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View Full Version : Russsell is better than Quinn



Captain Lou
02-19-2007, 04:29 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

HybridPHIN 23
02-19-2007, 04:32 PM
it's about how he projects as a pro......... he projects well.

tylerdolphin
02-19-2007, 04:35 PM
I think this belongs in the draft forum

TotoreMexico
02-19-2007, 04:35 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

Draft forum

The same can be said about P. Manning, ohhh wait, he just won the SB

Motion
02-19-2007, 04:40 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

What kinda logic is that?

Shall we compare LSU's Defense with ND's?

Supporting cast plays a big factor.

TakeIt2DaHouse
02-19-2007, 04:41 PM
how many big games did peyton manning win at tennessee??? quinn is the man, great lets draft another daunte culpepper when we already have a one perfect

DonShula84
02-19-2007, 04:41 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:


:lol:

Such a stupid stupid reason to think Russell is better. Russell played against NDs defense, Quinn played against LSU's defense. LSU's defense > ND's defense. It's like night and day to compare the two defenses.

Look at Russell's stats in big SEC games, he wasnt exactly lights out against top competition.

montrealfinfan
02-19-2007, 04:42 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

It takes a team to win a bowl game, not one player. LSU was a better team end of story in ND had a good defense they wouldn't have put up that many points.

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 04:42 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

And if you watched Joey Harrington face Tom Brady head to head in the second Miami-NE matchup of the season, you would say the same about Harrington over Brady.

But that is why it is, quite frankly, stupid to trust in QB-vs-QB individual game matchups, and even more stupid to judge a quarterback based on one game.

NJFINSFAN1
02-19-2007, 04:42 PM
AJ Feeley beat Brady, lets get him back!:shakeno:

badfoot
02-19-2007, 04:45 PM
I suppose leaf was better than manning too?..lol

Captain Lou
02-19-2007, 04:46 PM
Draft forum

The same can be said about P. Manning, ohhh wait, he just won the SB


Brady Quinn isn't even in the same catagory as Peyton. Quinn plays a weak as schedule, and didn't beat any of the good team they did manage to play. Peyton placed in the SEC. He won big games, he just didn't beat FLORIDA. I think you may be mentally ill you think Quinn will amount to half as much as Peyton at the NFL level. It's really a moot point anyways because we won't be drafting him.

DonShula84
02-19-2007, 04:48 PM
Brady Quinn isn't even in the same catagory as Peyton. Quinn plays a weak as schedule, and didn't beat any of the good team they did manage to play. Peyton placed in the SEC. He won big games, he just didn't beat FLORIDA. I think you may be mentally ill you think Quinn will amount to half as much as Peyton at the NFL level. It's really a moot point anyways because we won't be drafting him.

Where did he even imply that he felt that?

jlfin
02-19-2007, 04:52 PM
What kinda logic is that?

Shall we compare LSU's Defense with ND's?

Supporting cast plays a big factor.

Logic is irrelevant with some of the posters on this forum

Irish Phin Fan
02-19-2007, 04:54 PM
Brady Quinn isn't even in the same catagory as Peyton. Quinn plays a weak as schedule, and didn't beat any of the good team they did manage to play. Peyton placed in the SEC. He won big games, he just didn't beat FLORIDA. I think you may be mentally ill you think Quinn will amount to half as much as Peyton at the NFL level. It's really a moot point anyways because we won't be drafting him.

I don't recall him saying anything comparing Manning to Quinn. Think before you type.

jlfin
02-19-2007, 04:54 PM
Brady Quinn isn't even in the same catagory as Peyton. Quinn plays a weak as schedule, and didn't beat any of the good team they did manage to play. Peyton placed in the SEC. He won big games, he just didn't beat FLORIDA. I think you may be mentally ill you think Quinn will amount to half as much as Peyton at the NFL level. It's really a moot point anyways because we won't be drafting him.


No offense, but I will place my trust in Mueller and Cameron to make the right decision.

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 04:54 PM
So with that rationale... we will be just fine with brady so long as our defense is better than the other teams defense and we don't have to put up significant points.

All these pro quinn posts remind me of all the pro harrington posts I read all year. Any excuse we can find to shed blame for anything off quinn is what we get to read.

Hopefully, if we get quinn.. we start playing army, navy, airforce and stanford cuz those are the only games quinn shows up for.

He's tapped out. How much better can he get. Many other qb's have much higher ceilings than quinn.

Most of the ppl on here who aren't in love with quinn hear that line all the time.
you can't judge quinn by one game. We're not. Any game he wasn't supposed to win he didn't. He beats up on the garbage teams, and loses to everyone else.

Draft another need with your #9 pick. get a qb in later rounds, FA or next years draft class, which is said to be better than this years anyway.

Stitches
02-19-2007, 04:54 PM
Logic is irrelevant with some of the posters on this forum

You're not kidding. Too bad, I kind desire to see it in threads. That's one reason why this one isn't worthwhile.

Captain Lou
02-19-2007, 04:56 PM
:rolleyes:
And if you watched Joey Harrington face Tom Brady head to head in the second Miami-NE matchup of the season, you would say the same about Harrington over Brady.

But that is why it is, quite frankly, stupid to trust in QB-vs-QB individual game matchups, and even more stupid to judge a quarterback based on one game.


If you understood the context of my comments you would realize it was a generalized statement about his career. BTW Jamarcus Russell will be drafted ahead of him, but not because he's better. The bottom line drafting a qb is a crap shoot. However, my analysis of Quinn is based on his performance against teams with speed on defense. He hasn't faired well, but the defensive speed in the NFL is much slower than at the collegate level. Oh wait it's the other way around. :rolleyes2

sabansuxithard
02-19-2007, 04:59 PM
And if you watched Joey Harrington face Tom Brady head to head in the second Miami-NE matchup of the season, you would say the same about Harrington over Brady.

But that is why it is, quite frankly, stupid to trust in QB-vs-QB individual game matchups, and even more stupid to judge a quarterback based on one game.

Thank you CK!! By the way, what are your thoughts on Brady Quinn, i.e. how do you think he'll do in the nfl? I know he has pretty much all the physical stuff you look for in a qb (strong arm, tall, pretty good accuracy), the knock on him seems to be his mental / psychologica attributes. As you are probably the wisest football guru on this board (hey, its not sucking up if you are simply stating a fact), I was wondering if you could bless us with your perspective concerning this matter.

Motion
02-19-2007, 05:00 PM
:rolleyes:


If you understood the context of my comments you would realize it was a generalized statement about his career. BTW Jamarcus Russell will be drafted ahead of him, but not because he's better. The bottom line drafting a qb is a crap shoot. However, my analysis of Quinn is based on his performance against teams with speed on defense. He hasn't faired well, but the defensive speed in the NFL is much slower than at the collegate level. Oh wait it's the other way around. :rolleyes2

And you honestly think the talent level of his Oline and WRs don't contribute to those struggles?

Captain Lou
02-19-2007, 05:00 PM
Where did he even imply that he felt that?

He made a comparison between the two. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

NJFINSFAN1
02-19-2007, 05:03 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/02/Horse_with_blinders_small-1.jpg

Captain Lou
02-19-2007, 05:04 PM
And you honestly think the talent level of his Oline and WRs don't contribute to those struggles?


Why does everyone have excuses for a qb's failures. Great qbs are great thinkers and cool under preasure. He hasn't shown that. He has the skills but, IMO not the composure.

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 05:08 PM
quote:
And you honestly think the talent level of his Oline and WRs don't contribute to those struggles?


So now, not only does our defense have to be lightyears better than the opposition, but we have to have a probowl OLINE and probowl WR's for quinn to be successful.


why is it so hard to see that quinn has been slightly above average his whole career.

Does he have tools. Is he smart. Is he mobile. YES HE IS.

Is he a winner. That is the question.

You don't hear any arguments about his oline or WR when they are mauling north carolina or stanford or army.
He doesn't produce a W against big teams.

Does it fall on his shoulders... yes he's the qb thats just the way life goes.

DonShula84
02-19-2007, 05:09 PM
He made a comparison between the two. It doesn't get any clearer than that.


No. He brought up Manning not winning big games, he didnt compare their skill level which is completely different. That was clear to everyone but you apparently.

Stitches
02-19-2007, 05:10 PM
quote:
And you honestly think the talent level of his Oline and WRs don't contribute to those struggles?


So now, not only does our defense have to be lightyears better than the opposition, but we have to have a probowl OLINE and probowl WR's for quinn to be successful.


why is it so hard to see that quinn has been slightly above average his whole career.

Does he have tools. Is he smart. Is he mobile. YES HE IS.

Is he a winner. That is the question.

You don't hear any arguments about his oline or WR when they are mauling north carolina or stanford or army.
He doesn't produce a W against big teams.

Does it fall on his shoulders... yes he's the qb thats just the way life goes.

Hey, Ken Dorsey was a winner, let's trade our 1st pick to the Browns for him. his defense, Oline, and position players played no part in Miami getting victoreis. :rolleyes2

Motion
02-19-2007, 05:10 PM
quote:
And you honestly think the talent level of his Oline and WRs don't contribute to those struggles?


So now, not only does our defense have to be lightyears better than the opposition, but we have to have a probowl OLINE and probowl WR's for quinn to be successful.




Yes, thats exactly what I meant. :rolleyes2

Why am I even in this debate? I forgot how many NFL quality talent scouts we had here.

NJFINSFAN1
02-19-2007, 05:10 PM
quote:
And you honestly think the talent level of his Oline and WRs don't contribute to those struggles?


So now, not only does our defense have to be lightyears better than the opposition, but we have to have a probowl OLINE and probowl WR's for quinn to be successful.


why is it so hard to see that quinn has been slightly above average his whole career.

Does he have tools. Is he smart. Is he mobile. YES HE IS.

Is he a winner. That is the question.

You don't hear any arguments about his oline or WR when they are mauling north carolina or stanford or army.
He doesn't produce a W against big teams.

Does it fall on his shoulders... yes he's the qb thats just the way life goes.

Was Brady a winner at Michigan???

biggfish72
02-19-2007, 05:16 PM
dont matter eigther one can get the job done, dats what we need 4 a qb

Captain Lou
02-19-2007, 05:16 PM
No. He brought up Manning not winning big games, he didnt compare their skill level which is completely different. That was clear to everyone but you apparently.

If their skills aren't even comparable why would we consider drafting him ?

DonShula84
02-19-2007, 05:18 PM
If their skills aren't even comparable why would we consider drafting him ?


Manning is a hall of famer and one of the greatest ever. Quinn can not be as good as Manning, and still be a Pro Bowl player.

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 05:18 PM
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.

NJFINSFAN1
02-19-2007, 05:20 PM
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.


The bold is what people said about Brady.

Stitches
02-19-2007, 05:23 PM
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.

Maybe you should watch the 2005 game against USC, to see if Brady Quinn can overcome adverse conditions. And it sure looks like he is a pretty good scrambler when put under pressure. There is a difference between being under pressure, and having no chance at all to thro the ball.

DonShula84
02-19-2007, 05:27 PM
Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

Not even close. Quinn won more games in his last 2 years than his first.


I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured

I'm not sure how you define adverse conditions but rallying his team to victories when losing with under 2 minutes left against Stanford and UCLA shows something. You may not respect Stanford and UCLA as opponents, but down with under 2 minutes left a lot of people would just quit. Orchestrating the largest comeback in school history against MSU is impressive, even if again you dont respect them.

When the other team is far more talented than you are, your odds arent very good. One player, unless he's Jesus, isnt going to take a decent team against great teams and beat them.

He doesnt need a great great team around him to have a chance against better teams (look at USC game last year). He just needs a team that is comparable to the other team, or at the least a defense that wont give up 40 to every good offense they face. No QB should be asked to be perfect in order for his team to win, but that's the pressure ND places on Quinn when they face teams in the top 15 or so.

I mean you think Tom Brady wins those super bowls with a horrible defense helping him out? No, it takes a team, not one player.

PhinstiGator
02-19-2007, 05:29 PM
Quinn is certainly not above criticism...


The problem is, his performance, mainly against ranked teams, does not merit the first overall selection. His season numbers were good, 289 completions on 467 attempts with 3,426 yards and 37 TD's to only 7 INTs, however all you have to do is breakdown Quinn's numbers versus the cupcakes and the elites and you'll see how he struggles against good teams and pressure. His numbers against Michigan, USC, and LSU were a combined 61-128 for 656 yards with 8 TD's and 5 INTs. That some drop off. Only a 47.7 completion percentage against those elite teams! Now versus the cupcakes it's the numbers you would expect from Quinn with 228-339 with 2,770 yards with 29 TDs and 2 INTs. That's some stat line. The only problem is it was against the Army's, Stanford's, and Air Force's of the college football world. Now let me just get one thing straight here. I do feel Quinn is a first round pick who is guaranteed to be a solid pro, but if you are looking for a franchise quarterback to lead a bad team back to the playoffs Quinn is not your man.

http://www.gbnreport.com/scoutsnotebook.htm

On the day of the big game, Russell came out...surprising enough...the better QB.

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2413fanphins http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061816732#post1061816732)
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.

Maybe you should watch the 2005 game against USC, to see if Brady Quinn can overcome adverse conditions. And it sure looks like he is a pretty good scrambler when put under pressure. There is a difference between being under pressure, and having no chance at all to thro the ball.




IT has been said that you can't judge brady quinn by one game. That is the argument his supporters give, and now you want me to judge him off this one game two years ago. I remember the game for the record, but I remember many others as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 2413fanphins http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061816732#post1061816732)
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.


The bold is what people said about Brady.


It is actually a great thing that you brought this up. the bold is what they said about brady. Remind me again what round tom brady was selected in??

NJFINSFAN1
02-19-2007, 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2413fanphins http://images.finheaven.com/forums/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061816732#post1061816732)
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.

Maybe you should watch the 2005 game against USC, to see if Brady Quinn can overcome adverse conditions. And it sure looks like he is a pretty good scrambler when put under pressure. There is a difference between being under pressure, and having no chance at all to thro the ball.




IT has been said that you can't judge brady quinn by one game. That is the argument his supporters give, and now you want me to judge him off this one game two years ago. I remember the game for the record, but I remember many others as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 2413fanphins http://images.finheaven.com/forums/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061816732#post1061816732)
Brady quinn is a four year starter. I don't know what brady was at michigan but maybe somebody does.

Quinn has four years experience, I know weiss wasn't there the whole time, but I think they had there best record in years under willingham anyway, so enough about weiss. I realize his pro-system argument and I haven't argued that fact.

I argue the fact that quinn has showed me nothing when faced with adverse conditions. He has shown me that he can't overcome a better defense. He has shown me that he can't overcome being pressured.

He has shown me that we damn well better have amazing, and I mean AMAZING talent at every offensive position or he is going to struggle.
this is not my idea of a franchise qb. We aren't always going to have the best of the best at every key position.


The bold is what people said about Brady.


It is actually a great thing that you brought this up. the bold is what they said about brady. Remind me again what round tom brady was selected in??

They were wrong, just like they are now with Quinn dropping.

Russell will be a bust of all busts, while Quinn just keeps winning.

And for the record, I hate Notre Dame.

jim1
02-19-2007, 05:33 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

It seems that QB ratings have been all over the place the last few years- Aaron Rodgers free falling from projected #1, Jay Cutler, the Vince Young debate, Matt Leinert. PFT claims that Jamarcus Russell might actually be a 3rd round talent. You be the judge:


RUSSELL TO ROUND THREE?
It's highly unlikely that LSU quarterback JaMarcus Russell will drop out of the upper reaches of the NFL draft. But some league insiders regard Russell as a guy who should be taken in the third round of the draft.
Prior to the Sugar Bowl, Russell wasn't widely regarded as a top-five pick. Since shredding the Irish, however, most have presumed that Russell should be the first guy off of the board.
As we've previously written, some scouts regard Russell as another Byron Leftwich: Big arm, limited mobility.
But as we've seen time and again, even if 31 teams don't view a guy as a first-rounder, all it takes is one to say "yes".


http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 05:37 PM
Good... if they're wrong we won't have to waste our first pick on quinn.
we can get him in a later round.

which has been my point... he isn't worth a top ten pick.

daniel3
02-19-2007, 05:52 PM
The bold is what people said about Brady.

No it wasn't and will you quit with the Brady comparisons. You're better off switching to Manning comparisons, but Manning still showed more upside than Quinn coming out of college.

kashbo
02-19-2007, 05:54 PM
oh yeah he is way better quinn is overrated

Pompy
02-19-2007, 06:14 PM
POSTED 9:24 p.m. EST; UPDATED 9:58 p.m. EST, February 18, 2007
RUSSELL TO ROUND THREE?
It's highly unlikely that LSU quarterback JaMarcus Russell will drop out of the upper reaches of the NFL draft. But some league insiders regard Russell as a guy who should be taken in the third round of the draft.
Prior to the Sugar Bowl, Russell wasn't widely regarded as a top-five pick. Since shredding the Irish, however, most have presumed that Russell should be the first guy off of the board.
As we've previously written, some scouts regard Russell as another Byron Leftwich: Big arm, limited mobility.
But as we've seen time and again, even if 31 teams don't view a guy as a first-rounder, all it takes is one to say "yes".

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 06:14 PM
Quinn is certainly not above criticism...



http://www.gbnreport.com/scoutsnotebook.htm

On the day of the big game, Russell came out...surprising enough...the better QB.

Talk about a short-sighted argument...not something I typically have come to expect out of GBN Report.

They basically took a look at the three most uncompetitive games that Notre Dame played as a team over the last two years, and put the magnifying glass on those three performances.

What would that look like if you did the same for Matt Leinart? Or Jay Cutler? Jamarcus Russell?

Let's take a look at Jamarcus Russell vs. Auburn and Florida in 2006 and Georgia in 2005. These constitute the three most uncompetitive games that LSU has played over the time period.

Russell would be 55 of 95, 617 yards, 1 TD, and 4 INTs.

Gee, this is fun. Gotta love tailor-fitting together players' worst games and then magnifying their significance...

kashbo
02-19-2007, 06:17 PM
I wish russel will drop to us

TotoreMexico
02-19-2007, 06:38 PM
Brady Quinn isn't even in the same catagory as Peyton. Quinn plays a weak as schedule, and didn't beat any of the good team they did manage to play. Peyton placed in the SEC. He won big games, he just didn't beat FLORIDA. I think you may be mentally ill you think Quinn will amount to half as much as Peyton at the NFL level. It's really a moot point anyways because we won't be drafting him.

Where did I say he was the next P. Manning? There were some stupid people that said P. Manning sucked because he didn't won big games:rolleyes:

Think before you post

Killer308
02-19-2007, 06:38 PM
I don't why everybody is so against Quinn with our 1st rnd pick. Do you think that we have a franchise QB? Hell no! We are the laughing stock of the NFL when it comes to getting everybody elses scrap's. (QB)

Draft Quinn at #9

duss12
02-19-2007, 06:43 PM
Jamarcus Russel makes leftwich look fast

iamKIP
02-19-2007, 06:46 PM
Russell = Vick, or Leaf or Shuler.... ALL DUMB QB's who failed in the NFL. :shakeno:

Quinn = Potential Brady... Or any other NFL proto type QB... He is a smart player who can learn offenses and read defenses!!!!:ninja:

Lets get us a proto type NFL QB... Not just an athlete!!

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 06:48 PM
Jamarcus Russel makes leftwich look fast

Sorry man, but it just isn't true. The guy has run a 4.70 before at 6'6" and 250+ pounds. He's gained 497 yards running the ball over the past two years. He did that on 77 carries...or 6.5 yards per carry.

Just because the guy doesn't react well to pressure inside the pocket, that doesn't mean he's not a guy that moves really well. He moves EXTREMELY well for that size especially on designed movement.

LarryFinFan
02-19-2007, 06:55 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:


It's all about when we have the opportunity to draft....If we trade up and can get to Russell, well that's fine but something I would not do. The consensus is that Brady may be available without us trading up. The other factor, besides finding a trade-up partner, is at what cost would it be for us to get high enough to get Russell. I think all the draftniks have Russell projecting better than Quinn, so your revelation is moot. To say that Quinn isn't worthy of a top 10 pick isn't the smartest point either. The individual workouts will tel the tape on him (and Russell). As a QB and given Brady's exposure to a true pro-style offense...he's certainly worthy of a top 10 pick. I wouldn't trade up for him though under any circumstance and that's just because we still have DC pending his recovery from the knee...

Alien
02-19-2007, 07:05 PM
Talk about a short-sighted argument...not something I typically have come to expect out of GBN Report.

They basically took a look at the three most uncompetitive games that Notre Dame played as a team over the last two years, and put the magnifying glass on those three performances.

What would that look like if you did the same for Matt Leinart? Or Jay Cutler? Jamarcus Russell?

Let's take a look at Jamarcus Russell vs. Auburn and Florida in 2006 and Georgia in 2005. These constitute the three most uncompetitive games that LSU has played over the time period.

Russell would be 55 of 95, 617 yards, 1 TD, and 4 INTs.

Gee, this is fun. Gotta love tailor-fitting together players' worst games and then magnifying their significance...
thanks for writing that haha, i was about to say something similar but i cant back stuff up with the stats like you... all hail ck! haha:lol:
seriously though if you take russels CAREER vs quinn's CAREER isnt it clear that quinn had the better one? and yes... good quarterbacks can struggle against good defenses, thats why those defenses ARE GOOD! you cant tell me that you didnt see a winner when quinn was playing his heart out against usc a while back, and what has russel done to qualify himself as a winner? one bowl game against the other great qb of the draft? lsu has been better than notre dame for awhile and russel has enjoyed the talent around him. I just dont get the automatic judgement that russel is a winner and quinn isnt.

and whats all this about russel having SO MUCH upside and quinn being maxed out? that doesnt even make sense that hes MAXED OUT! hes going to get to the nfl, get strength and speed training and quinn is already an above average athlete for his position and hes gonna be better than before athletically(sp... i know i had a brain fart). Are you implying that he's maxed out mentally or something then? Wow... a smart kid coming from a big school being taught a complicated pro-style offense under the former SUPERBOWL CHAMPION Charlie Weis being thought to be mentally MAXED out for the nfl...:rolleyes2 (hes in his early twenties NOT forties!)

PhinstiGator
02-19-2007, 07:22 PM
Talk about a short-sighted argument...not something I typically have come to expect out of GBN Report.

They basically took a look at the three most uncompetitive games that Notre Dame played as a team over the last two years, and put the magnifying glass on those three performances.

That's not uncommon. A scout should place the highest weight vs a team that would most resemble an NFL defense.


What would that look like if you did the same for Matt Leinart? Or Jay Cutler? Jamarcus Russell?

Let's take a look at Jamarcus Russell vs. Auburn and Florida in 2006 and Georgia in 2005. These constitute the three most uncompetitive games that LSU has played over the time period.

Russell would be 55 of 95, 617 yards, 1 TD, and 4 INTs.
...

Yes, but you had to go to 2005 to find that 3rd bad game. Obviously, Russell has shot up the board based on his final performance in relation to Quinn's final performance. But, even in his bad games...Russell still has a healthy completion percentage.

Quinn is a victom of higher expectations. The scouts have to project him to the NFL game where players are bigger and faster. To see his completion percentage take that type of dive against bigger, faster teams does send up a red flag. Though their conclusion seems skewed...their is a valid concern buried in there.

Lab3003
02-19-2007, 07:23 PM
If you watched the 2 qbs matched head to head in their bowl game Brady looked lost out there against LSU's defense. Jamarcus Russell looked much better. I wouldn't waste our first round pick on Brady. He isnt worth it. How many big games did he win at Notre Dame ? Don't even say Michigan State because they aren't good enough to be called even a quality win. :rolleyes:

Who did Dan Marino beat?

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 07:39 PM
That's not uncommon. A scout should place the highest weight vs a team that would most resemble an NFL defense.

That's not necessarily true for a quarterback at all. Pressure is pressure and open is open. If you're Jay Cutler and your offensive line can't block even the meanest of SEC defensive lines that don't really resemble pro defensive lines at all, the pressure is still the pressure and what you do in the face of that pressure is about what you can expect under that much pressure in the NFL.

In the case of Quinn in picking out those three games, they are Notre Dame's most uncompetitive games in the last two years. Those aren't NFL conditions. In the NFL, general perception is that parity will help you stay competitive. In the NFL, you aren't necessarily expected to put up tons of points to win games when your defense can't stop the opposing offense from scoring, your offensive line can't give you more than a second and a half to throw the ball, you have no ground threat, and your receivers are significantly slower than the defensive backs that are covering them.

Those are not NFL conditions. Nor do the games most resemble NFL games.



Yes, but you had to go to 2005 to find that 3rd bad game. Obviously, Russell has shot up the board based on his final performance in relation to Quinn's final performance. But, even in his bad games...Russell still has a healthy completion percentage.

Quinn is a victom of higher expectations. The scouts have to project him to the NFL game where players are bigger and faster. To see his completion percentage take that type of dive against bigger, faster teams does send up a red flag. Though their conclusion seems skewed...their is a valid concern buried in there.

I didn't have to. Those three games they picked out for Quinn were the three least competitive games that Notre Dame played in the last two years, so I picked out the three least competitive games that LSU played in the last two years. I fail to see the difference.

If you're stuck on them all being from 2006 then against Florida and Auburn, Jamarcus Russell tossed 44 of 76, 497 yards, 3 interceptions and 1 touchdown. Not exactly a whole lot different there. His QB rating of 65.5 is still lower than Quinn's QB rating in the three-game analysis by GBN Report.

I mean you point out that in his bad games Russell still has a healthy completion percentage and I point out that in his bad games, Quinn still has a decent TD/INT ratio.

PhinstiGator
02-19-2007, 08:06 PM
...In the case of Quinn in picking out those three games, they are Notre Dame's most uncompetitive games in the last two years...

Uncompetitive? That's an interesting way to put it. Of course, Quinn could have made those games more competitive. But, it's a team sport and uncompetitive doesn't happen in a vacuum.

For whatever reason, Jamarcus Russell appears to be winning the competition. It's probably not just his great arm, or poise in the pocket...it may have something to do with his upside. He's only a junior. And being a year behind Quinn doesn't seem to be a disadvantage.

phinphan896
02-19-2007, 08:25 PM
some people are comparing quinn to harrinton (oh nooooo!!!!:ninja:), i dont want anything to do with anyone mentioned as the next Joey Harrington.

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 08:59 PM
quote:

who did marino beat.




marino lost six games in four years if I remember correctly.
Please do not even think of comparing the two.

ckparrothead
02-19-2007, 09:02 PM
Uncompetitive? That's an interesting way to put it. Of course, Quinn could have made those games more competitive. But, it's a team sport and uncompetitive doesn't happen in a vacuum.

For whatever reason, Jamarcus Russell appears to be winning the competition. It's probably not just his great arm, or poise in the pocket...it may have something to do with his upside. He's only a junior. And being a year behind Quinn doesn't seem to be a disadvantage.

Uncompetitive in nearly every way. Receivers were not getting open, the offensive line was dissected and skewered, the ground game could not be counted on except in irregular situations, and the defense allowed score after score after score.

NorFlaFin
02-19-2007, 09:47 PM
Sorry man, but it just isn't true. The guy has run a 4.70 before at 6'6" and 250+ pounds. He's gained 497 yards running the ball over the past two years. He did that on 77 carries...or 6.5 yards per carry.

Just because the guy doesn't react well to pressure inside the pocket, that doesn't mean he's not a guy that moves really well. He moves EXTREMELY well for that size especially on designed movement.


Actually that fact makes me want nothing to do with the Russell.

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 09:48 PM
ck..... what three games are you referring to exactly. I mean against which teams in particular. I would venture a bet that they are decent teams.

None of which would include army, navy, airforce, stanford, north carolina etc etc etc... which has been exactly my point.

I can't pretend to know who you are talking about because I am not a statistician, but I have been trying to pound it home this entire time, he struggles against teams that don't completely suck.

It's not secret that lsu's (since were now debating russell vs quinn), schedule is year in and year probably more difficult. I am not guaranteeing this, cuz ND plays some big ten powerhouses, but I would be willing to bet that across the board, lsu would have a tougher time. They certainly don't basically have 5-4 guaranteed wins a year with the pathetic teams that Notre Dame plays every year.

endorPHINS72
02-19-2007, 09:57 PM
Brady Quinn isn't even in the same catagory as Peyton. Quinn plays a weak as schedule, and didn't beat any of the good team they did manage to play. Peyton placed in the SEC. He won big games, he just didn't beat FLORIDA. I think you may be mentally ill you think Quinn will amount to half as much as Peyton at the NFL level. It's really a moot point anyways because we won't be drafting him.

Ok, so let me get this straight...you don't like Brady Quinn. I think that's clear now. Anything else?

fish fan 4 life
02-19-2007, 10:11 PM
Im not sure who is better i guess only time will tell.

Tureo
02-19-2007, 10:57 PM
What kinda logic is that?

Shall we compare LSU's Defense with ND's?

Supporting cast plays a big factor.
I hate the supporting cast argument. His talents alone should have resulted in good stats in the LSU game. Marino wasn't surrounded by talent but he had amazing stats. Drew bress wasn't surrounded by talent at Purdue but he also had good stats against good teams. Him throwing 2 ints against LSU shouldn't be blamed on every other player on NDs team. However, if we draft him I will support him.

Tureo
02-19-2007, 11:00 PM
No offense, but I will place my trust in Mueller and Cameron to make the right decision.
This is all we can do as fans. If we draft Quinn, I will be the first guy in a Quinn jersey despite the fact that I am not sold on him.

The Rev
02-19-2007, 11:00 PM
This offeseason leading up to draft is going to be filled with more anticipation than the last season under Saban. Let the guessing games begin. :wink:

2413fanphins
02-19-2007, 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061816595#post1061816595)
What kinda logic is that?

Shall we compare LSU's Defense with ND's?

Supporting cast plays a big factor.

I hate the supporting cast argument. His talents alone should have resulted in good stats in the LSU game. Marino wasn't surrounded by talent but he had amazing stats. Drew bress wasn't surrounded by talent at Purdue but he also had good stats against good teams. Him throwing 2 ints against LSU shouldn't be blamed on every other player on NDs team. However, if we draft him I will support him.






This is a very solid point. I agree 100%. This is part of what i have been trying to say.

FTR... I also agree with your subsequent post.
Not sold on him at all, but will support him.

endorPHINS72
02-20-2007, 12:03 AM
This is all we can do as fans. If we draft Quinn, I will be the first guy in a Quinn jersey despite the fact that I am not sold on him.

That's very cool of you. If we do draft him, I believe after a year, you will be glad you bought that jersey.

OneHondo
02-20-2007, 01:03 AM
[QUOTE=2413fanphins;
Originally Posted by Motion http://images.finheaven.com/forums/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?p=1061816595#post1061816595)
What kinda logic is that?

Shall we compare LSU's Defense with ND's?

Supporting cast plays a big factor.

I hate the supporting cast argument. His talents alone should have resulted in good stats in the LSU game. Marino wasn't surrounded by talent but he had amazing stats. Drew bress wasn't surrounded by talent at Purdue but he also had good stats against good teams. Him throwing 2 ints against LSU shouldn't be blamed on every other player on NDs team. However, if we draft him I will support him.1061817913]Quote:




Here is comparisons of Russell, Quinn and some of the greats college stats:

Brady Quinn’s College Career Stats: Notre Dame
Comp 929 Attempts 1602 Yards 11,762 Comp % 57.5 Tds 95 Ints 39 QB Rating 152.64

Joe Montana’s College Career Stats:
Comp 291 Attempts 574 Yards 4,395 Comp % 50.7 Tds 27 Ints 28 QB Rating N/A

Dan Marino’s College Career Stats: Pittsburgh
Comp 693 Attempts 1204 Yards 8,597 Comp % 57.6 Tds 79 Ints 69 QB Rating 77.7

John Elway’s College Career Stats: Stanford
Comp 774 Attempts 1243 Yards 9,349 Comp % 62.1 Tds 77 Ints N/A QB Rating N/A

Jamarcus Russell College Career Stats: LSU
Comp 493 Attempts 797 Yards 6625 Comp % 61.8 Tds 52 Ints 21 QB Rating 143.6

I also read a post on another thread that Quinn was a sure bust because he never played big in big games and he never won a bowl game. I found that amusing since John Elway never played in a bowl game and never led Stanford to a bowl appearence

Mr772
02-20-2007, 02:15 AM
Russell is a freak of nature but he will not be that good as an NFL QB. A scout i talked to last friday said his work ethic is pathetic. On the other hand he said his potental is unlimited if he wants to work hard. He said that he could be as good as he wants to be but that he needs to work much harder than he has been thus far in his career.

Motion
02-20-2007, 09:49 AM
I hate the supporting cast argument. His talents alone should have resulted in good stats in the LSU game. Marino wasn't surrounded by talent but he had amazing stats. Drew bress wasn't surrounded by talent at Purdue but he also had good stats against good teams. Him throwing 2 ints against LSU shouldn't be blamed on every other player on NDs team. However, if we draft him I will support him.

No where did I say that there should be NO blame put on Quinn for ND's performance. But if your comapring Quinn to Russell based on that game you MUST consider the rest of the team(s). LSU's defense and WR corps are on a completely different level than ND's.

Boomer
02-20-2007, 10:01 AM
I hate the supporting cast argument. His talents alone should have resulted in good stats in the LSU game.

I'm sorry that's nonsense.

LSU crowded the line of scrimmage, they shut down Darius Walker and forced Quinn to beat them. They brought Landry into the box and then rushed 8 and sometimes 9 men against an already porous line. Quinn had absolutely no time in the pocket and even more importantly, his receivers had no time to work their routes. A receivers work is done on timing.....1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, CUT/BALL/CATCH. If the ball is in the air somewhere between 1000 and 2000, then what chance do you have?

You can't blame LSU's dominance of Notre Dame on Brady Quinn anymore than you can blame it on Tom Zbikowski. Sometimes, when you line 'em up, yours'n's, better than ours'n' and that's just the way it is.

2413fanphins
02-20-2007, 11:15 AM
I'm sorry that's nonsense.

LSU crowded the line of scrimmage, they shut down Darius Walker and forced Quinn to beat them. They brought Landry into the box and then rushed 8 and sometimes 9 men against an already porous line. Quinn had absolutely no time in the pocket and even more importantly, his receivers had no time to work their routes. A receivers work is done on timing.....1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, CUT/BALL/CATCH. If the ball is in the air somewhere between 1000 and 2000, then what chance do you have?

You can't blame LSU's dominance of Notre Dame on Brady Quinn anymore than you can blame it on Tom Zbikowski. Sometimes, when you line 'em up, yours'n's, better than ours'n' and that's just the way it is.


Well I guess we better use the same excuse as our reasoning for why quinn beats up on the crap teams he beats up on.
So now we have to question how the games against army, navy, airforce, stanford and north carolina were won.

Stitches
02-20-2007, 11:25 AM
Russell is so much better than Quinn, he get's a 3rd 's' in his name. The extra 'S' stands for Success! appearently. :tongue:

PhinstiGator
02-20-2007, 11:49 AM
...LSU crowded the line of scrimmage, they shut down Darius Walker and forced Quinn to beat them...

And he didn't. That's why his stock has fallen. He will be in those type of situations in the NFL and he has to be able to make competitive plays.

Quinn may become a great QB. It may take 4 years not dissimilar to Eli.

Jamarcus Russell translates better to the NFL. His size, his arm, his accuracy, and calm in the pocket give him a time advantage to release and complete.

It is funny how time changes things. A year ago, Quinn was the best QB on the planet.

Boomer
02-20-2007, 12:01 PM
Well I guess we better use the same excuse as our reasoning for why quinn beats up on the crap teams he beats up on.
So now we have to question how the games against army, navy, airforce, stanford and north carolina were won.

You must have been asleep when he beat 20th ranked Pitt, 5th ranked Michigan, 24th ranked Michigan State, 9th ranked Tennessee, 3rd ranked Michigan, 23rd ranked Pitt, 22nd ranked Purdue, lost on a miracle 4th and 9 to number 1 ranked USC, Tennessee again, 19th ranked Penn State, 17th ranked MSU and a UCLA team that stopped #2 ranked USC from going to the BCS Title Game.

Change the record. It's EXCEPTIONALLY boring.

Boomer
02-20-2007, 12:02 PM
And he didn't. That's why his stock has fallen. He will be in those type of situations in the NFL and he has to be able to make competitive plays.

Quinn may become a great QB. It may take 4 years not dissimilar to Eli.

Jamarcus Russell translates better to the NFL. His size, his arm, his accuracy, and calm in the pocket give him a time advantage to release and complete.

It is funny how time changes things. A year ago, Quinn was the best QB on the planet.


Except in the NFL he won't have two possession wideouts, no TE to speak of and a 2nd day tailback to play with. I defy ANY QB to make competetive plays with little or no set up time, when receivers haven't even made their cuts.

PhinstiGator
02-20-2007, 12:20 PM
Except in the NFL he won't have two possession wideouts, no TE to speak of and a 2nd day tailback to play with. I defy ANY QB to make competetive plays with little or no set up time, when receivers haven't even made their cuts.

I thought you were talking about the Dolphins there for a second.

C'mon, now. The fighting Irish were a top 10 ranked team. It wasn't because of their Defense.

They had a superbowl play-caller, a 5 yard per carry RB, a really big receiver (Samardzija--potential first rounder before baseball), and ran a pass happy QB friendly system.

Those teams that expect the QB to carry the team will be temped to pass on Quinn.

Stitches
02-20-2007, 12:39 PM
I thought you were talking about the Dolphins there for a second.

C'mon, now. The fighting Irish were a top 10 ranked team. It wasn't because of their Defense.

They had a superbowl play-caller, a 5 yard per carry RB, a really big receiver (Samardzija--potential first rounder before baseball), and ran a pass happy QB friendly system.

Those teams that expect the QB to carry the team will be temped to pass on Quinn.

They were overrated as a top 10 team, and it showed. Or at least it showed how big a drop off it was from the elites to even the upper echelon teams.

ckparrothead
02-20-2007, 12:39 PM
I thought you were talking about the Dolphins there for a second.

C'mon, now. The fighting Irish were a top 10 ranked team. It wasn't because of their Defense.

They had a superbowl play-caller, a 5 yard per carry RB, a really big receiver (Samardzija--potential first rounder before baseball), and ran a pass happy QB friendly system.

Those teams that expect the QB to carry the team will be temped to pass on Quinn.

What value is that statement supposed to have to the Brady Quinn talk? They were a top ten team because of Quinn.

Their receivers were slow as molasses, they had no tight end, and Darius Walker is an unexciting day 2 prospect...probably a special teamer. Their OL was porous and their defense allowed 40+ points a game in those games that Brady Quinn gets so openly criticized for.

None of those facts can be denied. None.

Regan21286
02-20-2007, 03:17 PM
What value is that statement supposed to have to the Brady Quinn talk? They were a top ten team because of Quinn.

Their receivers were slow as molasses, they had no tight end, and Darius Walker is an unexciting day 2 prospect...probably a special teamer. Their OL was porous and their defense allowed 40+ points a game in those games that Brady Quinn gets so openly criticized for.

None of those facts can be denied. None.

Agreed 100%. Hit it right on the head.



You must have been asleep when he beat 20th ranked Pitt, 5th ranked Michigan, 24th ranked Michigan State, 9th ranked Tennessee, 3rd ranked Michigan, 23rd ranked Pitt, 22nd ranked Purdue, lost on a miracle 4th and 9 to number 1 ranked USC, Tennessee again, 19th ranked Penn State, 17th ranked MSU and a UCLA team that stopped #2 ranked USC from going to the BCS Title Game.

Change the record. It's EXCEPTIONALLY boring.

Not to mention that UCLA D, especially the superb pass rush, was in Quinn's face all game just like it was with Booty. We crowded the line all day and he was still patient enough to (unfortunately) beat us.

Dan2Duper
02-20-2007, 07:25 PM
Quinn is certainly not above criticism...



http://www.gbnreport.com/scoutsnotebook.htm

On the day of the big game, Russell came out...surprising enough...the better QB.


What about the day of the big game, when jamarcus faced a SEC defense comparable to the one brady faced in LSU(Auburn, or Florida)

No knock on Jamarcus but the ND defense doesn't compare to an elite SEC defense.

NMUCats
02-20-2007, 11:00 PM
I'll throw in my opinion on this matter as well. If ND had an average-above average quarterback this past season, they would have lost to Michigan State & UCLA, and finished at 8-4 instead of 10-2. I'm pretty sure that last statement is unchallengable, but go ahead and try if you'd like. 8-4 makes for a fringe top 25 team, much less a top 10 team. So if you ask me, ND was a team with fringe top 25 talent that happened to have a great qb leading the way. To illustrate my point, let me show you the recruiting rankings for players that were on that team.

2003 - #12
2004 - #32
2005 - #40
2006 - #8

The 06 class was a very good one, but they were still true frosh and only one of them had a major impact. It was mainly the other 3 classes, which illustrates my point that this was a team with fringe top 25 talent. Now assuredly recruiting rankings are not scientific or perfect, but as a whole they do a pretty respectable job of illustrating a team's overall talent. Usually the recruiting rankings have a high correlation to the actual rankings during the following years.

This last ND team was a team with a handful of playmakers and a bunch of average players. Samardzija and Quinn are top notch players, and Carlson (TE), McKnight (WR), and Walker were "2nd tier" playmakers, meaning guys that did really well against the weaker teams, but often were invisible in the big games. I don't think they ever won the line of scrimmage battle against teams with equal or better talent, and as a result, the team relied on Quinn to bail them out and make plays.

Most people thought I was being a crazy homer when I said that Quinn deserved the Heisman as much as Troy Smith did, but if you watched the national championship game, Troy Smith went up against what Quinn had all year, and he completely folded (Obviously Florida's defense is very, very good, but my point is, ND's o-line made a lot of defenses look like Florida). Even in the Michigan game, Quinn hung in there and threw for 3 tds, and that was unanimously agreed upon to be his worst "big game". Switch Troy with Brady, and ND still would have gone 10-3 at best, if not a couple games worse.

But I'm just a crazy homer, what do I know :wink:

Captain Lou
02-21-2007, 10:36 AM
Who did Dan Marino beat?


He never beat anyone, and never won the big game on either level. We need a complete team. We had a franchise qb, and no rings to show for it. That's why I wouldn't waste a high pick on Brady. FYI just because you draft a guy in the top 10 it doesn't make a franchise qb.

Crowder52
02-21-2007, 11:51 AM
You must have been asleep when he beat 20th ranked Pitt, 5th ranked Michigan, 24th ranked Michigan State, 9th ranked Tennessee, 3rd ranked Michigan, 23rd ranked Pitt, 22nd ranked Purdue, lost on a miracle 4th and 9 to number 1 ranked USC, Tennessee again, 19th ranked Penn State, 17th ranked MSU and a UCLA team that stopped #2 ranked USC from going to the BCS Title Game.

Change the record. It's EXCEPTIONALLY boring.

You must have been asleep by season's end if those are the rankings you are going to use for some of those teams.

- The #3 Michigan team he beat ended the season 7-5, unranked.
- The second Tennessee team he beat ended the season with a losing record.
- He beat Michigan St. twice. One of those years they were 5-7, and the other they were 4-8.
- He beat Pitt twice. One of those years they finished 8-5 unranked and the other year they finished 5-6.
- The 2005 #22 Purdue team he beat finished the season with a losing record, 5-6.

His two best wins were over a 9-3 Michigan team and a 10-3 Tennessee team, both two years ago. I'll give him (a little) credit for those, but to list off all those teams as if they were all legitimate is misleading.

Boomer
02-21-2007, 12:27 PM
You must have been asleep by season's end if those are the rankings you are going to use for some of those teams.

- The #3 Michigan team he beat ended the season 7-5, unranked.
- The second Tennessee team he beat ended the season with a losing record.
- He beat Michigan St. twice. One of those years they were 5-7, and the other they were 4-8.
- He beat Pitt twice. One of those years they finished 8-5 unranked and the other year they finished 5-6.
- The 2005 #22 Purdue team he beat finished the season with a losing record, 5-6.

His two best wins were over a 9-3 Michigan team and a 10-3 Tennessee team, both two years ago. I'll give him (a little) credit for those, but to list off all those teams as if they were all legitimate is misleading.

FLMAO. So you want to skew your ridiculous argument further by claiming that the teams he beat shouldn't have been ranked where they were?

Utter garbage. Doesn't matter how teams finished. He did what he did against the the teams that were ranked where they were at the time. Does Miami's 21-0 beating of the Pats count less because they didn't win the Superbowl?

ckparrothead
02-21-2007, 12:34 PM
FLMAO. So you want to skew your ridiculous argument further by claiming that the teams he beat shouldn't have been ranked where they were?

Utter garbage. Doesn't matter how teams finished. He did what he did against the the teams that were ranked where they were at the time. Does Miami's 21-0 beating of the Pats count less because they didn't win the Superbowl?

Also kind of ridiculous and hypocritical in light of the "But Notre Dame was ranked in the top 5!" argument.

Stitches
02-21-2007, 02:00 PM
Also kind of ridiculous and hypocritical in light of the "But Notre Dame was ranked in the top 5!" argument.

I think he forgot to point out that the Penn State team that got drubbed was in the top 20 when they played ND, but went on to lose 3 games over the course of the season, and only finish in the top 25 in one poll.

Crowder52
02-22-2007, 12:24 AM
FLMAO. So you want to skew your ridiculous argument further by claiming that the teams he beat shouldn't have been ranked where they were?

Utter garbage. Doesn't matter how teams finished. He did what he did against the the teams that were ranked where they were at the time. Does Miami's 21-0 beating of the Pats count less because they didn't win the Superbowl?

What is this ridiculous argument you are talking about anyway? This was my first post on this subject.

So it's ridiculous to look at the team's record at the end of the season? Yeah...what was I thinking? Do you understand how ridiculous YOU sound when you say it doesn't matter how teams finish? I would think a team's final record would be the best way to evaluate how well they did over the season. When Notre Dame beats a Michigan team that was ranked #5 in pre-season polls during the 3rd week of the season and finished 7-5, unranked, sorry, I'm not giving him credit for beating a top-5 team.

Crowder52
02-22-2007, 12:26 AM
Also kind of ridiculous and hypocritical in light of the "But Notre Dame was ranked in the top 5!" argument.

As usual, CK has to quote Boomer and give him moral support. I never said anything about Notre Dame being in the top 5, so you must have me confused with some other poster.

Crowder52
02-22-2007, 12:30 AM
I think he forgot to point out that the Penn State team that got drubbed was in the top 20 when they played ND, but went on to lose 3 games over the course of the season, and only finish in the top 25 in one poll.

I was debating Boomer's post. I don't see why he and I can't go back and forth without CK quoting him, and you quoting CK, etc. You guys just look like the FinHeaven bandwagon who go around double and triple teaming people in threads.

Anyways, Penn St. was ranked in the 20s when they played ND and finished the season ranked in the 20s. That's why I didn't contest that game. What are you getting at here?

ckparrothead
02-22-2007, 11:38 AM
As usual, CK has to quote Boomer and give him moral support. I never said anything about Notre Dame being in the top 5, so you must have me confused with some other poster.

I didn't realize that pointing out hypocrisy was giving "moral support" or whatever, but people on the losing side of arguments will say the darnedest things.

Crowder52
02-22-2007, 11:45 AM
I didn't realize that pointing out hypocrisy was giving "moral support" or whatever, but people on the losing side of arguments will say the darnedest things.

Again, I never said anything about Notre Dame being in the top 5 as evidence of their talent. I saw other people did though. What does that have to do with what I said to Boomer, and why did you bring it up when it was so irrelevant?

edit: and I was debating on whether or not those rankings Boomer gave those teams were legitimate. About half of them finished the season with losing records. This was my point...wins and losses are facts, I don't see how I'm "losing the argument"

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-22-2007, 12:01 PM
terrible illogical thread. it's funny to see guys with 10 posts argue with CK. DERFFFF DUHHH HE DIDNT BEAT USC SO UHHH LETS NOT DRAFT HIM.

Bruzer
02-22-2007, 12:22 PM
Yea I have more most respect for ck and boomer here hard to even argue with them as they know what hey are talking about.

ckparrothead
02-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Again, I never said anything about Notre Dame being in the top 5 as evidence of their talent. I saw other people did though. What does that have to do with what I said to Boomer, and why did you bring it up when it was so irrelevant?

edit: and I was debating on whether or not those rankings Boomer gave those teams were legitimate. About half of them finished the season with losing records. This was my point...wins and losses are facts, I don't see how I'm "losing the argument"

If it looked like I was speaking directly to you or lumping you in with others, I apologize. However, I did quote Boomer, and therefore I was speaking to him, not you. I was merely pointing out the contradiction between your argument and the arguments that ND was a top 5 pick. That doesn't mean I felt that you contradicted yourself personally.

You have a valid point inasmuch as some of the teams with high rankings when they played ND ended up not so high by year's end. On the other hand, Boomer has a point that that does not necessarily mean that the teams were mistakenly ranked that high at the time, it just means that by the end they were not the same team as they were considered to be back when they played ND, and part of the reason being ND's beating them, as well as other myriad reasons.

You brought up the right point, it just wasn't a winning point.

Stitches
02-22-2007, 01:48 PM
I was debating Boomer's post. I don't see why he and I can't go back and forth without CK quoting him, and you quoting CK, etc. You guys just look like the FinHeaven bandwagon who go around double and triple teaming people in threads.

Anyways, Penn St. was ranked in the 20s when they played ND and finished the season ranked in the 20s. That's why I didn't contest that game. What are you getting at here?

I was merely getting at that Penn State was as talented a team as ND, yet was ranked in the 20s. I was just trying to say that the reason ND was ranked top 10 and Penn State wasn't, was because of who they had at Quarterback. Brady Quinn, singularly, made that team that much better in the rankings, and overall.

Crowder52
02-22-2007, 02:37 PM
If it looked like I was speaking directly to you or lumping you in with others, I apologize. However, I did quote Boomer, and therefore I was speaking to him, not you. I was merely pointing out the contradiction between your argument and the arguments that ND was a top 5 pick. That doesn't mean I felt that you contradicted yourself personally.

You have a valid point inasmuch as some of the teams with high rankings when they played ND ended up not so high by year's end. On the other hand, Boomer has a point that that does not necessarily mean that the teams were mistakenly ranked that high at the time, it just means that by the end they were not the same team as they were considered to be back when they played ND, and part of the reason being ND's beating them, as well as other myriad reasons.

You brought up the right point, it just wasn't a winning point.

And this is a completely legitimate point that Boomer made. Seriously, you and Boomer bring a lot to these forums and I enjoy reading your opinions on a lot of things. What I don't like, however, is when I try to make a counter-point to what Boomer says and he responds with the whole "FLMAO" and then goes on a condescending rant.

My point was coherent, easy to follow, and supported by fact. Yet Boomer comes back and calls it ridiculous and bashes me and laughs at me. Then other people start quoting Boomer's response to me and taking it further. I mean, these are message boards and we are here to debate and have a few laughs. No one is above criticism or critique, and I just don't think you guys have the right attitude in a lot of these threads that I've seen.

ckparrothead
02-22-2007, 02:54 PM
And this is a completely legitimate point that Boomer made. Seriously, you and Boomer bring a lot to these forums and I enjoy reading your opinions on a lot of things. What I don't like, however, is when I try to make a counter-point to what Boomer says and he responds with the whole "FLMAO" and then goes on a condescending rant.

My point was coherent, easy to follow, and supported by fact. Yet Boomer comes back and calls it ridiculous and bashes me and laughs at me. Then other people start quoting Boomer's response to me and taking it further. I mean, these are message boards and we are here to debate and have a few laughs. No one is above criticism or critique, and I just don't think you guys have the right attitude in a lot of these threads that I've seen.

We can all be a bit rough at times. Thick skin is a necessity.

Captain Lou
02-22-2007, 04:08 PM
Where did I say he was the next P. Manning? There were some stupid people that said P. Manning sucked because he didn't won big games:rolleyes:

Think before you post

Listen, I don't think anyone ever said that Manning sucked, or have I once said Quinn sucked. My opinion is that Quinn is over-rated. I watched him several times, and to me he just doesn't have the IT factor. Lets say in a game and there's 2 minutes left, and if he were playing against my team I wouldn't be afraid. Does he the physical tools, hell yes. He has prototypical size and strength. Hoever, I've never seen him will his team to victory, and beat a team that he shouldn't. If we draft him I hope I'm wrong about him. :rolleyes2

Captain Lou
02-22-2007, 04:32 PM
FLMAO. So you want to skew your ridiculous argument further by claiming that the teams he beat shouldn't have been ranked where they were?

Utter garbage. Doesn't matter how teams finished. He did what he did against the the teams that were ranked where they were at the time. Does Miami's 21-0 beating of the Pats count less because they didn't win the Superbowl?


All Crowder was saying, and he's right. The majority of those teams sucked they beat. Just because those teams we ranked when they played them is a futile argument. Of the teams Crowder counter pointed how many of them ended up bowl eligable. I wouldn't go around around bragging about beating teams with a losing record. The final record is a much better indicator of what kind of teams they were. :rolleyes2

Boomer
02-22-2007, 05:58 PM
All Crowder was saying, and he's right. The majority of those teams sucked they beat. Just because those teams we ranked when they played them is a futile argument. Of the teams Crowder counter pointed how many of them ended up bowl eligable. I wouldn't go around around bragging about beating teams with a losing record. The final record is a much better indicator of what kind of teams they were. :rolleyes2

Yawn.

Pennington's Rocket Arm
02-22-2007, 08:49 PM
i don't know why i'm surprised every year by how many people know absolutely nothing and look at completely ridiculous details involving a player's NFL potential. god. get educated, people.

Stitches
02-22-2007, 09:30 PM
i don't know why i'm surprised every year by how many people know absolutely nothing and look at completely ridiculous details involving a player's NFL potential. god. get educated, people.

You mean like how Mozes is the 2nd best center in the draft simply because he won the Rimington award. :rolleyes2

Captain Lou
02-22-2007, 09:34 PM
Yawn.


That's exactly what I would say too. If I arguments had no substance. :D