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View Full Version : Spot-On Ginn Assessment



Lisle Phin Fan
02-15-2007, 03:15 AM
3. http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/02/down-1.gif Ted Ginn, Jr., WR, Ohio State: Though Ginn is arguably the best deep threat available in the 2007 draft, his lack of sure hands or great route-running is a huge concern for scouts. Those issues combined with a slight frame could drop him surprisingly low come April. Ginn is by far the most inconsistent producer of the draft's top wideouts, and his initial impact will likely be as a return specialist while some team figures out how best to use him in three-receiver sets.

from cbssportsline

we can get a real reciever in the second round

DonShula84
02-15-2007, 03:17 AM
I'm glad the love affair for this guy seems to be dying down a bit.

umpalu
02-15-2007, 05:34 AM
from cbssportsline

we can get a real reciever in the second round

welcome to what %75 of us have been saying for the last few months, minus the wr in the second round which i dont think i have read about yet.

Ohio Fanatic
02-15-2007, 07:10 AM
I'm glad the love affair for this guy seems to be dying down a bit.

this coming from the guy with man-love for Brady Quinn:D

The Confessor
02-15-2007, 07:48 AM
this coming from the guy with man-love for Brady Quinn:D

Perhaps he does, but I agree. Ginn is gonna be a nice 3rd round pick for somebody, but all this talk about taking him with the nine overall is absurd...

finfan54
02-15-2007, 08:30 AM
I would rather have Jarrett or Bowe or even Meachem maybe. Anthony Gonzalez was just as productive last year. I wouldnt mind having him either.

mbsinmisc
02-15-2007, 08:59 AM
If Ginn runs in the low 4.3's, which is likely, he will go in the top half of the first round. I think he has special skills. He will make an immediate impact on special teams, and as a wideout I think he will do just fine.

ChambersWI
02-15-2007, 09:09 AM
I'm glad the love affair for this guy seems to be dying down a bit.

you know as well as anybody that the love for this guy will never die down. Once more as soon as he scores his first TD, 7 threads are going to pop up saying "we should've Ginn, our FO is stupid"


If Ginn runs in the low 4.3's, which is likely, he will go in the top half of the first round. I think he has special skills. He will make an immediate impact on special teams, and as a wideout I think he will do just fine.

scouts are more worried about other things now than 40 times. He's not the best route runner, and he's got mediocre hands, he should go no higher than Jacksonville.

IluvJuMiami
02-15-2007, 09:30 AM
I hope you are all correct because if Ginn becomes a beast in the league for anyone other than the Dolphins I'm going to have to read stupid rebuttles such as "At the time, it was the right choice [stats]" like Culpepper over Brees.

And as we all know Culpepper was the right choice... at the time... still is to many...

With all do respect, <--- and I don't mean that in a condescending I'm about to disrespect but let me be polite about it sort of way, I'm only trying to stay real the Hardaway(pun intended) when I say your layman opinion, or mine for that matter, means nothing.

There is only what will happen and won't. Until then, it's all speculation.

And the reason the lot of you speculate in such little and loud manners is so in those rare moments you find yourselfs in the right you can come out and say "I told you so."

It would be nice for a change to see someone man up around here and type, "I was wrong." <--- That, my friends, is about as random as an open gay athlete in this forum and as equally avoided.

So with my little and loud speculation, let me entail that I believe that Ted Ginn Jr is going to be a superstar in this league, that I believe all of you are wrong, and since I am one of the few around here who is quick to admit when he has stuck his foot in his mouth, I will make it my personal mission to never let you forget that I told you so.

LJK825
02-15-2007, 09:51 AM
I couldnt agree more with the initial post. That has been my personal opinion on Ginn. What if we pass on him and draft another player?? Then we will have to live with the pick whether its a QB, S, OL, or whatever. At the 9 spot, we have an opportunity to draft many different players or types of players. It would be worse if we had the 2 pick and drafted an expected player that becomes the biggest bust. If we dont take Ginn, no one is going to say 5 years from now, "we should've gotten Ginn". If this were the case, we should have drafted every player that was picked after ours in the 1st round, every year. Its gambling in a sense and its inherent that we would feel some remorse after losing out. I'm sure everyone that wanted Ryan Leaf regrets it and everyone that said not to draft him is relieved. McNabb getting booed at the draft to becoming a great QB. This IS what makes the draft exciting. This IS why there is pizza delivery and 2 full days of coverage each April. The best thing related to the NFL during the offseason (unlike the Probowl).

I dont regret for one second the move to get Culpepper. I dont think anyone could have really known how he would perform. Who is to say Brees will have that great of a season next year? He probably will have a good year, but guaranteed, there will be other QBs that come out to play next season.

Ginn is not the only answer at WR and regardless of how he does in the future, its nothing to dwell on. How many players such as Farve were drafted by other teams than where they became stars? How many were drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds?

Why cant it be April already???!!

Boomer
02-15-2007, 09:51 AM
Not sure where the hatred for Ginn comes from to be honest. He offers this team and specifically this offense something it lacks - an x-factor. It's the Reggie Bush effect......you need to know exactly where he is on every given down. He's the perfect disguise for whatever else you run with the offense. Plus he affords you the speed to run reverses, flanker screens and means with him at flanker, you can put Chambers in the slot and create further match-up issues.

Couple that with the huge ST impact - this kid is a better return man than Devin Hester and is markedly quicker. He'd be a hell of a pick for Miami and don't let anyone tell you differently. Whilst Bowe and Meacham have Chad Johnson typv ability in terms of what they bring to a team, the multi-dimensional aspect of Ginn can't be overshadowed.

And as for Gonzalez, you only had to look at the BCS Title game to see how little impact he provides when Ginn isn't there.

IluvJuMiami
02-15-2007, 10:11 AM
Not sure where the hatred for Ginn comes from to be honest. He offers this team and specifically this offense something it lacks - an x-factor. It's the Reggie Bush effect......you need to know exactly where he is on every given down. He's the perfect disguise for whatever else you run with the offense. Plus he affords you the speed to run reverses, flanker screens and means with him at flanker, you can put Chambers in the slot and create further match-up issues.

Couple that with the huge ST impact - this kid is a better return man than Devin Hester and is markedly quicker. He'd be a hell of a pick for Miami and don't let anyone tell you differently. Whilst Bowe and Meacham have Chad Johnson typv ability in terms of what they bring to a team, the multi-dimensional aspect of Ginn can't be overshadowed.

And as for Gonzalez, you only had to look at the BCS Title game to see how little impact he provides when Ginn isn't there.

As much as I would love to believe that I have real ability to spot talent, to be worthy of scout material as it applies to the NFL, I know I'm just another regular fan with a flawed opinion.

But there are some qualities in football that don't need expert eyes to be detected. Boomer refers to it above as "the Reggie Bush factor."

When I watch tape on Ted Ginn Jr, two words come to mind "Reggie, Bush." Ginn makes moves on the field that I have only seen two players in my lifetime make, Reggie Bush and Barry Sanders.

I don't need anything else but my own two eyes and a little common sense to tell me that this guy is going to do spectacular things in this league and as Boomer alludes to above, will garner special attention from defenses that will come in with one simple philosophy: "Don't let Ted Ginn Jr beat us."

Let me tell you, if you can get a team thinking like that, you're one smart OC away from a dominating gameplan.

Barry20
02-15-2007, 10:17 AM
As much as I would love to believe that I have real ability to spot talent, to be worthy of scout material as it applies to the NFL, I know I'm just another regular fan with a flawed opinion.

But there are some qualities in football that don't need expert eyes to be detected. Boomer refers to it above as "the Reggie Bush factor."

When I watch tape on Ted Ginn Jr, two words come to mind "Reggie, Bush." Ginn makes moves on the field that I have only seen two players in my lifetime make, Reggie Bush and Barry Sanders.

I don't need anything else but my own two eyes and a little common sense to tell me that this guy is going to do spectacular things in this league and as Boomer alludes to above, will garner special attention from defenses that will come in with one simple philosophy, "Don't let Ted Ginn Jr beat us."

Let me tell you, if you can get a team thinking like that, you're one smart OC away from a dominating gameplan.


Some other team will get him (probably Jets, Bills or Pats)...he will become a star and we will be kicking ourselves.

ChambersWI
02-15-2007, 10:44 AM
Not sure where the hatred for Ginn comes from to be honest. He offers this team and specifically this offense something it lacks - an x-factor. It's the Reggie Bush effect......you need to know exactly where he is on every given down. He's the perfect disguise for whatever else you run with the offense. Plus he affords you the speed to run reverses, flanker screens and means with him at flanker, you can put Chambers in the slot and create further match-up issues.

Couple that with the huge ST impact - this kid is a better return man than Devin Hester and is markedly quicker. He'd be a hell of a pick for Miami and don't let anyone tell you differently. Whilst Bowe and Meacham have Chad Johnson typv ability in terms of what they bring to a team, the multi-dimensional aspect of Ginn can't be overshadowed.

And as for Gonzalez, you only had to look at the BCS Title game to see how little impact he provides when Ginn isn't there.

sorry Boomer, I agree with you most of the time, but not on Ginn

saves
02-15-2007, 10:44 AM
Perhaps he does, but I agree. Ginn is gonna be a nice 3rd round pick for somebody, but all this talk about taking him with the nine overall is absurd...
100 v-bucks he is not a 3rd round pick??:D

Elliott 1
02-15-2007, 10:47 AM
What if he runs a ridiculous 40 at the combine. Like 4.2 something.

Vegas dolfan
02-15-2007, 11:02 AM
I agree on Ginn, that he is a bush type of player that can change a game. He is what we need for sure. I have been saying this for a long time now. I hope cam goes after Ginn so he can have a LT type of player where the defense has to worry where he is every play.

dolpns13
02-15-2007, 11:31 AM
[quote=ChambersWI;1061803929]you know as well as anybody that the love for this guy will never die down. Once more as soon as he scores his first TD, 7 threads are going to pop up saying "we should've Ginn, our FO is stupid"quote]

Couldnt have been more right...The name of this thread should have been spot on "your Quote"

JBinSD
02-15-2007, 11:33 AM
I hope you are all correct because if Ginn becomes a beast in the league for anyone other than the Dolphins I'm going to have to read stupid rebuttles such as "At the time, it was the right choice [stats]" like Culpepper over Brees.

And as we all know Culpepper was the right choice... at the time... still is to many...

With all do respect, <--- and I don't mean that in a condescending I'm about to disrespect but let me be polite about it sort of way, I'm only trying to stay real the Hardaway(pun intended) when I say your layman opinion, or mine for that matter, means nothing.

There is only what will happen and won't. Until then, it's all speculation.

And the reason the lot of you speculate in such little and loud manners is so in those rare moments you find yourselfs in the right you can come out and say "I told you so."

It would be nice for a change to see someone man up around here and type, "I was wrong." <--- That, my friends, is about as random as an open gay athlete in this forum and as equally avoided.

So with my little and loud speculation, let me entail that I believe that Ted Ginn Jr is going to be a superstar in this league, that I believe all of you are wrong, and since I am one of the few around here who is quick to admit when he has stuck his foot in his mouth, I will make it my personal mission to never let you forget that I told you so.

<--- Openly gay athlete.

Boomer
02-15-2007, 11:33 AM
sorry Boomer, I agree with you most of the time, but not on Ginn

Fair enough mate. It'd be boring of everyone agreed. Suffice to say that whilst you might not agree with my opinion on the player, you have to agree with the basis that his mere presence makes this team significantly better.

Boomer
02-15-2007, 11:35 AM
What if he runs a ridiculous 40 at the combine. Like 4.2 something.

He's not running at the Combine. He's going to run probably at the OSU Pro Day 10 days later, or at a specially arranged workout, depending on the status of his foot. I'd be surprised if he ran anything higher than 4.30.

ChambersWI
02-15-2007, 11:41 AM
Fair enough mate. It'd be boring of everyone agreed. Suffice to say that whilst you might not agree with my opinion on the player, you have to agree with the basis that his mere presence makes this team significantly better.

on ST yes, but he's too unpolished to be anything but a deep threat right now. We can get a speedy WR in any round of the draft, and if we're picking at 9, I don't want the pick's best attribut being ST. As I've said, if we can trade back into the mid teens, I wouldn't be totaly against Ginn. But in the top 10 you need a player tha can come in and start from day (unless he's a QB)

IluvJuMiami
02-15-2007, 11:47 AM
on ST yes, but he's too unpolished to be anything but a deep threat right now. We can get a speedy WR in any round of the draft, and if we're picking at 9, I don't want the pick's best attribut being ST. As I've said, if we can trade back into the mid teens, I wouldn't be totaly against Ginn. But in the top 10 you need a player tha can come in and start from day one(unless he's a QB)

That's pretty much true of the entire first round no matter what position you're picking.

Boomer
02-15-2007, 11:51 AM
on ST yes, but he's too unpolished to be anything but a deep threat right now.

Nonsense. Absolutely he needs route work and hands work, but watch the tape and see how he works the middle of the field, behind the LB and in front of the safety.

miamiron
02-15-2007, 11:56 AM
I still would rather have Johnnie Lee Higgins in the 3rd or even 4th
We will see how close his 40 time is to Ginn real soon and his college
productivity was much better than Higgins.That free's up #1 to go OL or QB
and #2 to get a very good WR(Meachem,Gonzalez,Rice)or a Josh Wilson or Ryan Kalil...

I would be a happy fan if we picked
Levi at #9
Kalil #39
Higgins #72
I would also pick up in the second day either Aaron Fairooz 6'6 215 WR Cent Arkansas
47 games...186 receptions...2797 yrds...26 tds
or
Laurent Robinson 6'2'' 195 wr ILL State
43 games...192 receptions...3007 yrds...29tds both could be awesome sleeper picks...but I would love to have a 6'6" wide receiver

Bjorn
02-15-2007, 11:57 AM
Nonsense. Absolutely he needs route work and hands work, but watch the tape and see how he works the middle of the field, behind the LB and in front of the safety.
Boom, off the top of your head do you remember what Reggie Bush ran his 40 in. Although I agree that Ginn has the speed to be an x factor, I think he has enough problems that won't make him an X-factor. The reason Reggie Bush is so good is because of his hands. The only thing I can see Ginn truely being effective at is ST, he would be good at reverses, but teams would be able to gameplan for that. If he can develop his hands I think he could be a weapon, but at this point in terms of what he has to offer I just wouldn't spend a 1st on him. I would definately use our second on him though. Hands can be developed, but I think if you're a first round pick you have to have the full package.

Boomer
02-15-2007, 12:07 PM
I think Bush ran a 4.38

Mr772
02-15-2007, 12:35 PM
I still would rather have Johnnie Lee Higgins in the 3rd or even 4th
We will see how close his 40 time is to Ginn real soon and his college
productivity was much better than Higgins.That free's up #1 to go OL or QB
and #2 to get a very good WR(Meachem,Gonzalez,Rice)or a Josh Wilson or Ryan Kalil...

I would be a happy fan if we picked
Levi at #9
Kalil #39
Higgins #72
I would also pick up in the second day either Aaron Fairooz 6'6 215 WR Cent Arkansas
47 games...186 receptions...2797 yrds...26 tds
or
Laurent Robinson 6'2'' 195 wr ILL State
43 games...192 receptions...3007 yrds...29tds both could be awesome sleeper picks...but I would love to have a 6'6" wide receiver

I like Higgins as well as a later pick with similar skills as Ginn (but he is bigger and has better hands). If Higgins had been on a high profile team he would be getting the type of hype that Ginn is getting. Right now Ginn is a one trick pony not worthy of a first round pick. reminds me of all the other track guys that did not do much in the nfl where everyone is fast. The guy has Daunte Hall written all over him.

MarksBro27
02-15-2007, 12:39 PM
I just watched the Ginn highlight clips over at Youtube and, well... I was rather blown away to say the least. I can see the comparisons to players like Bush and Sanders in that he has that special, once in a generation (although he would make it two with Bush) gamebreaking ability that must be very enticing for any coach/GM, and indeed fans. What worries me though is that with the 9th pick, a pretty damned high pick I think we'll all agree, is that he's not as accomplished at his primary position as you might like specifically at the two primarily important skill sub-sets of a receiver... catching the ball and running precise routes. Could he be a danger to the team that does draft him of being an offensively sparse special teams ace, someone like Raghib Ismail? Sure, the Rocket worked out as a productive receiver eventually, but it took him a while and he wasn't one for long. Yes, my mind is filled with all sorts of notions of seeing such a dynamic player cathing passes, running reverses and returning kicks to score from everywhere on the field - how sweet that would look from someone in a Miami uniform... but if we spent the 9th overall pick on Devin Hester Mk II, I won't be best pleased...

As always though, I'll leave it to the experts with all the info to decide, especially as so far, they have given me no reason to question their judgement...

djphinfan
02-15-2007, 02:26 PM
I hope you are all correct because if Ginn becomes a beast in the league for anyone other than the Dolphins I'm going to have to read stupid rebuttles such as "At the time, it was the right choice [stats]" like Culpepper over Brees.

And as we all know Culpepper was the right choice... at the time... still is to many...

With all do respect, <--- and I don't mean that in a condescending I'm about to disrespect but let me be polite about it sort of way, I'm only trying to stay real the Hardaway(pun intended) when I say your layman opinion, or mine for that matter, means nothing.

There is only what will happen and won't. Until then, it's all speculation.

And the reason the lot of you speculate in such little and loud manners is so in those rare moments you find yourselfs in the right you can come out and say "I told you so."

It would be nice for a change to see someone man up around here and type, "I was wrong." <--- That, my friends, is about as random as an open gay athlete in this forum and as equally avoided.

So with my little and loud speculation, let me entail that I believe that Ted Ginn Jr is going to be a superstar in this league, that I believe all of you are wrong, and since I am one of the few around here who is quick to admit when he has stuck his foot in his mouth, I will make it my personal mission to never let you forget that I told you so.tHE CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS STRIKES, and strikes hard by the way taking out everyone on this thread,,i agree and have been lobbying for ginn in all my posts for months.

Ginn brings so much value to this team on so many levels,i'am not going to even go over it again,,HIS SKILL SET FITS PERFECTLY WITH THIS TEAM.

Hey man,how do you like this name for your new nick name,,The Assasain.

I too would love to create some sort of research tool where we could go back and call out certain people who made brash,ignorant statements that had negative tones,for example"uhhh duhhhhh daunte no good no moss or ###k daunte or just some way to call people out for them being on the record.including myself when it comes to me being on the record.

Maybe it would make some people think and to articulate their opinions with better reasoning and less hurtful negativity.

endorPHINS72
02-15-2007, 03:32 PM
100 v-bucks he is not a 3rd round pick??:D

Neither were Yatil Green or Jacquez Green. Remember the things that were said about Yatil? The U of M coaches talked about the Florida State game and how they looked like "geniuses" by getting him the ball any way possible because he could change the complexion of a game. I have to question the durability of a 180 lbs. receiver who gets hurt during an endzone celebration.

Phantom
02-15-2007, 03:35 PM
Thinking a guy is going to be waiting for you in the 3rd or 4th round is rediculas........Deep threat.... What is that? Haven't seen one of those around here in quite some time.......

IluvJuMiami
02-16-2007, 11:08 AM
tHE CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS STRIKES, and strikes hard by the way taking out everyone on this thread,,i agree and have been lobbying for ginn in all my posts for months.

Ginn brings so much value to this team on so many levels,i'am not going to even go over it again,,HIS SKILL SET FITS PERFECTLY WITH THIS TEAM.

Hey man,how do you like this name for your new nick name,,The Assasain.

I too would love to create some sort of research tool where we could go back and call out certain people who made brash,ignorant statements that had negative tones,for example"uhhh duhhhhh daunte no good no moss or ###k daunte or just some way to call people out for them being on the record.including myself when it comes to me being on the record.

Maybe it would make some people think and to articulate their opinions with better reasoning and less hurtful negativity.

:lol: I like it:ninja:

Oboy
02-16-2007, 11:50 AM
Wow so much differing of opinions. I do think this will be a debate well through the draft...

First of all, let me state I would rather draft Brown to help our oline. However, I would not be upset with Ginn. There are quite a few picks that would make me happy. I think with wr being relatively deep in this draft and the number of holes on this team, I would rather get wr in the 2nd or 3rd...

However, the team needs to take BPA. Granted at our position there will probably be quite a few players that grade out at the same level and that is when I would prefer Quinn, Brown, or even Ginn.

Sorry, but anyone that thinks Ginn would not make any impact in his rookie season did not watch Hester return any kicks for Chicago. At the very LEAST he would give us good field position is most games. Tie in a few reverses or quick slants that he has the speed to take all the way... I don't doubt his impact.

Geforce
02-16-2007, 12:18 PM
Neither were Yatil Green or Jacquez Green. Remember the things that were said about Yatil? The U of M coaches talked about the Florida State game and how they looked like "geniuses" by getting him the ball any way possible because he could change the complexion of a game. I have to question the durability of a 180 lbs. receiver who gets hurt during an endzone celebration.
180 or 220 it doesn't matter when someone pins your ankle underneath them trying to pull you down.

Geforce
02-16-2007, 12:25 PM
Nonsense. Absolutely he needs route work and hands work, but watch the tape and see how he works the middle of the field, behind the LB and in front of the safety.

Ginn works the middle of the field? That just dispels most of the untruths about him. The fact that his YPC was less than it was the previous two years shows that he is more than just a deep threat.

Geforce
02-16-2007, 12:29 PM
I think Bush ran a 4.38
This is nitpicking but it was between 4.33 and 4.37 electronically. 4.33 and 4.41 hand timed.

uga3406
02-16-2007, 12:50 PM
Not sure where the hatred for Ginn comes from to be honest. He offers this team and specifically this offense something it lacks - an x-factor. It's the Reggie Bush effect......you need to know exactly where he is on every given down. He's the perfect disguise for whatever else you run with the offense. Plus he affords you the speed to run reverses, flanker screens and means with him at flanker, you can put Chambers in the slot and create further match-up issues.

Couple that with the huge ST impact - this kid is a better return man than Devin Hester and is markedly quicker. He'd be a hell of a pick for Miami and don't let anyone tell you differently. Whilst Bowe and Meacham have Chad Johnson typv ability in terms of what they bring to a team, the multi-dimensional aspect of Ginn can't be overshadowed.

And as for Gonzalez, you only had to look at the BCS Title game to see how little impact he provides when Ginn isn't there.


Finally some one i totally agree with.Last year i mentioned a few times that Santonio Holmes should of been our 1st pick overall and was shoot down quite a few times.Maybe Ginn is a reach at 9 but this team has no playmakers at all. This is not 1 wr on this club that catch the ball and take it 65 yards for the td and god bless wes he plays with so much heart and passion for the game but having ginn back there would be great.This team needs to add some fire power to this club and wr corps.Did any 1 see what holmes did the last game of the year vs the bengals, he finished there season for them but catching a slant pass and taking it 65 yards for the score.Im not sure why there is hate for him and why every 1 is so protective of booker and welker when ginn would be a major upgrade over those to.When was the last time any of them caught a pass 80 plus yards and toke it to the house,With ginn everytime he catches the ball he can accomplish that.

Boomer
02-16-2007, 01:06 PM
Ginn works the middle of the field? That just dispels most of the untruths about him. The fact that his YPC was less than it was the previous two years shows that he is more than just a deep threat.


Anyone who's seen Ginn play more than just the highlights on Sportscentre will know that one of his favourite plays is the deep in, behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties.

CANDolphan
02-16-2007, 02:04 PM
Im getting a bit tired of the Ted Ginn, Jr. = Devin Hester analogies already.

Ted Ginn wasnt even the best punt returner in D-1 football this season.. but hes going to basically take over the NFL? Give me a break.. Hester is a rare talent.. he really is.

I think we should go after Stallworth for our " Deep Threat " and then pickup a pure special teamer with our 3rd/4th round pick.. Miami DOES need a kick returner that will make other teams nervous, but not at the cost of our first round pick

jim1
02-16-2007, 02:08 PM
Anyone who's seen Ginn play more than just the highlights on Sportscentre will know that one of his favourite plays is the deep in, behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties.

How would you rate the top 5 WR's, in order? I'm still curious as to your specific assessment of Sidney Rice. Also, what about Brady Quinn?

Boomer
02-16-2007, 03:28 PM
Im getting a bit tired of the Ted Ginn, Jr. = Devin Hester analogies already.

Ted Ginn wasnt even the best punt returner in D-1 football this season.. but hes going to basically take over the NFL? Give me a break.. Hester is a rare talent.. he really is.

I think we should go after Stallworth for our " Deep Threat " and then pickup a pure special teamer with our 3rd/4th round pick.. Miami DOES need a kick returner that will make other teams nervous, but not at the cost of our first round pick


Hester is indeed a rare breed. But Ginn is a better return man.

Boomer
02-16-2007, 03:35 PM
How would you rate the top 5 WR's, in order? I'm still curious as to your specific assessment of Sidney Rice. Also, what about Brady Quinn?

1. Johnson
2. Ginn
3. Bowe
4. Meacham *
5. Rice.

* Meacham has the ability to move to 2 easily. He's one of the players I'm most keen on seeing at the Combine and at the Vols pro day.

I like Rice, I just want him to be more consistent. But when I've seen him, I've been impressed. Against Tennessee for example, he runs a route near the goaline, stops, the double coverage attacks the ball, except it's a fake, a perfectly executed body fake that leaves him wide open in thv back of the endzone in the space vacated by the corner and the safety. He also played Chris Houston, my 2nd rated CB better than anyone including Jarrett, Bowe and Meacham.

As for Quinn, I'm a huge fan. I love his mentality, his work ethic, his poise. I love how he moves the pocket, how athletic he is, how he works the middle of the field. Watch him work the 15-30 yard area of the centrefield and see how accurate he is, how outstanding his touch is. I think his arm is plenty good enough and he is clearly a perfect fit for the Cameron offense. All this stuff about not winning the big game is nonsense. He's a very fine prospect.

jim1
02-16-2007, 03:51 PM
1. Johnson
2. Ginn
3. Bowe
4. Meacham *
5. Rice.

* Meacham has the ability to move to 2 easily. He's one of the players I'm most keen on seeing at the Combine and at the Vols pro day.

I like Rice, I just want him to be more consistent. But when I've seen him, I've been impressed. Against Tennessee for example, he runs a route near the goaline, stops, the double coverage attacks the ball, except it's a fake, a perfectly executed body fake that leaves him wide open in thv back of the endzone in the space vacated by the corner and the safety. He also played Chris Houston, my 2nd rated CB better than anyone including Jarrett, Bowe and Meacham.

As for Quinn, I'm a huge fan. I love his mentality, his work ethic, his poise. I love how he moves the pocket, how athletic he is, how he works the middle of the field. Watch him work the 15-30 yard area of the centrefield and see how accurate he is, how outstanding his touch is. I think his arm is plenty good enough and he is clearly a perfect fit for the Cameron offense. All this stuff about not winning the big game is nonsense. He's a very fine prospect.


Thanks, great info.

Also, I noticed the omission of Dwayne Jarrett. Is it safe to assume that you think that drafting Jarrett at #9, as many have predicted, would be a huge mistake? Is it purely a speed issue?

PhinsRock
02-16-2007, 05:02 PM
from cbssportsline

we can get a real reciever in the second round

Amen! No Ginn for us please!

jim1
02-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Amen! No Ginn for us please!

I don't know, he might make a heck of a weapon at WR and on ST. Lord knows we need the spark. NFL Draft Countdown has Sidney Rice available at our second pick- I would hope that we would at least seriously consider taking him there.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/

Boomer
02-16-2007, 06:13 PM
Thanks, great info.

Also, I noticed the omission of Dwayne Jarrett. Is it safe to assume that you think that drafting Jarrett at #9, as many have predicted, would be a huge mistake? Is it purely a speed issue?


I have a lot of concerns about Jarrett. First off, every time I watched USC play, Steve Smith was the better player. Corners, as is their wont in the PAC 10 tended to give him too much seperation and he'd make the catch in front of the corner and then the DB would be out of his back pedal as Jarrett was at full speed. I think in man coverage he fails to create enough seperation and whilst he uses his size well, I just think that the 5 I mentioned are better.

Of course, now he'll have a Hall of Fame career.........

Boomer
02-16-2007, 06:14 PM
If Rice was available at 39, you'd have to think we'd be all over that like the proverbial cheap suit, but as we stand today, I think he'll be gone.

PhinstiGator
02-16-2007, 06:31 PM
......you need to know exactly where he is on every given down. He's the perfect disguise for whatever else you run with the offense. Plus he affords you the speed to run reverses, flanker screens and means with him at flanker, you can put Chambers in the slot and create further match-up issues...

The Ginn effect could be a powerful one on our offense. He is the most EXPLOSIVE player that I have seen in a long time. He certainly would create match-up problems for any defense.

I'd be interested in learning more about his intangables and character. You have any info?

Whoever we draft has to fit in the pre-ordained mandate from the owner to not hold-out.

jim1
02-16-2007, 07:13 PM
The Ginn effect could be a powerful one on our offense. He is the most EXPLOSIVE player that I have seen in a long time. He certainly would create match-up problems for any defense.

I'd be interested in learning more about his intangables and character. You have any info?

Whoever we draft has to fit in the pre-ordained mandate from the owner to not hold-out.

I just don't understand this. Huizenga got on the soap box about this last year regarding Jason Allen. After vowing it wouldn't become Ronnie Brown situation part deux, it did just that. After wiping the egg off of his face, Huizenga painted himself into a corner and put his reputation/word on the line by drawing a line in the sand: zero tolerance, no hold outs, not even one day, will be tolerated.

So now what? What if we land Brady Quinn and there's an issue of wether he really should have been picked 1-4 versus 9? Shades of Matt Leinert last year. It would seem, in that situation, that all Huizenga could really do is suck it up and pay the man. If there's a hold out and he subsequently signs the guy, he's lost credibility and looks somewhat like a fool. If he keeps his word during that hypothetical situation and cuts him loose in the name of principle and making a stand, all hell will break loose.

CANDolphan
02-17-2007, 06:15 AM
Hester is indeed a rare breed. But Ginn is a better return man.

? In what sense?

Hester is the best returner in football. Period. He has the best stats in the NFL, while Ted Ginn didn't even have the best return stats in Division 1 football..

I mean, I'm sorry, but Hester has sideline awarness that is just absolutely uncanny... I'm shocked that you can honestly make such a claim with a straight face and actually expect it to be taken seriously!

Boomer
02-17-2007, 08:04 AM
? In what sense?

Hester is the best returner in football. Period. He has the best stats in the NFL, while Ted Ginn didn't even have the best return stats in Division 1 football..

I mean, I'm sorry, but Hester has sideline awarness that is just absolutely uncanny... I'm shocked that you can honestly make such a claim with a straight face and actually expect it to be taken seriously!


In the sense that Ginn led the nation as a punt returner, as a kick returner and that he's scored more touchdowns as a collegian. You simply can't use Hester's NFL ability as a rod to beat Ginn with because Teddy hasn't played at that level yet.

Hester has two less returns over the same period of time, Hester never led the nation as a returner at Miami, in fact the highest he attained was 5th. Ginn, as I said, led the nation in both categories.

Ginn's highest statistical return average as a kick returner is 29.6. Hester's is 28.7. Ginn's highest statistical return average as a punt returner is 25.6. Hester's highest statistical return average as a punt returner is 17.6.

So suspend your shock, re-align your face, look at the facts and then sit down.

The Confessor
02-17-2007, 10:44 AM
In the sense that Ginn led the nation as a punt returner, as a kick returner and that he's scored more touchdowns as a collegian. You simply can't use Hester's NFL ability as a rod to beat Ginn with because Teddy hasn't played at that level yet.

Hester has two less returns over the same period of time, Hester never led the nation as a returner at Miami, in fact the highest he attained was 5th. Ginn, as I said, led the nation in both categories.

Ginn's highest statistical return average as a kick returner is 29.6. Hester's is 28.7. Ginn's highest statistical return average as a punt returner is 25.6. Hester's highest statistical return average as a punt returner is 17.6.

So suspend your shock, re-align your face, look at the facts and then sit down.

Sorry Boom. I will throw this out there.
Ginn might have led the Collegiate level, but so have many.

Danny Wuerfel
Ron Dayne
Charlie Ward
Tim Couch

Although none of these are the same as Ginn's situation or position, I think you get the gist.
I will say that IF we take him at 9, he better translate some of those numbers into comparable NFL numbers, or its gonna be a long long decade for the phins.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 10:57 AM
Sorry Boom. I will throw this out there.
Ginn might have led the Collegiate level, but so have many.

Danny Wuerfel
Ron Dayne
Charlie Ward
Tim Couch

Although none of these are the same as Ginn's situation or position, I think you get the gist.
I will say that IF we take him at 9, he better translate some of those numbers into comparable NFL numbers, or its gonna be a long long decade for the phins.

Not really. That's QB's you're listing. We're talking returners. The guy came at me with no facts. I gave him the facts. Nuff said.

jim1
02-17-2007, 11:06 AM
Sorry Boom. I will throw this out there.
Ginn might have led the Collegiate level, but so have many.

Danny Wuerfel
Ron Dayne
Charlie Ward
Tim Couch

Although none of these are the same as Ginn's situation or position, I think you get the gist.
I will say that IF we take him at 9, he better translate some of those numbers into comparable NFL numbers, or its gonna be a long long decade for the phins.

I've got to go with Boomer on this one. You can't penalize Ginn because he hasn't played in the pros yet, and I find the comparisons to Wuerffel et al somewhat ludicrous. Danny might be one of the best examples ever of a great college player who just wasn't up to snuff for the pro game. As I argued to my Gator friend years ago about this, you can't take a guy who's throwing motion is reminiscient of a shot put and expect him to compete on a pro level. Good luck, Mr. Wuerffel, throwing a deep out in the NFL.

Ginn? How can you actually compare Wuerffel to Ginn? Even with Ron Dayne and Tim Couch (injuries somewhat to blame), sometimes things just don't work out. Wuerffel had probably the second worst throwing motion that I've ever seen at the college level, Frank Costa (?) from U of Miami had the worst. Ginn will be one of the fastest guys ever to play in the NFL, he made Santonio Holmes look downright slow, and he has escapability and moves, too. In terms of production, he's the best punt returner and kickoff returner in college football.

Comparing Ginn to Wuerffel is a joke, and slighting Ginn as compared to Hester because the former hasn't yet competed in the NFL is, in my estimation, misguided.

The Confessor
02-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Not really. That's QB's you're listing. We're talking returners. The guy came at me with no facts. I gave him the facts. Nuff said.

Except for Dayne that is true, but Dayne led the NCAA in every runningback record imaginable..until Ricky came and broke them all that is.:D

Of course I respect your knowledge, YOU are one of my main sources for football knowledge, and I always hold your non-biased insight with VERY high regard, however, at this point seems like you might be a bit biased towards Ginn. Perhaps for good reason.

Now then you have warmed me to the idea some since last week. I personally dont like what I have seen of him-not at a top 10 pick. If we were at say 15-20 and he was there, then perhaps that would be THE choice. I just hope that if we take him at 9, he lives up to being a top 15 reciever and top ST ace.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 11:17 AM
Except for Dayne that is true, but Dayne led the NCAA in every runningback record imaginable..until Ricky came and broke them all that is.:D

Of course I respect your knowledge, YOU are one of my main sources for football knowledge, and I always hold your non-biased insight with VERY high regard, however, at this point seems like you might be a bit biased towards Ginn. Perhaps for good reason.

Now then you have warmed me to the idea some since last week. I personally dont like what I have seen of him-not at a top 10 pick. If we were at say 15-20 and he was there, then perhaps that would be THE choice. I just hope that if we take him at 9, he lives up to being a top 15 reciever and top ST ace.

The thing is that the QB's you mentioned, well Charlie Ward didn't lvad any statistical categories, but as someone who watched every game of his Heisman winning season, he was a deserving winner. Couch ran Hal Mumme's offense which was intent on pressuring the secondary by throwing and throwing and throwing. Wuerffel ran Spurriers fun n' gun offense, so by the very nature of the offenses that they run, they were going to put up huge numbers. Same with Dayne. Those old farm boys in Wisconsin want to run the ball. Dayne was perfect for that.

But returning kicks and punts is universal. Schemes don't matter.

The Confessor
02-17-2007, 11:24 AM
The thing is that the QB's you mentioned, well Charlie Ward didn't lvad any statistical categories, but as someone who watched every game of his Heisman winning season, he was a deserving winner. Couch ran Hal Mumme's offense which was intent on pressuring the secondary by throwing and throwing and throwing. Wuerffel ran Spurriers fun n' gun offense, so by the very nature of the offenses that they run, they were going to put up huge numbers. Same with Dayne. Those old farm boys in Wisconsin want to run the ball. Dayne was perfect for that.

But returning kicks and punts is universal. Schemes don't matter.


Very good points, and I will point this out. SOMEBODY leads the NCAA in Punt and Kick returns every year. Dont see many guys getting drafted in the top 10 for doing so:wink:. I am sure if I scour the stat pages, I can find many that have comparable or better return numbers than Ginn...

Geforce
02-17-2007, 11:37 AM
Except for Dayne that is true, but Dayne led the NCAA in every runningback record imaginable..until Ricky came and broke them all that is.:D

Of course I respect your knowledge, YOU are one of my main sources for football knowledge, and I always hold your non-biased insight with VERY high regard, however, at this point seems like you might be a bit biased towards Ginn. Perhaps for good reason.

Now then you have warmed me to the idea some since last week. I personally dont like what I have seen of him-not at a top 10 pick. If we were at say 15-20 and he was there, then perhaps that would be THE choice. I just hope that if we take him at 9, he lives up to being a top 15 reciever and top ST ace.

Umm...actually Dayne broke Ricky's rushing record not the other way around.

The Confessor
02-17-2007, 11:45 AM
Umm...actually Dayne broke Ricky's rushing record not the other way around.

Yep, my bad.:o

http://www.football.com/college/records/NCAADiv1CareerRush.shtml

jim1
02-17-2007, 12:19 PM
Very good points, and I will point this out. SOMEBODY leads the NCAA in Punt and Kick returns every year. Dont see many guys getting drafted in the top 10 for doing so:wink:. I am sure if I scour the stat pages, I can find many that have comparable or better return numbers than Ginn...

Yeah, like Wes Welker? Wasn't he the all time leader in punt returns? I like Welker, but he ain't no Ginn. Hester was drafted in the 2nd round almost purely as a return man- what was he position-wise: CB, WR, did anyone ever figure it out or even care? Did he ever HAVE a true position at the U?

So Hester is taken in the 2nd for ST, one of the best picks in the draft. So then we have Ginn, off the charts as a return man and a dangerous receiving deep threat as well. Don't forget what Ginn accomplished as a WR at Ohio State, and don't be surprised if he's drafted in the top 10.

wazzy
02-17-2007, 12:32 PM
Yeah, like Wes Welker? Wasn't he the all time leader in punt returns? I like Welker, but he ain't no Ginn. Hester was drafted in the 2nd round almost purely as a return man- what was he position-wise: CB, WR, did anyone ever figure it out or even care? Did he ever HAVE a true position at the U?

So Hester is taken in the 2nd for ST, one of the best picks in the draft. So then we have Ginn, off the charts as a return man and a dangerous receiving deep threat as well. Don't forget what Ginn accomplished as a WR at Ohio State, and don't be surprised if he's drafted in the top 10.

No he played all over the place Hester! However Ginn I think will give us a huge boost on special teams and if we can hit him on some long bombs early in the season when DC start gameplanning against us there safeties will be pushed back a little more and there will be a little more attention on Ginn which would help our run game a lot! Ronnie and Ricky would like that little pressure off there backs when there trying to make plays!

jim1
02-17-2007, 12:47 PM
No he played all over the place Hester! However Ginn I think will give us a huge boost on special teams and if we can hit him on some long bombs early in the season when DC start gameplanning against us there safeties will be pushed back a little more and there will be a little more attention on Ginn which would help our run game a lot! Ronnie and Ricky would like that little pressure off there backs when there trying to make plays!

I agree. I was at the Bills game last year (in Miami) and they displayed such a lack of respect to our passing game. Sidenote: I like the Bills safeties quite a bit, and I just don't understand how Ko SImpson lasted until the 4th round. I hate to say it, but who will be a better free safety, Simpson or Jason Allen?

That being said, the Bills safeties played it tight and showed very little respect for our passing game, which was of course pathetic. Speaking of pathetic, that was one of the worst performances I have ever seen. The Ray Lucas Debacle was worse, almost surreal- I went as close to the field as possible to breathe it in and sense it, Lucas looked like a Vietnam vet that got popped with some shrapnel in Danang, it was eery, like looking at a walking corpse, at a guy who knew that he had just emabarrssed himself in front of millions and he was done, a ghost.

Anyway, we definitely need help in this regard and need major improvement if we're going to compete. I don't think that opposing safeties would dare show so little respect with Ginn lining up for us.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 12:50 PM
Very good points, and I will point this out. SOMEBODY leads the NCAA in Punt and Kick returns every year. Dont see many guys getting drafted in the top 10 for doing so:wink:. I am sure if I scour the stat pages, I can find many that have comparable or better return numbers than Ginn...

But the majority aren't pro style wideouts either with an ability to attack a secondary or create issues for defensive co-ordinators wherever they line up.

;)

Boomer
02-17-2007, 12:51 PM
No he played all over the place Hester!!


Hester played corner and reciever because he couldn't master either.

wazzy
02-17-2007, 01:05 PM
Hester played corner and reciever because he couldn't master either.

Ya I never meant he was good at every position I just meant he played a variety of positions! KR PR CB and WR

Boomer
02-17-2007, 01:08 PM
;)

wazzy
02-17-2007, 01:14 PM
;)

I know you don't usually make mock drafts or picks before the combine but what teams do you think our going to be heavily interested in Ginn?

rafael
02-17-2007, 01:23 PM
I agree. I was at the Bills game last year (in Miami) and they displayed such a lack of respect to our passing game. Sidenote: I like the Bills safeties quite a bit, and I just don't understand how Ko SImpson lasted until the 4th round. I hate to say it, but who will be a better free safety, Simpson or Jason Allen?

That being said, the Bills safeties played it tight and showed very little respect for our passing game, which was of course pathetic. Speaking of pathetic, that was one of the worst performances I have ever seen. The Ray Lucas Debacle was worse, almost surreal- I went as close to the field as possible to breathe it in and sense it, Lucas looked like a Vietnam vet that got popped with some shrapnel in Danang, it was eery, like looking at a walking corpse, at a guy who knew that he had just emabarrssed himself in front of millions and he was done, a ghost.

Anyway, we definitely need help in this regard and need major improvement if we're going to compete. I don't think that opposing safeties would dare show so little respect with Ginn lining up for us.

I think that could be the reason that Ginn may be worth the pick at #9 (and what makes him different than Hester). There are special players who change the way your opponents play you. Is Ginn going to be the guy that simply by stepping on the field makes the safeties back up and makes the defense too scared to blitz? If he is, that automatically gives Chambers, Booker, Mcmike and Brown more room underneath and in the running game. It makes DC face less pressure. I would spend a #9 pick on a player who provided that.

Of course there is no guarantee that Ginn will, that's the risk. He comes in with the rep and I don't think anybody questions his speed, but at some point he has to produce or the defenses will stop worrying about him. So the question is will he develop as a receiver. IMO he has enough physical skills so it really comes down to his work ethic. From what I've read his work ethic is excellent. He originally came to OSU as a CB. The team switched him to WR so he had to learn the position. By all accounts he worked very hard and produced very well. I wouldn't call him polished at this point but I don't think his route running or hands at that bad. I would rate him ahead of where Chambers was when we drafted him. So based on where he is now and his reported work ethic I think the odds are good that he will continue to develop.

In general, I don't tend to advocate drafting a WR this high and Ginn isn't my first choice among the guys who may be available, but I don't think he'd be a bad pick depending on how the board shook out.

jim1
02-17-2007, 01:55 PM
I think that could be the reason that Ginn may be worth the pick at #9 (and what makes him different than Hester). There are special players who change the way your opponents play you. Is Ginn going to be the guy that simply by stepping on the field makes the safeties back up and makes the defense too scared to blitz? If he is, that automatically gives Chambers, Booker, Mcmike and Brown more room underneath and in the running game. It makes DC face less pressure. I would spend a #9 pick on a player who provided that.

Of course there is no guarantee that Ginn will, that's the risk. He comes in with the rep and I don't think anybody questions his speed, but at some point he has to produce or the defenses will stop worrying about him. So the question is will he develop as a receiver. IMO he has enough physical skills so it really comes down to his work ethic. From what I've read his work ethic is excellent. He originally came to OSU as a CB. The team switched him to WR so he had to learn the position. By all accounts he worked very hard and produced very well. I wouldn't call him polished at this point but I don't think his route running or hands at that bad. I would rate him ahead of where Chambers was when we drafted him. So based on where he is now and his reported work ethic I think the odds are good that he will continue to develop.

In general, I don't tend to advocate drafting a WR this high and Ginn isn't my first choice among the guys who may be available, but I don't think he'd be a bad pick depending on how the board shook out.

Good points all, but I'd be ok with Ginn at #9. If we go Levi Brown at #9 then
PLEASE let there be a stud receiver available at our slot in the 2nd round.

wazzy
02-17-2007, 02:04 PM
The only knock that I have on Ginn is not so much on Ginn its more on the Dolphins! Do you want another guy who might not be a guarantee catch! If his hands prove inconsistancy and Chambers is doing the same as last season it would still leave us with a mediocore passing attack! That is why I like Jarret because his hands are amazing!