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alienalias
02-03-2007, 04:14 PM
The greatest WR of all time, Jerry Rice, ran a 4.6 40 yard dash. Our 1st round flop and pick in 1991, WR Randall "Thrill" Hill, ran a 4.2 40. Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63. Chad Johnson ran a 4.57. Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72. Chad Jackson was the fastest player in last years draft, yet had guys like Jabaar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and an aging Troy Brown start above him.
Ted Ginn is just another Sinorice Moss or Troy Williamson. Insane speed, shifty guy, but not an NFL WR. Everyone is on this guys jock for one reason, and that's because of his speed. If you watch his highlights at http://youtube.com/watch?v=TApPxbmGzP4 , clearly most of them are kick or punt return highlights.
Even worse, investing in WR in the 1st round has notoriously and traditionally been one of the worst ways to spend one's first round pick. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=776&Category=11

Marvin Harrison is the rare WR who was the one of the fastest players in his draft to become a superstar. Yet, even though he doesn't have anywhere close to the same speed today, he is still elite. Ginn is considered a sloppy route runner, with average hands, but "tremendous upside". Harrison is the master of precision and mastering his craft, and it's his hands and route running that made him and have kept him elite... again, not pure speed.

There are some WR's who have run at the top of their class for 40 times with times in the 4.3's... such as Chambers, Evans, and Santana Moss. But who would you take, those speed guys whom are very good, or the likes of "slower" dudes like Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, Roy Williams, Anquin Boldin, Laveraneus Coles, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, etc? It's all about football smarts, football ability, route running, hands, etc... not simple, blazing speed. Think Steve Largent, one of the best WR's of all time. Hands, heart, route-running. Ginn is simply too big a risk. Unless Calvin Johnson falls, I say pass on WR. But if forced to choose between Jarrett or Ginn, I go with Jarrett.
Consider the following history of 40 times, which I could only find reliable info from 1999 to date. It is a list of all 1st rd picks from the last year, along with some stars from latter rounds. Very few pure speedsters make NFL stars. I consider Ginn to be most similar to Troy Williamson. Read the bio on Williamson, again, eerily similar to Ginns profile. Anyway:

1996-Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens* (3rd rd).
1997-Ike Hilliard, Yatil Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth
1998-Kevin Dyson, Randy Moss, Marcus Nash
1999-Torry Holt 4.44, David Boston 4.47, Troy Edwards 4.57. *Fastest times: 4.24 Rondel Menendez, and 4.33 Karsten Bailey.
2000-Peter Warrick 4.48, Plaxico Burress 4.6, Travis Taylor 4.4, Sylvester Morris 4.61, R Jay Soward 4.37, Laveranues Coles 4.47* (3rd rd), Darrell Jackson 4.58* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.35 Chris Cole, 4.37 R Jay Soward.
2001-David Terrell 4.43, Koren Robinson 4.61, Rod Gardner 4.48, Santana Moss 4.31, Freddie Mitchell 4.46, Reggie Wayne 4.45, Chad Johnson 4.57* (2nd rd), Steve Smith 4.41* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.31 Santana Moss, 4.33 Chris Chambers.
2002-Donte Stallworth 4.48, Ashley Lelie 4.35, Javon Walker 4.38. *Fastest times: 4.31 Aaron Lockett, 4.32 Tim Carter.
2003-Charles Rogers 4.4, Andre Johnson 4.4, Bryant Johnson 4.57, Anquan Boldin 4.72* (2nd rd). *Fastest times: 4.34 Tyrone Calico, 4.38 Bethel Johnson.
2004-Larry Fitzgerald 4.63, Roy Williams 4.48, Reggie Williams 4.62, Michael Clayton 4.6, Michael Jenkins 4.6, Rashaun Woods 4.47. *Fastest times: 4.33 Carlos Francis, 4.36 Drew Carter.
2005-Braylon Edwards 4.45, Troy Williamson 4.32, Mike Williams 4.56, Matt Jones 4.42, Mark Clayton 4.4, Roddy White 4.47. *Fastest players: 4.28 Jerome Mathis, 4.32 Troy Williamson.
2006-Santonio Holmes 4.35, Marques Colston 4.5* (7th rd). *Fastest times: 4.32 Chad Jackson, 4.34 Willie Reid.
(Mostly found on NFLdraftscout.com)
Please, just say NO to Ginn! :dolphins:
Thoughts?

TotoreMexico
02-03-2007, 04:19 PM
Great post!

I don't want Ginn

byroan
02-03-2007, 04:20 PM
So because he's fast, he sucks?

tmny99
02-03-2007, 04:23 PM
Why do you compare Ginn to Sinorice Moss? Why not compare him to some of the other smaller fast receivers like Santana Moss or Steve Smith? Or he might excel in the return game ala D. Hall who knows? There are only a few guys that I like at our position and Ginn is one of them because he's a receiver who stretches the field and has an impact in the return game.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 04:23 PM
So because he's fast, he sucks?
Yes, that was my exact argument. Anyone fast sucks. Great post. :shakeno:

alen1
02-03-2007, 04:25 PM
nice post but i still want him .... speed is speed and hes only been a reciever for only two years so u cant really say much about him other then hes still developing his touch.

byroan
02-03-2007, 04:25 PM
Yes, that was my exact argument. Anyone fast sucks. Great post. :shakeno:

Your entire post is based on NFL WR's 40 times. Your argument for not taking Ginn is because of his 40 time. So before you go shaking your head, know what you're talking about.

Lab3003
02-03-2007, 04:26 PM
Who should they target then? Dwayne Jarrett?

alienalias
02-03-2007, 04:31 PM
Why do you compare Ginn to Sinorice Moss? Why not compare him to some of the other smaller fast receivers like Santana Moss or Steve Smith? Or he might excel in the return game ala D. Hall who knows? There are only a few guys that I like at our position and Ginn is one of them because he's a receiver who stretches the field and has an impact in the return game.
No, I was saying the likelihood of his becoming as good of those guys is incredibly small. Ginn's speed is why everyone loves him. Watch his highlights, they are mostly punt and kick returns. You don't spend the #9 pick on a kick returner. Chamber is just as fast as Ginn with his 4.3 40 time. But clearly that speed doesn't always translate to becoming a Steve Smith or Marvin Harrison. We have greater needs. I'd like Ginn at maybe the bottom 1/3 of the 1st round... but not at the #9. WR position as it is, is an incredible risk in rd 1 (see previous links). Especially drafting an unpolished WR with average hands as Ginn, whose main positives are he is ridiculously fast and shifty... in the NFL that speed will not translate into as much of an asset. EVERYone is fast in the NFL.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 04:34 PM
Your entire post is based on NFL WR's 40 times. Your argument for not taking Ginn is because of his 40 time. So before you go shaking your head, know what you're talking about.
:shakeno:No, I'm saying that JUST because someone is fast, doesn't mean they're worth the #9. Why does everyone love Ginn? Because of his Devin Hester, Dante Hall type of highlights... his SPEED.
We have much greater needs, than the luxury of drafting a kick returner with our 1st rounder.:shakeno:

WA. FINSFAN
02-03-2007, 04:35 PM
TMNY99,

you need to change the paragraph at the bottom or your sig. he may be the least paid HC, but barry switzer for one made the playoffs his first three seasons, winning the SB in his second season (95'). sorry to call you on it but if you put EVER then you should be right about your info

phins3454
02-03-2007, 05:04 PM
So because he's fast, he sucks?

speed is nice.....for a punt returner, but to be a WR in the NFL you have to be aggresive and able to jump up and go after the ball, like Steve Smith with the panthers, like Chad Johnson with the Bengals, both are very aggresive, and Ted Ginn is not that guy!

phins3454
02-03-2007, 05:05 PM
The greatest WR of all time, Jerry Rice, ran a 4.6 40 yard dash. Our 1st round flop and pick in 1991, WR Randall "Thrill" Hill, ran a 4.2 40. Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63. Chad Johnson ran a 4.57. Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72. Chad Jackson was the fastest player in last years draft, yet had guys like Jabaar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and an aging Troy Brown start above him.
Ted Ginn is just another Sinorice Moss or Troy Williamson. Insane speed, shifty guy, but not an NFL WR. Everyone is on this guys jock for one reason, and that's because of his speed. If you watch his highlights at http://youtube.com/watch?v=TApPxbmGzP4 , clearly most of them are kick or punt return highlights.
Even worse, investing in WR in the 1st round has notoriously and traditionally been one of the worst ways to spend one's first round pick. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=776&Category=11

Marvin Harrison is the rare WR who was the one of the fastest players in his draft to become a superstar. Yet, even though he doesn't have anywhere close to the same speed today, he is still elite. Ginn is considered a sloppy route runner, with average hands, but "tremendous upside". Harrison is the master of precision and mastering his craft, and it's his hands and route running that made him and have kept him elite... again, not pure speed.

There are some WR's who have run at the top of their class for 40 times with times in the 4.3's... such as Chambers, Evans, and Santana Moss. But who would you take, those speed guys whom are very good, or the likes of "slower" dudes like Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, Roy Williams, Anquin Boldin, Laveraneus Coles, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, etc? It's all about football smarts, football ability, route running, hands, etc... not simple, blazing speed. Think Steve Largent, one of the best WR's of all time. Hands, heart, route-running. Ginn is simply too big a risk. Unless Calvin Johnson falls, I say pass on WR. But if forced to choose between Jarrett or Ginn, I go with Jarrett.
Consider the following history of 40 times, which I could only find reliable info from 1999 to date. It is a list of all 1st rd picks from the last year, along with some stars from latter rounds. Very few pure speedsters make NFL stars. I truly consider Ginn to be most similar to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. Read the bios on Warrick and Williamson, again, eerily similar to Ginns profile. Anyway:

1996-Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens* (3rd rd).
1997-Ike Hilliard, Yatil Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth
1998-Kevin Dyson, Randy Moss, Marcus Nash
1999-Torry Holt 4.44, David Boston 4.47, Troy Edwards 4.57. *Fastest times: 4.24 Rondel Menendez, and 4.33 Karsten Bailey.
2000-Peter Warrick 4.3, Plaxico Burress 4.6, Travis Taylor 4.4, Sylvester Morris 4.61, R Jay Soward 4.37, Laveranues Coles 4.47* (3rd rd), Darrell Jackson 4.58* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.35 Chris Cole, 4.37 R Jay Soward.
2001-David Terrell 4.43, Koren Robinson 4.61, Rod Gardner 4.48, Santana Moss 4.31, Freddie Mitchell 4.46, Reggie Wayne 4.45, Chad Johnson 4.57* (2nd rd), Steve Smith 4.41* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.31 Santana Moss, 4.33 Chris Chambers.
2002-Donte Stallworth 4.48, Ashley Lelie 4.35, Javon Walker 4.38. *Fastest times: 4.31 Aaron Lockett, 4.32 Tim Carter.
2003-Charles Rogers 4.4, Andre Johnson 4.4, Bryant Johnson 4.57, Anquan Boldin 4.72* (2nd rd). *Fastest times: 4.34 Tyrone Calico, 4.38 Bethel Johnson.
2004-Larry Fitzgerald 4.63, Roy Williams 4.48, Reggie Williams 4.62, Michael Clayton 4.6, Michael Jenkins 4.6, Rashaun Woods 4.47. *Fastest times: 4.33 Carlos Francis, 4.36 Drew Carter.
2005-Braylon Edwards 4.45, Troy Williamson 4.32, Mike Williams 4.56, Matt Jones 4.42, Mark Clayton 4.4, Roddy White 4.47. *Fastest players: 4.28 Jerome Mathis, 4.32 Troy Williamson.
2006-Santonio Holmes 4.35, Marques Colston 4.5* (7th rd). *Fastest times: 4.32 Chad Jackson, 4.34 Willie Reid.
(Mostly found on NFLdraftscout.com)
Please, just say NO to Ginn! :dolphins:
Thoughts?


excellent post man

I agree with you a 100%

Delfin 22
02-03-2007, 05:08 PM
Who should they target then? Dwayne Jarrett?


no.....target brady quinn

SQuinn17
02-03-2007, 05:10 PM
well what about the fast guys who are actually ballin? what about them? u can argue your point for the guys with speedy 40's too..so what?

Lab3003
02-03-2007, 05:24 PM
no.....target brady quinn I agree. See my website.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 05:32 PM
Why do you compare Ginn to Sinorice Moss? Why not compare him to some of the other smaller fast receivers like Santana Moss or Steve Smith? Or he might excel in the return game ala D. Hall who knows? There are only a few guys that I like at our position and Ginn is one of them because he's a receiver who stretches the field and has an impact in the return game.
Also, Santana Moss is the 'Canes all time leading WIDE RECEIVER in Miami's history. He is a true WR, not a glamourized and speedy returner. Steve Smith played on a 4-7, terrible Utah football team with even worse QB's... yet STILL matched Ginn in college stats. Ginn benefited from having a Heismann trophy winner throw to him and #1 or #2 team in the nation. Even so, Moss took 5 years to have a season worthy of being a 1st rd pick. If you want to rebuild, draft Ginn... he might be worth it in 4 or 5 years. Until then, he is a returner. But I want a guy who will make the most signicant, immediate impact at a need position... not a luxury position. The Bears took Hester as a luxury pick, and we simply have too many other needs at more important positions.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 05:33 PM
no.....target brady quinn
I'm also with ya on that thought...

finfan54
02-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Wide Receiver | Junior | Ohio St.
Ted Ginn Jr.
Height: 6-0 | Weight: 180 | 40-Time: 4.30

Career Statistics
Year GP Rec Yds YPC TD
2004 12 25 359 14.4 2
2005 12 51 803 15.7 4
2006 13 59 781 13.2 9
Totals 37 135 1,943 14.4 15

Anthony Gonzalez
Height: 6-0 | Weight: 195 | 40-Time: 4.40

Career Statistics
Year GP Rec Yds YPC TD
2003 DNP - - - -
2004 8 8 179 22.4 2
2005 12 28 373 13.3 3
2006 13 51 734 14.4 8
Totals 33 87 1,286 14.8 13

I do not see what the big deal is about Ginn. I mean really.

Geforce
02-03-2007, 05:34 PM
The greatest WR of all time, Jerry Rice, ran a 4.6 40 yard dash. Our 1st round flop and pick in 1991, WR Randall "Thrill" Hill, ran a 4.2 40. Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63. Chad Johnson ran a 4.57. Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72. Chad Jackson was the fastest player in last years draft, yet had guys like Jabaar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and an aging Troy Brown start above him.
Ted Ginn is just another Sinorice Moss or Troy Williamson. Insane speed, shifty guy, but not an NFL WR. Everyone is on this guys jock for one reason, and that's because of his speed. If you watch his highlights at http://youtube.com/watch?v=TApPxbmGzP4 , clearly most of them are kick or punt return highlights.
Even worse, investing in WR in the 1st round has notoriously and traditionally been one of the worst ways to spend one's first round pick. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=776&Category=11

Marvin Harrison is the rare WR who was the one of the fastest players in his draft to become a superstar. Yet, even though he doesn't have anywhere close to the same speed today, he is still elite. Ginn is considered a sloppy route runner, with average hands, but "tremendous upside". Harrison is the master of precision and mastering his craft, and it's his hands and route running that made him and have kept him elite... again, not pure speed.

There are some WR's who have run at the top of their class for 40 times with times in the 4.3's... such as Chambers, Evans, and Santana Moss. But who would you take, those speed guys whom are very good, or the likes of "slower" dudes like Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, Roy Williams, Anquin Boldin, Laveraneus Coles, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, etc? It's all about football smarts, football ability, route running, hands, etc... not simple, blazing speed. Think Steve Largent, one of the best WR's of all time. Hands, heart, route-running. Ginn is simply too big a risk. Unless Calvin Johnson falls, I say pass on WR. But if forced to choose between Jarrett or Ginn, I go with Jarrett.
Consider the following history of 40 times, which I could only find reliable info from 1999 to date. It is a list of all 1st rd picks from the last year, along with some stars from latter rounds. Very few pure speedsters make NFL stars. I truly consider Ginn to be most similar to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. Read the bios on Warrick and Williamson, again, eerily similar to Ginns profile. Anyway:

1996-Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens* (3rd rd).
1997-Ike Hilliard, Yatil Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth
1998-Kevin Dyson, Randy Moss, Marcus Nash
1999-Torry Holt 4.44, David Boston 4.47, Troy Edwards 4.57. *Fastest times: 4.24 Rondel Menendez, and 4.33 Karsten Bailey.
2000-Peter Warrick 4.3, Plaxico Burress 4.6, Travis Taylor 4.4, Sylvester Morris 4.61, R Jay Soward 4.37, Laveranues Coles 4.47* (3rd rd), Darrell Jackson 4.58* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.35 Chris Cole, 4.37 R Jay Soward.
2001-David Terrell 4.43, Koren Robinson 4.61, Rod Gardner 4.48, Santana Moss 4.31, Freddie Mitchell 4.46, Reggie Wayne 4.45, Chad Johnson 4.57* (2nd rd), Steve Smith 4.41* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.31 Santana Moss, 4.33 Chris Chambers.
2002-Donte Stallworth 4.48, Ashley Lelie 4.35, Javon Walker 4.38. *Fastest times: 4.31 Aaron Lockett, 4.32 Tim Carter.
2003-Charles Rogers 4.4, Andre Johnson 4.4, Bryant Johnson 4.57, Anquan Boldin 4.72* (2nd rd). *Fastest times: 4.34 Tyrone Calico, 4.38 Bethel Johnson.
2004-Larry Fitzgerald 4.63, Roy Williams 4.48, Reggie Williams 4.62, Michael Clayton 4.6, Michael Jenkins 4.6, Rashaun Woods 4.47. *Fastest times: 4.33 Carlos Francis, 4.36 Drew Carter.
2005-Braylon Edwards 4.45, Troy Williamson 4.32, Mike Williams 4.56, Matt Jones 4.42, Mark Clayton 4.4, Roddy White 4.47. *Fastest players: 4.28 Jerome Mathis, 4.32 Troy Williamson.
2006-Santonio Holmes 4.35, Marques Colston 4.5* (7th rd). *Fastest times: 4.32 Chad Jackson, 4.34 Willie Reid.
(Mostly found on NFLdraftscout.com)
Please, just say NO to Ginn! :dolphins:
Thoughts?


Very good post but 40 times are not the only thing teams look at when choosing a players, atleast the ones who do their homework.
You cannot really compare Ginn, Jr to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. First of all, the time you quoted on Warrick is not accurate. He ran a 4.55 at the combine which slower than listed on NFL Draft Scout and he was often injured. Troy Williamson was in a run first offense in college and never learned how to run routes properly. What he mostly ran was go or clear out routes. As a receiver he is raw and will take him some time to learn that speed alone will not make you successful in the NFL. It is what Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Javon Walker and some of the others you mention had to learn. Once they did, they became All-Pros.
To say that a player will suck because he runs a great 40 is...well...ignorant.

jim1
02-03-2007, 05:39 PM
Your entire post is based on NFL WR's 40 times. Your argument for not taking Ginn is because of his 40 time. So before you go shaking your head, know what you're talking about.

The guy makes a very interesting argument and you have to dump on it. Great post.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 05:46 PM
Very good post but 40 times are not the only thing teams look at when choosing a players, atleast the ones who do their homework.
You cannot really compare Ginn, Jr to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. First of all, the time you quoted on Warrick is not accurate. He ran a 4.55 at the combine which slower than listed on NFL Draft Scout and he was often injured. Troy Williamson was in a run first offense in college and never learned how to run routes properly. What he mostly ran was go or clear out routes. As a receiver he is raw and will take him some time to learn that speed alone will not make you successful in the NFL. It is what Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Javon Walker and some of the others you mention had to learn. Once they did, they became All-Pros.
To say that a player will suck because he runs a great 40 is...well...ignorant.
You misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted my entire point, which is... well... ignorant. :wink: First off, Warrick was the #3 pick overall, greatly in due part for his renowned, freaky SPEED. I found a number of stats showing his 40 time in the 4.4's. There are not only combine #'s, but also pro day #'s, personal workouts and the like. I generally used the site I referenced if their combine time was specified, but for guys as Warrick where there were no combine #'s specified on the site, I had to use secondary research from finding personal workouts or pro day workouts etc. Go examine Williamson's stats, profile, bio, etc... he virtually IS Ginn Jr in that regard. Williamson would've been a 2nd rounder at best, but his 4.3 SPEED vaulted him into the 1st round. If Ginn runs a 4.45, he's a high 2nd rounder. But he's a 4.3 guy just like Williamson and Warrick, so now he's a top 10 pick. Speed should not have as much weight toward a guys football skill, as it currently does. WR position involves much more than running fast. His scouting profile says he has average hands, with worldclass speed... sounds like olympic sprinter and former Chicago Bear Willie Gault. I want an all-around WR. Not a hyped returner. Show me some highlights of beautiful, over-the-shoulder catches, or diving grabs, or fingertip or shoelace grabs... not a short hitch turned into a big gain. Those big gains from short passes rarely work in the NFL. Again, EVERY one is fast in the NFL.

byroan
02-03-2007, 05:57 PM
The guy makes a very interesting argument and you have to dump on it. Great post.

Wasn't interesting to me.

byroan
02-03-2007, 05:57 PM
speed is nice.....for a punt returner, but to be a WR in the NFL you have to be aggresive and able to jump up and go after the ball, like Steve Smith with the panthers, like Chad Johnson with the Bengals, both are very aggresive, and Ted Ginn is not that guy!

I take it you've never watched Ginn play in a game then. You act like he's never caught a pass.

utahphinsfan
02-03-2007, 06:09 PM
nice post but i still want him .... speed is speed and hes only been a reciever for only two years so u cant really say much about him other then hes still developing his touch.

Given Martz's love of speed & Millen's track record (pun intended), I think Ginn is a lock to go @ #2. :evil:

HelloMotto
02-03-2007, 06:10 PM
speed is nice.....for a punt returner, but to be a WR in the NFL you have to be aggresive and able to jump up and go after the ball, like Steve Smith with the panthers, like Chad Johnson with the Bengals, both are very aggresive, and Ted Ginn is not that guy!


remember mark duper......i want speed again......

HelloMotto
02-03-2007, 06:13 PM
Also, Santana Moss is the 'Canes all time leading WIDE RECEIVER in Miami's history. He is a true WR, not a glamourized and speedy returner. Steve Smith played on a 4-7, terrible Utah football team with even worse QB's... yet STILL matched Ginn in college stats. Ginn benefited from having a Heismann trophy winner throw to him and #1 or #2 team in the nation. Even so, Moss took 5 years to have a season worthy of being a 1st rd pick. If you want to rebuild, draft Ginn... he might be worth it in 4 or 5 years. Until then, he is a returner. But I want a guy who will make the most signicant, immediate impact at a need position... not a luxury position. The Bears took Hester as a luxury pick, and we simply have too many other needs at more important positions.

yeah lets go find someone that runs a 6.5 forty so we can guarantee he will be a great receiver....

Geforce
02-03-2007, 06:21 PM
You misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted my entire point, which is... well... ignorant. :wink: First off, Warrick was the #3 pick overall, greatly in due part for his renowned, freaky SPEED. I found a number of stats showing his 40 time in the 4.3's. There are not only combine #'s, but also pro day #'s, personal workouts and the like. I generally used the site I referenced if their combine time was specified, but for guys as Warrick where there were no combine #'s specified on the site, I had to use secondary research from finding personal workouts or pro day workouts etc. Go examine Williamson's stats, profile, bio, etc... he virtually IS Ginn Jr in that regard. Williamson would've been a 2nd rounder at best, but his 4.3 SPEED vaulted him into the 1st round. If Ginn runs a 4.45, he's a high 2nd rounder. But he's a 4.3 guy just like Williamson and Warrick, so now he's a top 10 pick. Speed should not have as much weight toward a guys football skill, as it currently does. WR position involves much more than running fast. His scouting profile says he has average hands, with worldclass speed... sounds like olympic sprinter and former Chicago Bear Willie Gault. I want an all-around WR. Not a hyped returner. Show me some highlights of beautiful, over-the-shoulder catches, or diving grabs, or fingertip or shoelace grabs... not a short hitch turned into a big gain. Those big gains from short passes rarely work in the NFL. Again, EVERY one is fast in the NFL.

The comparison you used is what I was going on. As I said, 40 times is not the only thing teams rely on, atleast the ones that do their homework, when evaluating a player.
I remember Warrick's time during his pro day because it was big news around here. He ran a 4.55 and 4.56 that day and a lot of people were shocked that Cincinnati took him so high. He may have played faster in college but in the pros he couldn't get it done. Injuries also played a factor in his less than stellar career.
Troy Williamson did receive a 1st round grade because of his speed and Minnesota was desperate to replace Moss so they ignored his limited experience as a receiver and drafted him in the top 10.
Ted Ginn, Jr is also limited experience wise as a WR but that is where most of the comparisons with Williamson ends. Ginn has/had a 1st round grade before the season was much improved this year in his overall play at WR than last.
As I have said before, I'm not advocating the drafting of Ginn but wouldn't be opposed to it. I'm just questioning yours and anyone else's logic suggesting that he'll be no more than a kick returner based on his speed alone. Besides, the majority of rookie WRs struggle the 1st year or two.

Pocoloco
02-03-2007, 06:34 PM
I think the reason why some of us are so high on Ginn is that he has so much potential, not because he is the best technique receiver right now. There is no question he is raw, but the idea is that in 3-4 years he could be dominant. But there is no question that, once he gets the ball, he knows exactly what to do with it, which is that homerun quality you really look for in a #1 receiver.

Personally, I think Ginn could really make this offense click better just by being out there on the field. It would probably force Chambers back to the slot, where he has been more productive. He would command respect from the safeties, who couldn't inch up in anticipation of Ronnie Brown. Just sending the kid on fly routes constantly would open things up underneath.

jim1
02-03-2007, 06:45 PM
Wasn't interesting to me.

Wow, what a shocker.

jlfin
02-03-2007, 07:00 PM
So because he's fast, he sucks?

You miss the point of his post. The fact that he runs a fast 40 does not guarantee NFL success as others have implied. He is undersized and an unpolished WR.
His biggest plays come in special teams. That's all well and good, but certainly not worth a top 10 pick.
He reminds me of Rocket Ismael. Nice player, but not an elite one at his position.

miami234ever
02-03-2007, 07:21 PM
Cam and Mueller have mentioned that this offense needs more speed. I think there is a chance that they go after him. He's probably the fastest guy in the draft. I understand that just because he's fast doesn't mean anything, but Ohio State has had some nice WR's come out. Glenn and Galloway both were drafted top 10 and turned out fine. Also, Santonio Holmes was the slot last year in Pitt and got more yards than any WR on our team (a little over 800 yards.)

Crowder52
02-03-2007, 07:31 PM
So because he's fast, he sucks?

Do you realize how many God-awful posts are made in the Draft Forum everyday? I'm sure you do... Every day I see posts like the following:

"Brady Quinn is a bust I guarantee!"
"Draft Ginn or I'm no longer a Dolphins fan"
"Don't draft Trent Edwards, he's a Tedford QB OMG!" (he's not)

This guy actually takes facts and makes an coherent argument. He mentions numerous other factors besides 40 times. Leave your feelings about a particular player out of it (it seems you may be really high on Ginn).

It was like the guy the other day who compared Russell and Quinn's stats vs top 25 opponents. I'm not that high on Quinn personally, but I can appreciate someone who takes the time to make a competent, well-thought out post. It seems you can't.

dougfinsfan72
02-03-2007, 07:40 PM
Very Good post!

I still wouldn't mind us drafting Ginn or another WR, hopefully Ginn will be one of the burners who turn out to be an excellent wide receiver.

I do feel that the Dolphins lack playmakers. If we don't take a WR at #9 then we should select a playmaker at another position and take a WR in the second round. I consider playmakers to be RBs, WRs, CBs, Safeties, QBs, LBs, and DEs. If we select the best playmaker at #9 then I'll also be happy.

I still feel that we need to select a WR with either our 1st or 2nd round pick. With Booker's uncertain status, Chambers nonemergence, Hagan's current penchant for dropping passes, along with the fact that Welker may never get any better than what he is now (I love his competetiveness though) we need an immediate or near immediate influx of talent at the WR position.

The best scenario for us, if we can find a suitor is to trade down and pick up an extra 2nd round pick and then pick a WR with either our 1st round pick or our earlier 2nd round pick. The only OT I would consider drafting before the 3rd round is Thomas and Levi Brown.

I'm not sold on Quinn, maybe because he's from Notre Dame and I've been a USC fan since 1970, or maybe because he didn't do crap in two of the biggest games of his senior year. If he pass the COMBINE scrutinizations then I'll gladly accept him as our #9 pick, otherwise Brown, Landry, Nelson, Bowe, Ginn, Jarrett, or the top rated DE or LB with the #9. I don't see a CB worthy of being picked at #9.

I got the opportunity to watch highlights of Bowe and his route running and toughness is at or close to PRO-LEVEL.

jim1
02-03-2007, 07:45 PM
Do you realize how many God-awful posts are made in the Draft Forum everyday? I'm sure you do... Every day I see posts like the following:

"Brady Quinn is a bust I guarantee!"
"Draft Ginn or I'm no longer a Dolphins fan"
"Don't draft Trent Edwards, he's a Tedford QB OMG!" (he's not)

This guy actually takes facts and makes an coherent argument. He mentions numerous other factors besides 40 times. Leave your feelings about a particular player out of it (it seems you may be really high on Ginn).

It was like the guy the other day who compared Russell and Quinn's stats vs top 25 opponents. I'm not that high on Quinn personally, but I can appreciate someone who takes the time to make a competent, well-thought out post. It seems you can't.

Excellent point.

Elliott 1
02-03-2007, 07:51 PM
The no guarntee arguement is insulting to anyone with a brain. You can say that about any player in the draft. I like the posts about not getting any fast players on our team. I guess we are going to have avoid those speedsters like the plague.

Fineas
02-03-2007, 07:56 PM
TMNY99,

you need to change the paragraph at the bottom or your sig. he may be the least paid HC, but barry switzer for one made the playoffs his first three seasons, winning the SB in his second season (95'). sorry to call you on it but if you put EVER then you should be right about your info

Yeah, there have been a number of head coaches that made the playoffs 2 out of their first 3 years. Off the top of my head, in addition to Switzer, there's George Seifert, Don Shula, Marty Schottenheimer, Chan Gailey, John Madden, Bill Parcells, Mike Sherman, Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, etc.

TotoreMexico
02-03-2007, 08:08 PM
yeah lets go find someone that runs a 6.5 forty so we can guarantee he will be a great receiver....

His point is: just because a guy has speed doesn't mean he'll be a great WR

alienalias
02-03-2007, 08:16 PM
You miss the point of his post. The fact that he runs a fast 40 does not guarantee NFL success as others have implied. He is undersized and an unpolished WR.
His biggest plays come in special teams. That's all well and good, but certainly not worth a top 10 pick.
He reminds me of Rocket Ismael. Nice player, but not an elite one at his position.
Exactly. Or Heisman Trophy winner Desmond Howard for that matter...

alienalias
02-03-2007, 08:20 PM
Very Good post!

I still wouldn't mind us drafting Ginn or another WR, hopefully Ginn will be one of the burners who turn out to be an excellent wide receiver.

I do feel that the Dolphins lack playmakers. If we don't take a WR at #9 then we should select a playmaker at another position and take a WR in the second round. I consider playmakers to be RBs, WRs, CBs, Safeties, QBs, LBs, and DEs. If we select the best playmaker at #9 then I'll also be happy.

I still feel that we need to select a WR with either our 1st or 2nd round pick. With Booker's uncertain status, Chambers nonemergence, Hagan's current penchant for dropping passes, along with the fact that Welker may never get any better than what he is now (I love his competetiveness though) we need an immediate or near immediate influx of talent at the WR position.

The best scenario for us, if we can find a suitor is to trade down and pick up an extra 2nd round pick and then pick a WR with either our 1st round pick or our earlier 2nd round pick. The only OT I would consider drafting before the 3rd round is Thomas and Levi Brown.

I'm not sold on Quinn, maybe because he's from Notre Dame and I've been a USC fan since 1970, or maybe because he didn't do crap in two of the biggest games of his senior year. If he pass the COMBINE scrutinizations then I'll gladly accept him as our #9 pick, otherwise Brown, Landry, Nelson, Bowe, Ginn, Jarrett, or the top rated DE or LB with the #9. I don't see a CB worthy of being picked at #9.

I got the opportunity to watch highlights of Bowe and his route running and toughness is at or close to PRO-LEVEL.
YES! That is the type of scenario I'm actually hoping for. I really think we should trade down if one of the top guys drops to us.
I wouldn't mind Quinn, because you can consider he was the consensus #1 overall pick before the season began... now, he seems to be dropping a bit. Hmmmm, sounds like a guy who played QB at Pitt, with the initials DM. No, I'm not comparing the 2... but he could be the pre-2006 NCAA football player people foresaw, and not the post-2006 season people are down on.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 08:25 PM
The comparison you used is what I was going on. As I said, 40 times is not the only thing teams rely on, atleast the ones that do their homework, when evaluating a player.
I remember Warrick's time during his pro day because it was big news around here. He ran a 4.55 and 4.56 that day and a lot of people were shocked that Cincinnati took him so high. He may have played faster in college but in the pros he couldn't get it done. Injuries also played a factor in his less than stellar career.
Troy Williamson did receive a 1st round grade because of his speed and Minnesota was desperate to replace Moss so they ignored his limited experience as a receiver and drafted him in the top 10.
Ted Ginn, Jr is also limited experience wise as a WR but that is where most of the comparisons with Williamson ends. Ginn has/had a 1st round grade before the season was much improved this year in his overall play at WR than last.
As I have said before, I'm not advocating the drafting of Ginn but wouldn't be opposed to it. I'm just questioning yours and anyone else's logic suggesting that he'll be no more than a kick returner based on his speed alone. Besides, the majority of rookie WRs struggle the 1st year or two.
You are 100% right. Earlier I was on an internet scavenger hunt for info and research, and just now went back to double-check.... well, the article that referenced a personal work-out time in the 4.3's was actually Laveranues Coles and not Warrick as I'd posted, who ran a best of 4.48 on the same surface as Coles. Thank you for pointing that out, as I clearly made a mistake. Thus, you are correct in saying the comparison of Warrick to Ginn is not a very good one. The others I still stand by, but that one was wrong. Nice work!

umpalu
02-03-2007, 08:31 PM
Your entire post is based on NFL WR's 40 times. Your argument for not taking Ginn is because of his 40 time. So before you go shaking your head, know what you're talking about.

he does know what he is talking about. do you notice anyone on these boards saying draft ginn because of his route running ability? (hint for you NO) Do you see anyone on these boards saying draft ginn because of his hands or ability to adjust to the ball? (hint NO) Do you see anyone saying draft ginn because of his physical play? (UM NO). Ginn is speed, thats it at the moment. do your homework before you call someone out.

jason8er
02-03-2007, 08:33 PM
Why do you compare Ginn to Sinorice Moss? Why not compare him to some of the other smaller fast receivers like Santana Moss or Steve Smith? Or he might excel in the return game ala D. Hall who knows? There are only a few guys that I like at our position and Ginn is one of them because he's a receiver who stretches the field and has an impact in the return game.
How about Rae Carruth? Yikes!

alienalias
02-03-2007, 08:35 PM
How about Rae Carruth? Yikes!
Lol... yeah, that didn't turn out being the best 1st round pick, huh?

jason8er
02-03-2007, 08:46 PM
Lol... yeah, that didn't turn out being the best 1st round pick, huh?
He ran a 4.17 at Colorado. I remember really wanting us to pick him too. Thank god I'm not the GM. :goof:

PhinSoldia
02-03-2007, 09:42 PM
So because he's fast, he sucks?

My thoughts exactly

PhinSoldia
02-03-2007, 09:46 PM
His point is: just because a guy has speed doesn't mean he'll be a great WR

and it definately doesnt hurt his prospect either-hell at this point i would rather take a shot on a fast guy with huge upside(that has huge bust potential) than to go with another Derek Hagan in the 3rd-decent speed at best-below average hands-and probably wont crack the starting line up in canada....yeah i think I would go with Ginn- and i dont think that anybody is sold on Mr. Chambers right now

Lisle Phin Fan
02-03-2007, 09:52 PM
I wouldn't take Ginn that high

we can get a WR in the 2nd or 3rd round

40 speed is so overrated, I'll take the next Anquan Boldin anyday

NFL CB's will just jam the hell out of Ginn anyways

what was Colston's 40 time?

alienalias
02-03-2007, 10:06 PM
I wouldn't take Ginn that high

we can get a WR in the 2nd or 3rd round

40 speed is so overrated, I'll take the next Anquan Boldin anyday

NFL CB's will just jam the hell out of Ginn anyways

what was Colston's 40 time?
Colston ran a 4.5. Here's the link to his combine stats... just click on his name. You can also click on the arrows to see who was tops at each skill.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/nflcombinebypos.php?draftyear=2006&GenPos=WR&sortorder=LastName&order=ASC

alienalias
02-03-2007, 10:08 PM
and it definately doesnt hurt his prospect either-hell at this point i would rather take a shot on a fast guy with huge upside(that has huge bust potential) than to go with another Derek Hagan in the 3rd-decent speed at best-below average hands-and probably wont crack the starting line up in canada....yeah i think I would go with Ginn- and i dont think that anybody is sold on Mr. Chambers right now

What do you mean take a shot at a fast guy? You say no one is sold on Chambers right now... but he ran a 4.3 40! At best Ginn is another Chambers. Only Chambers has a better vertical leap, and probably better hands... ouch!

Lisle Phin Fan
02-03-2007, 10:18 PM
I like the LSU receiver much better

Fresh
02-03-2007, 10:22 PM
Those 40 times are ****ed up - Chad Johnson did NOT run a 4.57

I remember wanting him at #26 that year.....he ran in the 4.4's.

alienalias
02-03-2007, 11:08 PM
Those 40 times are ****ed up - Chad Johnson did NOT run a 4.57

I remember wanting him at #26 that year.....he ran in the 4.4's.

Yo, don't hate on me... hate on the website I used for info! They are the most comprehensive source for past draftees and combine #'s etc. Keep in mind I posted what was cited as combine #'s, if they were available... NOT personal workouts etc. If a guy chose not to workout at the combine, and instead did a personal workout for scouts, then I was forced to use that instead. Anyway, like I said don't argue with me... argue with these guys:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/nflcombinebypos.php?draftyear=2006&GenPos=WR&sortorder=cone&order=ASC
Click on the link above, then go to the year Chad Johnson was drafted, then go to WR's, and then click on his name. So YES, he DID run a 4.57 at the combine. Maybe he ran better in a personal workout, but he still ran just as I printed. Sorry... but that's why he wasn't drafted in the 1st. Hence, my point that speed is a little overrated... important, but similarly overrated.

Crowder52
02-03-2007, 11:47 PM
Those 40 times are ****ed up - Chad Johnson did NOT run a 4.57

I remember wanting him at #26 that year.....he ran in the 4.4's.

Chad Johnson absolutely did not run in the 4.4's. He had a poor time and significantly dropped his stock. 4.57 actually sounds faster than I remember him running it, but it could be right.

edit: here's a link from another site, I guess 4.57 is about right after all, Kiper had him at 5.54 and Clayton just says mid 4.5's.

http://espn.go.com/melkiper/s/2001/0307/1136944.html

http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1110727.html

Geforce
02-04-2007, 12:36 AM
Chad Johnson absolutely did not run in the 4.4's. He had a poor time and significantly dropped his stock. 4.57 actually sounds faster than I remember him running it, but it could be right.

edit: here's a link from another site, I guess 4.57 is about right after all, Kiper had him at 5.54 and Clayton just says mid 4.5's.

http://espn.go.com/melkiper/s/2001/0307/1136944.html

http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1110727.html (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1110727.html)

Johnson's time in the 40 at the Combine is the reason why so many players skip running there. His time of 4.57 dropped his stock but the Cincinnati WRs coach timed him four times before the draft and timed him at 4.36, 4.38, 4.42 and 4.43. So I'm sure Cincinnati were elated when he was around in the 2nd round.

PhinSoldia
02-04-2007, 01:05 AM
Johnson's time in the 40 at the Combine is the reason why so many players skip running there. His time of 4.57 dropped his stock but the Cincinnati WRs coach timed him four times before the draft and timed him at 4.36, 4.38, 4.42 and 4.43. So I'm sure Cincinnati were elated when he was around in the 2nd round.


i guess this is why the elite prospects dont participate at the combine

alienalias
02-04-2007, 01:11 AM
Johnson's time in the 40 at the Combine is the reason why so many players skip running there. His time of 4.57 dropped his stock but the Cincinnati WRs coach timed him four times before the draft and timed him at 4.36, 4.38, 4.42 and 4.43. So I'm sure Cincinnati were elated when he was around in the 2nd round.
Proving my point, isn't it ridiculous that Chad Johnson could've been a top 15 pick IF he'd had a 4.30 40 time? Yet dropped to the 2nd rd b/c he ran a slow time at the combine? This has been my point, is that there is too much accentuation on the 40 time. Whether his 40 time was realistically 4.3 or his combine 4.5, he is a true WR, first and foremost. The 40 time is usually not truly representative of football speed.

Lisle Phin Fan
02-04-2007, 02:21 AM
I heard this on NFL radio and it stuck with me(paraphrasing):

scouts are impressed with forty times, but when coaches get involved a WR coach will say "I don't need a 4.4 guy, I need a 4.5 guy who can stick his foot in the ground and run a sharp route"

I also have to ask, what percentage of the time does a receiver need to rely on reading defenses and running a good route as opposed to running a fast 40?

I love a YAC guy like Anquan Boldin, he loves to get open and then start hitting guys. now that is an NFL WR, not a 6' 180 pound guy part time WR who considered a move to defense

alienalias
02-04-2007, 02:30 AM
I heard this on NFL radio and it stuck with me(paraphrasing):

scouts are impressed with forty times, but when coaches get involved a WR coach will say "I don't need a 4.4 guy, I need a 4.5 guy who can stick his foot in the ground and run a sharp route"

I also have to ask, what percentage of the time does a receiver need to rely on reading defenses and running a good route as opposed to running a fast 40?

I love a YAC guy like Anquan Boldin, he loves to get open and then start hitting guys. now that is an NFL WR, not a 6' 180 pound guy part time WR who considered a move to defense
Man, excellent. 'Nuff said...

Fresh
02-04-2007, 02:43 AM
I wasn't talking about the combine; I was referring to Pro Day.

He ran in the 4.4's.

Crowder52
02-04-2007, 02:49 AM
I wasn't talking about the combine; I was referring to Pro Day.

He ran in the 4.4's.

Pro Day doesn't mean squat, that's hand timing. The electronic timing at the combine is what counts.

Lisle Phin Fan
02-04-2007, 02:50 AM
Man, excellent. 'Nuff said...

thanks

I heard it and it was a revelation, I thought scouts and coaches were on the same page.

I laugh even harder when I hear about a left tackle's 40 time

Geforce
02-04-2007, 11:35 AM
Pro Day doesn't mean squat, that's hand timing. The electronic timing at the combine is what counts.

Pro Day obviously means a lot to those involved, otherwise they wouldn't keep doing them. Schools like USC and Ohio State use electronic timing devices. The reason some players skip running at the Combine is because many of them feel it's a slow running surface.

Crowder52
02-04-2007, 11:58 AM
Pro Day obviously means a lot to those involved, otherwise they wouldn't keep doing them. Schools like USC and Ohio State use electronic timing devices. The reason some players skip running at the Combine is because many of them feel it's a slow running surface.

No you're right, I shoulda said 40 times at the pro day don't mean much beacause that was what I was referring to. Every year I just see such a discrepancy between combine 40 times and pro day 40 times. Also, the combine is the only place we get to see everyone on the same surface, whether it is slow or not doesn't matter as long as everyone is running in the same place.

Batman13
02-05-2007, 12:53 AM
No, I was saying the likelihood of his becoming as good of those guys is incredibly small. Ginn's speed is why everyone loves him. Watch his highlights, they are mostly punt and kick returns. You don't spend the #9 pick on a kick returner. Chamber is just as fast as Ginn with his 4.3 40 time. But clearly that speed doesn't always translate to becoming a Steve Smith or Marvin Harrison. We have greater needs. I'd like Ginn at maybe the bottom 1/3 of the 1st round... but not at the #9. WR position as it is, is an incredible risk in rd 1 (see previous links). Especially drafting an unpolished WR with average hands as Ginn, whose main positives are he is ridiculously fast and shifty... in the NFL that speed will not translate into as much of an asset. EVERYone is fast in the NFL.
LOL. Chris Chambers is not as fast as Ginn. No one in the NFL is as fast as Ginn. That, my friend, is the basis of his appeal. Yes, other speed players haver failed, but not one of them will be the fastest player in every game that he participates in, like Ted Ginn.

Crowder52
02-05-2007, 12:59 AM
LOL. Chris Chambers is not as fast as Ginn. No one in the NFL is as fast as Ginn. That, my friend, is the basis of his appeal. Yes, other speed players haver failed, but not one of them will be the fastest player in every game that he participates in, like Ted Ginn.

I actually heard Ted Ginn is faster than God too.

Stitches
02-05-2007, 10:18 AM
I actually heard Ted Ginn is faster than God too.

I bet like 4 years ago(or whenever Darrel Green was 40), he could have kept up with Ginn. And I would be willing to bet there are NFL players as fast as Ginn. Then again, God is probably pretty fast, and if Ginn can beat him...:shakeno:

Motion
02-05-2007, 10:21 AM
No you're right, I shoulda said 40 times at the pro day don't mean much beacause that was what I was referring to. Every year I just see such a discrepancy between combine 40 times and pro day 40 times. Also, the combine is the only place we get to see everyone on the same surface, whether it is slow or not doesn't matter as long as everyone is running in the same place.

Exactly why the combine should be mandatory.

IAFINFAN
02-05-2007, 11:15 AM
I would love Ginn to be a Dolphin. Do I think he is a great receiver, No. Personally don't think he was best WR on Ohio State. But he can fly. On special teams he is worth a pick on that alone. The guy just changes field position. Reallly shows up on big games. One miss and he is gone.

Welker did a good job running kicks back but he isn't in Ginn's league. Personally think Welker is a better receiver but it's been a long time since Miami has had a dangerous threat returning kicks and with our defense and forcing teams to punt Ginn would be a difference maker and a lot of fun to watch him in action. He will get better as a WR, but can't pass up that kind of speed and talent. If you haven't watched him during his career and base things on the Florida game where he got hurt than you've missed an amazing talent.

Stitches
02-05-2007, 04:31 PM
I would love Ginn to be a Dolphin. Do I think he is a great receiver, No. Personally don't think he was best WR on Ohio State. But he can fly. On special teams he is worth a pick on that alone. The guy just changes field position. Reallly shows up on big games. One miss and he is gone.

Welker did a good job running kicks back but he isn't in Ginn's league. Personally think Welker is a better receiver but it's been a long time since Miami has had a dangerous threat returning kicks and with our defense and forcing teams to punt Ginn would be a difference maker and a lot of fun to watch him in action. He will get better as a WR, but can't pass up that kind of speed and talent. If you haven't watched him during his career and base things on the Florida game where he got hurt than you've missed an amazing talent.

You can pass up that kind of talent at #9. You don't take a special teamer as a top ten pick. Most GMs wouldn't even suggest doing it in the 1st round, let alone 2nd. Ginn is worth like the 15th pick at best. He's not that good of a WR and it will be a couple years before his game will be refined enough for him to have a significant impact on a play by play basis.

IluvJuMiami
02-05-2007, 04:47 PM
Smart post. Very reasonable. Yet, I'm not looking for the next Jerry Rice in Ted Ginn Jr. I'm looking for the next Reggie Bush/Devin Hester- guys who touch the football a limited number of times but the majority of those times it's a game changing play.

I think Ginn Jr will be one of those player who averages a touchdown a game all by himself, whether it's a kick/punt return, reverse, screen, slant across the middle, or a simple go route. For a team that averaged 16 points a game and seemed allergic to the endzone, Ginn might be the playmaker this franchise needs.

Ofcourse, if Quinn falls to 9, it's automatic.

Stitches
02-05-2007, 04:52 PM
Smart post. Very reasonable. Yet, I'm not looking for the next Jerry Rice in Ted Ginn Jr. I'm looking for the next Reggie Bush/Devin Hester- guys who touch the football a limited number of times but the majority of those times it's a game changing play.

I think Ginn Jr will be one of those player who averages a touchdown a game all by himself, whether it's a kick/punt return, reverse, screen, slant across the middle, or a simple go route. For a team that averaged 16 points a game and seemed allergic to the endzone, Ginn might be the playmaker this franchise needs.

Ofcourse, if Quinn falls to 9, it's automatic.

I'd easily bet right now Ginn doesn't have anywhere close to 16 TDs next season. He'll be lucky to get 8.

Motion
02-05-2007, 04:57 PM
I'd easily bet right now Ginn doesn't have anywhere close to 16 TDs next season. He'll be lucky to get 8.

Pffft, he'll easily have 20. He has speed, what else do you need?

IluvJuMiami
02-05-2007, 04:59 PM
You can pass up that kind of talent at #9. You don't take a special teamer as a top ten pick. Most GMs wouldn't even suggest doing it in the 1st round, let alone 2nd. Ginn is worth like the 15th pick at best. He's not that good of a WR and it will be a couple years before his game will be refined enough for him to have a significant impact on a play by play basis.

Are you going to sit there and tell me that if a GM knew the type of damage Devin Hester was going to make this year as a "special teamer" they would have let him fall to the 2nd round?

Route running, technique, these things can be taught, practiced, refined. Speed, agility, you can't teach those things. You can't learn those things. You can't learn those freak moves Reggie Bush makes on hall of fame players like Brian Urlacher and you certainly can't practice the speed in which Bush ran away(not just out ran but literaly hit the freagin NAS button) from Urlacher after the move along with the 3 other Bear DBS who each ran 4.4s(I assume everyone knows the play I'm speaking of in the playoffs).

That's why I laugh at comparisons between Reggie Bush and Ronnie Brown because while Brown is a solid, maybe even great future RB, he couldn't hold Bush's jock strp with a forklift.

Motion
02-05-2007, 05:03 PM
Are you going to sit there and tell me that if a GM knew the type of damage Devin Hester was going to make this year as a "special teamer" they would have let him fall to the 2nd round?

Route running, technique, these things can be taught, practiced, refined. Speed, agility, you can't teach those things. You can't learn those things. You can't learn those freak moves Reggie Bush makes on hall of fame players like Brian Urlacher and you certainly can't practice the speed in which Bush ran away(not just out ran but literaly hit the freagin NAS button) from Urlacher after the move along with the 3 other Bear DBS who each ran 4.4s(I assume everyone knows the play I'm speaking of in the playoffs).

That's why I laugh at comparisons between Reggie Bush and Ronnie Brown because while Brown is a solid, maybe even great future RB, he couldn't hold Bush's jock strp with a forklift.

We weren't talking about Reggie Bush though, Ginn doesn't have half the explosiveness that Bush does. You don't spend a top 10 pick on a special teams guy.

IluvJuMiami
02-05-2007, 05:06 PM
We weren't talking about Reggie Bush though, Ginn doesn't have half the explosiveness that Bush does. You don't spend a top 10 pick on a special teams guy.

So knowing what you know now about Devin Hester, you don't take him with the 9th pick if he were in this years draft?

EDIT: By the way, it's just an opinion as yours, but I believe Ginn has as much explosiveness as Reggie Bush if not more. The moves he puts on defenders in that highlight reel are freakish, same as Bush's.

phins3454
02-05-2007, 05:12 PM
I take it you've never watched Ginn play in a game then. You act like he's never caught a pass.

Ted Ginn is overrated.... just face it... hes the next Peter Warrick/ Troy Williamson/ rocket Ismail

Motion
02-05-2007, 05:15 PM
So knowing what you know now about Devin Hester, you don't take him with the 9th pick if he were in this years draft?

EDIT: By the way, it's just an opinion as yours, but I believe Ginn has as much explosiveness as Reggie Bush if not more. The moves he puts on defenders in that highlight reel are freakish, same as Bush's.

No I would not take Hester at #9. The guy had some great returns but when your picking top 10 you need a guy that contributes on a regular basis consistently. The jury is still out on Hester, if he can do what he did this year consistently throughout his career then he will be a great player.

I never said it was anything but an opinion regarding Ginn/Bush. Not sure how much you've seen of Ginn but I don't see him having have the moves that Bush does.

IluvJuMiami
02-05-2007, 07:15 PM
No I would not take Hester at #9. The guy had some great returns but when your picking top 10 you need a guy that contributes on a regular basis consistently. The jury is still out on Hester, if he can do what he did this year consistently throughout his career then he will be a great player.

I never said it was anything but an opinion regarding Ginn/Bush. Not sure how much you've seen of Ginn but I don't see him having have the moves that Bush does.

Then, IMO, you'd be a horrible GM. Take a look at Hester's stats and reduce them by half and you still have more production out of him than Miami's entire offense. So if Hester only plays with half the consitancy he did last year he is still better than anyone in our squad.

If you don't see Ginn having the moves that Bush does you're either blind physically, which I'm going to rule out becuase you're using a computer, or blind mentally which means you've already made up your prejudice mind about Ginn Jr and won't budge because of your pride.

If you haven't seen the highlight reel posted in the draft poll thread, check it out. He puts a move on 5 defenders standing not more than 2 yards in front of him and leaves them all like, "Did he just do that?"

Motion
02-06-2007, 09:25 AM
Then, IMO, you'd be a horrible GM. Take a look at Hester's stats and reduce them by half and you still have more production out of him than Miami's entire offense. So if Hester only plays with half the consitancy he did last year he is still better than anyone in our squad.
I never claimed to be an NFL GM, I'm entitled to my opinions as much as you are yours. At least I don't back mine up with bogus facts. Hester is a stud returner, you don't spend a top 10 pick on a special teams guy.


If you don't see Ginn having the moves that Bush does you're either blind physically, which I'm going to rule out becuase you're using a computer, or blind mentally which means you've already made up your prejudice mind about Ginn Jr and won't budge because of your pride.

If you haven't seen the highlight reel posted in the draft poll thread, check it out. He puts a move on 5 defenders standing not more than 2 yards in front of him and leaves them all like, "Did he just do that?"
:lol: Gimme a break. Your reading way to much into this. I'm far from blind. Bush is a far more versatile and explosive player IMO. Not taking anything away from Ginn. He's just not worth the top 10 pick IMO. Get over it.

xDOLPHINSx
02-06-2007, 12:58 PM
I'd easily bet right now Ginn doesn't have anywhere close to 16 TDs next season. He'll be lucky to get 8.
And i would be very happy with 8, especially in a rookie campaign. :wink: This offense needs a playmaker, not just another booker or welker. And by that statement i mean just being able to make the catch but not get the YAC. Ginn's the type of player who stretches the field and makes things easier for the offense, whether its Ronnie running or crossing routes underneath. Speed is important, you cant really refute that. Thats why 40 times are held so high with PROFESSIONAL GM'S. Ginn is the prototypical boom/bust type player, but what we do know is that he can help out on ST's. We all know how important that was for the bears this season. People really underate a good ST's player and thats pretty sad imo. Consistently starting 10-20 yds down the field is a pretty big deal if u ask me. Between his return abilities and his WR skills that could potentially make him a star, i say he is worthy of the #9 pick. And i have Mel Kiper Jr. in my corner, a PROFESSIONAL. :D

IluvJuMiami
02-06-2007, 01:53 PM
I never claimed to be an NFL GM, I'm entitled to my opinions as much as you are yours. At least I don't back mine up with bogus facts. Hester is a stud returner, you don't spend a top 10 pick on a special teams guy.


:lol: Gimme a break. Your reading way to much into this. I'm far from blind. Bush is a far more versatile and explosive player IMO. Not taking anything away from Ginn. He's just not worth the top 10 pick IMO. Get over it.

Motion, you are bias when it comes to Ginn. It's painfully obvious. It's funny even. You're funny. You amuse me.

Any other argument holds water: The kid doesn't run routes well, his hands are questionable, etc. But that he's not explosive? Please, guy, you're transparent. I own champagne glasses harder to see through.

Motion
02-06-2007, 02:03 PM
Motion, you are bias when it comes to Ginn. It's painfully obvious. It's funny even. You're funny. You amuse me.

Any other argument holds water: The kid doesn't run routes well, his hands are questionable, etc. But that he's not explosive? Please, guy, you're transparent. I own champagne glasses harder to see through.


Save the comparisons. Again your taking what I said out of context, I said he's not AS explosive as Bush, not that he's not explosive. I have no bias towards the guy, just don't think he's worth the #9 pick. You truly are entertaining, one thread your preaching to people about their condescending tone and yet another thread you write the definition.

IluvJuMiami
02-06-2007, 02:24 PM
Save the comparisons. Again your taking what I said out of context, I said he's not AS explosive as Bush. Try reading.

I try but it get's exhausting, such bad material and all.

That's your opinion Motion which you are more than entitled to. You're wrong but you are entitled to that as well.

Your reasoning for Ginn not being as explosive as Bush is because Ginn doesn't touch the ball 20 times a game like Bush does. One has nothing to do with the other.

Agian, watch the highlight reel. It's in the draft forum and it's a poll thread between Jarrett and Ginn. Better yet, here: http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=182067 I've done the hard work for you. Watch and learn.

You know, I watched it agian and I've never seen Reggie Bush fake out, how many players, lets count them out loud together Motion. Are you watching the reel? Okay. When the time remaining on the reel reads 3:31 Ginn catches an out and jukes, together now, 3 guys right off the bat oh here comes the 4th, breaks that tackle, 5th missed lunge, number 6 is standing clueless in the top left of the screen and now Ginn's taking off to the right and here comes... numero 7, seven.

Seven guys on the left side of the field not 3 yards away from the sidelines where a group of cavemen could have derived a plan to force him out of bounds.

But maybe it's me. Maybe I'm bias. Or maybe that's feakin amazing to the rest of the population, just doesn't move your e-Motion.

Motion
02-06-2007, 02:34 PM
I try but it get's exhausting, such bad material and all.

That's your opinion Motion which you are more than entitled to. You're wrong but you are entitled to that as well.

Your reasoning for Ginn not being as explosive as Bush is because Ginn doesn't touch the ball 20 times a game like Bush does. One has nothing to do with the other.

Agian, watch the highlight reel. It's in the draft forum and it's a poll thread between Jarrett and Ginn. Better yet, here: http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=182067 I've done the hard work for you. Watch and learn.

You know, I watched it agian and I've never seen Reggie Bush fake out, how many players, lets count them out loud together Motion. Are you watching the reel? Okay. When the time remaining on the reel reads 3:31 Ginn catches an out and jukes, together now, 3 guys right off the bat oh here comes the 4th, breaks that tackle, 5th missed lunge, number 6 is standing clueless in the top left of the screen and now Ginn's taking off to the right and here comes... numero 7, seven.

Seven guys on the left side of the field not 3 yards away from the sidelines where a group of cavemen could have derived a plan to force him out of bounds.

But maybe it's me. Maybe I'm bias. Or maybe that's feakin amazing to the rest of the population, just doesn't move your e-Motion.

Thanks for the play by play. It is indeed impressive. However, as you yourself pointed out he doesn't get the touches that someone like Bush does, hence my issue with his value. No biggie, just my humble opinion. Nice play on words too BTW. :wink:

IluvJuMiami
02-06-2007, 02:46 PM
Thanks for the play by play. It is indeed impressive. However, as you yourself pointed out he doesn't get the touches that someone like Bush does, hence my issue with his value. No biggie, just my humble opinion. Nice play on words too BTW. :wink:

I try.

And I feel yah dude. I really do. I just think that Ginn has all those qualities our offense lacks. He's that big play ability we've been craving and that big play ability alone is enough to heavily consider the guy at 9.

I would love to trade up or down in this draft but you know how that goes, it's rare. I would rather be daring and take Ginn at 9 than keep playing it safe and take Brown.

Aren't you tired of safe Motion? Dave Wannstedt made me so sick and tired of safe I moved in to a bad neighborhood to remind me I was alive. No, wait... that has more to do with my bank account. Anyways, I hate safe. Even that other guy who bolted played it safe in the draft, always drafting SEC. I want to make some noise.

Motion
02-06-2007, 02:54 PM
I try.

And I feel yah dude. I really do. I just think that Ginn has all those qualities our offense lacks. He's that big play ability we've been craving and that big play ability alone is enough to heavily consider the guy at 9.

I would love to trade up or down in this draft but you know how that goes, it's rare. I would rather be daring and take Ginn at 9 than keep playing it safe and take Brown.

Aren't you tired of safe Motion? Dave Wannstedt made me so sick and tired of safe I moved in to a bad neighborhood to remind me I was alive. No, wait... that has more to do with my bank account. Anyways, I hate safe. Even that other guy who bolted played it safe in the draft, always drafting SEC. I want to make some noise.

No doubt, I couldn't agree more actually. I'm a Gator fan, Urban Meyer runs fake punts from his own 25 yard line. I love those ballsy moves. Hopefully the new staff takes a similar approach in personell and playcalling moves. :D

PhinstiGator
02-06-2007, 04:14 PM
The greatest WR of all time, Jerry Rice, ran a 4.6 40 yard dash. Our 1st round flop and pick in 1991, WR Randall "Thrill" Hill, ran a 4.2 40. ... :dolphins:
Thoughts?
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Firstly, I don't view Jerry Rice as being the greatest of all time.

The greatest Dolphins WR was a guy named Paul Warfield. He was a 6' 188 lb'er from Ohio State. He was drafted by Cleveland 11 spots into the first round...not even the first receiver off the board.

He only averaged 31 receptions per year while with the Dolphins. But, he was one of the most explosive players to wear a Dolphins uniform.

I haven't seen enough of Ginn Jr to know his negatives...but, I do know what natural charactistic he has...explosiveness. He is a game changer that has to be accounted for.

I can't figure out why Dolphins fans wouldn't want a player like that on our team.

Stitches
02-06-2007, 04:23 PM
Firstly, I don't view Jerry Rice as being the greatest of all time.

The greatest Dolphins WR was a guy named Paul Warfield. He was a 6' 188 lb'er from Ohio State. He was drafted by Cleveland 11 spots into the first round...not even the first receiver off the board.

He only averaged 31 receptions per year while with the Dolphins. But, he was one of the most explosive players to wear a Dolphins uniform.

I haven't seen enough of Ginn Jr to know his negatives...but, I do know what natural charactistic he has...explosiveness. He is a game changer that has to be accounted for.

I can't figure out why Dolphins fans wouldn't want a player like that on our team.

It's not that I wouldn't want him on my team, it's that I have a laundry list of players I would prefer over him.