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Green Phin
04-10-2007, 03:26 PM
Pro Football Weekly says some NFL evaluators consider Levi Brown better than Joe Thomas at OT. It is interesting what pass rushers who played against both said about them.

I don't agree, but again I am no expert. What do you think?

http://nflblogs.profootballweekly.com/NFLdraft/

Motion
04-10-2007, 03:27 PM
I've also heard some teams have Staley above Brown. Hard to believe what is truly legit at this point, alot of smokescreens out there.

Finsfan1984
04-10-2007, 03:31 PM
Pro Football Weekly says some NFL evaluators consider Levi Brown better than Joe Thomas at OT. It is interesting what pass rushers who played against both said about them.

I don't agree, but again I am no expert. What do you think?

http://nflblogs.profootballweekly.com/NFLdraft/

Welcome aboard Green Phin, I dont agree with that either. Thomas is clearly the best, and im not sure that Levi is even next after Thomas. Definitely not as good as Thomas IMO!!!

WISfinfan13
04-10-2007, 03:33 PM
I've also heard some teams have Staley above Brown. Hard to believe what is truly legit at this point, alot of smokescreens out there.


Yeah i heard lately people have questioned Levi Brown's work ethic...I think that Joe Staley is going to be huge stud...He make take a couple years to be on the same level as Joe Thomas but i think itll happen...

Type in Joe Staley and the first article that comes up...read it its great...also look at some of my last few threads...I talk about Joe Staley...

Fingers
04-10-2007, 03:48 PM
Some say that Levi has a nastier streak than Thomas but that Thomas is much more fluid. To me, Levi maybe a bit of a reach at #9 but my name is not Mueller.

Finsfan1984
04-10-2007, 03:49 PM
Some say that Levi has a nastier streak than Thomas but that Thomas is much more fluid. To me, Levi maybe a bit of a reach at #9 but my name is not Mueller.
I agree, IMO Levi is a reach @ 9.

SoDakDolfan
04-10-2007, 03:58 PM
I like what I know of Levi. If (if is always the caveat when speaking of nfl prospects) if he styas healthy and anchors the left side for the next 10 years I wouldn't be at all disappointed in the pick.

Finfan53
04-10-2007, 04:57 PM
I like what I know of Levi. If (if is always the caveat when speaking of nfl prospects) if he styas healthy and anchors the left side for the next 10 years I wouldn't be at all disappointed in the pick.
Same here.... Both players will develop over the next few years, but who has the best footwork would likely be the best prospect. Penn State has always done well at developing very good offensive lineman.
Heck I'd love either of them..... I'm still dealing with the nightmares from having Wade Smith at LT...the home game against the colts in particular still stings.

JC
04-10-2007, 04:57 PM
i saw tapes on nfl network of his workout and i was impressed with his strength and footwork

Kdawg954
04-10-2007, 05:11 PM
Brown is a beast . . . and if he takes the NFL seriously . . . he will be the most dominating OT in this draft. i think he will be a Pro Bowl RT . . . but he has the stuff to be a good LT as well . . . Joe Thomas is more refined tho . . . he is a born LT and STaley has the footwork to be a stud LT . . . Brown IMO can't come in and dominate at LT . . . guys like Freeney and JT will school him for years if he doesn't receive the right coaching.

Phineas64
04-10-2007, 06:14 PM
I'd say if anyone can get him the right coaching, it's Hudson Houck.

Hoot {MWB}
04-10-2007, 06:31 PM
I have really been wanting to upgrade our secondary with our 1st pick. Lately, I've been looking into what Levi Brown has to offer. I watched 2 videos...one of him...and one of Ryan Kalil (who I think will be a guranteed starter and extremely likely Pro Bowler in the next few years). Here are the vids:

Levi Brown:
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=a53ccd2f-4352-4988-87ee-5fbf6cfa85fe&f=33&fg=rss

Ryan Kalil:
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=6f1e56db-6b45-4264-8523-5072ea1fc7a8&f=33&fg=rss

I'm sure everyone will view these videos differently, but from what I saw, Kalil was much more physical, much more aggressive, and pushed his guys a lot farther than Brown did. The scouts have said Brown at times seems to take plays off...I don't think he takes plays off...but he doesn't go at the defender every play as if his life depended on it. I'm not an Oline coach, but from the various videos I have seen...Kalil has impressed me more and more each time I watch him. His passion and desire to defeat that man across from him are remarkable. I have never seen him "take a play off".

My point, without hijacking this thread: if I was Dolphin GM...and I compared these two lineman, why on earth would I take Brown at 9 when I believe Kalil is the better lineman. Now...with that being said, initial thoughts are "whoa...he's saying take Kalil at 9". I'm not. In my honest opinion, I DO feel as if Kalil is worth a 9 pick...BUT...there may the chance of taking him with our 40th pick...and some very talented players in other positions we should consider at 9. Man..if Quinn fell to 9...and Kalil was there at 40. Our QB-Center connection with our first 2 picks would be SOLID. Alas, daydreams are sweet.

The LT position is certainly weak in this draft. And maybe I just haven't seen Brown at his best (never watched an actual Penn St. game with him in it, just highlight reels)...I just don't know if he's worth that 9. If someone has some footage/link of him kicking some tail...please show us. Because I would certainly love for him to be a monster LT.

miamiron
04-10-2007, 06:32 PM
Nice review on Brown kinda of makes you think about all the interest in
him of late.I saw those NFL network tapes also and he dominated...repeat dominated everyone except Spencer on a one -on one drill where Spencer almost turned the corner on him...As for his work ethic I have heard nothing of him being a slacker or lazy...I doubt very much he would have been the Captian of Penn if he didn't lead by example

finfan54
04-10-2007, 09:59 PM
Levi Brown has a better punch and more power than Joe Thomas.

Joe Thomas is the technician and has great footwork. Doesnt mean he will be great when speed rushers truly test him out in the NFL as well as the power guys. Thomas is a better pass blocker but he can be beat IMO in the rushing game and a powerful DE with a bat move. Levi 328 lbs vs. 311 U figure it out.

Levi Brown is also very athletic. Those who suggest otherwise do not know what they are talking about. The guy has pulled from LT and was a lead blocker and kills people at the second level. Thomas also very good at the second level.

Fact is, Levi has more power and long arms to control the DE. But Levi is prone to make the occasional mistake. The thing I find amazing is that people assume that Joe Thomas will not make mistakes. Only one tackle in history never made a mistake. The guy from Cincy thats in the Hall.


Staley is a bit overrated IMO right now. The Giants, in desperate need for LT are now viewing him as the answere, but what I have seen of the guy is anything but impressive. He should not start right away because one, he will get beat real bad and is not very powerful in holding his blocks. He does have the prototypical size and potential. Leave it at that please. If we end up with this guy and he starts, get ready to cry.

MustangFinFan
04-10-2007, 10:46 PM
our draft would be so set if we got Levi Brown at @9...traded down to get Ben Grubbs in the late 1st round...and got a receiver like..idk, if Sidney Rice was available late 2nd. i dont care if our QB was Cleo Lemon...with THAT sorta protection, and an extra good receiver to throw to...oh yes.

Phanatical
04-10-2007, 11:36 PM
I love Brown if he's there at #9, if not, there are some LT's later in the draft that could also help us. Barbre would be a great pick in the fifth round if we had one (that's where i project him to go). Barbre is possibly the third best LT available in the draft (after Thomas and Brown). I also like the potential of Gabe Hall and have us selecting him in the sixth only b/c I don't think Barbre will slide to the sixth round.

GO PHINS~!

fishypete
04-11-2007, 12:47 AM
Levi Brown has a better punch and more power than Joe Thomas.

Joe Thomas is the technician and has great footwork. Doesnt mean he will be great when speed rushers truly test him out in the NFL as well as the power guys. Thomas is a better pass blocker but he can be beat IMO in the rushing game and a powerful DE with a bat move. Levi 328 lbs vs. 311 U figure it out.

Levi Brown is also very athletic. Those who suggest otherwise do not know what they are talking about. The guy has pulled from LT and was a lead blocker and kills people at the second level. Thomas also very good at the second level.

Fact is, Levi has more power and long arms to control the DE. But Levi is prone to make the occasional mistake. The thing I find amazing is that people assume that Joe Thomas will not make mistakes. Only one tackle in history never made a mistake. The guy from Cincy thats in the Hall.


Staley is a bit overrated IMO right now. The Giants, in desperate need for LT are now viewing him as the answere, but what I have seen of the guy is anything but impressive. He should not start right away because one, he will get beat real bad and is not very powerful in holding his blocks. He does have the prototypical size and potential. Leave it at that please. If we end up with this guy and he starts, get ready to cry.

We may have watched far different tapes on Staley...the film I have seen shows him as a rock...when he gets ahold of you...you aren't going anywhere....is he alittle raw...perhaps if you feel only two years playing at LT is not enough...I believe you learn under fire...playing on the field...not standing on the sidelines.
Thomas the highest rated LT...once was a TE....Just like Staley...except Staley has the better feet and if you look at the 10 yd times....Staley has the better time of Thomas and Brown...Thomas...1.75....Brown...1.84 and Staley weighing only 5 pounds less than Thomas...1.64

Another great sign is his 20 yd short shuttle is vastly superior than either Thomas or Brown...Thomas...4.88, Brown 4.89...Staley...4.40!!!

Add this to the mix...

Another position move in 2005 saw Staley emerge as one of the best pass protectors in college. He shifted to left tackle and did not allow any sacks, as the team featured a 2,800-yard passer in Kent Smith and a 1,000-yard rusher in Ontario Sneed.

All-American second-team selection by The NFL Draft Report...Consensus All-Mid American Conference first-team choice...Served as one of the team's three captains... Started all fourteen games at the demanding left tackle position, helping the team rank 22nd in the nation and second in the MAC with an average of 245.93 yards per game passing, while leading the conference and ranking 23rd nationally with an average of 29.71 points scored per game...The Chippewas also led the MAC with an average of 375.29 yards per game in total offense...Registered a career-high 100 knockdowns/key blocks, with 22 touchdown-resulting blocks and fifteen more blocks down field...Was penalized once, grading 85.4% for blocking consistency.



I don't care what division you play in...no sacks allowed for the season. is just gggreaattt.

miamiron
04-11-2007, 06:04 AM
We may have watched far different tapes on Staley...the film I have seen shows him as a rock...when he gets ahold of you...you aren't going anywhere....is he alittle raw...perhaps if you feel only two years playing at LT is not enough...I believe you learn under fire...playing on the field...not standing on the sidelines.
Thomas the highest rated LT...once was a TE....Just like Staley...except Staley has the better feet and if you look at the 10 yd times....Staley has the better time of Thomas and Brown...Thomas...1.75....Brown...1.84 and Staley weighing only 5 pounds less than Thomas...1.64

Another great sign is his 20 yd short shuttle is vastly superior than either Thomas or Brown...Thomas...4.88, Brown 4.89...Staley...4.40!!!

Add this to the mix...

Another position move in 2005 saw Staley emerge as one of the best pass protectors in college. He shifted to left tackle and did not allow any sacks, as the team featured a 2,800-yard passer in Kent Smith and a 1,000-yard rusher in Ontario Sneed.

All-American second-team selection by The NFL Draft Report...Consensus All-Mid American Conference first-team choice...Served as one of the team's three captains... Started all fourteen games at the demanding left tackle position, helping the team rank 22nd in the nation and second in the MAC with an average of 245.93 yards per game passing, while leading the conference and ranking 23rd nationally with an average of 29.71 points scored per game...The Chippewas also led the MAC with an average of 375.29 yards per game in total offense...Registered a career-high 100 knockdowns/key blocks, with 22 touchdown-resulting blocks and fifteen more blocks down field...Was penalized once, grading 85.4% for blocking consistency.



I don't care what division you play in...no sacks allowed for the season. is just gggreaattt.

I love Staley and Bauzin his teammate but remember the quality of players they played against was not the same as the other 2 you are comparing Staley to. hE MAY HAVE FUTURE POTENTIAL BUT WILL NOT BE AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT PLAYER LIKE THOMAS OR BROWN

finfan54
04-11-2007, 07:44 AM
We may have watched far different tapes on Staley...the film I have seen shows him as a rock...when he gets ahold of you...you aren't going anywhere....is he alittle raw...perhaps if you feel only two years playing at LT is not enough...I believe you learn under fire...playing on the field...not standing on the sidelines.
Thomas the highest rated LT...once was a TE....Just like Staley...except Staley has the better feet and if you look at the 10 yd times....Staley has the better time of Thomas and Brown...Thomas...1.75....Brown...1.84 and Staley weighing only 5 pounds less than Thomas...1.64

Another great sign is his 20 yd short shuttle is vastly superior than either Thomas or Brown...Thomas...4.88, Brown 4.89...Staley...4.40!!!

Add this to the mix...

Another position move in 2005 saw Staley emerge as one of the best pass protectors in college. He shifted to left tackle and did not allow any sacks, as the team featured a 2,800-yard passer in Kent Smith and a 1,000-yard rusher in Ontario Sneed.

All-American second-team selection by The NFL Draft Report...Consensus All-Mid American Conference first-team choice...Served as one of the team's three captains... Started all fourteen games at the demanding left tackle position, helping the team rank 22nd in the nation and second in the MAC with an average of 245.93 yards per game passing, while leading the conference and ranking 23rd nationally with an average of 29.71 points scored per game...The Chippewas also led the MAC with an average of 375.29 yards per game in total offense...Registered a career-high 100 knockdowns/key blocks, with 22 touchdown-resulting blocks and fifteen more blocks down field...Was penalized once, grading 85.4% for blocking consistency.



I don't care what division you play in...no sacks allowed for the season. is just gggreaattt.


This is what Wade Smith was. He looked great the first season and looked to be on his way, then all of a sudden, the truth came out and he was a turnstile.

I just saw a glimps, albeit a glimpse of him yesterday on NFL Network and I saw nothing of the sort of his guy being stuffed. I saw the guy eventually getting around him. And why are people touting a fast forty time? His fast forty time tells me he is light in the pants and he can be easily bull rushed. The pluses has been his firing out. I think he is more a better blocker, but not in Levi's level and certainly not as strong or powerful.

finfan54
04-11-2007, 07:47 AM
I love Brown if he's there at #9, if not, there are some LT's later in the draft that could also help us. Barbre would be a great pick in the fifth round if we had one (that's where i project him to go). Barbre is possibly the third best LT available in the draft (after Thomas and Brown). I also like the potential of Gabe Hall and have us selecting him in the sixth only b/c I don't think Barbre will slide to the sixth round.

GO PHINS~!


To me, Levi Brown = Tarrik Glenn

Springveldt
04-11-2007, 08:29 AM
Levi Brown is also very athletic. Those who suggest otherwise do not know what they are talking about.
Going by his combine results Levi Brown is very un-athletic. His vertical jump, broad jump, 10 yard split and 3 cone drills where among the worse for offensive linemen.
10 Yard Split - 1.84
3 Cone Drill - 7.87
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.8
Broad Jump - 8'1"
Vertical - 25.5"

Those are pretty terrible numbers for someone who is projected to be a left tackle. He's about as un-athletic as you will find at the left tackle position.

fishypete
04-11-2007, 10:08 AM
I love Staley and Bauzin his teammate but remember the quality of players they played against was not the same as the other 2 you are comparing Staley to. hE MAY HAVE FUTURE POTENTIAL BUT WILL NOT BE AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT PLAYER LIKE THOMAS OR BROWN

You forget Staley held his own at the senior Bowl....against the best.

fishypete
04-11-2007, 10:15 AM
This is what Wade Smith was. He looked great the first season and looked to be on his way, then all of a sudden, the truth came out and he was a turnstile.

I just saw a glimps, albeit a glimpse of him yesterday on NFL Network and I saw nothing of the sort of his guy being stuffed. I saw the guy eventually getting around him. And why are people touting a fast forty time? His fast forty time tells me he is light in the pants and he can be easily bull rushed. The pluses has been his firing out. I think he is more a better blocker, but not in Levi's level and certainly not as strong or powerful.

Lite in the pants? He's five pounds less than Thomas. Thomas did 28 reps at 225...Brown 31 and Staley did 27...gee only one rep less than Thomas...he better eat a bagel or two...:lol:
As I have said before....Staley held his own at the senior Bowl....playing against the best coming out. Staley has two years at LT...and one season at RT...so it's not like he's just learning the position....he'll be a great addition to the Dolphins.

ckparrothead
04-11-2007, 01:46 PM
My god Pete, I can't believe it but I could not possibly agree more with you. That has to be a first.

I've expressed my discomfort with Joe Thomas since halfway through the college season...but I don't want to be mistaken for hating him. I like him, have liked him since 2005 when it looked like he might come out and I reviewed him back then. His story is a great one. But, back then he was more like a mid-first than a top 5 guy and now he's being pinned as a top 5 guy and I just don't like that.

My problem with him is that he has short arms, about 32.5 inches, and he plays like it. Wonderful footwork and he's a fantastic technical zone blocker, and contrary to all the stuff about Brown playing with way more power I think Thomas plays with good power and is good when he gets his hands on you. But, the Robert Gallery comparisons are very real in that he doesn't have the tape of him going up against great pass rushers in one-on-one pass pro and coming out on top from snap to whistle. I think he gets bailed out by the offense because of zone protection schemes as well as short drops, and an offense that, let's face it, sees a RB taking a handoff 56% of the time while a QB drops back to pass only 44% of the time. To say that just "dulls" a pass rush is a bit of an understatement. Joe Thomas didn't often face speed DEs that were pinning their ears back rushing the passer.

And when you're picking in the top 5, what you don't know CAN kill you.

Meanwhile I love everything about Levi Brown but his athleticism. He just does...not...have it. He doesn't have the quick feet to pass protect at the pro level from the left side, I'm sorry. It just is not there. The most comparable athlete at left tackle in the NFL, by the numbers, would probably be Marvel Smith of the Steelers...and if you read between the lines, the Steelers don't view him as the long term answer at LT. They've been all over Levi Brown AND Joe Staley in this draft process, trying to see if one of those guys can replace Marvel.

That doesn't mean he can't be a good LT. Jon Tait is a great player in this league, a great RT, and he can play LT in a pinch, which he did this year for the Bears and he did it ok. He'd be much better off as a RT, though and that is what I see Levi Brown becoming.

I consider the best pure left tackle prospects in this draft to be Joe Staley and Doug Free.

Here is why.

Staley has the quick feet to play the position. He has the long arms. His running ability, on a relative basis to the rest of the draft prospects and the NFL, is probably the best to come out since Willie Roaf. And Pete, you're absolutely right, on film he shows a tremendous pad level and wide base and that helps him stone wall defenders. His center of gravity is highly notable and he's got the quick feet to maintain that pad level and center of gravity while adjusting and staying in front of his assignment.

What he lacks seems to be upper body strength and the ability to use his hands and punch as iron poles that allow him to effectively block people when he's not square. He has the feet to make up for that at the college level, though...will the feet (which are highly notable even at the NFL level) be enough to make up for that at the NFL level? That's your question mark.

But I will tell you this, his pass protection record at Central Michigan does not scare me at all, in fact I believe it is a big strength for him. This year, CMU played a tough out of conference schedule, so I'm not buying the level of competition thing. They played Michigan. They played Boston College. They played Kentucky. They played Ameer Ismail (one of the top sackers in the country) and Western Michigan. Last year they played Penn State. Combine that with the Senior Bowl and there is enough tape out there of Joe Staley going up against top level programs and players to make some valid judgments.

The thing I like about his pass pro record is that CMU was very much a pass-oriented offense. They dropped back to pass with QBs about 66% to only 33% runningback handoffs. That puts tremendous pressure on offensive tackles in pass pro, I don't care what level opponents you're playing. It is entirely possible that even with Staley playing at CMU, and with Thomas at Wisconsin, Staley's pass pro record is more reflective of his NFL suitability than Thomas' is...because of how much more pressure Staley had to deal with that Thomas did not.

Now, as for Doug Free...I have loved him for a long time. He also has tremendously quick feet and I love his attitude. His coach likes to point out how he's such a freak of nature he'll actually drop back to pass protect, then when the pass is off, run all the way down field in time to block a safety away from the guy that caught the ball. He's got a huge frame, a truly hulking man with long arms, VERY large hands (big plus), probably more natural upper body strength than Staley though his bench reps didn't reflect it, and I just like his background. On the outset it looks as if Free played at a very run-oriented program with Garrett Wolfe in 2005, but on closer inspection 2006 was more of a spread-type offense where Wolfe ran a lot out of passing sets...which is a little bit different. Also the split in 2006 was about 50/50. Free has had some trouble handling speed rushers, I believe Gholston gave him a tough time and I know Tommy Blake of TCU gave him a tough time...but I think his technique just needs refining in that regard...he's got the tools and ability to handle them better.

fishypete
04-11-2007, 01:55 PM
My god Pete, I can't believe it but I could not possibly agree more with you. That has to be a first.

I've expressed my discomfort with Joe Thomas since halfway through the college season...but I don't want to be mistaken for hating him. I like him, have liked him since 2005 when it looked like he might come out and I reviewed him back then. His story is a great one. But, back then he was more like a mid-first than a top 5 guy and now he's being pinned as a top 5 guy and I just don't like that.

My problem with him is that he has short arms, about 32.5 inches, and he plays like it. Wonderful footwork and he's a fantastic technical zone blocker, and contrary to all the stuff about Brown playing with way more power I think Thomas plays with good power and is good when he gets his hands on you. But, the Robert Gallery comparisons are very real in that he doesn't have the tape of him going up against great pass rushers in one-on-one pass pro and coming out on top from snap to whistle. I think he gets bailed out by the offense because of zone protection schemes as well as short drops, and an offense that, let's face it, sees a RB taking a handoff 56% of the time while a QB drops back to pass only 44% of the time. To say that just "dulls" a pass rush is a bit of an understatement. Joe Thomas didn't often face speed DEs that were pinning their ears back rushing the passer.

And when you're picking in the top 5, what you don't know CAN kill you.

Meanwhile I love everything about Levi Brown but his athleticism. He just does...not...have it. He doesn't have the quick feet to pass protect at the pro level from the left side, I'm sorry. It just is not there. The most comparable athlete at left tackle in the NFL, by the numbers, would probably be Marvel Smith of the Steelers...and if you read between the lines, the Steelers don't view him as the long term answer at LT. They've been all over Levi Brown AND Joe Staley in this draft process, trying to see if one of those guys can replace Marvel.

That doesn't mean he can't be a good LT. Jon Tait is a great player in this league, a great RT, and he can play LT in a pinch, which he did this year for the Bears and he did it ok. He'd be much better off as a RT, though and that is what I see Levi Brown becoming.

I consider the best pure left tackle prospects in this draft to be Joe Staley and Doug Free.

Here is why.

Staley has the quick feet to play the position. He has the long arms. His running ability, on a relative basis to the rest of the draft prospects and the NFL, is probably the best to come out since Willie Roaf. And Pete, you're absolutely right, on film he shows a tremendous pad level and wide base and that helps him stone wall defenders. His center of gravity is highly notable and he's got the quick feet to maintain that pad level and center of gravity while adjusting and staying in front of his assignment.

What he lacks seems to be upper body strength and the ability to use his hands and punch as iron poles that allow him to effectively block people when he's not square. He has the feet to make up for that at the college level, though...will the feet (which are highly notable even at the NFL level) be enough to make up for that at the NFL level? That's your question mark.

But I will tell you this, his pass protection record at Central Michigan does not scare me at all, in fact I believe it is a big strength for him. This year, CMU played a tough out of conference schedule, so I'm not buying the level of competition thing. They played Michigan. They played Boston College. They played Kentucky. They played Ameer Ismail (one of the top sackers in the country) and Western Michigan. Last year they played Penn State. Combine that with the Senior Bowl and there is enough tape out there of Joe Staley going up against top level programs and players to make some valid judgments.

The thing I like about his pass pro record is that CMU was very much a pass-oriented offense. They dropped back to pass with QBs about 66% to only 33% runningback handoffs. That puts tremendous pressure on offensive tackles in pass pro, I don't care what level opponents you're playing. It is entirely possible that even with Staley playing at CMU, and with Thomas at Wisconsin, Staley's pass pro record is more reflective of his NFL suitability than Thomas' is...because of how much more pressure Staley had to deal with that Thomas did not.

Now, as for Doug Free...I have loved him for a long time. He also has tremendously quick feet and I love his attitude. His coach likes to point out how he's such a freak of nature he'll actually drop back to pass protect, then when the pass is off, run all the way down field in time to block a safety away from the guy that caught the ball. He's got a huge frame, a truly hulking man with long arms, VERY large hands (big plus), probably more natural upper body strength than Staley though his bench reps didn't reflect it, and I just like his background. On the outset it looks as if Free played at a very run-oriented program with Garrett Wolfe in 2005, but on closer inspection 2006 was more of a spread-type offense where Wolfe ran a lot out of passing sets...which is a little bit different. Also the split in 2006 was about 50/50. Free has had some trouble handling speed rushers, I believe Gholston gave him a tough time and I know Tommy Blake of TCU gave him a tough time...but I think his technique just needs refining in that regard...he's got the tools and ability to handle them better.

CK...It isn't a first and hopefully won't be the last:)

Funny thing is....Thomas gets the hype...but he played only one year more than Staley at LT...and if you add in Staleys play at RT...they are even. Before every thing else...the Dolphins need a LT...and a center...for the next 10 years or so....imho. Houck hasn't work any miracles with the scrap's we have now...the two best O-line players the Dolphins have are Hadnot who should be at guard and Carey, at RT. The O-line has to be fixed...before the team can improve.

Lab3003
04-11-2007, 02:00 PM
Pro Football Weekly says some NFL evaluators consider Levi Brown better than Joe Thomas at OT. It is interesting what pass rushers who played against both said about them.

I don't agree, but again I am no expert. What do you think?

http://nflblogs.profootballweekly.com/NFLdraft/

Those who say Levi Brown is better are ridiculous.

finfan54
04-11-2007, 02:31 PM
Going by his combine results Levi Brown is very un-athletic. His vertical jump, broad jump, 10 yard split and 3 cone drills where among the worse for offensive linemen.
10 Yard Split - 1.84
3 Cone Drill - 7.87
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.8
Broad Jump - 8'1"
Vertical - 25.5"

Those are pretty terrible numbers for someone who is projected to be a left tackle. He's about as un-athletic as you will find at the left tackle position.


hmmm, are we not talking LT here? Are we not talking about a guy who is bigger than the other LT's in this draft? Are we not talking about a different kind of athleticism when talking about LT. Who really wants a LT who runs a 4.7? I dont think that has anything to do with being able to block and have the knowhow of the position.

I am not saying Staley sucks. I think he has some good upside. But people have been touting him as a legit LT and Brown as not necessarily. I find that assumption amazing. Staley is a former TE. Levi Brown is a bigger LT for four years. I say take your chances on Brown if you are talking about a guy who will start right away at LT. Not a year from now.

finfan54
04-11-2007, 02:41 PM
Those who say Levi Brown is better are ridiculous.

why? blanket statements like these are never backed up a year or two from now.

I think what it comes down to is your style of offense and the type of blockers you covet. To me, it doesnt really matter who is better unless Joe Thomas drops down to us, then it becomes a necessary arguement, one in which I would have no problem drafting Joe Thomas if this is the case.

But those who are making arguements about who is better are really not far fetched ideas. Its all in the eye of the beholder. Levi Brown is big, has a good punch, stifles defenders immediately, does not ussually (but still does occasionally) lose ground, is a great run blocker and at second level, and can absolutely punish an interior DL if blocking down, and yes, is athletic enough to move around for a big guy. Has played the position for four years against good competition.

Whats not to like about that?

The good far outweighs the bad IMO. Those who suggest he is not that good are not really being objective here. Joe Thomas is going to be a good LT in the NFL. How good remains to be seen. I think once you are projected to go somewhere in the draft, everyone believes this guy is the best. Not necessarily so, and same for Levi Brown as well. but it still has to be proven and this is all talk. Levi Brown has backed up his play for four years at Penn State.

ckparrothead
04-11-2007, 05:27 PM
CK...It isn't a first and hopefully won't be the last:)

Funny thing is....Thomas gets the hype...but he played only one year more than Staley at LT...and if you add in Staleys play at RT...they are even. Before every thing else...the Dolphins need a LT...and a center...for the next 10 years or so....imho. Houck hasn't work any miracles with the scrap's we have now...the two best O-line players the Dolphins have are Hadnot who should be at guard and Carey, at RT. The O-line has to be fixed...before the team can improve.

Well in retrospect one thing I can definitely give you credit for is that the Miami Dolphins today would be in much better shape had they drafted Nick Mangold, a guy you kept trying to plump for our #16 pick, instead of Jason Allen. Many of us doubted the "value" involved but there's no doubt that the Dolphins would be better off.

This year the front office do seem to agree with us about Joe Staley. He is still very much in the mix at #9...especially with some serious questions about Ted Ginn Jr. now.

Of course, if Brady Quinn gets within striking distance, all is moot.

caneaddict
04-11-2007, 05:39 PM
CK...It isn't a first and hopefully won't be the last:)

Funny thing is....Thomas gets the hype...but he played only one year more than Staley at LT...and if you add in Staleys play at RT...they are even. Before every thing else...the Dolphins need a LT...and a center...for the next 10 years or so....imho. Houck hasn't work any miracles with the scrap's we have now...the two best O-line players the Dolphins have are Hadnot who should be at guard and Carey, at RT. The O-line has to be fixed...before the team can improve.


I completely agree. We need to get those two positions squared away or everything else we do will not work.

That's why I'm so high on getting Kahlil. I think if he's available at #40, we HAVE to take him. As for the 1st round; I am all for getting a solid LT. Problem is that just cause we need something doesn't make it appear.

I'm with everyone else on questioning Levi Brown's ability to play LT. If we needed a RT then I would be all for drafting him. As much as I would like to get a franchise LT at #9 there may just not be one available. Even if Joe Staley turns out decent it doesn;t mean he will be the type of franchise LT worthy of a #9 pick. Watching him in practice at the Senior Bowl practices, I didn't see him dominate the way D'Brick dominated last year in pass protection. I know the one on one drills favor pass protectors over run blockers because they mainly test out pass blocking, but I would have liked to see more consistent dominance from a guy we take at #9. I actually wasn't happy with Levi Brown either there. I might be spoiled though from watching D'Brick dominate so clearly that my expectations are skewed.

Finole
04-11-2007, 06:41 PM
FROM NFL.COM BY VIC CARUCCI...

2. Levi Brown, Penn State
Positives: Size (6-5-plus, 323 pounds), strength and incredible athleticism.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/10069921


FROM NFL DRAFT SCOUT...

"A four year starter, Brown plays with very good technique, as well as being blessed with 6-4, 325 pound frame and surprisingly overall athleticism."

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/news/rangsreviewbypos.php?genpos=OT


FROM NFL DRAFT COUNTDOWN...

"...A superb athlete with good quickness for his size..."

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ot/levibrown.html


FROM WAR ROOM REPORT...

"Brown has a high ceiling due to his extreme strength and athleticism."

http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/ot/brown.htm


FROM NEW ERA SCOUTING...

Athletic Ability
"Has a good combination of agility and strength. Is very athletic for his size and one of the most athletic tackles available."

Movement/Space
"Is a very athletic tackle who shows good range and has the ability to block well on the move."

http://www.newerascouting.com/index.php?c=22&a=88


FROM CBS SPORTSLINE...

"I'm a great athlete, I love to play the game, I have the ability to dominate anybody," Levi Brown said. "I do plan on making it to a lot of Pro Bowls in my career."

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10023465

Jaj
04-11-2007, 06:43 PM
I still don't understand how he blew it when it came to the combine.

Phanatical
04-11-2007, 10:34 PM
My god Pete, I can't believe it but I could not possibly agree more with you. That has to be a first.

I've expressed my discomfort with Joe Thomas since halfway through the college season...but I don't want to be mistaken for hating him. I like him, have liked him since 2005 when it looked like he might come out and I reviewed him back then. His story is a great one. But, back then he was more like a mid-first than a top 5 guy and now he's being pinned as a top 5 guy and I just don't like that.

My problem with him is that he has short arms, about 32.5 inches, and he plays like it. Wonderful footwork and he's a fantastic technical zone blocker, and contrary to all the stuff about Brown playing with way more power I think Thomas plays with good power and is good when he gets his hands on you. But, the Robert Gallery comparisons are very real in that he doesn't have the tape of him going up against great pass rushers in one-on-one pass pro and coming out on top from snap to whistle. I think he gets bailed out by the offense because of zone protection schemes as well as short drops, and an offense that, let's face it, sees a RB taking a handoff 56% of the time while a QB drops back to pass only 44% of the time. To say that just "dulls" a pass rush is a bit of an understatement. Joe Thomas didn't often face speed DEs that were pinning their ears back rushing the passer.

And when you're picking in the top 5, what you don't know CAN kill you.

Meanwhile I love everything about Levi Brown but his athleticism. He just does...not...have it. He doesn't have the quick feet to pass protect at the pro level from the left side, I'm sorry. It just is not there. The most comparable athlete at left tackle in the NFL, by the numbers, would probably be Marvel Smith of the Steelers...and if you read between the lines, the Steelers don't view him as the long term answer at LT. They've been all over Levi Brown AND Joe Staley in this draft process, trying to see if one of those guys can replace Marvel.

That doesn't mean he can't be a good LT. Jon Tait is a great player in this league, a great RT, and he can play LT in a pinch, which he did this year for the Bears and he did it ok. He'd be much better off as a RT, though and that is what I see Levi Brown becoming.

I consider the best pure left tackle prospects in this draft to be Joe Staley and Doug Free.

Here is why.

Staley has the quick feet to play the position. He has the long arms. His running ability, on a relative basis to the rest of the draft prospects and the NFL, is probably the best to come out since Willie Roaf. And Pete, you're absolutely right, on film he shows a tremendous pad level and wide base and that helps him stone wall defenders. His center of gravity is highly notable and he's got the quick feet to maintain that pad level and center of gravity while adjusting and staying in front of his assignment.

What he lacks seems to be upper body strength and the ability to use his hands and punch as iron poles that allow him to effectively block people when he's not square. He has the feet to make up for that at the college level, though...will the feet (which are highly notable even at the NFL level) be enough to make up for that at the NFL level? That's your question mark.

But I will tell you this, his pass protection record at Central Michigan does not scare me at all, in fact I believe it is a big strength for him. This year, CMU played a tough out of conference schedule, so I'm not buying the level of competition thing. They played Michigan. They played Boston College. They played Kentucky. They played Ameer Ismail (one of the top sackers in the country) and Western Michigan. Last year they played Penn State. Combine that with the Senior Bowl and there is enough tape out there of Joe Staley going up against top level programs and players to make some valid judgments.

The thing I like about his pass pro record is that CMU was very much a pass-oriented offense. They dropped back to pass with QBs about 66% to only 33% runningback handoffs. That puts tremendous pressure on offensive tackles in pass pro, I don't care what level opponents you're playing. It is entirely possible that even with Staley playing at CMU, and with Thomas at Wisconsin, Staley's pass pro record is more reflective of his NFL suitability than Thomas' is...because of how much more pressure Staley had to deal with that Thomas did not.

Now, as for Doug Free...I have loved him for a long time. He also has tremendously quick feet and I love his attitude. His coach likes to point out how he's such a freak of nature he'll actually drop back to pass protect, then when the pass is off, run all the way down field in time to block a safety away from the guy that caught the ball. He's got a huge frame, a truly hulking man with long arms, VERY large hands (big plus), probably more natural upper body strength than Staley though his bench reps didn't reflect it, and I just like his background. On the outset it looks as if Free played at a very run-oriented program with Garrett Wolfe in 2005, but on closer inspection 2006 was more of a spread-type offense where Wolfe ran a lot out of passing sets...which is a little bit different. Also the split in 2006 was about 50/50. Free has had some trouble handling speed rushers, I believe Gholston gave him a tough time and I know Tommy Blake of TCU gave him a tough time...but I think his technique just needs refining in that regard...he's got the tools and ability to handle them better.

What do you think of Barbre? I think that guy might be the steal of the draft if someone can pick him up in the fifth round or so. He was projected much lower but has been steadily climbing. I used to have him in the sixth in my mock but he won't last that long and I can't see us taking him in the fourth.

ckparrothead
04-11-2007, 10:44 PM
What do you think of Barbre? I think that guy might be the steal of the draft if someone can pick him up in the fifth round or so. He was projected much lower but has been steadily climbing. I used to have him in the sixth in my mock but he won't last that long and I can't see us taking him in the fourth.

The story is out on him and right now a lot of folks are projecting him to be one of the top 5 guards in the draft. He moves around exceptionally well, but you really won't know what he's like until you get him up against better competition.

ckparrothead
04-11-2007, 10:47 PM
FROM NFL.COM BY VIC CARUCCI...

2. Levi Brown, Penn State
Positives: Size (6-5-plus, 323 pounds), strength and incredible athleticism.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/10069921


FROM NFL DRAFT SCOUT...

"A four year starter, Brown plays with very good technique, as well as being blessed with 6-4, 325 pound frame and surprisingly overall athleticism."

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/news/rangsreviewbypos.php?genpos=OT


FROM NFL DRAFT COUNTDOWN...

"...A superb athlete with good quickness for his size..."

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ot/levibrown.html


FROM WAR ROOM REPORT...

"Brown has a high ceiling due to his extreme strength and athleticism."

http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/ot/brown.htm


FROM NEW ERA SCOUTING...

Athletic Ability
"Has a good combination of agility and strength. Is very athletic for his size and one of the most athletic tackles available."

Movement/Space
"Is a very athletic tackle who shows good range and has the ability to block well on the move."

http://www.newerascouting.com/index.php?c=22&a=88


FROM CBS SPORTSLINE...

"I'm a great athlete, I love to play the game, I have the ability to dominate anybody," Levi Brown said. "I do plan on making it to a lot of Pro Bowls in my career."

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10023465

Yeah and every single one of those notes were grossly exaggerated. He slides pretty well but he absolutely BLEW IT at the Combine, and then did not bother to make anything up at his pro day which suggests that his training results were not any different from his Combine results.

Again, not a single franchise LT in the NFL moves around as poorly or is as poor an athlete as Levi Brown tested at the Combine. The only one that comes close is Marvel Smith and as I said he is not a franchise LT, and the Steelers seem to be actively trying to replace him long term.

Jaj
04-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Somehow I doubt that Houck signs off on a relatively unathletic pick with the 9th overall. More than likely he knows what he's got in Alabi. I could see us drafting a tackle late though (if it's not Staley offcourse), but a veteran will probably be brought in soon. Kenyatta Walker is probably a fair target considering his physical ability. Houck may take a crack at him making him a decent backup.

Phanatical
04-12-2007, 12:38 AM
The story is out on him and right now a lot of folks are projecting him to be one of the top 5 guards in the draft. He moves around exceptionally well, but you really won't know what he's like until you get him up against better competition.

The guy is REALLY fast and moves REALLY well. I don't see him moving to guard, he has LT stamped all over him.

GO PHINS~!

ckparrothead
04-12-2007, 01:49 AM
The guy is REALLY fast and moves REALLY well. I don't see him moving to guard, he has LT stamped all over him.

GO PHINS~!

Doesn't have the size or arm length. He's an even 6'4" and has 33.5 inch arms. He weighs only 300 pounds.

He's a guard prospect. Most people are considering him as such, for now...until/unless he surprises someone. But, it took a lot for Derrick Deese and Mark Dixon, similarly sized guys, to get their shot at LT.

fishypete
04-12-2007, 02:50 AM
hmmm, are we not talking LT here? Are we not talking about a guy who is bigger than the other LT's in this draft? Are we not talking about a different kind of athleticism when talking about LT. Who really wants a LT who runs a 4.7? I dont think that has anything to do with being able to block and have the knowhow of the position.

I am not saying Staley sucks. I think he has some good upside. But people have been touting him as a legit LT and Brown as not necessarily. I find that assumption amazing. Staley is a former TE. Levi Brown is a bigger LT for four years. I say take your chances on Brown if you are talking about a guy who will start right away at LT. Not a year from now.

Thomas was a TE too....so I guess that makes him a lousy player? The 40 times are far less important that the 10yd and 20 yd times.....and thats where Staley is far above both Thomas and Brown. As far as size....it's really not that important....Webb was under 300 lbs when the Dolphins drafted him...and stayed that way for years...Staley is 306 lbs...in a year or two he'll be 315-320...and thats more than enough.

Jaj
04-12-2007, 02:54 AM
Levi Brown was abominal at the combine as far as his 20 yard shuttle. The 40 I can accept but not the shuttle time. He really did look like a right tackle unfortunately.

miamiron
04-12-2007, 06:16 AM
Yeah and every single one of those notes were grossly exaggerated. He slides pretty well but he absolutely BLEW IT at the Combine, and then did not bother to make anything up at his pro day which suggests that his training results were not any different from his Combine results.

Again, not a single franchise LT in the NFL moves around as poorly or is as poor an athlete as Levi Brown tested at the Combine. The only one that comes close is Marvel Smith and as I said he is not a franchise LT, and the Steelers seem to be actively trying to replace him long term.

No offense but there seems to be quite a few sources that say the opposite of what you are saying in refering to Levi's lack of athletecism and if I had to make up my mind when I watched him just dominate during the senior bowl week practices against the best of the best I would have to say your way off on your apprasial of Levi

miamiron
04-12-2007, 06:19 AM
Thomas was a TE too....so I guess that makes him a lousy player? The 40 times are far less important that the 10yd and 20 yd times.....and thats where Staley is far above both Thomas and Brown. As far as size....it's really not that important....Webb was under 300 lbs when the Dolphins drafted him...and stayed that way for years...Staley is 306 lbs...in a year or two he'll be 315-320...and thats more than enough.

If your left tackle has to run 10 and 20 yards a play your team has some major issues.I want a left tackle that can block and can knock someone on there A$$...THATS IT...NO 40TIMES...NO SHORT SHUTTLE...NO 10 YARD SPLIT...NO 20 YARD SPLIT...JUST SMASH MOUTH FOOTBALL

Phanatical
04-12-2007, 07:07 AM
No offense but there seems to be quite a few sources that say the opposite of what you are saying in refering to Levi's lack of athletecism and if I had to make up my mind when I watched him just dominate during the senior bowl week practices against the best of the best I would have to say your way off on your apprasial of Levi

I would have to agree with that. :D

GO PHINS~!

Phanatical
04-12-2007, 07:11 AM
Doesn't have the size or arm length. He's an even 6'4" and has 33.5 inch arms. He weighs only 300 pounds.

He's a guard prospect. Most people are considering him as such, for now...until/unless he surprises someone. But, it took a lot for Derrick Deese and Mark Dixon, similarly sized guys, to get their shot at LT.

He's listed as a LT on most draft websites.... Anyway, with his ability, backing up at LT and/or RT, and/or moving to guard, wouldn't be bad scenarios for the Phins.

GO PHINS~!

finfan54
04-12-2007, 07:45 AM
I still don't understand how he blew it when it came to the combine.


The only thing he blew was the forty yard dash.


I dont know about the rest of you, but I dont think i want my Olinemen to run fast. I want them to kick some *** on a consistant basis.

finfan54
04-12-2007, 07:48 AM
Somehow I doubt that Houck signs off on a relatively unathletic pick with the 9th overall. More than likely he knows what he's got in Alabi. I could see us drafting a tackle late though (if it's not Staley offcourse), but a veteran will probably be brought in soon. Kenyatta Walker is probably a fair target considering his physical ability. Houck may take a crack at him making him a decent backup.



This is why we have a problem in the first place.

Lab3003
04-12-2007, 07:54 AM
why? blanket statements like these are never backed up a year or two from now.

I think what it comes down to is your style of offense and the type of blockers you covet. To me, it doesnt really matter who is better unless Joe Thomas drops down to us, then it becomes a necessary arguement, one in which I would have no problem drafting Joe Thomas if this is the case.

But those who are making arguements about who is better are really not far fetched ideas. Its all in the eye of the beholder. Levi Brown is big, has a good punch, stifles defenders immediately, does not ussually (but still does occasionally) lose ground, is a great run blocker and at second level, and can absolutely punish an interior DL if blocking down, and yes, is athletic enough to move around for a big guy. Has played the position for four years against good competition.

Whats not to like about that?

The good far outweighs the bad IMO. Those who suggest he is not that good are not really being objective here. Joe Thomas is going to be a good LT in the NFL. How good remains to be seen. I think once you are projected to go somewhere in the draft, everyone believes this guy is the best. Not necessarily so, and same for Levi Brown as well. but it still has to be proven and this is all talk. Levi Brown has backed up his play for four years at Penn State.

The problem with your argument is the he doesn't do those things as well as Joe Thomas has demonstrated. Levi Brown also doesn't have the zone blocking skill set Hudson Houck needs.

finfan54
04-12-2007, 07:58 AM
You forget Staley held his own at the senior Bowl....against the best.


Joe Staley blew two blocking assignments by blocking down instead of taking on the DE (duh). Joe Staley looked good to the scouts in practice for the most part, but make no mistake, Joe Staley makes mistakes and he is an underdog, and well, everyone loves underdogs.

I am not saying Joe Staley is going to suck or will not become a good LT, but I do not see him as polished as Levi and he will not start right away, that is for damn sure.

maybe Houck wants this guy more because of Alabi. I say we will pay the price if we do not get Levi Brown for years to come because we will fall to the middle of the pack again and never have a chance at a legitimate LT again. The LT spot gets alot of miscalculations because of value and some people see Levi as not a good value because every once in a while he screws up. I ask, who doesnt? Want to ask Todd Light how he felt after JT abused his sorry ***?

Bottom line: Levi Brown can play LT and he would be a great fit for our team based on what we play (Cam's offense).

I would take Quinn, Laron Landry, Patrick Willis over Levi but Levi is a need position and he can play the position from the start. In other words, he is good enough. Plus the others may be gone, so that is why I have locked onto Levi. I am still open minded but what i constantly hear is rah rah rah and not enough critical analyzing all around that jives with what most people say or what I see with my own eyes. That shows me that people are not being honest with themselves let alone myself.

finfan54
04-12-2007, 08:07 AM
The problem with your argument is the he doesn't do those things as well as Joe Thomas has demonstrated. Levi Brown also doesn't have the zone blocking skill set Hudson Houck needs.


Oh, we are a zone blocking scheme now? Thats the first I have heard this. And what do you mean "those things"? Please, tell me more. Levi played in the Senior Bowl and Joe Thomas did not. So what your saying is that Joe Thomas displayed more in shorts basically. Nothing personal, but I do not get your argument whatsoever.

fishypete
04-12-2007, 10:35 AM
Joe Staley blew two blocking assignments by blocking down instead of taking on the DE (duh). Joe Staley looked good to the scouts in practice for the most part, but make no mistake, Joe Staley makes mistakes and he is an underdog, and well, everyone loves underdogs.

I am not saying Joe Staley is going to suck or will not become a good LT, but I do not see him as polished as Levi and he will not start right away, that is for damn sure.

maybe Houck wants this guy more because of Alabi. I say we will pay the price if we do not get Levi Brown for years to come because we will fall to the middle of the pack again and never have a chance at a legitimate LT again. The LT spot gets alot of miscalculations because of value and some people see Levi as not a good value because every once in a while he screws up. I ask, who doesnt? Want to ask Todd Light how he felt after JT abused his sorry ***?

Bottom line: Levi Brown can play LT and he would be a great fit for our team based on what we play (Cam's offense).

I would take Quinn, Laron Landry, Patrick Willis over Levi but Levi is a need position and he can play the position from the start. In other words, he is good enough. Plus the others may be gone, so that is why I have locked onto Levi. I am still open minded but what i constantly hear is rah rah rah and not enough critical analyzing all around that jives with what most people say or what I see with my own eyes. That shows me that people are not being honest with themselves let alone myself.

Everyone makes mistakes.

ckparrothead
04-12-2007, 11:28 AM
Levi Brown did not dominate at the Senior Bowl. He looked ok and showed improvement throughout the week, which was a positive. But to say he dominated is a gross exaggeration.

And I don't care what anyone said about Levi Brown's athletic ability before he was ever tested. When he tested, his lack of athletic ability showed. There isn't a single franchise LT in the NFL that has as poor athletic ability as Levi Brown. Shouldn't that scare anyone? Or do we think Levi Brown is so good that he's going to re-write the book on what makes a viable NFL left tackle? Sorry, but I don't see it. Good tackle, probably a very good right tackle that can play left tackle in a pinch a la Vernon Carey.

Lab3003
04-12-2007, 11:28 AM
Oh, we are a zone blocking scheme now? Thats the first I have heard this. And what do you mean "those things"? Please, tell me more. Levi played in the Senior Bowl and Joe Thomas did not. So what your saying is that Joe Thomas displayed more in shorts basically. Nothing personal, but I do not get your argument whatsoever.

Cameron's offense requires zone blocking. Here's a link about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone-blocking

His schemes mirror the Coryell offenses of the Chargers with Dan Fouts. A good example of that offense was the KC Chiefs with Al Saunders. They used zone blocking. Willie Roaf is a prototypical zone blocking LT if you want a comparison to study.

Simply, versus engaging one blocker in "man," zone refers to guarding a single gap or sometimes multiple gaps in order to pass protect. Such technique requires more lateral movement and Levi Brown isn't known for his lateral movement but for his run-blocking ability. For that, the Dolphins should have kept Damion McIntosh, who actually graded well as a run blocker. In that frame of thought, Joe Thomas is much better than Levi Brown, based on the current evidence available.

ckparrothead
04-12-2007, 11:30 AM
I pass protection, Miami has been a zone blocking offensive line since Hudson Houck arrived. If anyone was not able to notice that, it's on them.

Finfanforever
04-12-2007, 11:46 AM
Levi Brown did not dominate at the Senior Bowl. He looked ok and showed improvement throughout the week, which was a positive. But to say he dominated is a gross exaggeration.

And I don't care what anyone said about Levi Brown's athletic ability before he was ever tested. When he tested, his lack of athletic ability showed. There isn't a single franchise LT in the NFL that has as poor athletic ability as Levi Brown. Shouldn't that scare anyone? Or do we think Levi Brown is so good that he's going to re-write the book on what makes a viable NFL left tackle? Sorry, but I don't see it. Good tackle, probably a very good right tackle that can play left tackle in a pinch a la Vernon Carey.

CK...
Let's assume then Quinn is not at #9. The Dolphins are in somewhat of a tight spot. To me, Quinn, Thomas, Peterson, Landry, and CJ are the only guys that are "worthy" of a pick at #9. If those guys are off the board the Fins should despertely try to trade down to ??? and draft??? Question- What teams would be interested and if not who do we take #9 if your not a fan of Brown? D-Tackle perhaps??? Thoughts...Thanks. :cooldude:

Finole
04-12-2007, 03:10 PM
Yeah and every single one of those notes were grossly exaggerated. He slides pretty well but he absolutely BLEW IT at the Combine, and then did not bother to make anything up at his pro day which suggests that his training results were not any different from his Combine results.

Again, not a single franchise LT in the NFL moves around as poorly or is as poor an athlete as Levi Brown tested at the Combine. The only one that comes close is Marvel Smith and as I said he is not a franchise LT, and the Steelers seem to be actively trying to replace him long term.

He blew it at the Combine? All due respect, ck, Brown performed better than you're remembering.

Levi Brown's combine
40 Yrd Dash: 5.40
20 Yrd Dash: 3.09
10 Yrd Dash: 1.84
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 31
Vertical Jump: 25 1/2
Broad Jump: 8'1"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.89
3-Cone Drill: 7.87

Joe Thomas's combine
40 Yrd Dash: 4.92
20 Yrd Dash: 2.87
10 Yrd Dash: 1.75
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 28
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 9'2"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.88
3-Cone Drill: 7.95

Thomas had a better 40, vertical jump, and broad jump.
Brown had a better 3-cone drill and he did more reps of 225 lbs.
Their 20 Yrd Shuttle is virtually identical.
And their 10 Yrd Dash is very close.

Now, if you're looking for a left tackle who can jump high, jump far, and run fast, then Thomas is your guy. But I don't think our LT is going be to running very many post patterns, or defending any passes. :D

But if you're looking for strength (Bench Reps) agility (20 Yrd Shuttle) and quickness (3-Cone Drill) then Brown is your guy.

He is athletic. And he proved it at the combine. You can't say otherwise unless you don't think Joe Thomas is athletic, either.

Quick Release
04-13-2007, 02:20 PM
Levi Brown seems very athletic to me. I watched him in the Senior Bowl, and he looked great. I've also heard that he might be a better run-blocker than Joe Thomas. That's good news for Ronnie and Ricky if we draft him.

Other than his 40, seems like he had a very good combine, too.

miamiron
04-13-2007, 08:55 PM
He blew it at the Combine? All due respect, ck, Brown performed better than you're remembering.

Levi Brown's combine
40 Yrd Dash: 5.40
20 Yrd Dash: 3.09
10 Yrd Dash: 1.84
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 31
Vertical Jump: 25 1/2
Broad Jump: 8'1"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.89
3-Cone Drill: 7.87

Joe Thomas's combine
40 Yrd Dash: 4.92
20 Yrd Dash: 2.87
10 Yrd Dash: 1.75
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 28
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 9'2"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.88
3-Cone Drill: 7.95

Thomas had a better 40, vertical jump, and broad jump.
Brown had a better 3-cone drill and he did more reps of 225 lbs.
Their 20 Yrd Shuttle is virtually identical.
And their 10 Yrd Dash is very close.

Now, if you're looking for a left tackle who can jump high, jump far, and run fast, then Thomas is your guy. But I don't think our LT is going be to running very many post patterns, or defending any passes. :D

But if you're looking for strength (Bench Reps) agility (20 Yrd Shuttle) and quickness (3-Cone Drill) then Brown is your guy.

He is athletic. And he proved it at the combine. You can't say otherwise unless you don't think Joe Thomas is athletic, either.

I have to agree with you 100% regarding Levi more so than ck

I watched ALL the senior bowl practice film and to say Levi didn't dominate is downright WRONG

NFL.com had the practice video's available for quite a while but I cannot find them to prove our point but I will scream at the top of my lungs that Levi did dominate against the best players during the whole week...and at least he
went to the senior bowl and performed unlike some other high profile
LT that is going to get picked in the top 5.

I would have loved to see Thomas against the top level competition
but alas he decided it was best not to showcase his skills because he might have seen his draft value drop depending upon his results during the senior bowl week.

Finole
04-13-2007, 09:25 PM
.....I watched ALL the senior bowl practice film and to say Levi didn't dominate is downright WRONG.....

I watched the Senior Bowl game. Levi Brown started at LT, and the North ran for 110 yards, and didn't allow one sack. Not a single sack.

finfan54
04-13-2007, 09:25 PM
Cameron's offense requires zone blocking. Here's a link about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone-blocking

His schemes mirror the Coryell offenses of the Chargers with Dan Fouts. A good example of that offense was the KC Chiefs with Al Saunders. They used zone blocking. Willie Roaf is a prototypical zone blocking LT if you want a comparison to study.

Simply, versus engaging one blocker in "man," zone refers to guarding a single gap or sometimes multiple gaps in order to pass protect. Such technique requires more lateral movement and Levi Brown isn't known for his lateral movement but for his run-blocking ability. For that, the Dolphins should have kept Damion McIntosh, who actually graded well as a run blocker. In that frame of thought, Joe Thomas is much better than Levi Brown, based on the current evidence available.

Well then there it is! We are a Zone Blocking team. Could someone get a hold of the dolphins media and ask them to ask Cam about our zone blocking sceme which requires LT's who are not so heavy? Cus I could swear that Houck was all about guys who were 310lbs +. If this is the case, we are screwed people!

Jaj
04-13-2007, 09:30 PM
Zone-blocking has nothing to do with size. That's just the Denver Bronco's style.

finfan54
04-13-2007, 09:34 PM
I watched the Senior Bowl game. Levi Brown started at LT, and the North ran for 110 yards, and didn't allow one sack. Not a single sack.


Well, I watched the Senior Bowl as well and I watched intently on the QB's and LT. I dont know if the two plays Levi Brown blew were QB sacks, I thought one was, and the other was the QB just getting rid of the ball quickly, but what I saw was Levi dominated the LSU guy all day and then Tim Crowder came in and surprised Levi with a a rather stunning punch that sent him back a step and then he went quickly inside him and got to the QB quick. BTW, a steal DE could be this guy Crowder because he has more power and ability than he shows alot of times, but back to levi....

The next play, because Levi was stunned, he was expecting a similar move but then got Crowders second move in his repatioir (sp?) was a quick move inside that also caught levi off guard again. Those were the only plays I saw levi blow.

Now Staley showing great stuff in the Senior Bowl :rolleyes2 . Not once did I ever see Staley do something that just made me go, "hey, this guy is pretty good". Instead I said, "why the hell is he blocking down when the guy in front of him isnt being blocked?" Then he did it again on another play. The DE destroyed the QB both times.

So really, Staley was not good at all unless you consider the guy he blocked down on was crunched by him, problem is.......so was his QB.

finfan54
04-13-2007, 09:44 PM
I pass protection, Miami has been a zone blocking offensive line since Hudson Houck arrived. If anyone was not able to notice that, it's on them.


right, zone blocking......ive heard so much about it.....whatever.....I know all this really is is that people who do not like Brown use these kinds of anictdotes to put down one player and build up another.
Whatever.....

If we get Staley, people will see what I am talking about. I am confident in that.

Finole
04-13-2007, 09:46 PM
Well then there it is! We are a Zone Blocking team. Could someone get a hold of the dolphins media and ask them to ask Cam about our zone blocking sceme which requires LT's who are not so heavy? Cus I could swear that Houck was all about guys who were 310lbs +. If this is the case, we are screwed people!

This link was posted in the main forum:
http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

Here's an excerpt...

What are the personnel requirements for the Coryell offense?

•OL tend to be big and physical compared to their WCO counterparts. Some WCO teams have gotten by with smaller OL (e.g. the Niners in the 1990s and the Broncos of recent years), because the linemen are able to block at angles and only need to maintain pass protection for a short period of time. Coryell OL are road graders in the running game, but they must also pass protect on drawn-out deep passing plays. Examples of solid Coryell OLs are the Cowboys' massive (at the time) championship OL in the 1990s and the Chiefs' OL in recent years.

Levi Brown is definitely a road-grader. I wish he was a little more consistent at pass protection, but I feel that is something Houck can help him with.

finfan54
04-13-2007, 10:05 PM
This link was posted in the main forum:
http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

Here's an excerpt...

What are the personnel requirements for the Coryell offense?

•OL tend to be big and physical compared to their WCO counterparts. Some WCO teams have gotten by with smaller OL (e.g. the Niners in the 1990s and the Broncos of recent years), because the linemen are able to block at angles and only need to maintain pass protection for a short period of time. Coryell OL are road graders in the running game, but they must also pass protect on drawn-out deep passing plays. Examples of solid Coryell OLs are the Cowboys' massive (at the time) championship OL in the 1990s and the Chiefs' OL in recent years.

Levi Brown is definitely a road-grader. I wish he was a little more consistent at pass protection, but I feel that is something Houck can help him with.

Thank U for enlightning me. Seriously. People say things and take it to mean one thing when its not necessarily true. To me, if we only need to maintain pass protection for a short period of time, does it not stand to reason that levi Brown is the man for the job? Could I be way off here or something?