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BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 03:04 PM
Ripken = 98.53% (3rd highest all time, highest position player ever)
Gwynn = 97.1%

bummer.....Gossage, Rice, Dawson, and Blyleven were next and close but no cigar for 2007.

Gossage just missed with 71.2%


Big Mac = 23.5%

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 03:14 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070109&content_id=1775441&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb



NEW YORK -- As anticipated, the dynamic duo of eight-time National League batting champion Tony Gwynn and Iron Man Cal Ripken Jr. earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Tuesday, both having attained nearly the highest percentage of votes in history.

On the ballot for the first time, the pair will be inducted into the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown on July 29. They will be joined by any candidates elected in the Hall of Fame Veterans Committee election, the results of which will be announced on Feb. 27.

Ripken garnered 98.53 percent of the vote, the third highest in balloting history done by veteran members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, but the most for a position player. Ripken finished behind Tom Seaver (98.83 in 1992) and Nolan Ryan (98.79 in 1999). Gwynn's percentage of 97.6 percent, based on his 532 votes, ranks seventh all-time.

Mark McGwire, also a ballot newcomer, fell well short of election, his name appearing on less than a quarter of the record 545 ballots cast, two of which were left completely blank.

There is good news and bad news for Rich "Goose" Gossage, the reliever who is creeping ever so close to his day in the Cooperstown sun. The bad news is that this time Gossage came up 21 votes shy of the 75 percent needed to ascend to the Hall. The good news is that with a much thinner ballot next year, Gossage seems to be on the cusp.

On the ballot for the eighth year, the Goose came in at 71.2 percent, an increase from his 64.6 percent a year ago. In the history of the BBWAA Hall of Fame voting, no candidate has ever received at least 70 percent in an election without eventually gaining a place in Cooperstown. Most recently, Don Sutton (73.2 percent in 1997) and Gaylord Perry (72.1 percent) gained election the very next year.

tucker
01-09-2007, 04:19 PM
what about dale murphy?

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 04:40 PM
Dale Murphy (50 votes - 9.2%)


Complete Results:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2007/election/results.htm

Roman529
01-09-2007, 04:59 PM
Goose should be there next year.

BigDogsHunt
01-09-2007, 05:10 PM
Goose should be there next year.

I would agree (as long as he doesnt tick off any voters between now and then)


In the history of the BBWAA Hall of Fame voting, no candidate has ever received at least 70 percent in an election without eventually gaining a place in Cooperstown. Most recently, Don Sutton (73.2 percent in 1997) and Gaylord Perry (72.1 percent) gained election the very next year.

Section126
01-09-2007, 05:48 PM
There were five FOOLS that voted for Cal Ripken..But DID NOT vote for Gywnn.

They must revoke those guys ballots forever.

FinsNYanksFan13
01-09-2007, 06:22 PM
There were five FOOLS that voted for Cal Ripken..But DID NOT vote for Gywnn.

They must revoke those guys ballots forever.



There were a couple of writers who protested voting this season because guys like Caminiti, Canseco, and McGwire were on the ballot so that should explain why they didn't get a few votes. For everyone that handed in a ballot and excluded Gwynn and Ripkin, you 1,000 percent right, they should have their rights taken away and should be exposed to the public!

Rocky Raccoon
01-09-2007, 07:50 PM
Ripken and Gwynn, both class acts and 2 of my all time favorite players. Congrats to both of them!

SuavePhin
01-09-2007, 07:57 PM
damn, i thought for sure Cal would get 100%

finfansince72
01-09-2007, 08:01 PM
Anyone that didnt vote for Gwynn or Ripken should never be allowed to vote again. If they didnt vote in some silly protest they should have their priviledges taken away as well. Why protest? Just vote no and move on. The voters for the baseball HOF are idiots who take personal grudges against certain players way too far.

Ray Finkle
01-09-2007, 09:17 PM
Getting 100% of the votes is overrated. If people like Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Cy Young, Ty Cobb and Joe D never got 100% then neither should have Ripken or Gywnn. I doubt they even care if they got 90% or the 70%.

Everyone knows some of the writers are jerks/jokes and won't vote for someone just to "be different" or won't vote for a certain player because he had a bad experience or because that player played for a rival team. It's a shame but those types of writers are thankfully few.

Section126
01-09-2007, 10:25 PM
Gywnn...20 seasons...a .338 lifetime average.

Think about that for a while.

BTW...current LOCK Hall of Famers?

I say:

Clemens
Maddux
Jeter
A-Rod
Ramirez

DonShula84
01-09-2007, 10:42 PM
Getting 100% of the votes is overrated. If people like Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Cy Young, Ty Cobb and Joe D never got 100% then neither should have Ripken or Gywnn. I doubt they even care if they got 90% or the 70%.

Everyone knows some of the writers are jerks/jokes and won't vote for someone just to "be different" or won't vote for a certain player because he had a bad experience or because that player played for a rival team. It's a shame but those types of writers are thankfully few.

I know one voter who didnt have them on his ballot said he did it because he knew they were a lock so he put other people on his ballot who would get less consideration. Guess it kind of makes sense but I dont really agree with it.

spydertl79
01-09-2007, 10:47 PM
Gywnn...20 seasons...a .338 lifetime average.

Think about that for a while.

BTW...current LOCK Hall of Famers?

I say:

Clemens
Maddux
Jeter
A-Rod
Ramirez
Barry Bonds
Ichiro

DonShula84
01-09-2007, 10:52 PM
Barry Bonds
Ichiro

How can you say Bonds is a lock after what we just saw with Big Mac?

Ray Finkle
01-09-2007, 11:50 PM
Gywnn...20 seasons...a .338 lifetime average.

Think about that for a while.

BTW...current LOCK Hall of Famers?

I say:

Clemens
Maddux
Jeter
A-Rod
Ramirez

Adding to the list:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Ken Griffey Jr.
Trevor Hoffman

FinsNYanksFan13
01-10-2007, 12:13 AM
Hall of Fame LOCKS IMO!

Griffey
Piazza
Pudge
Glavine
Maddux
A-Rod
Clemens
Randy Johnson
Bonds
Mariano
Pedro
Biggio
Smoltz
Frank Thomas
Hoffman
Manny



Borderline

Thome
Jeter
Ichiro
Sheffield
Andruw Jones
Schilling


That's my opinion. I might be leaving 1 or 2 guys out but I don't have time to go look them up!

Ray Finkle
01-10-2007, 12:20 AM
Hall of Fame LOCKS IMO!

Griffey
Piazza
Pudge
Glavine
Maddux
A-Rod
Clemens
Randy Johnson
Bonds
Mariano
Pedro
Biggio
Smoltz
Frank Thomas
Hoffman
Manny



Borderline

Thome
Jeter
Ichiro
Sheffield
Andruw Jones
Schilling


That's my opinion. I might be leaving 1 or 2 guys out but I don't have time to go look them up!

Good post. But in my opinion there's no way that Jeter is borderline. He's a lock. He'll be the 3rd best SS in the history of baseball when he retires (behind Ripken and Wagner).

I think it's too early to tell with Jones, Ichiro or Thome. They need to put together a few more good years (unless Jones gets in on just his glove alone). Schilling is an interesting case, you could argue back and forth for hours whether or not he is, this last year could certainly help his case. Sheffield is an interesting case too because of the whole steriod thing, I'm on the fence with him.

UCFinfan86
01-10-2007, 12:47 AM
Jeter is a lock, Captain of one what 3 or 4 World Series teams. I believe Allstar team just about every year he played as well.

Section126
01-10-2007, 01:18 AM
Barry Bonds
Ichiro

Bonds gets in second time around? The steroid suspicions afterall did keep McGwire out on the first ballot. Ichiro is a lock if he does this 6 more seasons.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 09:47 AM
Getting 100% of the votes is overrated. If people like Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Cy Young, Ty Cobb and Joe D never got 100% then neither should have Ripken or Gywnn. I doubt they even care if they got 90% or the 70%.

Everyone knows some of the writers are jerks/jokes and won't vote for someone just to "be different" or won't vote for a certain player because he had a bad experience or because that player played for a rival team. It's a shame but those types of writers are thankfully few.

Thank you! I do not understand why people are making such a big stink out of the "they weren't unanimous!" thing. Who cares? They're in the Hall of Fame. Isn't that enough?

Is it stupid not to vote for Ripken and Gwynn? Of course it is. Is that guy who voted for no one because he wanted to make a statement on the "Steroid Era" a pompous jackass? Of course he is. But you can't take someone's vote away just because they didn't vote for this guy or that. This is an extremely subjective process, and therefore, there has to be some allowance for bizarre opinions. Ripken and Gwynn are Hall of Famers, and the rest of it doesn't matter. Believe me, I've been to the Hall of Fame several times, and nowhere on the player's plaque does it say "elected with X% of the vote".

Gossage should get in next time, and it's about flippin' time. He had a big jump in votes, and I think voters thought "huh, if we're going to vote in Bruce Sutter, we'd better elect Gossage, too". I don't think anyone else who was on this year's ballot will make it via the BBWWA vote, though. Jim Rice's candidacy appears to have hit its highest level of support, and next year's election is his last on the ballot. Maybe the Vets Committee will induct him.

As for current HOF'ers, I pretty much agree with everything Ray Finkle said. Jeter would only miss the HOF if his numbers fall off a cliff in the next two years. I'd note one exception, though: Smoltz isn't a lock. I'd bet on him to get in, but he's going to have a strange candidacy.

Ray Finkle
01-10-2007, 10:44 AM
Gossage should get in next time, and it's about flippin' time. He had a big jump in votes, and I think voters thought "huh, if we're going to vote in Bruce Sutter, we'd better elect Gossage, too". I don't think anyone else who was on this year's ballot will make it via the BBWWA vote, though. Jim Rice's candidacy appears to have hit its highest level of support, and next year's election is his last on the ballot. Maybe the Vets Committee will induct him.

As for current HOF'ers, I pretty much agree with everything Ray Finkle said. Jeter would only miss the HOF if his numbers fall off a cliff in the next two years. I'd note one exception, though: Smoltz isn't a lock. I'd bet on him to get in, but he's going to have a strange candidacy.

The Goose will and should get in finally. And it's about time. I think Rice will get in too next year. His drop was expected this year because of Ripken and Gywnn.

Smoltz will get in and he deserves to in my opinion, he’ll be the only pitcher in baseball history with 200 plus wins and 150 saves. He won a Cy Young, and has been one of the more dominating pitchers during the “juice era”. The fact that he was dominating as both a starter and closer pushes him in.

UCFinfan86
01-10-2007, 10:48 AM
Who is in the running for the hall next year?

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 10:55 AM
Who is in the running for the hall next year?

Everyone that had at least 5% of the votes this past year:

Rich "Goose" Gossage 71.2%
Jim Rice 63.5%
Andre Dawson 56.7%
Bert Blyleven 47.7%
Lee Smith 39.8%
Jack Morris 37.1%
Mark McGwire 23.5%
Tommy John 22.9%
Steve Garvey 21.1%
Dave Concepcion 13.6%
Alan Trammell 13.4%
Dave Parker 11.4%
Don Mattingly 54 9.9%
Dale Murphy 9.2%
Harold Baines 5.3%

New for 2008:
Shawon Dunston, Travis Fryman, David Justice, Mike Morgan, Tim Raines, Randy Velarde

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 10:59 AM
Thank you! I do not understand why people are making such a big stink out of the "they weren't unanimous!" thing. Who cares? They're in the Hall of Fame. Isn't that enough?

Is it stupid not to vote for Ripken and Gwynn? Of course it is. Is that guy who voted for no one because he wanted to make a statement on the "Steroid Era" a pompous jackass? Of course he is. But you can't take someone's vote away just because they didn't vote for this guy or that. This is an extremely subjective process, and therefore, there has to be some allowance for bizarre opinions. Ripken and Gwynn are Hall of Famers, and the rest of it doesn't matter. Believe me, I've been to the Hall of Fame several times, and nowhere on the player's plaque does it say "elected with X% of the vote".

75% is the only number these HoFers care about. Goose will be thrilled and wouldnt care if its spot on 75%.

That said, I do think the 8 voters for non-Ripken and the 13 voters for non-Gwynn do owe an explanation. I think they should be judged on whether they were competent in their thinking or whether they were making a statement of some kind. A simple checks and balances on sanity is all. Just require them to explain what or why they did what they did.

Any insane or dillusional voters should be expunged and replaced....LOL

Ray Finkle
01-10-2007, 11:24 AM
Who is in the running for the hall next year?

The biggest name is David Justice. So saying the pool class is extremely thin is an understatement. Therefore guys like Goose and Rice will probably get in.

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 11:28 AM
The biggest name is David Justice. So saying the pool class is extremely thin is an understatement. Therefore guys like Goose and Rice will probably get in.


I think 2008 is the Goose, Rice, Blyleven and Morris show finally.

Dawson & Smith remain on the outside looking in! Big Mac climbs higher but still not sure if voters issue 75% agreement.

finfansince72
01-10-2007, 11:56 AM
Everyone that had at least 5% of the votes this past year:

Rich "Goose" Gossage 71.2%
Jim Rice 63.5%
Andre Dawson 56.7%
Bert Blyleven 47.7%
Lee Smith 39.8%
Jack Morris 37.1%
Mark McGwire 23.5%
Tommy John 22.9%
Steve Garvey 21.1%
Dave Concepcion 13.6%
Alan Trammell 13.4%
Dave Parker 11.4%
Don Mattingly 54 9.9%
Dale Murphy 9.2%
Harold Baines 5.3%

New for 2008:
Shawon Dunston, Travis Fryman, David Justice, Mike Morgan, Tim Raines, Randy Velarde

Judging by those names new for 2008, Id say a lot of those guys with 60% or higher have a great chance of getting in. Id love to see Dawson and Rice get in, those guys are HOF IMO.

finfansince72
01-10-2007, 11:59 AM
Thank you! I do not understand why people are making such a big stink out of the "they weren't unanimous!" thing. Who cares? They're in the Hall of Fame. Isn't that enough?

Is it stupid not to vote for Ripken and Gwynn? Of course it is. Is that guy who voted for no one because he wanted to make a statement on the "Steroid Era" a pompous jackass? Of course he is. But you can't take someone's vote away just because they didn't vote for this guy or that. This is an extremely subjective process, and therefore, there has to be some allowance for bizarre opinions. Ripken and Gwynn are Hall of Famers, and the rest of it doesn't matter. Believe me, I've been to the Hall of Fame several times, and nowhere on the player's plaque does it say "elected with X% of the vote".

Gossage should get in next time, and it's about flippin' time. He had a big jump in votes, and I think voters thought "huh, if we're going to vote in Bruce Sutter, we'd better elect Gossage, too". I don't think anyone else who was on this year's ballot will make it via the BBWWA vote, though. Jim Rice's candidacy appears to have hit its highest level of support, and next year's election is his last on the ballot. Maybe the Vets Committee will induct him.

As for current HOF'ers, I pretty much agree with everything Ray Finkle said. Jeter would only miss the HOF if his numbers fall off a cliff in the next two years. I'd note one exception, though: Smoltz isn't a lock. I'd bet on him to get in, but he's going to have a strange candidacy.

They should at least make the voting results public. Those people that didnt vote for Gwynn or Ripken do owe people a explanation. Theres this silly 'unwritten' rule that some idiots have that they vote for no one on the first try. Theres also backdoor deals with people, agreements to vote for this guy or that guy if you vote for my guy, etc. These idiots should have to answer for their votes at the very least. Honestly I think if we could see who voted for who the voting would be a lot better. I still think anyone who didnt vote for Gwynn or Ripken is simply not a good enough judge of what makes a HOF to keep their vote. The vote should be a priveledge, not a right.

UCFinfan86
01-10-2007, 12:01 PM
WOW that has to be one of the weakest first ballot classes ever. None of those guys are even remotely close to being HOF material IMO.

Ray Finkle
01-10-2007, 12:11 PM
I think 2008 is the Goose, Rice, Blyleven and Morris show finally.

Dawson & Smith remain on the outside looking in! Big Mac climbs higher but still not sure if voters issue 75% agreement.

I'm not sure Morris deserves to be in the Hall. I don't have his numbers in front of me but I'll check them out later when I have more time but aside from Game 7 of the 91 WS nothing that he's done really stands out that I can think of.

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 12:31 PM
I'm not sure Morris deserves to be in the Hall. I don't have his numbers in front of me but I'll check them out later when I have more time but aside from Game 7 of the 91 WS nothing that he's done really stands out that I can think of.

I know, a lot of folks feel this way. Yet, he was the dominant pitcher of his generation and lead the decade in wins. He obviously stacks up well from the post season side too.

http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/morrija02.php


Jack Morris won far more games (233) than any other pitcher in baseball over a 14-year span (1979-1992). Critics have attacked Morris' legacy due to his high ERA's, claiming he won due to great run support. Those same critics ignore the fact that Morris pitched several years in a tremendous hitters' ballpark (Tiger Stadium). Morris was the winningest pitcher of the 1980s.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morrija02.shtml

Career Statistics
Record 254-186
ERA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_Run_Average) 3.90
Strikeouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikeouts) 2478

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/M/Morris_Jack.stm

I think he gets overlooked but clearly he was the best of the best during his run. (Similar to Rice). Does that make him HoF material? Its a tough argument.



1991 - World Series Most Valuable Player
All Star: 1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1991
AL Wins Leader: 1981, 1992
AL Strikeouts Leader: 1983
AL Shutouts Leader: 1986
Hold the major league record for consecutive opening day starts, with 14 (1979-1993)

Does the best of the best during one's run make you HoF, or are you just not good enough if the era didnt produce what some might say "overall" HoF worthy members???


Though the winningest pitcher of the 1980s, Morris' skills were debated while he played and during his bid for the Hall of Fame. While Morris was a consistent workhorse, notching double-digit wins in 14 of his 16 full seasons in the majors, his ERA hinted at the benefit of run support. He finished in the top ten in Cy Young Award (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/Y/Young_Cy.stm) voting seven times, but never won the coveted trophy; his heralded 1984 and 1991 World Series (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/S/Series_World.stm) performances were somewhat tempered by his subpar postseason play in 1987 and 1992. However, Morris was a tenacious performer on the mound, relegated to the disabled list just twice in his 18-year career, and helped anchor three different teams' victories in the World Series.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 12:51 PM
The biggest name is David Justice. So saying the pool class is extremely thin is an understatement. Therefore guys like Goose and Rice will probably get in.

The biggest name is Justice, but the best player is Raines. Raines absolutely should be in the HOF and probably won't be. He's basically the Bert Blyleven of hitters: excellent statistics, but toiled in obscurity for too long and fell just short of magical career marks that would have likely guaranteed entry. Injuries in his prime years were all that kept Raines from 3000 hits and 1000 SBs.

As for who will get in, Gossage is pretty much a lock unless he kills someone between now and January 2008.

I'm not sure about Rice, though. Here's his vote percentage the last 5 years: 52.2 54.5 59.5 64.8 63.5. (From http://baseballcrank.com/)

To me, the fact that his support increased like that and then finally levelled off this year tells me that he's hit critical mass. Remember, next year is his 15th and final year on the ballot, so he's got a lot of ground to make up in a short time (Rice got 346 votes, and needed 409 this year, so that means 63 voters need to change their minds in one year). Red Sox Nation has been stumping without shame for Rice forever, so the voters have heard the arguments ad infinitum. I read somewhere that the Red Sox FO is planning a major PR campaign on Rice's behalf. Good for them and good for Rice, but honestly, it bothers me that anyone would, after 15 years, finally say "okay, I'll vote for him". It either means you weren't paying attention enough before, or you're a weak-minded, easily-influenced fool. Still, it's human nature, and I can no more complain about that than I can ask a dog not to scratch.

The one thing in Rice's favor (and in favor of those who are close but not in) is that almost everyone's support dipped this year, due in part to the bitterness of the steroid issue, and also in part to the fact that there were two absolute locks on the ballot. Remember, you can vote for up to 10 guys, which means that after Gwynn and Ripken were checked off, that left 8 potential spots. Next year, there are no locks on the ballot, which might free up some votes for Rice and Andre Dawson.

I don't think Blyleven and Morris will make it. Their support has also levelled off, and neither is close enough to expect to get over the top. Blyleven has actually been the beneficiary of a PR campaign of sorts by sabermetric-minded folks like Rob Neyer, Bill James and etc. But I think that's probably hit its peak, especially with so many old-school voters still around.

If I were to forecast the chances of induction for the primary candidates next year, I'd guess their chances of induction are as follows:

Gossage - 95%
Rice - 50%
Dawson - 35%
Blyleven - 10%
Morris - 5%
Raines - 5% (much higher, eventually, but there's no way he gets in on the first try)

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm not sure about Rice, though. Here's his vote percentage the last 5 years: 52.2 54.5 59.5 64.8 63.5. (From http://baseballcrank.com/)

To me, the fact that his support increased like that and then finally levelled off this year tells me that he's hit critical mass. Remember, next year is his 15th and final year on the ballot, so he's got a lot of ground to make up in a short time (Rice got 346 votes, and needed 409 this year, so that means 63 voters need to change their minds in one year).

Small point....this was Rice's 13th try...next year is #14. (interesting enough his uniform number.)

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070109&content_id=1775510&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb




Rice, in his 13th year on the ballot, received 346 votes for a percentage of 63.5. Inductees need to be selected on 75 percent of voters of the Baseball Writers' Association of America.

It would be fitting if Rice did get elected on his 14th try, since he wore No. 14 during the entirety of his career (1974-89) with the Red Sox. There would also be some irony if he went in with Gossage, considering their epic power struggles in the late innings during the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry.

Should Rice fail to gain entry next year, 2009 would be his last chance to make it the old-fashioned way. Candidates are allowed to be on the BBWAA ballot for a maximum of 15 years. However, Rice would still have a chance to be selected via the Veteran's Committee should he go 0-for-15 in the BBWAA vote.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 01:38 PM
Small point....this was Rice's 13th try...next year is #14. (interesting enough his uniform number.)

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070109&content_id=1775510&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Actually, it's a large point. I didn't think Rice could make up that many votes in one year, but in two years, his chances are much, much better. Thanks for pointing that out.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 01:48 PM
I know, a lot of folks feel this way. Yet, he was the dominant pitcher of his generation and lead the decade in wins. He obviously stacks up well from the post season side too.

http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/morrija02.php



http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morrija02.shtml

Career Statistics
Record 254-186
ERA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_Run_Average) 3.90
Strikeouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikeouts) 2478

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/M/Morris_Jack.stm

I think he gets overlooked but clearly he was the best of the best during his run. (Similar to Rice). Does that make him HoF material? Its a tough argument.


Does the best of the best during one's run make you HoF, or are you just not good enough if the era didnt produce what some might say "overall" HoF worthy members???

I go back and forth on Morris. His track record as a Big Game Pitcher is absolutely undeniable, and with the way baseball has changed, the old 300 win benchmark should probably be adjusted to 250 (Morris has 254). But that 3.90 ERA won't go away. More to the point, his ERA+ for his career was just 105. You can talk about park factors all you like, but ERA+ adjusts for that and tells us that his ERA was just 5% better than an average MLB pitcher. That's a big problem in my eyes. Add in the fact that his win totals are inflated by the fact that he played on really good teams for the vast majority of his career and suddenly, that 254-186 record looks less impressive.

More irritating is the complete lack of interest his old teammates have gotten. Alan Trammell is absolutely a Hall of Famer, but he's probably never going to make it. Lou Whitaker had a decent case for induction, and got knocked off the ballot immediately. The larger problem is that a lot of stars from the 1980's seem to be getting shafted by the committee; you can add Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy to the list and probably Tim Raines, as well.

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 01:56 PM
I go back and forth on Morris. His track record as a Big Game Pitcher is absolutely undeniable, and with the way baseball has changed, the old 300 win benchmark should probably be adjusted to 250 (Morris has 254). But that 3.90 ERA won't go away. More to the point, his ERA+ for his career was just 105. You can talk about park factors all you like, but ERA+ adjusts for that and tells us that his ERA was just 5% better than an average MLB pitcher. That's a big problem in my eyes. Add in the fact that his win totals are inflated by the fact that he played on really good teams for the vast majority of his career and suddenly, that 254-186 record looks less impressive.

More irritating is the complete lack of interest his old teammates have gotten. Alan Trammell is absolutely a Hall of Famer, but he's probably never going to make it. Lou Whitaker had a decent case for induction, and got knocked off the ballot immediately. The larger problem is that a lot of stars from the 1980's seem to be getting shafted by the committee; you can add Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy to the list and probably Tim Raines, as well.

:yeahthat: (the best of your generation argument doesnt hold weight it seems when "that generation" is looked down upon for some reason by the voters)

FinsNYanksFan13
01-10-2007, 02:23 PM
I think 2008 is the Goose, Rice, Blyleven and Morris show finally.

Dawson & Smith remain on the outside looking in! Big Mac climbs higher but still not sure if voters issue 75% agreement.



Tim Raines should make it in 08 IMO!

808 Stolen Bases
Over 2600 hits
.294 Career Batting Average
.385 OBP
Never struck out 100 times in any season
170 homers, 980 RBI's
7 All Star Games including and AS MVP
Led MLB in stolen bases 4 times including 7 othe top 10 finishes
Top 10 in triples 9 times
Played on 2 Championship Teams
Top 10 in runs scored in 8 seasons


http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/raineti01.shtml



I think Rock should get in. Many will disagree because he's a poor man's Ricky Henderson but I think he is deserving of getting in next year along with Goose and Rice!

MikeO
01-10-2007, 02:50 PM
I'm not sure Morris deserves to be in the Hall. I don't have his numbers in front of me but I'll check them out later when I have more time but aside from Game 7 of the 91 WS nothing that he's done really stands out that I can think of.


Morris should be in. His numbers and career is very good, throw in his big games and he's in.

Jim Rice should be in also as with Gossage

MikeO
01-10-2007, 02:55 PM
damn, i thought for sure Cal would get 100%

You take away the streak,and Cal Ripken is a borderline hall of fame player. He wasn't that good on the field.

He played 21 years and in 21 years only about 7 of them are what you would call HALL OF FAME years. He has 3,000 hits yes, but he's a lifetime .276 hitter (or so). That is a clear sign that he wasn't a great player, he just had a ton of at bats and any average player would get 3,000 hits in that many at bats!!

All things considered (streak, 3,000 hits...etc) he belongs in the hall of fame. With that said though, Cal wasn't going to get 100% of the vote and he is a very very overrated player!!

MikeO
01-10-2007, 02:56 PM
Adding to the list:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Ken Griffey Jr.
Trevor Hoffman

I don't see Hoffman going to the hall of fame. I know his numbers are what they are but I just don't see it and I think over the next few years "numbers" are going to get tossed aside when deciding on who is a hall of fame player or not.

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 02:58 PM
You take away the streak,and Cal Ripken is a borderline hall of fame player. He wasn't that good on the field.

He played 21 years and in 21 years only about 7 of them are what you would call HALL OF FAME years. He has 3,000 hits yes, but he's a lifetime .276 hitter (or so). That is a clear sign that he wasn't a great player, he just had a ton of at bats and any average player would get 3,000 hits in that many at bats!!

All things considered (streak, 3,000 hits...etc) he belongs in the hall of fame. With that said though, Cal wasn't going to get 100% of the vote and he is a very very overrated player!!

:confused: MikeO. Fine streak-aside. Ripken revolutionized the SS position. He was the first of many that followed to be that big, tall, strong SS. He was very, very, very good in the field.

He is a first ballot HoF!

MikeO
01-10-2007, 03:01 PM
:confused: MikeO. Fine streak-aside. Ripken revolutionized the SS position. He was the first of many that followed to be that big, tall, strong SS. He was very, very, very good in the field.

He is a first ballot HoF!

I never said he wasn't a first ballot HOF player :shakeno: :shakeno: I just said he was overrated.

And he didn't revolutionize anything. In 21 years he didn't even get 500 home runs!!!!! 12,000 at bats for a career!!!!!!! And he played the last 10 years (or so) in a sandbox ballpark!!!!

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 03:08 PM
I never said he wasn't a first ballot HOF player :shakeno: :shakeno: I just said he was overrated.

And he didn't revolutionize anything. In 21 years he didn't even get 500 home runs!!!!! 12,000 at bats for a career!!!!!!! And he played the last 10 years (or so) in a sandbox ballpark!!!!

:shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: my point is that you cant be a borderline HOFer and be a 1st Ballot HOFer w/highest % for position player also:shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

He revolutionized the SS position! First big man to be a SS!

phunwin
01-10-2007, 03:48 PM
Tim Raines should make it in 08 IMO!

808 Stolen Bases
Over 2600 hits
.294 Career Batting Average
.385 OBP
Never struck out 100 times in any season
170 homers, 980 RBI's
7 All Star Games including and AS MVP
Led MLB in stolen bases 4 times including 7 othe top 10 finishes
Top 10 in triples 9 times
Played on 2 Championship Teams
Top 10 in runs scored in 8 seasons


http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/raineti01.shtml



I think Rock should get in. Many will disagree because he's a poor man's Ricky Henderson but I think he is deserving of getting in next year along with Goose and Rice!

Absolutely. I just don't think it will happen because I don't think enough writers appreciate just how good he was. Moreover, we've already seen stars from the 80s get shafted repeatedly. I hope I'm wrong about him, because he deserves a spot.

And incidentally, he was a poor man's Rickey Henderson. Thing is, there's zero shame in that. Henderson was a phenomenal ballplayer, and to be 90% as good as Henderson still makes you HOF caliber.

phunwin
01-10-2007, 03:53 PM
You take away the streak,and Cal Ripken is a borderline hall of fame player. He wasn't that good on the field.

He played 21 years and in 21 years only about 7 of them are what you would call HALL OF FAME years. He has 3,000 hits yes, but he's a lifetime .276 hitter (or so). That is a clear sign that he wasn't a great player, he just had a ton of at bats and any average player would get 3,000 hits in that many at bats!!

All things considered (streak, 3,000 hits...etc) he belongs in the hall of fame. With that said though, Cal wasn't going to get 100% of the vote and he is a very very overrated player!!

Name five shortstops better than Ripken. I'll give you Honus Wagner for free.

SuavePhin
01-10-2007, 04:34 PM
You take away the streak,and Cal Ripken is a borderline hall of fame player. He wasn't that good on the field.

He played 21 years and in 21 years only about 7 of them are what you would call HALL OF FAME years. He has 3,000 hits yes, but he's a lifetime .276 hitter (or so). That is a clear sign that he wasn't a great player, he just had a ton of at bats and any average player would get 3,000 hits in that many at bats!!

All things considered (streak, 3,000 hits...etc) he belongs in the hall of fame. With that said though, Cal wasn't going to get 100% of the vote and he is a very very overrated player!!

98% or whatnot i thought for sure that history would have a first 100% guy just because aside from him Tony and Goose, there wasn't a strong list, throw in this is a "steroid era" and Cal is about as clean and classy, not to mention a tremendous player i was thinking he had a good a shot as anyone to get 100% just thought it would be a cool thing to see since watching Cal is what mainly got my interest in baseball to begin with

UCFinfan86
01-10-2007, 04:36 PM
I agree with MikeO, yes he is a hall of fame player, but one of the more overrated players in history

BigDogsHunt
01-10-2007, 04:55 PM
I agree with MikeO, yes he is a hall of fame player, but one of the more overrated players in history

I just dont see where this "over-rated" logic comes from, he totally changed the game for a SS:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070108&content_id=1775136&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb


He's one of the few players in baseball history who revolutionized the game. Ripken turned shortstop from a defensive position into an offensive one.

"To me, he's a slam dunk even without the streak," said Ken Rosenthal, who covered Ripken with The Baltimore Sun for more than a decade and now works for FOXSports.com. "He proved that a tall man could play shortstop, enabling players like Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez to follow.

Ripken took an even bigger step forward in 1983, when he earned the first of his 19 All-Star berths and slugged his way to his first Most Valuable Player Award. He hit .317 with 27 home runs and 102 RBIs, leading the Orioles to an American League East title. Baltimore went on to win the World Series, further seeding his legacy.

The train to Cooperstown kept rolling in the next few years, he would go on to hit at least 20 home runs for an additional eight straight seasons, which was unheard of at the time for a shortstop.

"Ripken, meanwhile, continued his assault on the record books. He narrowly missed out on a Gold Glove in 1990 -- when he made just three errors in 162 games -- and had his best season in 1991. He finally won the fielding hardware that season and batted .323 with career highs in home runs (34) and RBIs (114). He won his second Most Valuable Player Award that season, adding yet another career highlight.

Then when you consider that long before the climax of "the streak" he played every inning of every game his first 5 full seasons in the league its staggering. Playing SS, some consider the 2nd most physically demanding position day-in-day-out only to Catcher.

finfansince72
01-10-2007, 05:52 PM
Absolutely. I just don't think it will happen because I don't think enough writers appreciate just how good he was. Moreover, we've already seen stars from the 80s get shafted repeatedly. I hope I'm wrong about him, because he deserves a spot.

And incidentally, he was a poor man's Rickey Henderson. Thing is, there's zero shame in that. Henderson was a phenomenal ballplayer, and to be 90% as good as Henderson still makes you HOF caliber.
I agree about Raines, theres no question he was a elite leadoff man, maybe 2nd or 3rd alltime behind Henderson.
This is another case of the voters thinking too hard. The Baseball HOF voters try their best to keep the HOF pure, I respect that, but they take it way too far IMO. I watched Raines and Dawson play, I dont remember it ever being a question as to whether or not they were among the very best in the league. After retirement for some reason people seem to forget what players in their prime were like.

finfansince72
01-10-2007, 05:55 PM
I agree with MikeO, yes he is a hall of fame player, but one of the more overrated players in history

Crazy. Obviously you didnt watch him play. He won the MVP twice, as a shortstop thats amazing. Had one of the highest fielding percentages, set records for power numbers for a shortstop-before Arod that is. I would bother to list his achievements but obviously you have your mind made up. It pays to actually watch players play before calling them overrated.

FinsNYanksFan13
01-10-2007, 05:59 PM
Absolutely. I just don't think it will happen because I don't think enough writers appreciate just how good he was. Moreover, we've already seen stars from the 80s get shafted repeatedly. I hope I'm wrong about him, because he deserves a spot.

And incidentally, he was a poor man's Rickey Henderson. Thing is, there's zero shame in that. Henderson was a phenomenal ballplayer, and to be 90% as good as Henderson still makes you HOF caliber.



I agree. It's like being a poor man's Bill Gates. What are you worth, only 100 million. Nothing wron with that IMO. Raines should be in!

Section126
01-10-2007, 09:18 PM
Name five shortstops better than Ripken. I'll give you Honus Wagner for free.



I'll give it a try.

Honus Wagner
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada



Those five I consider better.

I have a hard time trying to put Ozzie Smith or anybody else anywhere in his league...so I would say..that he is the clear cut 6th best shortstop in MLB history.

UCFinfan86
01-10-2007, 09:53 PM
Crazy. Obviously you didnt watch him play. He won the MVP twice, as a shortstop thats amazing. Had one of the highest fielding percentages, set records for power numbers for a shortstop-before Arod that is. I would bother to list his achievements but obviously you have your mind made up. It pays to actually watch players play before calling them overrated.

When did i say he wasn't a great player?? I said he is a hall of famer no doubt!! I just don't think he deserves to be on the pedestal that alot of you are putting him on. Im sorry but i don't think he's one of the top SS's ever

finfansince72
01-10-2007, 10:27 PM
When did i say he wasn't a great player?? I said he is a hall of famer no doubt!! I just don't think he deserves to be on the pedestal that alot of you are putting him on. Im sorry but i don't think he's one of the top SS's ever

Then why on earth would he be in the HOF? Which is it? Is he great or just a overated player? I dont put Ripken that high up on a pedastal, I just realize hes one of the all time great SS's so its a nobrainer to put him in the Hall. Im not going to call him great then go on to say hes overrated, thats a contridiction.

finfansince72
01-10-2007, 10:29 PM
I'll give it a try.

Honus Wagner
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada



Those five I consider better.

I have a hard time trying to put Ozzie Smith or anybody else anywhere in his league...so I would say..that he is the clear cut 6th best shortstop in MLB history.

Larkin is questionable, but I can see someone putting him up there. Tejada hasnt done it long enough. That list is very suspect, but still even putting him at 6th is still saying hes a great player. He certainly much deserves the 1st ballot induction that he received.

GreenMonster
01-10-2007, 11:19 PM
You take away the streak,and Cal Ripken is a borderline hall of fame player. He wasn't that good on the field.

He played 21 years and in 21 years only about 7 of them are what you would call HALL OF FAME years. He has 3,000 hits yes, but he's a lifetime .276 hitter (or so). That is a clear sign that he wasn't a great player, he just had a ton of at bats and any average player would get 3,000 hits in that many at bats!!

All things considered (streak, 3,000 hits...etc) he belongs in the hall of fame. With that said though, Cal wasn't going to get 100% of the vote and he is a very very overrated player!!

I would have to disagree.. Cal won ROY, 2 MVP's, 2 Gold Gloves(could have had more), 8 Silver Sluggers, 19 All-Star Teams.. He was an underrated defender.. Certainly one of the top 3 SS of all-time..

UCFinfan86
01-10-2007, 11:19 PM
Then why on earth would he be in the HOF? Which is it? Is he great or just a overated player? I dont put Ripken that high up on a pedastal, I just realize hes one of the all time great SS's so its a nobrainer to put him in the Hall. Im not going to call him great then go on to say hes overrated, thats a contridiction.

I worded that wrong, i meant Top 3, i think he is the 4-5th best. Which is DEFFINETLY HOF material, which i said i think he was about 3 times now. I think he is overrated because people say he is the best of all time, which i don't agree with. I think his ironman streak makes him overrated, yes it was a GREAT accomplishment, but i think it gives makes him look like a better player then he was.

Ray Finkle
01-11-2007, 12:10 AM
Morris should be in. His numbers and career is very good, throw in his big games and he's in.

Jim Rice should be in also as with Gossage

People forget how awful Morris was in the 1987 and 1992 playoffs though. Yes he was awesome in 1984 and 1991 but just awful in those other two years. It's funny how they never get mentioned but Game 7 always does.

His ERA is pretty high too. He was a good pitcher in his day but I don't think he's a HOFer. Yes he threw a ton of innings and won 254 games but from what I've read about him he was blessed with tons of run support and was on a lot of very good teams. Add in the fact he was a jerk to the media which won't ever help his case.

King Felix
01-11-2007, 12:12 AM
Barry Bonds
Ichiroichiro? no way is he a lock right now....he doesnt even have 2,000 hits yet if im not mistaken....plus he is in his 30's now

Ray Finkle
01-11-2007, 12:22 AM
I'll give it a try.

Honus Wagner
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada



Those five I consider better.

I have a hard time trying to put Ozzie Smith or anybody else anywhere in his league...so I would say..that he is the clear cut 6th best shortstop in MLB history.

Wagner- yes
Banks- yes
Arod- yes but by the time Arod retires and assuming he stays with the Yankees he'll have played more games at 3rd instead of SS so that might DQ him from the debate
Larkin- no
Tejeda- right now- no

Ozzie- only with his glove and range

finfansince72
01-11-2007, 02:01 AM
I worded that wrong, i meant Top 3, i think he is the 4-5th best. Which is DEFFINETLY HOF material, which i said i think he was about 3 times now. I think he is overrated because people say he is the best of all time, which i don't agree with. I think his ironman streak makes him overrated, yes it was a GREAT accomplishment, but i think it gives makes him look like a better player then he was.

Well I think we agree more than we disagree here. I love Ripken, I think hes one of the alltime greats undeniably, but I agree that he isnt the best SS ever and hes not the best player ever. I really dont even think too much about the streak when I think about how great he was. He was in like 19 allstar games, he was really consistantly great. The streak is due to hard work and perseverence but also alot of luck. Theres players that work incredibly hard to stay healthy but break a hand from a bad pitch or something similar. That streak is awesome but theres so much beyond just being in shape and wanting to play everyday that goes into something like that.

MikeO
01-11-2007, 11:06 AM
Name five shortstops better than Ripken. I'll give you Honus Wagner for free.

Ernie Banks, Arky Vaughn, Robin Yount, A-Rod, Honus Wagner are 5 right there. I could keep going on too.....

And by the end of his career I might throw in Jeter who will have more hits and a higher career avg.

MikeO
01-11-2007, 11:08 AM
my point is that you cant be a borderline HOFer and be a 1st Ballot HOFer w/highest % for position player also



I said if you take away the streak he was bordlerine. Since you can't take away the streak its part of it all, he is a lock 1st ballot hall of famer!!!! :shakeno: :shakeno:

MikeO
01-11-2007, 11:10 AM
I would have to disagree.. Cal won ROY, 2 MVP's, 2 Gold Gloves(could have had more), 8 Silver Sluggers, 19 All-Star Teams.. He was an underrated defender.. Certainly one of the top 3 SS of all-time..

He isn't Ernie Banks, Honus Wagner or Arky Vaughn. Please, he isn't Top 3!!

BigDogsHunt
01-11-2007, 11:29 AM
I said if you take away the streak he was bordlerine. Since you can't take away the streak its part of it all, he is a lock 1st ballot hall of famer!!!! :shakeno: :shakeno:

And I keep saying without the streak he was going to be a sure-fire HoF based on how he revolutionized the SS position for his size, and hitting prowess! :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

(this is fun - but can we agree to disagree?)

Section126
01-11-2007, 12:00 PM
Okay....I am not crapping on Ripken...BUT.

Explain to me why Larkin isn't as good as Ripken or for that matter..better?

As for Tejada..Miguel Tejada will bury Ripkens numbers by far by the time he is done.

Although A-Rod will eventually be considered a 3rd baseman.

Seriously..try to make an arguement that Ripken was ever as good or even close to as good as Miguel Tejada is right now.

MikeO
01-11-2007, 12:30 PM
Okay....I am not crapping on Ripken...BUT.

Explain to me why Larkin isn't as good as Ripken or for that matter..better?

As for Tejada..Miguel Tejada will bury Ripkens numbers by far by the time he is done.

Although A-Rod will eventually be considered a 3rd baseman.

Seriously..try to make an arguement that Ripken was ever as good or even close to as good as Miguel Tejada is right now.


Ya can't. You are 100% correct. Ripken is defined by "the streak'. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But his "numbers" are very very average!! If you take the streak out of the equation and just look at his numbers, they aren't that special. Especially for playing 21 years and having over 12,000 at bats! He just complied numbers because he played so long.

And throw in Jeter as a better SS. Jeter will have 3,000 hits (probably in less at bats). He will retire with an average over .300 (Ripken was .276 I believe).

MikeO
01-11-2007, 12:32 PM
And I keep saying without the streak he was going to be a sure-fire HoF based on how he revolutionized the SS position for his size, and hitting prowess! :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

(this is fun - but can we agree to disagree?)


I agree. Without the streak, the 3,000 hits gets him in the hall of fame on the first ballot alone. That DOESN"T change the fact he is overrated!!!!!!!!

He played 21 years and didn't have 500 home runs. He is a lifetime .275 hitter. Those aren't great numbers!!! The guy is very overrated!!!

GreenMonster
01-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Okay....I am not crapping on Ripken...BUT.

Explain to me why Larkin isn't as good as Ripken or for that matter..better?

As for Tejada..Miguel Tejada will bury Ripkens numbers by far by the time he is done.

Although A-Rod will eventually be considered a 3rd baseman.

Seriously..try to make an arguement that Ripken was ever as good or even close to as good as Miguel Tejada is right now.

Ripken = 2 MVPs, 1 ROY, 19 All-star games

Tejada, Larkin, Jeter = 2 MVP's, 1 ROY, 23 All-star games

Section126
01-11-2007, 05:29 PM
Ripken = 2 MVPs, 1 ROY, 19 All-star games

Tejada, Larkin, Jeter = 2 MVP's, 1 ROY, 23 All-star games

Do you honestly believe that Ripken is a better player than Tejada, Jeter, and Larkin?

The argument you just made is like saying that Steve Nash is better than Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Charles Barkley.

GreenMonster
01-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Do you honestly believe that Ripken is a better player than Tejada, Jeter, and Larkin?

The argument you just made is like saying that Steve Nash is better than Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Charles Barkley.

Larkin, yes barely, he did it for longer...

Jeter right now certainly, he paved the way for players like Jeter

Tejada, yes many players have had monster years but haven't been able to put it together for the whole career.. Tejada could have very well be steroid aided..

SS is very different now with the new age (jeter, tejada, Arod, nomar) SS looking very much more dominant than the ones before them.. Cal was no doubt the best SS of the 80's and 90's with Barry Larkin as a close 2nd..

As for Cal not having 500 HR's only now does that not look as impressive.. The man consistently hit 20 HR a season which at the time was mighty impressive.. Arky Vaughn had 96 HR, he couldn't even get to 100... Things change... He has has 473 HR compared to 411 to the other 3 best SS of the era in Larkin, Trammell and Smith...

Section126
01-11-2007, 07:01 PM
Larkin, yes barely, he did it for longer...

Jeter right now certainly, he paved the way for players like Jeter

Tejada, yes many players have had monster years but haven't been able to put it together for the whole career.. Tejada could have very well be steroid aided..

SS is very different now with the new age (jeter, tejada, Arod, nomar) SS looking very much more dominant than the ones before them.. Cal was no doubt the best SS of the 80's and 90's with Barry Larkin as a close 2nd..

As for Cal not having 500 HR's only now does that not look as impressive.. The man consistently hit 20 HR a season which at the time was mighty impressive.. Arky Vaughn had 96 HR, he couldn't even get to 100... Things change... He has has 473 HR compared to 411 to the other 3 best SS of the era in Larkin, Trammell and Smith...

And why not Cal? The guy never got hurt...He stayed healthy throughout...Cal Ripken is much more likely to have been steriod aided.

UCFinfan86
01-11-2007, 07:35 PM
I don't get what the big deal is about revolutionzing a position. Ya its great, but that doesnt make him any better of a player for doing it

Ray Finkle
01-11-2007, 07:39 PM
I don't get what the big deal is about revolutionzing a position. Ya its great, but that doesnt make him any better of a player for doing it

No it doesn't make him a better player but it lead the way for power guys like Arod, Tejeda and Nomar.

Before Ripken, the majority of SS couldn't hit a lick and if they hit .250 with 5 HRs a year it would be considered good.

Ray Finkle
01-11-2007, 07:51 PM
Ripken and Larkin have similar stats (a lot closer than I thought), but I think most people would take Cal over Larkin if they had a choice between the two.

I do agree however that Ripken is a tad bit overrated though.

Rocky Raccoon
01-11-2007, 09:17 PM
Ripken and Larkin have similar stats (a lot closer than I thought), but I think most people would take Cal over Larkin if they had a choice between the two.

I do agree however that Ripken is a tad bit overrated though.

:shakeno:

Ray Finkle
01-11-2007, 10:02 PM
:shakeno:

Ripken is a HOFer no doubt but in my opinion if I had 1 vote for 1 player on this year ballot it would have went to Gwynn, who I feel is the better player. Everyone was making a big stink about Ripken not getting 100% of the votes and how they should take away voting for the guys who didn't vote for him, but he wasn't Ted Williams, Willie Mayes, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron (who also didn't receive 100% of the votes) therefore Ripken is being overrated which I think his streak makes him out to be a better player than he was.

Ripken was one of the best SS in the history of baseball so far but his low BA and OBP hurts him. Oddly enough might have been higher if he didn't have "the streak" because one days rest does a body wonders.

Alex44
01-13-2007, 10:49 AM
Ripken is a HOFer no doubt but in my opinion if I had 1 vote for 1 player on this year ballot it would have went to Gwynn, who I feel is the better player. Everyone was making a big stink about Ripken not getting 100% of the votes and how they should take away voting for the guys who didn't vote for him, but he wasn't Ted Williams, Willie Mayes, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron (who also didn't receive 100% of the votes) therefore Ripken is being overrated which I think his streak makes him out to be a better player than he was.

Ripken was one of the best SS in the history of baseball so far but his low BA and OBP hurts him. Oddly enough might have been higher if he didn't have "the streak" because one days rest does a body wonders.

I agree 100%

Ripken was a great player even though I really only caught the tail end of his career, and he has great numbers and the streak was/is an amazing feat. However I dont know if he is as great as everyone makes him out to be, not because he isnt great or a first ballot HOF player, but because they seem to give him way to much credit and make him out to be way better than he was.

Also Gwynn was a better player IMO though that may be biased because he is also my favorite all time.

phunwin
01-14-2007, 12:46 PM
Ernie Banks, Arky Vaughn, Robin Yount, A-Rod, Honus Wagner are 5 right there. I could keep going on too.....

And by the end of his career I might throw in Jeter who will have more hits and a higher career avg.

Banks, Yount and (by the time his career's over) A-Rod all did the bulk of their offensive damage at other positions.

phunwin
01-14-2007, 01:08 PM
I'll give it a try.

Honus Wagner
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada

Those five I consider better.

I have a hard time trying to put Ozzie Smith or anybody else anywhere in his league...so I would say..that he is the clear cut 6th best shortstop in MLB history.

This is my fault; when I wrote the question, I meant to say 5 shortstops currently in the HOF that are better. Nevertheless, I would urge you to take a look at this article (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-path-to-cooperstown-through-the-middle-infield/) before determining Ripken's place in baseball history. When looking at the value of shortstops in their prime, only Hornsby, Rodriguez and Vaughn were better than Ripken. Ripken's value exceeds that of Jeter, Tejada, Larkin and Smith.

Here's the thing: we tend to think of the 1990's Ripken, the guy who probably played a little too long, whose career probably suffered under the weight of The Streak, and who posted a lot of so-so batting averages in a super offensive era. We forget that the Ripken from 1982-1991 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ripkeca01.shtml) was an absolute offensive monster in an era where run production was much lower than it is today. You have to compare players against the era in which they played. When all is said and done, Tejada's raw offensive stats will probably look a lot better than Ripken's. However, by the standards of the day, Ripken was better vis-a-vis his peers than Tejada, and by the study above, a tick better than Jeter (though in Jeter's defense, it's awfully close). For Ripken's prime years (82-91), his OPS+ was 126.4, meaning he was 26% better than an average hitter. For Tejada's prime years (2000-06), it was 121. Thus, in his prime years (and it's prime years that we should be most seriously considering, since that's what usually gets you into the HOF), Ripken was better compared to his peers than Tejada.

Ozzie Smith isn't close. Smith's defense was tremendous, of course, but he was a mediocre, at best, offensive player. Even at shortstop, offense still counts for a lot more than defense. For Smith to have been a more valuable player than Ripken, he would have probably had to play 2nd, shortstop and 3rd base all by himself to make up for the difference in offense.

Barry Larkin probably would have been close if he could have stayed healthy during his prime years. But he lost an average of 43 games a season to injury. What's more valuable, 162 games of excellent production, or 119 games of excellent production?

MikeO
01-15-2007, 01:27 PM
Look, Cal Ripkin is a great SS and a great player. Sure fire HALL OF FAME player. Nobody ever denied that.

But, he is overrated. He didn't change the position. His numbers aren't anything special. Just a .275 or so lifetime hitter. Didn't even hit 500 home runs in 21 seasons. The STREAK is all he is about. Period.

Good bless him. Good guy in a sport with a lot of bad ones. But he is overrated!!

MikeO
01-15-2007, 01:29 PM
and on getting 100% of the vote thing. Nobody ever will.

Although, if there is one guy who will come damn close and maybe get 99%.......it could be Marino Rivera! His stats and postseason stats in an era with the extra round of the playoffs is second to none.

Ray Finkle
01-15-2007, 01:46 PM
and on getting 100% of the vote thing. Nobody ever will.

Although, if there is one guy who will come damn close and maybe get 99%.......it could be Marino Rivera! His stats and postseason stats in an era with the extra round of the playoffs is second to none.

Good point, Rivera should get 99%-100% but people will hold his 4 or 5 post season blown saves against him, especially 2 really big blown ones (2001 Game 7 WS and 2004 Game 4 ALCS).

Remember the voters that do hold that against them will be the same ones that won't vote for Arod because he (seemingly) never got a big hit in NY with the pressure on him.

MikeO
01-15-2007, 02:08 PM
Good point, Rivera should get 99%-100% but people will hold his 4 or 5 post season blown saves against him, especially 2 really big blown ones (2001 Game 7 WS and 2004 Game 4 ALCS).

Remember the voters that do hold that against them will be the same ones that won't vote for Arod because he (seemingly) never got a big hit in NY with the pressure on him.


Please, AROD will have 3,000 hits and 500+ home runs. Big hits or not he is first ballot.

And was 2004 a blown save? He inherited runners when he entered the game, he didn't start that inning.

BigDogsHunt
01-15-2007, 02:15 PM
And was 2004 a blown save? He inherited runners when he entered the game, he didn't start that inning.

Rivera, game 4 ALCS in 2004, He entered in the 8th, but started the 9th and gave up the tying run. Regardless, its a blown save when you are on the mound and the tying run scores....inherited or not.

To the pitcher that blows the save by letting the run score, its not an ER since he didnt put the runner on, but its still his blown save/blown hold in that situation.

He would take the loss as well if its the winning run obviously.

P.S. I dont think the 2007 (edit sorry, meant 2001) or 2004 will overshadow his dominance.

Ray Finkle
01-15-2007, 02:18 PM
Please, AROD will have 3,000 hits and 500+ home runs. Big hits or not he is first ballot.

And was 2004 a blown save? He inherited runners when he entered the game, he didn't start that inning.

I never said Arod isn't a HOF or on the first ballot, but he won't get 99 to 100% of the votes either. Yet he should.

I guess you blocked out the Millar walk, Roberts' steal, Mueller's single from your memory.... I don't blame you for that though :wink:

But yes the next day was considered a blown save with the inherited runners. Rivera was in a no win situation in that game.

Ray Finkle
01-15-2007, 02:20 PM
Rivera, game 4 in 2004, He entered in the 8th, but started the 9th and gave up the tying run. Regardless, its a blown save when you are on the mound and the tying run scores....inherited or not.

To the pitcher that blows the save by letting the run score, its not an ER since he didnt put the runner on, but its still his blown save/blown hold in that situation.

He would take the loss as well if its the winning run obviously.

P.S. I dont think the 2007 or 2004 will overshadow his dominance.

I think you meant 1997, but either way none of those 3 to 4 games should overshadow his career. He's the best ever. Nuff said. But Yankee hater voters will use that excuse.

BigDogsHunt
01-15-2007, 02:20 PM
I never said Arod isn't a HOF or on the first ballot, but he won't get 99 to 100% of the votes either. Yet he should.

I guess you blocked out the Millar walk, Roberts' steal, Mueller's single from your memory.... I don't blame you for that though :wink:

But yes the next day was considered a blown save with the inherited runners. Rivera was in a no win situation in that game.

Honestly the only time I have ever cursed at him! How do you walk that boy! :shakeno:

BigDogsHunt
01-15-2007, 02:20 PM
I think you meant 1997, but either way none of those 3 to 4 games should overshadow his career. He's the best ever. Nuff said. But Yankee hater voters will use that excuse.


Nope actually 2001 (loss to AZ), typed to fast..sorry.

but the HR to Indians in 1997 should not be a negative either

Ray Finkle
01-15-2007, 02:23 PM
Honestly the only time I have ever cursed at him! How do you walk that boy! :shakeno:

I ripped on Millar tons over the 3 years he was with the Sox but that was a huge at bat. You could tell Rivera wasn't a 100% during that series though. He was obvious tired or hurt because there's no way a healthy Rivera walks Millar on, I believe 4 straight balls.

Funny thing is Gordon or Rivera (I don't remember which- I'm thinking it was Gordon though) walked Millar the next day on 4 pitches which lead Roberts to come and pinch run for him again and score the tying run.