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View Full Version : Quinn/Russel ... Manning/Leaf Comparison



Bruzer
02-15-2007, 11:27 AM
I take no credit for this post I found it by a guy at nfldraftcountdown but I thought it was really good read and how similar it is like now.


MWill[/B]]
Scouting reports on Leaf and Manning from 1998. Eerily similar to the differences in Russell and Quinn

Ryan Leaf-
Leaf appears to be the hot QB in this draft, and he led WSU to a storybook season...He is a physically imposing QB with great size and strength....he is very sturdy and durable in the pocket, and is a surprisingly good athlete for his size...He has a strong arm and shows good touch, and can change up the speed on his passes...He has good feet, but is not really a scrambler. However, he can stand in and take the big hits....He is a very naturally gifted player, but could improve on his throwing mechanics, although it is not a major problem....There are no physical or athletic limitations to hold Leaf back from becoming a great NFL QB. However, there appears to be some minor nagging questions in the area of maturity and his mental approach to the game. He is perceived as not always an easy guy to work with, and he tends to beat to his own drummer...As good as he is, he can have some streaks on the field where he looks like he has forgotten everything he has been taught...There seems to be a nagging question here that something might be missing, but it may be hard to verbalize it...However, Leaf made all the right moves at the end of his season when he declared for the NFL draft...Unless he turns some teams off in individual interviews between now and the draft, he should have no problems....Nobody will question his physical abilities, and it is not outlandish to think that he could be the first pick of the draft, instead of Peyton Manning....There is a huge upside with Leaf, and it is conceivable that he could be one of the best young QB’s in the game in 2-3 years...His ability to play as physical as he does and take the hits that will obviously come, when playing for a team that obviously doesn’t have a very good OL, will help him get over the tough times as a team builds around him.
- Note that they have unlimited potential and are physical specimens

Peyton Manning
Manning is probably the most prepared QB to enter the NFL draft in several years.. He has had a storybook college career, and has been in a top level program with excellent coaching, and he has maturity and great intangibles to go along with his natural skills.. He should be able to pick up the mental aspects of the game early on the NFL level, and should play very quickly. He has great overall field vision. He is a fierce competitor, and all of his mechanics are very solid. He has good arm strength, but not necessarily a “gun” that you might expect from a QB at the top of the draft.. He has adequate mobility and good overall AA, although he is not a scrambler by nature. He has done an excellent job of getting the most out of his abilities, but he is not quite as natural a player as Leaf. One question that some NFL scouts have is the question “will he get any better?”. At times he gives the appearance of being a self-made player, and sometimes those types of players don’t always go on to great NFL careers. In Manning’s case, he may be a solid and productive NFL QB, but he may not have Hall of Fame type skills, but it certainly won’t be for lack of effort.. He has probably been the most scouted player in the draft in recent years, and because that NFL teams tend to look too much at potential flaws, instead of accepting him for what he is, a great college QB that is on his way to an outstanding NFL career.
- Smart, but has a ceiling on improving

IluvJuMiami
02-15-2007, 11:32 AM
That's eerie dude. You could easily replace the names of the players with Russell/Quinn and the bio's would make perfect sense.

Good stuff.

ChambersWI
02-15-2007, 11:46 AM
I think the one thing that could separate Russell from Leaf is their attitude. Leaf had all the skills to improve, but he had a horrible attitude and refused help. Russell has got a great attitude.

I mean, Leaf's attitude was so bad his High School got rid of all mention of him and all the records he set at it(this was while at Wazzou), and Leaf had a lot of famous meltdowns.

Not saying Russell won't bust since the comparisons are very similar. But a big reason for Leaf's failure was his attitude, and Russell is relatively humble.

VT Dolphan
02-15-2007, 11:46 AM
The Ryan Leaf/JaMarcus Russell comparison is a little forced IMO, but Peyton's scouting report sounds exactly like Quinns. I've said all along if i had the choice between the two of them, I'd take Quinn.

Good find.

Bruzer
02-15-2007, 11:47 AM
Yea I don't agree a ton with the russel / leaf comparision but I posted becuase thats what the post was about and also the quinn / manning is like a clone.

Boomer
02-15-2007, 11:52 AM
Quinn is the most committed to the cause QB to come into the draft since Peyton.

Bruzer
02-15-2007, 11:56 AM
Quinn is the most committed to the cause QB to come into the draft since Peyton.

Well since boomer said it we got to get quinn :D. Although him slipping to us I don't really think that will happen. I think browns will take peterson but I am most worried about texans and vikings.

Boomer
02-15-2007, 12:05 PM
I think Houston will move for Jake Plummer or try and get in the Peterson sweepstakes. As for the Vikings, I would imagine that Jeff Garcia and indeed David Carr are two likely pick-ups. If they took Quinn, they would have admitted to wasting a 2nd round pick on Tavaris Jackson and they're not about to do that as I know they're high on him for the long term.

PerfectFinz72
02-15-2007, 12:45 PM
Its funny, because prior to the draft I'm sure any team that was interested in Leaf probably disregarded this blurb:



He is perceived as not always an easy guy to work with, and he tends to beat to his own drummer...As good as he is, he can have some streaks on the field where he looks like he has forgotten everything he has been taught...There seems to be a nagging question here that something might be missing, but it may be hard to verbalize it...

That couldn't have been any more dead on then stated. Everyone gets sucked into the physical portion of the player but usually turns a blind eye to the mental portion. Leaf is the best example of this. Physically he had the tools to be a great QB. Mentality, he had nothing at all. BTW, good find on this stuff and not a bad comparison.

Regan21286
02-15-2007, 01:43 PM
That's eerie dude. You could easily replace the names of the players with Russell/Quinn and the bio's would make perfect sense.

Good stuff.

Save for the Leaf attitude, those are really similar. And I'm hoping Quinn can be our version of Peyton-lite. If you look at the teams ahead of us, they've made their bets already on Jackson and Campbell and already have guys who show promise in Frye and Simms.


In Manning’s case, he may be a solid and productive NFL QB, but he may not have Hall of Fame type skills :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol:

OneHondo
02-15-2007, 01:59 PM
Here is comparisons of Russell, Quinn and some of the greats college stats:

Brady Quinn’s College Career Stats: Notre Dame
Comp 929 Attempts 1602 Yards 11,762 Comp % 57.5 Tds 95 Ints 39 QB Rating 152.64

Joe Montana’s College Career Stats:
Comp 291 Attempts 574 Yards 4,395 Comp % 50.7 Tds 27 Ints 28 QB Rating N/A

Dan Marino’s College Career Stats: Pittsburgh
Comp 693 Attempts 1204 Yards 8,597 Comp % 57.6 Tds 79 Ints 69 QB Rating 77.7

John Elway’s College Career Stats: Stanford
Comp 774 Attempts 1243 Yards 9,349 Comp % 62.1 Tds 77 Ints N/A QB Rating N/A

Jamarcus Russell College Career Stats: LSU
Comp 493 Attempts 797 Yards 6625 Comp % 61.8 Tds 52 Ints 21 QB Rating 143.6

I also read a post on another thread that Quinn was a sure bust because he never played big in big games and he never won a bowl game. I found that amusing since John Elway never played in a bowl game and never led Stanford to a bowl appearence

Boomer
02-15-2007, 02:35 PM
I don't understand thv Quinn hatred as well. I think he's a heck of a player.

marcodolphin
02-15-2007, 02:41 PM
i hope we draft quinn he is definetly going to be great

DolfanTom
02-15-2007, 02:46 PM
There seems to be a nagging question here that something might be missing, but it may be hard to verbalize it

This part about Leaf is just eerie!! Like this scout had a crystal ball while writing this particular sentence.

Like most of you, comparing Russell's head to Leaf's is a bit of a stretch, but the Quinn/Manning one is right on, although I'd be shocked if Quinn becomes another Manning in the NFL.

That said - IMO - I don't see how Quinn would outright fail in the NFL. We could do far worse (and have! :fire:)

jlfin
02-15-2007, 03:50 PM
This part about Leaf is just eerie!! Like this scout had a crystal ball while writing this particular sentence.

Like most of you, comparing Russell's head to Leaf's is a bit of a stretch, but the Quinn/Manning one is right on, although I'd be shocked if Quinn becomes another Manning in the NFL.

That said - IMO - I don't see how Quinn would outright fail in the NFL. We could do far worse (and have! :fire:)


Charlie Weiss has called Quinn a quick study. He picked up his playbook without any problems.
At the worst BQ will be on par with a QB like Trent Green. At best, he will be on the level of Brady and Manning. I don't understand how some can legitimately say he has bust written all over him, then go on and call for the Phins to draft Ginn.

montrealfinfan
02-15-2007, 04:01 PM
Brady Quinn is a great player, I don't bame him for never winning a bowl game, thats the teams fault, not his.

ASUFinFan
02-15-2007, 05:15 PM
Quinn is the most committed to the cause QB to come into the draft since Peyton.

Well I would love for him to fall to us at 9 then, or us trade up a few spots to make sure we get him. If we can get a class act like peyton to run this offence then I am all for it.

ASUFinFan
02-15-2007, 05:17 PM
I think Houston will move for Jake Plummer or try and get in the Peterson sweepstakes. As for the Vikings, I would imagine that Jeff Garcia and indeed David Carr are two likely pick-ups. If they took Quinn, they would have admitted to wasting a 2nd round pick on Tavaris Jackson and they're not about to do that as I know they're high on him for the long term.

Where do you see Brady going in the draft then Boomer? because it would be awsome if he fell to us at 9, that or we trade up a few sports to insure we get him. I think he would be a great Qb in Cams system as well.

DolfanTom
02-15-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't understand how some can legitimately say he has bust written all over him, then go on and call for the Phins to draft Ginn.
Exactly!

Talk about a guy (Ginn) who is talented for sure, but has question marks all over him!

Like you said, Quinn is a quick study! You can't teach that kind of talent to guys! You either are smart, or you are not! Quinn has all the physical tools, plus the brain to learn quickly AND learn from what will undoubtedly be his early mistakes!!

We'll be lucky to get him.

wonderl33t
02-15-2007, 06:45 PM
Quinn has never won a big game in his life... eerily similar to the big knock on Peyton (pre-SB win obviously)

That being said, Vince Young and Matt Leinart are 1000x better pro prospects than Russell/Quinn.

PhinCanuck
02-15-2007, 06:47 PM
The Ryan Leaf/JaMarcus Russell comparison is a little forced IMO, but Peyton's scouting report sounds exactly like Quinns. I've said all along if i had the choice between the two of them, I'd take Quinn.

Good find.
I would take Quinn too. Russell might sounhd good right now, but Brady is the man.

phinphanforever
02-15-2007, 11:25 PM
I don't understand thv Quinn hatred as well. I think he's a heck of a player.
I don't think it's hatred. Certainly not in my case. I too think he's a good prospect but I'm not sold on him as the next great QB.
I just don't think we should be going Qb in this year's draft; not with the QBs we have on our roster or with the amount of holes we need to fill.
If Quinn falls to 9,which I doubt will happen, I would like to see us package a deal for more picks.

dominizzo
02-16-2007, 12:28 AM
I don't understand thv Quinn hatred as well. I think he's a heck of a player.

Who is quinn compared to

Boomer
02-16-2007, 07:23 AM
Where do you see Brady going in the draft then Boomer? because it would be awsome if he fell to us at 9, that or we trade up a few sports to insure we get him. I think he would be a great Qb in Cams system as well.

I think he could go anywhere in the first 9 picks. You could also get a team like Carolina trading up to get him.

Essentially in Cameron's system he's perfect. He's a leader, a ridiculously hard worker off the field, his whole life is tailored to success, from his diet to his film study. He can go down the field, he has great touch, he's much more mobile than he's given credit for, he can throw on the run and what I really like about him is the amount of passes he hits between the hashes down the field with 2 or 3 defenders around. Perfectly placed balls.

And this stuff about not winning the big game is such nonsense.

Boomer
02-16-2007, 07:47 AM
Who is quinn compared to

The obvious comparison is Tom Brady. I think he's more naturally talented than Tom and much more athletic. Whether that bares out in the NFL remains to be seen.

Regan21286
02-16-2007, 01:11 PM
I think he could go anywhere in the first 9 picks. You could also get a team like Carolina trading up to get him.

Essentially in Cameron's system he's perfect. He's a leader, a ridiculously hard worker off the field, his whole life is tailored to success, from his diet to his film study. He can go down the field, he has great touch, he's much more mobile than he's given credit for, he can throw on the run and what I really like about him is the amount of passes he hits between the hashes down the field with 2 or 3 defenders around. Perfectly placed balls.

And this stuff about not winning the big game is such nonsense.

Pretty much what I thought. With that horrid ND OL, the fact that he manages to stay decent is a pretty good sign he might gel well here. And here he hopefully won't have to deal with a shoddy defense backing him up.

What do you think his odds are at coming here?

Boomer
02-16-2007, 03:26 PM
What do you think his odds are at coming here?

I'd say as good as 50/50. He could go anywhere between pick 1-9 and you can't rule out a team like Carolina moving up.

caneaddict
02-16-2007, 03:27 PM
Charlie Weiss has said that within 2-3 years Quinn will be the 3rd best QB in the NFL behing Brady and Manning.

I know he has a connection to Quinn and therefore might be biased, it's hard to discount his assesment. Weiss worked closely with Brady and has coached against all the QB's in the NFL. He knows Quinn better than any scout out there and has more knowledge regarding QB's then any scout out there.

ASUFinFan
02-16-2007, 05:21 PM
I'd say as good as 50/50. He could go anywhere between pick 1-9 and you can't rule out a team like Carolina moving up.

I think that if he falls past 5 we make sure we get him, either by moving up a few spots or whatever. For some reason I just cant see him lasting to 9. He would be the perfect qb for this team though.

daniel3
02-16-2007, 06:09 PM
If nostradamus can predict the kennedy assassinations, then these bios most certainly say something about the futures of Russell and Quinn.

phinphanforever
02-16-2007, 07:15 PM
The obvious comparison is Tom Brady. I think he's more naturally talented than Tom and much more athletic. Whether that bares out in the NFL remains to be seen.
The comparison to Brady is a little rich. Sorry, but Tom Brady is, in my opinion, the best QB to have played in my time as a football fan. That period would include Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Young or Aikman.
Quinn gets comparisons to Brady mainly because of C. Weiss. Weiss has been selling the propoganda on Quinn heavily. I'm not buying, though.

Tom Brady comes through in the clutch better than any one ever has in the past. It is the most important attribute any professional athlete can have. It is difficult to measure but the best barometer is the number of championships-or how the athlete performs in big games. Quinn has flopped in the big games. His supporters will tell you that his O-line was miserable, and there is a kernel of truth in the argument, however, Quinn missed a lot of throws, and at critical times. A great Qb can make his O-line look a lot better than they actually are.
The fact that Quinn may have better measurables as far as athletic or 'natural' talent is concerned is misleading and irrelevant. Michael Vick has more natural talent than 10 Tom Brady's but he's probably not even a top 10 QB in the league.

If there is going to be any comparison, the more appropriate one is Carson Palmer, but even then, I think it is a big stretch. We could be looking at a slightly more gifted Joey Harrington. Slightly.

Regan21286
02-16-2007, 07:34 PM
The comparison to Brady is a little rich. Sorry, but Tom Brady is, in my opinion, the best QB to have played in my time as a football fan. That period would include Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Young or Aikman.
Quinn gets comparisons to Brady mainly because of C. Weiss. Weiss has been selling the propoganda on Quinn heavily. I'm not buying, though.

Tom Brady comes through in the clutch better than any one ever has in the past. It is the most important attribute any professional athlete can have. It is difficult to measure but the best barometer is the number of championships-or how the athlete performs in big games. Quinn has flopped in the big games. His supporters will tell you that his O-line was miserable, and there is a kernel of truth in the argument, however, Quinn missed a lot of throws, and at critical times. A great Qb can make his O-line look a lot better than they actually are.
The fact that Quinn may have better measurables as far as athletic or 'natural' talent is concerned is misleading and irrelevant. Michael Vick has more natural talent than 10 Tom Brady's but he's probably not even a top 10 QB in the league.

If there is going to be any comparison, the more appropriate one is Carson Palmer, but even then, I think it is a big stretch. We could be looking at a slightly more gifted Joey Harrington. Slightly.

Brady sure didn't come in the clutch against the Colts and Peyton was regarded as anti-clutch. As for the Joey Harrington comparison, don't even start there. Quinn was brought up in a pro style offense installed by an actual offensive coordinator from a pretty good NFL team. Harrington was brought up in a system installed by Jeff Tedford, whose methodology towards QB's leaves them underdeveloped in the pros. One thing about Weis is, unlike Belichick, that man doesn't lie. If he says Brady Quinn is comparable to Tom Brady, it's probably for real.

Boomer
02-16-2007, 07:57 PM
The comparison to Brady is a little rich. Sorry, but Tom Brady is, in my opinion, the best QB to have played in my time as a football fan. That period would include Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Young or Aikman.
Quinn gets comparisons to Brady mainly because of C. Weiss. Weiss has been selling the propoganda on Quinn heavily. I'm not buying, though.

Tom Brady comes through in the clutch better than any one ever has in the past. It is the most important attribute any professional athlete can have. It is difficult to measure but the best barometer is the number of championships-or how the athlete performs in big games. Quinn has flopped in the big games. His supporters will tell you that his O-line was miserable, and there is a kernel of truth in the argument, however, Quinn missed a lot of throws, and at critical times. A great Qb can make his O-line look a lot better than they actually are.
The fact that Quinn may have better measurables as far as athletic or 'natural' talent is concerned is misleading and irrelevant. Michael Vick has more natural talent than 10 Tom Brady's but he's probably not even a top 10 QB in the league.

If there is going to be any comparison, the more appropriate one is Carson Palmer, but even then, I think it is a big stretch. We could be looking at a slightly more gifted Joey Harrington. Slightly.


Actually it's not rich at all. It's pretty accurate. Both of them have good field vision, set up similarly, are leaders, are mentally very strong, are film hounds, deliver the ball similarly. This isn't just my opinion. It's he opinion of the man who coached both of them and unless you're Charlie Weis (one 's'), the I'd rather go with him on this one and on my own evaluations of Quinn over his 4 year career in South Bend. Which mark my words, is a LOT of tape study.

As good as Tom Brady is, you're in a small minority that thinks he's a better pro than the list you made.

Which big games has Quinn flopped in? Please don't say OSU and LSU. Those defeats were down to the fact that Notre Dame had no business in those games in the first place and that showed on the field. That wasn't Brady Quinn's fault. I'd rather look at how he beat Michigan as a sophomore or brought ND back from 21+ down against MSU or how he drove 87 yards, completing all three passes and then running in from 5 yards away against USC as a junior at games end. You state that he had a bad OL - which he did - but then you refuse to allow Quinn the fact that at times he didn't get time to set up or to work his progressions because he was being smothered. And if Darius Walker was getting shut down, then the onus fell even heavier on his shoulders.

The natural talent thing you bring up is nonsensical. Vick has athletic talent. I'm talking QB talent, intangibles. I mean, was Tom Brady showing off all that talent when Michigan won 4 National Titles and he won back to back to back to back Heisman's during his tenure?

Carson Palmer?? Quinn is much more mobile than Carson, throws much more accurately on the run and doesn't have the deep arm of Palmer. And as for calling him a 'slightly more gifted Joey Harrington', underlines how flawed your argument is. When did Joey last have a 69-14 TD ration over 2 years? Or go 226 throws without a pick?

Bruzer
02-16-2007, 08:12 PM
Actually it's not rich at all. It's pretty accurate. Both of them have good field vision, set up similarly, are leaders, are mentally very strong, are film hounds, deliver the ball similarly. This isn't just my opinion. It's he opinion of the man who coached both of them and unless you're Charlie Weis (one 's'), the I'd rather go with him on this one and on my own evaluations of Quinn over his 4 year career in South Bend. Which mark my words, is a LOT of tape study.

As good as Tom Brady is, you're in a small minority that thinks he's a better pro than the list you made.

Which big games has Quinn flopped in? Please don't say OSU and LSU. Those defeats were down to the fact that Notre Dame had no business in those games in the first place and that showed on the field. That wasn't Brady Quinn's fault. I'd rather look at how he beat Michigan as a sophomore or brought ND back from 21+ down against MSU or how he drove 87 yards, completing all three passes and then running in from 5 yards away against USC as a junior. You state that he had a bad OL - which he did - but then you refuse to allow Quinn the fact that at times he didn't get time to set up or to work his progressions because he was being smothered. And if Darius Walker was getting shut down, then the onus fell even heavier on his shoulders.

The natural talent thing you bring up is nonsensical. Vick has athletic talent. I'm talking QB talent, intangibles. I mean, was Tom Brady showing off all that talent when Michigan won 4 National Titles and he won back to back to back to back Heisman's during his tenure?

Carson Palmer?? Quinn is much more mobile than Carson, throws much more accurately on the run and doesn't have the deep arm of Palmer. And as for calling him a 'slightly more gifted Joey Harrington', underlines how flawed your argument is. When did Joey last have a 69-14 TD ration over 2 years? Or go 226 throws without a pick?

Great post. I am hoping miami gets quinn I am ready for our own franchise qb. I mean if culpepper does work out we can groom quinn 2-3 years and then see what quinn can do if culpepper doesn't work out we got a qb and not another year of sub par qb play. (providing the qb we get works out and I think quinn has most chance)

DonShula84
02-16-2007, 08:22 PM
Actually it's not rich at all. It's pretty accurate. Both of them have good field vision, set up similarly, are leaders, are mentally very strong, are film hounds, deliver the ball similarly. This isn't just my opinion. It's he opinion of the man who coached both of them and unless you're Charlie Weis (one 's'), the I'd rather go with him on this one and on my own evaluations of Quinn over his 4 year career in South Bend. Which mark my words, is a LOT of tape study.

As good as Tom Brady is, you're in a small minority that thinks he's a better pro than the list you made.

Which big games has Quinn flopped in? Please don't say OSU and LSU. Those defeats were down to the fact that Notre Dame had no business in those games in the first place and that showed on the field. That wasn't Brady Quinn's fault. I'd rather look at how he beat Michigan as a sophomore or brought ND back from 21+ down against MSU or how he drove 87 yards, completing all three passes and then running in from 5 yards away against USC as a junior. You state that he had a bad OL - which he did - but then you refuse to allow Quinn the fact that at times he didn't get time to set up or to work his progressions because he was being smothered. And if Darius Walker was getting shut down, then the onus fell even heavier on his shoulders.

The natural talent thing you bring up is nonsensical. Vick has athletic talent. I'm talking QB talent, intangibles. I mean, was Tom Brady showing off all that talent when Michigan won 4 National Titles and he won back to back to back to back Heisman's during his tenure?

Carson Palmer?? Quinn is much more mobile than Carson, throws much more accurately on the run and doesn't have the deep arm of Palmer. And as for calling him a 'slightly more gifted Joey Harrington', underlines how flawed your argument is. When did Joey last have a 69-14 TD ration over 2 years? Or go 226 throws without a pick?


:allhail:

NorFlaFin
02-16-2007, 09:25 PM
A quick about Leaf, as SD never bother to build an OL to keep him upright.

Drafting Quinn is the right thing to do; keeping him upright and clean, is even better.

brandon27
02-16-2007, 10:01 PM
The Ryan Leaf/JaMarcus Russell comparison is a little forced IMO, but Peyton's scouting report sounds exactly like Quinns. I've said all along if i had the choice between the two of them, I'd take Quinn.

Good find.

I would probably take Quinn too, but the only thing that worries me is his poor performance in big games.

jlfin
02-16-2007, 10:08 PM
The comparison to Brady is a little rich. Sorry, but Tom Brady is, in my opinion, the best QB to have played in my time as a football fan. That period would include Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Young or Aikman.
Quinn gets comparisons to Brady mainly because of C. Weiss. Weiss has been selling the propoganda on Quinn heavily. I'm not buying, though.

Tom Brady comes through in the clutch better than any one ever has in the past. It is the most important attribute any professional athlete can have. It is difficult to measure but the best barometer is the number of championships-or how the athlete performs in big games. Quinn has flopped in the big games. His supporters will tell you that his O-line was miserable, and there is a kernel of truth in the argument, however, Quinn missed a lot of throws, and at critical times. A great Qb can make his O-line look a lot better than they actually are.
The fact that Quinn may have better measurables as far as athletic or 'natural' talent is concerned is misleading and irrelevant. Michael Vick has more natural talent than 10 Tom Brady's but he's probably not even a top 10 QB in the league.

If there is going to be any comparison, the more appropriate one is Carson Palmer, but even then, I think it is a big stretch. We could be looking at a slightly more gifted Joey Harrington. Slightly.


You are not old enough to remember Montana, Elway, Kelly or Marino in their primes. Brady couldn't touch any of them. Elway and Marino made below average teams into playoff teams by carrying those teams with their arm. Brady cannot do that. He needs the coaching and supporting cast.

finfan54
02-16-2007, 11:50 PM
I don't understand thv Quinn hatred as well. I think he's a heck of a player.

I dont know a whole deal in depth about Quinn. He seems polished to me. He also looked much worse than Russell in head to head matchups.

I totally do not get the comparison of Russell to Leaf. I find that to be way off. But if it means that we can draft him at #9, im all for that!:D

finfan54
02-16-2007, 11:57 PM
Charlie Weiss has called Quinn a quick study. He picked up his playbook without any problems.
At the worst BQ will be on par with a QB like Trent Green. At best, he will be on the level of Brady and Manning. I don't understand how some can legitimately say he has bust written all over him, then go on and call for the Phins to draft Ginn.



oh god yes! I would take Ryan Kalil over Ginn. If i were forced to choose between the two.

phins3454
02-17-2007, 12:23 AM
that is just ridiculous comparrison

finfan54
02-17-2007, 12:44 AM
that is just ridiculous comparrison

No its not. It means that Ginn is overrated IMO. Ginn wont solve our problems on offense. Anthony Gonzalez will end up being more productive IMO unless Ginn becomes a KR/PR, which is what he will be in his first few years. He doesnt have the wherewithall to do it all at the pro level.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 05:40 AM
I dont know a whole deal in depth about Quinn. He seems polished to me. He also looked much worse than Russell in head to head matchups.

Consider the fact that Russell was throwing to Dwayne Bowe, Craig Davis, and early Doucet. Bowe is a 1st rounder, Davis is a borderline 1, Doucet is a 1 next year. The LSU talent level FAR exceeds that of Notre Dame. LSU's DL was MUCH stronger than the Irish's line, so they shut down Darius Walker, they pressured Quinn and he never had a second.

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 12:42 PM
Actually it's not rich at all. It's pretty accurate. Both of them have good field vision, set up similarly, are leaders, are mentally very strong, are film hounds, deliver the ball similarly. This isn't just my opinion. It's he opinion of the man who coached both of them and unless you're Charlie Weis (one 's'), the I'd rather go with him on this one and on my own evaluations of Quinn over his 4 year career in South Bend. Which mark my words, is a LOT of tape study.
If Quinn were as you advertise then I can assure you no one would be talking about him falling to the #9 spot. This isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion (t before he) of several scouts.
And I'm happy that you've done your tape study. So have I but mine has not been coloured by ND propoganda. To suggest that Quinn is as accurate as Brady is a farce. There are serious concerns about Quinn's accuracy when he attempts intermediate to deep throws.


As good as Tom Brady is, you're in a small minority that thinks he's a better pro than the list you made.
The majority is often wrong. The point is that he's won 3 SBs and he hasn't yet reached the peak of his career.


Which big games has Quinn flopped in? Please don't say OSU and LSU. Those defeats were down to the fact that Notre Dame had no business in those games in the first place and that showed on the field. That wasn't Brady Quinn's fault. I'd rather look at how he beat Michigan as a sophomore or brought ND back from 21+ down against MSU or how he drove 87 yards, completing all three passes and then running in from 5 yards away against USC as a junior at games end. You state that he had a bad OL - which he did - but then you refuse to allow Quinn the fact that at times he didn't get time to set up or to work his progressions because he was being smothered. And if Darius Walker was getting shut down, then the onus fell even heavier on his shoulders.
I'd prefer to focus my attention on how he played in big games this year, and frankly, he wilted like a lilly in the Sahara. Please stop the noise about his O-line. As mentioned before, a great Qb -and let's be clear here, it is YOU who are making the comparisons to the Great Tom Brady- makes his O-line better. I know a lot of QBs who would have hall of fame careers if they were given 6-8 seconds every snap to go through their progressions. Brady makes his own time. Quinn appears to have poor pocket presence.


The natural talent thing you bring up is nonsensical. Vick has athletic talent. I'm talking QB talent, intangibles. I mean, was Tom Brady showing off all that talent when Michigan won 4 National Titles and he won back to back to back to back Heisman's during his tenure?
Apologies to you Boomer the amnesiac. It was You who made the natural talent comparisons. And I agree with your assessment about intangibles but there are many saying Quinn doesn't have that "it" factor.


Carson Palmer?? Quinn is much more mobile than Carson, throws much more accurately on the run and doesn't have the deep arm of Palmer. And as for calling him a 'slightly more gifted Joey Harrington', underlines how flawed your argument is. When did Joey last have a 69-14 TD ration over 2 years? Or go 226 throws without a pick?
The comparison to Palmer is a natural one based on their physical attributes. The one to Harrington is based on the fact that both were touted as "saviours" and didn't live up to expectations. Look, I think Quinn has a good chance of having some success in the NFl but to compare him to Brady is a joke.

Crowder52
02-17-2007, 12:52 PM
If Quinn were as you advertise then I can assure you no one would be talking about him falling to the #9 spot. This isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion (t before he) of several scouts.
And I'm happy that you've done your tape study. So have I but mine has not been coloured by ND propoganda. To suggest that Quinn is as accurate as Brady is a farce. There are serious concerns about Quinn's accuracy when he attempts intermediate to deep throws.


The majority is often wrong. The point is that he's won 3 SBs and he hasn't yet reached the peak of his career.


I'd prefer to focus my attention on how he played in big games this year, and frankly, he wilted like a lilly in the Sahara. Please stop the noise about his O-line. As mentioned before, a great Qb -and let's be clear here, it is YOU who are making the comparisons to the Great Tom Brady- makes his O-line better. I know a lot of QBs who would have hall of fame careers if they were given 6-8 seconds every snap to go through their progressions. Brady makes his own time. Quinn appears to have poor pocket presence.


Apologies to you Boomer the amnesiac. It was You who made the natural talent comparisons. And I agree with your assessment about intangibles but there are many saying Quinn doesn't have that "it" factor.


The comparison to Palmer is a natural one based on their physical attributes. The one to Harrington is based on the fact that both were touted as "saviours" and didn't live up to expectations. Look, I think Quinn has a good chance of having some success in the NFl but to compare him to Brady is a joke.

:allhail:

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 12:53 PM
You are not old enough to remember Montana, Elway, Kelly or Marino in their primes. Brady couldn't touch any of them. Elway and Marino made below average teams into playoff teams by carrying those teams with their arm. Brady cannot do that. He needs the coaching and supporting cast.\
Perhaps you're too old to suggest that I can't remember. Sorry Gramps but I do rememebr all those players in their prime. I'm also an avid collector of football video. To sugggest that Brady didn't carry his team, or more importantly to suggest that Montana, Kelly or Elway did is a farce. Denver, SF and Buffalo had a lot of talent on those teams. In case you already forgot, let me just list off a few of those names on those teams (and I won't even bother mentioning the Defenses, which were excellent in some cases): Clark, Rice, Craig, Rathman, T Davis, S Sharpe, T Thomas, A Reed....)

wazzy
02-17-2007, 12:58 PM
Actually it's not rich at all. It's pretty accurate. Both of them have good field vision, set up similarly, are leaders, are mentally very strong, are film hounds, deliver the ball similarly. This isn't just my opinion. It's he opinion of the man who coached both of them and unless you're Charlie Weis (one 's'), the I'd rather go with him on this one and on my own evaluations of Quinn over his 4 year career in South Bend. Which mark my words, is a LOT of tape study.

As good as Tom Brady is, you're in a small minority that thinks he's a better pro than the list you made.

Which big games has Quinn flopped in? Please don't say OSU and LSU. Those defeats were down to the fact that Notre Dame had no business in those games in the first place and that showed on the field. That wasn't Brady Quinn's fault. I'd rather look at how he beat Michigan as a sophomore or brought ND back from 21+ down against MSU or how he drove 87 yards, completing all three passes and then running in from 5 yards away against USC as a junior at games end. You state that he had a bad OL - which he did - but then you refuse to allow Quinn the fact that at times he didn't get time to set up or to work his progressions because he was being smothered. And if Darius Walker was getting shut down, then the onus fell even heavier on his shoulders.

The natural talent thing you bring up is nonsensical. Vick has athletic talent. I'm talking QB talent, intangibles. I mean, was Tom Brady showing off all that talent when Michigan won 4 National Titles and he won back to back to back to back Heisman's during his tenure?

Carson Palmer?? Quinn is much more mobile than Carson, throws much more accurately on the run and doesn't have the deep arm of Palmer. And as for calling him a 'slightly more gifted Joey Harrington', underlines how flawed your argument is. When did Joey last have a 69-14 TD ration over 2 years? Or go 226 throws without a pick?

All I can say is I do not want to be on the opposite end of an argument with Boomber when regarding to football! Man you know your stuff and your updated on everything! With that said I would like Quinn if he slips to us but if he doesn't I really don't want to trade up to get him if we have to give up a lot!

I know a lot of people have a lock on Cleveland grabbing Peterson but now with JLewis being cut if they grabbed him in free agency not only would that piss off a rival it would give them 2 big backs and position filled so they can grab Quinn if they wanted!

Boomer
02-17-2007, 01:03 PM
If Quinn were as you advertise then I can assure you no one would be talking about him falling to the #9 spot. This isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion (t before he) of several scouts.
And I'm happy that you've done your tape study. So have I but mine has not been coloured by ND propoganda. To suggest that Quinn is as accurate as Brady is a farce. There are serious concerns about Quinn's accuracy when he attempts intermediate to deep throws.


The majority is often wrong. The point is that he's won 3 SBs and he hasn't yet reached the peak of his career.


I'd prefer to focus my attention on how he played in big games this year, and frankly, he wilted like a lilly in the Sahara. Please stop the noise about his O-line. As mentioned before, a great Qb -and let's be clear here, it is YOU who are making the comparisons to the Great Tom Brady- makes his O-line better. I know a lot of QBs who would have hall of fame careers if they were given 6-8 seconds every snap to go through their progressions. Brady makes his own time. Quinn appears to have poor pocket presence.


Apologies to you Boomer the amnesiac. It was You who made the natural talent comparisons. And I agree with your assessment about intangibles but there are many saying Quinn doesn't have that "it" factor.


The comparison to Palmer is a natural one based on their physical attributes. The one to Harrington is based on the fact that both were touted as "saviours" and didn't live up to expectations. Look, I think Quinn has a good chance of having some success in the NFl but to compare him to Brady is a joke.


First of all.....FLMAO @ Notre Dame propaganda. I mean seriously.

Which scouts can you name that are talking about him slipping? Please.....enlighten me. Perhaps you don't understand the draft process and the way that you learn never to believe anything that comes out of the papers and especially from un-named scouts. Matt Leinart fell last season......is he a bad QB?

You believe what you like on what you think you know about Quinn's accuracy. I'll go on watching more than 500 passes of his, if that's OK with you. What's hilarious is that you're summarily ignoring the fact that Brady was mediocre at Michigan and then bashing Quinn because he's not yet won 3 Superbowls.

Which big games this year did he wilt in? As for the rest of the nonsense about the offensive line, it hardly bears a response other than to say that you must be pretty stupid if you think anyone would intonate that a passer needed 6/8 seconds per throw. But bving able to get out of your drop and set up, is a little different, no? But having watched so much non propoganda Irish football, you'd of course know this. I mean when teams shut down Darius Walker and Quinn had two possession types and no true deep threat out wide, allowing superior teams with superior defense to flood the LOS and force him to beat them when throwing 8 and 9 defenders at him.

Palmer and Quinn have similar physical attributes? Really? They're both white and play QB. That's about it. Palmer has a much bigger arm and very little ability to move the pocket and create plays with his feet, unlike Quinn.

Maybe you didn't see that on your hours of copius study watching non-propoganda Notre Damv football?

Lest we not forget that you claimed Tom Brady was a better QB than Montana, Favre and Marino, which sort of destroys your credibility from the get-go.

Geforce
02-17-2007, 01:26 PM
I'd prefer to focus my attention on how he played in big games this year, and frankly, he wilted like a lilly in the Sahara. Please stop the noise about his O-line. As mentioned before, a great Qb -and let's be clear here, it is YOU who are making the comparisons to the Great Tom Brady- makes his O-line better. I know a lot of QBs who would have hall of fame careers if they were given 6-8 seconds every snap to go through their progressions. Brady makes his own time. Quinn appears to have poor pocket presence.

To a degree this is true BUT if the O-Line doesn't give the QB time to go through his progressions, then no matter how great he his...he will not be effective. Tom Brady showed that this year against us. He got rattled when he was not given enough time to make his reads.

Brady makes his own time? I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Tom Brady is pretty much a pocket passer and relies heavily on his O-Line to give him time to do what he does best...throw passes in the short to immediate areas.

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 01:27 PM
First of all.....FLMAO @ Notre Dame propaganda. I mean seriously.
Glad to hear you're laughing because it sounds as though you need it. Maybe it will knock loose some of those cobwebs in your knoggin' cloggin' your reason on Quinn.


Matt Leinart fell last season......is he a bad QB? I didn't comapre Matt Leinart to Tom Brady. I never said Quinn was a bad Qb, I said he's no Tom Brady.


You believe what you like on what you think you know about Quinn's accuracy. I'll go on watching more than 500 passes of his, if that's OK with you. What's hilarious is that you're summarily ignoring the fact that Brady was mediocre at Michigan and then bashing Quinn because he's not yet won 3 Superbowls. The reference to the 3 SBs has nothing to do with Quinn. You are making an error in logic. I brought up the 3 SBs to compare Brady to Marino, Elway, Kelly, Montana etc.


Which big games this year did he wilt in? OSU, Michigan, LSU, USC.....


As for the rest of the nonsense about the offensive line, it hardly bears a response other than to say that you must be pretty stupid if you think anyone would intonate that a passer needed 6/8 seconds per throw.
And you must be pretty stupid to use the word intonate in this context. My point is that it was you who brought up the O-line argument as an excuse for Quinn's play. The great Qbs, like T Brady, don't need excuses.


But bving able to get out of your drop and set up, is a little different, no? But having watched so much non propoganda Irish football, you'd of course know this. I mean when teams shut down Darius Walker and Quinn had two possession types and no true deep threat out wide, allowing superior teams with superior defense to flood the LOS and force him to beat them when throwing 8 and 9 defenders at him.
Tom Brady had A Smith his first year, hardly the next OJ Simpson. He also did not have the greatest of WRs. Again, my point is that comparing Quinn to Brady is ridiculous.


Palmer and Quinn have similar physical attributes? Really? They're both white and play QB. That's about it. Palmer has a much bigger arm and very little ability to move the pocket and create plays with his feet, unlike Quinn.
By physical attributes, I mean, well physical attributes. I thought it was fairly clear what that meant. Quinn is 6 4" and 227 lbs. Palmer is 6 5" 230lbs.
Comparing their arm strengths are athletic skills, and yes, Palmer has a much stronger arm. Quinn's arm is more similar to say, Joey Harrington's.




Lest we not forget that you claimed Tom Brady was a better QB than Montana, Favre and Marino, which sort of destroys your credibility from the get-go.
If you think suggesting that Tom Brady will not go down as the best Qb ever, or even that Brady will be mentioned in the same vein as Montana, Marino or Favre, then I think it is your credibility on the line.
Stop. Take a deep breathe. I know it may hurt, but the fact is that T Brady has won 3 SBs and he's not even 30 years old, the age that most pro athletes, especially QBs, reach their prime.
You yourself have gone on to note the intangibles of QB play. There is no other Qb in the history of the game that possesses these with as much abundance as T Brady. The guy wins the big ones. He comes through in the clutch better than anyone before his time.

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 01:35 PM
Brady makes his own time? I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Tom Brady is pretty much a pocket passer and relies heavily on his O-Line to give him time to do what he does best...throw passes in the short to immediate areas.
Brady can slide and shuffle better than anyone. It can give him an extra 2-3 seconds. The only Qb I have ever seen with that kind of pocket presence was Marino. Marino also had the slide/shuffle but he got out of trouble mainly because of his release, which was the quickest ever.
And Tom Brady can do more than throw the short and intermediate pass. He's pretty deadly on the deep one's too.

Geforce
02-17-2007, 01:57 PM
Brady can slide and shuffle better than anyone. It can give him an extra 2-3 seconds. The only Qb I have ever seen with that kind of pocket presence was Marino. Marino also had the slide/shuffle but he got out of trouble mainly because of his release, which was the quickest ever.
And Tom Brady can do more than throw the short and intermediate pass. He's pretty deadly on the deep one's too.

Brady can slide and shuffle better than anyone? Now you're exaggerating. If Marino is the only QB you've seen with that kind of pocket presence, then you've never really saw Joe Montana and Dan Fouts play plus you really underestimate the pocket presence/awareness of Peyton Manning.

I didn't say he couldn't throw the deep pass, I said the short to intermediate is what he does best.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 04:54 PM
Glad to hear you're laughing because it sounds as though you need it. Maybe it will knock loose some of those cobwebs in your knoggin' cloggin' your reason on Quinn.

I didn't comapre Matt Leinart to Tom Brady. I never said Quinn was a bad Qb, I said he's no Tom Brady.

The reference to the 3 SBs has nothing to do with Quinn. You are making an error in logic. I brought up the 3 SBs to compare Brady to Marino, Elway, Kelly, Montana etc.

OSU, Michigan, LSU, USC.....


And you must be pretty stupid to use the word intonate in this context. My point is that it was you who brought up the O-line argument as an excuse for Quinn's play. The great Qbs, like T Brady, don't need excuses.


Tom Brady had A Smith his first year, hardly the next OJ Simpson. He also did not have the greatest of WRs. Again, my point is that comparing Quinn to Brady is ridiculous.


By physical attributes, I mean, well physical attributes. I thought it was fairly clear what that meant. Quinn is 6 4" and 227 lbs. Palmer is 6 5" 230lbs.
Comparing their arm strengths are athletic skills, and yes, Palmer has a much stronger arm. Quinn's arm is more similar to say, Joey Harrington's.




If you think suggesting that Tom Brady will not go down as the best Qb ever, or even that Brady will be mentioned in the same vein as Montana, Marino or Favre, then I think it is your credibility on the line.
Stop. Take a deep breathe. I know it may hurt, but the fact is that T Brady has won 3 SBs and he's not even 30 years old, the age that most pro athletes, especially QBs, reach their prime.
You yourself have gone on to note the intangibles of QB play. There is no other Qb in the history of the game that possesses these with as much abundance as T Brady. The guy wins the big ones. He comes through in the clutch better than anyone before his time.

Dude, arguing with you is pointless. You ignore facts, you add 2+2 and make 7. By your logic, Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB in history and Charles Haley is the best player to ever play. Your 'argument' is so confusing, you're failing to even understand the concept of what's been discussed.

jlfin
02-17-2007, 05:11 PM
\
Perhaps you're too old to suggest that I can't remember. Sorry Gramps but I do rememebr all those players in their prime. I'm also an avid collector of football video. To sugggest that Brady didn't carry his team, or more importantly to suggest that Montana, Kelly or Elway did is a farce. Denver, SF and Buffalo had a lot of talent on those teams. In case you already forgot, let me just list off a few of those names on those teams (and I won't even bother mentioning the Defenses, which were excellent in some cases): Clark, Rice, Craig, Rathman, T Davis, S Sharpe, T Thomas, A Reed....)

Let's see, you are 27. That means you were 3 yrs old during Marino's rookie year and age 4 during his record breaking year. You must have been an intellectual prodigy.
BTW, I'm 45 and probably in better shape than you. I'm a far cry from gramps. My kids are 12 and 16. Your rebuttal proves you don't remember Elway and Marino ( in their primes). T. Davis and S Sharpe played on Denver's SB teams at the end of Elways career. Elway carried his team to SB's (albeit losses) against the Giants and 49'ers when he was pretty much a one man team. Marino played early in his career with a poor defense and no runing game. Without Marino many of those mid to late 80's Dolphins teams would have probably been drafting in the top 10.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 05:15 PM
Let's see, you are 27. That means you were 3 yrs old during Marino's rookie year and age 4 during his record breaking year. You must have been an intellectual prodigy.
BTW, I'm 45 and probably in better shape than you. I'm a far cry from gramps. My kids are 12 and 16. Your rebuttal proves you don't remember Elway and Marino ( in their primes). T. Davis and S Sharpe played on Denver's SB teams at the end of Elways career. Elway carried his team to SB's (albeit losses) against the Giants and 49'ers when he was pretty much a one man team. Marino played early in his career with a poor defense and no runing game. Without Marino many of those mid to late 80's Dolphins teams would have probably been drafting in the top 10.

Come off it 'old timer'.......don't you realise he knows more than you and me put together?

We're arguing with a man who at age 3 was able to discern Marino's pocket abilities. I'm not sure I can keep up with that.

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 06:08 PM
Dude, arguing with you is pointless. You ignore facts, you add 2+2 and make 7. By your logic, Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB in history and Charles Haley is the best player to ever play. Your 'argument' is so confusing, you're failing to even understand the concept of what's been discussed.
:sleep:
Reading your drivel is making me sleepy.
By your logic, every team in the NFL save the Patriots and possibly the Colts should be ready to pull a Ditka and trade their entire draft to move up and take Quinn.

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 06:13 PM
Let's see, you are 27. That means you were 3 yrs old during Marino's rookie year and age 4 during his record breaking year. You must have been an intellectual prodigy.
BTW, I'm 45 and probably in better shape than you. I'm a far cry from gramps. My kids are 12 and 16. Your rebuttal proves you don't remember Elway and Marino ( in their primes). T. Davis and S Sharpe played on Denver's SB teams at the end of Elways career. Elway carried his team to SB's (albeit losses) against the Giants and 49'ers when he was pretty much a one man team. Marino played early in his career with a poor defense and no runing game. Without Marino many of those mid to late 80's Dolphins teams would have probably been drafting in the top 10.

:sidelol: :sidelol: First, ever hear of video? You should check it out. It's a wonderful technological advancement. I highly suggest you invest. That way you may be able to look at some old game film and refresh your memory when comparing Brady to the others.
Elway took several teams to the SB but don't tell me that he was the only reason. He was the principal reason, yes, but don't forget he didn't win until he had great talent around him.
And on the point of Marino, yes it may be sacriledge on this board, but he wasn't the greatest ever. He was a helluva' Qb, probably in the top 5 of all time, but he's not the best.

phinphanforever
02-17-2007, 06:15 PM
Come off it 'old timer'.......don't you realise he knows more than you and me put together?

We're arguing with a man who at age 3 was able to discern Marino's pocket abilities. I'm not sure I can keep up with that.
And you would have been 9. Incredible that a 9 year old would have that much insight. You must have been a precocious little fella'.
Sorry for asking, but what happened later on in your life to explain the disapointment?

jlfin
02-17-2007, 06:59 PM
:sidelol: :sidelol: First, ever hear of video? You should check it out. It's a wonderful technological advancement. I highly suggest you invest. That way you may be able to look at some old game film and refresh your memory when comparing Brady to the others.
Elway took several teams to the SB but don't tell me that he was the only reason. He was the principal reason, yes, but don't forget he didn't win until he had great talent around him.
And on the point of Marino, yes it may be sacriledge on this board, but he wasn't the greatest ever. He was a helluva' Qb, probably in the top 5 of all time, but he's not the best.


I don't have to watch videos, which are nothing more than highlights. You can dispense with the condescension and grow up. I actually watched the 16 game seasons unfold and I watched all of those aforementioned QB's in the regular season and the playoffs before you started grade school. Elway may not have won SB's early in his career, but he won plenty of games, as did Marino without much talent around him. Brady just isn't as physically gifted as those 2. He cannot carry a team with his arm. After winning their 1st SB, BB the following season tried to use Brady in that capacity, but he fell apart and the Pats missed the playoffs.
I'm not knocking Brady, but please don't compare him to guys like Marino and Elway.
Don't be upset because I gotcha on the T. Davis/ S Sharpe thing.

Boomer
02-17-2007, 07:14 PM
And you would have been 9. Incredible that a 9 year old would have that much insight. You must have been a precocious little fella'.
Sorry for asking, but what happened later on in your life to explain the disapointment?


Having been asked to scout for a former NFL scout and his publication, that precociousness worked in my favour, no?

wazzy
02-17-2007, 07:41 PM
Ok
Elway Marino and Manning our all better QB's then Tom Brady! With that said due to the success of Brady and the blind fold of fans that say he had nobody on his teams when he won championships he will be considered one of the best along with the rest if he keeps up his consistant play from now till the end of his career!

Austin Tatious
02-17-2007, 07:51 PM
I think if we have to trade up to get Quinn, we still should do it. This team is woefully short on playmakers. Sure, we need depth and have holes everywhere such that it would stink to lose picks. But I think that is a lesser evil than going another year w/o picking up a major building block at the quarterback position.

There are conflicting reports on Quinn, and he appears to have a legitimate weakness on his accuracy downfield. But the bottom line is that he should be a solid NFL quarterback. He has prototypical size and I am very comfortable with Cameron's ability to develop quarterbacks, knowing his experience with the likes of Jim Harbaugh, Gus Frerotte, Drew Brees and Philip Rivers. I think Quinn can certainly be the next in the line of his quarterback protégés.

Quinn may never be a Manning, Brees, or Brady. But then again maybe he will be (although more along the lines of a Brees or Brady rather than Peyton). But in my view, he should, at a minimum, be a solid NFL quarterback who can succeed on a good team with talent assembled around him, if not the type that can carry a team. He should at the very least be a guy that you can win with if you give him a supporting cast. These types of guys are hard to find. One way or another we will have to build around him with players who make plays.

Lastly, Quinn has the "it" factor and he can carry the burden of the being the face of the franchise.

I think at this point the Dolphins need to be aggressive and try to get him one way or another. This team is in an abysmal state right now, and we need an impact building block at quarterback. We need difference makers.

The bottom line is that we need a long range plan. We will need to draft other impact players in coming years. Drafting Brady Quinn is just the first step. We will still need to go get a big DT, OLB, corner, pass rusher, LT, wide receivers, kick returner, and tight end. This is not going to happen overnight. But if we play our cards correctly, in three years we could have a nucleus of breathtaking talent like the Chargers have accumulated. But it all stems from having a coherent plan of wisely drafting. Quick fixes in free agency are not going to do anything more than supplementing a nucleus built through wise drafting.

phinphanforever
02-18-2007, 10:50 AM
Having been asked to scout for a former NFL scout and his publication, that precociousness worked in my favour, no?
Am I still forbidden from responding to this post? Or does that warrant a ban?

Bruzer
02-18-2007, 10:57 AM
Boomer knows football more than most of us here and I agree with his assessment on quinn. As for responding to the post you can just don't do any personal attacks.

Crowder52
02-18-2007, 11:56 AM
Am I still forbidden from responding to this post? Or does that warrant a ban?

I posted last night in response to your ban and said "You'll learn that arguing with Boomer will get you banned on this site," but the mods deleted it and didn't give any reason why. I feel like I'm in Communist Russia with all this censoring.

Boomer
02-18-2007, 04:36 PM
Am I still forbidden from responding to this post? Or does that warrant a ban?


I had no idea that you were banned and if you were, that was wrong.

Boomer
02-18-2007, 04:37 PM
I posted last night in response to your ban and said "You'll learn that arguing with Boomer will get you banned on this site," but the mods deleted it and didn't give any reason why. I feel like I'm in Communist Russia with all this censoring.

Who gets banned when discussing things with me?

ckparrothead
02-18-2007, 06:36 PM
The only bright aspect about pointless debates like these is that it tends to bring out the best in various posters' work, though admittedly the worst in others'.

Sorry I couldn't get here sooner, Boomer...but you seem to have done a bang-up job!

phinphanforever
02-18-2007, 06:37 PM
Who gets banned when discussing things with me?
Apparently I do. The mods also took a bunch of my posts down and I am still puzzled as to why. I also noticed that they took some posts down from a guy that was following our argument who agreed with me rather than you.
It's pretty funny, really. I mean they decide what constitutes a personal attack - although it doesn't really adhere to what is posted in the rules - and will take your stuff down for no apparent rhyme or reason. When you try to challenge it(in a very reasonable fashion) they give you another warning.
I appreciate what a lot of guys are doing on this site to keep it up and running, and many of the people who make meaningful contributions, but some of these guys appear to go overboard.
Since when was disagreeing with someone on this site something that merited a ban? One of the better qualities of this site was that one could view a variety of opinions. If you chose to disagree you could either ignore or respond. But you had a choice.
Being banned for calling someone stupid or foolish is a little excessive.
I don't mind that some people have some pretty thin skin but at least they should be consistent in their approach to bans. There's a mod who has a signature that I am sure could be construed as being pretty offensive to many but somehow they are immune to the 'ban'.
I'm a believer in the site self-policing itself. Of course, if someone is clearly violating the rules then they merit a ban but disagreeing with someone, regardless who that person is, and getting a 'timeout' is pretty lame.

Boomer
02-18-2007, 06:41 PM
Apparently I do. The mods also took a bunch of my posts down and I am still puzzled as to why. I alos noticed that they took some posts down from a guy that was following our argument and actually agreed with me rather than you.
It's pretty funny, really. I mean they decide what constitutes a personal attack-although it doesn't really adhere to what someone has posted in the rules-and will take your stuff down for no apparent rhyme or reason. when you try to challenge it, in a very reasonable fashion, they give you another warning.
I appreciate what a lot of guys are doing on this site to keep it up and running but some of these guys appear to go overboard. Since when was disagreeing with someone on this site something that merited a ban? One of the better qulaities of this site was that one could view a variety of opinions. If you chose to disagree you could either ignore or respond. But you had a choice.
Being banned for calling someone stupid or foolish is a little excessive.
I don't mind that some people must some pretty thin skin but at least they should be consistent in their approach to bans. There's a mod who has a signature that I am sure could be contrued as being pretty offensive to many but somehow they are immune to the 'ban'.
I'm a believe in the site self-policing itself. Of course, if someone is clearly violating the rules then they merit a ban but disagreeing with someone, regardless who that person is, is pretty lame.

Well you shouldn't have. I don't recall anything you said being a personal attack. So we disagreed, it happens.

phinphanforever
02-18-2007, 06:51 PM
Well you shouldn't have. I don't recall anything you said being a personal attack. So we disagreed, it happens.
Cheers.
Back to the Quinn point, I suppose we agree to disagree. We obviously both believe strongly in our respective postions. To be clear though, I'm not suggesting that I can say with certainty that Quinn will be a total bust. I just don't think he will be the next Tom Brady. My point is really that Tom Brady is the best player I have ever seen (and again, we choose to disagree) since Lawrence Taylor. And unlike Talyor, whose skills and talent were so obvious on every down he played, Tom Brady's skills and talent are best appreciated on reflection, or on second viewing of a game. His greatest talents do not jump out at you. His poise, decision making, game management, and ability to conjer up some majic at the most appropriate time are uncanny. He has , what I assume people mean when they say the "it" factor. I just don't see it in Quinn.

Boomer
02-18-2007, 07:27 PM
Cheers.
Back to the Quinn point, I suppose we agree to disagree. We obviously both believe strongly in our respective postions. To be clear though, I'm not suggesting that I can say with certainty that Quinn will be a total bust. I just don't think he will be the next Tom Brady. My point is really that Tom Brady is the best player I have ever seen (and again, we choose to disagree) since Lawrence Taylor. And unlike Talyor, whose skills and talent were so obvious on every down he played, Tom Brady's skills and talent are best appreciated on reflection, or on second viewing of a game. His greatest talents do not jump out at you. His poise, decision making, game management, and ability to conjer up some majic at the most appropriate time are uncanny. He has , what I assume people mean when they say the "it" factor. I just don't see it in Quinn.

No worries. What I was saying was that I don't know if he'll become as good as Tom Brady. Unlikely, because frankly Tom is staggeringly good. I mean that. I love watching him. He's a clinician. But I think that Brady Quinn possesses the same skill set. In fact I think on an intangibles basis, in terms of arm strength, intelligence, moxie, etc. then they're very similar. I think Quinn is better at moving the pocket because he is more athletic and I think he does a better job of throwing on the move. Lest we forget that Tom's mentor is now Brady's mentor and that by the very nature of that last statement, they are bound to be similar. Hell, Quinn spent the summer with 4 years worth of Tom's passes on tape, studying how Tom ran the same plays as Notre Dame do out of the same sets.

I would disagree that Brady is the best player since LT. I'd certainly put Anthony Munoz, Barry Sanders and Jerry Rice as superior players. In fact, I don't even think Tom is the best player at his position in the NFL today. That honour, IMO, belongs to another clinician, Peyton Manning. But whichever point of view, Tom Brady is a hell of a player. And I think Brady Quinn'll be just fine.

jim1
02-18-2007, 09:16 PM
Cheers.
Back to the Quinn point, I suppose we agree to disagree. We obviously both believe strongly in our respective postions. To be clear though, I'm not suggesting that I can say with certainty that Quinn will be a total bust. I just don't think he will be the next Tom Brady. My point is really that Tom Brady is the best player I have ever seen (and again, we choose to disagree) since Lawrence Taylor. And unlike Talyor, whose skills and talent were so obvious on every down he played, Tom Brady's skills and talent are best appreciated on reflection, or on second viewing of a game. His greatest talents do not jump out at you. His poise, decision making, game management, and ability to conjer up some majic at the most appropriate time are uncanny. He has , what I assume people mean when they say the "it" factor. I just don't see it in Quinn.

Brady has definitely got it, I wonder if he will keep it. Model Bridget Moynahan is expecting Brady's child. If Brady marries Moynahan, he'll be an in-law of the one and only Rosie O'Donnell. That should cost the Pats 2 games a year, 3 if they play on Thanksgiving or Christmas. How Moynahan and O'Donnell can carry the same genes is beyond me.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/02/Bridget2520Moynahan2520pic1-1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sorenz.dk/Bridget%2520Moynahan%2520pic1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pride.hu/viewtopic.php%3Ftopic%3D1606%26forum%3D1&h=900&w=664&sz=70&tbnid=JRfIwXz0JIO2oM:&tbnh=146&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbridget%2Bmoynahan&start=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1) http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/02/06_15_05_brady800600-1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.boston.com/images/sports/patriots/2004/06_15_05_brady800600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extras/0405wallpaper/&h=600&w=800&sz=66&tbnid=a1TNnTSUKNq5hM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbridget%2Bmoynahan&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2) http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/02/brady_bridget-1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/brady_bridget.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page3/story%3Fpage%3Dmcintyre/041214&h=262&w=195&sz=19&tbnid=-Ym-u-jRkyI_wM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbridget%2Bmoynahan&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3)

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Music/9806/08/tonys.cnn/link.rosie.odonnell.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Music/9806/08/tonys.cnn/index.html&h=349&w=350&sz=32&tbnid=j3eIew9Cq4CgzM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drosie%2Bo-donnell%2Bphoto&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3) http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/02/6a8bfbf5fec281-1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://as.wn.com/i/4d/6a8bfbf5fec281.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/archive_2004_10.shtml&h=258&w=300&sz=15&tbnid=Ezfwrtz6rLiQ2M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drosie%2Bo-donnell%2Bphoto&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2)



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6483564?MSNHPHMA


Trivia

Has a tattoo on her inner-left ankle of a green moon and stars.
Said she once attacked an opposing team-member during a lacrosse game in high school with her lacrosse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse) stick.
Worked at Abdow's Big Boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdow%27s_Big_Boy&action=edit), a buffet-style restaurant, while attending high school to earn spending money.
She has stated she watches television "non-stop."
Is third cousin on her father's side to Rosie O'Donnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_O%27Donnell).
She last dated Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) from 2004-late 2006http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Moynahan

Regan21286
02-18-2007, 09:54 PM
Brady has definitely got it, I wonder if he will keep it. Model Bridget Moynahan is expecting Brady's baby. If Brady marries Moynahan, he'll be an in-law of the one and only Rosie O'Donnell. That should cost the Pats 2 games a year, 3 if they play on Thanksgiving or Christmas. How Moynahan and O'Donnell can carry the same genes is beyond me.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:JRfIwXz0JIO2oM:sorenz.dk/Bridget%2520Moynahan%2520pic1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sorenz.dk/Bridget%2520Moynahan%2520pic1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pride.hu/viewtopic.php%3Ftopic%3D1606%26forum%3D1&h=900&w=664&sz=70&tbnid=JRfIwXz0JIO2oM:&tbnh=146&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbridget%2Bmoynahan&start=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1) http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:a1TNnTSUKNq5hM:cache.boston.com/images/sports/patriots/2004/06_15_05_brady800600.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.boston.com/images/sports/patriots/2004/06_15_05_brady800600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extras/0405wallpaper/&h=600&w=800&sz=66&tbnid=a1TNnTSUKNq5hM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbridget%2Bmoynahan&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2) http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:-Ym-u-jRkyI_wM:espn-att.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/brady_bridget.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/brady_bridget.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page3/story%3Fpage%3Dmcintyre/041214&h=262&w=195&sz=19&tbnid=-Ym-u-jRkyI_wM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbridget%2Bmoynahan&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3)

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:j3eIew9Cq4CgzM:www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Music/9806/08/tonys.cnn/link.rosie.odonnell.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Music/9806/08/tonys.cnn/link.rosie.odonnell.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Music/9806/08/tonys.cnn/index.html&h=349&w=350&sz=32&tbnid=j3eIew9Cq4CgzM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drosie%2Bo-donnell%2Bphoto&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3) http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Ezfwrtz6rLiQ2M:as.wn.com/i/4d/6a8bfbf5fec281.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://as.wn.com/i/4d/6a8bfbf5fec281.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/archive_2004_10.shtml&h=258&w=300&sz=15&tbnid=Ezfwrtz6rLiQ2M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drosie%2Bo-donnell%2Bphoto&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2)



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6483564?MSNHPHMA


Trivia

Has a tattoo on her inner-left ankle of a green moon and stars.
Said she once attacked an opposing team-member during a lacrosse game in high school with her lacrosse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse) stick.
Worked at Abdow's Big Boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdow%27s_Big_Boy&action=edit), a buffet-style restaurant, while attending high school to earn spending money.
She has stated she watches television "non-stop."
Is third cousin on her father's side to Rosie O'Donnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_O%27Donnell).
She last dated Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) from 2004-late 2006http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Moynahan

A little too much info on Tom Brady. If being married to a celebrity or having any relationship with a celeb/pro player means they have "it", might as well say Brady Quinn's brother in law is AJ Hawk. Too bad we can't have both to complement the Zach Thomas/Jason Taylor in-law duos.

jim1
02-18-2007, 10:50 PM
A little too much info on Tom Brady. If being married to a celebrity or having any relationship with a celeb/pro player means they have "it", might as well say Brady Quinn's brother in law is AJ Hawk. Too bad we can't have both to complement the Zach Thomas/Jason Taylor in-law duos.

First of all, you misread it. Second of all, it was a tongue in cheek comment. *edit*.

The last sentence wasn't necessary. Keep it civil.

phinphanforever
02-19-2007, 12:45 AM
I have to confess a bias against quarterbacks. Over the years, there have been very few that I have been impressed with on a consistent basis. The position attracts more attention than any other in football, and probably in all of pro sports. The Qb gets, perhaps, more credit than deserved, and is often criticised too harshly. Tough gig. You're either the hero or the goat. But the reality in the NFL is that it is very unlikely you will win it all without a quality QB, and therein lies all the scrutiny.

There are many types of QBs and it is evident that there isn't one prototypical Qb required to win the SB. Manning is as different from Elway as is Ernie from Bert. A strong arm is obviously an asset but even the greatest arm isn't a guarantee for success. It's hard to describe, sort of like nailing jello to a tree, but it is the intangibles which are key to success. It is the intangibles which often separates the wheat from the chaff. It seems that you have it or you don't. And I should say 'having some' because even the intangibles can differ among Qbs.

Take Jim Kelly. Although he never won the big one you have to be imoressed with four consecutive appearances. Kelly didn't have the greatest of arms nor di he possess lightning speed. He also did make a quite a few mental errors but I've never seen a tougher QB. He was tough as rope. Make it nails.

Manning, who I never really liked, proved me wrong this year. Although the Colts didn't rely on him as much as they did in the past, Peyton played better down the stretch than he has in the past. His intangible is dogged determination. I don't think there is a better student of the game at this position. He studies film more effectively than any other QB.

Then there is phlegmatic Joe. Mr Cucumber. Cool hand Luke. When the pressure got higher, Montana got better. Montana may have been surrounded by a cast of venerable all stars, and future hall of famers, but it wasn't until the Iceman cometh that San Fransicso won the Lombardi.

Elway had the personna (some would say ego) but it made him and the others around him better. Young had a chip the size of Texas on his shoulder, and Aikman was resilliant.

Brady , in my opinion, has many of these qualities. He's the Golden Boy. The chosen one -or should I say the one not chosen until the 6th. He's got poise, competitiveness, toughness, and smarts. He's got it all.

Most of these guys also had incredible talent and skill but it was those intangibles that led them to championships. Again, it's hard to describe but they all had/have the "it" factor. And there have been very few over the years who have possessed "it".

There have been a lot of Qbs in the last 20 years who have, at one time or another, been thought to have possessed the "it" factor but only a handfull who actually did. In fact, several were believed to have had "it" but once people got a better look, they saw the "Sh" in front.

This bust factor is the primary culprit -or truth serum- for me having a bias against Qbs. Over the last 10 years I have quite frankly been down on every young QB with the exception of Palmer and Rivers. Of all the quarterbacks taken in that time, these were the only two that I felt possessed the elusive "it".

I have admittedly been very wrong on some like MCnair, Brees, and P Manning but the list of busts is far more populous. Couch, Akili Smith, D C-pep, Leaf, Vick, Joey, Carr, Boller, Losman and ROdgers have all fell short of expectations.
McNabb had a hand on 'it" but it has long disapeared. Alex Smith is a player I am becoming a believer in. I am a little doubtful of Palmer now, and I think Rivers' big test will come next year. Rothlesburger is close but I sometimes wonder.

I didn't think Young, Leinhart or Cutler possesed "it" but of course only time will tell.

For the Dolphins, the well has been running dry since Danny Boy took off the pads- actually, it was beginning to get dry even before he called it quits. Those years when Marino looked like the tin-man with all that metal around his lower body were a sad sight. Fielder, bless his big heart, would not have succeeded with all the intangibles in the world. He just didn't have the arm. Feeley definately didn't have "it", nor did Griese, Sage, Lucas, Huard or Gus. None of them had much talent either.

Which brings us to our current roster and my take on this year's draft. No need to go over Joey in too much detail. Nice guy but he's not starting material. DC has loads of talent but with his injury problems he has even less to compensate for the lack of the "it" factor. Call me crazy but I think Lemon is a better candidate to possibly have some of these intangibles than C-pep. I've been impressed with what I have seen but until he gets more playing time any judgements would be rash. And if Dc ever heals fully (apparently the latest reports are promising) I think his talent is so obvious the Phins will be forced to play him.

As far as this year's crop of Qbs , I'm having real difficulty seeing anyone succeed. Truthfully, I think Stanton may have the greatest possibility but he's definitely not worth the number 9. No reason to rehash why I'm not super high on Quinn. As for Russell, I would have really liked to have seen him stay for his senior year.

At the end of the day, I could be very wrong on this year's crop. As I said before, I was dead wrong in the past. But if I'm in charge of selecting the next player at this year's draft and Quinn is still on the board, I would be trying very hard to unload the pick for more first day picks.

Geforce
02-19-2007, 01:08 AM
This bust factor is the primary culprit -or truth serum- for me having a bias against Qbs. Over the last 10 years I have quite frankly been down on every young QB with the exception of Palmer and Rivers. Of all the quarterbacks taken in that time, these were the only two that I felt possessed the elusive "it".

I have admittedly been very wrong on some like MCnair, Brees, and P Manning but the list of busts is far more populous. Couch, Akili Smith, D C-pep, Leaf, Vick, Joey, Carr, Boller, Losman and ROdgers have all fell short of expectations.


How can you possibly put C-Pep in with Tim Couch, Akili Smith and Ryan Leaf. Non of these QB have ever led their teams to anything not to mention even sniffed the Pro Bowl. Daunte has been to the Pro Bowl 3 times and had one of the best season's ever for a QB. Granted his last two seasons has be a dissapointment but he is far from being a bust.

Boomer
02-19-2007, 05:52 AM
I can't see how Culpepper, a 3 time Pro Bowler, a runner up in the league MVP award, who's thrown 137 career touchdowns, could ever be called a bust. Similarly, JP Losman quite clearly is starting to develop very nicely in Buffalo. He and Lee evans work well together, he finally has a LT he can trust and his play has improved markedly. And calling Aaron Rodgers a bust because he's had to sit behind one of the great QB's of all time is a little unfair.

The Samurai
02-19-2007, 07:38 AM
Any QB you take in the draft is a risk. There is no way of telling which ones will be good and which ones wont.

phinphanforever
02-19-2007, 09:13 AM
I can't see how Culpepper, a 3 time Pro Bowler, a runner up in the league MVP award, who's thrown 137 career touchdowns, could ever be called a bust. Similarly, JP Losman quite clearly is starting to develop very nicely in Buffalo. He and Lee evans work well together, he finally has a LT he can trust and his play has improved markedly. And calling Aaron Rodgers a bust because he's had to sit behind one of the great QB's of all time is a little unfair.
Fair enoguh on C-pep. Bust is definitely too strong. But I don't feel that Daunte, Losman or Rodgers have what it takes to go all the way. Possibly DC, if he returns to full health and gets a lot of help. Losman, IMO, is not that great. It's true he made improvements but he's still got a long ways to go. Rodgers has been stuck behind Favre but in the limited film that I have seen on him I have not been overly impressed. For a guy that at one point was a sure thing number 1, he dropped significantly. He will be limited by his arm, above everything else.

phinphanforever
02-19-2007, 09:16 AM
Any QB you take in the draft is a risk. There is no way of telling which ones will be good and which ones wont.
There is some truth in that statment. I wouldn't go so far as to say there is "no way of telling" but it can appear to be a lottery at times. Which brings me to the point of this year's draft. I'm not sold on Quinn, at least not for a ninth pick. I'd rather see the dolphins fill other holes.

Boomer
02-19-2007, 09:27 AM
Rodgers has been stuck behind Favre but in the limited film that I have seen on him I have not been overly impressed. For a guy that at one point was a sure thing number 1, he dropped significantly. He will be limited by his arm, above everything else.


Limited by his arm?? Rodgers has a gun, mate. His arm strength is excellent.

jim1
02-19-2007, 10:31 AM
Did I get another post deleted?

This is getting rather Orwellian, wouldn't you say?

phinphanforever
02-19-2007, 03:45 PM
Limited by his arm?? Rodgers has a gun, mate. His arm strength is excellent.
By his arm I meant accuracy and strength. Coming out of college, he undoubtedly had the strongest arm. People said it was better than Smith's , as far as strength. However, I do recall reading recent reports out of G Bay are that the arm was not as strong as once thought. He does have other problems (decison making, throwing on the run) but people are now questioning his, once beieved to be, his best asset.
I'd be very surprised if Rodgers amounts to much in the NFL.

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 03:59 PM
Fair enoguh on C-pep. Bust is definitely too strong. But I don't feel that Daunte, Losman or Rodgers have what it takes to go all the way. Possibly DC, if he returns to full health and gets a lot of help. Losman, IMO, is not that great. It's true he made improvements but he's still got a long ways to go. Rodgers has been stuck behind Favre but in the limited film that I have seen on him I have not been overly impressed. For a guy that at one point was a sure thing number 1, he dropped significantly. He will be limited by his arm, above everything else.

I don't see how any conclusions could possibly be made about Aaron Rodgers, that were not already made about him coming out of the draft.

People said that the "limited" film on Phil Rivers while he was stuck behind Brees was unimpressive...and in the end the only thing that was unimpressive was those peoples' "limited" intelligence. Mind you, I'm not saying the same about you, I'm just saying it would be well to keep past mistakes by others in mind when making certain assumptions.

I'm still waiting to see more on Losman...he had a year that surprised the heck out of me and I was sure coming out of the draft that Losman was never going to have sustained success. He could, of course, prove me wrong by simply sustaining the success he had in 2006.

emocomputerjock
02-19-2007, 04:09 PM
I don't see how any conclusions could possibly be made about Aaron Rodgers, that were not already made about him coming out of the draft.

People said that the "limited" film on Phil Rivers while he was stuck behind Brees was unimpressive...and in the end the only thing that was unimpressive was those peoples' "limited" intelligence. Mind you, I'm not saying the same about you, I'm just saying it would be well to keep past mistakes by others in mind when making certain assumptions.

I'm still waiting to see more on Losman...he had a year that surprised the heck out of me and I was sure coming out of the draft that Losman was never going to have sustained success. He could, of course, prove me wrong by simply sustaining the success he had in 2006.

CK, I remember a report coming out around midseason that was about offenses simplifying their schemes somewhat for the younger quarterbacks, and Losman and Alex Smith were among those mentioned. Is there any truth to the report, or is it more of a case of better teammates?

phinphanforever
02-19-2007, 04:32 PM
I don't see how any conclusions could possibly be made about Aaron Rodgers, that were not already made about him coming out of the draft.

People said that the "limited" film on Phil Rivers while he was stuck behind Brees was unimpressive...and in the end the only thing that was unimpressive was those peoples' "limited" intelligence. Mind you, I'm not saying the same about you, I'm just saying it would be well to keep past mistakes by others in mind when making certain assumptions.

I'm still waiting to see more on Losman...he had a year that surprised the heck out of me and I was sure coming out of the draft that Losman was never going to have sustained success. He could, of course, prove me wrong by simply sustaining the success he had in 2006.

There is some truth to your point about Rodgers not having played enough to have a proper assessment, or at least one that differs from the assement in college, however, rememeber that the speed of the game is significantly different form the college to the pros. I rememebr reading some reports (sorry can't find the links after a cursory scan) indicating that the Packers front office was less than pleased with Rodgers progress last off-season.

As for Losman, he did have some quality games lasy year but I'm not sold on him. He takes too many sacks and fumbles too much.
He's defintiely better than the year before but I doubt that he's the answer for Buffalo.

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 04:58 PM
CK, I remember a report coming out around midseason that was about offenses simplifying their schemes somewhat for the younger quarterbacks, and Losman and Alex Smith were among those mentioned. Is there any truth to the report, or is it more of a case of better teammates?

I don't remember hearing that but it makes sense. Both Alex Smith and JP Losman are very smart guys...but this early in their careers it would be unwise to give them too much to think about on the field until they were ready for it.

Regan21286
02-19-2007, 05:58 PM
I can't see how Culpepper, a 3 time Pro Bowler, a runner up in the league MVP award, who's thrown 137 career touchdowns, could ever be called a bust. Similarly, JP Losman quite clearly is starting to develop very nicely in Buffalo. He and Lee evans work well together, he finally has a LT he can trust and his play has improved markedly. And calling Aaron Rodgers a bust because he's had to sit behind one of the great QB's of all time is a little unfair.

Culpepper may be a bust so far for us, but career-wise he isn't. But this is a what have you done for me lately league so Culpepper is currently in the doghouse.