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Trowa
04-02-2007, 05:01 PM
This is just some things I've been thinking about. Not saying any of this is going to actually happen, just saying that if it did it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

First let us assume that JeMarcus Russel is valued over Brady Quinn on team's draft boards. If Oakland signs David Carr as they're trying to do they're going to pick Calvin Johnson at #1. That blows up most any trade possibility Detroit has because I feel most teams are trying to get #2 for Calvin Johnson. The question here is, do the Lions take a QB with Jon Kitna on the team? I don't think they do. I think they go with Joe Thomas to try and invigorate that offense that features Roy Williams and Kevin Jones.

Cleveland at #3 I think is 100% looking at Adrian Peterson. Cleveland is looking at Trent Green and if they acquire him I strongly doubt that they draft a QB in the first round.

Tampa Bay has an interesting spot. If JeMarcus Russel has fallen this far do they nab him here? Chris Simms future is in question and Jeff Garcia isn't the long term answer there.

Washington/Chicago will most likely not be looking at QB. Arizona has Matt Leinart. Minnesota could pose a problem. If they feel Tarvaris Jackson isn't the answer they could be looking at Quinn/Russel. But the rumors I've been hearing have Drew Bledsoe going to the Vikings which tells me that they want to give Jackson a chance.

Atlanta has Vick and wont be after a QB in the first round. So that leaves Miami sitting at #9 with the possibility of Quinn/Russel dropping to us. If Oakland gets Carr and Cleveland gets Green I think we only have to worry about Detroit and Minny in front of us unless someone jumps up in the draft to take a QB. But looking at the teams in the NFL there aren't that many outside of the top 10 that have a pressing need at QB.

Like I said already, this is all my opinion. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm not saying it's not. I'm just throwing it out there as a scenario where we could get Brady Quinn if the Fins decide he's our guy. But I would like to know just how feasable you guys think this is.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 05:04 PM
Be aware that Adrian Peterson might go at 3, 4 or 5.

TXFinFan
04-02-2007, 05:09 PM
Be aware that Adrian Peterson might go at 3, 4 or 5.

True. I think there is a very good chance that either Quinn or Russell will fall to us. Look what happened to Lineart last year.

Boomer, who would you choose between the two?

Finsfan1984
04-02-2007, 05:13 PM
I know you didnt ask me, but, I prefer Quinn over Russell, and i always have favored him over Russell. If we dont get Quinn, I would love to get Stanton in the 2nd.

Boomer
04-02-2007, 05:14 PM
True. I think there is a very good chance that either Quinn or Russell will fall to us. Look what happened to Lineart last year.

Boomer, who would you choose between the two?

No decision.

Quinn.

Finsfan1984
04-02-2007, 05:17 PM
BOOM had Quinn rated 3rd, and I think he had Russell rated at like # 13 on his top 15 draft players.

miami234ever
04-02-2007, 05:18 PM
No decision.

Quinn.

So Boom, do you think there's a legite chance Brady falls to us? Who would you have Detroit taking besides Quinn?

trate121hb
04-02-2007, 05:23 PM
i think we have a shot at landing quinn at 9 but its not a likely scenaio we will have to trade up to nab him

Boomer
04-02-2007, 05:51 PM
So Boom, do you think there's a legite chance Brady falls to us? Who would you have Detroit taking besides Quinn?


I think it's unlikely that he falls.

Detroit could take Thomas, Peterson, CJ, Gaines Adams.

Captain Lou
04-02-2007, 06:09 PM
[quote=Trowa;1061941075]This is just some things I've been thinking about. Not saying any of this is going to actually happen, just saying that if it did it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

First let us assume that JeMarcus Russel is valued over Brady Quinn on team's draft boards. If Oakland signs David Carr as they're trying to do they're going to pick Calvin Johnson at #1. That blows up most any trade possibility Detroit has because I feel most teams are trying to get #2 for Calvin Johnson. The question here is, do the Lions take a QB with Jon Kitna on the team? I don't think they do. I think they go with Joe Thomas to try and invigorate that offense that features Roy Williams and Kevin Jones.


You really can't believe that John Kitna is 34 years old. He's not the future. If I were Detriot I would take Quinn. Additionally, there is no way they go receiver 1st rd 4 years in a row.

TXFinFan
04-02-2007, 06:13 PM
No decision.

Quinn.

So if Quinn is gone, and Russell falls to us, do we take him?

Boomer
04-02-2007, 06:20 PM
So if Quinn is gone, and Russell falls to us, do we take him?

Not sure we do. I don't think he has the ability to run Cam's system.

TXFinFan
04-02-2007, 06:23 PM
Not sure we do. I don't think he has the ability to run Cam's system.

Thanks Boomer! In your opinion, who is the most probable option for us if we stay at #9?

Trowa
04-02-2007, 06:31 PM
[quote=Trowa;1061941075]This is just some things I've been thinking about. Not saying any of this is going to actually happen, just saying that if it did it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

First let us assume that JeMarcus Russel is valued over Brady Quinn on team's draft boards. If Oakland signs David Carr as they're trying to do they're going to pick Calvin Johnson at #1. That blows up most any trade possibility Detroit has because I feel most teams are trying to get #2 for Calvin Johnson. The question here is, do the Lions take a QB with Jon Kitna on the team? I don't think they do. I think they go with Joe Thomas to try and invigorate that offense that features Roy Williams and Kevin Jones.


You really can't believe that John Kitna is 34 years old. He's not the future. If I were Detriot I would take Quinn. Additionally, there is no way they go receiver 1st rd 4 years in a row.

They drafted Ernie Sims 1st round last year.

Captain Lou
04-02-2007, 06:45 PM
[quote=Captain Lou;1061941350]

They drafted Ernie Sims 1st round last year.

4 of 5 years....still that's rediculous. You guys are building dream scenarios for Quinn to fall to us. If he is nearly as good as some people think he is no one will pass on him who needs a qb. The Lions need a qb.

TexanPhinatic
04-02-2007, 07:52 PM
Our only hope may be that Matt Millen is a complete moron. Come on Matt, help us out here!!

finfan54
04-02-2007, 07:55 PM
Not sure we do. I don't think he has the ability to run Cam's system.

cmon boom, go ahead, say it. Hes black and you know, not quite good upstairs......

finfan54
04-02-2007, 07:58 PM
And as if Cams system is difficult or something. Its run with a FB for crying out loud.

mia4ever
04-02-2007, 08:08 PM
[quote=Trowa;1061941406]

4 of 5 years....still that's rediculous. You guys are building dream scenarios for Quinn to fall to us. If he is nearly as good as some people think he is no one will pass on him who needs a qb. The Lions need a qb.

thk you captain

Quinn and Russel are overated

mia4ever
04-02-2007, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Boomer
Not sure we do. I don't think he has the ability to run Cam's system.

explain yourself Boomer

J-REMEDY
04-02-2007, 08:15 PM
i think theres still a chance we could get him if hes around at 6 we need to trade up for him

Fingers
04-02-2007, 08:16 PM
Be aware that Adrian Peterson might go at 3, 4 or 5.

I don't think Russell gets past Cleveland. If Johnson goes first, Miami must strongly consider moving up to Tampa, Washington or Minnesota's spot to nab Quinn.

Elliott 1
04-02-2007, 09:45 PM
This is just some things I've been thinking about. Not saying any of this is going to actually happen, just saying that if it did it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

First let us assume that JeMarcus Russel is valued over Brady Quinn on team's draft boards. If Oakland signs David Carr as they're trying to do they're going to pick Calvin Johnson at #1. That blows up most any trade possibility Detroit has because I feel most teams are trying to get #2 for Calvin Johnson. The question here is, do the Lions take a QB with Jon Kitna on the team? I don't think they do. I think they go with Joe Thomas to try and invigorate that offense that features Roy Williams and Kevin Jones.

Cleveland at #3 I think is 100% looking at Adrian Peterson. Cleveland is looking at Trent Green and if they acquire him I strongly doubt that they draft a QB in the first round.

Tampa Bay has an interesting spot. If JeMarcus Russel has fallen this far do they nab him here? Chris Simms future is in question and Jeff Garcia isn't the long term answer there.

Washington/Chicago will most likely not be looking at QB. Arizona has Matt Leinart. Minnesota could pose a problem. If they feel Tarvaris Jackson isn't the answer they could be looking at Quinn/Russel. But the rumors I've been hearing have Drew Bledsoe going to the Vikings which tells me that they want to give Jackson a chance.

Atlanta has Vick and wont be after a QB in the first round. So that leaves Miami sitting at #9 with the possibility of Quinn/Russel dropping to us. If Oakland gets Carr and Cleveland gets Green I think we only have to worry about Detroit and Minny in front of us unless someone jumps up in the draft to take a QB. But looking at the teams in the NFL there aren't that many outside of the top 10 that have a pressing need at QB.

Like I said already, this is all my opinion. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm not saying it's not. I'm just throwing it out there as a scenario where we could get Brady Quinn if the Fins decide he's our guy. But I would like to know just how feasable you guys think this is.

Do you realize how much you just wrote to get to your hypothetical slide scenario. Anything is possible but yu'all got way too much hope for this thing.

I see all these mocks with Quinn going at 9 and it's pathetic. There are going to be a lot of disappointed Dolphans on draft day.

And if this miracle happens it doesn't mean he is the next Roethlesberger, he could be the next Harrington.

Trading down would help our team more right now, even if we didn't get what the chart says.

BlueFin
04-02-2007, 09:51 PM
cmon boom, go ahead, say it. Hes black and you know, not quite good upstairs......

He can speak for himself, but thats not what he said.

I perceived him saying that Russell couldn't run Cam's offense the same way Joey Harrington couldn't successfully run it.

AtomX666
04-02-2007, 10:08 PM
I am not completely sold on Quinn either but I would like to take a chance at 9.But only at 9,no trading up.We all have are dream scenarios of the draft that probably wont happen.My dream is Peterson falling to 9 and trading down.There is a random chance he could fall.I think he is 1 of the megastuds of the draft.More of a sure thing than Quinn or Russell.If he fell to 9(unlikely but possible)I gotta believe we could get Buffalo and GB to duke it out and trade up.M Lynch and the other guys are good but AP.If he falls,we gotta trade down.

JWA
04-03-2007, 12:41 AM
I am a big Brady Quinn fan and I think he will do well in the NFL. I have reviewed you scenerio and feel that if the teams ahead of us all draft to fill there biggest need and Oakland / Cleveland sign free agent QB's, your dream may come true. However, it only takes one team ahead of us to draft best player available and it's goodbye Brady.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 05:37 AM
Thanks Boomer! In your opinion, who is the most probable option for us if we stay at #9?


Carriker, Brown, Staley, Hall, Houston, Revis, Okoye, Willis, Ginn Jr., Meacham, Olsen, Landry, Nelson.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 06:13 AM
cmon boom, go ahead, say it. Hes black and you know, not quite good upstairs......


So now I'm a racist?

Jesus.....grow up.


For those of you actually interested in football and not traipsing round the forums accusing me of racism, Cam runs a sort of *******ised version of the Zampese/Coryell system.

That system requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players hands. It also requires the QB to be able to quickly pick one of as many as 5 receivers to throw to, much quicker than previously used systems. Often, the quarterback cannot think about the play, but instead reacts instinctively. Often he has to put the ball into a gap where no-one is when he releases it, but has to trust that his WR or his back will be there as it's all part of the system.

Russell isn't that QB. He's not a quick twitch, timing QB. He's more of a 5, 7 step drop gunslinger. Russell has a tendency to hold the ball too long and his skill set just isn't suited to the Cameron system. Look at the guys that ran it recently - Brees and Rivers - you're not going to confuse them as gunslinging passers. The biggest question for the Raiders is that they have a pure West Coast offensive co-ordinator in Gregg Knapp, with a head coach in Lane Kiffin who has stated that they will create a vertical passing game should they go in Russell's direction.

Brady Quinn on the other hand, can run the west coast offense, as he did in his first two years in South Bend, or the modified Erhardt - Perkins system which Charlie Weis runs, which has a number of similarities to Cam's system. Jimbo Fisher's offense at LSU was a down the field attack to utilise the ability of Russell and to get theball into the hands of his three best players, Dwayne Bowe, Buster Davis and Early Doucet.

So quit with the racism stuff and stop being such a woman.

NoblePhin
04-03-2007, 06:38 AM
So quit with the racism stuff and stop being such a woman.

sexist :wink:

jp boom ur great to have here

jim1
04-03-2007, 06:39 AM
[quote=Trowa;1061941406]

4 of 5 years....still that's rediculous. You guys are building dream scenarios for Quinn to fall to us. If he is nearly as good as some people think he is no one will pass on him who needs a qb. The Lions need a qb.

Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, Mike Williams- who is the Lions 4th #1 draft pick WR in the last 5 years who I am missing? And why do I give a crap at 6:30 in the morning? Ah, life's sweet mysteries.

finfan54
04-03-2007, 06:54 AM
He can speak for himself, but thats not what he said.

I perceived him saying that Russell couldn't run Cam's offense the same way Joey Harrington couldn't successfully run it.


Boomer has been implying that Russell is not all that upstairs and is lazy according to reports, that is why he has him at 15 on his top 15. Where this crap comes from is beyond any reality. The dude showed the nation what he is capable of and somehow, right before the draft he is lazy and cant think very well.

Its crap! Its just like Vince Young and the wonderlic. No consideration what he actually did in college and choosing favorites based on outward appearances.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 06:59 AM
sexist :wink:

jp boom ur great to have here


LOL.

Very good. :D

finfan54
04-03-2007, 07:12 AM
So now I'm a racist?

Jesus.....grow up.


For those of you actually interested in football and not traipsing round the forums accusing me of racism, Cam runs a sort of *******ised version of the Zampese/Coryell system.

That system requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players hands. It also requires the QB to be able to quickly pick one of as many as 5 receivers to throw to, much quicker than previously used systems. Often, the quarterback cannot think about the play, but instead reacts instinctively. Often he has to put the ball into a gap where no-one is when he releases it, but has to trust that his WR or his back will be there as it's all part of the system.

Russell isn't that QB. He's not a quick twitch, timing QB. He's more of a 5, 7 step drop gunslinger. Russell has a tendency to hold the ball too long and his skill set just isn't suited to the Cameron system. Look at the guys that ran it recently - Brees and Rivers - you're not going to confuse them as gunslinging passers. The biggest question for the Raiders is that they have a pure West Coast offensive co-ordinator in Gregg Knapp, with a head coach in Lane Kiffin who has stated that they will create a vertical passing game should they go in Russell's direction.

Brady Quinn on the other hand, can run the west coast offense, as he did in his first two years in South Bend, or the modified Erhardt - Perkins system which Charlie Weis runs, which has a number of similarities to Cam's system. Jimbo Fisher's offense at LSU was a down the field attack to utilise the ability of Russell and to get theball into the hands of his three best players, Dwayne Bowe, Buster Davis and Early Doucet.

So quit with the racism stuff and stop being such a woman.


First off, I am grown up and can realize a bias when its obvious for obvious reasons. White WR's are not as good as black recievers, that is a real perception that is out there for many many people.

Secondly, Mike Mayock clearly showed why Russell is accurate and pinpoints his throws right between three defenders. Mayock is always sure to point out faults as well, so his view is objective and with conviction. To suggest that Russell is somehow more flawed than Quinn suggests to me that opinions are not really based on anything you saw, but stuff that was made up along the way after it was shown time and time again why the guy is rated this high.

If Russell was there at 9, and Mueller did not take him, and Cam Cameron said it was because he didnt think he could run his offense, I would just forget about this guy as a head coach, and expect us to lose more based on stupid decisions when they are squarely put in your lap.

I never called you a racist, I simply pointed out biases based on crap that gets spread around ala Vince Young last year. So go ahead and deny the bias based on outward appearance and rumor/innuendo, thats not my problem. I truly believe that alot of people think this way and are not open minded about stuff like this.

And Now Cams offense is a West Coast offense? And Russell cant do the two step? cmon boomer, you cannot be serious. This is like saying Vince Young cant run the offense behind center. That was also rediculous and was proven wrong again.


I would like you to enlighten us all on "Cams West Coast Offense" Boomer, cus this is the first I have heard of this since Cameron has been here. Not one article on this whatsoever! You would think that we would be enlightened on this fact somewhere, somehow from all the media we have these days and information available to us.


Now suddenly, we run a west coast offense. I'll remember that Boomer, because I will be looking for this "west coast offense" moniker, because that changes a whole lot more than just the QB position my friend. And If we are looking for more speed at WR, then how does that fit the west coast dink and dunk? Based on you "west coast" theory here, we should be looking for DWayne Bowe instead of Ted Ginn, who no doubtedly would be going long early and often. Doesnt jive to me Boomer.

But I will surely be looking for this West coast offense laddy.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 07:12 AM
Boomer has been implying that Russell is not all that upstairs and is lazy according to reports, that is why he has him at 15 on his top 15. Where this crap comes from is beyond any reality. The dude showed the nation what he is capable of and somehow, right before the draft he is lazy and cant think very well.

Its crap! Its just like Vince Young and the wonderlic. No consideration what he actually did in college and choosing favorites based on outward appearances.


You really are a pretty pathetic individual.

Yet again, you imply that I am racist, by inferring that I dislike Russell because he's black. I'm buggered as a Dolphin fan because last time I looked, we had about 40 black blokes on the roster.

That's OK though, because I only cheer when the whitey's have the ball anyway. When the darkies have it, I hope that they fumble or that it gets picked off. I was disappointed when Harvey Greene, when asking fans for their input on uniform changes, went against my idea for a new uni:

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/04/kkkrobel-1.jpg

If I was racist, how come there are only 3 white guys in my top 15? How come the top two are black?

Do you realise how stupid you sound about now? My basis for putting Russell where I did is done on football decisions alone. You sit there and judge and yet freely admit you don't even watch these people play, you just copy what other people say and think. The comments about his work ethic and his rather lazy mentality come from scouts and coaches who have studied him and worked him out and who have interviewed him.

jim1
04-03-2007, 07:12 AM
Boomer has been implying that Russell is not all that upstairs and is lazy according to reports, that is why he has him at 15 on his top 15. Where this crap comes from is beyond any reality. The dude showed the nation what he is capable of and somehow, right before the draft he is lazy and cant think very well.

Its crap! Its just like Vince Young and the wonderlic. No consideration what he actually did in college and choosing favorites based on outward appearances.

Right before the draft? I've been hearing this for some time. Anyway, read the post in question- he's probably not a good fit for our system. Maybe the "crap" part is you hindering a free flow of ideas with a charge of racism. I've heard that England doesn't have to deal with issues like this nearly as much as we do, thank God for them. All this guy does is bring information and intellect to the table. Leave him alone.

finfan54
04-03-2007, 07:22 AM
You really are a pretty pathetic individual.

Yet again, you imply that I am racist, by inferring that I dislike Russell because he's black. I'm buggered as a Dolphin fan because last time I looked, we had about 40 black blokes on the roster.

That's OK though, because I only cheer when the whitey's have the ball anyway. When the darkies have it, I hope that they fumble or that it gets picked off. I was disappointed when Harvey Greene, when asking fans for their input on uniform changes, went against my idea for a new uni:

http://americanhistory.si.edu/brown/history/1-segregated/images/kkk-robe-l.jpg

If I was racist, how come there are only 3 white guys in my top 15? How come the top two are black?

Do you realise how stupid you sound about now? My basis for putting Russell where I did is done on football decisions alone. You sit there and judge and yet freely admit you don't even watch these people play, you just copy what other people say and think. The comments about his work ethic and his rather lazy mentality come from scouts and coaches who have studied him and worked him out and who have interviewed him.


Read above, I was pretty clear about what i said.

BlueFin
04-03-2007, 07:22 AM
Boomer has been implying that Russell is not all that upstairs and is lazy according to reports, that is why he has him at 15 on his top 15. Where this crap comes from is beyond any reality. The dude showed the nation what he is capable of and somehow, right before the draft he is lazy and cant think very well.

Its crap! Its just like Vince Young and the wonderlic. No consideration what he actually did in college and choosing favorites based on outward appearances.

I believe I read he was out of shape at his recent workout, correct me if I'm wrong, here is a just a quick article I found that mentions Russells weight issues:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/10102138

Quarterback is a very cerebral position, many a quarterback of all colors have lacked what it takes to be long term successful at this level, If the man has an opinion about a certain player and his mental abilities it is BS for you to try to label him a racist, I'm sure he's probably watched more film on Russell than you or I.

If you really think college success as a quarterback assures you of success at the NFL level you haven't been paying enough attention.

finfan54
04-03-2007, 07:24 AM
Right before the draft? I've been hearing this for some time. Anyway, read the post in question- he's probably not a good fit for our system. Maybe the "crap" part is you hindering a free flow of ideas with a charge of racism. I've heard that England doesn't have to deal with issues like this nearly as much as we do, thank God for them. All this guy does is bring information and intellect to the table. Leave him alone.



Please show me where cam cameron runs a west coast offense and I will apologize for my "racism" that i never ever claimed to call boomer, but rather a hidden bias based on outward appearance. Take it as you want, but every year we hear crap about black QB's and it is a real issue. To pretend it is not is ludicrous because the issue is brought up every year. Last year it was vince Young.

finfan54
04-03-2007, 07:28 AM
I believe I read he was out of shape at his recent workout, correct me if I'm wrong, here is a just a quick article I found that mentions Russells weight issues:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/10102138

Quarterback is a very cerebrial position, many a quarterback of all colors have lacked what it takes to be long term successful at this level, If the man has an opinion about a certain player and his mental abilities it is BS for you to try to label him a racist, I'm sure he's probably watched more film on Russell than you or I.

If you really think college success as a quarterback assures you of success at the NFL level you haven't been paying enough attention.


I never once called boomer a racist. He simply is following reports of Russell's " laziness". Its crap that got spread around and continues to be spread by boomer whom people hold in high regard around here. This stuff about Russell being lazy implies alot about the QB positon, yet the guy has lead his team since he was a sophomore and somehow now, he is not that good as advertised and suddenly, Quinn is all world? No, it doesnt jive to me. And this west coast offense thing is something to behold to me. So keep changing the subject back to racism to deflect the real points made by myself.


oh and, "no one denies that Russell can make all the throws"

Except if your Boomer.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 07:38 AM
First off, I am grown up

That I doubt.


And can realize a bias when its obvious for obvious reasons. White WR's are not as good as black recievers, that is a real perception that is out there for many many people.

So you are actually continuing to infer that I'm a racist? Hilarious. Wait, let me put Anthony Gonzalez at the top of my ratings and drop Calvin Johnson. Don't want to upset anymore whitey's.


Secondly, Mike Mayock clearly showed why Russell is accurate and pinpoints his throws right between three defenders. Mayock is always sure to point out faults as well, so his view is objective and with conviction. To suggest that Russell is somehow more flawed than Quinn suggests to me that opinions are not really based on anything you saw, but stuff that was made up along the way after it was shown time and time again why the guy is rated this high.

Ah well, if Mike Mayock said it, then that makes it alright then. Why didn't you tell me this before and I would have changed my opinion accordingly? My view isn't objective and lacks conviction? On what basis? I have no ties to anyone, any team, etc. But don't take my word for it......I've only seen Russell play 10 or so times. Take the word of Scott Wright:

"Is relatively raw as a passer and will need to work on his technique and throwing mechanics...Has made great strides in the accuracy department but there is still room for improvement...Numbers were inflated by the system he played in...Timed speed is solid but not special...High bust factor...Does he love the game and is he commited to working to be the best he can be"

Or the brilliant Frank Cooney:

"Tends to get a bit impatient in the pocket and showed too much confidence in his arm strength, firing the ball right into coverage. Can hold the ball too long, waiting for his targets to get open, increasing the chance for a sack or fumble. Must take some zip off of his short-area tosses"

So that's a Zampese QB is it? Or what about a scout at the Combine?:

"I just think reading coverages will be extremely difficult for him. He'll throw a lot of picks and make a lot of bad decisions. If you try to confuse him with coverages, you can do that."

Russell was vaulted into top spot off the back of one year and essentially one game. I remember Tony Pauline's reaction to him being graded that high coming off the Sugar Bowl win. And it wasn't good.

Or what about Pete Prisco, he may dislike the Dolphins, but he's nailed on right:

" just don't see the pinpoint passing, the great timing of the throws or his feel for the pocket. He's careless with the ball, at times, and he struggled against the better college defenses. Can he develop into a quality NFL quarterback? You bet. Would I take him with the first overall pick? No way.

As of now, I have him rated at the 20th-best player. That's much lower than anybody else doing these lists, but during the 2006 season you would have been hard pressed to find a scout or personnel director who had him rated as high as they do now."


If Russell was there at 9, and Mueller did not take him, and Cam Cameron said it was because he didnt think he could run his offense, I would just forget about this guy as a head coach, and expect us to lose more based on stupid decisions when they are squarely put in your lap.

So you would advocate drafting a player who didn't fit a specific system, just because you liked him? I suppose you want to draft Daymeion Hughes and you were all for bringing Jamar Fletcher in as well.


I never called you a racist, I simply pointed out biases based on crap that gets spread around ala Vince Young last year. So go ahead and deny the bias based on outward appearance and rumor/innuendo, thats not my problem. I truly believe that alot of people think this way and are not open minded about stuff like this.

You implied that I was marking Russell down because he was black. There's nothing left to say.


And Now Cams offense is a West Coast offense? And Russell cant do the two step? cmon boomer, you cannot be serious. This is like saying Vince Young cant run the offense behind center. That was also rediculous and was proven wrong again. I would like you to enlighten us all on "Cams West Coast Offense" Boomer, cus this is the first I have heard of this since Cameron has been here. Not one article on this whatsoever! You would think that we would be enlightened on this fact somewhere, somehow from all the media we have these days and information available to us. Now suddenly, we run a west coast offense. I'll remember that Boomer, because I will be looking for this "west coast offense" moniker, because that changes a whole lot more than just the QB position my friend. And If we are looking for more speed at WR, then how does that fit the west coast dink and dunk? Based on you "west coast" theory here, we should be looking for DWayne Bowe instead of Ted Ginn, who no doubtedly would be going long early and often. Doesnt jive to me Boomer.

But I will surely be looking for this West coast offense laddy.

Would LOVE for you to point out where I said that we ran a West Coast offense. LOVE it. What I said - doesn't it get boring repeating yourself to people too foolish to understand the first time? - that Cameron runs a hybrid version of the Zampese/Coryell offense. It has elements of the Erhardt-Perkins system used by the Patriots in that it has a heavy run philosophy, but nowhere did I say or imply that we ran a west coast offense. Our offense features a power running game, but will use short, quick, accurate passing, timing routes, with the ability to stretch the field vertically with the passing game and its numbered pass routes. Hence the Ted Ginn interest.

Why would you need an article to show you what offense Cameron runs? Surely you must have seen the Chargers the past 5 years? Use your eyes man. You're just a sheep, following the crowd, waiting for others to give you your opinion. Blue Fin and I used to disagree around the forums, but when we DID disagree, I knew that I had to bring my A-Game to match his responses, because he knows his stuff as well as anyone on these forums. He watches, he understands, he appreciates. He doesn't pilfer other people's opinion. There was a time when we didn't really get on, but I had a hell of a lot of respect for him. Still do.

But you actually don't know fundamentally what you're talking about.

So stick to racist jibes and copying other people's thoughts and let the rest of us get on with the draft business.

jim1
04-03-2007, 07:38 AM
Please show me where cam cameron runs a west coast offense and I will apologize for my "racism" that i never ever claimed to call boomer, but rather a hidden bias based on outward appearance. Take it as you want, but every year we hear crap about black QB's and it is a real issue. To pretend it is not is ludicrous because the issue is brought up every year. Last year it was vince Young.

Vince Young had a pathetic Wonderlic score. Jim Druckenmiller, a white QB, was dumb as a brick. So what? Shall we convene a Grand Jury to investigate? You charged racism before this "West coast offense" info was posted, so what's your point? You're boring. I'm bored. I'd rather go read some mock drafts somewhere. Even crappy ones. This stuff is supposed to be fun. Thanks for ruining it today.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 07:40 AM
Read above, I was pretty clear about what i said.


Great job of avoiding the answers when you get out-thought.

But I suppose it takes you time to Google your answers.

Agent51
04-03-2007, 07:41 AM
Please show me where cam cameron runs a west coast offense and I will apologize for my "racism" that i never ever claimed to call boomer, but rather a hidden bias based on outward appearance. Take it as you want, but every year we hear crap about black QB's and it is a real issue. To pretend it is not is ludicrous because the issue is brought up every year. Last year it was vince Young.

Well would you apologize to Boomer if I showed you where he NEVER SAID we run a West Coast offense? If you read the post correctly, he says OAKLAND runs a West Coast offense, which is why Russell may not be a good fit IN OAKLAND. He does NOT say we run a West Coast offense:


...For those of you actually interested in football and not traipsing round the forums accusing me of racism, Cam runs a sort of *******ised version of the Zampese/Coryell system.

That system requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players hands. It also requires the QB to be able to quickly pick one of as many as 5 receivers to throw to, much quicker than previously used systems. Often, the quarterback cannot think about the play, but instead reacts instinctively. Often he has to put the ball into a gap where no-one is when he releases it, but has to trust that his WR or his back will be there as it's all part of the system.

Russell isn't that QB. He's not a quick twitch, timing QB. He's more of a 5, 7 step drop gunslinger. Russell has a tendency to hold the ball too long and his skill set just isn't suited to the Cameron system. Look at the guys that ran it recently - Brees and Rivers - you're not going to confuse them as gunslinging passers. The biggest question for the Raiders is that they have a pure West Coast offensive co-ordinator in Gregg Knapp, with a head coach in Lane Kiffin who has stated that they will create a vertical passing game should they go in Russell's direction.

Brady Quinn on the other hand, can run the west coast offense, as he did in his first two years in South Bend, or the modified Erhardt - Perkins system which Charlie Weis runs, which has a number of similarities to Cam's system. Jimbo Fisher's offense at LSU was a down the field attack to utilise the ability of Russell and to get theball into the hands of his three best players, Dwayne Bowe, Buster Davis and Early Doucet....

So as you can CLEARLY see, he says OAKLAND runs a West Coast offense, which Russell would struggle in, and he says Quinn CAN run a West Coast offense because he did in his first 2 years at Notre Dame but he can ALSO run the "modified Erhardt-Perkins system", which Charlie Weis runs, WHICH IS SIMILAR TO CAM'S. Now, show me in there where Boomer say CAM runs a WEST COAST offense :confused:

Therefore, you should apologize to Boomer period for putting words in his mouth and bashing him in like 4 posts for being stupid and saying we run the West Coast offense, which he clearly never did.

*EDIT* Boomer already beat me to defending his NON-saying that we run a West Coast offense. Must've been typing his post while I was mine. Either way:

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

Boomer
04-03-2007, 07:44 AM
Anyway, back to the real stuff......fascinating comment out of Tampa from Jon Gruden saying how he wants to pair Peterson and Cadillac.

Still that "first rule of draft club is don't believe a word from January to May" sits fresh in my mind, but I've heard elsewhere that Tampa are interested, as are Arizona and that would shake up that first round.

Agent51
04-03-2007, 07:59 AM
Anyway, back to the real stuff......fascinating comment out of Tampa from Jon Gruden saying how he wants to pair Peterson and Cadillac.

Still that "first rule of draft club is don't believe a word from January to May" sits fresh in my mind, but I've heard elsewhere that Tampa are interested, as are Arizona and that would shake up that first round.

Adrian Peterson and Caddy would be one MEAN backfield, but I fail to see how that would play out. Both of those backs are stars, worthy of being the feature back, not to mention both would be top 5 picks (hypothetically speaking as if TB takes Peterson). So you'd have 2 top 5, highly paid RBs on your team that were drafted 2 years apart. That seems like it is BEGGING for trouble.

For one, I would be EXTREMELY mad if I were a Bucs fan, but more importantly, I just don't see how that would work for the two, one would get screwed, and it would probably be Caddy.

I would fear that backfield (and thank god every day that we arent in the same CONFERENCE as them, nevermind division, :lol:) but I just don't see it happening. Caddy is doing a great job on his own, and that would just create a volotile sitiuation.

Arizona could be interesting though. That would work for them, as Edge is getting old and wasn't even close to his Indy form last year (I don't think ALL of it was the line's fault, but that's just my opinion).

Geforce
04-03-2007, 08:06 AM
Adrian Peterson and Caddy would be one MEAN backfield, but I fail to see how that would play out. Both of those backs are stars, worthy of being the feature back, not to mention both would be top 5 picks (hypothetically speaking as if TB takes Peterson). So you'd have 2 top 5, highly paid RBs on your team that were drafted 2 years apart. That seems like it is BEGGING for trouble.

For one, I would be EXTREMELY mad if I were a Bucs fan, but more importantly, I just don't see how that would work for the two, one would get screwed, and it would probably be Caddy.

I would fear that backfield (and thank god every day that we arent in the same CONFERENCE as them, nevermind division, :lol:) but I just don't see it happening. Caddy is doing a great job on his own, and that would just create a volotile sitiuation.

Arizona could be interesting though. That would work for them, as Edge is getting old and wasn't even close to his Indy form last year (I don't think ALL of it was the line's fault, but that's just my opinion).

I don't see Cadillac Williams having a problem sharing carries with anyone. He did it at Auburn with Ronnie Brown and did it with Michael Pittman in Tampa Bay.

Even if Tampa Bay drafted Peterson, their OL needs to be more consistent or neither back will produce much.

This could just be more pre-draft wranglings.

Agent51
04-03-2007, 08:09 AM
I don't see Cadillac Williams having a problem sharing carries with anyone. He did it at Auburn with Ronnie Brown and did it with Michael Pittman in Tampa Bay.

Even if Tampa Bay drafted Peterson, their OL needs to be more consistent or neither back will produce much.

This could just be more pre-draft wranglings.

True, he did share carries, I completely forgot about that. Still though, two top 5 RBs in three years? I would be INSANELY mad as a Bucs fan. I could see picking up a back in a later round with that intention, but given the fact that they already have an excellent RB it just seems idiotic (or should I say Matt Millen-ish) to take another at #4.

I am thinking (actually, I'm all but garunteeing) this is just more of the usual pre-draft manipulation to entice a trade-up as a backup plan in case Calvin Johnson is taken in the top 3.

Geforce
04-03-2007, 08:16 AM
True, he did share carries, I completely forgot about that. Still though, two top 5 RBs in three years? I would be INSANELY mad as a Bucs fan. I could see picking up a back in a later round with that intention, but given the fact that they already have an excellent RB it just seems idiotic (or should I say Matt Millen-ish) to take another at #4.

I am thinking (actually, I'm all but garunteeing) this is just more of the usual pre-draft manipulation to entice a trade-up as a backup plan in case Calvin Johnson is taken in the top 3.

I agree because Gruden really likes Okoye. I guess he envisions another Warren Sapp type player for their defensive scheme.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 08:24 AM
If Johnson is gone and Quinn isn't, then Tampa could quite possibly move to 9 and get Okoye.

jim1
04-03-2007, 08:24 AM
True, he did share carries, I completely forgot about that. Still though, two top 5 RBs in three years? I would be INSANELY mad as a Bucs fan. I could see picking up a back in a later round with that intention, but given the fact that they already have an excellent RB it just seems idiotic (or should I say Matt Millen-ish) to take another at #4.

I am thinking (actually, I'm all but garunteeing) this is just more of the usual pre-draft manipulation to entice a trade-up as a backup plan in case Calvin Johnson is taken in the top 3.

Didn't Cadillac start getting worn down last year? Everyone focused on Ronnie Brown's ability to carry the full load, but he's a much bigger boy than Cadillac. "Insanely mad"? Nah- Quinn, Johnson, Thomas, Peterson- they can't go wrong. Adrian Peterson is a stud- and he''d keep the Caddy on the road and out of the shop more often.

Agent51
04-03-2007, 08:29 AM
Didn't Cadillac start getting worn down last year? Everyone focused on Ronnie Brown's ability to carry the full load, but he's a much bigger boy than Cadillac. "Insanely mad"? Nah- Quinn, Johnson, Thomas, Peterson- they can't go wrong. Adrian Peterson is a stud- and he''d keep the Caddy on the road and out of the shop more often.

All true, but still, if I were a bucs fan and we went RB in the top 5 AGAIN, no matter how good a talent he is, I couldn't help but feel cheated. Obviously when he stepped on the field it would probably make me forget my anger, but still. It would be like us passing on a QB (brees) and taking Jamar Fletcher that year when we already had 3 Pro Bowl DBs on the team, only it would be worse because they would do it with such a high pick.

All 4 of the players you mentioned would definately be good for them, but the other three would be much better for them than Peterson. Actually the other 2, because Quinn isn't a huge need either, although, like Adrian, he wouldn't be a BAD choice.

Geforce
04-03-2007, 08:40 AM
Didn't Cadillac start getting worn down last year? Everyone focused on Ronnie Brown's ability to carry the full load, but he's a much bigger boy than Cadillac. "Insanely mad"? Nah- Quinn, Johnson, Thomas, Peterson- they can't go wrong. Adrian Peterson is a stud- and he''d keep the Caddy on the road and out of the shop more often.

Cadillac wore down his rookie year. Last year he just couldn't stay healthy as he was bothered by injuries all year.

Geforce
04-03-2007, 08:46 AM
If Johnson is gone and Quinn isn't, then Tampa could quite possibly move to 9 and get Okoye.

Yep that would benefit both teams.

If teams follow the draft value chart at NFL.com, then it would take swapping 1st round picks and Tampa Bay would get the #40 pick and we get their 5th round pick or something like that.

Agent51
04-03-2007, 08:53 AM
Yep that would benefit both teams.

If teams follow the draft value chart at NFL.com, then it would take swapping 1st round picks and Tampa Bay would get the #40 pick and we get their 5th round pick or something like that.

Man, I would be MORE than happy if we move up and get Quinn at #4 and all we had to give up was our first 2nd rounder AND we got a 5th rounder back out of the deal.

jim1
04-03-2007, 09:01 AM
All true, but still, if I were a bucs fan and we went RB in the top 5 AGAIN, no matter how good a talent he is, I couldn't help but feel cheated. Obviously when he stepped on the field it would probably make me forget my anger, but still. It would be like us passing on a QB (brees) and taking Jamar Fletcher that year when we already had 3 Pro Bowl DBs on the team, only it would be worse because they would do it with such a high pick.

All 4 of the players you mentioned would definately be good for them, but the other three would be much better for them than Peterson. Actually the other 2, because Quinn isn't a huge need either, although, like Adrian, he wouldn't be a BAD choice.


The Brees thing sucked. You know what really pissed me off? They had just whiffed on another undersized corner in an earlier draft, maybe the year before. Ben Kelly Colorado 3rd round. What is there to say about that- bad memories.

I somewhat agree with you re: Peterson- somewhat. I would go CJ, Quinn, Thomas. Peterson. I'm not a BPA guy, but Peterson is a flat out stud. Look at the NFL track record of Cadillac- he needs help, or he'll just get worn out. Add to that the sheer talent of AP and I wouldn't be upset if I were a Bucs fan. I'm not, by the way.

BlueFin
04-03-2007, 11:00 AM
Anyway, back to the real stuff......fascinating comment out of Tampa from Jon Gruden saying how he wants to pair Peterson and Cadillac.

Still that "first rule of draft club is don't believe a word from January to May" sits fresh in my mind, but I've heard elsewhere that Tampa are interested, as are Arizona and that would shake up that first round.

My gut tells me Gruden is now sensing that Calvin Johnson is not gonna be there at 4, and he is now fishing for a trade down. I'm not buying the reports that he might draft a QB either, it might seem odd to some but I really think Gruden's act is starting to wear a little thin in Buc town, and he won't want to go thru the growing process of a rookie QB.

But as you say, its hard to believe anything you hear this time of year, I can't remember a recent draft where the top of the draft was so up in the air.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 11:15 AM
My gut tells me Gruden is now sensing that Calvin Johnson is not gonna be there at 4, and he is now fishing for a trade down. I'm not buying the reports that he might draft a QB either, it might seem odd to some but I really think Gruden's act is starting to wear a little thin in Buc town, and he won't want to go thru the growing process of a rookie QB.

But as you say, its hard to believe anything you hear this time of year, I can't remember a recent draft where the top of the draft was so up in the air.

Me either.

He's got to be looking at Okoye to play that Sapp role. And I think, like you say, he knows that Johnson is going elsewhere. I still think the Raiders decision will come down to him and Quinn.

It's amazing isn't it, how the top of the draft is so murky. I love it!!!

BlueFin
04-03-2007, 11:30 AM
Me either.

He's got to be looking at Okoye to play that Sapp role. And I think, like you say, he knows that Johnson is going elsewhere. I still think the Raiders decision will come down to him and Quinn.

It's amazing isn't it, how the top of the draft is so murky. I love it!!!

Yes, so maybe Tampa is a possible trade partner for us?

Its seems Oakland is really trying hard to bring in a QB, I really think CJ is going to go number 1, he really is too good to pass on.

Boomer
04-03-2007, 04:22 PM
Maybe mate, maybe.

I see it's all gone eerily quiet with the guy who thinks I'm in the KKK because I don't have Russell as my #1 player

Agent51
04-03-2007, 04:55 PM
The Brees thing sucked. You know what really pissed me off? They had just whiffed on another undersized corner in an earlier draft, maybe the year before. Ben Kelly Colorado 3rd round. What is there to say about that- bad memories.

I somewhat agree with you re: Peterson- somewhat. I would go CJ, Quinn, Thomas. Peterson. I'm not a BPA guy, but Peterson is a flat out stud. Look at the NFL track record of Cadillac- he needs help, or he'll just get worn out. Add to that the sheer talent of AP and I wouldn't be upset if I were a Bucs fan. I'm not, by the way.

The brees thing might be my worst draft memory EVER.

As far as Peterson, he is just as injury prone as Caddy, in fact his have been more serious, so that wouldnt comfort me. Peterson had a major injury all 3 years (he didn't sit out freshman year, but he has a shoulder injury all year), and that was only college. What happens when he starts taking NFL hits? If I were the Bucs I would probably go CJ, Thomas, Peterson, Quinn (assuming by some miracle all 4 were still there at their pick). CJ is their target, and WR is a big need They also need OL help. The Peterson and Caddy split makes sense since they are both injury risks, but it doesn't make more sense than Thomas for them IMO. They already have a great back (durability issues aside) and they need the OL help, so you don't pass up a top OL talent to fill your depth at another position. A RB could be found to assist Caddy in the later rounds if they really want to. As far as Quinn for them, you never know, but they just resigned Simms, who had a breakout year til the spleen thing, plus they got the new "Backup QB star" in Garcia, so they are set for awhile. They need results now, and Quinn won't give them to 'em.