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View Full Version : Offensive First Guys Missing the Point?



SF Dolphin Fan
03-28-2007, 10:47 PM
I saw every Dolphin game and Miami needs offense in the worst way. But I also feel that fans are overrating the team's defense, often pointing to its #5 ranking in support of going offense, offense, offense in the draft. True, the defense was highly rated but its best players - Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Joey Porter and Vonnie Holiday - are all 30+. This team needs a young playmaker on defense as badly as it needs one on offense. Looking three years down the road, as every good team does, who are the playmakers on this defense? I believe Matt Roth will become a good player and Channing Crowder is solid, but that's about it. Thomas will be 37, Taylor 35, Holliday 34 and Porter 33. All four could be gone.

So if the best player on the board at #9 is defense, which I think is likely, why not go defense? The draft is seven rounds and offense will come, but I'd hate to see the team reach for a Ted Ginn at #9 over an Abomi Okoye, Pat Willis or Adam Carriker -- three guys who I think will become dominate defenders.

TexanPhinatic
03-28-2007, 10:58 PM
It all depends on what you consider a reach. You consider Ginn a reach, I would not.

The point is, why pass on an offensive playmaker which we desperately need, to add to a defense that has some age but is still performing well. Offensive need>defensive need at this point. Should no real playmaker be around (say Quinn/Russell/Ginn are all gone, i dont like Levi) then I wouldnt be opposed to Willis or Landry/Nelson, but for the moment we are good on D and can address THAT in the later rounds.

You work on the pieces that are broke and fix it rather than ignoring it and trying to prematurely stave off a breaking part. If we cant put more points on the board than we did last year we will be in the same boat.

Crowder52
03-29-2007, 10:58 AM
I saw every Dolphin game and Miami needs offense in the worst way. But I also feel that fans are overrating the team's defense, often pointing to its #5 ranking in support of going offense, offense, offense in the draft. True, the defense was highly rated but its best players - Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Joey Porter and Vonnie Holiday - are all 30+. This team needs a young playmaker on defense as badly as it needs one on offense. Looking three years down the road, as every good team does, who are the playmakers on this defense? I believe Matt Roth will become a good player and Channing Crowder is solid, but that's about it. Thomas will be 37, Taylor 35, Holliday 34 and Porter 33. All four could be gone.

So if the best player on the board at #9 is defense, which I think is likely, why not go defense? The draft is seven rounds and offense will come, but I'd hate to see the team reach for a Ted Ginn at #9 over an Abomi Okoye, Pat Willis or Adam Carriker -- three guys who I think will become dominate defenders.

Yes, absolutely they are missing the point. You don't limit yourself to one side of the ball in the first round, you take the player you think has the brightest future. Obviously you don't take a RB when you have Ronnie or something like that, but our D-Line and secondary especially could both use some young talent.

Nr. 54
03-29-2007, 11:37 AM
I like the BPA approach! No matter what side of the ball!

My (hopefully realistic) 3 Round Mock would be:
1. Landry S
2. Stanton QB
2b.Ugoh OT
3. Ben Patrick TE

I would rather take Carr than giving up a pick for thousqnd years old Green. And i think Carr is a lefty, which means LT wouldn´t be that much of a problem since we got Carey at RT!

BlueFin
03-29-2007, 11:59 AM
I saw every Dolphin game and Miami needs offense in the worst way. But I also feel that fans are overrating the team's defense, often pointing to its #5 ranking in support of going offense, offense, offense in the draft. True, the defense was highly rated but its best players - Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Joey Porter and Vonnie Holiday - are all 30+. This team needs a young playmaker on defense as badly as it needs one on offense. Looking three years down the road, as every good team does, who are the playmakers on this defense? I believe Matt Roth will become a good player and Channing Crowder is solid, but that's about it. Thomas will be 37, Taylor 35, Holliday 34 and Porter 33. All four could be gone.

So if the best player on the board at #9 is defense, which I think is likely, why not go defense? The draft is seven rounds and offense will come, but I'd hate to see the team reach for a Ted Ginn at #9 over an Abomi Okoye, Pat Willis or Adam Carriker -- three guys who I think will become dominate defenders.


The three defensive players you named are the three that really intrigue me.

I do think they are all excellent prospects who will thrive in the NFL, particullary Pat Willis who I think is a "can't miss" Pro Bowl linebacker.

But, I will defer to Mueller on this, I really didn't watch enough of Ginn this year to give him an overall grade, but I do understand where your coming from.

HEDAZHELAS24
03-29-2007, 12:14 PM
david carr is not a lefty but he is somewhat mobile which eases the LT job but we still need a top notch anchor over there or were never going anywhere...it all starts in the trenches

Lab3003
03-29-2007, 12:32 PM
It all depends on what you consider a reach. You consider Ginn a reach, I would not.

The point is, why pass on an offensive playmaker which we desperately need, to add to a defense that has some age but is still performing well. Offensive need>defensive need at this point. Should no real playmaker be around (say Quinn/Russell/Ginn are all gone, i dont like Levi) then I wouldnt be opposed to Willis or Landry/Nelson, but for the moment we are good on D and can address THAT in the later rounds.

You work on the pieces that are broke and fix it rather than ignoring it and trying to prematurely stave off a breaking part. If we cant put more points on the board than we did last year we will be in the same boat.

I 100% agree.

Austin Tatious
03-29-2007, 12:40 PM
This is an absolute great post SF Dolphin Fan. We need to draft BPA period, and we should every year. That's how you build a team for the long haul.

I suspect that Mueller gets that. Besides, he does not have the conflict of interest that inept coaches like Saban and Wanny had, where they make shortsighted personnel moves for constant immediate gratification.

If you take BPA, filling positions will take care of itself.

Landry at 9 would be a steal. Willis would be a good pick too. Carricker has great measurables and I would project will be far better and more well rounded than Grant Wistrom.

ticophin
03-29-2007, 01:24 PM
Landry at 9 would be a steal. Willis would be a good pick too. Carricker has great measurables and I would project will be far better and more well rounded than Grant Wistrom.


If Landry, Quinn, or any other top 8 elite prospects are gone, perfect scenario would be to move down 4-5 spots, get either Wilis, Carricker,Staley, Nelson, or 1 of the multiple WRs available, and then load them weapons in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. We need not only to think down the road, but to stike fear into our opponents with something other than our D. Let`s balance this team!

SF Dolphin Fan
03-29-2007, 10:27 PM
Yes, absolutely they are missing the point. You don't limit yourself to one side of the ball in the first round, you take the player you think has the brightest future. Obviously you don't take a RB when you have Ronnie or something like that, but our D-Line and secondary especially could both use some young talent.

Exactly. People keep forgetting that the draft is more than Round 1 and that this team needs help in a lot of areas, not just offense.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-29-2007, 10:29 PM
I like the BPA approach! No matter what side of the ball!

My (hopefully realistic) 3 Round Mock would be:
1. Landry S
2. Stanton QB
2b.Ugoh OT
3. Ben Patrick TE

I would rather take Carr than giving up a pick for thousqnd years old Green. And i think Carr is a lefty, which means LT wouldn´t be that much of a problem since we got Carey at RT!

I like your mock. Not sure what to expect from Ugoh, but he is a guy with talent. I've always liked Landry and I think Stanton would be a great qb for Cam to groom.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-29-2007, 10:32 PM
The three defensive players you named are the three that really intrigue me.

I do think they are all excellent prospects who will thrive in the NFL, particullary Pat Willis who I think is a "can't miss" Pro Bowl linebacker.

But, I will defer to Mueller on this, I really didn't watch enough of Ginn this year to give him an overall grade, but I do understand where your coming from.

Willis was way underrated until the combine and personal workouts. How many linebacker run in the 4.3 range with his kind of talent? I think he will be great. Agree with you on Ginn. I haven't seen enough of him, but I do question whether his hands are good enough to merit top 10 consideration.

maverick50
03-29-2007, 10:34 PM
sigh i sure miss having all our draft picks but most importatn its not the talent by itself that has doomed us, its the damn coahes and former gm that has ruined this franchise. :ninja: :boohoo:

SF Dolphin Fan
03-29-2007, 10:39 PM
This is an absolute great post SF Dolphin Fan. We need to draft BPA period, and we should every year. That's how you build a team for the long haul.

I suspect that Mueller gets that. Besides, he does not have the conflict of interest that inept coaches like Saban and Wanny had, where they make shortsighted personnel moves for constant immediate gratification.

If you take BPA, filling positions will take care of itself.

Landry at 9 would be a steal. Willis would be a good pick too. Carricker has great measurables and I would project will be far better and more well rounded than Grant Wistrom.

I think Jevon Kearse is a great example of that. Tennessee really needed a wide receiver, but Kearse was still on the board. They made the right choice and he was a big reason the team went to the super bowl. Can you imagine Miami adding someone like Okoye in the middle of the defense. You'd have Taylor and Porter coming from the outside with Okoye harrassing the qb in the middle. With that kind of move and a little more consistency at qb (Green could provide that) Miami could surprise.

JT#1
03-29-2007, 10:40 PM
Exactly. People keep forgetting that the draft is more than Round 1 and that this team needs help in a lot of areas, not just offense.
Lets say we go defense with our first round pcik and say we get willis, would he even start this year? And would he make a big enough impact on the team to immediatly improve us? Sure he can take over the reigns after Zach leaves/retires, but crowder has already shown he can one day step into that roll and do fine once Zach leaves. Now lets say we get hall, will his impact on defense translate onto the offensive having a shorter field enough that it improves how many points we can score? As for defensive line depth we have drafted players in previous drafts to provide some depth, we just don't know how good they can be because our d line is full of verterens.We didn't lose games last year cause of defense, our offense played like crap, our defense was the only reason we won anything and we already improved it drastically by signing porter.

OneHondo
03-29-2007, 10:49 PM
This sure is a mixed bag, No matter who is selected in round 1 there will be a half dozen other players that people on this board will say we should have picked.
The Dolphins have so many needs and only a few picks to really address any of them. I would be totally happy if the players Miami selected in the first four rounds all become keepers and contribute to the team. Not like in years past when so many drafted players didn't stick and were wasted picks.
I realize the players selected in rounds 6 and 7 are pretty much a shot in the dark as far as them becoming a meaningfull pick, but maybe this year we will be lucky enough to hit there too.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-29-2007, 10:51 PM
It all depends on what you consider a reach. You consider Ginn a reach, I would not.

The point is, why pass on an offensive playmaker which we desperately need, to add to a defense that has some age but is still performing well. Offensive need>defensive need at this point. Should no real playmaker be around (say Quinn/Russell/Ginn are all gone, i dont like Levi) then I wouldnt be opposed to Willis or Landry/Nelson, but for the moment we are good on D and can address THAT in the later rounds.

You work on the pieces that are broke and fix it rather than ignoring it and trying to prematurely stave off a breaking part. If we cant put more points on the board than we did last year we will be in the same boat.

Good post and I hear what you are saying. I'm not entirely sold on Ginn (his hands are not great), at least not at #9. I see him as perhaps the riskiest of the potential high draft picks. His speed certainly would add an electric element that this offense sorely needs and would force safeties to play back giving Ronnie Brown more running room. On paper it looks great, I'm just not sure that Ginn stacks up against the top defensive players who will likely be there when Miami picks. I honestly think that the best player on the board at #9 will be on the defensive side of the ball.

JT#1
03-29-2007, 11:01 PM
Good post and I hear what you are saying. I'm not entirely sold on Ginn (his hands are not great), at least not at #9. I see him as perhaps the riskiest of the potential high draft picks. His speed certainly would add an electric element that this offense sorely needs and would force safeties to play back giving Ronnie Brown more running room. On paper it looks great, I'm just not sure that Ginn stacks up against the top defensive players who will likely be there when Miami picks. I honestly think that the best player on the board at #9 will be on the defensive side of the ball.

I understand people wanting to pick the BPA but team need does need to be taken into consideration, esspecially if the defensive player is a LB or D lineman as they probly will have limited to almost zero playing time there first year and if your picking in the top 9 your 1st rounder needs to make some sort of impact their first year.

Shamboubou
03-30-2007, 09:20 AM
I saw every Dolphin game and Miami needs offense in the worst way. But I also feel that fans are overrating the team's defense, often pointing to its #5 ranking in support of going offense, offense, offense in the draft. True, the defense was highly rated but its best players - Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Joey Porter and Vonnie Holiday - are all 30+. This team needs a young playmaker on defense as badly as it needs one on offense. Looking three years down the road, as every good team does, who are the playmakers on this defense? I believe Matt Roth will become a good player and Channing Crowder is solid, but that's about it. Thomas will be 37, Taylor 35, Holliday 34 and Porter 33. All four could be gone.

So if the best player on the board at #9 is defense, which I think is likely, why not go defense? The draft is seven rounds and offense will come, but I'd hate to see the team reach for a Ted Ginn at #9 over an Abomi Okoye, Pat Willis or Adam Carriker -- three guys who I think will become dominate defenders.

The problem with that is this, we have those guys right now. We also are probably going to have those guys for another few years. Who knows really what the guys behind them are like because we haven't really seen what they have to offer. There is really no point in drafting more young talent to sit behind the vets when we might already have it here and not know it.

diehardfin
03-30-2007, 12:52 PM
:goof: i am very impressed with this thread and not because i think it is %100 correct but for the simple fact that a good point is being made for the other side of the ball. I for one think our first pick needs to be offense but after that secondary is a big need. If we cant get good value at either of those picks then i say yes to the best available or trade down. No matter what we think the team will have a draft biard and they will follow that. unless we are tading up for russel or johnson we should stay put.:bighug:

cheyannefan
03-30-2007, 03:51 PM
Yes, absolutely they are missing the point. You don't limit yourself to one side of the ball in the first round, you take the player you think has the brightest future. Obviously you don't take a RB when you have Ronnie or something like that, but our D-Line and secondary especially could both use some young talent.

I agree, but you also don't take a guy in the top 10 who is not going to be in the mix for a starting position. The top 10 in the draft is for PLAYMAKERS. Ted Ginn Jr. is a PLAYMAKER. Yes Landry, Willis, Carriker and everyone else are going to be great players but we need a playmaker on offense so if he is there take him. If not then look at those other guys. I am tired of going through drafts and seeing defensive guy after defensive guy be taken. Last year went defense first when we needed offensive. That guy didn't even get major playing time until the end of the year. We need an offensive guy that will be on the field immediately.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-30-2007, 10:05 PM
Lets say we go defense with our first round pcik and say we get willis, would he even start this year? And would he make a big enough impact on the team to immediatly improve us? Sure he can take over the reigns after Zach leaves/retires, but crowder has already shown he can one day step into that roll and do fine once Zach leaves. Now lets say we get hall, will his impact on defense translate onto the offensive having a shorter field enough that it improves how many points we can score? As for defensive line depth we have drafted players in previous drafts to provide some depth, we just don't know how good they can be because our d line is full of verterens.We didn't lose games last year cause of defense, our offense played like crap, our defense was the only reason we won anything and we already improved it drastically by signing porter.

As far as Willis goes, I think three things could happen. One the team trades Zach Thomas, which I don't think is likely and I wouldn't want to see. Two, Willis essentially shares time with Thomas and Crowder. Zach doesn't need 60 snaps a game anymore, maybe with 40 his career would last a little longer. Three, Willis beats out Crowder. Crowder is solid, but I think Willis could beat him out.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-30-2007, 10:10 PM
I understand people wanting to pick the BPA but team need does need to be taken into consideration, esspecially if the defensive player is a LB or D lineman as they probly will have limited to almost zero playing time there first year and if your picking in the top 9 your 1st rounder needs to make some sort of impact their first year.

I think both Carriker and Okoye would start right away. I also think Willis would get a lot of starting time. Miami would figure a way to get him in, maybe splitting time with Crowder and Thomas.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-30-2007, 10:15 PM
:goof: i am very impressed with this thread and not because i think it is %100 correct but for the simple fact that a good point is being made for the other side of the ball. I for one think our first pick needs to be offense but after that secondary is a big need. If we cant get good value at either of those picks then i say yes to the best available or trade down. No matter what we think the team will have a draft biard and they will follow that. unless we are tading up for russel or johnson we should stay put.:bighug:

Johnson would be an exciting addition to this team. Wonder what it would take to trade up for him. I'm assuming Russell goes to Oakland and that Detroit takes Quinn. I don't see the Lions passing up on a potential franchise qb, when Jon Kitna is their current starter. That means maybe Johnson would go third to Cleveland. Ginn scares me a bit, to be honest. But, on the other hand, his electric speed and ability to return kicks might mean he touches the ball 7-10 times a game.

retarmyfinfan
03-30-2007, 10:27 PM
I like the BPA approach! No matter what side of the ball!

My (hopefully realistic) 3 Round Mock would be:
1. Landry S
2. Stanton QB
2b.Ugoh OT
3. Ben Patrick TE

I would rather take Carr than giving up a pick for thousqnd years old Green. And i think Carr is a lefty, which means LT wouldn´t be that much of a problem since we got Carey at RT!

I would consider that a good draft. Somewhere along the line we need to get another CB though. Nobody really talks about the need for CB, but we have lots of room to upgrade in that position. Would Leon Hall be a good value at #9?