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Daytona Fin
12-15-2006, 07:05 PM
jeff bagwell retires.

just wanted to tip my hat to jeff bagwell. as an astro fan since 1979 ive never been prouder of an astros player. he's a world class guy. he deserves to be in the hall of fame. wish he would've got a ring though. maybe he can get one working in the front office for the astros. baseball needs more players like bags and biggio.

MikeO
12-15-2006, 07:09 PM
STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He won't sniff the hall of fame!

phinphan896
12-15-2006, 07:30 PM
STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He won't sniff the hall of fame!
what do steroids have to do with bagwell???

TXfins54
12-15-2006, 08:29 PM
STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He won't sniff the hall of fame!
Bagwell and Biggio are the two best and classiest players the Houston franchise has ever encountered...I will skip school drive about 2 miles down the road (I have no license) and stand in front of Minute Maid OPark to handout a petition to get him in if he doesn't

King Felix
12-15-2006, 10:10 PM
cant stand him

TXfins54
12-15-2006, 10:35 PM
cant stand him
why he is one of my child hood heroes along with dan marino and craig biggio

MikeO
12-15-2006, 11:10 PM
what do steroids have to do with bagwell???

He took them!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Look at his body during his career. Look at the injuries.

FinsNYanksFan13
12-15-2006, 11:24 PM
He took them!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Look at his body during his career. Look at the injuries.


Hell yeah I agree, Bagwell was juiced to the gills, no doubt about it!

TXfins54
12-16-2006, 05:48 PM
He took them!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Look at his body during his career. Look at the injuries.
jeff's always been big what r u going to say that lance berkman takes steroids as well cuz that would be a lie...lance's hs is just down the road from my house and they have pics of him all over the school hes a big guy

King Felix
12-16-2006, 06:21 PM
jeff's always been big what r u going to say that lance berkman takes steroids as well cuz that would be a lie...lance's hs is just down the road from my house and they have pics of him all over the school hes a big guy:confused: no one is saying anything about berkman

and yes jeff did take steriods.

finfansince72
12-16-2006, 08:51 PM
Bagwell gets in easy. WTF are you guys talking about? Theres some posts on here that are just laughable. First ballot no question hes in.

Ray Finkle
12-17-2006, 02:25 AM
Bagwell gets in easy. WTF are you guys talking about? Theres some posts on here that are just laughable. First ballot no question hes in.

Agreed. Bagwell will get in probably 1st ballot too. Career .297 batting average, .408 OBP, 202 SB for a 1st baseman, not to mention his power numbers (which would be a lot better if he didn't play pretty much all his career in the Astrodome). Yeah he didn't hit 500 homers or 3,000 hits but he was one of the most feared and dominate hitters during his generation.

Whether or not he took steroids isn't really an issue because he was never caught or is proof he took them (I'm not saying he didn't). His numbers for his career are pretty damn consistent.

Also maybe it's just me being naive but a arthritic right shoulder is a cause/side effect from steriods?

FinsNYanksFan13
12-17-2006, 02:44 AM
Agreed. Bagwell will get in probably 1st ballot too. Career .297 batting average, .408 OBP, 202 SB for a 1st baseman, not to mention his power numbers (which would be a lot better if he didn't play pretty much all his career in the Astrodome). Yeah he didn't hit 500 homers or 3,000 hits but he was one of the most feared and dominate hitters during his generation.

Whether or not he took steroids isn't really an issue because he was never caught or is proof he took them (I'm not saying he didn't). His numbers for his career are pretty damn consistent.

Also maybe it's just me being naive but a arthritic right shoulder is a cause/side effect from steriods?


No doubt he took steroids. I mean look at all the guys who we think took roids, they don't just fade because of diminished skills, they all break down. Bagwell is no different, he broke down just like Bonds is, just like Caminiti did, just like McGwire, just like Canseco, and just like a ton of other players whose career didn't fade, whose careers ended because of injuries!

Alex44
12-17-2006, 03:09 AM
Just because you were injured doesnt mean you took steroids, maybe all those years and years of stress on the body have something to do with it?

Anyway Im pretty sure a good number of players of our generation are on Steroids, and unless they get caught we cant keep them out of the HOF.

finfansince72
12-17-2006, 03:16 AM
No doubt he took steroids. I mean look at all the guys who we think took roids, they don't just fade because of diminished skills, they all break down. Bagwell is no different, he broke down just like Bonds is, just like Caminiti did, just like McGwire, just like Canseco, and just like a ton of other players whose career didn't fade, whose careers ended because of injuries!

You can't keep someone out of the Hall because of circumstantial nonsense. You have nothing to provide besides a weak assumption that after 14-15 years of playing baseball he had to retire due to injury, so that means hes on roids :rolleyes:. This is nonsense. If anything he could use steriods to extend a career ala Bonds. Bagwell has never been mentioned along with guys like Sosa, BigMac, Bonds, etc. Really this is some very weak rumour mongering on this board, its lowbrow. Bagwell always had power numbers, was consistant and has never been investigated, testified, or tested positive for steriods. Steriods will have ZERO, ZERO impact on the voting for Bagwell.

FinsNYanksFan13
12-17-2006, 03:21 AM
You can't keep someone out of the Hall because of circumstantial nonsense. You have nothing to provide besides a weak assumption that after 14-15 years of playing baseball he had to retire due to injury, so that means hes on roids :rolleyes:. This is nonsense. If anything he could use steriods to extend a career ala Bonds. Bagwell has never been mentioned along with guys like Sosa, BigMac, Bonds, etc. Really this is some very weak rumour mongering on this board, its lowbrow. Bagwell always had power numbers, was consistant and has never been investigated, testified, or tested positive for steriods. Steriods will have ZERO, ZERO impact on the voting for Bagwell.


I never said he shouldn't be in the hall I simply stated I thought he took roids. Where did you read I said he shouldn't be in the hall?

King Felix
12-17-2006, 03:51 AM
i never said anything about hall of fame, all i said was i cant stand him

FinsNYanksFan13
12-17-2006, 11:37 AM
i never said anything about hall of fame, all i said was i cant stand him


I think this guy was bored and just wanted to start an argument. He must have glazed over the posts and assumed that those that think Bagwell took steroids think he shouldn't be in the hall of game when there really 2 different issues!

Nappy Roots
12-17-2006, 11:50 AM
No doubt he took steroids. I mean look at all the guys who we think took roids, they don't just fade because of diminished skills, they all break down. Bagwell is no different, he broke down just like Bonds is, just like Caminiti did, just like McGwire, just like Canseco, and just like a ton of other players whose career didn't fade, whose careers ended because of injuries!

so people just cant get old?

Bonds didnt fade until he was 42! at what point do players bodys just not be able to take it anymore?


STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He won't sniff the hall of fame!

Bagwell might of took steriods, and ive never been a big fan of his, but whats the point of throwing steriods agaisnt him, when hes never had a connection, nor been accused? if your not going to let anyone in the Hall of Fame because in your opinion they took steriods, when theres no reason to believe he did other then his body and Era, then you should ban this entire era from the Hall of Fame.

Ray Finkle
12-17-2006, 12:29 PM
No doubt he took steroids. I mean look at all the guys who we think took roids, they don't just fade because of diminished skills, they all break down. Bagwell is no different, he broke down just like Bonds is, just like Caminiti did, just like McGwire, just like Canseco, and just like a ton of other players whose career didn't fade, whose careers ended because of injuries!

I know you're really big into weight lifting, etc so I think you'd have an idea about this but is having an a arthritic right shoulder a side effect of taking steroids?

I mean besides that and breaking his wrist 2 times after getting hit by pitches, Bagwell has been healthy his whole career. So it's not like his body just broke down with different injuries it was just his shoulder. Then again Palmerio never had any nagging injuries or broke down.

Ray Finkle
12-17-2006, 12:36 PM
Bagwell might of took steriods, and ive never been a big fan of his, but whats the point of throwing steriods agaisnt him, when hes never had a connection, nor been accused? if your not going to let anyone in the Hall of Fame because in your opinion they took steriods, when theres no reason to believe he did other then his body and Era, then you should ban this entire era from the Hall of Fame.

I agree with you 100%. I mean who's to say that Cal Ripken, Jr. was 100% clean? I mean the guy never got hurt, and steroids help heal injuries quicker. And no I really don't think Cal took them but I can't say that I'm 100% positive he did either. The thing is we have no idea who really took them and who didn't. No one would have thought Palmerio, Alex Sanchez, Ryan Franklin, Paxton Crawford did. We just don't know.

Yeah it was cheating and wrong but without proof you have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

FinsNYanksFan13
12-17-2006, 01:18 PM
I know you're really big into weight lifting, etc so I think you'd have an idea about this but is having an a arthritic right shoulder a side effect of taking steroids?

I mean besides that and breaking his wrist 2 times after getting hit by pitches, Bagwell has been healthy his whole career. So it's not like his body just broke down with different injuries it was just his shoulder. Then again Palmerio never had any nagging injuries or broke down.


See, your mistaken, arthiritis is a pain that comes and goes, it's not something that nags you everyday unless your really older, plus, I doubt it would make you end your baseball career. I have arthritis in my knees (was born with it and have had it forever) and it's something where you have your good days and your bad days, and even on bad days I can work through it (even though the pain is noticable). The thing is that Bagwell's arthritis isn't from playing baseball it's most likely from lifting heavy weights and putting on so much muscle on at one time that his body couldn't handle it, that's why the arthritis built in the first place. His joints couldn't handle putting on to much muscle at one time that is why he has it now (at least that's what I think). I mean even if he had rheumatoid arthritis, it usually doesn't occur in the shoulder joints (at least it's not as common as the hands, wrists, and knees), that's what I am suspect of him. Plus I have my ISAA and personal train in the summers (when I'm not in school) and if you look at Bagwell's transformation, it doesn't look natural. It's not like Bonds drastic transformation was but if you remember the vascularity in Bagwell's forarms when he was at the plate gripping the bat, that's a sure sign. In order to have that vascularity during the season when his weight lifting regimen obviously wasn't what it was during the off-season, he would have to be dabbling with something, especially considering the grueling schedule baseball players are on in terms of numbers of games and travel (so I know his training wasn't as on point as during the off-season). Take your average Joe from the gym who works out hard and is natural and you look at him with his shirt off. I'm sure he looks good but I bet you veins aren't popping out of him ridiculously (unless he just got done working out an hour before). Then you look at a bodybuilder on juice with his shirt off. Doesn't matter what time of the day it is, he'll have veins popping out anytime he strains to do anything (like Bagwell did to hold the bat). Personally I doubt Bagwell was hitting the weights and hour before the game so that's one sign. Another sign is that he played with Caminiti (who also is notorious for those vascular forearms gripping the bat) so that is also something I use against Bagwell, because him and Caminiti were good friends and that leads me to believe he was up to something. Finally, if you look at all the so called juicers of this generation you will see that all of their injuries are tendon related. McGwire's patella tendon caused him to retire, Bond's tendons are on their last leg and he would have retired had he not been so close to the record (he admits to playing every game in pain). David Boston tore his patella TENDON, Caminiti, retired because of tendon injuries I mean guys, the facts don't lie. Steroids cause tendon injuries because the body puts to much muscle on a tendon to quick and the tendon can't handle it because it wasn't built up. If you practiced for a few months squatting and started with say 200 pounds your body will eventually get stronger and with enough time your body will be squatting 400. But your body won't just go from squatting 200 to 400 over night, it will take time. One week you'll be squatting 225, then 250, and so on until your body works it's way up to 400 (so your body adapts to the excess weight). If you walk into a gym on roids and you start at 200 and then before you know it your doing 400 you might be doing the weight but your tendons will be saying to themselves "what the hell am I doing, I just had 200 pound on here and now I got 400, I'm not used to this strain even though I'm doing it." That is why tendons go, because their even though their doing the excess weights the roids are allowing these guy to do their not used to them so eventually they give out. Listen I'm not going to say I am an expert by any means because I'm not. But if I was a betting man I would bet Bagwell juiced. I mean look at it, it's not like Willie Mays or Hank Aaron who retired because their skills had diminished on the field and they couldn't play anymore because of age. All of these guys are having career ending injuries. I mean guys, this is MLB, not the NFL. It's more of a mental game then it is was physical game. I mean MLB is no contact, you spend a lot of time just standing around in the field, and you spend a lot of time just chilling in the dugout when you don't have an at bat that inning. Why is it now in 2006 guys are retiring because of injuries and not because they can't cut it on the field anymore? Odd to me!


By the way, I'm not saying Bagwell shouldn't be in the Hall because this is the era he played in and he shouldn't be penalized when others did the same thing and will get in. I'm just making the point that just because Bagwell didn't fail a drug test doesn't mean he wasn't on them. I mean MLB didn't start testing ti'll what, 2004 and the players had a huge heads up it was going to happen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a lot of these guys went clean when the testing was put into place and even if they didn't their millionaires, they found out the schemes to pass these tests to come out clean!

FinsNYanksFan13
12-17-2006, 01:26 PM
I agree with you 100%. I mean who's to say that Cal Ripken, Jr. was 100% clean? I mean the guy never got hurt, and steroids help heal injuries quicker. And no I really don't think Cal took them but I can't say that I'm 100% positive he did either. The thing is we have no idea who really took them and who didn't. No one would have thought Palmerio, Alex Sanchez, Ryan Franklin, Paxton Crawford did. We just don't know.

Yeah it was cheating and wrong but without proof you have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.


See that's the thing about roids, they do different things for different people, it's all about your genetics. Some people take roids and blow up, recover faster, and get stonger, the whole 9. Some take it and get stronger and get better recovery. Some just blow up, it all depends on your genetics. You can't lump every juicer in together because their are different types of roids that do different thing, it's not just take steroids and you will get bigger, stronger, recover faster, ect. Some actually make you cut up, some bulk you up, and so on so it depends what these people were on. That's why it easier to point out some people on it better then others, because of their genetics. Plus it has to do with body types, some are mesomorphs, some are endomorphs, some are ectomorphs so their body types determine what the roids do to them physcially!

finfansince72
12-17-2006, 01:40 PM
I never said he shouldn't be in the hall I simply stated I thought he took roids. Where did you read I said he shouldn't be in the hall?

Well I guess I just assumed since you were trashing a guy with literally no proof whatsoever that you were against him making the Hall. Sorry my bad for thinking a few people that are dumping on guy accusing him of cheating thought he shouldnt make the Hall. Bagwell has never even been mentioned as a possible Steriod user yet you can tell by watching him on TV that he was 'obviously juiced', man youre a genius, my bad.

Ray Finkle
12-17-2006, 02:08 PM
Great post, FinsNYanksFan13! Thanks for giving me (and I'm sure others) some good information.

FinsNYanksFan13
12-17-2006, 03:13 PM
Well I guess I just assumed since you were trashing a guy with literally no proof whatsoever that you were against him making the Hall. Sorry my bad for thinking a few people that are dumping on guy accusing him of cheating thought he shouldnt make the Hall. Bagwell has never even been mentioned as a possible Steriod user yet you can tell by watching him on TV that he was 'obviously juiced', man youre a genius, my bad.

I have my opinion, you have yours, don't be a wise *** about it. I think he juiced, you didn't. I said why, you said the only reason why is because Bagwell didn't test positive for roids. Well Bonds didn't test positive for roids, does that mean he didn't take them? Sosa never tested positive for roids and was never mentioned by anyone (like Canseco mentioned Big Mac), does that mean he was clean? Let me guess, OJ didn't kill his wife because he was found not guilty right? Considering that steroid testing in baseball didn't start until the 04 season if I'm not mistaken how could Bagwell fail any steroid tests if they didn't have them. Sorry brother but your going to have to give me a little proof he didn't then by just saying he didn't fail a drug test that only exsisted the last 2 years of his career (when be was broken down already). I might not be right but at least I made an argument as to why I thought he did them. Your giving my nothing!

finfansince72
12-17-2006, 03:25 PM
I have my opinion, you have yours, don't be a wise *** about it. I think he juiced, you didn't. I said why, you said the only reason why is because Bagwell didn't test positive for roids. Well Bonds didn't test positive for roids, does that mean he didn't take them? Sosa never tested positive for roids and was never mentioned by anyone (like Canseco mentioned Big Mac), does that mean he was clean? Let me guess, OJ didn't kill his wife because he was found not guilty right? Considering that steroid testing in baseball didn't start until the 04 season if I'm not mistaken how could Bagwell fail any steroid tests if they didn't have them. Sorry brother but your going to have to give me a little proof he didn't then by just saying he didn't fail a drug test that only exsisted the last 2 years of his career (when be was broken down already). I might not be right but at least I made an argument as to why I thought he did them. Your giving my nothing!

Im giving you nothing? Well thats more than you can give to show Bagwell took roids. Bagwell always had power numbers, he came into the league being a guy that can give you 30-40 hrs 100+rbi's and thats what he was. He wasnt a skinny kid that grew into a 60hr powerhouse like Bonds. Bagwell stats were consistant throughout his career. He didnt have a bunch 20hr years then a 50hr year. He has never been mentioned by the guys blowing whistles on steriod users, hes never been accused of it by anyone Ive heard of. The other players you mentioned have portions of their careers in which they hit for way more power than other portions, they were guys also mentioned by others who allege to have seen them or heard of them using steriods. You have absolutely nothing, NOTHING to bring to the table to say Bagwell took Roids, I dont have the burden of proof on me, you do.

djfresh47
12-17-2006, 08:52 PM
If we're going to assume everybody from the past era was on 'roids than I think it's a none issue and he gets in. Does it really matter either? I can assume a guy like Clemens is on 'roids but i've got nothing on him. His numbers say he should get in. I don't know about first ballot though. I believe he won 1 MVP award and an arguement can be made if that season had continued he wouldn't of won it because he got hurt. I think he got his hand broken 3 times getting HBP.

I think Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell is one of the worst deals in the history of professional sports.

DonShula84
12-17-2006, 09:21 PM
I dont think you can keep someone out of the HoF who has never been linked to roids. You may suspect it, but if their name hasnt come up in an investigation and there are no whispers going around that he used (if there are I've never heard them) you cant keep him out imo.

MikeO
12-17-2006, 10:37 PM
I dont think you can keep someone out of the HoF who has never been linked to roids. You may suspect it, but if their name hasnt come up in an investigation and there are no whispers going around that he used (if there are I've never heard them) you cant keep him out imo.

Well than you can't keep McGwire out!!!

You can't say.......well I think he did when it comes to some guys. And say, I don't think he did when it comes to others.

Either you HAVE a failed piss test or you DON'T!

DonShula84
12-17-2006, 11:35 PM
Well than you can't keep McGwire out!!!

You can't say.......well I think he did when it comes to some guys. And say, I don't think he did when it comes to others.

Either you HAVE a failed piss test or you DON'T!

Bagwell hasn't been linked to it though, and McGwires answers in front of Congress make him even more suspicious. I havent seen or heard anything about Bagwell and roids though, he hasnt been called to testify about it or investigated as far I've heard. That's the difference. There are reasons to suspect McGwire beyond he was big and wore down.

finfansince72
12-17-2006, 11:53 PM
He hasn't been linked to it though, and McGwires answers in front of Congress make him even more suspicious. I havent seen or heard anything about Bagwell and roids though, he hasnt been called to testify about it or investigated as far I've heard. That's the difference. There are reasons to suspect McGwire beyond he was big and wore down.

Didnt Canseco say he helped BigMac get steriods and helped him administer them? I know Canseco is a clown but I believe most of what he says about the steriods in baseball and who was taking them.

DonShula84
12-18-2006, 03:35 AM
Didnt Canseco say he helped BigMac get steriods and helped him administer them? I know Canseco is a clown but I believe most of what he says about the steriods in baseball and who was taking them.

yes, Big Mac has been linked to roids, that why I view him differently than Bagwell whose name I've never heard come up before

Cool Calm Mike
12-18-2006, 04:02 AM
Has Frank Thomas ever been linked to steroids? He was kind of in the same situation as Bagwell, as far as production, then injuries and what not.

djfresh47
12-18-2006, 04:39 PM
Has Frank Thomas ever been linked to steroids? He was kind of in the same situation as Bagwell, as far as production, then injuries and what not.

This is just from the book Juicing The Game which came out a few years ago. When there was some sort of testing which could not be held against players the White Sox players did not want to take tests because if a certain amount of players tested positive a system would be put in place. If a player refused to take a test it would be an automatic positive. The White Sox team all wanted to refuse the testing because they wanted a steroid policy. I'm sure some guys on the team were on them because guys on every team were on them. Frank Thomas and Curt Schilling were at the hearings as guys who had no suspicion of 'roid use. If I remember correctly Thomas was there through satellite because he just had ankle surgery.

BigDogsHunt
12-18-2006, 04:57 PM
This guy thinks its a no-brainer selection:

Why Bagwell should be in Hall of Fame
Veteran's numbers stack up with game's best first basemen

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20061107&content_id=1735932&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

Career Stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=hou&playerID=110432

P.S. I will say this regarding Steriods (I havent heard his name mentioned)....but for anyone thinking he did them, it will come out the closer he gets to his vote year. He will have 5 years to watch what happens to all the others before him and see how they are treated and voted.

finfansince72
12-18-2006, 11:10 PM
This guy thinks its a no-brainer selection:

Why Bagwell should be in Hall of Fame
Veteran's numbers stack up with game's best first basemen

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20061107&content_id=1735932&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

Career Stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=hou&playerID=110432

P.S. I will say this regarding Steriods (I havent heard his name mentioned)....but for anyone thinking he did them, it will come out the closer he gets to his vote year. He will have 5 years to watch what happens to all the others before him and see how they are treated and voted.

He has the numbers and is well like by the voters. It might not be fair but its largely a popularity contest besides having the numbers. Look at all the Halls in other sports, the guys with offield problems and who treated the media poorly have a hard time getting in. Bagwell is highly respected and well liked, honestly I dont see any steriod issues with him, I think he gets in easily.