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View Full Version : Did the Bills improve over this offseason?



Gonk
06-10-2003, 01:53 PM
I don't think they did. Yes, they made some decent pick-ups on defense with Takeo Spikes and Sam Adams, but lost a bunch of key offensive guys.

On offense they lost Peerless Price, Larry Centers and Riesemara who were all a big part of the offense. The only one they brought in to replace those guys was FB Sam Gash to take Centers role. I don't think Gash is as good as he was, and think he won't be half as good as Centers was last year. They also lost K Mike Hollis.

Basically, they traded an awesome offense and a poor defense for a mediocre offense and mediocre defense... although they still have some major holes to fill all around (FS, SS, DE, CB, WR)

Did they improve?

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 01:58 PM
is this poll for real??

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 02:00 PM
i am at work. i gotta take a call then i will be back to rip this up :D

Gonk
06-10-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Tatonka
i am at work. i gotta take a call then i will be back to rip this up :D

Bring it on :lol:

dolphan39
06-10-2003, 02:03 PM
they made lots of improvements - http://football.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=buf - but it is still to be seen if they will be as good a passing team as they were w/o Price, Riemersa and Centers and whether Adams will help the DL enough to allow their much improved LBs form a solid D

-81- McMichael
06-10-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Tatonka
i am at work. i gotta take a call then i will be back to rip this up :D

"Don't do it man!" (voice of Ren from Ren & Stimpy)

For what it's worth I voted Yes.

The defense was absolutely pathetic for great part of the year. This year, it WILL be better.

The offense should still average 24 (give or take 2-3 pts/game) pts a game. Key, I think, is your running game. More running keeps the d off the field. THAT will go a long way towards making them better, too.

Emskirch
06-10-2003, 02:19 PM
I think EVERY team in the AFC East improved.

dolphan39
06-10-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Emskirch
I think EVERY team in the AFC East improved. the Jets ???

baalworship
06-10-2003, 02:30 PM
No way. The Bills are finished. To paraphrase Pete Prisco, the Bills lost the heart and soul of their offense when losing number 2 receiver Peerless Price. Larry Centers will be missed as well. Without him teams MIGHT get confused if the Bills are passing or running. And Riemersma was amazing. It's unfortunate that Gilbride doesn't use TE's that much because we COULDA HAD a Tony Gonzalez type differernce maker on our hands.

And the draft. Don't get me started. With so many talented blue chippers it's amazing that the Bills would get someone that might not play this year. It's not like the NFL is a keeper league...


So yeah, maybe they can win a game or two in the division. But I wouldn't worry too much about the Bills. They might be lucky to win 8 games. Their offense is ruined!

Muck
06-10-2003, 02:31 PM
Absolutely they improved. Especially on defense.

-81- McMichael
06-10-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by dolphan39
the Jets ???

The Jets will be better, if for no other reason, because they're going into this year KNOWING that Pennington is THEIR MAN!

Vinny sucks. Has and always will. NOT starting Pennington sooner almost cost them the season... one play here - one play there and Miami could've/should've won the East.

Pennington is probably the best QB in the East right now.

BTW, I absolutely HATE admitting this! :fire:

ckparrothead
06-10-2003, 02:34 PM
From a personnel standpoint the Bills have improved thats pretty given because even if the Spikes and Price thing balances out you still can't ignore the addition of guys like Sam Adams, Dainon Sidney, Keith McKenzie, Chris Kelsay, etc.

I mean none of those moves are flashy but they are good mediocre moves to improve a defense that was woeful.

What I would be worried about if I was a Bills fan is the fact that the front office is changing the entire identity of the team in one offseason. In one offseason they've shown that they are no longer going to be a wide open passing team because they lost Peerless Price, Jay Riemersma, and Larry Centers. They are going to be a running team, with Travis Henry, Olandis Gary, and (if he plays this year which I doubt) Willis McGahee....and instead of Larry Centers catching passes they have Stonehands Gash lead blocking. Their tight ends are of the blocking variety and all the sudden the passing attack is merely relying on Drew Bledsoe to Eric Moulds, Josh Reed, and Bobby Shaw. Sorry but those aren't the ingredients to a top passing attack.

So they wanna be like Miami, run the ball a ton and play good defense. Can't blame them I guess its a good strategy, but they're converting the team overnight using guys I'm not sure can play in that type of offense. Namely, Travis Henry. I really don't think he has what it takes to rush for 1400 yards in a run-first offense. And where is Kevin Gilbride during all this? He must be a little disgruntled about the whole thing to say the least I mean he cut his teeth on the run and shoot offense and this year got to run the closest thing we've seen to the run and shoot in the NFL since Houston, and now its all about pounding the ball and playing defense. I don't think a team transforms its identity overnight and wins a ton of games doing it.

baalworship
06-10-2003, 02:43 PM
ckparrot: What I would be worried about if I was a Bills fan is the fact that the front office is changing the entire identity of the team in one offseason


Um, the only place I've heard this "identity" thing was from PETE PRISCO! So, okay. Identity.


For those who haven't been following the Bills, this is incorrect. The Bills will have a BALANCED attack next year. We will run and we will pass. We will NOT drop back and chuck every play. We didn't want to do that last year but our defense was so bad. For anyone else that wants to quote from Pete Prisco, please SHOW ME where the Bills staff has said it's a RUN FIRST strategy. Some Bills fans say that. But there's been nothing from Gilbride but BALANCED statements...

BTW, we dropped Larry Centers because he was a LIABILITY. When he was in the game it SCREAMED pass. He couldn't block very well either. Travis Henry will be used more in the passing game.

PhinPhreak
06-10-2003, 02:56 PM
I have to say at first glance you can not deny that they have improved, they have upgraded their defense without a doubt,

I do agree that they might have taken a step back with thier offense however as Josh Reed will have to prove he can be the #2 receiver that Price was.

As long as their defense has no problem jelling then they should be much improved over last year, we as Fin fans know that you can win with a good defense without having a high powered offense.

MDFINFAN
06-10-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by -81- McMichael


The Jets will be better, if for no other reason, because they're going into this year KNOWING that Pennington is THEIR MAN!

Vinny sucks. Has and always will. NOT starting Pennington sooner almost cost them the season... one play here - one play there and Miami could've/should've won the East.

Pennington is probably the best QB in the East right now.

BTW, I absolutely HATE admitting this! :fire:

No Way, Bledsoe is the class of AFCE QB's right now, and have earned it..year after year..team after team..Pennington has to be consistent before you can make that statement. 1 year won't do it...BTW, I too think the Bills have improve themselves, their moves does indicate they want to be a more balance team, and I think they have achieved that with their personnel moves..CK, I disagree with the change the team thing...the Rams basically did the same, with even more players on their D a couple of years ago and it took them to the SB..The Bills as about as dangerous as we are...as long as they stay healthy..I asked Ton and Clump who would come in if Drew went down and how they feel about their teams, having seen a response yet.

ckparrothead
06-10-2003, 03:02 PM
Dude, sorry but if you're changing from a pass-happy offense to a BALANCED attack or whatever you wanna call an offense that features one proven WR, a fullback with stone hands, and blocking specialty tight ends, thats still an identity change. Prisco got it right, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

MDFINFAN
06-10-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by ckparrothead
Dude, sorry but if you're changing from a pass-happy offense to a BALANCED attack or whatever you wanna call an offense that features one proven WR, a fullback with stone hands, and blocking specialty tight ends, thats still an identity change. Prisco got it right, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

The chances on O. will hurt, I'm sorry, I was more speaking to the D..The O will definetly have to grind it out..The Rams didn't change their O..just their D..Bills have change both,,not sure of the results of that...But Drew is a player who could put the ball in just about any spot, and even with less WR corps, he's like a middle years Marino in that department and can make things happen.

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 03:10 PM
ah... ok..

on offense the bills lost price, riemersma, and centers.

price was gone no matter what.. so we got a first round pick for him. he was not worth 5+mill a year. reed had over 500 yards last season, dropped only 2 balls all season, and had the best rookie season for a wr in bills history. he can be every bit as good as a guy like hines ward.

the bills lost reimersma.. wow.. big loss.. he did nothing but drop passes and lose bledsoe's confidence and get hurt all year.. if you watched any games, you would know that moore was basically the starter and much more productive, as he could actually catch in the endzone.. he will just get more time now without jr there.. and we traded for a huge man in mark campbell from cleveland.. he is 6'8, 275, and is alot like moore.. block first, catch second. this offense does NOT depend on the TE that much, and moore and campbell will be fine. the bills will go after mark bruener if he gets cut, but he is much the same mold as the other two.

centers.. all centers did was take time from henry on third downs.. henry showed he can catch fine last year racking up 40 catches, and gary has always been a great receiver, so he should be able to pick up any slack that henry cant... i could care less about centers or jr.. and i am confident in reed...

bobby shaw takes over for reed.. he had over 500 yards last season in jacksonville and will fill in fine covering for the 500 yards we probably wont need from our 3rd wr.. also rookie aiken has looked good in minicamps. jett comes in from time to time to strech the field.. nothing more.

sam gash comes in to just help block and he is not listed as the starter.. crosby will fill that role too. he was the beast the led the way for henry last year when he got 1400+ yards. not centers. sam is leadership and superbowl experience.

our O line is exactly the same.. 4 out of 5 guys were in new spots last year and they played admirably.. they will be much better as 3 of them were very young and improving.. williams, jennings and sulivan. teague has another year at center and rubin brown is a probowler.

i would say that covers the offense.

on defense line we added sam adams, who regardless what you thing you know, improves run defenses.. look at oaklands numbers before and after he got there.. look at baltimores numbers before and after.. he is a proven winner. he helps make everyone on our dline including pat williams that much better..

schobel has improved every year in his first two years.. finishing with 8.5 sacks.. that is with NO help from the tackle next to him.. now he has some. he should break 10 sacks at least.

on the other end, we signed marcus jones who was a solid player for tampa, rackign up 13 sacks a few years back. he is almost back from his knee surgery. we also drafted chris kelsay in the second round, and have last years second round pick ryan denny. there is also keith mckenzie who had 8 sacks 3 years in a row... is it a quesiton? yes. will someone step up? hopefully.. we have enough options that someone should be able to.

at LB.. we went from the most weak spot on the team to this being the strongest.. we replace eddie "jooked by pennington" robinson with spikes.. if you dont see a HUGE upgrade there, your nuts.. a dominant LB liek spikes can change the whole defense... fletcher was a rock last year, 3rd in the nfl for tackles, and we replaced the small newman with a pass rushing type LB in posey. if posey doesnt work out, we also have our 3rd round pick in angelo crowell to work with, but posey will be fine. LB will be our strength this year..

our DBs.. look.. i know you all love madison and surtain.. why wouldnt you.. but not everyone has 2 all world CBs.. i am confident that clements and winfield can match up to any teams corners in the nfl other than maybe miami and possibly philly.

at safety.. wire will improve more. he looked great at times, but made rookie mistakes last year too. reese, denvers starter at FS last year, and priolou will fight it out for the FS spot. we added sidney as a nickle back, who was a projected starter in tennesse. he will compete with last years rookie, kevin thomas, who looked like one of teh best dbs on the field by the end of last season.

add to that another years experience for all the young guys that have been plugged in since TD got here 2 years ago..

naw.. i dont see any improvement.. what was i thinking.. :rolleyes:

ckparrothead
06-10-2003, 03:12 PM
The Rams did not change their identity as a team. A team identity does not include "Offense that scores ton of points, defense that doesn't stop anyone"

If anything the Rams attempted to reach back to their identity in 1999 when they actually WON the super bowl. They were a pass-happy tons of fun and points offense utilizing Marshall Faulk as a RB mismatching him against linebackers, utilizing three and four WR sets and passing downfield a whole lot, with a defense whose SPECIALTY was victimizing offenses who were attempting to play "catch-up" with the Rams by attacking the air. That DE who is on the Rams now Kevin somethin was in his glory days, they were getting pressure from every angle, and their secondary was coming up with big turnovers. Statistically, in 1999 they were one of the top defenses in the NFL. In 2000 their defense was absolutely terrible so in the offseason they made a ton of moves to try and get that defense back up to snuff. This is NOT to confused with an identity change. Every team wants to play good defense.

Your example would be a valid one if the Rams had given away Isaac Bruce or Torry Holt and added a blocking specialty fullback. The Rams, though, giving away Isaac Bruce or Torry Holt? Yeah, right.

PHINFAN4LIFE
06-10-2003, 03:14 PM
Youre so right Tonk, guess the rest of the league should just pack it up and not even play the season, huh! The bills will be hands and feet above the rest!

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by MDFINFAN


I asked Ton and Clump who would come in if Drew went down and how they feel about their teams, having seen a response yet.

is tatonka.. or tonka.. or tonk.. but ton.. ouch.. :D

one of the most interesting thing this preseason will be to see if travis brown can take #2 from VanPelt.. i think he can. i like the guy alot.

van pelt is the perfect back up qb.. he has the respect of the team, can lead the team, and has starting experience. he doesnt have the cannon that bledsoe does but not many do. he would do fine for a stretch.. if it was a season thing, brown would be teh guy probably.. i feel good about both of them.

see, you can point out, what if you lose your qb.. but you can say that about TONS of teams.. you dont even know what griese will look like for you guys.. we was not impressive in denver since his one probowl year. he has been drunk every since.

and what if ricky goes down? your in trouble.. just like most other teams would be.

Clumpy
06-10-2003, 03:21 PM
http://64.62.162.137/boardvb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18050&pagenumber=1

Gonk
06-10-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Tatonka


is tatonka.. or tonka.. or tonk.. but ton.. ouch.. :D

one of the most interesting thing this preseason will be to see if travis brown can take #2 from VanPelt.. i think he can. i like the guy alot.

van pelt is the perfect back up qb.. he has the respect of the team, can lead the team, and has starting experience. he doesnt have the cannon that bledsoe does but not many do. he would do fine for a stretch.. if it was a season thing, brown would be teh guy probably.. i feel good about both of them.

see, you can point out, what if you lose your qb.. but you can say that about TONS of teams.. you dont even know what griese will look like for you guys.. we was not impressive in denver since his one probowl year. he has been drunk every since.

and what if ricky goes down? your in trouble.. just like most other teams would be.

Van Pelt is alright, but I wouldn't claim him to be "the perfect back up qb." Hell, last year- Lucas was the perfect back-up QB and look where that got us.

...and don't pull the "he has been drunk" card on Griese, or I'll have to pull the "I SWEAR SHE LOOKED 18" card on Henry :lol:

Predaphin
06-10-2003, 03:23 PM
As long as Williams is there coach, the Bills will never improve.

ckparrothead
06-10-2003, 03:26 PM
The "Dude, sorry" post was directed at Baalworship not you MD. What I was trying to say is that the Rams team identity was score tons of points through speed through the air and with Marshall, and utilize a defense that has the ability to victimize other offenses when they try to play "catch-up" and get into predictable situations. To change their team identity would be if like they attempted to turn into a clock control offense with a bend-but-don't-break defense or something.

What the Bills are trying to do right now is do just that, IMO.


price was gone no matter what.. so we got a first round pick for him. he was not worth 5+mill a year. reed had over 500 yards last season, dropped only 2 balls all season, and had the best rookie season for a wr in bills history. he can be every bit as good as a guy like hines ward.

If that isn't the biggest bit of Bills homerism I've seen in a while I dont know what is. We didnt ask for excuses as to why Peerless left, merely the acknowledgement that he IS indeed gone, which means a pro bowl caliber WR has left your team and is being replaced by a 2nd year unproven guy who merely caught for 500 yards last year.

All I saw in that long azz post was a bunch of homeristic optimism, excuse-making, and rationalizing. The only good point was that Crosby is going to be the starting FB and therefore Gash's arrival doesn't mean much about the FB position.

I like how somehow, some way, losing Peerless Price won't affect the offense whatsoever, and yet, getting Jeff Posey and Angelo Crowell to replace "the small" Keith Newman is just an OBVIOUS upgrade.

Since when was Dainon Sidney a projected starter in Tennessee? Gee, and I thought they had Samari Rolle over there and drafted Andre Dyson in the first round to be their starters...

Blah blah blah blah FREAKING blah.

PhinPhreak
06-10-2003, 03:30 PM
While I agree that the Bills can say they upgraded on Defense, I don't know how they can say they upgraded their offense. Not saying they haven't, but at this point there are to many unknowns about their offense to say if it will be better or not.

We can debate all we want about Reed but truth is until he proves what he can do as a #2 receiver then he is still an unknown. It took Moulds 3 years to finally prove himself. There is such a major difference between being the 3rd WR and the 2nd WR on a team that had the talent the Bills had at WR. I will reserve judgement on the offense till the season starts.

I think that there is no way you can judge a player that is unproven, the best that you have is speculation.

That would be like the Fins Fans saying that in Jimmy's first year that Zach, Jason and the rest of the rookies were an upgrade to what was there before them, turns out they were but there was no way to know this before the season and only a homer would think otherwise.

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by ckparrothead


If that isn't the biggest bit of Bills homerism I've seen in a while I dont know what is. .

you must be used to homerism from reading here so much..

you wanted an explaination, i gave one.

fact is peerless was NOT a probowl WR.. never has been.. and i personally dont think he will succeed as the falcons number 1.

did we lose 1200 yards receiving from him? yes..

will we definately need all that this year with an improved offense? doubtful.

that is as nonhomer as i can put it.

but i am sure you have more to say about how the bills have not improved.. blah blah blah blah.

if you want.. we can just keep talking about how the fish will be 16-0 with perfect defense and a team that has no holes.

John from Hemet
06-10-2003, 03:42 PM
One thing that nobody is talking about with the bills is the fact their offensive line was very young, inexperienced, and had almost the entire group changing positions last year....yet still put a qb, wide reciever, and running back in the pro bowl....then made the 2nd option reciever the top reciever in free agency

It all starts up front.....new aquisition left tackle Trey Teague moved to center, right tackle Jonus Jennings moved to left, and they played a rookie offensive tackle Mike Williams on the right side.....

When you consider how well they did last year....and all those guys have had a year to work together....coupled with bringing in a good experienced offensive line coach from the Packers......

Yeah...this team is going to be improved

VanDolPhan
06-10-2003, 03:47 PM
Heh after all the Bills pokes at the homerism on this board boy does their homerism show through on this one.

The Bills made good strides to improve themselves on defense and provided that they gel their run defense should become average instead of pathetic. Which should give us our first real good look at Winfield/Clements to see if they are the real deal or not. I still think the Bills will have a hard time pressuring the QB and they will end up blitzing their LB's a lot to make up for it. Safeties are still questionable.

On offense there is 2 real big questions:

A) Can Henry be the focus of the Bills offense after a year in which every opponent was focused on the passing game.
B) Can Reed match up on #2 corners.

What made it hard to line up against the Bills was the fact they could spread you out. Moulds/Price and Reed was a great match up on nickel corners which gave running room to Henry to make all those runs to the outside and you had to respect the FB out of the backfield. If A or B fails the Bills offense (yup so explosive they were only 4 spots ahead of the phins offense!) will sputter somewhat.

Now in the almighty Bills homerism these questions are already answered to themselves. Just brimming with confidence. Just remember Bills fans. The WR position is a tricky thing. Just ask our very own Chambers who lit up 3rd corners but had a setback adjusting to #1 corners. Also don't expect Shaw to really light up any nickel corners. He had enough trouble in the pass happy offense of the Jags getting anything going last year.

MDFINFAN
06-10-2003, 03:49 PM
Tatonka , finally someone hit a nerve with you, that was the most passionate, homerphobic response I've seen in a while..You didn't write anything in that post that the phin fans here, don't write about their team, and you were sarcassic for weeks...that's why I kept asking you to write about how you felt about the bills..I wanted to see the difference..and quite frankly there was no difference on how you thought of your team, compared to how we think of our team. Basically you gave your WR's a pass..the same as us..you gave your OL a pass...the same as us..you down played your TE position..Drew uses all weapons available to him..but you may be right, he didn't use reimersma as much, I didn't watch all your games, but I thought he was pretty good. Your CB's are not even close to as good as where you rate them..who did they stop last year...except for Lucas, who threw right to them....Now that you've posted this we can come back to it from time to time, when you make your next post rebuttal when fin fan states his thought..don't edit it..I definelty want to come back.:D

rafael
06-10-2003, 03:56 PM
IMO the Bills improved, but not as much as some claim. Spikes(which I think was a great signing) and the rest of the defensive additions could move their D from the bottom to the middle. This is a huge upgrade. Their O, however, got worse. There is no way, except in a homer's mind, that losing your #2 WR (probowl, I think) and replacing him with a 2nd year guy doesn't hurt your O. I like Reed and I guess its possible that he could explode, but the odds are greatly stacked against it. I think the D's improvement is greater than the O's decline so the net result is overall improvement, but not that much.

John from Hemet
06-10-2003, 04:06 PM
Despite how horrible the D was.....(and it was very bad) this team was just a couple of wins away from winning the division...they were in it right down till the end....

The problem for the bills isn't the same as it is for the fins...the fins really dont have that number one "have to double em" option wide reciver.....and even with the aquisition of Greasy they dont have the pro bowl type QB.....they have a all world running back and a so so offensive line......

The bills dont have that problem and it isn't homerism.....the facts are there...they have the best QB in the division and one of the best in the league.....a running back who really should be considered top 5....and a bonified pro bowl reciever in Moulds who takes double teams and still produces....

Now when you have all that stuff......you can afford to be patient with a talented young guy like Josh Reed.....he isn't going to have to do it all...just take advantage of single coverage.....

We will be just fine......

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 04:08 PM
i edited for spelling, honey..

it looks like from the pole results, that my opinion really doesnt matter.. you may have some intelligent fans here..

or maybe 99.9 percent of you are good enough to see improvement, and gonk voted 5 times for no :D

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 04:13 PM
to be honest.. if you look at the last half of the season.. our offense really wasnt as good as you are making it to be anyway..

it was average..

it gets old debating it though.. because there will be no definate answer until they play.. i think reed will be good.. you dont.. we will see.. that is all i can say..

i think that the te's arent used much and dont make a big difference.. you do.. we will see..

i think henry can actually be better than last year.. you dont.. we'll see..

i think the offensive line can be just as good if not better..

i think there are questions about LDE and FS that need to be answered, but it will work out..

i think shaw will match up fine against a 3rd cb and be able to gain 500 yards which he did against number 2cbs last year..

i think the bills are improved.. you dont..

we'll see..

i think the dolphins have no holes, have a perfect defense and fans should get their plane tickets now..

we'll see.

ckparrothead
06-10-2003, 04:23 PM
did we lose 1200 yards receiving from him? yes..

will we definately need all that this year with an improved offense? doubtful

Nice to see that you agree with me then Tatonka, you're right, Takeo Spikes and Peerless Price DO balance each other out. My beef with your long post was basically you did your best to rationalize every position as either staying JUST as effective as last year, or getting MORE effective. That is simply not the case when the Bills have so obviously sacrificed offensive superiority for a better defense.


Despite how horrible the D was.....(and it was very bad) this team was just a couple of wins away from winning the division...they were in it right down till the end....

Big reason why they were, is because they had one of the most effective scoring machine offenses in the NFL. Now, they won't. Simple as that. Who knows if the change in team identity will take or if it will blow up in their faces.

Considering the fact that Travis Henry did all of his damage in a spread wide open offense that featured 2 pro bowl caliber WRs, and 3rd one who is as Bills fans claim, talented enough to take the place of one of those pro bowl caliber WRs...yet he fumbled like 15 times, why exactly is Travis Henry a top 5 runningback? And ehem, if thats the case why exactly did they draft Willis McGahee to completely take over for Henry within 2 years?

I think if the Bills try and run a ball-control offense this year with Travis Henry taking on a bigger role than before, they'll see exactly WHY they drafted Willis McGahee to be the future at the position.

John from Hemet
06-10-2003, 04:32 PM
No....that is incorrect

Travis Henry was having a huge year regardless of how the passing game was doing.......

As the year progressed....our offense bogged down BECAUSE we were not being balanced enough....we were passing the ball when we should have been running it....


The thing I look most forward to this year (beside finally getting back to the playoffs) is putting all of these "well Peerless Price is gone so now we suck on offense" posters in check....

Peerless Price was a good receiver who was a product of the system and of having a awesome quarterback, compiled with teams being forced to play honest due to a great running game......his speed in my opinion was very overrated.....and he had a tendancy over his whole career in Buffalo to make a stupid mistake at the wrong moment......while being single covered most of the time.....

When Josh Reed comes in and has a great year....which I beleive he will.......the bills will be laughing all the way to the playoffs....Takeo Spikes for Peerless Price?....oh I take that trade in a heartbeat

MDFINFAN
06-10-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Tatonka
i edited for spelling, honey..

it looks like from the pole results, that my opinion really doesnt matter.. you may have some intelligent fans here..

or maybe 99.9 percent of you are good enough to see improvement, and gonk voted 5 times for no :D

Honey:lol: and I just love you too.

and that's the point, the finfans here know you improved..when it comes the phins, our D didn't have to do anything close to what you had to do to upgrade..to be honest, if you brought 4 semi stars for your D..it would have been considered an upgrade or improvement. We felt we needed improvement too..so we bring in Seau for Rogers, which we consider an upgrade..We bring in Buckley to complete with Fletcher, we consider that an upgrade. We bring in Knight to complete with Freeman, we bring in Zgonina and let Hailey go to the skins, we felt a starter from the Rams was a better bu...we consider those upgrades, or at the very least, great depth. On a D that was ranked #3 in the NFL..But it won't be looked at the same way as your upgrades, because our D didn't play as badly as your D.

On O, we bring more WR's..Moulds is a pro bowler, we're trying to get there..CC has good hands and speed and now he's in his 3rd year like Moulds, when Moulds became Moulds..Our 2nd is better than your 2nd at this point...Our 3rd had more yards than your 3rd and led his team last year..and got better as the year went on. Our OL is as about even with your OL..Our RB's are good as is yours, your QB is one of the best in the league, and our's are serviceable. Both seem to be good teams..Miami has a little edge because the nucleus had played together for awhile and added a little pepper, your D..has a lot of new faces, which I'm saying is bad..I sited the RAM's in a earlier post...But your O has changed a lot also..so we don't know if they're as good as last year's O..but who knows, you may have gotten the final ingredients...but, we may have also. "On Any Given Sunday" that's what it comes down to.

BeatCrazy2
06-10-2003, 04:42 PM
Pennington is probably the best QB in the East right now


What the he11 is so good about pennington? I'd say he's the worst QB in the AFC east right now. :jetssuck:

To say he is better than Bledsoe is absolutely ridiculous, Brady led the patriots to the superbowl and is a very smart QB, and well, we all know what Fiedler can do when he's healthy and we will see what griese brings to the table. Of course , I do hate the jets more than any other team in the league but this has nothing to do with it. He just did nothing for anyone to say he is the best QB in our division.
I'll just assume you were kidding.

-81- McMichael
06-10-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by BeatCrazy2
What the he11 is so good about pennington? I'd say he's the worst QB in the AFC east right now.

:jetssuck:

I'll just assume you were kidding.

Seriously, IMO, I think that Pennington IS the NEXT Bledsoe. Also, Bledsoe (IMO) is on HIS way out. Not mobile, takes sacks, forces the ball, ie throw INT's, and his #2 weapon will be dancing the Dirty Bird this year.

Here's my bet/guess: Fiedler has a higher QB rating than Bledsoe at year's end. In fact, I'll go so far as say that he'll have the highest rating in the East this year. In the 90's.

BeatCrazy2
06-10-2003, 05:01 PM
After playing our defense twice a year, all three QB's will have their ratings drop quite nicely.
I would have to disagree about Bledsoe, its true he isn't very mobile but he is still very accurate(kind of like someone that used to play for us,with 27 braces on his legs). I think it will hurt him a little without Price but why do you think peerless blew up like that last year. Because Bledsoe was his QB. I could see Reed having that same type of breakout year this season. Plus they have a good back in Henry to take some pressure of Bledsoe.
I agree that Fiedler will have a very good season though. He could very well end up in the pro bowl IF he stays healthy.
I am just wondering, What was it about Pennington that makes you think he is such a future superstar?

FinFan4Life814
06-10-2003, 05:04 PM
dude....wut r u smoking comparing pennington to bledsoe? bledsoe can throw a ball thru a brick wall, and hes been consitently good for like 10 yrs now. N Pennington....I prob have a better arm den he does! I'm exaggerating der, but u get my point. Plus, he only had 1 decent yr (a healthy Jay woulda out-played him last yr).

Bodzilla29
06-10-2003, 05:19 PM
buffalo upgraded their defense most definately....sam adams is a big guy that will unquestionably work well with pat next to him.....problem is, if he isn't motivated he wont be effective in the 4th qtr because he wont be in premier shape......

spikes is a HUGE addition......at this point in their careers he dwarfs seau.....i's be much happier with spikes, but this is a salary cap era! i'm NOT sold on posey at all and feel he is a similar player to newman.....newman seemed to be at his best rushing the passer.....

nickle back is upgraded, but sidney is a nickle back for a reason....he is NOT starting material......tennessee's backfield was a weakness for a while.....and wire has much to prove before you can be comfortable there.....

schobel showed promise, but needs to get much better......you really have a bunch of nobodies and question marks after that......you can be optimistic, but the reality is that most of them are scrubs......

on offense your line is a year older and should get better....

your TEs are mediocre at best.....neither is a threat in the passing game, but both are good blockers......

fb, as you have pointed out features crosby, who is average at best, for now......and you have some leadership in gash....which is all he is good for now.....

wr.....shaw is not very good....reed should have a good year, but not as good as price was last year....

i just don't get how gilbride is going to operate with the major lack of weapons.....balance has never been gilbride's strong suite....he is a pass first coach......and you guys lost a lot of horses from your pass game,.....even if they were ineffective lat year they were more dangerous in the pass game then what you have now.....

buffalo improved on paper, ya....but i question how much their record will improve.....

MDFINFAN
06-10-2003, 05:37 PM
Hey, why was this moved? It was within the prevy of the Fin's forum, kind of comparing the Bills to the fins..it was also a good subject matter on the board.

John from Hemet
06-10-2003, 05:48 PM
Bodzilla....you are right on a lot of that stuff...

PS....on the thing with Sam Adams...that is why we made him eat a incentive laden contract....money is the only thing that motivates him........

John from Hemet
06-10-2003, 05:51 PM
Bodzilla,

I missed the part about major lack of weapons.....Rierisma and Centers were hardly used last year.....the pro bowl QB, running back, and wide reciever are still here.....so where is the lack?

zevo
06-10-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Gonk
I don't think they did. Yes, they made some decent pick-ups on defense with Takeo Spikes and Sam Adams, but lost a bunch of key offensive guys.

On offense they lost Peerless Price, Larry Centers and Riesemara who were all a big part of the offense. The only one they brought in to replace those guys was FB Sam Gash to take Centers role. I don't think Gash is as good as he was, and think he won't be half as good as Centers was last year. They also lost K Mike Hollis.

Basically, they traded an awesome offense and a poor defense for a mediocre offense and mediocre defense... although they still have some major holes to fill all around (FS, SS, DE, CB, WR)

Did they improve?

this should go down as the most retarded post in the history of posting!

Gonk please step away from the keyboard, you have obviously proven that you cant handle it!

the funniest part of your post gonk was the reference to the spikes signing as a "decent" pickup! R u F'n kidding me? spikes was obviously the biggest defensive name out their , if not the biggest name in free agency! In fact he was the prize of FA!

Dude, u need to get real! Or atleast gain some football knowledge!

BSQX4
06-10-2003, 07:58 PM
MDFinFan, It's Van Pelt if Drew goes down and the club seems to think he's O.K. From what I've seen the guy is fine, is a good athlete and has some talent. Peerless was a big loss, very big, similar to the Jets losing Coles. The Bills passing attack can't be the same without Peerless, Moulds will get mucho attention-stop Moulds and the Buffalo pass attack is over. This puts alot of pressure on the running game and we'll just have to wait and see if it's up to the challenge. I personally doubt it. Bledsoe can flat out chuck the hell out of the ball and I respect him but he has fewer weapons and he can be pressured and blitzed big time especially if the run game isn't up to last years' standards. I think the off-season losses outweigh the gains.

Tatonka
06-10-2003, 09:24 PM
peerless was nothing prior to bledsoe.. period. and he wont be after.

Josh Reed
06-10-2003, 11:05 PM
I'm thinking Josh Reed will have more receiving yards this year than Peerless Price! Lets see who would you benefit more from having Eric Moulds lined up across from you or Brian Finneran? Hmmm tough call....lol:)

baalworship
06-11-2003, 08:33 AM
Okay Fin Fans. I will spell out how Pete Prisco is wrong.



1.Peerless Price 1252 yards 94 REC 9 TD's

2003 Predictions

Josh Reed 1000 yards 70 REC 7 TD's


2.Jay Riemersma 350 yards 32 REC 0 TD's

How can we replace those 2 REC's a game?

Mark Campbell 350 yards 32 REC 4 TD's


3. Larry Centers 388 yards 43 REC 0 TD's

Hmmm, do we have another running back we can use in the passing game?!

Travis Henry 600 yards 60 REC 3 TD's



And FINALLY Olandis Gary. Not receiving yards, but rushing yards!

Olandis Gary 400 yards rushing 2 TD's


There. That was too easy!

Keep in mind Bledsoe, Moulds, and Henry are the offense. Everyone else is a complimentary player and play supporting roles.

The biggest changes from offense will be the big, athletic offensive line now has a full year of experience and a new line coach. I actually think our offense can be BETTER next year. The game is won in the trenchs. Remember Indy? They had Manning, Harrison, and James. They STILL haven't found a real #2 but their offense was amazing. The reason is their line was also very good. The Bills success and failure on offense will come down to how well the offensive line plays and improves.

iceblizzard69
06-11-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Tatonka
peerless was nothing prior to bledsoe.. period. and he wont be after.


Yeah, because going from Bledsoe to Vick is downgrading. :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2

TigerJ
06-13-2003, 10:19 PM
Regardless of talent level, both Larry Centers and Jay Riemersma were underused last year. Compare their numbers with the previous season and you'll find receptions for both of them were well down last season. While neither Moore or Campbell are known for their speed or route running, they both have pretty reliable hands and will probably do what Buffalo needs them to do as well as Remiersma did last year. Remiersma, by the way had a number of costly drops. While the Bills signed Gash to replace Centers, they are actually fairly high on Crosby at fullback. Crosby is not as nifty as Centers at finding weaknesses underneath in the zone, but caught a number of passes last year, and did not have any drops to my recollection. Gash may have the reputation as a monster blocker, but Crosby is pretty good at blocking too. The one significant thing that Buffalo gave up on the offence was having a #2 receiver with speed. I wanted Buffalo to find some speed to replace Reed with, but nobody is a sure thing. Shaw is faster than Reed, but not a true burner. Antonio Brown is a CFL refugee with world class wheels, but there has to be a reason that he's been up in Canada. I'll bet it's not universal health care. James Jett has plenty of speed still but there's quite a few miles on those wheels. I just don't know how much of a negative the speed factor will be, but I believe the defence gained a lot more than the offence lost.

XoPhinsoX
06-14-2003, 02:55 PM
Offense was your strongside. The Dolphins upgraded theier D cause that's their strongside. Now you guys just have to hope the players you brought in on D can perform as well as you think they can. . . .

bledsoetomoulds
06-17-2003, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Muck
Absolutely they improved. Especially on defense.

Heart and soul? He was and is a trash talking moss/owens wannabe. The penalties he cost the bills are enough to "lose" him for McGahee

bledsoetomoulds
06-17-2003, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by Predaphin34
As long as Williams is there coach, the Bills will never improve.

who's girl's arm is that?

bledsoetomoulds
06-17-2003, 06:08 AM
Sorry Muck, qouted wrong one

TigerJ
06-18-2003, 11:15 PM
Predaphin: "As long as Williams is there coach, the Bills will never improve."

Um. Buffalo went from 3-13 two years ago to 8-8 last year under Williams. Whether Williams is good enough to take the Bills to the playoffs is yet to be determined, but I think it's pretty well established the Bills can improve under Williams.

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by TigerJ
Predaphin: "As long as Williams is there coach, the Bills will never improve."

Um. Buffalo went from 3-13 two years ago to 8-8 last year under Williams. Whether Williams is good enough to take the Bills to the playoffs is yet to be determined, but I think it's pretty well established the Bills can improve under Williams.

They certainly couldent have gotten much worse...

well, scratch that, they could have gotten 3 games worse. ;)

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 12:33 AM
Today Peter King of SI said the Bills have very much improved, and definitely have a team capable of taking the East, more so than Miami

napalmdeath2all
06-19-2003, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Muck
Absolutely they improved. Especially on defense.



No Kidding. Go Bills

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
Today Peter King of SI said the Bills have very much improved, and definitely have a team capable of taking the East, more so than Miami

Yep, because Peter King has been on the money so many times in the past. :lol:

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 05:16 AM
who's better? ESPN's Clayton, or Mort? gimme a break

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
Today Peter King of SI said the Bills have very much improved, and definitely have a team capable of taking the East, more so than Miami

oh.. and you don't happen to have a link... becaus ei just read what he wrote today, and this is what I found.


Travis Henry, you must be royally ticked off.

I don't blame you one bit. And I don't buy what I read in my Monday morning paper, that after having a chance to talk with the Bills you're fine with their decision to make one of the most stunning selections in modern NFL Draft history by taking Miami running back Willis McGahee 23rd overall. You weren't born yesterday. You should know, however, despite what you hear from McGahee and his folks, that he won't play this year. The Bills would never put an 80-percent McGahee on the field, and you can mark my words: He won't play this year. For now, the job's all yours, along with some good insurance in new backup Olandis Gary. But you also know that if McGahee can walk and chew gum at the same time by next offseason, you'll be dangled as trade bait as quickly as you can say, "Ricky Williams."

I didn't see anything in his article about Buffalo being more capable than Miami of Taking the east.

So please... a link?

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
who's better? ESPN's Clayton, or Mort? gimme a break

note, I'm not quoting either of them, so your bringing them up makes no snese, but then again, things said by bills fans rarely do :lol:

napalmdeath2all
06-19-2003, 05:29 AM
Yippe Skippee. The Dolphins added a "Coach on the field' on defense. YAY. Seau is beyond his prime. Regardless, it will not help out your pee poor offense that now has a QB Contriversy. You thought it was funny back then but now its our turn.

The first game that Fielder loses, you will be screaming for Greise. If you guys lose Ricky then, as usual, you make up any excuse in the book to why you didn't win the division... AGAIN.


My favorite quote from any Miami fan - "If Ray Lucas ............."

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Barbarian


note, I'm not quoting either of them, so your bringing them up makes no snese, but then again, things said by bills fans rarely do :lol:


It wasn't an article, he happens to be on our radio show every week, and i was quoting from the show. So if you have a station that has him on, maybe you can ask him what he thinks. I'm not trying to start an argument, only stating what he said

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds



It wasn't an article, he happens to be on our radio show every week, and i was quoting from the show. So if you have a station that has him on, maybe you can ask him what he thinks. I'm not trying to start an argument, only stating what he said

suuuure he did... :lol:

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 05:43 AM
haha, you got me, I made it up. It was really Steven King. Seriously, he said they've drastically improved their defense, and can challenge Miami for the east, maybe I can find a "link"

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
haha, you got me, I made it up. It was really Steven King. Seriously, he said they've drastically improved their defense, and can challenge Miami for the east, maybe I can find a "link"

now THAT, I believe... but thats definately different from what you said before.

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 05:49 AM
ya, i notice i said more so than Miami the first post, my error. He did say give Miami a challenge. At least i'm honest, 2nd time around! lol

napalmdeath2all
06-19-2003, 05:50 AM
Ummm....

Last time I checked, Miami didn't win the AFC east last year and Neither did the Bills.

However, the Bills DID improve their team this year. And IMO Miami did somewhat improve their...... Defense? LOL

Barbarian is starting to sound pathetic. What's next ? the XFL signee that is gonna take over the top? We are talking computer chips and you are talking potato chips

But If Ray Lucas..............

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 05:52 AM
^^^^^don't ask me Finfans

?????

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
ya, i notice i said more so than Miami the first post, my error. He did say give Miami a challenge. At least i'm honest, 2nd time around! lol

LOL.. it's all good man. :)

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by napalmdeath2all
Ummm....

Last time I checked, Miami didn't win the AFC east last year and Neither did the Bills.

However, the Bills DID improve their team this year. And IMO Miami did somewhat improve their...... Defense? LOL

Barbarian is starting to sound pathetic. What's next ? the XFL signee that is gonna take over the top? We are talking computer chips and you are talking potato chips

But If Ray Lucas..............

Wow dipstick, you might be talking something, but it's definately not english because you arent making any sense at all here boyo.

This must be the saddest attempt at smak I have ever seen, not only is it in the wrong forum for this weak crap, it's not even good smak at that.

You wanna try and make a point next time, or is that basic skill out of your range of abilities?

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 05:59 AM
Barbarian, thanx, i cant complain, I see the way some dolphin fans are treated at our site. I just get sick of the "you suck", "we rule" some people have to say. And I'm not saying that's limited to here, 'cuz i'm in some heated, STUPID, debates in B-lo

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
^^^^^don't ask me Finfans

?????

Don't worry man, most of us (most not all) have figured out how to seperate out the intelligent Bills fans from... well, knuckleheads like that. :cool:

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
Barbarian, thanx, i cant complain, I see the way some dolphin fans are treated at our site. I just get sick of the "you suck", "we rule" some people have to say. And I'm not saying that's limited to here, 'cuz i'm in some heated, STUPID, debates in B-lo

I hear that.. I'm in a few different forums (both football and basketball) and I see way too much pathetic attempting of smak in all of them instead of real discussion.

Comes with the terratory unfortunately.

napalmdeath2all
06-19-2003, 06:05 AM
Of course its not making sense to you.

Maybe this does


Miami vs Buffalo last year 0 - 2


Get it now, tough guy? Just think. If Miami would have won 1 of those games, who Knows how far they would have went

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 06:06 AM
so who you like in b-ball? I'm a 76er fan from way back. Posters of Dr.J and Moses. yankees, sabres for others

napalmdeath2all
06-19-2003, 06:07 AM
Plus, now Miami has to play Buffalo Dec 21 in Buffalo.

Suppose that may be the if question next year

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by napalmdeath2all
Of course its not making sense to you.

Maybe this does


Miami vs Buffalo last year 0 - 2


Get it now, tough guy? Just think. If Miami would have won 1 of those games, who Knows how far they would have went

Buffalo vs Miami the previous 2 years 0 - 4... wow... I guess that numbers not just for superbowl visits is it?

If Miami had a real backup QB they would have won one of those games last year (maybe not both, but definately the first one in Miami)

oh wait, now they do.

Don't worry though, Jay should be Starting against y'all this year, and he owns the Bills (4-0 as a starter against the bills and a 100+ QB Rating)

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by bledsoetomoulds
so who you like in b-ball? I'm a 76er fan from way back. Posters of Dr.J and Moses. yankees, sabres for others

Well, if you notice the California Location under my name... long time Laker Fan here (hate the Kings with a passion) through the good times and the bad for the past 20 years.

I was a Yankee fan after Oakland traded away my favorite player in the world (Ricky Henderson at the time) to them, so I followed them throughthe Henderson/Mattingly/Winfield era... but I can't stand baseball now, love to play, but pro baseball has alienated me.

bledsoetomoulds
06-19-2003, 06:35 AM
i agree about the b s in MLB. But i'm going to Yankee Stadium(2nd time), for old-timers weekend, and old-timers now, are guys I rooted for. Man i feel old

Barbarian
06-19-2003, 06:56 AM
I can dig that... if I was in the area, I would probably jump on that... I would love to see the old timers... at least with them there was still some sense of love for the game and the magic was still there... not like today. :(