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BAMAPHIN 22
01-08-2007, 11:43 AM
Since Hall of Fame ballots went out in December, sportswriters and columnists have been explaining their reasons for voting or not voting for Mark McGwire in his first year of eligibility. Here is a sampling.

Mercury News Writers Who Voted No

Ann Killion:
``What would I tell my kids, who saw my disgust at the congressional hearings in March 2005 and have heard my opinion over the years? `Sure, I think he cheated, but look at the rate at which he hit homers! Let's enshrine him forever!' Some will say I'm playing God by withholding my vote. That I'm being the morality police. But that's actually what the Hall of Fame asks me to be. Voters are requested to factor in moral conclusions.''

Bud Geracie:
``Would he be a Hall of Famer if he didn't hit 70 home runs in 1998, or 65 the next season, or 583 in his career, or 250 between ages 32 and 35? Is any of that possible without modern medicine? My vote is my answer to those questions.''

Chris Haft:
``His admitted use of androstenedione during 1998 gave his record-breaking home run total the noxious whiff of artificiality, even though andro was legal. . . . I've waited for McGwire's ex-teammates to rise in his defense since he refused to talk about the past before Congress in 2005. But the relative silence, with the notable exception of Tony La Russa, has been ominous -- and telling.''

Mark Purdy:
``I just need to hear more from him. I'm not condemning McGwire to Non-Hallness Hell forever. I just want to hear what the guy did in regard to performance-enhancing substances, why he made those choices and what he thinks about those choices today. Then I can make a fair assessment and decide what to do with my vote.''


Mercury News Writer Who Voted Yes

Dennis Georgatos:
``I voted for Mark McGwire strictly based on his accomplishments on the baseball field, which I felt were worthy of the Hall of Fame. The baseball criteria I can judge. . . . The off-the-field stuff remains a muddle that I really can't make enough sense of to render judgment.''

Others Voting Against McGwire

Monte Poole, Oakland Tribune:
``I don't know enough about what took place in baseball during the late 1990s. Regarding illegal substances within baseball during the so-called `steroids era,' we're still learning what, when, how and -- most especially -- who.''

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/01/07/should-mcgwire-be-in-the-hall-of-fame-baseball-writers-have-their-say/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mercurynews.com%2Fmld%2Fmercurynews%2Fsports%2Fbaseball%2Fmlb%2Fsan_francisco_giants%2F16404080.htm&frame=true

Boik14
01-08-2007, 12:06 PM
Even if he didnt use steroids:

His Ba is only a small notch above above the Kingman level, still relatively poor by HOF standards at 263.

He only had 4-5 great seasons. You need more consistancy then that to be a HOFER.

He never won an MVP

He won 1 Gold Glove back in 1990 and for is career he was only average for the position.

His teams in Oakland had some postseason success, he personally did not. 217 career BA in the postseason. Even his power stats dropped considerably in the postseason wit just 5 hr in 129 abs, well below the 1hr/11-12 abs he averaged during the regular season.

He did not have great rbi numbers relative to his 583 hrs. That tells you as much as anything hes 1 dimensional. 7 100 rbi seasons out of 16 is good not great. Career hes got more K's then RBI.

So no I wouldnt put a 1 dimensional hr hitter who really doesnt do much of anything else better then average in the HOF.

Edit: Upon thinking about it further Id sooner put in Andre Dawson or Jack Morris. Dawson was a much more complete player, brought a more complete skill set as an all around player (better BA, better rbi numbers, better sb, better D) or even Morris who posts both impressive win and ws rings. Morris won rings as the ace of 3 different teams and with 254 wins he boasts an impressive total there as well considering his was the first generation with 5 starters in the rotation instead of 4. This isnt even a real question imo.

Rawlings even admitted that the baseballs used in 99 were more juiced then ever which, forgetting about whether mac did roids or not, impacts the hr totals for every player that year.

Motion
01-08-2007, 12:11 PM
My vote is NO.

MikeO
01-08-2007, 12:26 PM
He will get in eventually, but not for a little while

PhinzN703
01-08-2007, 04:21 PM
You cheat, you don't deserve to get in. End of story

tucker
01-08-2007, 04:40 PM
andro wasnt illegal when he used it..so that shouldnt matter, b/c i doubt he was the only one using it..although i dont know if he is hof material anyways

gillderais
01-08-2007, 04:51 PM
My vote is YES.

Amars
01-08-2007, 04:51 PM
No. not on first ballot. If you put in Mcquire you have to put in Rose. There should be a class of cheater that goes in . Bonds, Mcquire, Rose.

Rocky Raccoon
01-08-2007, 06:36 PM
I would say no too.

Ray Finkle
01-08-2007, 06:53 PM
McGwire should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame.

The whole he cheated so he shouldn't go in is such a weak excuse for several reasons. First how do you know he cheated? Yes we all assume (and yes I believe he did juice) but he never failed a drug test nor was steroids illegal in baseball at the time (and if it was in 1998 there would be no way MLB would let him fail a test). Also adding to the fact that he was facing pitchers would were probably jucing too. Other HOFers have cheated before, like Perry and Cobb. Rose not being in the Hall is different, he could have negatively affected his own team and cost his own team baseball games because of gambling (something Cobb was rumored to do as well).

McGwire saved baseball along with Sosa and Ripken from the strike. He had EVERYONE glued to their seats in 1998. He was one of the best HR hitters during his era which he played. He hit 49 HRs in his Rookie year, winning the ROTY award. He was a gold glove winner, had a career OBP of .394. Anyway Jason Stark wrote two good article on why Big Mac should be in, which talks about other stats McGwire had:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724111

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724114

Also Bill Simmons did too:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070103

I suggest everyone read them. He's going to get in sooner or later and deserves to be.

EDIT: Also I think baseball gets a bad rap. In the NFL a player could get suspended for 4 games for testing positive, possibly win Defensive Player of the Year, make and play in the Pro Bowl and be part of a playoff game half time show and no one makes a stink about it.

finfansince72
01-08-2007, 07:37 PM
Id vote yes. He was a great power hitter, the premeire or close to it power hitter of a generation. Hes not the greatest player ever, but he put up huge numbers on really good teams for a really long time. He was as feared a hitter as anyone of his generation.
He never got caught cheating, its hard to put that up as a reason when theres no proof.

Roman529
01-09-2007, 01:51 AM
My vote is NO.

I am hoping that on Tuesday a guy who is a Colorado Spring's native like me finally gets his just due:

GOOSE GOOSAGE. :tongue:

nyjunc
01-09-2007, 06:28 AM
NO. he wasn't a HOF player w/ performing enhancers. he had a great rookie year when they juiced the ballas then was medciore and injured all the time so he juiced his body and then became a great HR hitter. He was a 1 dimensional hitter, either HR or nothing and he couldn't play defense. Bonds was a great all-around player befroe he started using so he is a HOFer.

Mike13
01-09-2007, 12:43 PM
No maybe not on the first ballot.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 12:52 PM
Gwynn and Ripken automatics (but cant be unanimous since atleast one voter turned in a blank ballot on purpose).

I think Gossage may get in this time as well.

No to McGwire this go round.

FinsNYanksFan13
01-09-2007, 02:32 PM
The guy nearly single-handidly saved baseball (along with Ripken and Sosa). If that doesn't get you in the Hall, nothing does. Vote Big Mac in!

nyjunc
01-09-2007, 02:48 PM
The guy nearly single-handidly saved baseball (along with Ripken and Sosa). If that doesn't get you in the Hall, nothing does. Vote Big Mac in!

He did so using illegal drugs that helped him get to that level. He doesn't belong.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 02:50 PM
He did so using illegal drugs that helped him get to that level. He doesn't belong.

what proof do you have?

unluckyluciano
01-09-2007, 03:10 PM
He did so using illegal drugs that helped him get to that level. He doesn't belong.

Only thing he's admitted to is androstine, a drug that was legal for a year, supposedly when he was using it. If you keep him out they better keep Bonds and Sosa out. All I'm going to say.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 03:12 PM
Only thing he's admitted to is androstine, a drug that was legal for a year, supposedly when he was using it. If you keep him out they better keep Bonds and Sosa out. All I'm going to say.

I think that is quite likely.

What I wonder is when all this is swept under a rug.....no proof for any....all speculation...do the voters ever relent and have a year where Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are all voted in on the same year....a black armband type HoF year.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 03:17 PM
Falls well short this year.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070109&content_id=1775438&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb



As predicted, McGwire fell far short of the vote total needed for enshrinement in Cooperstown when the balloting results were announced on Tuesday. The former Cardinals and A's slugger was named by 128 of the 545 voters, or 23.5 percent.

nyjunc
01-09-2007, 03:17 PM
what proof do you have?

Oh please, we all know he used illegal drugs. the man couldn't even speak in front of comgress- do you think if he just use andro he would had that problem? look at the size of him from the late 80s to the mid 90s. The guy was a great HR hitter(thanks to drugs) but was NEVER a great player.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 03:22 PM
Oh please, we all know he used illegal drugs. the man couldn't even speak in front of comgress- do you think if he just use andro he would had that problem? look at the size of him from the late 80s to the mid 90s. The guy was a great HR hitter(thanks to drugs) but was NEVER a great player.


:shakeno: (court of public opinion) Thats a great "we all know" prosecution approach.

GreenMonster
01-09-2007, 03:23 PM
NO. he wasn't a HOF player w/ performing enhancers. he had a great rookie year when they juiced the ballas then was medciore and injured all the time so he juiced his body and then became a great HR hitter. He was a 1 dimensional hitter, either HR or nothing and he couldn't play defense. Bonds was a great all-around player befroe he started using so he is a HOFer.


So they both cheated but Bonds gets the pass because he was a better player pre steroids???

nyjunc
01-09-2007, 03:27 PM
:shakeno: (court of public opinion) Thats a great "we all know" prosecution approach.

nah, let's put our heads in the sand and say there's no failed tests so guys like McGwire, bonds and Sosa must be innocent:rolleyes:


So they both cheated but Bonds gets the pass because he was a better player pre steroids???

I hate bonds and hope he doesn't make it BUT he was a great player pre becoming a hulk. Mcgwire was NEVER a great player w/ or w/o drugs.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 03:31 PM
nah, let's put our heads in the sand and say there's no failed tests so guys like McGwire, bonds and Sosa must be innocent:rolleyes:.

yeah, your way is so much better! :shakeno: I am shocked our legal system doesnt just follow your lead.

GreenMonster
01-09-2007, 03:35 PM
nah, let's put our heads in the sand and say there's no failed tests so guys like McGwire, bonds and Sosa must be innocent:rolleyes:



I hate bonds and hope he doesn't make it BUT he was a great player pre becoming a hulk. Mcgwire was NEVER a great player w/ or w/o drugs.

Was he on steroids in 1987 when he won Rookie of the year and slugged .618 .. Also since he made 12 all-star teams around which one did he start juicing at or has he been on roids since his ROTY.. Please enlighten us..

nyjunc
01-09-2007, 03:47 PM
Was he on steroids in 1987 when he won Rookie of the year and slugged .618 .. Also since he made 12 all-star teams around which one did he start juicing at or has he been on roids since his ROTY.. Please enlighten us..

That was the juiced ball year if you remember(I am not sure how old you are). In 1986 the leaders hit 40, 35, 34, 33 and 33 HRs while in 1987 the leaders hit 49(McGwire and Andre Dawson and dawson only hit above 30 Hrs TWICE in his career and this was his only 40+ season and he almost hit 50),47, and 5 guys hit 34 HRs then in '88 HRs went down again to 42, 34, 3228 and 28.

From 1986-1994 McGwire hit a HR once every 14 ABs, from 1995-2001 he hit a HR every 7 ABs. he did this by just learning the strike zone better? By watching video? come on. Up through 1995 he came close to hitting 50 HRs ONE time and that was the juiced ball year then he's hitting 52, 58, 70, 65?

I am sure he just worked really, reallt hard in the 2nd half of his career:rolleyes:

Vertical Limit
01-09-2007, 04:09 PM
He will get in eventually, but not for a little while
Would you vote him in?

tucker
01-09-2007, 04:18 PM
the only thing is steroids werent banned, which means they were free game..andro, which mcgwire admitted to, WAS LEGAL...so if you dont have proof that he did steroids and only have proof to andro then he should be inducted..but not first ballot...i dont even know if he was good enough to be considered for the hof

Ray Finkle
01-09-2007, 06:52 PM
That was the juiced ball year if you remember(I am not sure how old you are). In 1986 the leaders hit 40, 35, 34, 33 and 33 HRs while in 1987 the leaders hit 49(McGwire and Andre Dawson and dawson only hit above 30 Hrs TWICE in his career and this was his only 40+ season and he almost hit 50),47, and 5 guys hit 34 HRs then in '88 HRs went down again to 42, 34, 3228 and 28.

From 1986-1994 McGwire hit a HR once every 14 ABs, from 1995-2001 he hit a HR every 7 ABs. he did this by just learning the strike zone better? By watching video? come on. Up through 1995 he came close to hitting 50 HRs ONE time and that was the juiced ball year then he's hitting 52, 58, 70, 65?

I am sure he just worked really, reallt hard in the 2nd half of his career:rolleyes:

And how do we know none of those pitchers McGwire faced were juicing as well? Therefore can't we assume the playing field was "even" at times?

BAMAPHIN 22
01-09-2007, 08:45 PM
McGwire's Hall hopes rest on confession

A confession would liberate Mark McGwire, increasing his chances of redemption by an ever-forgiving public, not to mention the 10-year members of the Baseball Writers Association of America who vote for the Hall of Fame.


A confession would end the talk that McGwire is hiding something, forcing voters to view him for what he is — a product of his era, the Steroid Era, and hardly the only star player suspected of using illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

But a confession, if it is indeed warranted, is not coming anytime soon; the risk for McGwire, at a time when federal investigators are still trying to crack the steroids scandal, would be too great.

Thus, McGwire's induction to the Hall remains on hold, perhaps permanently.
His first year of eligibility produced the expected result: McGwire received 23.5 percent of the vote, far short of the 75 percent required for election.

While the vote can be interpreted as a sharp rebuke to McGwire, who was considered a first-ballot lock as recently as three years ago, it is in no way a fatal blow to his candidacy.

Players remain on the ballot a maximum of 15 years, and reliever Bruce Sutter and outfielder Billy Williams are Hall of Famers whose initial results were comparable to McGwire's.

Sutter received only 24 percent of the vote in his first year of eligibility and waited 13 years to get elected. Williams received only 23.3 percent of the vote in his first year and was elected on his sixth try.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6351322?FSO1&ATT=HCP&GT1=9012

Boik14
01-09-2007, 11:23 PM
:shakeno: (court of public opinion) Thats a great "we all know" prosecution approach.
Even if he didnt use steroids:

His Ba is only a small notch above above the Kingman level, still relatively poor by HOF standards at 263.

He only had 4-5 great seasons. You need more consistancy then that to be a HOFER.

He never won an MVP

He won 1 Gold Glove back in 1990 and for is career he was only average for the position.

His teams in Oakland had some postseason success, he personally did not. 217 career BA in the postseason. Even his power stats dropped considerably in the postseason wit just 5 hr in 129 abs, well below the 1hr/11-12 abs he averaged during the regular season.

He did not have great rbi numbers relative to his 583 hrs. That tells you as much as anything hes 1 dimensional. 7 100 rbi seasons out of 16 is good not great. Career hes got more K's then RBI.

So no I wouldnt put a 1 dimensional hr hitter who really doesnt do much of anything else better then average in the HOF.

Edit: Upon thinking about it further Id sooner put in Andre Dawson or Jack Morris. Dawson was a much more complete player, brought a more complete skill set as an all around player (better BA, better rbi numbers, better sb, better D) or even Morris who posts both impressive win and ws rings. Morris won rings as the ace of 3 different teams and with 254 wins he boasts an impressive total there as well considering his was the first generation with 5 starters in the rotation instead of 4. This isnt even a real question imo.

Rawlings even admitted that the baseballs used in 99 were more juiced then ever which, forgetting about whether mac did roids or not, impacts the hr totals for every player that year.

nyjunc
01-10-2007, 07:39 AM
And how do we know none of those pitchers McGwire faced were juicing as well? Therefore can't we assume the playing field was "even" at times?

Maybe, that's a fir point but w/ or w/o steroids I don't think he was ever a great player. canseco was a much better player than Mcgwire and he'll never get in.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 09:32 AM
The following is the list of MLB rules McGwire broke as a player...


Here's that same list in Spanish...


...and in Japanese....



Until someone can show me that McGwire broke a rule that was in place at the time he was a player, I see no reason to keep him out of the HOF. Did he use performance-enhancing drugs? Probably, but they were entirely legal at the time. We're going to punish him after the fact for simply taking advantage of the rules that were in place at the time? Tin pot dictators apply more reasonable standards of justice than that.

Amphetamine usage has been as common as dirt in MLB history. Like steroids, amphetamines are also an illegal drug for which there was nothing written in MLB's drug policy. Like steroids, amphetamines also are taken with the goal of increasing performance (quicker reaction time). Should we purge the HOF of suspected amphetamine users? Because if we keep McGwire out because of the fact that he may or may not have used steroids, we'd better be consistent.

Incidentally, Rose and Jackson are entirely different cases than McGwire. Rose gambled on baseball. Whether you believe that's acceptable or not is immaterial; it's explicitly prohibited. As for Jackson, there's a mountain of proof that he took money from gamblers to throw the 1919 World Series. The fact that he his .385 in that series is immaterial; it's taking the money to throw the series that keeps him properly on the banned list.

As for his stats as a player, McGwire belongs. Was he a defensive liability for most of his career? Sure. Of course, since we've already more or less discounted the value of defense at first base in HOF balloting (as evidenced by the fact that Keith Hernandez has fallen off the ballot entirely), that shouldn't be counted against him. McGwire produced a mountain of runs. 7th on the all-time home run list and a .394 OBP and a .983 OPS (13th all-time). He was a 12-time all-star, and definitely passes the "pitchers were scared to death of him" test that Red Sox fans rely on for Jim Rice's candidacy.

We'll see if he gets in; I'm not so sure. Personally, I think some of this pompous moral outrage will subside over the years as some of these attention-starved columnists move on to other subjects upon which to try and enforce their back-asswards brand of morality on the rest of us. But his first time showing was extremely weak (he didn't even crack 25%), and that doesn't bode well for him.

nyjunc
01-10-2007, 09:43 AM
What about laws he broke?


Anyway, I don't think he's a HOF player even w/ steroids. he is a glorified Dave Kingman, McGwire was NEVER a great player he was a great HR hitter just like Kingman. Put kingman on steroids and you have Mcgwire. He rarely played in big games and when he did he was bad. the man has just 5 Hrs in 129 career postseason ABs and is a lifetime .217 postseason hitter. mcGwire was a freak show and that's it, he could hit the ball a mile(drug aided) and that's it.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 10:08 AM
What about laws he broke?

What about them? I'm pretty sure amphetamines are illegal in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The difference between steroids and amphetamines in this discussion is nil.

If we're taking guys out for breaking the law, how about taking out Juan Marichal? He committed assault on John Roseboro, with about 50,000 witnesses present. Or Nolan Ryan, for beating the crap out of Robin Ventura? Or any player who ever got in a fight in a bar? How about removing Mickey Mantle for a few hundred instances of public intoxication (and probably drunk driving, too)? By the time we're done with this witch hunt, we'll have about 15 guys in the Hall.


Anyway, I don't think he's a HOF player even w/ steroids. he is a glorified Dave Kingman, McGwire was NEVER a great player he was a great HR hitter just like Kingman. Put kingman on steroids and you have Mcgwire. He rarely played in big games and when he did he was bad. the man has just 5 Hrs in 129 career postseason ABs and is a lifetime .217 postseason hitter. mcGwire was a freak show and that's it, he could hit the ball a mile(drug aided) and that's it.

Good call. I mean, there's only 96 points of on base percentage and 110 points of slugging percentage worth of difference there.

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 11:03 AM
The following is the list of MLB rules McGwire broke as a player...

Here's that same list in Spanish...

...and in Japanese.....

:lol: nice to see you are still in the "World Baseball Classic" spirit!

PhinzN703
01-10-2007, 12:41 PM
:shakeno: (court of public opinion) Thats a great "we all know" prosecution approach.

Obviously none of us know the TRUE answer to whether he's a doper but you would take a look at the evidence (his body from the 80s to today and his Congress hearing) and form an opinion on it.

Sure he hit a bunch of HRs but as others have said, his defense was shoddy and he was one dimensional.

He'll probably get in at some point, just not the next few years

Enforcerfin33
01-10-2007, 12:53 PM
Cheating is cheating, but MLB doesnt see it that way, its all on if your publicly known to do it or not. But yes eventually he will be in.

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 12:54 PM
Obviously none of us know the TRUE answer to whether he's a doper but you would take a look at the evidence (his body from the 80s to today and his Congress hearing) and form an opinion on it.

Sure he hit a bunch of HRs but as others have said, his defense was shoddy and he was one dimensional.

He'll probably get in at some point, just not the next few years

Hard to argue, as I stated earlier....What I wonder is when all this "juiced era" is swept under a rug, and congressional or grand jury stuff plays out.....with no proof for anyone....all speculation...do the voters ever relent and have a "special" year where Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are all voted in on the same year....label it the black-armband-type HoF year.

djfresh47
01-10-2007, 04:34 PM
McGwire should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame.

The whole he cheated so he shouldn't go in is such a weak excuse for several reasons. First how do you know he cheated? Yes we all assume (and yes I believe he did juice) but he never failed a drug test nor was steroids illegal in baseball at the time (and if it was in 1998 there would be no way MLB would let him fail a test). Also adding to the fact that he was facing pitchers would were probably jucing too. Other HOFers have cheated before, like Perry and Cobb. Rose not being in the Hall is different, he could have negatively affected his own team and cost his own team baseball games because of gambling (something Cobb was rumored to do as well).

McGwire saved baseball along with Sosa and Ripken from the strike. He had EVERYONE glued to their seats in 1998. He was one of the best HR hitters during his era which he played. He hit 49 HRs in his Rookie year, winning the ROTY award. He was a gold glove winner, had a career OBP of .394. Anyway Jason Stark wrote two good article on why Big Mac should be in, which talks about other stats McGwire had:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724111

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724114

Also Bill Simmons did too:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070103

I suggest everyone read them. He's going to get in sooner or later and deserves to be.

EDIT: Also I think baseball gets a bad rap. In the NFL a player could get suspended for 4 games for testing positive, possibly win Defensive Player of the Year, make and play in the Pro Bowl and be part of a playoff game half time show and no one makes a stink about it.

I've said in this in other threads. We assume guilt of all baseball players but then we believe Merriman when he is basically using the same excuse "I have never knowingly used steroids." I think more football players are using performance enhancing drugs but nobody will ever know. HGH testing is brought up in relation to baseball yet the NFL does not test either and I never hear a word about that. He's got the numbers and as much as people want to bash him now, he was the reason many people came back to baseball. He never tested positive which is why I think he gets in.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 08:59 PM
[/B]

I've said in this in other threads. We assume guilt of all baseball players but then we believe Merriman when he is basically using the same excuse "I have never knowingly used steroids." I think more football players are using performance enhancing drugs but nobody will ever know. HGH testing is brought up in relation to baseball yet the NFL does not test either and I never hear a word about that. He's got the numbers and as much as people want to bash him now, he was the reason many people came back to baseball. He never tested positive which is why I think he gets in.

You make some good points. Unfortunately, they're almost certainly lost on more than 25% of BBWAA voters. The fact that McGwire has never once tested positive, nor has he ever been accused by even his harshest detractors of breaking any rule that was in the game during his playing years, is not enough for them. They'd rather take Jose Canseco's book for all the proof they require.

It's amazing; I always figured Canseco was probably a functional illiterate, and yet, he's turning into the Bob Woodward of his time. Go figure.

Incidentally, there's definitely a double standard between baseball and football, but I think it's due to a few things. First, the NFL has historically had a more stringent drug policy, so we see players get punished by missing time, and move on. In baseball, there's that lingering doubt, so pompous newspaper writers take it upon themselves to dole out punishment in cases like this, and hard evidence be damned. Second, MLB has historically been held to a higher standard of ethics than football (college and pro), fairly or not.

Boik14
01-11-2007, 01:26 AM
You make some good points. Unfortunately, they're almost certainly lost on more than 25% of BBWAA voters. The fact that McGwire has never once tested positive, nor has he ever been accused by even his harshest detractors of breaking any rule that was in the game during his playing years, is not enough for them. They'd rather take Jose Canseco's book for all the proof they require.

It's amazing; I always figured Canseco was probably a functional illiterate, and yet, he's turning into the Bob Woodward of his time. Go figure.

Incidentally, there's definitely a double standard between baseball and football, but I think it's due to a few things. First, the NFL has historically had a more stringent drug policy, so we see players get punished by missing time, and move on. In baseball, there's that lingering doubt, so pompous newspaper writers take it upon themselves to dole out punishment in cases like this, and hard evidence be damned. Second, MLB has historically been held to a higher standard of ethics than football (college and pro), fairly or not.
It is fair they get held to a higher standard of ethics because they have had more problems upholding the integrity of their sport. Gambling, rascism (fairly or not is most associated with baseball, people forget about hoops and football during that era), steroids, etc. You dont hear about those things as much in any other sport. So yeah, you need more stringent guidelines and if the sport themselves wont hold their players to those guidelines im happy some members of the press will. We have to take in to account who is watching those games, what kids and even adults will have a misconception of right/wrong and fair or unfair in sports if the league doesnt do it. I love baseball too much to see it from any other perspective then from a purist perspective.

djfresh47
01-11-2007, 01:44 AM
You make some good points. Unfortunately, they're almost certainly lost on more than 25% of BBWAA voters. The fact that McGwire has never once tested positive, nor has he ever been accused by even his harshest detractors of breaking any rule that was in the game during his playing years, is not enough for them. They'd rather take Jose Canseco's book for all the proof they require.

It's amazing; I always figured Canseco was probably a functional illiterate, and yet, he's turning into the Bob Woodward of his time. Go figure.

Incidentally, there's definitely a double standard between baseball and football, but I think it's due to a few things. First, the NFL has historically had a more stringent drug policy, so we see players get punished by missing time, and move on. In baseball, there's that lingering doubt, so pompous newspaper writers take it upon themselves to dole out punishment in cases like this, and hard evidence be damned. Second, MLB has historically been held to a higher standard of ethics than football (college and pro), fairly or not.

Rafael Palmeiro made Jose Canseco a credible source. One can look at it saying "he named him so everybody else is guilty," or "he's trying to see what actually sticks." The funny thing about 'roids is that subconsciously he admit guilt of some guys yet others nobody would ever even try to accuse. If fans want to admit guilt on everybody for baseball than "golden boys," like Griffey and Jeter gotta be considered guilty before innocent. I think it's ridiculous but I also think voters holding guys off ballots because others did not get in on the first time is ridiculous.

King Felix
01-11-2007, 01:54 AM
who here thinks bonds will go in on first ballot?

djfresh47
01-11-2007, 02:10 AM
who here thinks bonds will go in on first ballot?

Bonds was a HOF player before he allegedly used 'roids. He went from a top 20 guy to a top 5 guy with his alleged use. He should get in on the first ballot but with the ridiculous voters it'll be interesting.

Boik14
01-11-2007, 10:19 AM
who here thinks bonds will go in on first ballot? I dont think he will unless he can prove he was clean. If he was clean he deserves the first ballot.

BigDogsHunt
01-11-2007, 11:33 AM
who here thinks bonds will go in on first ballot?

At this rate, he keeps giving voters reasons not to vote him in on 1st ballot!

brandon27
01-14-2007, 06:19 PM
I say no. Im glad he didnt get in this year. I think eventually he will though. But I dont see the need to honor a guys achievements while he was taking performance enhancing drugs of any kind whether it was legal or illegal at the time. Also, aside from those few big years at the end of his career with all the HR's i dont feel him to be HOF type material... at least not this early. Now with Barry Bonds... just testing positive for amphetimines.... lets face it. I think its pretty indesputible that this guys been juicing for years. He can call himself a victim and all that other BS all he wants, but as far as im concerned his name should be stripped from the record books completely. Putting guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds into the Hall... does nothing but continue to glorify guys making a bad example for everyone... but baseball does nothing about it... because these HR races and records, lead to ratings and profits.... The all mighty dollar strikes again...

just my two cents.

Nappy Roots
01-14-2007, 06:22 PM
Bonds was a HOF player before he allegedly used 'roids. He went from a top 20 guy to a top 5 guy with his alleged use. He should get in on the first ballot but with the ridiculous voters it'll be interesting.


what year was his "alleged" use? cuz i think hes been a top 5 guy since the early 90s.

djfresh47
01-14-2007, 07:22 PM
what year was his "alleged" use? cuz i think hes been a top 5 guy since the early 90s.


I think it was '99.

Ray Finkle
01-15-2007, 12:36 AM
I say no. Im glad he didnt get in this year. I think eventually he will though. But I dont see the need to honor a guys achievements while he was taking performance enhancing drugs of any kind whether it was legal or illegal at the time. Also, aside from those few big years at the end of his career with all the HR's i dont feel him to be HOF type material... at least not this early. Now with Barry Bonds... just testing positive for amphetimines.... lets face it. I think its pretty indesputible that this guys been juicing for years. He can call himself a victim and all that other BS all he wants, but as far as im concerned his name should be stripped from the record books completely. Putting guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds into the Hall... does nothing but continue to glorify guys making a bad example for everyone... but baseball does nothing about it... because these HR races and records, lead to ratings and profits.... The all mighty dollar strikes again...

just my two cents.

The problem is without a failed drug test or documents/receipts there's no proof that any of those 3 guys took them. Yes they all grew to the size of The Hulk but still it wasn't illegal then and they were never caught.

Look at some of the guys that were caught using: Alex Sanchez, Ryan Franklin. Would anyone ever guessed they were juicing? Who's to say someone like a Greg Maddux wasn't on them? We don't know but because he's not jacked up we assume he's not. We'll never know, so you can't point your fingers at one guy because then it turns into a witch hunt.

MikeO
01-15-2007, 12:51 AM
The problem is without a failed drug test or documents/receipts there's no proof that any of those 3 guys took them. Yes they all grew to the size of The Hulk but still it wasn't illegal then and they were never caught.

Look at some of the guys that were caught using: Alex Sanchez, Ryan Franklin. Would anyone ever guessed they were juicing? Who's to say someone like a Greg Maddux wasn't on them? We don't know but because he's not jacked up we assume he's not. We'll never know, so you can't point your fingers at one guy because then it turns into a witch hunt.

Big Mac's actions at the CONGRESS HEARINGS sealed his fate. No innocent man acts that way!!

phunwin
01-15-2007, 10:35 AM
Big Mac's actions at the CONGRESS HEARINGS sealed his fate. No innocent man acts that way!!

Thank you, Judge Oliva.

CharlestonPhan
01-15-2007, 11:49 AM
Since Hall of Fame ballots went out in December, sportswriters and columnists have been explaining their reasons for voting or not voting for Mark McGwire in his first year of eligibility. Here is a sampling.

Mercury News Writers Who Voted No

Ann Killion:

Bud Geracie:

Chris Haft:

Mark Purdy:


Mercury News Writer Who Voted Yes

Dennis Georgatos:

Others Voting Against McGwire

Monte Poole, Oakland Tribune:

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/01/07/should-mcgwire-be-in-the-hall-of-fame-baseball-writers-have-their-say/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mercurynews.com%2Fmld%2Fmercurynews%2Fsports%2Fbaseball%2Fmlb%2Fsan_francisco_giants%2F16404080.htm&frame=true

i hope these guys remember their votes and rationales when it comes time to consider Barry Bonds for the HOF...

some of the ESPN talking heads who argue in favor of Barry Bonds (prior to his positive amphetamine test), argue against McGwire. i could not figure out their logic.

and for the record, i am against both of them getting into the HOF.

Roger Maris hit 61 while smoking 2 packs a day, losing his hair due to nervousness the media onslaught caused, and drinking with world class professional drinker Mickey Mantle. and he ain't in the HOF... :)

(yes i know the rest of his career was marginal, it was a joke.)

MikeO
01-15-2007, 01:22 PM
Thank you, Judge Oliva.

anytime! :D

MikeO
01-15-2007, 01:24 PM
i hope these guys remember their votes and rationales when it comes time to consider Barry Bonds for the HOF...

some of the ESPN talking heads who argue in favor of Barry Bonds (prior to his positive amphetamine test), argue against McGwire. i could not figure out their logic.

and for the record, i am against both of them getting into the HOF.

Roger Maris hit 61 while smoking 2 packs a day, losing his hair due to nervousness the media onslaught caused, and drinking with world class professional drinker Mickey Mantle. and he ain't in the HOF... :)

(yes i know the rest of his career was marginal, it was a joke.)

Bonds is different. Bonds had a hall of fame resume prior to the home runs he started hitting (due to steroids). Bonds is/was a hall of fame player taking the steroids and home runs out of this.

Big Mac would ONLY get in the hall because he hit over 500+ home runs. That's it. He sucked on the field, his other stats are average to below average across the board. So, the ONLY reason he woudl get into the hall is because of steroids and because of the home runs.

It's comparing apples and oranges.

Ray Finkle
01-15-2007, 01:53 PM
i hope these guys remember their votes and rationales when it comes time to consider Barry Bonds for the HOF...

some of the ESPN talking heads who argue in favor of Barry Bonds (prior to his positive amphetamine test), argue against McGwire. i could not figure out their logic.

and for the record, i am against both of them getting into the HOF.

Roger Maris hit 61 while smoking 2 packs a day, losing his hair due to nervousness the media onslaught caused, and drinking with world class professional drinker Mickey Mantle. and he ain't in the HOF... :)

(yes i know the rest of his career was marginal, it was a joke.)

You have to remember that these are the same writers who back in 1998 when McGwire was putting butts in seats, and getting people to watch baseball again on TV were praising the guy, saying how great he was. Even back then there was talk about him being on the juice yet everyone covered it up because of what he was doing. Some of those writers even made money off of McGwire by writing books about the HR race and how great he is.

How things change so much in 9 years when everyone figured he was juicing in the first place is the thing that really doesn't make much sense. And again there was no rule saying riods were illegal in baseball then.