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Boomer
03-31-2007, 05:04 AM
This is how I see it on March 31st 2007. I refuse the right to change my mind ;)

1. Calvin Johnson
Quite possibly the best player I've graded in 15 years. In a way I hate to be so high on a WR who might only handle the ball 5/6/7 times a game, but what is there not to like? Tremendous hands, a sharp route runner, with great speed and an extra gear. He's strong, he's physical, he's aggressive going after the ball and he's a great kid. Down at the Disney Pre-Combine camp, he worked harder than anyone and any team picking him not called the Oakland Raiders is getting one of the steals of this draft or any draft. I honestly can't find a flaw in his game. He has only caught 127 of 271 passes thrown at him, but Reggie Ball is his QB, so you can salt that one away. Just a disgustingly talented individual.


2. Adrian Peterson.
He's been #2 on my board behind CJ since the aftermath of last years draft and nothing has changed. If he can stay healthy, then he has Hall of Fame ability. I mean that. The best back to come down the pipe since Barry Sanders. I have no issue over the upright style – didn't hurt Dickerson, doesn't hurt Larry Johnson. Watching AP run is like going to the Tate Gallery in London or the Metropolitan Museum in New York. It’s art. He has everything in his game to be one of the greats.


3. Brady Quinn.
Not buying any of the nonsense that has surrounded his draft 'off-season'. A brilliant leader of men, as hard working off the field as he is good on it. From diet to tape study, from weight room work, to finding sports that compliment his ability – his work with Zbikowski as a boxer for example. If Miami ended up with him, it'd be a happy day in the Clancy house. I think he's the sort of player that you win Superbowls with and I'm certain that Cam views him as the sort of player that he can work with for a decade and build Miami into something dominant.


4. Joe Thomas
I've said it before, I don't think he's in the same class as D'Brickashaw Ferguson last year, but he's a good player. Wants to win, as evidenced by playing defense to help the team only to tear up his knee. Scouts say he reminds them of a better Paul Gruber and I can totally see that. He has some issues with regards sinking his hips in pass pro, but he has brilliant feet, and in terms of getting to the 2nd level, he's quick and he’s utterly relentless. He's truly poetry in motion down the field. Absolutely will not accept anything less than the best. Got to like that.


5. Patrick Willis
Beast. A can't miss prospect, IMO and I don't say that a lot. Can play MLB or the weakside. Has it all. Needs to continue to work on the pass coverage, but he improved that side of his game in 2006. He's quick, smart, a great kid, and uber-productive. He's AJ Hawk, he's Randy Gradishar. Another quick twitch guy who works through trash and is forever around the ball. Ridiculously safe pick.


6. Adam Carriker
Another Beast. I personally saw him a couple of times in 2006 and followed his game closely and didn't think he had a 'great' year. But he played well enough and you can't argue with the attitude from moment 1 of this draft process; he's re-written the textbook for attitude, application, dedication and flat out ability. He can be a 3 or a 5 technique guy for us and whilst he's probably not going to be a 12/14 sack guy, his ability to collapse the pocket, to shut down the run and chase down plays from the backside make him a very valuable commodity . Looks like another can't miss guy. The white Richard Seymour.


7. Ted Ginn Jr.
This might be considered high, but this is a legitimate 4.2 forty guy, who can catch, who hasn't gotten close to scraping the ceiling of his talent. I’ve said it for ages, but his x-factor ability on offense, to dominate that strong side of the field and to absolutely have to be accounted for on every play, makes him so valuable. And we haven’t even talked return game. An offensive guru like Cam should be able to get him the ball as a WR as the Z, in the slot, on reverses, middle screens, you could line him up as a back or even as a run/pass option at QB. AND he can play some corner as well if need be. Has the work ethic and mentality to dominate.


8. Gaines Adams
I want to see him be more consistent and play with more fire. I was fascinated to read a scout at Indy say the following; "You wish he had a little more glass in his diet. He is a very casual, laid-back person. Gotta question his toughness." But he's got all the ability in the world. He can be a devastating pass rusher, he's a quick twitch guy who, when he turns it on, can be unblockable. Would be higher if he didn't loaf so much.


9. Amobi Okoye
Ridiculous talent when you consider his age and experience. Fast, athletic, he looks unblockable at times, but needs to show me he can play with sustained power. Seems to be able to add and shed weight easily, but it would be nice to get him commit ether to add 15/20lbs and play the nose or stick at around 295/300 and play that Warren Sapp role in a Tampa 2. Scouts wonder if he's too tightly wound and too analytical in his play, but with the right coaching, he could be special. The concern would be that if you sign him to a 4 year deal, he's going to be a free agent before he even hits his prime.


10. Reggie Nelson
A JUCO transfer, he's a little undersized weight wise, but he's ripped, he's thick and he has a big bubble, which he uses to perfection when he brings the load. Really rangy, ridiculously athletic and outstanding when the ball's in the air. He just makes plays and you can't argue with what he brings to the table as an all rounder. I actually think he could play SS for Miami as well as the free.


11. Jamaal Anderson
Would be significantly higher if not for the fact that he dominated over such a small period of time. But his upside is off the charts. He's quick, he can rush the passer, he has the arms and the lean to get under a tackle and he can stand up against the run, although I don't think he plays it as well as some do and I wish he flowed to the ball more consistently in the run game. 13.5 sacks 19.5 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and 26 pressures make him tough to ignore. He was very highly rated coming out of HS so he's not come totally from no-where. A little buyer beware.


12. LaRon Landry
Boom. Lights out hitter. Big, powerful player who can fill the box and unleash on a runner or on a WR who dares test the middle. Brilliant blitzer as well. I love his instincts and his ability to diagnose and get to the ball carrier in a hurry. My concerns about him are two-fold. I know that scouts have worries about him and how smart he is, whilst I wonder just how polished he is when the ball's in the air and just how much of a weak spot that might become.


13. Darrelle Revis
Have liked this kid since forever. Can play cover or zone, has great size, good speed, but what I love is his instincts to drop off a route and come underneath to make the play and his ability against the run. I actually think his best position might be free safety, which is a compliment, considering I think he's the 13th best player in the draft as a CB. I want to see a better technique in his backpedal – he plays high, but he flips his hips without losing anything and has good awareness of the ball. Love him.


14. Leon Hall
Fundamentally sound corner. Probably not in the mould of a great, All Pro type, but likely to be a pretty solid #1 for 6/7 years. Like Revis he has punt return ablities. He covers well, tackles well, runs well, he's smart. He's good. Really good. But just not great. Thought he had a disappointing senior season.


15. JaMarcus Russell
Greatest arm I've ever seen. Unquestionably. Seen a lot of him at LSU and can't help but be impressed with his progression as a passer. But the mental side of his game hasn't progressed at all. I think he'll get baffled by NFL coverages and make a lot of mistakes and throw a lot of picks. Can't see how anyone would spend the #1 pick on a guy who turns up to the biggest job interview of his life carrying the flab he did, with the questionable work ethic. I don't know how much he really loves the game. But back to the arm; one of the games I saw this year was against Ole Miss and he made a play deep in his own territory, spun out of two tackles, shifted towards the weak side sideline and then slung it about 70 yards into double coverage to Dwayne Bowe. Sick.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 05:06 AM
And if I was to take it to 20, my next 5 would be:

16. Chis Houston
17. Levi Brown
18. Jarvis Moss
19. Robert Meacham
20. Alan Branch

Kdawg954
03-31-2007, 06:24 AM
Good info Boomer, thanks.

I have been sleeping on Carriker, is he that good to be above Adams, Okoye and Anderson?

Vendigo
03-31-2007, 06:27 AM
That's one of the best big boards I've seen in quite some time, Boomer. And a finde read as well, I might add. Thanks for the effort.

I understand that you ranked the players according to talent, instead of value, which is why I can't (and won't) question you ranking Willis in front of Carriker, which struck me as odd at first glance. Personally, I have Carriker ahead of Willis because he's more versatile and plays a "value position". In terms of pure talent, however, it's absolutely legitimate to rank Willis ahead of Carriker.

I'm still not that big a fan of Levi Brown (I like Joe Staley better), but you can't argue about him being in the top 20. The one player I have some problems with in your list is Ted Ginn. As long as he doesn't run the 4.2 or 4.3 you mentioned, I don't see him there. He's definitely a wildcard who could easily crack the top 10, but at the moment, there's just too many questions for my taste. In addition, I don't see you mentioning his questionable route running, which I'm rather concerned about. Getting separation in the NFL, in my opinion, is as much a question of route running as it is a question of pure speed. Even if he clocks at 4.2 during his workouts, I'd be concerned if he can manage to get open on a regular basis. I definitely think that you can work on the running, but I'm not sure if he's got top 10 written on him with this concern.

If it's not too much to ask for, I'd be curious about which players you have on your list for the #40 pick. I'm currently working on a list for a mockdraft game I'm taking part in, and I'm having a hard time getting together more than five or six players I really like at this position.

Vendigo
03-31-2007, 06:35 AM
I have been sleeping on Carriker, is he that good to be above Adams, Okoye and Anderson?

In my most humble opinion: absolutely. Carriker is one of the most versatile players of this draft (he can play either 3-4 or 4-3 DE and 4-3 DT as well), he's got all the work ethic you're looking for, had a great senior bowl and is athletic to the point of being scary. While Adams might me the better pure pass-rusher, Carriker is an all-around end in the likes (as Boomer has already pointed out) of Richard Seymour. And those are incredibly hard to find. In addition, he'd be a near perfect fit for Capers' defense: He can play end in the 3-4 when Taylor lines up as OLB (now that's a duo to be scared of) and DT when Taylor plays end in the 4-3.

Fingers
03-31-2007, 07:47 AM
Boomer,

Given your rankings, and if Quinn is gone by the 9th pick, would you select Willis over Ginn despite Miami's obvious offensive needs? There is a school of thought that unless players are very closely ranked, a team should choose the higher ranked player over the need position or the teams overall talent level will ultimately suffer. Your thoughts?

phinsfan1221
03-31-2007, 07:47 AM
nice job boomer very good analysis just think your spot for russell is to low and i like landry over nelson,ginn at 7 lets see how he runs first but you could be right on

Elliott 1
03-31-2007, 08:07 AM
Why no icon?

showstopper
03-31-2007, 08:13 AM
Just as good, if not better than alot of draft publications out there. You rock BOOM!!!!

Vendigo
03-31-2007, 08:37 AM
There is a school of thought that unless players are very closely ranked, a team should choose the higher ranked player over the need position or the teams overall talent level will ultimately suffer.

It will. There are situations in which it makes sense to ignore that possiblity (if you are just one or two players away from being a serious SB contender, for example), but generally speaking, I would argue that the whole point of the draft is to infuse young talent into your roster. If you want to fill needs, do so in FA. This is particularly true for top 10 picks, in my opinion. You don't want a single or double here, you want a home run. I'd rather take one great player instead of two good ones, even if the good ones fill glaring needs and the great one doesn't. Take the Jason Allen pick last year (I still don't buy that he was the #1 ranked player on our draft board - but if he was, it was one heck of a strange draft board). It filled an obvious need (well, at least it was supposed to), but it didn't add the amount of talent you'd like to have in the first round.

In the case of Willis versus Ginn, I'd go for Willis. While both have the potential to become great players instead of "merely" good ones, Willis is a can't miss prospect. And that's exactly what I'd be looking for with a team that can't afford to miss anymore.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 08:53 AM
Why no icon?

It's the draft forum.

Sensible people know what to expect, as the give-away is in the title.

emocomputerjock
03-31-2007, 09:30 AM
Excellent as always Boomer. These forums are better for having knowledgable people like you around this time of year. :happydrin

rev kev
03-31-2007, 09:38 AM
Outstanding again

Boomer
03-31-2007, 09:59 AM
Good info Boomer, thanks.

I have been sleeping on Carriker, is he that good to be above Adams, Okoye and Anderson?

There is less boom and bust in Carriker. The work ethic, the heart, the business nature, the way he showed up in Indy physique wise, the speed and change direction ability for such a big man. Okoye and Anderson have monstrous upside's and Carriker isn't going to come in and surprise you with the extraordinary, but he'll give you a decade of quality.

BlueFin
03-31-2007, 10:11 AM
Nice board Boom, not much to argue with there.

I am one that is beginning to wonder if passing on Patrick Willis may be the type decision that harkens back to bypassing Ray Lewis for Daryl Gardener.

Not to say that Gardener wasn't a fine prospect or a very good player, but I think we can agree on which of those two will be enshrined in Canton one day.

I have this uneasy feeling Patrick Willis may end up being that good of a Pro.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:15 AM
That's one of the best big boards I've seen in quite some time, Boomer. And a finde read as well, I might add. Thanks for the effort.

I understand that you ranked the players according to talent, instead of value, which is why I can't (and won't) question you ranking Willis in front of Carriker, which struck me as odd at first glance. Personally, I have Carriker ahead of Willis because he's more versatile and plays a "value position". In terms of pure talent, however, it's absolutely legitimate to rank Willis ahead of Carriker.

I'm still not that big a fan of Levi Brown (I like Joe Staley better), but you can't argue about him being in the top 20. The one player I have some problems with in your list is Ted Ginn. As long as he doesn't run the 4.2 or 4.3 you mentioned, I don't see him there. He's definitely a wildcard who could easily crack the top 10, but at the moment, there's just too many questions for my taste. In addition, I don't see you mentioning his questionable route running, which I'm rather concerned about. Getting separation in the NFL, in my opinion, is as much a question of route running as it is a question of pure speed. Even if he clocks at 4.2 during his workouts, I'd be concerned if he can manage to get open on a regular basis. I definitely think that you can work on the running, but I'm not sure if he's got top 10 written on him with this concern.

If it's not too much to ask for, I'd be curious about which players you have on your list for the #40 pick. I'm currently working on a list for a mockdraft game I'm taking part in, and I'm having a hard time getting together more than five or six players I really like at this position.

Thanks.

With regards Brown, he's much more ready to start week 1 than Staley is. For all Joe's athleticism, he currently lacks fundamental strength to hold up against the bigger defender's he's going to face. Brown, whilst needing hand work in terms of placement and with regards staying square to his target, which he does too often, meaning he lunges too often, is only a coach away from being a valuable asset on the OL. He's a terrific run blocker, he's strong at the point and he's mobile. Plus he's a tremendous leader. My concern with Joe is that if you're picking a guy from a small school, who is a converted tight end, are you guaranteed he can start week 1?

The Ginn thing, check out my thread on him.

As for targets at 40:

Kevin Kolb, Drew Stanton, John Beck, Dwayne Jarrett, Jason Hill, Craig Davis, Anthony Gonzalez, Zach Miller, Justin Blalock, Arron Sears, Andy Alleman, Josh Beekman, Ben Grubbs, Tony Ugoh, Tank Tyler, Justin Harrell, Quentin Moses, Tim Crowder, Anthony Spencer, Ikaika Alama-Francis, LaMarr Woodley, Marcus McCauley, Jonathan Wade, Brandon Meriweather, eric Weddle.

That might be a target group.

BlueFin
03-31-2007, 10:18 AM
Thanks.

With regards Brown, he's much more ready to start week 1 than Staley is. For all Joe's athleticism, he currently lacks fundamental strength to hold up against the bigger defender's he's going to face. Brown, whilst needing hand work in terms of placement and with regards staying square to his target, which he does too often, meaning he lunges too often, is only a coach away from being a valuable asset on the OL. He's a terrific run blocker, he's strong at the point and he's mobile. Plus he's a tremendous leader. My concern with Joe is that if you're picking a guy from a small school, who is a converted tight end, are you guaranteed he can start week 1?

The Ginn thing, check out my thread on him.

As for targets at 40:

Kevin Kolb, Drew Stanton, John Beck, Dwayne Jarrett, Jason Hill, Craig Davis, Anthony Gonzalez, Zach Miller, Justin Blalock, Arron Sears, Andy Alleman, Josh Beekman, Ben Grubbs, Tony Ugoh, Tank Tyler, Justin Harrell, Quentin Moses, Tim Crowder, Anthony Spencer, Ikaika Alama-Francis, LaMarr Woodley, Marcus McCauley, Jonathan Wade, Brandon Meriweather, eric Weddle.

That might be a target group.

Speaking of pick 40, I have seen a lot of Sidney Rice and have been very impressed with him, do you not like him or do you just think he will be gone by number 40?

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:20 AM
Boomer,

Given your rankings, and if Quinn is gone by the 9th pick, would you select Willis over Ginn despite Miami's obvious offensive needs? There is a school of thought that unless players are very closely ranked, a team should choose the higher ranked player over the need position or the teams overall talent level will ultimately suffer. Your thoughts?

We think that we have the future MLB on the roster in Channing Crowder. But Willis could easily be that guy. If that's the case though, you're not really going to get value on the 9th overall pick in terms of being able to come in and contribute immediately which is clearly a pre-requisite with Miami. But the thinking might be that Willis is a better WLB than Crowder and so he starts there.

But in my mind that's addition by subtraction, because you haven't filled a hole at all; you've just put one of your better young players on the sidelines.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:20 AM
Speaking of pick 40, I have seen a lot of Sidney Rice and have been very impressed with him, do you not like him or do you just think he will be gone by number 40?

I like him a lot and just forgot him. He'd definitely be a target, IMO.

Thanks ;)

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:27 AM
nice job boomer very good analysis just think your spot for russell is to low and i like landry over nelson,ginn at 7 lets see how he runs first but you could be right on

No worries.

The Russell thing is a personal issue. I just don't buy that he's the #1 pick based on beating an average Irish team and throwing a few lasers in shorts and a t-shirt, when you weigh up the mistakes in his game and the work ethic.

You know, I can take a guy who's cocky or who's a bit different. But what I can't abide is a guy who turns up to the biggest job interview in his life looking the way he did. That turned me right off. And Lane Kiffin was right the other day at the league meetings when he said that Russell had a great arm, but in reality, how often do you throw it 70 yards? Twice a game?

As for Teddy, if he's running 4.37's at 85%, then the time is no issue. In fact really the time is no issue anyway, because if scouts don't see how quick he is on tape, then they have no business scouting in the 1st place.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:27 AM
Just as good, if not better than alot of draft publications out there. You rock BOOM!!!!

:)

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:28 AM
Excellent as always Boomer. These forums are better for having knowledgable people like you around this time of year. :happydrin

Thanks dude.

GRYPHONK
03-31-2007, 10:30 AM
Thanks alot for the info Boomer. I always enjoy your posts and definiitely value your analasys of players over just about nyones on here lol.

I have a couple questions for yah.

In your opinion with the new direction in coaching and GM of this team, do you see the Phins drafting BPA or need at 9?

Also, do you think Brady Quinn will be the Phins QB of the future? Do you see Cam mking a move to get him?

Lastly- If Quinn is not an option and Landry is on the board. Do you think Miami would take him nd if so would it be the right call in your opinion?

I am sorry, I know I am asking as if you're the coach. I would just like to know your opinion on that.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:33 AM
Blue,

Just thought I'd quantify what I mean about Rice, a kid I really like. The question over him in my eyes, with regards Miami, is can he play flanker? I think he can, although I know some don't. But look at his numbers - he ran a 4.41 at the Combine at 6034 and an even 200lbs. Straight off the bat that makes me think he can play there. I think it's not really up for debate that Robert Meacham can play that position and Meach ran a 4.42 and a 4.47 in Indy and then ripped a 4.41 at the Vols Pro Day this week in front of Mueller. Rice chose to stand on his Combine time. Buster only ran a 4.44 in Indy and as Meach ran the fastest time at the UT Pro Day, he clearly didn't match Rice's time, whilst Gonzo busted a 4.33 and a 4.38, I don't ever see him playing up to that speed and he never makes a big play. I see him as a possession type and not a number 1, whereas I can envisage Rice being that in time. One thing that, whilst not concerning me, interests me is that Rice's 2nd time was 4.50. That's quite a large differential between 1st and 2nd run. Only Reggie Ball, a converted QB had a bigger two time differential and frankly I don't count Ball's time as he's not going to factor in at the next level. I bet if I looked at TB and CB, the other two high speed positions, there wouldn't be a .09 differential. (OK, so I was wrong, Tyrone Breckenridge of Wazzu and Chaz Williams of Louisiana Monroe had .10 and .09 differentials at CB.) But the point remains.

When I watch him, he can get down the field and he's not afraid to give his body up for the ball. He gets to top speed in a hurry, but when you expect him to shift up a gear, he lacks that elite gear to really run away from people. But he's a long strider and as I said, he has a lot of TO in his game, although he looks a little high cut and could do with filling out that frame some up top. A guy with those measurables should be bigger than a flat 200lbs, I could see him in the 212/215 range without any discernable loss in speed. And you can't knock the exceptional hands.

I think you HAVE to have some form of reservations about a WR coming out of that system. But he was no mug coming out of high school - I think I remember correctly that he was the #1 rated offensive player in the state and was snared by Lou Holtz. This is a highly recruited kid who was down to SC, Florida, Miami, Tennessee, Georgia and Syracuse. And of course, playing in Spurrier's system rather than Holtz's means he's more liable to be a product of the Fun 'N Gun or whatever The Visor is calling his offense these days, but look at those other teams on that list; three of the four biggies are Georgia, Miami and Tenneessee, all running pro style systems. They had to believe that he wasn't going to be simply a guy that would flourish in a specific, rare type of offense. Also, he only played 2 seasons, which makes me think that any traits he's learned, can be unlearned.

As for his last season, which people have questioned, well, I'm not sure he dropped off the face of the earth. In 2005 he had 70 receptions for 1,143 yards (16.3 avg.) and 13 touchdowns, whereas last year he had 72 receptions for 1,090 yards (15.1 avg.) and 10 touchdowns. That's 2 more grabs, 53 less yards and 3 less touchdowns. Plus, with Newton and Blake Mitchell and Uncle Tom Cobbley and All at QB, that didn't help. What I did note of interest was how he played Chris Houston in 2006. In 2005, he struggled and was held to 4 catches, although one was a monstrous TD leap in the back of the endzone. In 2006, he dominated Houston, had him in fits to the tune of 7-126. And of course, Houston man handled every high round WR he faced this year.

I think, as I said, he needs to fill out and hit the weight room to get up to around 210/212 adding about a stone of muscle, but I think he can be a player at the next level. He's still raw in all aspects of his game, so I wouldn't expect a lot out of him in year 1. But a nice player.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:34 AM
Outstanding again

Cheers mate.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 10:36 AM
Nice board Boom, not much to argue with there.

I am one that is beginning to wonder if passing on Patrick Willis may be the type decision that harkens back to bypassing Ray Lewis for Daryl Gardener.

Not to say that Gardener wasn't a fine prospect or a very good player, but I think we can agree on which of those two will be enshrined in Canton one day.

I have this uneasy feeling Patrick Willis may end up being that good of a Pro.

I sort of agree, although you wonder in this era of FA and early contributing, just how quickly he'll make an impact considering he'd either be behind Zach or Channing and if he replaces Channing, then that's not really added to our team, per se, just taken a good, young player out of the line-up.

He's a hell of a player though.

Vendigo
03-31-2007, 10:41 AM
My concern with Joe is that if you're picking a guy from a small school, who is a converted tight end, are you guaranteed he can start week 1?

I agree with your concerns. From what I've heard and seen, though, my impression is that Joe will (or or at least has the potential to) eventually be the better LT one or two years down the road. In the worst case, you would have a decent left guard. In the best, you'd have a franchise LT. Levi Brown on the other hand has a lot of Vernon Carey in my opinion. He might become a good (albeit not great) LT or he might "just" be a decent RT. He's probably the better short term prospect, I agree, but he hasn't written "greatness" over him like Joe does under the right circumstances. So the question would be if you prefered a good starter in week 1 or a stud LT in two years. With almost every other position, I'd take the week 1 starter, but with LT, it might be wise to grab the more talented player to be set for the next decade, even if that means grooming him for one year. I see very little bust in Joe.


The Ginn thing, check out my thread on him.

Will do. Thanks.


As for targets at 40 ... That might be a target group.

I appreciate it. Thanks again. It's good to see that you're high on Eric Weddle as well. He seems to be flying under the radar a bit and I like him a lot. I also like Wendling in the 3rd, so it's going to be a tough call which one I'll target ...

shiznet
03-31-2007, 10:46 AM
boom has good thoughts
hi my name is shiznet

Fingers
03-31-2007, 10:55 AM
We think that we have the future MLB on the roster in Channing Crowder. But Willis could easily be that guy. If that's the case though, you're not really going to get value on the 9th overall pick in terms of being able to come in and contribute immediately which is clearly a pre-requisite with Miami. But the thinking might be that Willis is a better WLB than Crowder and so he starts there.

But in my mind that's addition by subtraction, because you haven't filled a hole at all; you've just put one of your better young players on the sidelines.

Fair enough. I appreciate your input.

Dfan33
03-31-2007, 11:02 AM
Boomer:

Like you, I am fairly high on Ginn. However, IMO I would utilize him as a #1 CB most of the time, and then as a flanker on 3rd down situations and on the 2 minute drills. I think with his speed and hands, in time he could literally shut down one side of the field like Champ Bailey. As a QB I would be scared of throwing the ball to his side of the field. Thus, he could potentially solve two issues for us (#1 CB and opening up the passing game in passing down situations). Your thoughts?

Boomer
03-31-2007, 11:05 AM
Thanks alot for the info Boomer. I always enjoy your posts and definiitely value your analasys of players over just about nyones on here lol.

I have a couple questions for yah.

In your opinion with the new direction in coaching and GM of this team, do you see the Phins drafting BPA or need at 9?

Also, do you think Brady Quinn will be the Phins QB of the future? Do you see Cam mking a move to get him?

Lastly- If Quinn is not an option and Landry is on the board. Do you think Miami would take him nd if so would it be the right call in your opinion?

I am sorry, I know I am asking as if you're the coach. I would just like to know your opinion on that.
Thanks.

Difficult re: best player/need. The cognescenti have talked about immediate impact, but it's tough to gauge.

If Miami can get Quinn, then yes, I think he's the target. There's been too much mentioned around the edges of scouting to think that he isn't a target and when you consider the Trent Green thing and look at how Brady so perfectly fits a Cam Cameron QB, then you have to think he's the guy. I think if he gets to 5/6, then we'll jump. That's a big IF though.

If Landry's there, do we take him? Depends what you intend to do with Jason Allen. If you put him at CB, then he's back to year zero again. If you keep him at FS, then you can build on the strides he made late in the year. That would seem to nullify Landry, although he can easily play SS I think, because of the way he plays the run and attacks the LOS.

I think Miami would look elsewhere - Okoye, Carriker, Ginn, Brown, etc.

RenoFinFan
03-31-2007, 11:09 AM
Nice Post...as much as I have disagreed with the idea of Miami drafting Ginn I am in total agreement with who the top 5 players are. I might even move Willis to #3 on the list behind CJ and AD. In all likelihood it would be Willis still on the board if Miami drafts at #9 of the top 5 and I would have no complaints at all if his name gets called despite obvious needs at other positions.

Nice to see someone call out Russell...OVERRATED! I think the Raiders would be "INSANE" not to take CJ which means the Raiders probably won't.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 11:09 AM
I agree with your concerns. From what I've heard and seen, though, my impression is that Joe will (or or at least has the potential to) eventually be the better LT one or two years down the road. In the worst case, you would have a decent left guard. In the best, you'd have a franchise LT. Levi Brown on the other hand has a lot of Vernon Carey in my opinion. He might become a good (albeit not great) LT or he might "just" be a decent RT. He's probably the better short term prospect, I agree, but he hasn't written "greatness" over him like Joe does under the right circumstances. So the question would be if you prefered a good starter in week 1 or a stud LT in two years. With almost every other position, I'd take the week 1 starter, but with LT, it might be wise to grab the more talented player to be set for the next decade, even if that means grooming him for one year. I see very little bust in Joe.

I think that's fair enough, although to have a Vernon Carey type at LT and the real thing at RT, is no problem in my eyes.

Joe certainly has the bigger ceiling, but I think the bust factor is greater because of where he's come from.




I appreciate it. Thanks again. It's good to see that you're high on Eric Weddle as well. He seems to be flying under the radar a bit and I like him a lot. I also like Wendling in the 3rd, so it's going to be a tough call which one I'll target ...

Weddle is a superb player. Wouldn't surprise me to see the Pats leave round one with him. What a versatile kid he is.

Retnuhrace
03-31-2007, 11:11 AM
I like how you made the rankings based on what YOU think, with some surprises in there. Great job Boomer, although I do disagree with some of the rankings (Quinn & Carriker too high for me). However, I'm with you on Russell, and I wholeheartedly agree with your assesment of him (as not being the cant-miss prospect that many think he is)... although I'd probably also put Quinn around the same 15ish area.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Boomer:

Like you, I am fairly high on Ginn. However, IMO I would utilize him as a #1 CB most of the time, and then as a flanker on 3rd down situations and on the 2 minute drills. I think with his speed and hands, in time he could literally shut down one side of the field like Champ Bailey. As a QB I would be scared of throwing the ball to his side of the field. Thus, he could potentially solve two issues for us (#1 CB and opening up the passing game in passing down situations). Your thoughts?


Remember, he hasn't played CB since about game 5 of his freshman season, so that would be asking him a lot. What I think you'll see is him playing WR, KR, PR, utility TB/QB and maybe some dime coverage, but I think it would take a while to turn him back into a pure corner.

GRYPHONK
03-31-2007, 11:12 AM
Thanks.

Difficult re: best player/need. The cognescenti have talked about immediate impact, but it's tough to gauge.

If Miami can get Quinn, then yes, I think he's the target. There's been too much mentioned around the edges of scouting to think that he isn't a target and when you consider the Trent Green thing and look at how Brady so perfectly fits a Cam Cameron QB, then you have to think he's the guy. I think if he gets to 5/6, then we'll jump. That's a big IF though.

If Landry's there, do we take him? Depends what you intend to do with Jason Allen. If you put him at CB, then he's back to year zero again. If you keep him at FS, then you can build on the strides he made late in the year. That would seem to nullify Landry, although he can easily play SS I think, because of the way he plays the run and attacks the LOS.

I think Miami would look elsewhere - Okoye, Carriker, Ginn, Brown, etc.

Nice nice. Thanks again for the info.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 11:17 AM
Nice Post...as much as I have disagreed with the idea of Miami drafting Ginn I am in total agreement with who the top 5 players are. I might even move Willis to #3 on the list behind CJ and AD. In all likelihood it would be Willis still on the board if Miami drafts at #9 of the top 5 and I would have no complaints at all if his name gets called despite obvious needs at other positions.

Nice to see someone call out Russell...OVERRATED! I think the Raiders would be "INSANE" not to take CJ which means the Raiders probably won't.

Thanks. Yeah, Willis is really good. Really good. How anyone can talk about Timmons or Beason as a better LB than Willis is beyond me.

The Russell thing surprises me. 3 drafts ago, I told Fin Heaven, about 7 weeks before the draft that Alex Smith and not Aaron Rodgers would be the QB the 49ers would pick, based on something I was told. I was vilified.

Then about 4 weeks before, I did a mock with Smith at 1 and Rodgers at 24 to Green Bay. And hell was unleashed upon me. Whilst I don't think Russell will fall that far, I will be stunned if the Raiders don't take Quinn, or Johnson. Personally I'd sign David Carr and then draft Johnson. That seems win/win to me.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 11:18 AM
Although I'd probably also put Quinn around the same 15ish area.


Can I ask why?

Boomer
03-31-2007, 11:18 AM
Nice nice. Thanks again for the info.

;)

MrEd
03-31-2007, 11:28 AM
Thanks. Yeah, Willis is really good. Really good. How anyone can talk about Timmons or Beason as a better LB than Willis is beyond me.

The Russell thing surprises me. 3 drafts ago, I told Fin Heaven, about 7 weeks before the draft that Alex Smith and not Aaron Rodgers would be the QB the 49ers would pick, based on something I was told. I was vilified.

Then about 4 weeks before, I did a mock with Smith at 1 and Rodgers at 24 to Green Bay. And hell was unleashed upon me. Whilst I don't think Russell will fall that far, I will be stunned if the Raiders don't take Quinn, or Johnson. Personally I'd sign David Carr and then draft Johnson. That seems win/win to me.

C'mon. I definitely can't agree with the Carr being a "win" situation?

Carr is Joey Harrington with a worst decision making ability. People here have nailed Culpepper to a cross about his "not making quick reads"...Carr is worst.

You can't blame Carr's sacks on his OL and Culpepper's on his slow reads. Carr obviously is a sack artist "and" interception artist because of his slow decision making.

I don't see OAK signing Carr. And I totally disagree with your "emotionally" based dislike for Russell.

Russell is the consensus top pick overall. Stop hatin Boom.

MrEd
03-31-2007, 11:32 AM
Can I ask why?

You'll probably get your answer from Mike Mayock, Mel Kiper Jr, and all the other draft experts who have Quinn dropping.

You're much too high on Quinn. And you have Carriker over Adams?

Now I do agree with a lot of your assessments though. I definitely like Ginn Jr at #9. I do like Reggie Nelson and was surprised how so many experts don't have him in the top 15.

But as much as I like Willis. I definitely think you have him too high and no way we draft a LB at #9. No way in heaven, earth, or hell.

But I do like most of your stuff though Boom. Good job. And I do like that you went with "your" feelings and not just bandwagoning with all the other draft gurus.

So good job.

OneHondo
03-31-2007, 11:36 AM
Boomer
Did you happen to see the highlight video on Brady Quinn that was posted on Youtube? I was already impressed by what I have seen and heard on Quinn but after seeing this video I am really impressed and wish there was someway the Phins could grab him.
Here is the link if you havent seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJgmeEH1lrE
Please take a look if you haven't already seen it.

MrEd
03-31-2007, 11:54 AM
Boomer
Did you happen to see the highlight video on Brady Quinn that was posted on Youtube? I was already impressed by what I have seen and heard on Quinn but after seeing this video I am really impressed and wish there was someway the Phins could grab him.
Here is the link if you havent seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJgmeEH1lrE
Please take a look if you haven't already seen it.

I'm more impressed by Ginn Jr's highlight video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WGyrgqOKZLg

Motion
03-31-2007, 11:57 AM
You'll probably get your answer from Mike Mayock, Mel Kiper Jr, and all the other draft experts who have Quinn dropping.



Since when?

YetanotherFan
03-31-2007, 12:00 PM
Boomer you never fail to impress. Great read again. I would not want to be the man to pick @ #9 if we had to chose between Willis and Ginn hehe. But man Ginn would be exciting to watch in a phins uniform.

shiznet
03-31-2007, 12:01 PM
boom has very good thoughts

fishypete
03-31-2007, 12:03 PM
Nice board Boom, not much to argue with there.

I am one that is beginning to wonder if passing on Patrick Willis may be the type decision that harkens back to bypassing Ray Lewis for Daryl Gardener.

Not to say that Gardener wasn't a fine prospect or a very good player, but I think we can agree on which of those two will be enshrined in Canton one day.

I have this uneasy feeling Patrick Willis may end up being that good of a Pro.

Willis may be the safe selection...at 9. Hard to pass on a linebacker that runs 4.38....and Zack isn't getting any younger. I'd still like to see the Dolphins trade back and use their picks on Staley and Kalil....but thats a different story.

EireTiger
03-31-2007, 12:04 PM
Test

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:06 PM
C'mon. I definitely can't agree with the Carr being a "win" situation?

Carr is Joey Harrington with a worst decision making ability. People here have nailed Culpepper to a cross about his "not making quick reads"...Carr is worst.

You can't blame Carr's sacks on his OL and Culpepper's on his slow reads. Carr obviously is a sack artist "and" interception artist because of his slow decision making.

I don't see OAK signing Carr. And I totally disagree with your "emotionally" based dislike for Russell.

Russell is the consensus top pick overall. Stop hatin Boom.

Jesus......it's like a car crash.

So can you explain why, if Harrington is a better decision maker, why Carr's career percentage rating is 4.5% better than Harringtons, why his QB rating is 7.4% better than Harringtons and why Carr's 3rd down completion percentage is 64.5% and Harringtons is 53.8%?

I suppose that passed you by?

I suppose you also forgot that Carr came in and had little talent around him, with only cursory refrains from Domanick Davis and one target in Andre Johnson, whereas Harrington had 1st round picks, nee franchise linemen in front of him, three 1st round pick wideouts and a 2nd round pick tailback and still couldn't perform like Carr. Same in Miami with 2 Pro Bowl receivers and the 2nd overall pick at TB and he struggled.

So in fact, you're talking rubbish.

Culpepper's issue was that in his previous years, he had the ability to choke down and creatv a play by moving the pocket and then releasing the ball. All of a sudden, his career trait, on show since he was at high school, had gone. Thus, he was going through the same progression he did in Minny, but when it came to choking down, the wheels weren't there.

And FLMAO @ "emotionally based" assessment on Russell. What a stupid thing to say. The assessment is based on the same standards as everyone elses - film study. He throws far too many stupid passes and you can confuse him with coverages. That's fact in college and it will be fact in the NFL.

And if he's the "consensus top pick overall", can you please tell me why, when polled on the basis of anonimity by Gil Brandt, did all 32 teams have Calvin Johnson as the consensus number one pick on all 32 boards?

And if a team with QB needs in the top 15 has Russell as a mid 2nd rounder, that would blow your stupid comment even further out of the water.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:11 PM
C'mon. I definitely can't agree with the Carr being a "win" situation?


So you think that drafting a QB with 75 career starts who had an horrific OL that got him hammered on almost every pass, to the point where he was being hit even before he could set up and then adding arguably the best prospect, regardless of position, in the past 15 years, is a worse choice than drafting a high risk QB with a lazy work ethic and bad decision making and then adding a Buster Davis to play WR in round 2.

You would be in a majority of 1.

I fully expect the Raiders to deal for either Byron Leftwich, Aaron Rodgers or sign David Carr, than take Russell.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:13 PM
You'll probably get your answer from Mike Mayock, Mel Kiper Jr, and all the other draft experts who have Quinn dropping.

You're much too high on Quinn. And you have Carriker over Adams?

Now I do agree with a lot of your assessments though. I definitely like Ginn Jr at #9. I do like Reggie Nelson and was surprised how so many experts don't have him in the top 15.

But as much as I like Willis. I definitely think you have him too high and no way we draft a LB at #9. No way in heaven, earth, or hell.

But I do like most of your stuff though Boom. Good job. And I do like that you went with "your" feelings and not just bandwagoning with all the other draft gurus.

So good job.

Quinn dropping? Where's that then?

And yes, Carriker over Adams. I'm sure you're itching to inform us all on your critiques of both, based on hours of tape breakdown, so the floor is yours.

:rolleyes2

fishypete
03-31-2007, 12:15 PM
Jesus......it's like a car crash.

So can you explain why, if Harrington is a better decision maker, why Carr's career percentage rating is 4.5% better than Harringtons, why his QB rating is 7.4% better than Harringtons and why Carr's 3rd down completion percentage is 64.5% and Harringtons is 53.8%?

I suppose that passed you by?

I suppose you also forgot that Carr came in and had little talent around him, with only cursory refrains from Domanick Davis and one target in Andre Johnson, whereas Harrington had 1st round pick, nee franchise linemen in front of him, three 1st round pick wideouts and a 2nd round pick tailback and still couldn't perform like Carr. Same in Miami with 2 Pro Bowl receivers and the 2nd overall pick at TB and he struggled.

So in fact, you're talking rubbish.

Culpepper's issue was that in his previous years, he had the ability to choke down and creatv a play by moving the pocket and then releasing the ball. All of a sudden, his career trait, on show since he was at high school, had gone. Thus, he was going through the same progression he did in Minny, but when it came to choking down, the wheels weren't there.

And FLMAO @ "emotionally based" assessment on Russell. What a stupid thing to say. The assessment is based on the same standards as everyone elses - film study. He throws far too many stupid passes and you can confuse him with coverages. That's fact in college and it will be fact in the NFL.

And if he's the "consensus top pick overall", can you please tell me why, when polled on the basis of anonimity by Gil Brandt, did all 32 teams have Calvin Johnson as the consensus number one pick on all 32 boards?

And if a team with QB needs in the top 15 has Russell as a mid 2nd rounder, that would blow your stupid comment even further out of the water.

I couldn't agree with you more Boomer. Russell is being over-hyped because he has a strong arm....but many see him as the same as Culpepper....strong arm...weak mind.
To be frank with you...I don't like either Russell or Quinn and I believe there's far more talent at QB in the mid rounds. What Carr did while playing with the Texans is scary...imagine if he had a real team supporting him...what could he do.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:15 PM
Boomer
Did you happen to see the highlight video on Brady Quinn that was posted on Youtube? I was already impressed by what I have seen and heard on Quinn but after seeing this video I am really impressed and wish there was someway the Phins could grab him.
Here is the link if you havent seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJgmeEH1lrE
Please take a look if you haven't already seen it.


I think I probably have seen it, but what it will show is a player with a good arm, with the ability make all the throws, who can put the deep ball on the outside shoulder away from the CB, who can hit the strike down the middle with touch and accuracy, who can move the pocket, make yards with his feet or throw on the run, who can lead his team and who will be a very good NFL QB.

PhinsRDbest
03-31-2007, 12:15 PM
So you think that drafting a QB with 75 career starts who had an horrific OL that got him hammered on almost every pass, to the point where he was being hit even before he could set up and then adding arguably the best prospect, regardless of position, in the past 15 years, is a worse choice than drafting a high risk QB with a lazy work ethic and bad decision making and then adding a Buster Davis to play WR in round 2.

You would be in a majority of 1.

I fully expect the Raiders to deal for either Byron Leftwich, Aaron Rodgers or sign David Carr, than take Russell.
Do you think the Browns will then take Russell instead of Quinn? God I hope so.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:18 PM
Boomer you never fail to impress. Great read again. I would not want to be the man to pick @ #9 if we had to chose between Willis and Ginn hehe. But man Ginn would be exciting to watch in a phins uniform.
Thanks.

The Confessor
03-31-2007, 12:20 PM
Willis may be the safe selection...at 9. Hard to pass on a linebacker that runs 4.38....and Zack isn't getting any younger. I'd still like to see the Dolphins trade back and use their picks on Staley and Kalil....but thats a different story.

Now we're talking. I would love to see Willis at 9 if Landry is gone. Then Best OT available, then Satale with second pick of the third...Of course Drew Stanton in second if still available.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:21 PM
I couldn't agree with you more Boomer. Russell is being over-hyped because he has a strong arm....

What Carr did while playing with the Texans is scary...imagine if he had a real team supporting him...what could he do.

I agree with you on those 2 points Mr G.

I know that Miami are pretty high on Kevin Kolb and whilst he still has that funky little quirk to his delivery and the ball doesn't always come out in a hurry - I want to see more snap in his arm - he's strong armed, accurate and very mobile. And a great kid to boot.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:22 PM
Test

icle

Boomer
03-31-2007, 12:24 PM
Do you think the Browns will then take Russell instead of Quinn? God I hope so.

There's a chance. I mean, I think we all know the relationship between Russell and Phil Savage and that Randy Lerner has demanded a new QB. The question is, Savage and Crennel are on the edge of the precipice in terms of job safety. Can they afford to pick 3rd and bring in a Russell who might not contribute for 2 seasons, by which time they've been whacked?

I don't see the signing of Jamal Lewis as anything long term or overly significant. I still think they look at Adrian Peterson.

fishypete
03-31-2007, 12:26 PM
I agree with you on those 2 points Mr G.

I know that Miami are pretty high on Kevin Kolb and whilst he still has that funky little quirk to his delivery and the ball doesn't always come out in a hurry - I want to see more snap in his arm - he's strong armed, accurate and very mobile. And a great kid to boot.

And he should be around in the early part of the 3rd round. I like Kolb...and thou many don't like the Palmer kid....he does have size and a decent arm...and I see him no better than a 6th rounder. A player that the Dolphins can work on...for a future trade.

The Confessor
03-31-2007, 12:26 PM
icle


:sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol: :sidelol:

PhinsRDbest
03-31-2007, 12:33 PM
There's a chance. I mean, I think we all know the relationship between Russell and Phil Savage and that Randy Lerner has demanded a new QB. The question is, Savage and Crennel are on the edge of the precipice in terms of job safety. Can they afford to pick 3rd and bring in a Russell who might not contribute for 2 seasons, by which time they've been whacked?

I don't see the signing of Jamal Lewis as anything long term or overly significant. I still think they look at Adrian Peterson.

I agree if my job was on the line this season I'd pick AP over a Rookie QB. If Russell and Quinn are available after 3 the Dolphins should be on the phone with the Bucs.

cnc66
03-31-2007, 12:33 PM
great stuff Boomer, thanks for all the effort and answering all the questions.... you need a taco.

EireTiger
03-31-2007, 12:57 PM
Nice post, very informative, but here’s some differing thoughts:

1) Quinn over Russell. I like Quinn and feel he is the only one of the two the Dolphins have a shot at. As such, I hope the Dolphins get him. However, I disagree with your assessment of Russell. Russell’s coaches noted that he was one of the hardest working players on the team for the last two years, constantly putting extra time in sudying film and breaking down opponents. He also consistently put in extra work with his WRs after practice. I think you are putting too much emphasis on his weight room work or lack thereof. He does not need to get stronger like a Brady Quinn may have needed. Two key areas where Russell is better than Quinn are arm strength and accuracy. As you stated, Russell has a much stronger arm than Quinn. While the need to throw the ball 80 yards is rare, the additional arm strength does have value in throwing deep outs and putting touch on longer passes. Russell is also more accurate than Quinn throwing from the pocket AND on the move. Look at how accurate Russell is thowing downfield while on the move. Even moving to his left he is accurate throwing 40 yards downfield. There are numerous examples of this. I think accuracy is one of the most important traits a QB needs. One other key point is look how many times Russell led his team from behind against quality opponents, victories on the road over top ten teams such as Alabama in ’05 and Tennessee and Arkansas in ’06. Home wins over Auburn and Florida in ’05. Not to mention the blowout of ND in ’06. IMHO, Russell is a better QB today and has a much higher ceiling than Quinn ( I still like Quinn). Russell should be the first pick though and the Phins will have no shot at him.

2) Ted Ginn. Taking a player this high who has so little proven skill at his primary position (WR) is scary to me. He is a very explosive player who has shown great return capabilities but as a WR he has many question marks. Can he catch in traffic? Will he go over the middle (not underneath routes)? Can he block downfield? With his frailty, will he hold up? Can he beat physical NFL CB’s off the line? As far as his frailty goes, many people try to compare him to Marvin Harrison. MH was a much more polished WR than Ginn and MH’s only question mark was his frailty, not his skill set. Ginn could turn out to be Santana Moss but he could also turn out to be Randal Hill or even a WR version of John Avery.

3) LaRon Landry. I’m surprised to see him below Reggie Nelson or even out o fthe top 10. Your comments about his ‘smarts’ are the first I’ve heard of this. Remember, as a true freshman Landry mastered the same complex system Saban runs that Troy Polomalu, Lawyer Milloy, Rodney Harrison and our own Jason Allen initially struggled with as pros. Primary run responsibilites, blitzing, deep coverage calls...That has to display some football aptitude. He was starting and helping with secondary calls as a true freshman on a National Championship team. The guy is 6’1” 215 lbs., runs a 4.35 forty, has double digit int’s fro his career, benches over 400 lbs and is one of the surest tackling safeties to come out in years. What’s not to like? I know you have him ranked high, just lower than most others.

4) Joe Thomas. In some of his games against quality opponents, I noticed he would get driven back into the QB. Do you have any more comments or conerns about him? Just curious.

Just some thoughts, great post.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 01:00 PM
great stuff Boomer, thanks for all the effort and answering all the questions.... you need a taco.

Thanks Marty. I'm starving hungry as well.

Geforce
03-31-2007, 01:56 PM
Very good read and I agree with your assesments of Willis and Revis. Willis ability to play inside or outside can only help the team who drafts him. If I'm not mistaken, he showed at the Senior Bowl that he is better in coverage than many thought he was.

Revis' ability to drop off his coverage to make the play underneath reminds me of what Sam Madison used to do.

Dolfan11
03-31-2007, 01:57 PM
The more I read about Boomer's opinions regarding Ginn, the more I become convinced he's the man to take at #9. As of right now, my options would be:

1) Brady Quinn to fall
2) Adrian Peterson to fall then trade it for pics
3) Ted Ginn Jr.

finfan54
03-31-2007, 01:59 PM
Speaking of pick 40, I have seen a lot of Sidney Rice and have been very impressed with him, do you not like him or do you just think he will be gone by number 40?

This is what I do not get about the love for Ginn. There are better WR's in this draft than Ginn IMO or who are just as good or are better all around aside from the ST ability. This draft is loaded with talent at WR.

Dwayne Bowe 6-2 4.5 (speed isnt everything at WR, playing football is)
Sidney Rice 6-4 4.5
Anthony Gonzalez 6-0 4.44
Jason Hill 6-1 4.32 (are you kidding me?) hows this for a steal?
David Clowney 6-0 4.36
Johnnie Lee Higgins 6-0 4.48
Brandon Myles 6-1 4.45
Yamon Figurs 5-11 4.30 Rising on my Fox sports list from 212.

WR's are a dime a dozen and where great value can be found in later rounds. WR's in the first rounds are huge risks to injury and attitude probs. This is how I put Ginn. Great talent, but very risky that high when the field is so full of very viable candidates just to name a few.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 02:09 PM
Nice post, very informative, but here’s some differing thoughts:

Good points, well made. Are you Irish, BTW?

Allow me to respond.


1) Quinn over Russell. I like Quinn and feel he is the only one of the two the Dolphins have a shot. As such, I hope the Dolphins get him. However, I disagree with your assesment of Russell. Russell’s coaches noted that he was one of the hardest working players on the team for the last two, constantly putting extra time in sudying film and breaking down opponents. He also consistently put in extra work with his WRs after practice. I think you are putting too much emphasis on his weight room work or lack thereof. He does not need to get stronger like a Brady Quinn may have needed. Two key areas where Russell is better than Quinn are arm strength and accuracy. As you stated, Russell has a much stronger arm than Quinn. While the need to throw the ball 80 yards is rare, the additional arm strength does have value in throwing deep outs and putting touch on longer passes. Russell is aldo more accurate than Quinn throwing from the pocket AND on the move. Look at how accurate Russell is thowing downfield while on the move. Even moving to his left he is accurate throwing 40 yards downfield. There are nuerous examples of this. One other key point is look how many times Russell led his team from behind against quality opponents, victories on the road over top ten teams such as Alabama in ’05 and Tennessee and Arkansas in ’06. Home wins over Auburn and Florida in ’05. Not to mention the blowout of ND in ’06. IMHO, Russell is a better QB today and has a much higher ceiling than Quinn ( I still like Quinn). Russell should be the first pick though and the Phins will have no shot at him.

With respect, Russell's coaches aren't likely to come out and say that he has a poor work ethic. I think that, whilst he may well do the film study, to ignore the weight work shows a lack of self discipline. In my book, you do something, you do it all. Quinn does it all. He hasn't got the arm, but he has the body and he does the film work and the extra catching with Rhema McKnight and Samardzjia, etc. For Brady to not match up to Russell in terms of arm strength is no issue. Passers from Otto Graham to Dan Marino and all points in between haven't matched up to Russell in arm strength.

Whilst Russell's career completion % is a little higher, when you break down the past 2 years, they are utterly comparable and Quinn is knocked down for his freshman year where he was thrown to the fire. 69 touchdowns to 14 picks over the past two years would say different for Quinn's accuracy and I have huge issues saying that Russell is more accurate. His performances have been inflated by the system and by the fact that he's had Dwayne Bowe, Buster Davis - both top 40 picks - and early Doucet, a likely 1st rounder next year, to aim at.

Look at the games in 2005, primarily against Florida and Arkansas where he made clumsy decisions. I look for progress year on year, but he was doing the same thing in 2004 and again in 2006 - Tennessee and Fresno State, as examples.

As for Russell beating superior teams, he had a superior team to Quinn. In another thread a while back, I showed just who Quinn had beaten and how, dispelling this theory that he can't win the big one. Hell, if not for a ridiculously beautiful touch pass by Matt Leinart, he'd have beaten USC.

I'll answer the rest in a minute as I'm logging off. Lap top is acting funny!

[/QUOTE]

finfan54
03-31-2007, 02:11 PM
Now to comment on Boom's top 15. I hold that it is easier to be critical than to put yourself and your knowledge out there and I also know Boom is a pimp for Ginn so........what i have said about Ginn is foregone conclusion as far as I am concerned.

Ginn would never make my top 15 because regardless of what anyone says about Ginns past, he has an injury problem or he would not be waiting so long to run. Ginn is one dimentional in many aspects of the game of football. He is lightning fast but many WR's have been that way and do not make it as big as projected. WR's are just risky overall. Not to say Ginn wont be a great player, but the Miami Dolphins do not need this guy as there #9 pick. Its just that simple.

OK, now Laron Landry not being smart. Right after mentioning his great instincts. What? forget about that notion.

Jemarcus Russell I just saw on NFL Network where Russel is moving around in the pocket and lays the ball right on target over the top of defenders on borken plays. This is the sign of greatness right there. Mayock compared him to John Elway except with the size and strength and the "flick of the wrist" long ball. To have Jemarcus Russell at 15 is just bad. Sorry Boom. Jemarcus Russell showed Brady Quinn who was the better QB in head to head and I dont want to hear about better defense yadda yadda yadda........you have to go against what you go against and Russell showed better all around reads and touch and moxy. I like Quinn alot though because if he has the talent around him, he will do the leadership job just fine. I would have Quinn around 5 or 6 and Russell at 2 behind Calvin Johnson.

Peterson is a good RB and great kid. I just wouldnt put him in the Hall of Fame right now.

More after I read it over again.

phinsfan1221
03-31-2007, 02:19 PM
No worries.

The Russell thing is a personal issue. I just don't buy that he's the #1 pick based on beating an average Irish team and throwing a few lasers in shorts and a t-shirt, when you weigh up the mistakes in his game and the work ethic.

You know, I can take a guy who's cocky or who's a bit different. But what I can't abide is a guy who turns up to the biggest job interview in his life looking the way he did. That turned me right off. And Lane Kiffin was right the other day at the league meetings when he said that Russell had a great arm, but in reality, how often do you throw it 70 yards? Twice a game?

As for Teddy, if he's running 4.37's at 85%, then the time is no issue. In fact really the time is no issue anyway, because if scouts don't see how quick he is on tape, then they have no business scouting in the 1st place.
so 4.37 at 85% what about 100% maybe sub 4.3?

finfan54
03-31-2007, 02:26 PM
I agree with Willis. I agree with the rest of the bunch and the comments I found interesting. Carriker has been rising but I wonder if he should be rated that high. But who am i to say differently? You do what you do at the next level and show it then.

Im still baffled about Russell. I think the guy has progressed this season just fine and I watched him a few times a few years ago and then this past year. He seems ready to lead the offense down the field progressively just fine. And I have seen him make big plays to come back and win under great pressure but make it look easy. Russell is going to be a great QB earlier than most in there careers because of the athletic ability and size. There is nothing wrong with him upstairs IMO. Everything else is fine generally.

Regan21286
03-31-2007, 02:37 PM
Good stuff Boomer.


And if I was to take it to 20, my next 5 would be:

16. Chis Houston
17. Levi Brown
18. Jarvis Moss
19. Robert Meacham
20. Alan Branch

This may just be me but I think Joe Staley's better than Levi Brown at least in terms of upside.


3. Brady Quinn.
Not buying any of the nonsense that has surrounded his draft 'off-season'. A brilliant leader of men, as hard working off the field as he is good on it. From diet to tape study, from weight room work, to finding sports that compliment his ability – his work with Zbikowski as a boxer for example. If Miami ended up with him, it'd be a happy day in the Clancy house. I think he's the sort of player that you win Superbowls with and I'm certain that Cam views him as the sort of player that he can work with for a decade and build Miami into something dominant.

Agreed 100%.


7. Ted Ginn Jr.
This might be considered high, but this is a legitimate 4.2 forty guy, who can catch, who hasn't gotten close to scraping the ceiling of his talent. I’ve said it for ages, but his x-factor ability on offense, to dominate that strong side of the field and to absolutely have to be accounted for on every play, makes him so valuable. And we haven’t even talked return game. An offensive guru like Cam should be able to get him the ball as a WR as the Z, in the slot, on reverses, middle screens, you could line him up as a back or even as a run/pass option at QB. AND he can play some corner as well if need be. Has the work ethic and mentality to dominate.

I suppose Ginn would qualify at this spot if he's healthy. Maybe it's the sour taste of Yatil Green in my mouth but until he shows he's fully healthy before the draft, I have my reservations.

finfan54
03-31-2007, 03:11 PM
Joe Staley didnt even know his correct blocking assignment in the Senior Bowl, then turned around and did it again. This can be blamed on the coaching in the game but Staley didnt prove that he was better than Brown at all. This is crap being brought on by people who do not correctly break down on a game to game basis and competition.

I would compare the levi Brown vs. Joe Staley at LT to the Vince Young vs. Jay Cutler at QB last year. Alot being said about one over the other without any regard to what they actually did or didnt do in college and just looking at potential and athletic ability compared to competition and what you actually accomplished.

Tupac Shakur
03-31-2007, 03:16 PM
thanks for that...i have a very simliar board, myself...our top 6 are identical.

i just would always put the playmaking DE over the playmaking WR in the case of Ginn, Jr. and Adams.

i'm going to send this to my draft guru friends and see what they say. i'm sure they will all be impressed, as i am.

TexanPhinatic
03-31-2007, 03:47 PM
Great stuff Boom as usual. Cant say I disagree about much really. Love Quinn and Ginn as well. Quinn is just a pure QB and everything you could want. Any chance the Phins could get him, and they need to take it-within reason, lets not pull a "trade our draft for Ricky" type thing.
Ginn is very underrated by many people on this board. It seems hes often just characterized as a "fast" WR. Lets get this straight. Hes not fast, hes faster than anyone else. And not just that, he PLAYS that fast! It seems everyone else is playing in slo-mo when hes around. Not to mention his ST ability. Sure hes a little raw, but he can still come in and be an effective day 1 starter and STILL have a massive ceiling to reach-scary! Hes quite simply a game changing player.
I have a few reservations about the ankle, but then again, its just an ankle sprain. Some of those things can take a long time to heal, but unlike a fracture its not a recurring thing. If the docs check him out Im good.

Im not sure what to think about Leon Hall. He got absolutely torched by Ginn, and then again by Jarrett in his two biggest games. Not exactly a great resume. Id seriously look to put Houston (the just SHUT DOWN Jarrett) ahead of him.

Willis I have reservations about. For a guy supposedly SO good, why dont you seem to hear more about him? Is he just an under the radar guy, is the talent in this draft just THAT deep, or am I just looking in the wrong spots? Before workouts I was seeing his name in the late first, not top 10.

And as for David Carr, well, I wouldnt place to much on him. Just dont think he has it. Hes better than Joey, but thats not saying much. Granted his team wasnt a bunch of all-pros, and he was accurate, but he did have a few playmakers, and he was in a system built for accuracy. WHen I watched him (as I did most weeks living in Houston forced to watch the local game ugh ...) he just never impressed. Not a big leader, not a rise to the occassion guy, just cant seem to put together momentum. At best with a good supporting cast he will be an average starter, but thats all. Still think the Raiders should take CJ though.

Whatever, good stuff Boom, thanks for popping into the draft forum to update us Non-VIPers once in awhile, much appreciated :)

PhinstiGator
03-31-2007, 03:54 PM
Thanks for the work Boom!

Those are all going to be good players in the NFL...and we get one of them.

Austin Tatious
03-31-2007, 04:20 PM
If some combination of Russell, Thomas, Peterson and Johnson go in the top 3, Miami has the ammunition to trade up from 9 with either Tampa, Arizona, or Washington to get Quinn. It would seem plausible.

Tampa will not need either Peterson or Quinn, So they could trade down and still get Okoye, Landry, or Willis at 9 and be very happy.

I think Miami needs to move to 4 to get Quinn, because if they don't Minnesota or Carolina might very well do so.

However, it is entirely possible that Russell will go one, Peterson or Thomas 2, and Quinn 3. If that is the case, it will be much tougher for Miami to get Quinn. Then Tampa will take CJ as a major steal.

Frayser
03-31-2007, 05:09 PM
Good stuff as always, man. I'm glad to see you putting Revis ahead of Hall too. I am wondering when the guys like Kiper are going to make the switch. Hypothetically speaking, if Ginn Jr. were gone, would you like Revis as the pick? Is he too much of a reach at #9? Do you think CB is enough of a need area to warrant the pick?

Oh, and congrats to your boys today. They gave my Gunners a pounding. I think this year is making up for our undefeated season. I can't remember ever being more disappointed with the team. And what makes it all worse is that we're 2-0 against Man U. How does that happen?

vinivedivichi
03-31-2007, 05:40 PM
Very, very nice work...I have to applaud you for not simply piggybacking on any one of the 500 "top prospects" lists that are basically the same list.

I guess I really like your list because I think, although for some reason the rest of the draft gurus disagree, your top 4 are dead - on...it's almost common sense that the top 4 should look like that IMO.

colmax
03-31-2007, 05:50 PM
Willis I have reservations about. For a guy supposedly SO good, why dont you seem to hear more about him? Is he just an under the radar guy, is the talent in this draft just THAT deep, or am I just looking in the wrong spots? Before workouts I was seeing his name in the late first, not top 10.




(I'll take this one from ya, Boom-Brotha')

Willis is finally being mentioned everywhere, as he should. If you listen to NFL Sirius, Willis' name comes up quite often when LBs are mentioned for prospective teams in need of them. Google his name and you will run into a number of fan boards talking about him. I am assuming you do not follow SEC football because you no doubtedly would've heard about him.

Willis played for a small-time program in the SEC. Ole Miss isn't exactly considered "top-notch" nationally, much less in the SEC. I know, I am a student.

What separates Willis from the others is not only that he basically did everything and more asked from him on a sub-par team, but he played against top-tier talent. IMO, the SEC is the toughest conference nationally, no matter how many ways you put it. And Willis wreaked havoc!

He was named SEC Defensive Player of the Year (Meaning better than Landry). He won the Butkus (Meaning best LB in the nation). Led ALL in tackles at the Senior Bowl with 11.5. The next closest on either team had 5. He led the SEC (top-tier talent) with 137 tackles. Guess how many the next closest had? 107. Ranked 3rd in the NCAA in solo tackles with 7.25/game. That's production coming out of the wazoo!

Look, I am biased because we are at the same school. Disregarding that, Willis is a damned animal on the football field! Many have fallen in love with other LBs because of their school of choice. Posluszny's name always comes up in the same sentence as Willis' because he went to "LB U". Well, Poz couldn't sniff the stench on Willis' jock strap if he begged. Willis is in a class of his own. I am not the only person who thinks this.

All in all, Willis is a great character and having dealt with many adversities in his life, (including most recently his brother's drowning last summer prior to the season) he remains steadfast and continues to work hard on and off of the field. He does so much in the community, and has made the Chancellor's Honor Roll after struggling in high school to keep up academically. He busted his balls to get to where he is today, and it took a DAMNED 4.37 and 4.38 forty to finally open people's eyes as to how talented this man is!

I hate the fact that there are people on here riding his jock when earlier in the year I tried to enlighten everyone on this man's abilities. OH, NOW YOU LIKE WILLIS! What happened to Pussloser???


Here are some of his highlights if you have not seen him in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bM4sEmaFLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4wb4xNU5pA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IqadSMQm5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV4BX9upvVY

cs2p
03-31-2007, 06:21 PM
Nice read, but.. Why Branch so low?

Frayser
03-31-2007, 06:33 PM
(I'll take this one from ya, Boom-Brotha')

Willis is finally being mentioned everywhere, as he should. If you listen to NFL Sirius, Willis' name comes up quite often when LBs are mentioned for prospective teams in need of them. Google his name and you will run into a number of fan boards talking about him. I am assuming you do not follow SEC football because you no doubtedly would've heard about him.

Willis played for a small-time program in the SEC. Ole Miss isn't exactly considered "top-notch" nationally, much less in the SEC. I know, I am a student.

What separates Willis from the others is not only that he basically did everything and more asked from him on a sub-par team, but he played against top-tier talent. IMO, the SEC is the toughest conference nationally, no matter how many ways you put it. And Willis wreaked havoc!

He was named SEC Defensive Player of the Year (Meaning better than Landry). He won the Butkus (Meaning best LB in the nation). Led ALL in tackles at the Senior Bowl with 11.5. The next closest on either team had 5. He led the SEC (top-tier talent) with 137 tackles. Guess how many the next closest had? 107. Ranked 3rd in the NCAA in solo tackles with 7.25/game. That's production coming out of the wazoo!

Look, I am biased because we are at the same school. Disregarding that, Willis is a damned animal on the football field! Many have fallen in love with other LBs because of their school of choice. Posluszny's name always comes up in the same sentence as Willis' because he went to "LB U". Well, Poz couldn't sniff the stench on Willis' jock strap if he begged. Willis is in a class of his own. I am not the only person who thinks this.

All in all, Willis is a great character and having dealt with many adversities in his life, (including most recently his brother's drowning last summer prior to the season) he remains steadfast and continues to work hard on and off of the field. He does so much in the community, and has made the Chancellor's Honor Roll after struggling in high school to keep up academically. He busted his balls to get to where he is today, and it took a DAMNED 4.37 and 4.38 forty to finally open people's eyes as to how talented this man is!

I hate the fact that there are people on here riding his jock when earlier in the year I tried to enlighten everyone on this man's abilities. OH, NOW YOU LIKE WILLIS! What happened to Pussloser???


Here are some of his highlights if you have not seen him in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bM4sEmaFLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4wb4xNU5pA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IqadSMQm5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV4BX9upvVY

It's not bias when you simply had a better view than most. You are completely right. Path to the Draft on NFL Network the other night had a special in which someone (can't remember who) was trying to say Beason and Willis were neck and neck. That is a complete joke.

colmax
03-31-2007, 06:42 PM
It's not bias when you simply had a better view than most. You are completely right. Path to the Draft on NFL Network the other night had a special in which someone (can't remember who) was trying to say Beason and Willis were neck and neck. That is a complete joke.

Was probably May-caca.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:17 PM
OK, now Laron Landry not being smart. Right after mentioning his great instincts. What? forget about that notion.

Sorry, but having good instincts and not being smart are two totally different things. You can be intsinctive without being intelligent.

You did know that didn't you?

So before you say "forget about that notion", let me direct quote you from a scout at the Combine on Landry.

"There's some questions about him. I don't know how smart he is."

So apologies to your dismissive nature, but there you go.



Jemarcus Russell I just saw on NFL Network where Russel is moving around in the pocket and lays the ball right on target over the top of defenders on borken plays. This is the sign of greatness right there. Mayock compared him to John Elway except with the size and strength and the "flick of the wrist" long ball. To have Jemarcus Russell at 15 is just bad. Sorry Boom. Jemarcus Russell showed Brady Quinn who was the better QB in head to head and I dont want to hear about better defense yadda yadda yadda........you have to go against what you go against and Russell showed better all around reads and touch and moxy. I like Quinn alot though because if he has the talent around him, he will do the leadership job just fine. I would have Quinn around 5 or 6 and Russell at 2 behind Calvin Johnson.

OK, first off, his name is JaMarcus.

So you see a handful of plus point clips on the NFL Network and that makes it alright? I tell you what, watch the 9 LSU games I've seen him play in live and the rest of the footage I've seen on him and then get back to me.

Your comment about Russell 'showed Quinn in head to head' is the stupidest argument ever because your parameters for how Russell 'showed' Quinn are that we're not allowed to talk about how much better a team LSU were, how Notre Dame had no right to be in that game in the first place and that Russell has 3 1st round wideouts to throw to.



Peterson is a good RB and great kid. I just wouldnt put him in the Hall of Fame right now.

More after I read it over again.
Your opinion counts for what anyway?

I mean seriously. You traipse round the forums floating half truths based omn players that you've not actually watched. Your opinions are drawn off what you read.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:29 PM
2) Ted Ginn. Taking a player this high who has so little proven skill at his primary position (WR) is scary to me. He is a very explosive player who has shown great return capabilities but as a WR he has many question marks. Can he catch in traffic? Will he go over the middle (not underneath routes)? Can he block downfield? With his frailty, will he hold up? Can he beat physical NFL CB’s off the line? As far as his frailty goes, many people try to compare him to Marvin Harrison. MH was a much more polished WR than Ginn and MH’s only question mark was his frailty, not his skill set. Ginn could turn out to be Santana Moss but he could also turn out to be Randal Hill or even a WR version of John Avery.

OK Mr Tiger......lap top has chilled out.

I dispute that Ginn has 'so little proven skill'. He has 135 catches, almost 2000 yards recieving, so I'd say that's more than 'little proven skills'. Can he catch in traffic? Well, lets make no bones about it, he's not going to be Hines Ward. But this is a kid who's taken back 92 kicks and punts in 3 seasons, the most dangerous job in football. He very rarely fair catches it and he takes plenty of punishment, so I don't wory too much about that. As for going across the middle, well, a lot of his plays come on digs and crossing routes. What he's very good at is finding that dead area between the LB's and the safeties and making the grab. He's not a great blocker, more of an inteference guy, but he understands the form, probably from his corner play and he understands angles. Will he hold up? Well, the BCS Title game injury, the freak injury where Roy Hall dragged him down, catching his ankle underneath him and pulling him back, is the first injury he's had at college or high school.

In terms of beating physical press, well, as a flanker, he's going to be a yard or tow back off the LOS anyway and his movement is ridiculous. But watch the Texas game, where he shifts to the weakside against Aaron Ross, the strongside corner and a likely 1st round pick, who tracks him to the weak side and is in tight man press. At the snap, Ross, an aggressive kid with excellent hands never lays a glove on Ginn. He gives him 3 moves and whoosh. It's over. Touchdown. So I think he can play the press. Plus you move him around. You get him popping up all over the place. If I was Cam, I'd have him get 12/15 touches on offense a game.
[/QUOTE]

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:36 PM
3) LaRon Landry. I’m surprised to see him below Reggie Nelson or even out o fthe top 10. Your comments about his ‘smarts’ are the first I’ve heard of this. Remember, as a true freshman Landry mastered the same complex system Saban runs that Troy Polomalu, Lawyer Milloy, Rodney Harrison and our own Jason Allen initially struggled with as pros. Primary run responsibilites, blitzing, deep coverage calls...That has to display some football aptitude. He was starting and helping with secondary calls as a true freshman on a National Championship team. The guy is 6’1” 215 lbs., runs a 4.35 forty, has double digit int’s fro his career, benches over 400 lbs and is one of the surest tackling safeties to come out in years. What’s not to like? I know you have him ranked high, just lower than most others.



Mr Tiger.....it is I once more. If you are Irish, I have family in Kilkenny.

Anyway, Mr Landry beckons.

As I've said subsequently and as I said in the original post, the quote is a direct one from a colleague who was told that verbatim in Indianapolis by a scout.

I think Landry plays a little out of control and the coverage issues thing remains a concern for me. But he has a LOT going for him and it's not like I'm down on him, just that I like Nelson more.

cnc66
03-31-2007, 07:40 PM
OK Mr Tiger......lap top has chilled out.

I dispute that Ginn has 'so little proven skill'. He has 135 catches, almost 2000 yards recieving, so I'd say that's more than 'little proven skills'. Can he catch in traffic? Well, lets make no bones about it, he's not going to be Hines Ward. But this is a kid who's taken back 92 kicks and punts in 3 seasons, the most dangerous job in football. He very rarely fair catches it and he takes plenty of punishment, so I don't wory too much about that. As for going across the middle, well, a lot of his plays come on digs and crossing routes. What he's very good at is finding that dead area between the LB's and the safeties and making the grab. He's not a great blocker, more of an inteference guy, but he understands the form, probably from his corner play and he understands angles. Will he hold up? Well, the BCS Title game injury, the freak injury where Roy Hall dragged him down, catching his ankle underneath him and pulling him back, is the first injury he's had at college or high school.

In terms of beating physical press, well, as a flanker, he's going to be a yard or tow back off the LOS anyway and his movement is ridiculous. But watch the Texas game, where he shifts to the weakside against Aaron Ross, the strongside corner and a likely 1st round pick, who tracks him to the weak side and is in tight man press. At the snap, Ross, an aggressive kid with excellent hands never lays a glove on Ginn. He gives him 3 moves and whoosh. It's over. Touchdown. So I think he can play the press. Plus you move him around. You get him popping up all over the place. If I was Cam, I'd have him get 12/15 touches on offense a game.


by golly, I just might, I have it within arms reach

that stuff just got my heart pounding thinking about it.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:42 PM
4) Joe Thomas. In some of his games against quality opponents, I noticed he would get driven back into the QB. Do you have any more comments or conerns about him? Just curious.


Not really. I had issues with his hands, but he made a lot of improvement last year and I think the hips issue which I mentioned in post 1 is a reason why at times he gets moved back, but he's always seemed in control of that situation. I think using his hands better will alleviate much of that. I mean he has such a strong base and his feet and knee bend is excellent. Just some technique refinery.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:43 PM
Very good read and I agree with your assesments of Willis and Revis. Willis ability to play inside or outside can only help the team who drafts him. If I'm not mistaken, he showed at the Senior Bowl that he is better in coverage than many thought he was.

Revis' ability to drop off his coverage to make the play underneath reminds me of what Sam Madison used to do.


Thanks. Yes, Revis has that ability that Madison possessed, which comes from instinct but also from hours watching film. But unlike Sam, Darrelle can actually tackle!

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:45 PM
so 4.37 at 85% what about 100% maybe sub 4.3?

I would think so. Whether he's 100%, who knows.

PhinsRDbest
03-31-2007, 07:46 PM
Not really. I had issues with his hands, but he made a lot of improvement last year and I think the hips issue which I mentioned in post 1 is a reason why at times he gets moved back, but he's always seemed in control of that situation. I think using his hands better will alleviate much of that. I mean he has such a strong base and his feet and knee bend is excellent. Just some technique refinery.
I know its early but how would you rate Jake Long. Do you think hes a better prospect then Thomas? Do you think he would have ranked high in this years draft?

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:47 PM
Good stuff Boomer.



This may just be me but I think Joe Staley's better than Levi Brown at least in terms of upside.



Agreed 100%.



I suppose Ginn would qualify at this spot if he's healthy. Maybe it's the sour taste of Yatil Green in my mouth but until he shows he's fully healthy before the draft, I have my reservations.


Regan, two points.

1) Staley's upside is bigger than Browns. But his downside is bigger too.

2) Don't forget, Yatil Green tore two ACL's. Ginn has been injury free for 7 years, apart from an act of stupidity by a teammate.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:50 PM
Great stuff Boom as usual. Cant say I disagree about much really. Love Quinn and Ginn as well. Quinn is just a pure QB and everything you could want. Any chance the Phins could get him, and they need to take it-within reason, lets not pull a "trade our draft for Ricky" type thing.
Ginn is very underrated by many people on this board. It seems hes often just characterized as a "fast" WR. Lets get this straight. Hes not fast, hes faster than anyone else. And not just that, he PLAYS that fast! It seems everyone else is playing in slo-mo when hes around. Not to mention his ST ability. Sure hes a little raw, but he can still come in and be an effective day 1 starter and STILL have a massive ceiling to reach-scary! Hes quite simply a game changing player.
I have a few reservations about the ankle, but then again, its just an ankle sprain. Some of those things can take a long time to heal, but unlike a fracture its not a recurring thing. If the docs check him out Im good.

Im not sure what to think about Leon Hall. He got absolutely torched by Ginn, and then again by Jarrett in his two biggest games. Not exactly a great resume. Id seriously look to put Houston (the just SHUT DOWN Jarrett) ahead of him.

Willis I have reservations about. For a guy supposedly SO good, why dont you seem to hear more about him? Is he just an under the radar guy, is the talent in this draft just THAT deep, or am I just looking in the wrong spots? Before workouts I was seeing his name in the late first, not top 10.

And as for David Carr, well, I wouldnt place to much on him. Just dont think he has it. Hes better than Joey, but thats not saying much. Granted his team wasnt a bunch of all-pros, and he was accurate, but he did have a few playmakers, and he was in a system built for accuracy. WHen I watched him (as I did most weeks living in Houston forced to watch the local game ugh ...) he just never impressed. Not a big leader, not a rise to the occassion guy, just cant seem to put together momentum. At best with a good supporting cast he will be an average starter, but thats all. Still think the Raiders should take CJ though.

Whatever, good stuff Boom, thanks for popping into the draft forum to update us Non-VIPers once in awhile, much appreciated :)

Thanks.

Yeah, there's a chance Miami gets Quinn, but it depends on a lot of chips falling our way. That or just how much bounty Cam is willing to give up to go get him. He could easily be off the board in the 1st 15 minutes. But if he gets to Arizona/Washinton, then it's game on.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the work Boom!

Those are all going to be good players in the NFL...and we get one of them.

;)

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:54 PM
Good stuff as always, man. I'm glad to see you putting Revis ahead of Hall too. I am wondering when the guys like Kiper are going to make the switch. Hypothetically speaking, if Ginn Jr. were gone, would you like Revis as the pick? Is he too much of a reach at #9? Do you think CB is enough of a need area to warrant the pick?

Oh, and congrats to your boys today. They gave my Gunners a pounding. I think this year is making up for our undefeated season. I can't remember ever being more disappointed with the team. And what makes it all worse is that we're 2-0 against Man U. How does that happen?


Thanks. I think Hall is safe. Probably not going to be a Champ Bailey or a Chris McCalister or an Antoine Winfield or a Lito Shepperd. But he'll give you a decade of solidity.

Yes I'd like Revis as the pick. He has great CB ability and can return kicks.

It was a hammering wasn't it? Builds us up nicely for PSV this week and next.

TotoreMexico
03-31-2007, 07:54 PM
C'mon. I definitely can't agree with the Carr being a "win" situation?

Carr is Joey Harrington with a worst decision making ability. People here have nailed Culpepper to a cross about his "not making quick reads"...Carr is worst.

You can't blame Carr's sacks on his OL and Culpepper's on his slow reads. Carr obviously is a sack artist "and" interception artist because of his slow decision making.

I don't see OAK signing Carr. And I totally disagree with your "emotionally" based dislike for Russell.

Russell is the consensus top pick overall. Stop hatin Boom.

I guess he's a hater too...:rolleyes2

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10097800

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:54 PM
Very, very nice work...I have to applaud you for not simply piggybacking on any one of the 500 "top prospects" lists that are basically the same list.

I guess I really like your list because I think, although for some reason the rest of the draft gurus disagree, your top 4 are dead - on...it's almost common sense that the top 4 should look like that IMO.

;)

CpuFan
03-31-2007, 07:59 PM
Great Job Sir Much appreciated!!!

Boomer
03-31-2007, 07:59 PM
Nice read, but.. Why Branch so low?

Because when I watch him, he can disappear for far too long and when he plays I've seen some very worrying traits to his game. Watch for example, the OSU game, manned up against Doug Datish. Time and again, Datish would take Branch out of the hole, allowing Pittman to burst through the hole vacated by him. He would play too high, Datish would engage and then turn him far too easily, allowing Pittman in the backside. Time and again, Datish would get Branch moving sideways down the LOS and away from the ball carrier. And it wasn't just that game either. Ryan Kalil did just the same thing.

His work ethic is very questionable and when he wears down, as he does, he gets awfully sloppy, he leans at the waist, he lunges and he just gets too inconsistent. When he's on, he's on, but he's not always on. Hence the fall in my book.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 08:04 PM
I know its early but how would you rate Jake Long. Do you think hes a better prospect then Thomas? Do you think he would have ranked high in this years draft?

I don't think he's better than Thomas. I'm sort of underwhelmed on him. I prefer Sam Baker on the left, I think the kid at Maryland can be special, I like the Richardson kid from Clemson and Clady at Boise State can be special and on the right side, Gosder Cherilus is a guy I've liked for ages. He's a good player, but for me, his senior year is critical.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 08:07 PM
Great Job Sir Much appreciated!!!


My pleasure, dude.

Geforce
03-31-2007, 08:12 PM
I don't think he's better than Thomas. I'm sort of underwhelmed on him. I prefer Sam Baker on the left, I think the kid at Maryland can be special, I like the Richardson kid from Clemson and Clady at Boise State can be special and on the right side, Gosder Cherilus is a guy I've liked for ages. He's a good player, but for me, his senior year is critical.

Jared Gaither?

Boomer
03-31-2007, 08:14 PM
Yep.

fishypete
03-31-2007, 08:18 PM
I'm not sold on Quinn being the 3rd best player Boomer...and here's why;

Prior to Weiss....Quinn was at best an average QB...first season he had a 47% comp average....his second season he had a 54% comp average....then Weiss comes into the picture...and his play gets better....but what happens now that Weiss isn't there....looking over him....does he stay to the good side or does he cross over to the dark side again?

This draft reminds me of one a couple years ago....remember Smith and Rodgers....which one is the lesser evil? Once Notre Dame may have been a great football team...but they haven't been great for many years now. I don't want you to get me wrong on Quinn...he has plenty of talent....but it wasn't him getting that talent out...it was Weiss. I wouldn't be unhappy if the Dolphins draft him with the 9th pick...but I wouldn't reach for him any higher.

cnc66
03-31-2007, 08:23 PM
Texas-OSU game ....dang... 2nd play Ginn was wide out left and caught a 50 yd slant.... 5 yd catch, 45 yards after catch...

Boomer
03-31-2007, 08:26 PM
I'm not sold on Quinn being the 3rd best player Boomer...and here's why;

Prior to Weiss....Quinn was at best an average QB...first season he had a 47% comp average....his second season he had a 54% comp average....then Weiss comes into the picture...and his play gets better....but what happens now that Weiss isn't there....looking over him....does he stay to the good side or does he cross over to the dark side again?

This draft reminds me of one a couple years ago....remember Smith and Rodgers....which one is the lesser evil? Once Notre Dame may have been a great football team...but they haven't been great for many years now. I don't want you to get me wrong on Quinn...he has plenty of talent....but it wasn't him getting that talent out...it was Weiss. I wouldn't be unhappy if the Dolphins draft him with the 9th pick...but I wouldn't reach for him any higher.


But Notre Dame were a very bad football team with a very good schedule when Quinn was thrown into the fire as a freshman. I think it's pretty harsh to use that against him. And by the same argument, you could say that Tom Brady was lucky to fall on his feet and that he's simply a product of the Weis system. Weis runs a hybrid Erhardt - Perkins system. Cameron runs a sort of cross between that and the Zampese system. I don't see the issue. It's an awful lot of 'what if's, buts and maybe's'.

Don't we all usually need someone to help us maximise our abilities? I don't see the issue.

PhinsRDbest
03-31-2007, 08:27 PM
I'm not sold on Quinn being the 3rd best player Boomer...and here's why;

Prior to Weiss....Quinn was at best an average QB...first season he had a 47% comp average....his second season he had a 54% comp average....then Weiss comes into the picture...and his play gets better....but what happens now that Weiss isn't there....looking over him....does he stay to the good side or does he cross over to the dark side again?

This draft reminds me of one a couple years ago....remember Smith and Rodgers....which one is the lesser evil? Once Notre Dame may have been a great football team...but they haven't been great for many years now. I don't want you to get me wrong on Quinn...he has plenty of talent....but it wasn't him getting that talent out...it was Weiss. I wouldn't be unhappy if the Dolphins draft him with the 9th pick...but I wouldn't reach for him any higher.
But the two season before Weiss was his Freshman and Sophmore year do you expect him to be All-american.

Boomer
03-31-2007, 08:28 PM
Texas-OSU game ....dang... 2nd play Ginn was wide out left and caught a 50 yd slant.... 5 yd catch, 45 yards after catch...
LOL. Wait till you get to the Ross play. It's about a 35 yard TD, left corner. And Ross can really play. And he's quick. But Ginn gives him 3 shakes at the LOS and it's Goodnight Josephine.

And at 1.27am in London, it's goodnight from me too!

Regan21286
03-31-2007, 09:52 PM
Regan, two points.

1) Staley's upside is bigger than Browns. But his downside is bigger too.

2) Don't forget, Yatil Green tore two ACL's. Ginn has been injury free for 7 years, apart from an act of stupidity by a teammate.

I wouldn't consider his downside as that much bigger than Brown's. Levi Brown, if he can't keep up a mean streak can just as easily become a big bust.

True Ginn's hasn't been injured as much. But I still feel he has to shake off the injury label after missing Combine and Pro Days.

Boomer
04-01-2007, 01:24 PM
I wouldn't consider his downside as that much bigger than Brown's. Levi Brown, if he can't keep up a mean streak can just as easily become a big bust.

True Ginn's hasn't been injured as much. But I still feel he has to shake off the injury label after missing Combine and Pro Days.

I struggle to see how the downside of a 4 year starter at LT for a major school is worse than a 2 year starter at LT from a small school.

Ginn hasn't been injured at all. He's missed the combine and the pro days solely because he is getting ready for the biggest job interview of his life. Why not go into it as close to 100% as possible? There's no time limit on when he should work out. He doesn't have ANY injury label.

Jaj
04-01-2007, 01:49 PM
Sure Staley has a big downside but paying a first round pick for Levi Brown is dangerous. Trading up with your 2nd+3rd rounder for a 1st+5th is ideal.

Boomer you may think he's weak but for many many years Walter Jones was slammed for his run blocking. With effort he improved.

Levi Brown might be the evolution of the right tackle, built so that he can still push in the ground game but can also battle the new class of fast LEs like Robert Mathis.

Boomer
04-01-2007, 02:10 PM
Sure Staley has a big downside but paying a first round pick for Levi Brown is dangerous. Trading up with your 2nd+3rd rounder for a 1st+5th is ideal.

Boomer you may think he's weak but for many many years Walter Jones was slammed for his run blocking. With effort he improved.

Levi Brown might be the evolution of the right tackle, built so that he can still push in the ground game but can also battle the new class of fast LEs like Robert Mathis.

Jaj, please don't begin to compare Walter Jones with Staley.

And I don't see how drafting Brown would be considered 'dangerous'.

jim1
04-01-2007, 02:37 PM
icle

Now THAT deserves a FLMAO, what a ballsy response. I'm still pulling for Sidney Rice at #40, especially with that 40 time that you posted, I hadn't heard. But we'll see which QB's and OL's are available, that could be nice, too. Great post as always.

jim1
04-01-2007, 02:45 PM
Now we're talking. I would love to see Willis at 9 if Landry is gone. Then Best OT available, then Satale with second pick of the third...Of course Drew Stanton in second if still available.

I don't see any "wow" factor in Stanton's arm. Not that much zip on the ball and a kind of slow delivery. Not that the arm necessarily makes the QB, but from what little I know I'd be inclined to go with Trent Edwards or Kevin Kolb. Boomer mentioned another QB elsewhere (John Beck?) from BYU, but I don't know anything about him. Stanton is a heck of an athlete and has nice size, but I don't think I'd touch him until round #3.

Regan21286
04-01-2007, 02:47 PM
I struggle to see how the downside of a 4 year starter at LT for a major school is worse than a 2 year starter at LT from a small school.

Ginn hasn't been injured at all. He's missed the combine and the pro days solely because he is getting ready for the biggest job interview of his life. Why not go into it as close to 100% as possible? There's no time limit on when he should work out. He doesn't have ANY injury label.

There's a downside considering he does have an inconsistency streak and would need to check his weight. And there's a chance he may have to move to RT which wouldn't be a good thing since we have an established 1st round RT in Carey. Last thing we'd need is another Stockar McDougle.

I've heard otherwise about that injury. If he wasn't injured, why do a lot of people call it an injury? Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if we landed Ginn but until I see an official non-rumored 40 time and hear that he made all the cuts, slants, and runs as well as anyone can make, I still have my reservations.

jim1
04-01-2007, 03:21 PM
so 4.37 at 85% what about 100% maybe sub 4.3?
Best times

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The fastest time officially recorded by the NFL (http://www.answers.com/topic/national-football-league) was 4.29 seconds by Deion Sanders (http://www.answers.com/topic/deion-sanders) in 1989 (http://www.answers.com/topic/1989) [1] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-0), although the NFL did not begin electronic timing until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds by cornerback Fabian Washington (http://www.answers.com/topic/fabian-washington) in 2005. [2] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-1) Most other times close to 4.0 are untrustworthy due to the use of hand timing, but it is often claimed that players including Sanders (4.17)[3] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-2), Ted Ginn Jr. (http://www.answers.com/topic/ted-ginn-jr) (4.04)[4] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-3), DeAngelo Hall (http://www.answers.com/topic/hall-deangelo) (4.15)[5] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-4)[6] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-5), Michael Vick (http://www.answers.com/topic/michael-vick) (4.65)[7] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-6), Bo Jackson (http://www.answers.com/topic/bo-jackson) (4.12)[8] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-7), Michael Bennett (http://www.answers.com/topic/michael-bennett) (4.13)[9] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-8), Randy Moss (http://www.answers.com/topic/randy-moss) (4.25)[10] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-9), Darrell Green (http://www.answers.com/topic/darrell-green) (4.15[11] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-10), 4.2[12] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-11)), Laveranues Coles (http://www.answers.com/topic/laveranues-coles) (4.2)[13] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-12), and Alexander Wright (http://www.answers.com/topic/alexander-wright-football-player) (4.09)[14] (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_note-13) have approached that mark.

4. ^ (http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash#wp-_ref-3) Weiss, Dick. "Ginn's gunning for title." (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/486122p-409271c.html) New York Daily News, January 6, 2007.

http://www.answers.com/topic/40-yard-dash

Boomer
04-01-2007, 04:08 PM
There's a downside considering he does have an inconsistency streak and would need to check his weight. And there's a chance he may have to move to RT which wouldn't be a good thing since we have an established 1st round RT in Carey. Last thing we'd need is another Stockar McDougle.

I've heard otherwise about that injury. If he wasn't injured, why do a lot of people call it an injury? Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if we landed Ginn but until I see an official non-rumored 40 time and hear that he made all the cuts, slants, and runs as well as anyone can make, I still have my reservations.

Brown coasts occasionally against lesser teams, but he certainly has no weight issues. As for Carey, he could play LT or LG with no issues at all, even if Brown DID have to shift to RT.

What do you mean 'you heard otherwise about the injury?'. Ginn had a fractured toe, which occured when he had a door shut on him the week of the Minnesota game. He didn't miss a game. When Hall rolled up on him, it affected that fracture again, but essentially, it's a high ankle sprain and as I said beforem ahead of the biggest job interview of your life, why would you go in at 85% if you have the chance to wait and go in at 100%. I really don't understand these conspiracy theories about Ginn's injury.

Bofin
04-01-2007, 04:21 PM
thanks for the write up, really good read. when will ginn run??

Boomer
04-01-2007, 04:23 PM
11th or 12th of April and probably again the weekend prior to the draft.

Bofin
04-01-2007, 04:28 PM
thanks

Lappy
04-01-2007, 04:36 PM
That was a great read!

I dissagree with having Patrick Willis in the top 5......

*sure he was a starter as a true freshmen
*I believe he won the butkus award last year (most outstanding LB award)
*he could probably play inside or outside in the NFL
*he had over a 130 tackles or something crazy...(that's got to be in the top 5 or so in the nation for tackles)

BUT

The boy went to Mississippi!!!!!

That is a down fall that puts him drafted much later as far as I'm concerned! Shoot I wouldn't draft a Mississippi man EVER!

:P

cnc66
04-01-2007, 04:40 PM
That was a great read!

I dissagree with having Patrick Willis in the top 5......

*sure he was a starter as a true freshmen
*I believe he won the butkus award last year (most outstanding LB award)
*he could probably play inside or outside in the NFL
*he had over a 130 tackles or something crazy...(that's got to be in the top 5 or so in the nation for tackles)

BUT

The boy went to Mississippi!!!!!

That is a down fall that puts him drafted much later as far as I'm concerned! Shoot I wouldn't draft a Mississippi man EVER!

:P

someone made the point last night Lappy that there is nothing wrong with the talent he was playing against, and he dominated...

Frayser
04-01-2007, 04:46 PM
someone made the point last night Lappy that there is nothing wrong with the talent he was playing against, and he dominated...

Exactly. When all is said and done, I think the SEC is the premier conference in the country. I always trust grunt players (OL, DL, LBs) coming out of the SEC. The level of competition is just far superior. There are no weak teams in the SEC (even my Vanderbilt Commodores play tough). Every team fields meat on the line. That is why I have no doubt that Arron Sears would be a solid pick.

Lappy
04-01-2007, 04:56 PM
someone made the point last night Lappy that there is nothing wrong with the talent he was playing against, and he dominated...


I agree the talent is fine and man he did dominate! and I guess my sarcasm doesn't read that well.......

BUT he went to Mississippi! :goof:

MISSISSIPPI!

maybe my summers as a gouber in the Peanut festival while visiting family in West Virginia has something to do with my hatred for Mississippi men! :tongue:


I know... I hate myself for letting them make me participate as a gouber. We all have our acts of Nerd.


but seriously, he's going to be unbelievable in the NFL like I said I think he could play inside or out. He's got the speed to play side line to sideline that is fo sho!

Boomer
04-01-2007, 05:04 PM
someone made the point last night Lappy that there is nothing wrong with the talent he was playing against, and he dominated...

Marty,

You watch the rest of that game?

fishypete
04-01-2007, 06:11 PM
But the two season before Weiss was his Freshman and Sophmore year do you expect him to be All-american.

Yes....if your going to pay a high price for a QB....i expect him to be alot better than one that only can get a 47 or 54% comp rating. Again...lets remember Weiss isn't going to be him....when he plays in the NFL.

NMUCats
04-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Pete, I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense whatsoever, but you keep repeating it over and over so I have to comment. Do you not think Quinn retained anything that Weis told him? Do you think Weis told him before every pass he ever made who to throw to? Or which audibles to make?


If your argument holds any water, than why is Tom Brady still playing well w/out Weis? Could it be because he remembers and uses what Weis taught him? Hmmm

fishypete
04-01-2007, 08:55 PM
Pete, I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense whatsoever, but you keep repeating it over and over so I have to comment. Do you not think Quinn retained anything that Weis told him? Do you think Weis told him before every pass he ever made who to throw to? Or which audibles to make?


If your argument holds any water, than why is Tom Brady still playing well w/out Weis? Could it be because he remembers and uses what Weis taught him? Hmmm

Or is it that Brady was an over-looked QB that was taken in the 6th round? I guess we'll find out sooner or later.

colmax
04-01-2007, 09:21 PM
That was a great read!

I dissagree with having Patrick Willis in the top 5......

*sure he was a starter as a true freshmen
*I believe he won the butkus award last year (most outstanding LB award)
*he could probably play inside or outside in the NFL
*he had over a 130 tackles or something crazy...(that's got to be in the top 5 or so in the nation for tackles)

BUT

The boy went to Mississippi!!!!!

That is a down fall that puts him drafted much later as far as I'm concerned! Shoot I wouldn't draft a Mississippi man EVER!

:P



Glad you were joking, because I was about to change your mind for ya! :D

Anyway, Mississippi was named the nation's best football state in '06:


The award salutes Mississippi as the nation’s top football state following a study conducted by The Wharton Spots Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania. The project encapsulated a variety of per capita criteria including, the percentages of collegiate and professional football fans, number of NFL players who hail from the state, percentage of high school football players in the state and percentage of high school players who have letters-of-intent to play for NCAA Division I-A colleges and universities.

http://www.usafootball.com/articles/19-press-box/95-featured-articles/401-mississippi-tabbed-as-best-football-state.php


Here are just a few Mississippians that play(ed) in the NFL. Let me know if you have heard of them:

- Walter Payton
- Jerry Rice
- Steve McNair
- Lance Alworth
- Brett Favre
- Archie Manning
- L.C. Greenwood
- Jackie Slater
- Hugh Green
- Eric Moulds
- Deuce McAllister


And just for you, Lappy, here are a few more somewhat famous Mississippians:

- Oprah Winfrey
- Morgan Freeman
- Medgar Evers
- James Earl Jones
- Sela Ward
- Bo Diddley
- Muddy Waters
- Eudora Welty
- LeAnn Rimes
- Faith Hill
- Jimmy Buffett
- B.B. King
- Some dude named Elvis
- Jim Henson
- William Faulkner
- Robin Roberts (Yeah, THAT Robin Roberts)
- Tennessee Williams
- Howlin' Wolf
- and last, but not least, the blues' most notorious: Robert Johnson

.......just to name a few. This state is one of the most influential states in the US when it comes to cultural icons. Hell, I didn't even name half of the blues artists from here. Have I changed your mind about PO' DUNK Mississippi, Lappy???

JT#1
04-01-2007, 11:38 PM
Yes....if your going to pay a high price for a QB....i expect him to be alot better than one that only can get a 47 or 54% comp rating. Again...lets remember Weiss isn't going to be him....when he plays in the NFL.

Please list me a QB who in this freshman and sophmore year posted up huge numbers

LouPhinFan
04-01-2007, 11:53 PM
But Notre Dame were a very bad football team with a very good schedule when Quinn was thrown into the fire as a freshman. I think it's pretty harsh to use that against him. And by the same argument, you could say that Tom Brady was lucky to fall on his feet and that he's simply a product of the Weis system. Weis runs a hybrid Erhardt - Perkins system. Cameron runs a sort of cross between that and the Zampese system.

Geez, Boomer, how much football do you know? Are those football systems or can I pick winning lotto numbers with 'em too? :D Unfortunately I'm stuck in basketball country. I can break down a flex/motion offense, show you how to run a 1-3-1 zone trap, etc. but I don't know jack about football offense.

As always, excellent thread Boomer!!:)

wazzy
04-02-2007, 12:04 AM
Glad you were joking, because I was about to change your mind for ya! :D

Anyway, Mississippi was named the nation's best football state in '06:



http://www.usafootball.com/articles/19-press-box/95-featured-articles/401-mississippi-tabbed-as-best-football-state.php


Here are just a few Mississippians that play(ed) in the NFL. Let me know if you have heard of them:

- Walter Payton
- Jerry Rice
- Steve McNair
- Lance Alworth
- Brett Favre
- Archie Manning
- L.C. Greenwood
- Jackie Slater
- Hugh Green
- Eric Moulds
- Deuce McAllister


And just for you, Lappy, here are a few more somewhat famous Mississippians:

- Oprah Winfrey
- Morgan Freeman
- Medgar Evers
- James Earl Jones
- Sela Ward
- Bo Diddley
- Muddy Waters
- Eudora Welty
- LeAnn Rimes
- Faith Hill
- Jimmy Buffett
- B.B. King
- Some dude named Elvis
- Jim Henson
- William Faulkner
- Robin Roberts (Yeah, THAT Robin Roberts)
- Tennessee Williams
- Howlin' Wolf
- and last, but not least, the blues' most notorious: Robert Johnson

.......just to name a few. This state is one of the most influential states in the US when it comes to cultural icons. Hell, I didn't even name half of the blues artists from here. Have I changed your mind about PO' DUNK Mississippi, Lappy???

Well i recognize Oprah but the rest:wink: on a side note I didn't know that there was that many HOF that came out of Mississippi

TexanPhinatic
04-02-2007, 12:44 AM
Or is it that Brady was an over-looked QB that was taken in the 6th round? I guess we'll find out sooner or later.

WTF are you on man? Your argument is just bunk. Whether he was overlooked or not, he is still a product of Weiss' system. And guess what, hes still doing pretty damn well!!
And even assuming for some bizzarre reason Brady (Quinn) forgets everything Weiss taught him, Cam is also, oh yeah, a damn good QB coach.

The key word here is "coach." A coach, well, coaches! He teaches. Not just implant a chip in someones head then remove it when the player moves on. Seriously, yours is the stupidest argument for not taking Quinn yet.

Whatever, your opinion. I assume youll be changing it when he starts lighting up the league.

Regan21286
04-02-2007, 12:48 AM
WTF are you on man? Your argument is just bunk. Whether he was overlooked or not, he is still a product of Weiss' system. And guess what, hes still doing pretty damn well!!
And even assuming for some bizzarre reason Brady (Quinn) forgets everything Weiss taught him, Cam is also, oh yeah, a damn good QB coach.

Not to mention the similarities between Cam's offense and Weis's. Other than New England, we're the perfect match for Quinn.

sabansuxithard
04-02-2007, 02:19 AM
I am in pretty strong agreement with most of your picks Boom. There are 3-4 I have "minor" disagreements about (they aren't even worth typing about, splitting the hairs of a balding man is big waste of time IMO), and only one I have a major disagreement about and he is the one player I think many may be overestimating, and many will think I am out of my mind for thinking it, but that player is Calvin Johnson. I know he is big, I know he has good hands, I know he has pretty good speed, and I even know what OUTSTANDING BODY CONTROL he has. But the biggest and most obvious flaw about this guy when watching LOTS of highlights of him play, is that in ALL the highlight reels, I did not see ONE, NOT EVEN ONE FREAKIN SINGLE PLAY, in which there was anything that could be considered "separation" between him and the guy covering him, and in the NFL, that can spell problems. Now don't get me wrong, I think this kid will do fine in the nfl, but it seems like everyone thinks he is gonna be the next Randy Moss/ Jerry Rice, where I more realistically, at least in terms of on the field production, see him being more like the next Keyshawn Johnson (minus the a****** attitude of course :D), which aint a bad consolation prize, I just don't foresee this guy becoming the greatest receiver that ever lived like so many others see him becoming. I hope he proves me wrong!!, Because unlike so many other receivers, this kid has a REALLY good head on his shoulders!! Also Boomer, I wanted to know your thoughts on Justin Blalock, because I think this is one kid that is really flying under the radar and could be a freakin BEAST in the nfl. Has all the athletic ability in the world, only big knock on him seems to be his technique, something a Mr. Hudson Houck might know a thing or 2 about correcting. I only make like one sleeper pick every 2-3 years, and this is the guy I am picking, my last 2 though not "huge reaches" Drew Brees and Shawn Andrews, still did way better than many were expecting from them at the time, they are both pro bowlers. And I am going on record right now, that I think Justin Blalock is gonna be WAY better than even the very talented Shawn Andrews. Guess we'll know soon enough. But once again, awesome job boomer, I like that you provide a lot of sound evidence for your picks, there are many mock draft wanna bees who could learn from your example. Take care and I look forward to reading more of your posts bro!:cooldude:

Boomer
04-02-2007, 05:17 AM
I am in pretty strong agreement with most of your picks Boom. There are 3-4 I have "minor" disagreements about (they aren't even worth typing about, splitting the hairs of a balding man is big waste of time IMO), and only one I have a major disagreement about and he is the one player I think many may be overestimating, and many will think I am out of my mind for thinking it, but that player is Calvin Johnson. I know he is big, I know he has good hands, I know he has pretty good speed, and I even know what OUTSTANDING BODY CONTROL he has. But the biggest and most obvious flaw about this guy when watching LOTS of highlights of him play, is that in ALL the highlight reels, I did not see ONE, NOT EVEN ONE FREAKIN SINGLE PLAY, in which there was anything that could be considered "separation" between him and the guy covering him, and in the NFL, that can spell problems.


With all the respect in the world dude, you can't have seen him play much. Pick a play, any play.

Hell, I typed his name into You Tube looking for single plays to help you out and picked three at random to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRTvQGldpdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baeAsiaOdyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0XAtxQX97g

That is seperation and it happens all the time.

Dolfan2788
04-02-2007, 05:38 AM
Boom I have a question.

If we don't trade up and get Quinn what do you think the possibilities are of drafting Carriker considering that we just resigned Vonnie for 4 years and replacing Roth as our DE would do exactly the same as drafting Willis and putting Crowder on the bench.

The reason I ask is because I like solid guys in the draft who seem as if they will produce a good amount at least. And I think that Carriker is one of those guys that can hold down a DE position for a good 8 years whilst performing at a high level.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 06:09 AM
Boom I have a question.

If we don't trade up and get Quinn what do you think the possibilities are of drafting Carriker considering that we just resigned Vonnie for 4 years and replacing Roth as our DE would do exactly the same as drafting Willis and putting Crowder on the bench.

The reason I ask is because I like solid guys in the draft who seem as if they will produce a good amount at least. And I think that Carriker is one of those guys that can hold down a DE position for a good 8 years whilst performing at a high level.

I think it's very strong. Firstly he's a great kid, a high character individual. Second, he's a hell of a player. And thirdly, whilst he wouldn't start, he'd be on the field a lot more than Willis would because that DL rotates so much. So he'd play the 5 technique behind Roth and the 3 behind Vonnie, but he'd be on the field an awful lot more than Willis.

Dolfan2788
04-02-2007, 06:11 AM
I think it's very strong. Firstly he's a great kid, a high character individual. Second, he's a hell of a player. And thirdly, whilst he wouldn't start, he'd be on the field a lot more than Willis would because that DL rotates so much. So he'd play the 5 technique behind Roth and the 3 behind Vonnie, but he'd be on the field an awful lot more than Willis.

Thanks a bunch.

I just think that he would be a very solid pick at 9 and solidify that position for so long and keep our pass rush very strong with a good run stuffing presence also.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 06:13 AM
Thanks a bunch.

I just think that he would be a very solid pick at 9 and solidify that position for so long and keep our pass rush very strong with a good run stuffing presence also.

No worries mate. And I concur with all you said there.

cnc66
04-02-2007, 06:34 AM
Marty,

You watch the rest of that game?


yes Simon, I did. The TD play to Ginn was just before the half. I prolly watched it 15 times. The db never had a chance... I'll have to take your word for it that he is actually very good db, because Mr. Ginn makes him look outclassed. By the second shake Ginn knew he had him... even if he HAD got his hands on him, unless he "held" he was beat. An aside, a guy with hands problems doesn't catch that ball. He caught it over his shoulder in stride and looked as natural as you can be.

Another thing not really addressed to much here, is the ability of Ginn to command attention. They used him regularly to clear out an area for another receiver, and #11 had a field day. Split him out and two guys are occupied on a sideline, allowing for serious opportunity elsewhere.
This guy really has become a favorite of mine... which is sayin' something for a 'Cane. Whoever picks him is going to be very happy, I am hoping in a larger way every day it is us. If we can make an end around work with CC, just imagine Ginn.... It seems that the "instant" you don't play him with two on him, he bites you, and not just long either. His slant is as scary as anybody I have seen.
He might SEEM to be a "luxury" pick, as we really DO have many holes to fill, but I just think that this kid brings a TON to the table. It seems ALL around him play UP when he is in. I would be very pleased if we somehow ended up with him on our roster.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 06:43 AM
yes Simon, I did. The TD play to Ginn was just before the half. I prolly watched it 15 times. The db never had a chance... I'll have to take your word for it that he is actually very good db, because Mr. Ginn makes him look outclassed. By the second shake Ginn knew he had him... even if he HAD got his hands on him, unless he "held" he was beat. An aside, a guy with hands problems doesn't catch that ball. He caught it over his shoulder in stride and looked as natural as you can be.

Take my word for it, Ross is good. He's a decent strong side corner, he is a read and react guy who likes to sidesaddle, a la Champ Bailey and can occasionally get caught peeking into the backfield, but he's strong, he's quick and he's a good tackler. But he was flat out beaten on that TD.

Ginn's ability to track the ball over his shoulder is one of his great assets. He makes a lot of over the shoulder catches. The whole "he has bad hands" thing is so overplayed by people who either haven't seen him at all or have seen cursory glimpes of him. It's the same as people saying he doesn't work the middle of the field, when it's patently obvious that he does.



Another thing not really addressed to much here, is the ability of Ginn to command attention. They used him regularly to clear out an area for another receiver, and #11 had a field day. Split him out and two guys are occupied on a sideline, allowing for serious opportunity elsewhere.
This guy really has become a favorite of mine... which is sayin' something for a 'Cane. Whoever picks him is going to be very happy, I am hoping in a larger way every day it is us. If we can make an end around work with CC, just imagine Ginn.... It seems that the "instant" you don't play him with two on him, he bites you, and not just long either. His slant is as scary as anybody I have seen. He might SEEM to be a "luxury" pick, as we really DO have many holes to fill, but I just think that this kid brings a TON to the table. It seems ALL around him play UP when he is in. I would be very pleased if we somehow ended up with him on our roster.

Yeah, I've said it for ages and I keep repeating it, but it's the Reggie Bush factor. You absolutely have to account for him on every play. Anthonhy Gonzalez did what he did because he was afford that chance because Ginn was always covered by the #1 corner, with deep help.

finfan54
04-02-2007, 07:16 AM
Take my word for it, Ross is good. He's a decent strong side corner, he is a read and react guy who likes to sidesaddle, a la Champ Bailey and can occasionally get caught peeking into the backfield, but he's strong, he's quick and he's a good tackler. But he was flat out beaten on that TD.

Ginn's ability to track the ball over his shoulder is one of his great assets. He makes a lot of over the shoulder catches. The whole "he has bad hands" thing is so overplayed by people who either haven't seen him at all or have seen cursory glimpes of him. It's the same as people saying he doesn't work the middle of the field, when it's patently obvious that he does.




Yeah, I've said it for ages and I keep repeating it, but it's the Reggie Bush factor. You absolutely have to account for him on every play. Anthonhy Gonzalez did what he did because he was afford that chance because Ginn was always covered by the #1 corner, with deep help.

Gonzalez is a good reciever and will do very well in the NFL. Why? Because he is smart, fast, can go over the middle, and do a whole bunch of other things while being very underrated. I'll give you that Ginn garnered the attention, but then Gonzalez made them pay. Academic All American and a guy who will be the consumate pro and do great things, make a boatload of money and donate heavily to charity. He already does. Big character guy. To write off gonzalez over Ginn is a big misnomer Boomer. He would not be rated where he is if it werent true. It works both ways once a guy like Gonzalez makes teams pay.

fullerboy1
04-02-2007, 11:14 AM
Gonzalez is a good reciever and will do very well in the NFL. Why? Because he is smart, fast, can go over the middle, and do a whole bunch of other things while being very underrated. I'll give you that Ginn garnered the attention, but then Gonzalez made them pay. Academic All American and a guy who will be the consumate pro and do great things, make a boatload of money and donate heavily to charity. He already does. Big character guy. To write off gonzalez over Ginn is a big misnomer Boomer. He would not be rated where he is if it werent true. It works both ways once a guy like Gonzalez makes teams pay.

Please dont feel attacked but next to C. Johnson, Ginn jr. will make us extremly deadly. My opinion is that Gonzo wouldnt be getting this much attention if it wasnt for Ginn jr.

sabansuxithard
04-02-2007, 11:23 AM
With all the respect in the world dude, you can't have seen him play much. Pick a play, any play.

Hell, I typed his name into You Tube looking for single plays to help you out and picked three at random to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRTvQGldpdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baeAsiaOdyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0XAtxQX97g

That is seperation and it happens all the time.

Sorry Boom, I stand corrected, You have opened my eyes to the realization that I need to cut back on my ESPN. ALSO, what are your thoughts on Justin Blalock?

Boomer
04-02-2007, 11:29 AM
Sorry Boom, I stand corrected, You have opened my eyes to the realization that I need to cut back on my ESPN. ALSO, what are your thoughts on Justin Blalock?

No worries dude.

And I like Blalock a lot and think he would be a superb 2nd round pick.

fullerboy1
04-02-2007, 11:36 AM
I think Blaylock would fit pretty well in what we are trying to do.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 11:41 AM
Gonzalez is a good reciever and will do very well in the NFL. Why? Because he is smart, fast, can go over the middle, and do a whole bunch of other things while being very underrated. I'll give you that Ginn garnered the attention, but then Gonzalez made them pay. Academic All American and a guy who will be the consumate pro and do great things, make a boatload of money and donate heavily to charity. He already does. Big character guy. To write off gonzalez over Ginn is a big misnomer Boomer. He would not be rated where he is if it werent true. It works both ways once a guy like Gonzalez makes teams pay.



So he disappeared when Ginn went down against Florida why? Was he off giving money to orphans?

fullerboy1
04-02-2007, 11:48 AM
Gonzalez is a good reciever and will do very well in the NFL. Why? Because he is smart, fast, can go over the middle, and do a whole bunch of other things while being very underrated. I'll give you that Ginn garnered the attention, but then Gonzalez made them pay. Academic All American and a guy who will be the consumate pro and do great things, make a boatload of money and donate heavily to charity. He already does. Big character guy. To write off gonzalez over Ginn is a big misnomer Boomer. He would not be rated where he is if it werent true. It works both ways once a guy like Gonzalez makes teams pay.

Check out a few of the games they played, there was not anything outstanding that gonzo did. Its clear he benifitted from the presence of Ginn.

sabansuxithard
04-02-2007, 12:05 PM
If we land Blalock in the 2nd, you are gonna see my drunk *** doing cartwheels down the streets of philly proclaiming Blalock falling into our laps in the 2nd rd, is proof that God's favorite team is now officially our beloved Dolphins. PRAISE JESUS!!!

showstopper
04-02-2007, 12:49 PM
BOOM, can you use your crystal ball and tell us who you think we will take in the first and second round?

AC Milan vs Liverpool
Champions League Final again!

Finfanforever
04-02-2007, 01:29 PM
An absolute masterpiece of analysis by Boom. I would expect nothing less. Great job Boomer!

Finsfan1984
04-02-2007, 03:51 PM
Again as always, great job BOOM, but why you got Nelson over Landry, and why Ginn at 7? Those are my only questions on your analysis really. I definitely like the rest of it, especially where you have Branch at 20. I also feel he is a little overrated as you do.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 03:58 PM
BOOM, can you use your crystal ball and tell us who you think we will take in the first and second round?

AC Milan vs Liverpool
Champions League Final again!


I could envisage us taking Ginn and Satele or Carriker and Crowder or Hall and Beekman or Quinn and Blalock or Brown and Davis or a myriad of other connections.

I genuinely don't know mate.

As for AC Milan/Liverpool.......there's a hell of a chance. I have my ticket for the home leg at Anfeld next week, just like I did for the Juventus 1/4 final two years ago. I think it might just happen again.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 04:01 PM
An absolute masterpiece of analysis by Boom. I would expect nothing less. Great job Boomer!

;)

Boomer
04-02-2007, 04:13 PM
Again as always, great job BOOM, but why you got Nelson over Landry, and why Ginn at 7? Those are my only questions on your analysis really. I definitely like the rest of it, especially where you have Branch at 20. I also feel he is a little overrated as you do.


I think Nelson is a bigger playmaker. Flashes in coverage all the time, he's fantastically rangy, he's fluid, a quick twitch guy, he can get outside to the perimeter and make plays, he can play corner, thus can cover the slot and man up on any tight end. I think he's much better in coverage than Landry. Love Landry as well, just think Nelson might be special.

Ginn at 7 because he's an elite playmaker in about 5 seperate facets of the game and his upside is tremendous.

Vendigo
04-02-2007, 04:38 PM
Love Landry as well, just think Nelson might be special.

I have to admit that I'm not completely sold on him. I watched several games and he always struck me as a weak link in Florida's defense. Granted, he makes some fancy looking plays on a regular basis, but I've seen a lot more missed tackles - especially against the run - than I'd like to see from a player who is ranked that high. Maybe I've seen the "wrong" games, but he reminds me a lot - to use a soccer analogy - of that certain kind of goalkeeper who makes the easy saves look absolutely spectacular but who ultimately fails to be reliable when it comes to the mundane stuff. Being from England and apparently a soccer fan, you probably get my drift when I'm saying that he's David James where I prefer Jens Lehmann ;)

RUDEbyallMEANS
04-02-2007, 05:56 PM
I genuinely don't know mate.


:lol: That more than likely has to do with Miami's countless needs.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 05:56 PM
Or that I'm just stupid.

;)

Fingers
04-02-2007, 08:22 PM
I have to admit that I'm not completely sold on him. I watched several games and he always struck me as a weak link in Florida's defense. Granted, he makes some fancy looking plays on a regular basis, but I've seen a lot more missed tackles - especially against the run - than I'd like to see from a player who is ranked that high. Maybe I've seen the "wrong" games, but he reminds me a lot - to use a soccer analogy - of that certain kind of goalkeeper who makes the easy saves look absolutely spectacular but who ultimately fails to be reliable when it comes to the mundane stuff. Being from England and apparently a soccer fan, you probably get my drift when I'm saying that he's David James where I prefer Jens Lehmann ;)

I saw every Gator game and believe me, Nelson was not the weak link. If anything, he made that secondary go. He not only was a sure tackler but was brilliant when the ball was in the air. He is the most likely to be a pro bowler from that very good Gator defense.

Kdawg954
04-02-2007, 08:52 PM
AC Milan vs Liverpool
Champions League Final again!

Now u damn well AC Milan ain't gettin past them Munich boys next leg, C'mon man.

DesertEagle1088
04-02-2007, 08:52 PM
Good info Boomer, thanks.


I have been sleeping on Carriker, is he that good to be above Adams, Okoye and Anderson?


16. Ted Ginn Jr - WR/PR/KR - Ohio State; 40. Joe Staley - OT - Central Michigan; 47. Drew Stanton - QB - Michigan State; 60. Zach Miller - TE - Arizona State; 71. Josh Beekman - OG/C - Boston College

if this actually happened i would cry happy tears. i love you for giving me a dream.

Kdawg954
04-02-2007, 09:00 PM
16. Ted Ginn Jr - WR/PR/KR - Ohio State; 40. Joe Staley - OT - Central Michigan; 47. Drew Stanton - QB - Michigan State; 60. Zach Miller - TE - Arizona State; 71. Josh Beekman - OG/C - Boston College

if this actually happened i would cry happy tears. i love you for giving me a dream.

lol thanks man . . . I'm pretty sure if we come away with Ginn, Staley and STanton . . . nobody would be disappointed at all. Staley may require a trade up, bet hey . . . u never know. We all can dream.

nick1
04-02-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm not hear to debate about Ginn Jr, you know I think he's overrated. but I am here to debate against the fact that we would want to draft him. we have Chambers who works best out of the slot, we also have Kelly Campbell who also is a slot WR. we need a guy who could line up in the #1 or #2 spot and as you said Ginn is a slot guy. I think we need a Dwayne Bowe

BlueFin
04-02-2007, 10:12 PM
Yes....if your going to pay a high price for a QB....i expect him to be alot better than one that only can get a 47 or 54% comp rating. Again...lets remember Weiss isn't going to be him....when he plays in the NFL.

Pete, the thing I notice in watching film on Quinn is that he does see the field well and does go through his progressions, thats one of the biggest deficiencies you see in quarterbacks at the Pro level.

I am not concerned about his freshman or Sophmore year.

nick1
04-02-2007, 10:24 PM
Pete, the thing I notice in watching film on Quinn is that he does see the field well and does go through his progressions, thats one of the biggest deficiencies you see in quarterbacks at the Pro level.

I am not concerned about his freshman or Sophmore year.

I really like the guy but unless we trade up with Detriot I don't see us getting him. Cleveland will probably go QB so the only hope I see is if David Carr goes to Oakland therefore Oakland takes Calvin Johnson and Cleveland takes Jamarcus Russel. Brady Quinn might just fall to us if that happens

AtomX666
04-02-2007, 10:39 PM
We have holes all over the team and if a true impact player at d line or LB is ther at 9,go for it.As much as we want to fill an immediate hole lokking to the future might be the best option.Im not feeling L Brown or Ginn at all.Assuming the QBs are gone Willis,Landry,Branch,Okoye,Carricker or Adams seem like much better options.The last few years have proven that late first round thru the 3rd or 4th can provide elite OLine.Draft talent for the future we hope Cam-Mul is building.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 05:30 AM
I'm not hear to debate about Ginn Jr, you know I think he's overrated. but I am here to debate against the fact that we would want to draft him. we have Chambers who works best out of the slot, we also have Kelly Campbell who also is a slot WR. we need a guy who could line up in the #1 or #2 spot and as you said Ginn is a slot guy. I think we need a Dwayne Bowe

Ginn isn't a slot guy. He's a flanker.

You move him around to create match-ups for him and others, but essentially he's a flanker.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 07:02 AM
I saw every Gator game and believe me, Nelson was not the weak link. If anything, he made that secondary go. He not only was a sure tackler but was brilliant when the ball was in the air. He is the most likely to be a pro bowler from that very good Gator defense.

Fair enough. I'm not going to dispute your impression (I'm fully aware that I'm part of the tiny minority that thinks Nelson horribly overrated), but I recently watched the bowl game again and it solidified my analysis. In about one third of the running downs, Nelson simply didn't do anything besides running aimlessly through the backfield. There were several playes where he could've easily made the tackle (or assist with it) but just didn't. In addition, I saw him missing quite a lot of easy tackles (not in that game, but in the others I saw), because he attempted to deliver a knockout blow, which is a weakness that would concern me a lot. All things considered, I think Nelsen has quite a lot of physical talent, but I'm questioning if he's got the brains to use it. He's playing too cocky at times, while he doesn't seem to fully understand what's going on at others. As I like my safeties to have great field vision and that certain kind of game intelligence, I'd take Landry over Nelson any time. And I'd bne hesitant to pick Nelson in the top 20.

nick1
04-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Ginn isn't a slot guy. He's a flanker.

You move him around to create match-ups for him and others, but essentially he's a flanker.

call him as you will WR isn't big on our list of needs, I do want to improve in that area but we need OL and a future QB much more. Chambers and Booker are going to be the starters and Derek Hagan is up and coming. Vick will do a fine job with Punt Returns, so as I see it we don't need Ginn. he would be a nice luxury sure but we are a team with alot of holes. only a team with no or min. holes could take a chance on a guy like Ginn Jr. his potential is endless but he isn't a sure thing

Boomer
04-03-2007, 11:20 AM
call him as you will WR isn't big on our list of needs, I do want to improve in that area but we need OL and a future QB much more. Chambers and Booker are going to be the starters and Derek Hagan is up and coming. Vick will do a fine job with Punt Returns, so as I see it we don't need Ginn. he would be a nice luxury sure but we are a team with alot of holes. only a team with no or min. holes could take a chance on a guy like Ginn Jr. his potential is endless but he isn't a sure thing

Really? If it's not a big area of need, why are we looking to upgrade it and why is Mueller perpetually talking up the fact that the team needs an upgrade of speed at the position? Why have we conducted so many interviews with wide receivers?

Why did we try and get Donte Stallworth?

Why did we try and get Kelley Washington?

So Marcus Vick all of a sudden has manifested into a 'fine' punt returner? The evidence of that is where?

Boomer
04-03-2007, 11:21 AM
And if we have no interest in Ginn, why did we:

a) waste an interview with him in Indianapolis?

b) Fly to Columbus to speak to him and take him away for a lengthy chalk talk discussion, under timed conditions?

c) Why are we flying back to Columbus to see him work out?

Boomer
04-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Fair enough. I'm not going to dispute your impression (I'm fully aware that I'm part of the tiny minority that thinks Nelson horribly overrated), but I recently watched the bowl game again and it solidified my analysis. In about one third of the running downs, Nelson simply didn't do anything besides running aimlessly through the backfield. There were several playes where he could've easily made the tackle (or assist with it) but just didn't. In addition, I saw him missing quite a lot of easy tackles (not in that game, but in the others I saw), because he attempted to deliver a knockout blow, which is a weakness that would concern me a lot. All things considered, I think Nelsen has quite a lot of physical talent, but I'm questioning if he's got the brains to use it. He's playing too cocky at times, while he doesn't seem to fully understand what's going on at others. As I like my safeties to have great field vision and that certain kind of game intelligence, I'd take Landry over Nelson any time. And I'd bne hesitant to pick Nelson in the top 20.

Whilst I think wrap up tackling is something opf an issue for Nelson at times, he gets a mulligan for the BCS Title game as his mother had passed away only days before. To even be on the field was an achievement in itself.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 11:39 AM
Whilst I think wrap up tackling is something opf an issue for Nelson at times, he gets a mulligan for the BCS Title game as his mother had passed away only days before. To even be on the field was an achievement in itself.

Thanks for the info, Boomer. I didn't know that. That explains why he seemed absent minded in the BCS game, but the tackling issues still worry me.

But maybe I'm a bit too critical in this year's draft. An awful lot of players seem to come with one question mark or the other. Why couldn't we have this year's picks in last year's draft ...

nick1
04-03-2007, 11:50 AM
Really? If it's not a big area of need, why are we looking to upgrade it and why is Mueller perpetually talking up the fact that the team needs an upgrade of speed at the position? Why have we conducted so many interviews with wide receivers?

Why did we try and get Donte Stallworth?

Why did we try and get Kelley Washington?

So Marcus Vick all of a sudden has manifested into a 'fine' punt returner? The evidence of that is where?

we also interviewed alot of other prospects at other positions. fact of the matter is that it is probably big enough of a need that we will go WR in round 2 but not round 1, not for a guy slated to go alot lower then #9. Mueller wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't looking at all of his options. but Ginn at #9 would be a huge reach and OL with Levi Brown or QB with Brady Quinn are much better ways to go. those are both bigger needs than WR in my opinion and I'm sure Mueller agrees. he has interviewed both of those guys

nick1
04-03-2007, 11:52 AM
And if we have no interest in Ginn, why did we:

a) waste an interview with him in Indianapolis?

b) Fly to Columbus to speak to him and take him away for a lengthy chalk talk discussion, under timed conditions?

c) Why are we flying back to Columbus to see him work out?

does Brady Quinn ring a bell? we did the same thing with him and with a few other 1st round prospects

PyroDOLFAN
04-03-2007, 11:56 AM
How'd Brady get Over Thomas.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 12:20 PM
those are both bigger needs than WR in my opinion and I'm sure Mueller agrees. he has interviewed both of those guys

Wait a minute. You're arguing that interviewing Ginn means nothing because Mueller interviewed other guys as well. I can live with that (although Boomer is perfectly right in saying that you don't spend that much time with a prospect if you're not interested in drafting him), but then you're pulling exactly the same argument by saying that Mueller supposedly agrees with you because he interviewed these other guys. Which is it? Either the interviews mean nothing (then interviewing Quinn or Brown means nothing as well) or they are a good indicator for a team's interest - and then interviewing Ginn indicates exactly as much as interviewing Brown or Quinn.

Besides, Mueller more or less clearly stated on several occasions that he does not believe in draftin according to need.

nick1
04-03-2007, 12:26 PM
Wait a minute. You're arguing that interviewing Ginn means nothing because Mueller interviewed other guys as well. I can live with that (although Boomer is perfectly right in saying that you don't spend that much time with a prospect if you're not interested in drafting him), but then you're pulling exactly the same argument by saying that Mueller supposedly agrees with you because he interviewed these other guys. Which is it? Either the interviews mean nothing (then interviewing Quinn or Brown means nothing as well) or they are a good indicator for a team's interest - and then interviewing Ginn indicates exactly as much as interviewing Brown or Quinn.

Besides, Mueller more or less clearly stated on several occasions that he does not believe in draftin according to need.

take it as you will but Ginn isn't the only guy we interveiwed, just because we interviwed him doesn't mean we will draft him

emocomputerjock
04-03-2007, 12:28 PM
Wait a minute. You're arguing that interviewing Ginn means nothing because Mueller interviewed other guys as well. I can live with that (although Boomer is perfectly right in saying that you don't spend that much time with a prospect if you're not interested in drafting him), but then you're pulling exactly the same argument by saying that Mueller supposedly agrees with you because he interviewed these other guys. Which is it? Either the interviews mean nothing (then interviewing Quinn or Brown means nothing as well) or they are a good indicator for a team's interest - and then interviewing Ginn indicates exactly as much as interviewing Brown or Quinn.

Besides, Mueller more or less clearly stated on several occasions that he does not believe in draftin according to need.

To be honest, if Meuller said anything else he'd be out of a job. BPA is just a talking point when you're talking first round. Of course you want a guy who can make an impact on your team, unless you can grab a guy someone else wants worse and get a mess of picks for him. We might be in a position like that come the draft, but I don't see it happening.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 12:33 PM
take it as you will but Ginn isn't the only guy we interveiwed, just because we interviwed him doesn't mean we will draft him

Boomer never said that we would draft him. He said that it was a possibility and judging from the actions of our FO it indeed is. Mueller is a BPA kind of GM, and if he comes to the conclusion that Ginn is the BPA at #9, he'll probably go for it. Do we know that Mueller thinks him the BPA? No. But there are strong indicators that Ginn is among those who Mueller considers the BPA pool. That doesn't mean we're eventually going to draft him, but it does mean that we are giving it strong consideration. And that's all Boomer said.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 12:40 PM
To be honest, if Meuller said anything else he'd be out of a job.

Why would he? He wouldn't be the first or only GM who commited to drafting players that fit the system or fill a big need. A lot of GMs did and said so and none of them were fired because of it (if they were, it was rather because the players they drafted didn't fill a need or fit the system that perfectly).

emocomputerjock
04-03-2007, 01:00 PM
Why would he? He wouldn't be the first or only GM who commited to drafting players that fit the system or fill a big need. A lot of GMs did and said so and none of them were fired because of it (if they were, it was rather because the players they drafted didn't fill a need or fit the system that perfectly).

Call it some strange unwritten rule, but for whatever reason BPA is the spoken rule, and need is what goes on in real life.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 01:09 PM
Call it some strange unwritten rule, but for whatever reason BPA is the spoken rule, and need is what goes on in real life.

Sorry, mate, but that's simply not true. There are in fact several GMs I've heard talking about the draft in recent weeks and years who didn't even get close to using the word BPA. Saban was just one of them. The unwritten rule is that you don't talk about draft strategy at all. So when someone like Randy Mueller more or less clearly states that he'll go for BPA that tells you something.

Besides, I wouldn't agree to need being the real life choice. Many NFL teams don't draft according to need because it's dangerous.

miamitd13
04-03-2007, 01:38 PM
Boomer - a quick note of thanks for your efforts and insight here. I have a quick question I was hoping to get your thoughts on.

So many mocks have us taking Branch at 9 and most with comments saying how non existant our interior defensive line is. Are they just not aware of our young depth with Fred Evans, Rodrique Wright, and (possibly) Manny Wright.

or

Is it a case where we as Dolphin fans are over valuing these guys - what's your assessment of these young defensive lineman and is D-line such a need and/or slam dunk pick at number 9?

thanks again...

just for the record, my round one hopefuls

1) Quinn - willing to trade up as high as the Bucs pick to get him
2) Landry
3) Peterson
4) Ginn

Fingers
04-03-2007, 01:53 PM
Fair enough. I'm not going to dispute your impression (I'm fully aware that I'm part of the tiny minority that thinks Nelson horribly overrated), but I recently watched the bowl game again and it solidified my analysis. In about one third of the running downs, Nelson simply didn't do anything besides running aimlessly through the backfield. There were several playes where he could've easily made the tackle (or assist with it) but just didn't. In addition, I saw him missing quite a lot of easy tackles (not in that game, but in the others I saw), because he attempted to deliver a knockout blow, which is a weakness that would concern me a lot. All things considered, I think Nelsen has quite a lot of physical talent, but I'm questioning if he's got the brains to use it. He's playing too cocky at times, while he doesn't seem to fully understand what's going on at others. As I like my safeties to have great field vision and that certain kind of game intelligence, I'd take Landry over Nelson any time. And I'd bne hesitant to pick Nelson in the top 20.
While Nelson does get caught up with attempting to make the big hit at times, he is very good at run support. Further, Florida's defense was designed to let Nelson run freely due to his recovery speed. It may have looked as though he ran aimlessly, but more times than not he was in position to make the play either on the ball while in the air or chasing down a running play. I am not sure on what basis you say he lacks brains or is too cocky. However, that's what these forums are for - expressing your opinion. I enjoyed the debate.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 01:53 PM
I'm curious about Boomer's opinion on that as well, but he'd have a hard time convincing me that we're set with two seventh round draft choices and a 5th round supplemental pick who didn't play football for a year. That said, I think that both Evans and Wright definitely have talent (Wright might be better suited to play end down the road though). However, they were late round picks for a reason. Rod Wright because of his injury and poor work ethic, Fred Evans because quite frankly no one considered him NFL starting caliber. Quite apparently, we didn't either. If Evans develops into a solid backup, that's about the best you can expect from a 7th round choice - there's always that slim chance that he'll become more, of course, but that's nothing you can rely on. To me, Evans looked like a decent future backup - not a dominant tackle.

When it comes to Manny Wright, he definitely has the talent to start in the NFL (I just don't see him as a nose tackle). However, with his questionable work ethic and his constant weight problems (not to mention the fact that he doesn't seem mature enough), I wouldn't rely on him as well. I think there's a bigger chance that he'll be out of the league in a couple of years than that he's starting for the Dolphins. So essentially our d-line depth consists of three questionmarks. One (or two) of them might pan out, but the question is whether or not you can or should rely on that. I'd say no. However, with the resigning of Traylor, we have the luxury of ignoring that problem another season, hoping that we'll hit the jackpot with one of those three. If I had the chance of drafting a dominant tackle, however (I don't see one though), I'd go for it.

BlueFin
04-03-2007, 02:34 PM
I'm curious about Boomer's opinion on that as well, but he'd have a hard time convincing me that we're set with two seventh round draft choices and a 5th round supplemental pick who didn't play football for a year. That said, I think that both Evans and Wright definitely have talent (Wright might be better suited to play end down the road though). However, they were late round picks for a reason. Rod Wright because of his injury and poor work ethic, Fred Evans because quite frankly no one considered him NFL starting caliber. Quite apparently, we didn't either. If Evans develops into a solid backup, that's about the best you can expect from a 7th round choice - there's always that slim chance that he'll become more, of course, but that's nothing you can rely on. To me, Evans looked like a decent future backup - not a dominant tackle.

When it comes to Manny Wright, he definitely has the talent to start in the NFL (I just don't see him as a nose tackle). However, with his questionable work ethic and his constant weight problems (not to mention the fact that he doesn't seem mature enough), I wouldn't rely on him as well. I think there's a bigger chance that he'll be out of the league in a couple of years than that he's starting for the Dolphins. So essentially our d-line depth consists of three questionmarks. One (or two) of them might pan out, but the question is whether or not you can or should rely on that. I'd say no. However, with the resigning of Traylor, we have the luxury of ignoring that problem another season, hoping that we'll hit the jackpot with one of those three. If I had the chance of drafting a dominant tackle, however (I don't see one though), I'd go for it.

I think Okoye and Branch both fit the bill, the question is, how does Mueller feel about what we already have?

Boomer
04-03-2007, 04:37 PM
we also interviewed alot of other prospects at other positions. fact of the matter is that it is probably big enough of a need that we will go WR in round 2 but not round 1, not for a guy slated to go alot lower then #9. Mueller wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't looking at all of his options. but Ginn at #9 would be a huge reach and OL with Levi Brown or QB with Brady Quinn are much better ways to go. those are both bigger needs than WR in my opinion and I'm sure Mueller agrees. he has interviewed both of those guys


A huge reach?????

Says who????

Not many people. Kiper has him in his top 10 again now it looks as though he'll run before the draft. Joe Staley will get taken before Brown. Staley may well be the pick at 9.

I'm glad you are so sure of what Mueller thinks.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 04:38 PM
does Brady Quinn ring a bell? we did the same thing with him and with a few other 1st round prospects

The likelihood of Quinn being there at 9 is what?

And please enlighten me about which injured players we flew to see, solely to have a chalk talk session with?

fishypete
04-03-2007, 04:39 PM
A huge reach?????

Says who????

Not many people. Kiper has him in his top 10 again now it looks as though he'll run before the draft. Joe Staley will get taken before Brown. Staley may well be the pick at 9.

I'm glad you are so sure of what Mueller thinks.

I like Staley alot Boomer...but you really believe the Dolphins would select him with the 9th pick?

Boomer
04-03-2007, 04:50 PM
Boomer - a quick note of thanks for your efforts and insight here. I have a quick question I was hoping to get your thoughts on.

So many mocks have us taking Branch at 9 and most with comments saying how non existant our interior defensive line is. Are they just not aware of our young depth with Fred Evans, Rodrique Wright, and (possibly) Manny Wright.

or

Is it a case where we as Dolphin fans are over valuing these guys - what's your assessment of these young defensive lineman and is D-line such a need and/or slam dunk pick at number 9?

thanks again...

just for the record, my round one hopefuls

1) Quinn - willing to trade up as high as the Bucs pick to get him
2) Landry
3) Peterson
4) Ginn


Branch is absolutely one of the most difficult players to call. You can watch 10 games and you'll see 10 different performances. When he's on, he can be unplayable, but when hs off, he's a liability, if I'm frank.

I think we, as fans, who live and breathe Miami every day, are more aware of our young depth. But on the other hand, what have they done? Manny showed brief flashes, the team seem very high on Freddie and Rodrique Wright wasn't a possible first round pick for nothing.

But I say again - what have they done?

The re-signing of Traylor was important and you can look at players like Tank Tyler and Paul Soliai in rounds two and three or there's the elephant in the room that is Branch. I don't know what the team thinks about his inability to play consistently with a high motor and whether they think that it's not so much of a problem with us because of our rotation?

The Combine threw up some off field issues with scouts in regards some of the people he runs with - much like they do with Troy Smith and Marshawn Lynch. I'm really not sure, but he absolutely has to be a possibility at 9, considering what he can do for us.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 04:51 PM
I like Staley alot Boomer...but you really believe the Dolphins would select him with the 9th pick?

Yes Pete, I truly do.

I think if someone put a gun to my head and said 'name three most likely picks at 9', I'd say:

Ted Ginn Jr.
Adam Carriker
Joe Staley.

fishypete
04-03-2007, 05:05 PM
Yes Pete, I truly do.

I think if someone put a gun to my head and said 'name three most likely picks at 9', I'd say:

Ted Ginn Jr.
Adam Carriker
Joe Staley.

WOW.

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 05:52 PM
While Nelson does get caught up with attempting to make the big hit at times, he is very good at run support.

You've obviously seen more Gator games than I did (it's not as easy to keep up with all draft prospects when you're not living in the States), and maybe I've just seen the "wrong ones", but in the ones I saw, I can't fully agree to that assessment. I've always had the impression that he is a tad bit too hesitant and doesn't always recognize how a running play is going to develop. I've just seen some more instances of Nelson not going after the ball carrier quick enough than I'd like to see from a player ranked that high. That's not to say that he's a bad football player by any means. I just don't have him in the top 20 of my board, that's all.


I am not sure on what basis you say he lacks brains or is too cocky.

Well, the brains part is solidified by a lot of scouts who question his intelligence on and off the field. Obviously I can only comment on the on field part (and rely on what insiders say about the off field stuff), but consistently going after the big hit instead of making the easy tackle usually is a sign of either cockiness or a lack of game intelligence. It's like a running back who doesn't go through the hole because he wants to make another fancy cutback. Just not very smart.


However, that's what these forums are for - expressing your opinion. I enjoyed the debate.

Same here :)

Vendigo
04-03-2007, 06:02 PM
I think Okoye and Branch both fit the bill

I'm not sure that they do. Branch's stock is falling rapidly (him sliding out of Kiper's big board is a bad sign - I don't think Kiper's a phenomenal draft guru, but he's got good sources) and there's a bit too much bust potential there than you'd like at #9. Okoye is a freak, but technically he's not an ideal 3-4 NT which is what we would need. You could argue with his age and the fact that he might be able to put up enough weight, but again you'd be facing a kind of gamble that you don't like to take with a top 10 pick - not when you could easily take a can't miss prospect like Carriker.

As I've said earlier, I don't see the type of DT we ought to be looking for in the first two rounds. I liked Branch a lot a couple of weeks back, but his workout and the fact that he seemed to have trouble during the interviews make me wonder. When you're drafting inside the top 10, you absolutely have to take a player who you're convinced will be a playmaker for you. And I don't think Okoye or Branch fit that bill. If I had to chose, I#d go with Okoye any day, though.

BlueFin
04-03-2007, 08:32 PM
I'm not sure that they do. Branch's stock is falling rapidly (him sliding out of Kiper's big board is a bad sign - I don't think Kiper's a phenomenal draft guru, but he's got good sources) and there's a bit too much bust potential there than you'd like at #9. Okoye is a freak, but technically he's not an ideal 3-4 NT which is what we would need. You could argue with his age and the fact that he might be able to put up enough weight, but again you'd be facing a kind of gamble that you don't like to take with a top 10 pick - not when you could easily take a can't miss prospect like Carriker.

As I've said earlier, I don't see the type of DT we ought to be looking for in the first two rounds. I liked Branch a lot a couple of weeks back, but his workout and the fact that he seemed to have trouble during the interviews make me wonder. When you're drafting inside the top 10, you absolutely have to take a player who you're convinced will be a playmaker for you. And I don't think Okoye or Branch fit that bill. If I had to chose, I#d go with Okoye any day, though.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock into Kiper's "Helter Skelter" amazing shifting board, there has been way too much movement in it. Do not think all team boards will match Kipers. I'm not saying the guy doesn't know his stuff, but this year in particular his board seems to be blowing with the wind all over the place.

I'm not saying we should draft Branch or Okoye, but I don't think either would disapoint if drafted to play D-line here.

Vendigo
04-04-2007, 05:38 AM
I wouldn't put a lot of stock into Kiper's "Helter Skelter" amazing shifting board, there has been way too much movement in it. Do not think all team boards will match Kipers. I'm not saying the guy doesn't know his stuff, but this year in particular his board seems to be blowing with the wind all over the place.

And that's usually a sign that team boards are moving as well. As I said, Mel Kiper isn't the best scout out there (he isn't even a good one in my opinion), but apart from Rick Gosselin, he's got the best sources in the business. If he has Branch falling out of his top 25, then a lot (not necessarily all, of course) of teams have him falling out as well.

It's not that unusual to see Kiper's board blowing with the wind (nice expression, by the way) that time of the year. That's usually when teams really dive into the scouting part, watching tapes, conducting interviews, grading players and such. There's usually a lot of similar movement in team boards - Kiper is just reflecting that.


I'm not saying we should draft Branch or Okoye, but I don't think either would disapoint if drafted to play D-line here.

I think Boomer nailed it by saying that Branch is somewhat of a gamble (which is why I think teams have him drop out of the top 20). He dominates in one game and does nothing in the next. Teams were willing to concede that he didn't have to do a whole lot in those games because he could rely on his bulk, but after Krumrie exposed his technical weaknesses (and rather poor way of dealing with hard coaching) at the Michigan pro day, I'd be surprised to see him go top 10. Technical issues with poor work ethic are what busts are made of.

BlueFin
04-04-2007, 07:01 AM
And that's usually a sign that team boards are moving as well. As I said, Mel Kiper isn't the best scout out there (he isn't even a good one in my opinion), but apart from Rick Gosselin, he's got the best sources in the business. If he has Branch falling out of his top 25, then a lot (not necessarily all, of course) of teams have him falling out as well.

It's not that unusual to see Kiper's board blowing with the wind (nice expression, by the way) that time of the year. That's usually when teams really dive into the scouting part, watching tapes, conducting interviews, grading players and such. There's usually a lot of similar movement in team boards - Kiper is just reflecting that.



I think Boomer nailed it by saying that Branch is somewhat of a gamble (which is why I think teams have him drop out of the top 20). He dominates in one game and does nothing in the next. Teams were willing to concede that he didn't have to do a whole lot in those games because he could rely on his bulk, but after Krumrie exposed his technical weaknesses (and rather poor way of dealing with hard coaching) at the Michigan pro day, I'd be surprised to see him go top 10. Technical issues with poor work ethic are what busts are made of.

I don't think you've seen Boomer's board, or Boomer's opinions fluctuate to the extreme that we've seen Kipers jump around this year, and I guess we'll have to disagree about that but I've never seen Kipers board change so drastically three weeks before a draft.

What also should be kept in mind is that Kiper may be getting fed a bunch of propaganda about certain prospects that certain teams may want to see fall, one thing is for certain, the teams are better now than they've ever been about spreading misinformation, I highly doubt Kiper's sources are going to be more loyal to Kiper than the team they work for, and are going to willingly give him information thats hurts thier chances of getting the players they want.

Vendigo
04-04-2007, 07:15 AM
and I guess we'll have to disagree about that but I've never seen Kipers board change so drastically three weeks before a draft.

I agree that this year seems to be an up and down for some players. And I'm not going to argue that Kiper is right with every projection, but I have a hard time thinking of a player that was drafted top 10 and wasn't on Kiper's board.


I highly doubt Kiper's sources are going to be more loyal to Kiper than the team they work for, and are going to willingly give him information thats hurts thier chances of getting the players they want.

Good point. But I don't think that any NFL-FO cares that much about Kiper's board. I'd be surprised if they read anything in a prospect moving up or down there. Take Rick Gosselin, for example. Teams obviously don't have a problem with feeding him absolutely accurate information on who they will eventually pick or have high on their boards.

PHINSfan
04-04-2007, 09:41 AM
Simon thanks for all the info, once again you're the man!!!
And as far as Staley goes....there's a lot of talk about this guy down here in Davie, specially after the tremendous pro day he had. If they manage to trade down, then I trully believe he will be our guy. Or as Simon says:
He could very well be that guy at #9!

BlueFin
04-04-2007, 11:14 AM
Good point. But I don't think that any NFL-FO cares that much about Kiper's board. I'd be surprised if they read anything in a prospect moving up or down there.

Which was exactly my original point, just because Branch has fallen off of Kipers board after being a top five, that does not mean he has fallen off the teams boards per say, he is a very big man who will clog the middle for somebody.

MastR_EvaluatoR
04-04-2007, 11:19 AM
You've obviously seen more Gator games than I did (it's not as easy to keep up with all draft prospects when you're not living in the States), and maybe I've just seen the "wrong ones", but in the ones I saw, I can't fully agree to that assessment. I've always had the impression that he is a tad bit too hesitant and doesn't always recognize how a running play is going to develop. I've just seen some more instances of Nelson not going after the ball carrier quick enough than I'd like to see from a player ranked that high. That's not to say that he's a bad football player by any means. I just don't have him in the top 20 of my board, that's all.



Well, the brains part is solidified by a lot of scouts who question his intelligence on and off the field. Obviously I can only comment on the on field part (and rely on what insiders say about the off field stuff), but consistently going after the big hit instead of making the easy tackle usually is a sign of either cockiness or a lack of game intelligence. It's like a running back who doesn't go through the hole because he wants to make another fancy cutback. Just not very smart.



Same here :)

I agree .. The thing about Nelson I see is, he always seems a tad late to arrive in his coverages.. While Landry always seems to be there at the right time ..

I think Griffin and Merriweather will both be better safeties than Nelson..

Vendigo
04-04-2007, 11:27 AM
Which was exactly my original point

No, not really. You argued that Kiper's board wasn't very representative for the invidual team boards, while I think (based on experience) that Kiper's board is in fact a very good indicator for where teams rank the top players. As I said ealier, you'd have a hard time finding a top 10 player who Kiper didn't have on his big board. If a players drops out, that's quite some reason for concern in my experience, as usually his top 20 players end up being the top 20 drafted (just not in the order Kiper thinks they will).

I'm saying that if the teams feed Kiper their information, why would they act upon information they provided themselves? Makes no sense to me. If a lot of teams had Branch ranked high, he'd be in Kiper's board. In my experience, it's really as simple as that (and the one real asset of Mel Kiper).

Fingers
04-04-2007, 11:39 AM
I think Griffin and Merriweather will both be better safeties than Nelson..[/quote]

I can't speak to how well Griffin and Merriweather will play in the NFL, but I would say that you are certainly in the minority in saying they are better prospects than Nelson. For what its worth, most draft gurus think Nelson is either the #1 or #2 safety.

BlueFin
04-04-2007, 11:50 AM
No, not really. You argued that Kiper's board wasn't very representative for the invidual team boards, while I think (based on experience) that Kiper's board is in fact a very good indicator for where teams rank the top players. As I said ealier, you'd have a hard time finding a top 10 player who Kiper didn't have on his big board. If a players drops out, that's quite some reason for concern in my experience, as usually his top 20 players end up being the top 20 drafted (just not in the order Kiper thinks they will).

I'm saying that if the teams feed Kiper their information, why would they act upon information they provided themselves? Makes no sense to me. If a lot of teams had Branch ranked high, he'd be in Kiper's board. In my experience, it's really as simple as that (and the one real asset of Mel Kiper).

Dude, consider that teams may want Branch to fall and are feeding Kiper crap, we don't agree, and thats ok.

RichmondWeb
04-04-2007, 11:30 PM
T-Rock and Jim Miller interviewed Branch on Sirius today. He says he's being called out of shape for getting gassed on a 15 play drive in the 4Q. He says he is prepared to prove the "experts" wrong on the field. He also says he can play all DL positions and thinks of himself as the next Richard Seymore. Either way, teams looking for a big guy who can move will snag him if they get a chance. I think where he goes is more a function of who's picking where and what they need, rather than a dislike for Branch. Branch also got a ringing endorsement from opposing coach Pete Carroll who understands that all 330# players tend to get tired; but, he said his talents are special for his size.

RW

RichmondWeb
04-04-2007, 11:41 PM
Boomer, today Schein and Wilcotts interviewed Jordan Palmer on the radio. He was exteremely impressive in his interview. He seems very familiar with the NFL and pages ahead of some other QB prospects (since he has hung around with his older brother Carson) and he is extremely smart and articulate. He said he went to UTEP so he could start as a frosh and to get out of Carson's shadow. The critics question his picks but, Palmer said they were just trying to convert third downs and he was just throwing where he was instructed to according to their scheme. Could this guy be another Carson Palmer to be had in round 2? (S.O.D!!!) What are your opinions of the second tier QB's? Thanks!

RW

Finole
04-05-2007, 05:04 PM
This is how I see it on March 31st 2007. I refuse the right to change my mind ;)

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Brady Quinn
4. Joe Thomas
5. Patrick Willis
6. Adam Carriker
7. Ted Ginn Jr.
8. Gaines Adams
9. Amobi Okoye
10. Reggie Nelson
11. Jamaal Anderson
12. LaRon Landry
13. Darrelle Revis
14. Leon Hall
15. JaMarcus Russell


And if I was to take it to 20, my next 5 would be:

16. Chis Houston
17. Levi Brown
18. Jarvis Moss
19. Robert Meacham
20. Alan Branch

Where's Marshawn Lynch?

Boomer
04-05-2007, 05:33 PM
Not in the top 20.

Finole
04-05-2007, 05:42 PM
Not in the top 20.

That's pretty bold. Yours is the first list of Top 20 Prospects I've seen that doesn't include Marshawn Lynch.

GCD960
04-05-2007, 05:46 PM
That's pretty bold. Yours is the first list of Top 20 Prospects I've seen that doesn't include Marshawn Lynch.

Who would you pull to replace with Lynch?

Boomer
04-05-2007, 05:54 PM
That's pretty bold. Yours is the first list of Top 20 Prospects I've seen that doesn't include Marshawn Lynch.


Not really. I see 20+ players better than Lynch. And not with the baggage that Lynch carries.

Finole
04-05-2007, 06:56 PM
This is how I see it on March 31st 2007. I refuse the right to change my mind ;)

1. Calvin Johnson
3. Brady Quinn
4. Joe Thomas
8. Gaines Adams
15. JaMarcus Russell

Unless the Fins trade down, it's safe to say we don't have a realistic shot at drafting Johnson, Quinn, Thomas, Adams, or Russell.


2. Adrian Peterson
5. Patrick Willis
9. Amobi Okoye
11. Jamaal Anderson
12. LaRon Landry
20. Alan Branch

Simple math dictates three of these guys will still be on the board when the Fins pick. Question is: Which three?

It's interesting to note that the only offensive player is Peterson. Here's a thought: If Levi Brown is off the board, and Adrian Peterson falls, the Fins may very well draft Peterson.

Think about it: Ricky Williams is no guarantee. And most teams are going with a 2-back system nowadays. Plus we could always trade Williams, Brown, or Peterson at the end of the season.

I would think Mueller would try to trade down and acquire another pick or two, but if he couldn't swing a deal, then it wouldn't surprise me if we end up with Adrian Peterson on our roster in 2007.


6. Adam Carriker
Another Beast. I personally saw him a couple of times in 2006 and followed his game closely and didn't think he had a 'great' year. But he played well enough and you can't argue with the attitude from moment 1 of this draft process; he's re-written the textbook for attitude, application, dedication and flat out ability. He can be a 3 or a 5 technique guy for us and whilst he's probably not going to be a 12/14 sack guy, his ability to collapse the pocket, to shut down the run and chase down plays from the backside make him a very valuable commodity . Looks like another can't miss guy. The white Richard Seymour.

As good as Carriker is, I haven't seen him rated in anybody's Top Ten (except John Murphy from Yahoo!). If the Fins want him, we should be able to get him.


7. Ted Ginn Jr.
This might be considered high, but this is a legitimate 4.2 forty guy, who can catch, who hasn't gotten close to scraping the ceiling of his talent. I’ve said it for ages, but his x-factor ability on offense, to dominate that strong side of the field and to absolutely have to be accounted for on every play, makes him so valuable. And we haven’t even talked return game. An offensive guru like Cam should be able to get him the ball as a WR as the Z, in the slot, on reverses, middle screens, you could line him up as a back or even as a run/pass option at QB. AND he can play some corner as well if need be. Has the work ethic and mentality to dominate.

I like Ted Ginn. I'd like him even more at #17 with an additional 2nd round pick for us.


10. Reggie Nelson
A JUCO transfer, he's a little undersized weight wise, but he's ripped, he's thick and he has a big bubble, which he uses to perfection when he brings the load. Really rangy, ridiculously athletic and outstanding when the ball's in the air. He just makes plays and you can't argue with what he brings to the table as an all rounder. I actually think he could play SS for Miami as well as the free.

Gotta give you major props here, Boomer. While Nelson hasn't cracked anybody else's Top Ten, he is creeping up almost every scout's draft board.


13. Darrelle Revis
Have liked this kid since forever. Can play cover or zone, has great size, good speed, but what I love is his instincts to drop off a route and come underneath to make the play and his ability against the run. I actually think his best position might be free safety, which is a compliment, considering I think he's the 13th best player in the draft as a CB. I want to see a better technique in his backpedal – he plays high, but he flips his hips without losing anything and has good awareness of the ball. Love him.

Half the scouting reports I've seen have Revis going late 1st round. The other half have him about where you put him, Boomer. At any rate, he doesn't make sense at #9. (Unless he turns out to be a Pro-Bowl corner.)

No way we draft Revis unless we trade down.


14. Leon Hall
Fundamentally sound corner. Probably not in the mould of a great, All Pro type, but likely to be a pretty solid #1 for 6/7 years. Like Revis he has punt return ablities. He covers well, tackles well, runs well, he's smart. He's good. Really good. But just not great. Thought he had a disappointing senior season.

Mel Kiper, Pete Prisco, Fox Sports, and ESPN all have Hall rated at 9-11. So he is a very viable option for the Fins I'd say. The other thing I really like about Hall is the fact that he has no character issues. At all. While some of the later prospects present serious concerns: Marcus McCauley, Eric Wright, and Jonathan Wade to name three.

If we do go defense, I wouldn't be surprised if Hall was the guy.

Finole
04-05-2007, 07:04 PM
Who would you pull to replace with Lynch?

That's an excellent question. I'd say Lynch gets an average rating of 15. So all things being equal (on Boomer's list) Russell would get bumped.

Finole
04-05-2007, 07:32 PM
And if I was to take it to 20, my next 5 would be:

16. Chis Houston
17. Levi Brown
18. Jarvis Moss
19. Robert Meacham
20. Alan Branch

It's hard to know who to believe, so I've been collecting everybody's prospect ratings, and then I average them out. Here's where these five fall (including Boomer's rating):

11. Alan Branch
12. Levi Brown
22. Chis Houston
23. Jarvis Moss
24. Robert Meacham

These are just averages. Not my rating. But an average of every rating I've seen for them.

colmax
04-05-2007, 08:29 PM
Anyone rising or falling as of late? Do not really pay attention to draft boards....

(Not necessarily to Boom, just anyone)

Boomer
04-06-2007, 03:05 AM
Staley, Houston, Revis, Steve Smith rising.

Brown tumbling a tad

Finole
04-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Staley, Houston, Revis, Steve Smith rising.

Brown tumbling a tad

Actually, Gil Brandt just moved Levi Brown into his Top Ten. So he made up some ground there.

I'd say Marshall Yanda, Dane Uperesa, and Andy Alleman are rising. As well as Mike Walker and Reggie Nelson.

Boomer
04-07-2007, 08:47 AM
One man's opinion does not a draft make.

Alleman's stock is going so high, he might sneak R1.

colmax
04-07-2007, 11:11 AM
Actually, Gil Brandt just moved Levi Brown into his Top Ten. So he made up some ground there.

I'd say Marshall Yanda, Dane Uperesa, and Andy Alleman are rising. As well as Mike Walker and Reggie Nelson.

I haven't heard of these guys. Could you give a little insight?


Thanks.....

Boomer
04-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Half the scouting reports I've seen have Revis going late 1st round. The other half have him about where you put him, Boomer. At any rate, he doesn't make sense at #9. (Unless he turns out to be a Pro-Bowl corner.)

No way we draft Revis unless we trade down.






Not buying that at all.

Boomer
04-07-2007, 04:07 PM
I haven't heard of these guys. Could you give a little insight?


Thanks.....

Yanda is a T/G from Iowa, Uperesa is a power T from Hawaii who Houck has interviewed twice, running the Hawaii pro day. Alleman is a G/C from Akron, again, another who Miami like.

colmax
04-07-2007, 04:49 PM
Yanda is a T/G from Iowa, Uperesa is a power T from Hawaii who Houck has interviewed twice, running the Hawaii pro day. Alleman is a G/C from Akron, again, another who Miami like.

Much appreciated, Boom...

RichmondWeb
04-07-2007, 08:58 PM
Boomer, who are your top 10 QB's? What about Jordan Palmer?