probably start to get restless. But right now, hes in the enviable "its takes time to clean up a mess" classification, even though two of the biggest messes (Culpepper and LJ Shelton) were his own.

Saban has more job security in Miami than just about any other coach in the NFL.

vinivedivichi
11-27-2006, 10:01 AM
I would just not worry about it until it officially becomes a trend. There are legitimate reasons for some confusion early in the year for a new coaching staff with new players...those reasons won't exist a couple of years down the road. If we are horrible for 5-6 games next year, then it's something to legitimately think about.

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 10:05 AM
You're preaching to the choir. In many cities, being unprepared to start the season and losing 1-6 would draw some ire. And people here do care, but they just blame Wannstedt. Or Speilman. Saban gets 4-5 years. Poor Mike Mularkey on the other hand....he's only been here for less than one year and his head is on the chopping block.

As for how long a leash Saban has...I'd say if by 2011 we are still lingering around .500, some people will probably start to get restless. But right now, hes in the enviable "its takes time to clean up a mess" classification, even though two of the biggest messes (Culpepper and LJ Shelton) were his own.

Saban has more job security in Miami than just about any other coach in the NFL.

It seems to me this suggests two things. First that you think the offense was the biggest problem during the losing streak. I don't see that as the case at all, sans Detroit, it hasn't performed all that much better. The secondary has improved the most by far.

Secondly, you are suggesting that most fans or posters on this board are completely blind to criticism and refuse to fault anyone that the media has deemed worthy?

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 10:08 AM
I would just not worry about it until it officially becomes a trend. There are legitimate reasons for some confusion early in the year for a new coaching staff with new players...those reasons won't exist a couple of years down the road. If we are horrible for 5-6 games next year, then it's something to legitimately think about.

Agreed, but that's exactly why I started the thread. It was a what if. Furthermore, Saban didn't get the 2ndary properly prepared and refused to shuffle his players for weeks. That refusal likely cost us the season. That shows a definite chink. Maybe he learned from it, time will tell and I hope and think he did. But the if I ask isn't out of the question.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 10:10 AM
I agree with all of that and I think that's what's supposed to happen as well.

My question is, what if it doesn't? What if we continue to struggle the start of every season?

You are not paying attention...If what you are wanting people to give you is a scenario in which they will Dump Saban, you are going to be highly disappointed. We could go 0-16 next year and he would still need more time. It would be Capers fault, Mularkey's fault, Joey Harrington's fault, the water boy...

Saban is Untouchable. And this is after starting one season 3-7 and one 1-6 (wth us playing our easiest part of the schedule). All we can do is hope for the best. I'm just telling you this because I don't want you to have to go through the frustrations and warnings that I went through. Saban is not to be criticized.

When we started the season un-prepared, I foolishly criticized Saban...nothing personal, all job related. I listed the FA mistakes that HE made, the poor draft trades that HE made, and how several other coaches had taken worse or nearly as bad of teams as we had in 04 and made the playoffs in two seasons. That was foolish to do, and I regret it.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 10:13 AM
You are basically right, but it's not irrational at all to give a guy with Saban's track record and obvious football intelligence due time to turn around what was, by all accounts, a mess. Has he made SOME mistakes since he got here.....sure, but everyone makes mistakes. To turn this team into a SB contendor in year two he would have had to do everything right. What's more important than getting caught up in whether he started the right QB or if he paid enough attention in the offseason to the OL is the larger picture in where this team is headed. He is systematically overhauling our roster with young, cheap, and talented players that should be around for a while. I think to harp on the DC/Brees decision or whether he beefed up the O-line enough is somewhat unfair.

As to the original question in the thread, as was mentioned earlier there are just too many "ifs". One has to assume that the enormous amount of turnover both on the coaching staff as well as the roster has greatly contributed to our slow starts the last couple of years. I think with every year Saban stays on the job there will be more continuity and less turnover, which ultimately will lead to more success in the early going. If you look to the Patriots as a model, I seem to remember them having some early season struggles as well in the beginning of the Belicheck era. I seriously doubt this is a problem in a year or two.

Hey, I've been warned and I now realize that I was foolish to be critical of Saban. There will be no more criticisms of him from me until he has been given a full five years. I was totally reactionary. Everything you said in your post praising Saban, I agree with.

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 10:20 AM
Hey, I've been warned and I now realize that I was foolish to be critical of Saban. There will be no more criticisms of him from me until he has been given a full five years. I was totally reactionary. Everything you said in your post praising Saban, I agree with.

Are you saying you care about the people that got mad at you for being critical? What good is the board if we can't be critical and analyze what's actually going on?

Unfortunately I didn't jump onto the board until the end of the losing streak when I couldn't take it anymore. I would have concurred with you from the get go if you were critical of some of Saban's mistakes.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 10:27 AM
It seems to me this suggests two things. First that you think the offense was the biggest problem during the losing streak. I don't see that as the case at all, sans Detroit, it hasn't performed all that much better. The secondary has improved the most by far.

Secondly, you are suggesting that most fans or posters on this board are completely blind to criticism and refuse to fault anyone that the media has deemed worthy?

I wouldn't say the entire offense was the biggest problem, but I would say that Pass Protection was. If we protect the passer better against the Bills and Texans, I think we win those games. If we win those games, we are right in the middle of the playoff hunt. Against GB, no one was worth a damn.

As for your second point, you are going to find out if you haven't been reading this forum for long....The idea of holding someone people are attached to accountable seems to be a foreign concept to many people. Thats one reason I don't grow attached to players or coaches. I wasn't attached to Shula or Marino. When Shula sucked in 1995, I wanted his sorry arse canned. When Marino sucked in 1999, I didn't want him to return in 2000. I want what is best for the Fins, and I don't care who has to come in or who has to go to make this team improved.

People here like Saban. He gets a pass. They don't like Mularkey. He needs to go (or that was the case when we were 1-6).

Saban is not going to be fired. I know this. He may indeed turn out to be a good coach. But starting out 1-6 is not good. There is nothing good about it. Esp when we have the oldest starting defense in the NFL. Hopefully we run the table, make the playoffs and these guys all come back and get us ready for a championship run next year.

Reluctantly, I say...Viva Saban.

Rick 1966
11-27-2006, 10:27 AM
I appreciate Saban's coaching ability, but I think his personell decisions have been highly suspect. Choosing Culpepper over Brees may wind up being considered one of the biggest blunders in the history of the NFL before all is said and done. Allowing Culpepper to continue as the starter after it became clear he wasn't ready probably cost us a shot at the playoffs. The free agent defensive backs we signed were sub-mediocre and it took him forever to let Yeremiah Bell start. Drafting Jason Allen was a mistake---he may turn out to be a good player, but he wasn't the best available by any means and it took him over half a season to even get playing time.
Saban is a very good coach, but he needs a good personell man to keep him on the straight and narrow in the offseason.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 10:33 AM
Are you saying you care about the people that got mad at you for being critical? What good is the board if we can't be critical and analyze what's actually going on?

Unfortunately I didn't jump onto the board until the end of the losing streak when I couldn't take it anymore. I would have concurred with you from the get go if you were critical of some of Saban's mistakes.

I don't care personally if people disagree with me. But I was told I would be banned if I continued to "bash" Saban. And I didn't think I was bashing him, I was, IMO, talking about his performance. I didn't talk about him personally. I just thought his coaching and personnel decisions left some things to be desired.

I really wasn't trying to be provocative or disagreeable. I like what you said about this being a forum and being a free exchange of ideas. I agree with that. I admire your independence. Hopefully, things go well for you here.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 10:36 AM
I appreciate Saban's coaching ability, but I think his personell decisions have been highly suspect. Choosing Culpepper over Brees may wind up being considered one of the biggest blunders in the history of the NFL before all is said and done. Allowing Culpepper to continue as the starter after it became clear he wasn't ready probably cost us a shot at the playoffs. The free agent defensive backs we signed were sub-mediocre and it took him forever to let Yeremiah Bell start. Drafting Jason Allen was a mistake---he may turn out to be a good player, but he wasn't the best available by any means and it took him over half a season to even get playing time.
Saban is a very good coach, but he needs a good personell man to keep him on the straight and narrow in the offseason.

Every MB should have someone like Rick on it. This post is unemotional, concise, and lucid. As usual Rick, you are 100% correct.

Shamboubou
11-27-2006, 10:46 AM
[/quote]Saban has less continuity and less turnover from last year to this. [/quote]

It has been fairly close every year the amount of turnover. The team struggled in the beginning just like last year. You can ask most players it takes a pretty good time for a team to get an identity.

[/quote]Which begs the question, why did he bring in Mularkey? [/quote]

MM had pretty good success as an OC before in his carreer. What would make anybody think that he lost that? Then lets look at this aspect, anybody would agree that it takes an extreme amount of talent to earn a head coaching job in the NFL. With the hiring of MM we just aquired a ton of talent at both cordinator jobs. Both Capers and Mularkey are head coach material.

[/quote]Furthermore, the biggest problem with the entire team was the 2ndary. We obviously had the talent to be competitive there and the 2ndary is Saban's supposed genius. If anything that should have been the easiest part of the team for him to get rolling and it took him seven games. Why?[/quote]

Our secondary hasn't look half as bad as what most people thought that they would. They have been ranked pretty high in pass defense and had a streak of quite a few attempts without a touchdown. I will degress though that they did look like they gave up the big play when it counted in games early in the season. They would give up a lot of 3rd down conversions. They did though have a streak through the first 3 or 4 games of not allowing a 1st down on a 3 and 10+. Which is quite an accomplishment. The secondary though has looked very good for these past few games and you can tell by the way our sack total has went up.

[/quote]My question is cause for concern. As I've said all along, I do believe Saban is smart and talented enough to make it work but if it takes him 1/3 to 1/2 a season each year to to get that to happen I don't know that he's better than anyone else we've had since Shula.[/quote]

I agree that it sucks that it takes a big game for us to turn the season around, but I really look for that to change next year. I dont think we are going to see as many changes in the starting team as what we have. This next year our secondary will probably be about the same the D Line may have a younger DT, the LB core will be mostly the same. Offensivley I think we might see DC as QB, maybe a new WR and a new OT or OG.

[/quote]Right now it feels like he's the best we've had since Shula, but what worries me the most is whether that's partly due to the hype or because he's actually deserving.[/quote]

I think most people like what they see out of Saban. I love the fact that we have a coach that doesn't bash his players to the media because they had a bad game. He says they are responsible for their play, but every loss he takes responsibilty for. He addresses his problems personally with players and doesn't start media wars with his own team. I like the tough mentality that he has brough to this team. I dont advocate hurting players on purpose at all, but I have noticed this year how many players that we have just knocked out and hurt. Not like freak accidents, but just hitting them so hard we knock them out of the game. I love that we play agressive and hit like the game was made to be played. I really believe that Saban is getting the right attitude players in here, and he is bringing the right attitude towards this franchise. There are teams right now that are scared to play us, and they should be.

vinivedivichi
11-27-2006, 11:01 AM
I appreciate Saban's coaching ability, but I think his personell decisions have been highly suspect. Choosing Culpepper over Brees may wind up being considered one of the biggest blunders in the history of the NFL before all is said and done. Allowing Culpepper to continue as the starter after it became clear he wasn't ready probably cost us a shot at the playoffs. The free agent defensive backs we signed were sub-mediocre and it took him forever to let Yeremiah Bell start. Drafting Jason Allen was a mistake---he may turn out to be a good player, but he wasn't the best available by any means and it took him over half a season to even get playing time.
Saban is a very good coach, but he needs a good personell man to keep him on the straight and narrow in the offseason.

I disagree about personnel decisions...if you are gonna evaluate his personnel handlings, look at them as a whole. His first two drafts have been very solid. I know some people can't comprehend this, but the fact is you don't draft 6 starters every year; Crowder, Roth, Daniels, Brown, Toledo, Hagan, and Allen will be on this team for a long time. Look at our previous 4 or 5 drafts and tell me how good that is.

Also, we have gone from salary cap hell to having some room to make moves.

IMO Saban has done a good job personnel-wise. Was C-Pep over Brees a mistake? Probably. Don't tell me that Jason Allen was a mistake though just because it took a year for him to get on the field; that very logic shows how short-sighted you are. Saban is methodically building this team to be a long-term contendor, and at times, that means sacrificing short term success.

vinivedivichi
11-27-2006, 11:15 AM
Hey, I've been warned and I now realize that I was foolish to be critical of Saban. There will be no more criticisms of him from me until he has been given a full five years. I was totally reactionary. Everything you said in your post praising Saban, I agree with.
You miss the point. It's not that some of your criticisms aren't valid, it's that they ignore the whole picture.

I think, to be fair in criticism, you have to put everything in context. In general terms, Saban inherited an old, overpaid, undisciplined, underachieving team. In two years we have gotten younger, cheaper, and we are showing signs of being a well-coached team. I don't see the point of micro-analyzing every move when it's clear the ship is headed in the right direction, but I don't really see a problem in that. What I do think is wrong is holding him to unreasonable standards and then jumping to conclusions based upon the fact that he hasn't been unable to attain those standards. He's not a bad coach because we were 9-7 in his first year or because we will end up around there in his second year. He's not a bad GM because we haven't drafted 12 starters since he took over.

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 11:23 AM
I don't care personally if people disagree with me. But I was told I would be banned if I continued to "bash" Saban. And I didn't think I was bashing him, I was, IMO, talking about his performance. I didn't talk about him personally. I just thought his coaching and personnel decisions left some things to be desired.

I really wasn't trying to be provocative or disagreeable. I like what you said about this being a forum and being a free exchange of ideas. I agree with that. I admire your independence. Hopefully, things go well for you here.

If you got banned for being critical, good riddance to this board. There are other boards and other places you can go to voice your opinions about football and/or the Dolphins. Mediocrity at best is all that can be expected if no one is ever held accountible.

I will say this. When a guy like Dan Marino has lost it, he gets a bye in my opinion. He was the greatest pure passer in the history of the NFL. Manning is great but he'll never be able to thread the needle like Dan did in triple coverage. A guy like that comes around once in a lifetime, maybe even a century. You let him come back even if he isn't going to give you a legitimate chance at a superbowl simply because he is who he is and half the Dolphins fans were introduced to the Dolphins entirely because of Dan. Other than that I agree with you. Shula had lost his ability to be a top contender, he should have retired or been replaced. These guys have every opportunity to be involved and they certainly could continue to be valuable assetts to the team in one way or another just not running the whole show.

phishfan4life
11-27-2006, 11:31 AM
You're preaching to the choir. In many cities, being unprepared to start the season and losing 1-6 would draw some ire. And people here do care, but they just blame Wannstedt. Or Speilman. Saban gets 4-5 years. Poor Mike Mularkey on the other hand....he's only been here for less than one year and his head is on the chopping block.

As for how long a leash Saban has...I'd say if by 2011 we are still lingering around .500, some people will probably start to get restless. But right now, hes in the enviable "its takes time to clean up a mess" classification, even though two of the biggest messes (Culpepper and LJ Shelton) were his own.

Saban has more job security in Miami than just about any other coach in the NFL.

This thread is completely hypothetical, which makes it very hard to argue any point, but kudos to everyone on here for trying. The thing that makes me scratch my head about your particular post Tampafinsfan, is that you call Culpepper & LJ Shelton the biggest messes. What about the messes that required Saban to go after these two guys? And I wouldn't call Shelton a mess now that he was moved to guard, and Culpepper hasn't played healthy yet.

With that said, hypothetically, if we start next season 1-6 again...I will be angry....but if we start next season with another OC, it's possible. We need less turnover in key areas next year to start with the success we want. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of Mularckey, but we need to build on the success we have had ending this season, not rip it apart and start over again...IMHO.

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 11:31 AM
You miss the point. It's not that some of your criticisms aren't valid, it's that they ignore the whole picture.

I think, to be fair in criticism, you have to put everything in context. In general terms, Saban inherited an old, overpaid, undisciplined, underachieving team. In two years we have gotten younger, cheaper, and we are showing signs of being a well-coached team. I don't see the point of micro-analyzing every move when it's clear the ship is headed in the right direction, but I don't really see a problem in that. What I do think is wrong is holding him to unreasonable standards and then jumping to conclusions based upon the fact that he has been unable to attain those standards. He's not a bad coach because we were 9-7 in his first year or because we will end up around there in his second year. He's not a bad GM because we haven't drafted 12 starters since he took over.

This is the kind of post I find extremely confusing. His first year, he was nothing short of brilliant. Things started to work and he kept them working. This year, we were short of money but had just come off the best draft in recent Dolphin history in terms of number and potential quality of picks. The offense should have easily replicated the end of last years performance. Easily. A 50% Culpepper and/or JH are nearly as good if not slighly better than Frerotte in terms of all around ability. That didn't happen. His baby is the secondary. It's what he played and what he was a genius at in college.

That was the weakest part of the team by far. If a secondary lets up 2-3 game breaking plays a game, they are terrible and you aren't going to win many games. There is absolutely no reason it should have taken 7 games to figure out what needed to be fixed. Especially with how minor the moves were to get the 2ndary fixed and the team rolling (again this had little or nothing to do with the offense). If we win the to battle and or score on d our offense has to do little more than capitalize on redzone defensive placement and not screw up.

The guy is paid in enormous amount of money. If anyone should be held under the highest powered microscope it's this guy. Expecting an improvement from one season to the next isn't unreasonable in any way. We were flat out awful the first 7 games of the season. We were arguably the worst team in the league, it's the worst Dolphins performance I've ever witnessed in 26 years. How is expecting something more than that and a quicker fix unreasonable?

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 11:41 AM
With that said, hypothetically, if we start next season 1-6 again...I will be angry....but if we start next season with another OC, it's possible. We need less turnover in key areas next year to start with the success we want. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of Mularckey, but we need to build on the success we have had ending this season, not rip it apart and start over again...IMHO.

Of course it's hypothetical, that's the whole point. Isn't any thread about JH amazing success and whether it continue hypothetical? Or how about the Dolphins shot at the playoffs? Pretty much hypothetical as well. Many ifs have to occur for either of those questions to be answered.

The Mularkey offense hasn't worked much of anywhere. The Steelers were a decent offensive team but didn't win a superbowl until long after Mularkey was gone and they got a qb that could make plays downfield. He was pretty awful as a head coach of the Bills and Losman and the offense seem to be better off without him.

I've never understood taking a ball control offensive minded guy when the head coaches specialty is defense. You need creativity on offense. Can you imagine if Andy Reid were our O coordinator or Brian Billick. Being a ball control offense takes absolutely no offensive genius what so ever. You find yourself a power back and pound the ball as much as possible. Unfortunately if you are behind and your defense isn't one of the best in the league, it doesn't work. The guy just isn't good and there was absolutely nothing in his past that suggested coming to the Dolphins was going to make our offense as good or better than it was. Why wouldn't you replace Mularkey with someone more creative like Linehan? There had to be someone out there, someone with a really creative mind for offense.

SHEDDAWG DOLFAN
11-27-2006, 11:50 AM
Saban is the best thing we've had since Shula....No doubt...How can you coach dropped balls and penalties? They were the reason for the slow start...THe team seems like its coming together pretty good now.....

Question? Why is it that when the entire team and coaching staff believes in the head coach, and the system he has implemented, some fools think they know whats best for this team.....Remember who we had her for the last number of years!!!! Give the man a little time....He'll clean up the mess left by that other chump....The same can be said for ppl calling for any players heads

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 11:53 AM
How can you coach dropped balls and penalties? They were the reason for the slow start...

Question? Why is it that when the entire team and coaching staff believes in the head coach, and the system he has implemented, some fools think they know whats best for this team.....Remember who we had her for the last number of years!!!! Give the man a little time....He'll clean up the mess left by that other chump....The same can be said for ppl calling for any players heads

Penalties are entirely about coaching. The dropped balls had nothing to do with giving up 21 points or more a game on defense.

Maybe when a team starts 1-6 against awful competition people start to wonder if the coach, staff and team know what's best for them.

Ekinger
11-27-2006, 12:11 PM
[/quote]
I love the fact that we have a coach that doesn't bash his players to the media because they had a bad game. He says they are responsible for their play, but every loss he takes responsibilty for. [/quote]

This is an area I think you are very mistaken. One of the reasons I started to criticise him was because of his refusal to take undiffused blame for the teams riduculously poor start. He never once said he was embarrassed that he didn't prepare the team as well as he should have and he got outcoached. His statements always started off with some accountibility but he always managed to turn it away in an offhanded sort of way.

Before the bye week he said something to the effect of, for the team, the fans and the organization I feel like I should be here 24 hours a day the whole break, BUT I don't know that would make a difference. Which suggests he felt there wasn't much more he felt he could do. I truly believe he bought into his own hype a little too much and don't know whether anyone in his position wouldn't by into it a bit.

Other comments he made. When asked if he or the team was to blame for the loss. I can't win if I answer that question....so I won't answer it at all. Of course you can win in answering that question. After yesterdays ridiculous Pittsburgh performance Cowher said he was embarrassed, outplayed and outcoached and it all starts with him.....he was the most to blame. I don't love Cowher, always thought he was a good coach but a bad playoff coach and frankly I think 05' Pitt was probably the worst team in NFL history to win a superbowl, but I like the way he takes blame. He takes it as he should. Saban never did that, always some sort of a But or a way to diffuse the blame.

Rick 1966
11-27-2006, 12:50 PM
I disagree about personnel decisions...if you are gonna evaluate his personnel handlings, look at them as a whole. His first two drafts have been very solid. I know some people can't comprehend this, but the fact is you don't draft 6 starters every year; Crowder, Roth, Daniels, Brown, Toledo, Hagan, and Allen will be on this team for a long time. Look at our previous 4 or 5 drafts and tell me how good that is.

Also, we have gone from salary cap hell to having some room to make moves.

IMO Saban has done a good job personnel-wise. Was C-Pep over Brees a mistake? Probably. Don't tell me that Jason Allen was a mistake though just because it took a year for him to get on the field; that very logic shows how short-sighted you are. Saban is methodically building this team to be a long-term contendor, and at times, that means sacrificing short term success.


Sorry, but that's just excuse-making of the highest caliber. Many other teams' first round picks have started or at least had significant playing time from game one and that includes playoff teams. You make it sound like it's impossible for a team to draft a first rounder and have him contribute immediately if they are thinking "long term." That's nonsense. That's not today's NFL. A first round pick HAS to contribute his first year unless he's in a unique skill position such as quarterback where only one QB will play in a season unless he's injured. If any non-QB first round pick doesn't at least get playing time from game one, you made a bad pick.
As for the other players you mentioned, I am singularly unimpressed with Hagan. He has bad hands and that is not always correctable. I certainly wouldn't call him an accessory of a "very good draft." Daniels has been injured quite a bit and has underachieved most of the time. Toledo is injured and has not shown us anything.
If those are your arguments for Saban being a good personell man, you have no argument at all.

Rick 1966
11-27-2006, 12:52 PM
Saban is the best thing we've had since Shula....No doubt...How can you coach dropped balls and penalties?

By drafting or signing players that don't drop balls or constantly commit stupid penalties. It ain't that hard...many WINNING teams do it.

hellsapoppin
11-27-2006, 01:23 PM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year? Actually I don't think what happen in the previous season is going to matter what happens in the next season, as far as wins and losses. We started out crappie last season and this season it doesn't mean Jack about what is going to happen next season. It's kinda of a wait and see...

Shamboubou
11-27-2006, 03:14 PM
This is an area I think you are very mistaken. One of the reasons I started to criticise him was because of his refusal to take undiffused blame for the teams riduculously poor start. He never once said he was embarrassed that he didn't prepare the team as well as he should have and he got outcoached. His statements always started off with some accountibility but he always managed to turn it away in an offhanded sort of way.

Before the bye week he said something to the effect of, for the team, the fans and the organization I feel like I should be here 24 hours a day the whole break, BUT I don't know that would make a difference. Which suggests he felt there wasn't much more he felt he could do. I truly believe he bought into his own hype a little too much and don't know whether anyone in his position wouldn't by into it a bit.

Other comments he made. When asked if he or the team was to blame for the loss. I can't win if I answer that question....so I won't answer it at all. Of course you can win in answering that question. After yesterdays ridiculous Pittsburgh performance Cowher said he was embarrassed, outplayed and outcoached and it all starts with him.....he was the most to blame. I don't love Cowher, always thought he was a good coach but a bad playoff coach and frankly I think 05' Pitt was probably the worst team in NFL history to win a superbowl, but I like the way he takes blame. He takes it as he should. Saban never did that, always some sort of a But or a way to diffuse the blame.

The coach can only do so much to prepare the players for the game and can only take so much blame for bad plays. The coach really doesn't have an influence of dropped passes, missed blocking assignments, hanging onto the ball for to long. The coach can really only take so much blame. He talks of accountability, which means that everybody on the team has a role and they are all accountable for fufilling that role. He says unless everybody fufills the role they are supposed to then the teams does not perform well.

I would find it completely stupid for Saban to come out and say, well its my fault McMike didn't hang onto the ball, or that Chambers has the dropsies. How about its my fault the refs called a bogus PI call. I'm not Saban is completely perfect this year, but I am saying there isn't a game you can say the team was just out coached. The losses of this year fall completely on the players for their execution. Tell me one game that Saban was just out coached, where he had no answer for another team.

phishfan4life
11-27-2006, 05:48 PM
Of course it's hypothetical, that's the whole point. Isn't any thread about JH amazing success and whether it continue hypothetical? Or how about the Dolphins shot at the playoffs? Pretty much hypothetical as well. Many ifs have to occur for either of those questions to be answered.

The Mularkey offense hasn't worked much of anywhere. The Steelers were a decent offensive team but didn't win a superbowl until long after Mularkey was gone and they got a qb that could make plays downfield. He was pretty awful as a head coach of the Bills and Losman and the offense seem to be better off without him.

I've never understood taking a ball control offensive minded guy when the head coaches specialty is defense. You need creativity on offense. Can you imagine if Andy Reid were our O coordinator or Brian Billick. Being a ball control offense takes absolutely no offensive genius what so ever. You find yourself a power back and pound the ball as much as possible. Unfortunately if you are behind and your defense isn't one of the best in the league, it doesn't work. The guy just isn't good and there was absolutely nothing in his past that suggested coming to the Dolphins was going to make our offense as good or better than it was. Why wouldn't you replace Mularkey with someone more creative like Linehan? There had to be someone out there, someone with a really creative mind for offense.


Yes, and my whole point is why is everyone getting so worked up over somehting that HASN'T happened. That's right, that's what hypothetical means.....it hasn't happened. The question should be, should Saban be fired now? Not, should Saban be fired if win out this year, start 1-8 next year, Drew Brees leads New Orleans to a perfect season, Venus implodes, Sasquatch gives birth to twins and I win the lottery. I can't believe how much time is spent on this board arguing things that haven't happened yet.

Let's just say that nobody wants to start next year 1-6, and leave it at that.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 07:19 PM
If you got banned for being critical, good riddance to this board. There are other boards and other places you can go to voice your opinions about football and/or the Dolphins. Mediocrity at best is all that can be expected if no one is ever held accountible.

I will say this. When a guy like Dan Marino has lost it, he gets a bye in my opinion. He was the greatest pure passer in the history of the NFL. Manning is great but he'll never be able to thread the needle like Dan did in triple coverage. A guy like that comes around once in a lifetime, maybe even a century. You let him come back even if he isn't going to give you a legitimate chance at a superbowl simply because he is who he is and half the Dolphins fans were introduced to the Dolphins entirely because of Dan. Other than that I agree with you. Shula had lost his ability to be a top contender, he should have retired or been replaced. These guys have every opportunity to be involved and they certainly could continue to be valuable assetts to the team in one way or another just not running the whole show.

I agree with you on everything but Marino. I was a Fins fan long before Marino ever came along, and I'll be one long after him. All I want is the Fins to win, and I don't care about past team records, past player records, etc, etc. Belichick will never equal Shula's win totals, Brady will never equal Marino's passing records...and I would trade every record, every perfect season, every Marino record for the three SBs the Pats have. And I would do it in a heartbeat.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 07:25 PM
This thread is completely hypothetical, which makes it very hard to argue any point, but kudos to everyone on here for trying. The thing that makes me scratch my head about your particular post Tampafinsfan, is that you call Culpepper & LJ Shelton the biggest messes. What about the messes that required Saban to go after these two guys? And I wouldn't call Shelton a mess now that he was moved to guard, and Culpepper hasn't played healthy yet.

With that said, hypothetically, if we start next season 1-6 again...I will be angry....but if we start next season with another OC, it's possible. We need less turnover in key areas next year to start with the success we want. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of Mularckey, but we need to build on the success we have had ending this season, not rip it apart and start over again...IMHO.

Many teams have QB and Oline issues. The teams' FO either handles them correctly or they don't. I would argue that starting the season with DC as the starting QB was a mistake. If he wasn't healthy, should he have been playing? Starting LJS at LT was a huge mistake, as evidenced by the improvement since moving him to RG. Why wasn't he there in September? Whose fault is that? If we start the season 1-6, it will be probably be Harrington's fault. Or maybe the surgeon who performed surgery on DCs knee. We know who won't be blamed, don't we. The guy is immune from criticism.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 07:31 PM
The guy is paid in enormous amount of money. If anyone should be held under the highest powered microscope it's this guy. Expecting an improvement from one season to the next isn't unreasonable in any way. We were flat out awful the first 7 games of the season. We were arguably the worst team in the league, it's the worst Dolphins performance I've ever witnessed in 26 years. How is expecting something more than that and a quicker fix unreasonable?

Nope. I was told that the mess was so bad that expecting improvement is unrealistic.

Dredd1050
11-27-2006, 07:34 PM
If we win out and lose in the first round of the playoffs, start the season 3-5 next year and still make the playoffs but lose, do we still want Saban back year 4?

How many years do we deal with lots of losses to start the season and digging our way out of a hole?

Obviously last year was his first and the team was supposed to be pretty much horrible so that one is fine. This year was the opposite whether the offense was way overrated or not. We still started horribly slowly. Maybe it's a Saban issue and something he will always have problems with. If so, do we stick with him if he can still make the playoffs every year?

That would be like the last couple of years with Jimmy and Shula before him so what's the difference?

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 07:40 PM
Saban is the best thing we've had since Shula....No doubt...How can you coach dropped balls and penalties? They were the reason for the slow start...THe team seems like its coming together pretty good now.....

Question? Why is it that when the entire team and coaching staff believes in the head coach, and the system he has implemented, some fools think they know whats best for this team.....Remember who we had her for the last number of years!!!! Give the man a little time....He'll clean up the mess left by that other chump....The same can be said for ppl calling for any players heads

We as fans, IMO, have the right to question Saban, and any other coach or player, regardless of who disagrees. As for everyone in the organization "supporting" Saban, how could we know? He runs a third world dictatorship where no one can speak to the press, much less disagree with Saban.

As for dropped passes and penalties, I think you can absolutely coach that. Well coached teams don't commit stupid penalties. Look at NE in the past. The Patriots also don't drop many passes in critical times of games. Thats why they've been the best team in the league since 2000. Its all coaching.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 07:40 PM
Penalties are entirely about coaching. The dropped balls had nothing to do with giving up 21 points or more a game on defense.

Maybe when a team starts 1-6 against awful competition people start to wonder if the coach, staff and team know what's best for them.

Good call.

TampaFinsFan01
11-27-2006, 07:42 PM
Sorry, but that's just excuse-making of the highest caliber. Many other teams' first round picks have started or at least had significant playing time from game one and that includes playoff teams. You make it sound like it's impossible for a team to draft a first rounder and have him contribute immediately if they are thinking "long term." That's nonsense. That's not today's NFL. A first round pick HAS to contribute his first year unless he's in a unique skill position such as quarterback where only one QB will play in a season unless he's injured. If any non-QB first round pick doesn't at least get playing time from game one, you made a bad pick.
As for the other players you mentioned, I am singularly unimpressed with Hagan. He has bad hands and that is not always correctable. I certainly wouldn't call him an accessory of a "very good draft." Daniels has been injured quite a bit and has underachieved most of the time. Toledo is injured and has not shown us anything.
If those are your arguments for Saban being a good personell man, you have no argument at all.

Totally agree.

phishfan4life
11-27-2006, 08:36 PM
Many teams have QB and Oline issues. The teams' FO either handles them correctly or they don't. I would argue that starting the season with DC as the starting QB was a mistake. If he wasn't healthy, should he have been playing? Starting LJS at LT was a huge mistake, as evidenced by the improvement since moving him to RG. Why wasn't he there in September? Whose fault is that? If we start the season 1-6, it will be probably be Harrington's fault. Or maybe the surgeon who performed surgery on DCs knee. We know who won't be blamed, don't we. The guy is immune from criticism.

Why wasn't Shelton at guard in September? Because we needed to upgrade at LT, and Saban went out and got the best LT he could in FA. Why would you get a LT in FA to start the season at guard? He didn't work out at LT, so they moved him. The fact that they saw that they needed to move him was good news for me. The previous coaches for this team would not have swallowed their pride and moved him. Nick deserves some credit for that.

And don't respond to my posts with this Saban is immune from criticism stuff. I never said he wasn't, and I never blamed Harrington for anything.

ChambersWI
11-27-2006, 08:39 PM
Many teams have QB and Oline issues. The teams' FO either handles them correctly or they don't. I would argue that starting the season with DC as the starting QB was a mistake. If he wasn't healthy, should he have been playing? Starting LJS at LT was a huge mistake, as evidenced by the improvement since moving him to RG. Why wasn't he there in September? Whose fault is that? If we start the season 1-6, it will be probably be Harrington's fault. Or maybe the surgeon who performed surgery on DCs knee. We know who won't be blamed, don't we. The guy is immune from criticism.

Saban has gotten his fair shar of critism, just most of it is unsupported rubbish like "Saban is the next Spurrier", "We should have signed Charlie Weiss", ect.

You and Ekinger atleast support your arguments.

To answer the question about LJ and LT/RG. That's actually a simple answer. He was a pro bowl alternate as a LT last year with Cleveland, and was a solid LT/LG for Arizona. No one thought he would struggle so much at LT f us.

A better question would be why it took so long for Bell to become a starter.

I think the rants that both me most are when people say he didn't improve our secondary. IMO our secondary is much better than it was last year. Sure, early on we gave up some big plays, but those were against Tillman (who has been benched), or a PI call when we had an ineffective blitz. IMO Will Allen and Andre Goodman are having great years for us, and are gambles for what we're paying them (though I would love to have a true shut down corner).

I'll admit, I think Mularkey was a bad hire. The only reason I think we hired him was because he had an unpredictability to his offense, but he doesn't know when to tone that down. I do think a lot of the struggles on offense go on his shoulders, but I can see why Saban should get blame; especially after he put a leash on Linehan early last year.

I have however, not heard many complaints about Capers. I loved the Capers hire, and because of him JT is having probably his best year ever. The only complaints about our D I've heard this year is that our secondary gives up too many plays, which goes to blaming Saban because he's a DB guru.

THis might be completely irrelevent to the topic, but I think there would be much less conflict on the board if people didn't overreact about every little thing. (ie, calling Hagan,Roth,Ronnie, and Allen busts).

muscle979
11-27-2006, 09:28 PM
Nope. I was told that the mess was so bad that expecting improvement is unrealistic.

You wanted improvement, you got it. At this point last season Miami was 4-7. There's the improvement you've been going on about all season. You know nobody, or at least me, has a problem with your criticisms of Saban. They are all valid. The problem is that you decided less than 20 games into his pro coaching career that he is not cut out for it and you stubbornly insist that's the truth despite the fact that the team has done a complete 180 over the last month. Also despite the fact that other coaches in comparable situations have had less success or at best equal. John Elway has more come from behind wins than anybody else. Maybe we should all decide that he sucks b/c if he was good he never would have been behind to begin with.

Ekinger
11-28-2006, 12:09 AM
The coach can only do so much to prepare the players for the game and can only take so much blame for bad plays. The coach really doesn't have an influence of dropped passes, missed blocking assignments, hanging onto the ball for to long. The coach can really only take so much blame. He talks of accountability, which means that everybody on the team has a role and they are all accountable for fufilling that role. He says unless everybody fufills the role they are supposed to then the teams does not perform well.

I would find it completely stupid for Saban to come out and say, well its my fault McMike didn't hang onto the ball, or that Chambers has the dropsies. How about its my fault the refs called a bogus PI call. I'm not Saban is completely perfect this year, but I am saying there isn't a game you can say the team was just out coached. The losses of this year fall completely on the players for their execution. Tell me one game that Saban was just out coached, where he had no answer for another team.

I'm sorry but that's a joke. The secondary was AWFUL, absolutely AWFUL. They were constantly missing assignments. That's almost entirely a coaching issue. If a team performs poorly in every aspect of the game, then the coach is to blame almost entirely. If a team performs poorly in one area, that could be simply a lack of skill at those positions. The fact that the Dolphins turned it around so dramatically suggests that coaching was the root of the problem to an even greater degree.

Ekinger
11-28-2006, 12:14 AM
The thing is the guy can get it done. I think he thought it was going to be easy. Once they went on that run last year with a mediocre offense and above average defense. I think Saban honestly believed he could do no wrong. What coach wouldn't? He's been in the league less than a year, takes a terrible team and gives them a winning season. Then makes what are seemingly some decent moves to bring in some real skill.

I truly believe he was thinking, it just isn't that hard. Hell if I can turn a crappy team around in half a hear, I'm going to get us to the playoffs next year easy and then Superbowl year 3. I'm paid as much as anyone. I've never coached professionally before. I did it in college regularly. He didn't have our team prepared to play until week 7 and that's his fault almost entirely.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 11:28 AM
Why wasn't Shelton at guard in September? Because we needed to upgrade at LT, and Saban went out and got the best LT he could in FA. Why would you get a LT in FA to start the season at guard? He didn't work out at LT, so they moved him. The fact that they saw that they needed to move him was good news for me. The previous coaches for this team would not have swallowed their pride and moved him. Nick deserves some credit for that.

And don't respond to my posts with this Saban is immune from criticism stuff. I never said he wasn't, and I never blamed Harrington for anything.

Obviously LJS wasn't the best LT out there. D Mac is better. The coaches have to know who is the best players before week 7. You can't go 1-6 before you right the ship. You can't go 3-7 before you get things corrected. By then its too late.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 11:45 AM
Saban has gotten his fair shar of critism, just most of it is unsupported rubbish like "Saban is the next Spurrier", "We should have signed Charlie Weiss", ect.

You and Ekinger atleast support your arguments.

To answer the question about LJ and LT/RG. That's actually a simple answer. He was a pro bowl alternate as a LT last year with Cleveland, and was a solid LT/LG for Arizona. No one thought he would struggle so much at LT f us.

A better question would be why it took so long for Bell to become a starter.

I think the rants that both me most are when people say he didn't improve our secondary. IMO our secondary is much better than it was last year. Sure, early on we gave up some big plays, but those were against Tillman (who has been benched), or a PI call when we had an ineffective blitz. IMO Will Allen and Andre Goodman are having great years for us, and are gambles for what we're paying them (though I would love to have a true shut down corner).

I'll admit, I think Mularkey was a bad hire. The only reason I think we hired him was because he had an unpredictability to his offense, but he doesn't know when to tone that down. I do think a lot of the struggles on offense go on his shoulders, but I can see why Saban should get blame; especially after he put a leash on Linehan early last year.

I have however, not heard many complaints about Capers. I loved the Capers hire, and because of him JT is having probably his best year ever. The only complaints about our D I've heard this year is that our secondary gives up too many plays, which goes to blaming Saban because he's a DB guru.

THis might be completely irrelevent to the topic, but I think there would be much less conflict on the board if people didn't overreact about every little thing. (ie, calling Hagan,Roth,Ronnie, and Allen busts).

I do agree there is some shill criticism of Saban, but there is always that with any situation. My frustration is that I have been warned to tone it down when I have always fully supported my criticism with reasons why I think they are worth making.

The reason I bring up the LJS being mishandled is because I think with proper pass protection we certainly win one more game(Buffalo), probably two(Houston), and possibly three(Pittsburgh).

I am certainly aware that Tillman playing instead Bell was a mistake. But we are going to miss the playoffs by probably 2 games, and if the Oline was better prepared to start the season, I think we win those games.

As for calling draft picks busts, again, you will always have some of that. The one thing though, that we all must realize and admit is that FA has changed the way drafts are judged. The guys drafted have to be able to contribute early, hopefully year one. And its not unreasonable. I look around the league and there are alot of draft picks making alot of impact. Addai in Indy, DeAngelo Williams in Carolina, Cromartie in San Diego, Colston in New Orleans...etc, etc.

In our situation, I think Roth is redeeming himself this year after being disappointing last year. I think alot is going to be expected out of Allen next year because he hasn't really shown anything this year. Hagan, while perhaps not a bust, IMO is disappointing, and is showing the doubts about him to be true (to this point). Toledo was injured in college and injuries have shut him down this season. The only surprise is why anyone would be surprised.

Most of these guys are going to be RFA in a couple of years. We need them to produce now. This isn't 1985 where if you drafted a guy you could wait 3 years to even get him on the field. Today guys have to be ready contribute something in year one or two.

Shamboubou
11-28-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm sorry but that's a joke. The secondary was AWFUL, absolutely AWFUL. They were constantly missing assignments. That's almost entirely a coaching issue. If a team performs poorly in every aspect of the game, then the coach is to blame almost entirely. If a team performs poorly in one area, that could be simply a lack of skill at those positions. The fact that the Dolphins turned it around so dramatically suggests that coaching was the root of the problem to an even greater degree.

Right...So Saban must have picked up his copy of "coaching for dummies" half way through the season right? Or let me guess, he changed the system half way through the season to a better one?

Lets ask this question, If a player knows his assignment and doesn't execute that assignment that is the coach's fault? Or the O-Line knows that arn't supposed to move before the snap, but they jump and get a false start, that is the coach's fault? That sounds ignorant to me.

Here is my personal favorite, people on here know they arn't supposed to make personal attacks or circumvent the profanity filter, so when they do its the Mod's fault right? Fire those MODS!! :evil:

finner
11-28-2006, 01:16 PM
For whatever the reason, a number of people on this board are so in love with Saban they exonerate him from any responsibility for the team negatives; yet praise him unconditionally for the positives. Honestly, I really don’t get it --- other than being sold a bill of goods on this guy as the “savior incarnate” who can do no wrong?

The guy has never taken an NFL team to the playoffs yet some have him winning multiple super bowls with multiple teams! For pigskin sakes, there is no evidence that he is among the greatest coaches in the history of the game --- let alone a truly great coach in the NFL right now. So far, his track record is a mixed bag, and the results he’s achieved on the field are a mixed bag. Could he be a great NFL coach someday? Perhaps. But that will be proven (or disproved) on the field.

Let's see if the Dolphins run the table and make the playoffs before we proclaim Saban to the thrown of excellence, let alone greatness!

phishfan4life
11-28-2006, 01:38 PM
Obviously LJS wasn't the best LT out there. D Mac is better. The coaches have to know who is the best players before week 7. You can't go 1-6 before you right the ship. You can't go 3-7 before you get things corrected. By then its too late.

You honestly thought that after last year, we had our LT in D Mac.....seriously? I'm not saying that Saban didn't make a mistake, but you don't try to upgrade your LT position by trying to get a better LT in FA, and starting him at guard. I'm not exonerating Saban from anything, but it makes sense to start our FA LT at LT. He made the change didn't he? He could have just left him at LT all year. I give him credit for that...even if it was 3 or 4 games too late.

Saban needs to make better decisions quicker, but all in all, I think he's doing pretty good for a 2nd year NFL Head Coach. Is he our savior.....not now....but he certainly isn't the demise of this franchise either.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 02:13 PM
You wanted improvement, you got it. At this point last season Miami was 4-7. There's the improvement you've been going on about all season. You know nobody, or at least me, has a problem with your criticisms of Saban. They are all valid. The problem is that you decided less than 20 games into his pro coaching career that he is not cut out for it and you stubbornly insist that's the truth despite the fact that the team has done a complete 180 over the last month. Also despite the fact that other coaches in comparable situations have had less success or at best equal. John Elway has more come from behind wins than anybody else. Maybe we should all decide that he sucks b/c if he was good he never would have been behind to begin with.

You are free to decide anything you want on Elway. After 20 games, I do think I can make a judgement or players or coaches. They may or may not be 100% correct, which is why I always try to provide reasons with my criticisms. I don't usually post "fire him because he sucks" or "he's an idiot". I give specific reasons, unlike some of his supporters, "just give him time" defense. I think an unfounded defense is just as bad as an unfounded criticism.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 02:18 PM
Right...So Saban must have picked up his copy of "coaching for dummies" half way through the season right? Or let me guess, he changed the system half way through the season to a better one?

Lets ask this question, If a player knows his assignment and doesn't execute that assignment that is the coach's fault? Or the O-Line knows that arn't supposed to move before the snap, but they jump and get a false start, that is the coach's fault? That sounds ignorant to me.

Here is my personal favorite, people on here know they arn't supposed to make personal attacks or circumvent the profanity filter, so when they do its the Mod's fault right? Fire those MODS!! :evil:

I don't think you have been reading the entire posts, or maybe you are not understanding them. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such a lame attempt to defend a coach.

Its not a coach's fault if in week one a guy plays like crap. After week two, if the same player is still making the same mistakes and failing to correct his errors, then I think the coach does bear some responsibility. If by week three its the same ol' player doing the same ol' thing, then yes, by then the coach is 100% responsible.

If the mods continually allow violations of TOS rules, then the administrator or owner of the site might well indeed get new moderators.

I know in my job, if I have a cost issue that is out of line, I usually have one month or two to get it corrected. I don't have 4 or 5 years. I have to start showing some improvement PDQ.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 02:20 PM
For whatever the reason, a number of people on this board are so in love with Saban they exonerate him from any responsibility for the team negatives; yet praise him unconditionally for the positives. Honestly, I really don’t get it --- other than being sold a bill of goods on this guy as the “savior incarnate” who can do no wrong?

The guy has never taken an NFL team to the playoffs yet some have him winning multiple super bowls with multiple teams! For pigskin sakes, there is no evidence that he is among the greatest coaches in the history of the game --- let alone a truly great coach in the NFL right now. So far, his track record is a mixed bag, and the results he’s achieved on the field are a mixed bag. Could he be a great NFL coach someday? Perhaps. But that will be proven (or disproved) on the field.

Let's see if the Dolphins run the table and make the playoffs before we proclaim Saban to the thrown of excellence, let alone greatness! \

Great post. And fair as well.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 02:26 PM
You honestly thought that after last year, we had our LT in D Mac.....seriously? I'm not saying that Saban didn't make a mistake, but you don't try to upgrade your LT position by trying to get a better LT in FA, and starting him at guard. I'm not exonerating Saban from anything, but it makes sense to start our FA LT at LT. He made the change didn't he? He could have just left him at LT all year. I give him credit for that...even if it was 3 or 4 games too late.

Saban needs to make better decisions quicker, but all in all, I think he's doing pretty good for a 2nd year NFL Head Coach. Is he our savior.....not now....but he certainly isn't the demise of this franchise either.

You are missing my point. I am not pimping Dmac. I am just saying that he is better than LJS. And if Saban couldn't tell which was the better player by watching them on tape, in practice and in games, then maybe he isn't worth the 4 mil a year we're paying him. I might have screwed it up as well, but I would have screwed it up for alot less than 4 mil a year. If we miss the playoffs again this year, it will be 8 mil that we've spent on a coach (in salary alone, not counting the other money Saban has spent) with nothing really to show.

Hell, we were missing the playoffs with Wannstedt as coach. I thought the idea was to get us a coach that would take us to the playoffs.

Someone said we were a young team "choc full of talent" under Saban. I don't know that I agree with that assessment.

CrunchTime
11-28-2006, 02:34 PM
Please refrain from making personal references.Any more will bring points.

Even if its an indirect attack ,if it encourages inappropiate replies it will be considered as an attack or annoyance both which are against the TOS.

Also please stay away from inflammatory adjectives.

Shamboubou
11-28-2006, 03:34 PM
I don't think you have been reading the entire posts, or maybe you are not understanding them. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such a lame attempt to defend a coach.

Its not a coach's fault if in week one a guy plays like crap. After week two, if the same player is still making the same mistakes and failing to correct his errors, then I think the coach does bear some responsibility. If by week three its the same ol' player doing the same ol' thing, then yes, by then the coach is 100% responsible.

If the mods continually allow violations of TOS rules, then the administrator or owner of the site might well indeed get new moderators.

I know in my job, if I have a cost issue that is out of line, I usually have one month or two to get it corrected. I don't have 4 or 5 years. I have to start showing some improvement PDQ.

But does your boss lose his job if you keep screwing up?? NO!! He gets rid of you. That is the point exactly. You cant make players catch a ball, you cant make players make the correct decision on a blocking assingment. If you dont think that Saban is working on players mistakes then you obviously dont every listen to a post game press conference where he always says we'll have to go back and look at the mistakes and correct them. There is nothing more that I coach can do than give the players the right tools and knowledge to correct a problem.

Your boss cant tell you 20 times how to correct your cost issue or whatever, but if you just an idiot (hypothetically) then your still going to screw up. Its not your boss's fault you cant get it right, its the fact your an idiot.

In the examples that you are giving the only responsibility that the coach really has is allowing that same player to go out and keep playing when they arn't doing things right. i.e. Tillman, Saban should have put him on the bench after the 2nd or 3rd game. That was a mistake. Once again I by no means think Saban is perfect, but if you are looking for flaws you can find them on anybody.

I'm saying that you cant blame a 1-6 start on Saban alone because 95% of the problem was the players on the field it was the execution that they performed. It wasn't the system, it was execution. Just like Madden said earlier this year, "there is no such thing as a bad play, Just bad execution"

Shamboubou
11-28-2006, 03:37 PM
Please refrain from making personal references.Any more will bring points.

Even if its an indirect attack ,if it encourages inappropiate replies it will be considered as an attack or annoyance both which are against the TOS.

Also please stay away from inflammatory adjectives.

If this is directed towards me I apolagize, I was merely trying to make a point that most could understand. You guys do a great job on here.

TampaFinsFan01
11-28-2006, 04:47 PM
But does your boss lose his job if you keep screwing up?? NO!! He gets rid of you. That is the point exactly. You cant make players catch a ball, you cant make players make the correct decision on a blocking assingment. If you dont think that Saban is working on players mistakes then you obviously dont every listen to a post game press conference where he always says we'll have to go back and look at the mistakes and correct them. There is nothing more that I coach can do than give the players the right tools and knowledge to correct a problem.

Your boss cant tell you 20 times how to correct your cost issue or whatever, but if you just an idiot (hypothetically) then your still going to screw up. Its not your boss's fault you cant get it right, its the fact your an idiot.

In the examples that you are giving the only responsibility that the coach really has is allowing that same player to go out and keep playing when they arn't doing things right. i.e. Tillman, Saban should have put him on the bench after the 2nd or 3rd game. That was a mistake. Once again I by no means think Saban is perfect, but if you are looking for flaws you can find them on anybody.

I'm saying that you cant blame a 1-6 start on Saban alone because 95% of the problem was the players on the field it was the execution that they performed. It wasn't the system, it was execution. Just like Madden said earlier this year, "there is no such thing as a bad play, Just bad execution"

So then, by your definition, a coach should NEVER be fired. Because I am fairly certain no coach has ever held one practice with the intention of not getting better, not preparing for the other team, not planning to succeed. No coach has ever made a bad throw, ever missed a block or tackle, ever dropped a pass. In that sense, its always the PLAYER.

To your point about him only making one personnel mistake, Tillman, I would offer you the Oline positions (that has been repeatedly talked about in this very thread) and QB.

Let me ask you this...who should take responsibility for a player that is sub-standard if not the head coach? For example, should Derek Hagan go to Saban and tell him, "Coach, I know I can't catch, so please don't have the QB throw me the ball". Should JH go to Saban and tell him "Coach, DH can't catch a cold, I will not throw him the ball"?

I think the HC has three options....1) Teach the player to catch (or block, or whatever his job calls for 2) Put players that cannot perform their jobs on the bench 3)Get rid of the said player and bring in someone else that can.

And please don't tell me, "Oh yeah, cut a rookie third round draft pick, right"....Hey, I didn't draft him. I wouldn't have drafted someone who can't catch. 31 other teams didn't draft him because the knock on him was that he had poor hands.

Saban (and any head coach who has GM responsiblities) is not only responsible for the players on the team, but he is responsible for how those players perform. If they perform well, he gets kudos. If they perform poorly, he gets blamed. If not, then what doesn't matter who is the HC? Rich Kotite wanted to win as much as Don Shula. I am convinced of that. Its just his methods weren't as effective.

phinphanforever
11-28-2006, 05:30 PM
Yep, obviously an awful question. The guy has now had a hard time getting us started 2 years in a row. It's possible he'll always struggle at the beginning of the season and if he does but we make the playoffs do we stick with him? Maybe you all think yes. Personally, if we lose 5 out of 8 to start every season, I don't want him whether we make the playoffs or not.

Too much effort is wasted to make the playoffs year in and year out if we have to dig ourselves out of a deep hole.
Is this a serious thread topic? I am left totally clueless every time I read these threads on how Saban should be fired. It absolutely blows mi mind. The man is a great coach. He was one of the most sought after coaches for several years. There are plenty of reasons for that.
He has been very successful with the Dolphins. He said from day one that he wanted the players to focus on the process, and the results will follow. I guess many fans just fail to comprehend this no matter how many times it is repeated. The process is working, and the results are coming.
There are some who refuse to look at anything but the final record. They are completely oblivious to the context in which Saban took over this team. There is really no point in going over his strenghts once gain for the doubters. If people can't appreciate Saban now then I doubt they ever will. I wouldn't shed a tear, however, if some of these fans would just pick another team to root for. It's embarrassing really. It's like a Steelers fan monaing about Cowher before they won the SB.

phinphanforever
11-28-2006, 05:53 PM
So then, by your definition, a coach should NEVER be fired. Because I am fairly certain no coach has ever held one practice with the intention of not getting better, not preparing for the other team, not planning to succeed. No coach has ever made a bad throw, ever missed a block or tackle, ever dropped a pass. In that sense, its always the PLAYER.

To your point about him only making one personnel mistake, Tillman, I would offer you the Oline positions (that has been repeatedly talked about in this very thread) and QB.

Let me ask you this...who should take responsibility for a player that is sub-standard if not the head coach? For example, should Derek Hagan go to Saban and tell him, "Coach, I know I can't catch, so please don't have the QB throw me the ball". Should JH go to Saban and tell him "Coach, DH can't catch a cold, I will not throw him the ball"?

I think the HC has three options....1) Teach the player to catch (or block, or whatever his job calls for 2) Put players that cannot perform their jobs on the bench 3)Get rid of the said player and bring in someone else that can.

And please don't tell me, "Oh yeah, cut a rookie third round draft pick, right"....Hey, I didn't draft him. I wouldn't have drafted someone who can't catch. 31 other teams didn't draft him because the knock on him was that he had poor hands.

Saban (and any head coach who has GM responsiblities) is not only responsible for the players on the team, but he is responsible for how those players perform. If they perform well, he gets kudos. If they perform poorly, he gets blamed. If not, then what doesn't matter who is the HC? Rich Kotite wanted to win as much as Don Shula. I am convinced of that. Its just his methods weren't as effective.

:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: Too funny. I apologise in advance, but all of your replies just make me laugh. You have consitenly been posting (not just on this thread) your displeasure for Saban, yet you use the most asinine points to defend your argument. You talk about the 3-7 start but always fail to mention we won 6 in a row to finish the season., You knock Saban for his personnel decisions, and then those personnel (i.e Roth, Allen etc ) start to show signs of promise, and we suddenly don't hear from you on this subject.
You just used Derek Hagan as an example of a bad player, implying he was a mistake to select him. First, it's only been 11 games in the guy's career. Patience. Second, it's not like he has Joe Montana or Marino throwing him the ball. Third, how many other receivers went after Hagan and are producing at a much higher level? Colston? Are you implying that SAban should have picked Colston? It really just makes me laugh. Some people's expectations of coaches are completely out of whack. They expect every draft pick to be a knockout, regardless of the round. I think most people on this site, most football fans with some knowlege of the game and most GMs in the NFL would agree that Saban has done a very good job at the draft, and a great job coaching this team.
It's funny how you always seem to note somehting along the lines of Saban having cult status on this site, that people somehow refuse to criticise him, and that they are having the wool pulled over their eyes. Lots of laughter. People admire Saban because he took a franchise that looked as though it was headed in a long protracted funk -as many NFL franchises do when their windows of ooportunity close and they are suddenly left with old players and are in cap hell - and turned it into a competitive team that has a lot of promise, now and for years to come.
I think it is more reasonable to conclude that you are so biased against Saban that you will not acknowledge any of his achievements as Dolfphins coach. Instead you appear to focus on unrealistic expectations.

muscle979
11-28-2006, 06:07 PM
You are free to decide anything you want on Elway. After 20 games, I do think I can make a judgement or players or coaches. They may or may not be 100% correct, which is why I always try to provide reasons with my criticisms. I don't usually post "fire him because he sucks" or "he's an idiot". I give specific reasons, unlike some of his supporters, "just give him time" defense. I think an unfounded defense is just as bad as an unfounded criticism.

Yes you can decide anything you want but most of us probably agree that it would be pretty hard to define a coach's career and future potential after such a short time. He hasn't even had two full season yet and he does have a winning record. I know that one of your criticisms was lack of improvement, well not only is the team playing better than last year they have a better record than they did at this point last year. That's an improvement, maybe not as much as you thought there should be, but an improvement nonetheless. I am thankful that the Dolphins are not in shambles like say the Cleveland Browns. They are horrible right now. I respect your opinion and agree with a lot of your criticisms. The huge difference is that I see a lot of potential in Saban and you apparently see none.

Rick 1966
11-28-2006, 08:49 PM
:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: Too funny. I apologise in advance, but all of your replies just make me laugh. You have consitenly been posting (not just on this thread) your displeasure for Saban, yet you use the most asinine points to defend your argument. You talk about the 3-7 start but always fail to mention we won 6 in a row to finish the season., You knock Saban for his personnel decisions, and then those personnel (i.e Roth, Allen etc ) start to show signs of promise, and we suddenly don't hear from you on this subject.
You just used Derek Hagan as an example of a bad player, implying he was a mistake to select him. First, it's only been 11 games in the guy's career. Patience. Second, it's not like he has Joe Montana or Marino throwing him the ball. Third, how many other receivers went after Hagan and are producing at a much higher level? Colston? Are you implying that SAban should have picked Colston? It really just makes me laugh. Some people's expectations of coaches are completely out of whack. They expect every draft pick to be a knockout, regardless of the round. I think most people on this site, most football fans with some knowlege of the game and most GMs in the NFL would agree that Saban has done a very good job at the draft, and a great job coaching this team.
It's funny how you always seem to note somehting along the lines of Saban having cult status on this site, that people somehow refuse to criticise him, and that they are having the wool pulled over their eyes. Lots of laughter. People admire Saban because he took a franchise that looked as though it was headed in a long protracted funk -as many NFL franchises do when their windows of ooportunity close and they are suddenly left with old players and are in cap hell - and turned it into a competitive team that has a lot of promise, now and for years to come.
I think it is more reasonable to conclude that you are so biased against Saban that you will not acknowledge any of his achievements as Dolfphins coach. Instead you appear to focus on unrealistic expectations.

I've noticed that your replies are long on mockery and insults and short on actual argument. First of all, why SHOULDN'T have Saban picked Colston? Or any other rookie WR that has produced? Is it unrealistic to ask that he pick talented players that can contribute their first year? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that's an unrealistic expectation? Because it's only unrealistic if you EXPECT our players to not perform and our coaches to miss the hidden gems in the draft. Which you seem to do. You expect mediocrity and you think anyone who expects more is unrealistic.
Mediocrity is fine for mediocre coaches who coach mediocre teams. Saban was brought in to take us OUT of mediocriity. This is his second year. I didn't expect him to take us to the SuperBowl this season, but I expected him to build a team that would beat the bad teams, challenge the good teams and contend for the playoffs. Instead, we got a 1-6 start before we began playing seriously. It's great that we've turned it around, but it's too late...we pissed away too many games because of coaching and personnell errors to make the playoffs.
And that's the part that is rightly laid at Saban's feet. We've discovered that we DO have the talent to beat teams like the Bills, Steelers and Texans---what we didn't have was the offensive play-calling and the personnell know-how to put the right players in the right positions.
Maybe Saban has learned from this and won't make the same mistakes next season, and we won't dig ourselves into a huge hole in the first half of the season. I certainly hope so. But that hope doesn't mean Saban has been a success. It just means I have hope.