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ZOD
06-29-2003, 09:55 AM
In the ACC vs. Big East comparison the locals have also had a turned eye to the rest of the NCAA. The ACC is a much more competitive division over the long haul than the Big East. Sure, this year Miami was in the National Championship game and Syracuse is the National champion in Basketball. But let's face facts. In fan base (i.e money) the ACC is far superior. In competitiveness in the sports we cherish they are also far superior over the long haul.

Football and Basketball....

1981 Clemson
1982 Penn State
1983 Miami(FL)
1984 BYU
1985 Oklahoma
1986 Penn State
1987 Miami(FL)
1988 Notre Dame
1989 Miami(FL)
1990 Colorado/Georgia Tech
1991 Washington/Miami(FL)
1992 Alabama
1993 Florida State
1994 Nebraska
1995 Nebraska
1996 Florida
1997 Michigan/Nebraska
1998 Tennessee
1999 Florida State

As I count it, since 1981 three different teams from the ACC have won five National Championships. The Big East has won five in the same time span. All won by who ? Miami.

Now what conference sucks in football ?

After Miami joins the ACC you will have at least 3 perennial powerhouses in all three major sports categories. Football, Basketball, and Baseball. On any given year the conference could have four or five.

People have said that this is about cash. Why, yes it is. Cash from football games with an attendance of at least 60,000 at all football games except for Duke and Wake Forest. Those two schools make up their downfall in this area through their basketball programs and it's attendance.

Basketball ? In the past 21 years 12 ACC teams have been in the NCAA Basketball championship.

Year-by-Year Tournament History
Year Championship game Score
2002 Maryland def. Indiana 64-52
2001 Duke def. Arizona 82-72
2000 Michigan State def. Florida 89-76
1999 Connecticut def. Duke 77-74
1998 Kentucky def. Utah 78-69
1997 Arizona def. Kentucky 84-79 (OT)
1996 Kentucky def. Syracuse 76-67
1995 UCLA def. Arkansas 89-78
1994 Arkansas def. Duke 76-72
1993 North Carolina def Michigan 77-71
1992 Duke def. Michigan 71-51
1991 Duke def. Kansas 72-65
1990 UNLV def. Duke 103-73
1989 Michigan def. Seton Hall 80-79 (OT)
1988 Kansas def. Oklahoma 83-79
1987 Indiana def. Syracuse 74-73
1986 Louisville def. Duke 72-69
1985 Villanova def. Georgetown 66-64
1984 Georgetown def. Houston 84-75
1983 NC State def. Houston 54-52
1982 North Carolina def. Georgetown 63-62
1981 Indiana def. North Carolina

Baseball..

Miami will not dominate their division again. In the past 10 years Clemson and Virginia have fielded studs. Florida State has joined into the fray of late and now if you add Miami you have the strongest division in Baseball..The college world series will be dominated by the ACC..

Open your eyes and be thankful that the local team is with a winner that can provide the cash and competitiveness that will allow the school to support Title IX without running a million dollar deficit..

inFINSible
06-29-2003, 10:23 AM
sorry....not quite enough Dolphin content to qualify for main board status..;)

XoPhinsoX
06-29-2003, 10:52 AM
Well, Miami Heat sucks ;).

M-REAL
06-29-2003, 12:14 PM
If the Canes join the ACC, the Maryland Terrapins will be their toughest competition as well as the Noles. Maryland has a conference rank of #1 and the Noles are #2, followed by N.C. state at 3. My question is, if they do go, will Miami not be ranked because they are new to the conference?

ZOD
06-29-2003, 01:15 PM
Who cares ? The BCS is all that matters right now.

What the Cane fans will be astounded by is the fact that 85,000 to 90,000 people will be in some foothill town called Clemson watching football.

CASH !!!

Rrodr038
06-29-2003, 03:45 PM
And what was the moral of that long story???

ZOD
06-29-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Rrodr038
And what was the moral of that long story???

I changed the title to reflect it...Thank you....:D

iceblizzard69
06-29-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by 1972dolphins
Who cares ? The BCS is all that matters right now.

What the Cane fans will be astounded by is the fact that 85,000 to 90,000 people will be in some foothill town called Clemson watching football.

CASH !!!


And then Clemson fans will be shocked by how their *** was kicked so badly.

I am not talking about championships in the last 20 years. I could care less that Clemson and Georgia Tech won titles a long time ago because at this point it is meaningless. Clemson and Georgia Tech are both mediocre programs, and Georgia Tech has a terrible coach.

Last year, the ACC was total ****. FSU won the conference, and they were ****ty. In the Big East, Miami and Virginia Tech were both very good, while Pittsburgh and West Virginia were both on the same level as NC State, Virginia (I know they beat WVU in a Bowl Game last year), and FSU. Right now (which is what matters, not 20 years ago) the Big East (with Miami and Virginia Tech) is better at football than the ACC.

The ACC is a great basketball conference, I will not deny that, but last year they were a little down as well. They should be back.

If the ACC didn't have Florida State, they would be on the same level as Conference USA. They have absolutely no depth at all in football, every single program but FSU is mediocre. I mean, Maryland, which isn't even a good football school, won the conference outright in 2001 but got their asses kicked in a BCS bowl.

ZOD
06-29-2003, 10:12 PM
Uh....The Clemson fans have gotten use to a new bully on the block since FSU came to the ACC so I'm sure Miami will be no surprise...

Miami, USC, UCLA, Nortre Dame, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, and FSU are top flight programs that have distinct advantages in recruiting...

I would hope that you do not include West Virginia in the category above... For teams such as Clemson, Maryland, Pitt, WVU, Virginia, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, and so forth there is second tier...In that second tier things tend to run in a cycle...Every now and again one of those teams can put a show on for us and I hope that you would appreciate that the ACC outnumbers the Big East in that second tier...

What I would also hope that you would care about is the financial burden placed upon the University of Miami in fielding all sports teams (again, thanks to Title IX)....

This is what I would hope you appreciate...

Clemson 85,000
FSU 83,000
Miami 73,000
Virginia Tech 65,000
North Carolina 60,000
Georgia Tech 55,000
NC state 50,000
Maryland 55,000
Virginia 55,000
Wake Forest 35,000
Duke 35,000


West Virginia 63,000
Boston College 44,000
Pittsburgh average attendance 45,000
Rutgers 41,000
Syracuse 49,000
Temple 25,000

Now, given the choice....Who do you want to split proceeds with ?

Here is another stat to choke on while you ponder why Miami lost over a million dollars supporting their athletic programs last year..

1. Michigan
2. Penn St.
3. Tennessee
4. Ohio St.
5. LSU
6. Georgia
7. Florida
8. Auburn
9. Alabama
10. South Carolina
11. Florida St.
12. Notre Dame
13. Texas A&M
14. Texas
15. Wisconsin
16. Nebraska
17. Clemson
18. Oklahoma
19. Michigan St.
20. Washington
21. Miami (Fla.)
22. Southern California
23. UCLA
24. Kentucky
25. Brigham Young
26. Iowa
27. Arkansas
28. Virginia Tech
29. Mississippi
30. Purdue
31. Virginia
32. Oregon
33. Illinois
34. Missouri
35. West Virginia
36. North Carolina
37. North Carolina St.
38. Colorado
39. Mississippi St.
40. Kansas St.
41. Arizona St.
42. Maryland
43. Arizona
44. Pittsburgh
45. Iowa St.
46. Oklahoma St.
47. Georgia Tech
48. Texas Tech
49. Air Force
50. Syracuse

7 teams from the ACC in the top 50 in attendance
5 from the Big East in the top 50 and now two of those are gone.

And what's the real shame of this last stat ?

Miami was in the National Championship game the year of the stat and still got outsold in tickets by two ACC teams....................including Clemson....

ZOD
06-29-2003, 10:31 PM
You want to talk basketball ?

Attendance ACC vs. Big East

top 25 average in 2002

4. Syracuse 17,000
8. North Carolina 16,300
17. Maryland 14,100
19. Connecticut 13,700
20 NC state 13,500

Baseball ?

Division I - Total Home Attendance

1.LSU
2. Alabama
3. Mississippi St.
4. Texas
5. Texas A&M
6. Clemson
7. South Carolina
8. Nebraska
9. Florida St.
10. Wichita St.
11. Auburn
12. Fresno St.
13. Tulane
14. Hawaii
15. Texas Tech
16. Rice
17. Stanford
18. Baylor
19. Florida
20. Mississippi
21. Arizona St.
22. Miami (Fla.)
23. Southern Miss.
24. Oklahoma
25. Georgia Tech
26. East Caro.
27. Georgia
28. Oklahoma St.
29. La.-Lafayette
30. Arkansas
31. North Carolina
32. Citadel
33. Cal St. Fullerton
34. Tennessee
35. Nevada
36. Ohio St.
37. Stetson
38. Notre Dame
39. New Orleans
40. BYU
41. Arizona
42. Creighton
43. San Diego St.
44. Ga. Southern
45. Wake Forest
46. Col. of Charleston
47. Southern California
48. Louisiana Tech
49. Missouri
50. Virginia

6 teams in the ACC
1 from the Big East Who ? Miami...

Face it man...The Big East should have been called Miami's

BIG BURDEN !!!

ZOD
06-29-2003, 10:38 PM
You want to know how big a Burden it is financially ? Just look at Miami baseball's schedule....They only play two Big East teams (Rutgers and Boston College) and they had to come to Miami and play...

CASH !!!

iceblizzard69
06-30-2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by 1972dolphins
Uh....The Clemson fans have gotten use to a new bully on the block since FSU came to the ACC so I'm sure Miami will be no surprise...

Miami, USC, UCLA, Nortre Dame, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, and FSU are top flight programs that have distinct advantages in recruiting...

I would hope that you do not include West Virginia in the category above... For teams such as Clemson, Maryland, Pitt, WVU, Virginia, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, and so forth there is second tier...In that second tier things tend to run in a cycle...Every now and again one of those teams can put a show on for us and I hope that you would appreciate that the ACC outnumbers the Big East in that second tier...

What I would also hope that you would care about is the financial burden placed upon the University of Miami in fielding all sports teams (again, thanks to Title IX)....

This is what I would hope you appreciate...

Clemson 85,000
FSU 83,000
Miami 73,000
Virginia Tech 65,000
North Carolina 60,000
Georgia Tech 55,000
NC state 50,000
Maryland 55,000
Virginia 55,000
Wake Forest 35,000
Duke 35,000


West Virginia 63,000
Boston College 44,000
Pittsburgh average attendance 45,000
Rutgers 41,000
Syracuse 49,000
Temple 25,000

Now, given the choice....Who do you want to split proceeds with ?

Here is another stat to choke on while you ponder why Miami lost over a million dollars supporting their athletic programs last year..

1. Michigan
2. Penn St.
3. Tennessee
4. Ohio St.
5. LSU
6. Georgia
7. Florida
8. Auburn
9. Alabama
10. South Carolina
11. Florida St.
12. Notre Dame
13. Texas A&M
14. Texas
15. Wisconsin
16. Nebraska
17. Clemson
18. Oklahoma
19. Michigan St.
20. Washington
21. Miami (Fla.)
22. Southern California
23. UCLA
24. Kentucky
25. Brigham Young
26. Iowa
27. Arkansas
28. Virginia Tech
29. Mississippi
30. Purdue
31. Virginia
32. Oregon
33. Illinois
34. Missouri
35. West Virginia
36. North Carolina
37. North Carolina St.
38. Colorado
39. Mississippi St.
40. Kansas St.
41. Arizona St.
42. Maryland
43. Arizona
44. Pittsburgh
45. Iowa St.
46. Oklahoma St.
47. Georgia Tech
48. Texas Tech
49. Air Force
50. Syracuse

7 teams from the ACC in the top 50 in attendance
5 from the Big East in the top 50 and now two of those are gone.

And what's the real shame of this last stat ?

Miami was in the National Championship game the year of the stat and still got outsold in tickets by two ACC teams....................including Clemson....

I am not talking about money, I am talking about competition. Sure, they will make more money in the ACC, beating up on their ****ty football teams, but the Big East is currently a stronger football conference. The ACC wouldn't get a BCS game if FSU wasn't in it, and last year, none of those teams deserved a BCS game. The ACC is just a bunch of second and third tier football schools and their only current top tier one (FSU) is not that good right now.

If Miami was going to leave the Big East, I would want them in a good football conference, the SEC, not the ACC. Since the SEC is not inviting anyone, that is not an option, but my point is that the ACC is not better than the Big East. There are only two good reasons to go to the ACC:

1. Geography
2. Money

However, the money part would be a lot better if there was a 12th team which would create a conference championship. The geography is better because almost all of the Big East is in the Northeast while the ACC is primarily Southern schools (Maryland is the only one that is in the north)

Rrodr038
06-30-2003, 01:29 PM
Very well said iceblizzard...couldn't agree more. Competitiveness makes a conference good, not average attendance or how much money the conference makes. I agree that the Big East was a better football conference (or atleast equal to the ACC). Furthermore I think that UM has almost exactly the same schedule in 2004 that it will in 2003; they still play UF, FSU and Va Tech. (there three most competitive games), you just replace the Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Boston College games for Clemson, Georgia Tech and Maryland games. Then you replace the Temple, Rutgers and UConn games for Duke, Wake Forest and UNC games. All in all the only left over schools that the ACC has is NC State and Virginia, which depending on how they do the divisions of the ACC, might not even play UM while UM does not have play tough out of conference games like Tennessee. Both the ACC and Big East have been kind of crappy since their inception but the Big East has been more competitive and lately has had more teams in the national spotlight. The only thing that the ACC would have over the Big East would be a Conference Championship game, which would boost strength of schedule points. Had the Big East pursued FSU and a couple of other teams from the ACC (which they were thinking about doing), the dilemna would be exactly the same and FSU probably would have left the ACC to go play in the Big East. Long story short the ACC will be better in 2004 than the Big East, but right now it is not.

ZOD
06-30-2003, 02:57 PM
So WVU had a good year last year ? That's your basis of saying the Big East is a better football conference ? Last year ?

2002 you say you are looking for competition for number 2 Miami ?

ESPN/USA Today Final Top 25

11. NC state
13. Maryland
23. FSU
25. Virginia

14. Virginia Tech
18. Pittsburgh
20. West Virginia

Don't know about you...But it looks to me like there was more competition in the ACC..

2001
11. Maryland
15. FSU
24. Georgia Tech

14. Syracuse
18. Virginia Tech
20. BC

2000
5. FSU
16. Clemson
17. Georgia Tech

6. Virginia Tech

1999
1. FSU
20. Georgia Tech

2. Virginia Tech

You know...I keep looking for this powerhouse Big East football in the final rankings...I just cannot find it....

Can you please expand on this so-called football prowess in that conference ?

Other than Miami and Virginia Tech in the past four years I have seen nothing.....As a matter of fact, last year two teams in the ACC finished ahead of Virginia Tech...

And where is Virginia Tech now ?

FACTS don't support your arguments...

iceblizzard69
06-30-2003, 06:20 PM
You are eliminating Miami from all of those. Both the ACC and Big East had 4 ranked teams last year, and that is what matters, however, the teams in the Big East had way better rankings than those of the ACC. The fact that FSU went to a BCS game last year shows how weak the ACC is at football. Virginia Tech and Miami are both currently better than any team in the ACC including FSU.

The SEC is a good football conference. In the SEC, basically every team recruits well and has a strong fan base with the exception of Vanderbilt. In the ACC, you have a bunch of basketball schools and a bunch of pushovers that aren't the top recruiters and aren't the top football schools in their state.

Rrodr038
06-30-2003, 06:42 PM
The title of this thread is "The ACC is Just Better" not "The ACC will Be Better with Miami" or "Miami is better off in the ACC" ; if that's what you mean then just change it . Otherwise you need to include UM in your rants...Once you include Miami into the Big East rankings for those years (seeing as how they were still in the Big East when you made this thread and still in the Big East when these polls came out) it makes it a lot more even (maybe a little lopsided towards the Big East)...If I'm not mistaken it was:
2002:
11. NC state
13. Maryland
23. FSU
25. Virginia

2. Miami
14. Virginia Tech
18. Pittsburgh
20. West Virginia

2001:
11. Maryland
15. FSU
24. Georgia Tech

1. Miami
14. Syracuse
18. Virginia Tech
20. BC

2000:
5. FSU
16. Clemson
17. Georgia Tech

2. Miami
6. Virginia Tech

1999:
1. FSU
20. Georgia Tech

2. Virginia Tech

The only year that the ACC is clear cut better is '99 (right at the end of Miami's down cycle), other than that both in '01 and '02 the Big East was better once you enter in Miami. Compare both conferences with out their power houses (the ACC without FSU, the Big East without Miami) and the Big East still looks better with VT being the best program recently out of the group. Remember that if in the past few years Miami wasn't in the Big East, it would not have been dominating every Big East opponent they played, thus every other Big East schools' rankings would be higher. So all those rankings are pointless if you do not include Miami.

Either way, for you to say that the ACC has been more competitive as a conference is nonsence. Since FSU joined the ACC, they have been the Conference Champ every year except 2001 and last year (the most recent and telling year of the conference) nobody in the conference looked as if they deserved a BCS bid and FSU got blown out of the water in their bowl game.

If your interested in the past of ACC and how it compares to the Big East, do me a favor and tally up the total National Championships in football in the ACC and compare them to the Big East. Sorry, I just have to disagree with everything you have said in this thread.

ZOD
06-30-2003, 07:54 PM
What do you think the point of the thread is ?

It is to show that OTHER than Miami, the Big East is not the Football Giant that some would make it out to be..

I guess I could have been a little more clear about the purpose of the thread but I think in the original post I did give Miami "props" about winning 5 titles in the same time span as 5 ACC teams in football...

I have brought up the past (prior to FSU in the ACC)....

1981 Clemson National Champions
1990 Georgia Tech Co-National Champions

What ? Do you want prior to 1981 ?

OK...Without even looking it up, it goes like this..

Penn State, Michigan, Texas, Nortre Dame, Nebraska, USC, Oklahoma, UCLA, Texas, Nortre Dame, Nebraska, USC, Oklahoma, Michigan, or something there abouts.....lol.....Until you get back to Army, Harvard, Yale, and so forth...

Sorry...Without Miami...The Big East has always just plain sucked...

And how is the SEC coming into the debate ? They are not on the table here....When Miami gets the invite we can debate that one too....

I have to admit that just thinking about the comparison of the ACC to the SEC in football.... I think the SEC would be a clear cut winner...

My point has been and will be that the ACC is just better than the Big East (for Miami of course)....

iceblizzard69
06-30-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Rrodr038


If your interested in the past of ACC and how it compares to the Big East, do me a favor and tally up the total National Championships in football in the ACC and compare them to the Big East. Sorry, I just have to disagree with everything you have said in this thread.

Now he is going to bring up Clemson's National Championship in 1981 and think people care that they won some title 20 years ago but are now a mediocre program that can't recruit the best players in its own state (Demitris Summers!)

ZOD
06-30-2003, 08:04 PM
And an Oh! BTW...

It really doesn't matter much to me in the grand scheme of things...Sure I check the records each year to see what's going on but my primary focus during football season is the Dolphins...I don't have time for much else...

What has made me livid though on more than one occassion is to listen and read some of the comments about the comparison between The Big East and The ACC coming out of the frothing mouths of the Northeastern media...

"The ACC is a Basketball Conference"..

"The Big East is a Football (Money) Conference"..

What do those two sentences really say ???...

I think I have shown that in comparison the ACC stacks up very well in the catergory of being a Football (Money) Conference when compared to the Big East...

So what are these people trying to say ? Are they trying to say that it's a wash...

Obviously, it's not......From a CASH and competitiveness standpoint....

ZOD
06-30-2003, 08:07 PM
Ice,

He asked for the past...

"If your interested in the past of ACC and how it compares to the Big East, do me a favor and tally up the total National Championships in football in the ACC and compare them to the Big East. Sorry, I just have to disagree with everything you have said in this thread."

And I must say that your last comment wreaks of Smack talk instead of facts to debate...

Keep your eye on the ball !!!!!

Rrodr038
06-30-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by 1972dolphins
What do you think the point of the thread is ?

It is to show that OTHER than Miami, the Big East is not the Football Giant that some would make it out to be..

I guess I could have been a little more clear about the purpose of the thread but I think in the original post I did give Miami "props" about winning 5 titles in the same time span as 5 ACC teams in football...

I have brought up the past (prior to FSU in the ACC)....

1981 Clemson National Champions
1990 Georgia Tech Co-National Champions

What ? Do you want prior to 1981 ?

OK...Without even looking it up, it goes like this..

Penn State, Michigan, Texas, Nortre Dame, Nebraska, USC, Oklahoma, UCLA, Texas, Nortre Dame, Nebraska, USC, Oklahoma, Michigan, or something there abouts.....lol.....Until you get back to Army, Harvard, Yale, and so forth...

Sorry...Without Miami...The Big East has always just plain sucked...

My point has been and will be that the ACC is just better than the Big East (for Miami of course)....

No one ever has made the Big East to be a giant in college football even with Miami. They are a second or maybe third tier conference in comparison to the Big 12s, SECs, Pac-10s and Big 10s. All I know is that the Big East with Miami and Virginia Tech is better, or atleast equal to, than the ACC with just FSU.

You missed Pittsburgh in 1975 and 2 more times in the 30s-50s but...then again you missed my point entirely. Its not really fair to compare the Big East without Miami to the ACC with FSU. Its not even really fair to compare the Big East without Miami to the ACC without FSU. Both of those teams define their respective conferences and without them, who knows where the conferences would be. If we are talking Big East w/o Miami and Virginia Tech compared to the ACC (now) of course there is no comparison. But if we are talking as it has been with UM and Virginia Tech in the Big East, there is no reason to say the ACC is better. Even then, from a competetive standpoint, as I already said, UM's schedule in 2003 won't be easier than it will in 2004, in fact I belive it will be more difficult in 2003. UM's decision to move to the ACC is purely about the money and has nothing really to do with competitiveness. Shalala (UMs President) even went so far today on Sports Talk (560 AM in Miami) as to say that had the Big East been able to put up the same amount of money as the ACC, UM (and thus Virginia Tech) would have stayed in the Big East. They might be better off in the ACC in terms of money, but as far as competetiveness there is no question that staying in the Big East, as well as maintaining their current out of conference schedule was the better play. ACC really is not as impressive a football conference as you think it is...