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dougfinsfan72
04-15-2007, 09:42 PM
In its search for a LT, do you think, or is it even allowed, that the Dolphins have Jason Taylor go up against these LT Draft prospects to get a better gauge of how good they are?

Also wouldn't it be wise to test the wide receivers and defensive backs in a similar fashion, against your best player at the opposing position of your draft prospect?

I see that the Redskins are taking QB Jason Campbell with them for their tryout with Calvin Johnson and/or Ginn Jr.

jim1
04-15-2007, 09:54 PM
In its search for a LT, do you think, or is it even allowed, that the Dolphins have Jason Taylor go up against these LT Draft prospects to get a better gauge of how good they are?

Also wouldn't it be wise to test the wide receivers and defensive backs in a similar fashion, against your best player at the opposing position of your draft prospect?

I see that the Redskins are taking QB Jason Campbell with them for their tryout with Calvin Johnson and/or Ginn Jr.

My personal, humble opinion is that this mad love for Staley is out of control. He's fast and quick, but that's not enough to justify taking a guy so high. My opinion is based on seeing him play one game, so take it for what it's worth. Against second tier competition, Staley did not dominate. #40? Sure. Trade down? Why not. I would take Ginn, Levi Brown, Willis, Bowe, or Meachem over Staley. Roll the bones with Doug Free in the 3rd if you want an athletic LT. No thank you at #9. As to your point, I would love to see Staley go up against JT, but there's a problem: like Dwight Stephenson, JT makes EVERYBODY look bad (except Jonathan Ogden). Fred Smerlas was a heck of a NT. But he didn't look so hot when playing against Stephenson. JT against Staley? Bring a couple of lunch buckets, Joey. It's gonna be a long day.

ckparrothead
04-15-2007, 11:32 PM
And my personal opinion is that Staley could very much be worth the #9 pick. At least, I rate him as worthy of that pick as Joe Thomas.

There are as many unknowns about both guys, in my opinion, as far as their transition to the LT position goes.

The things you have to like about Staley that make him worthy of the #9 pick:

1. The quickest feet on an offensive line to come out in decades, possibly EVER. One longtime scout openly said he's never seen an offensive lineman have a workout like him.

2. Long arms, ideal at 34.5 inches.

3. Interviews are reported to be fantastic, for months now. It is impossible to overstate how important this is to an OL. No offensive lineman is good enough when he comes out to be top tier in the NFL. None. They all have a physical and mental learning curve. The guys that impress the heck out of you in interviews tend to be the guys that can ascend those learning curves.

4. On tape he's a natural zone blocker.

5. His upper body is strong, it isn't weak. It is the weakest part of his game on a relative basis but that doesn't make it weak on an absolute basis.

6. He's shown the ability to gain weight in the gym through diet and exercise from about 235 pounds to 305 pounds without losing speed or explosion. Again, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this. At 305 pounds, this is not the guy you want on the blind side. The same goes for Tony Ugoh at 301 pounds. The same may even be true of Joe Thomas at 311 pounds. It is certainly true of guys like James Marten (6'8", 309 lbs), Adam Koets (6'5", 298 lbs), Dane Uperesa (6'5", 309 lbs), etc. The only tackles that really might already be at the appropriate weight are Doug Free (6'6", 324 lbs) and Levi Brown (6'6", 323 lbs). So when you're projecting weight gain, you have to realize a lot of these guys are going to gain weight and lose speed on an average level, which will make them unattractive as pro NFL offensive tackles. The ones that are MOST LIKELY to be able to do it are going to be the ones that have a history showing a marked ability to do so. In Staley's case, the dramatic weight gain while not only not losing speed, but he may have actually GAINED some speed...what it shows is commitment to excellence. That is your primary conclusion. Work like that shows a tremendous work ethic, a willingness to sacrifice in the short run for long run gains. It is part of the reason he has been so impressive in interviews.

Basically we've not seen the best of Joe Staley yet, and yet what he has already shown in terms of his wide base, incredibly disciplined pad level, his power and especially his feet...are already NFL caliber. The NFL has every reason to believe that Joe Staley will get better....and that isn't always true about every prospect. That is what puts him over the top as worthy of a top 10 pick.

And that is why I do not believe anyone is getting ahead of themselves if they think Miami could draft him at #9.

Vertical Limit
04-15-2007, 11:35 PM
I actually would pass on Levi and go after Joe Staley at #9 if both were available.

Jaj
04-15-2007, 11:37 PM
There's no doubt Staley is higher in my book. Brown surprised me to be honest. I never expected him to perform so poorly at the combine. I expected him to come in with a 5.15 or so 40, a couple more reps on the bench, a much quicker shuttle, and look great at his drills. That's the kind of momentum he had after the Senior Bowl.

If he had been able to do that he would be the consensus pick to Arizona. Instead he went COMPLETELY in the other direction.

ckparrothead
04-15-2007, 11:40 PM
Would be one thing if he recovered at his pro day and ran better numbers, but he didn't even bother to re-do any of those drills at his pro day...which suggests that his training results approximated what he did at the Combine and he did not have any reason to think he'd significantly improve on them.

Jaj
04-15-2007, 11:43 PM
Bewildering really for a guy many felt was athletic. He's the opposite of athletic in my book. He might turn out to be a great right tackle, but as a left tackle he's going to have a little trouble with the lack of quickness he showed.

The one thing about tackle is that the best players usually have the best physical tools unlike quarterback in many cases.

SoDakDolfan
04-15-2007, 11:52 PM
I would love to be able to trade down a few spots, pick up an extra 3rd or 2nd rounder and take Staley.

thecoordinator
04-16-2007, 12:11 AM
I would love to be able to trade down a few spots, pick up an extra 3rd or 2nd rounder and take Staley.

my thoughts exactly

LostInPatsLand
04-16-2007, 12:34 AM
I'm not so sure Levi Brown can't play LT in the NFL despite the combine numbers. Hudson Houck thinks Vernon Carey can play LT, and Carey can't be more mobile than Brown.

ckparrothead
04-16-2007, 12:51 AM
I'm not so sure Levi Brown can't play LT in the NFL despite the combine numbers. Hudson Houck thinks Vernon Carey can play LT, and Carey can't be more mobile than Brown.

A bit of a "yes, but..." answer to this one. Carey was a good 12 pounds heavier than Levi Brown, and ran his 40 in 5.33 seconds to Brown's 5.40 seconds. He also did a 28 inch vertical to Brown's 25.5 inch vertical.

On the other hand Brown's 4.89 shuttle was better than Carey's 5.0, and his 7.87 cone was better than Carey's 8.10...

But in all seriousness, yes Carey can play left tackle, but he's not a top notch left tackle...and if the the best prediction on Brown is to be another Vernon Carey, then why would anyone be talking about him in the top 15?

Ludacris
04-16-2007, 12:53 AM
I'm not high on Joe Staley. I watched the senior bowl where he went against DE Jay Moore. Moore had 2 sacks and 2 QB pressures. One of those pressures forced the QB to fumble and the other an incompletion. Staley looked terrible.

ckparrothead
04-16-2007, 01:04 AM
I'm not high on Joe Staley. I watched the senior bowl where he went against DE Jay Moore. Moore had 2 sacks and 2 QB pressures. One of those pressures forced the QB to fumble and the other an incompletion. Staley looked terrible.

3 sacks, and 2 of them were straight up zone blocking miscommunication errors. Simply put, Staley thought he had fire zone blocking from the backs to take on Jay Moore, and he was wrong...and nobody even knows whether Staley made the mistake there or the backs did. But what we do know is that it is difficult to install a zone blocking protection scheme in one week of time, and you will notice that pretty much every Senior Bowl team coached by Norv Turner (and there have been quite a few of them) do not do well during the game itself because of that issue, among others (some others being a sneaking suspicion I have that he intentionally tosses certain players into difficult situations to let everyone see if they can rise to the occasion).

The only sack that Staley allowed where he actually ENGAGED in a block, was to Jay Moore on a bull rush. Protection against the bull rush has been long identified as Staley's primary weakness. That comes as no suprise to anyone.

After the game, several scouts told TFY that Staley had solidified his spot in the first round of the draft.

LostInPatsLand
04-16-2007, 01:18 AM
A bit of a "yes, but..." answer to this one. Carey was a good 12 pounds heavier than Levi Brown, and ran his 40 in 5.33 seconds to Brown's 5.40 seconds. He also did a 28 inch vertical to Brown's 25.5 inch vertical.

On the other hand Brown's 4.89 shuttle was better than Carey's 5.0, and his 7.87 cone was better than Carey's 8.10...

But in all seriousness, yes Carey can play left tackle, but he's not a top notch left tackle...and if the the best prediction on Brown is to be another Vernon Carey, then why would anyone be talking about him in the top 15?

Hmm. I wish I could study more tape on Brown. I've watched him only closely in the senior bowl, and I liked his ability to be able to stay in front of his man. (He did this all but one time). I know his numbers weren't great at the combine, but I'd focus mostly on how well he was able to slide and stay in front of his man during college.

ckparrothead
04-16-2007, 01:28 AM
Hmm. I wish I could study more tape on Brown. I've watched him only closely in the senior bowl, and I liked his ability to be able to stay in front of his man. (He did this all but one time). I know his numbers weren't great at the combine, but I'd focus mostly on how well he was able to slide and stay in front of his man during college.

What I would say to that is, part of the reason they do these kinds of measurements are to see how much of a guy's potential was being maxed out at the college level to do what he did.

For instance, with the poor workouts of Levi Brown's, there is a very good chance that he was able to do an adequate job playing left tackle in college but could not do so in the pros because the defensive ends he will be facing on a regular basis in the pros are all better than anything he faced in college.

In other words, every guy has to get better in order to face NFL players instead of college players...and the poor numbers for Brown suggest that he really might not be able to get much better.

There's a certain amount of doing enough to get the job done going on with these kinds of positions. What you are hoping is to find a guy with tremendous athletic potential that tells you that at the college level he used only 85% of his athleticism to handle these defensive ends but he's still got some athleticism to spare so that when he goes to the pros and faces up with much, much better defensive ends, he may be able to get the job done by using 100% of his athletic ability.

With Levi Brown, and such poor movement and running skills, you may have to think that in order to stay in front of these college DEs, he actually had to use 100% of his athletic ability...and he doesn't have any more to give when they get better.

At least, that's the FEAR. None of this is any kind of guarantee. I'm just outlining the specific fear that the poor workout #'s generate.

LostInPatsLand
04-16-2007, 01:39 AM
What I would say to that is, part of the reason they do these kinds of measurements are to see how much of a guy's potential was being maxed out at the college level to do what he did.

For instance, with the poor workouts of Levi Brown's, there is a very good chance that he was able to do an adequate job playing left tackle in college but could not do so in the pros because the defensive ends he will be facing on a regular basis in the pros are all better than anything he faced in college.

In other words, every guy has to get better in order to face NFL players instead of college players...and the poor numbers for Brown suggest that he really might not be able to get much better.

There's a certain amount of doing enough to get the job done going on with these kinds of positions. What you are hoping is to find a guy with tremendous athletic potential that tells you that at the college level he used only 85% of his athleticism to handle these defensive ends but he's still got some athleticism to spare so that when he goes to the pros and faces up with much, much better defensive ends, he may be able to get the job done by using 100% of his athletic ability.

With Levi Brown, and such poor movement and running skills, you may have to think that in order to stay in front of these college DEs, he actually had to use 100% of his athletic ability...and he doesn't have any more to give when they get better.

At least, that's the FEAR. None of this is any kind of guarantee. I'm just outlining the specific fear that the poor workout #'s generate.

Fair enough, and good analysis as usual.

Ludacris
04-16-2007, 01:54 AM
3 sacks, and 2 of them were straight up zone blocking miscommunication errors. Simply put, Staley thought he had fire zone blocking from the backs to take on Jay Moore, and he was wrong...and nobody even knows whether Staley made the mistake there or the backs did. But what we do know is that it is difficult to install a zone blocking protection scheme in one week of time, and you will notice that pretty much every Senior Bowl team coached by Norv Turner (and there have been quite a few of them) do not do well during the game itself because of that issue, among others (some others being a sneaking suspicion I have that he intentionally tosses certain players into difficult situations to let everyone see if they can rise to the occasion).

The only sack that Staley allowed where he actually ENGAGED in a block, was to Jay Moore on a bull rush. Protection against the bull rush has been long identified as Staley's primary weakness. That comes as no suprise to anyone.

After the game, several scouts told TFY that Staley had solidified his spot in the first round of the draft.

I would then say that, that speak volumes for Tony Ugoh. Ugoh went up against the North DL and held up very well despite learning the offense in a week. Well unless of course Arkansas also runs a zone blocking system.

It concerns me that Staley can not handle the bull rush and based on his play at the senior bowl I can only say he has value at picks 20+ in first round. I don't believe he is a #9 pick at all.

Regan21286
04-16-2007, 02:02 AM
And my personal opinion is that Staley could very much be worth the #9 pick. At least, I rate him as worthy of that pick as Joe Thomas.

There are as many unknowns about both guys, in my opinion, as far as their transition to the LT position goes.

The things you have to like about Staley that make him worthy of the #9 pick:

1. The quickest feet on an offensive line to come out in decades, possibly EVER. One longtime scout openly said he's never seen an offensive lineman have a workout like him.

2. Long arms, ideal at 34.5 inches.

3. Interviews are reported to be fantastic, for months now. It is impossible to overstate how important this is to an OL. No offensive lineman is good enough when he comes out to be top tier in the NFL. None. They all have a physical and mental learning curve. The guys that impress the heck out of you in interviews tend to be the guys that can ascend those learning curves.

4. On tape he's a natural zone blocker.

5. His upper body is strong, it isn't weak. It is the weakest part of his game on a relative basis but that doesn't make it weak on an absolute basis.

6. He's shown the ability to gain weight in the gym through diet and exercise from about 235 pounds to 305 pounds without losing speed or explosion. Again, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this. At 305 pounds, this is not the guy you want on the blind side. The same goes for Tony Ugoh at 301 pounds. The same may even be true of Joe Thomas at 311 pounds. It is certainly true of guys like James Marten (6'8", 309 lbs), Adam Koets (6'5", 298 lbs), Dane Uperesa (6'5", 309 lbs), etc. The only tackles that really might already be at the appropriate weight are Doug Free (6'6", 324 lbs) and Levi Brown (6'6", 323 lbs). So when you're projecting weight gain, you have to realize a lot of these guys are going to gain weight and lose speed on an average level, which will make them unattractive as pro NFL offensive tackles. The ones that are MOST LIKELY to be able to do it are going to be the ones that have a history showing a marked ability to do so. In Staley's case, the dramatic weight gain while not only not losing speed, but he may have actually GAINED some speed...what it shows is commitment to excellence. That is your primary conclusion. Work like that shows a tremendous work ethic, a willingness to sacrifice in the short run for long run gains. It is part of the reason he has been so impressive in interviews.

Basically we've not seen the best of Joe Staley yet, and yet what he has already shown in terms of his wide base, incredibly disciplined pad level, his power and especially his feet...are already NFL caliber. The NFL has every reason to believe that Joe Staley will get better....and that isn't always true about every prospect. That is what puts him over the top as worthy of a top 10 pick.

And that is why I do not believe anyone is getting ahead of themselves if they think Miami could draft him at #9.

I can agree with most of what you say about Staley especially his upside. But as for weight, Walter Jones is "only" 308lbs and Matt Light is 305lbs and those are guys I'd want to have on the blind side. So it's not all about the weight, it's about the strength.

jim1
04-16-2007, 07:28 AM
And my personal opinion is that Staley could very much be worth the #9 pick. At least, I rate him as worthy of that pick as Joe Thomas.

There are as many unknowns about both guys, in my opinion, as far as their transition to the LT position goes.

The things you have to like about Staley that make him worthy of the #9 pick:

1. The quickest feet on an offensive line to come out in decades, possibly EVER. One longtime scout openly said he's never seen an offensive lineman have a workout like him.

2. Long arms, ideal at 34.5 inches.

3. Interviews are reported to be fantastic, for months now. It is impossible to overstate how important this is to an OL. No offensive lineman is good enough when he comes out to be top tier in the NFL. None. They all have a physical and mental learning curve. The guys that impress the heck out of you in interviews tend to be the guys that can ascend those learning curves.

4. On tape he's a natural zone blocker.

5. His upper body is strong, it isn't weak. It is the weakest part of his game on a relative basis but that doesn't make it weak on an absolute basis.

6. He's shown the ability to gain weight in the gym through diet and exercise from about 235 pounds to 305 pounds without losing speed or explosion. Again, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this. At 305 pounds, this is not the guy you want on the blind side. The same goes for Tony Ugoh at 301 pounds. The same may even be true of Joe Thomas at 311 pounds. It is certainly true of guys like James Marten (6'8", 309 lbs), Adam Koets (6'5", 298 lbs), Dane Uperesa (6'5", 309 lbs), etc. The only tackles that really might already be at the appropriate weight are Doug Free (6'6", 324 lbs) and Levi Brown (6'6", 323 lbs). So when you're projecting weight gain, you have to realize a lot of these guys are going to gain weight and lose speed on an average level, which will make them unattractive as pro NFL offensive tackles. The ones that are MOST LIKELY to be able to do it are going to be the ones that have a history showing a marked ability to do so. In Staley's case, the dramatic weight gain while not only not losing speed, but he may have actually GAINED some speed...what it shows is commitment to excellence. That is your primary conclusion. Work like that shows a tremendous work ethic, a willingness to sacrifice in the short run for long run gains. It is part of the reason he has been so impressive in interviews.

Basically we've not seen the best of Joe Staley yet, and yet what he has already shown in terms of his wide base, incredibly disciplined pad level, his power and especially his feet...are already NFL caliber. The NFL has every reason to believe that Joe Staley will get better....and that isn't always true about every prospect. That is what puts him over the top as worthy of a top 10 pick.

And that is why I do not believe anyone is getting ahead of themselves if they think Miami could draft him at #9.

Staley over Levi Brown is one thing, not that I agree with it. Now Staley over Joe Thomas? Lordy. As to Staley's feet, they are great, but the greatest ever or in decades? Maybe the best this year, but I'll take D'Brick's feet over Staley's 24/7, and he was drafted last year. Just watching the games will show you that. Is all the mad love for Staley because of a recent pro day? He seems to have skyrocketed in the last 2 weeks. I saw D'Brick play last year and his feet were just stunning. I saw John Beck highlights this year- fantastic feet for a QB, stood out in my mind. Staley's did not, at least not like that. You mentioned Staley's upper body strength- in terms of base strength and functional football strength, I'm taking Brown over Staley every time. I don't even know what to say about Staley over or equal to Joe Thomas, except that I humbly disagree.

I like Staley, don't get me wrong. But there's some Mamula-esque mad love floating around this guy right now. Caveat Emptor.

MustangFinFan
04-16-2007, 08:20 AM
CK, i love ur posts man...always a great read. i got a quick question though....do you feel that we NEED an LT? or are you content with Anthony Alabi, who apparently was said to be better than Levi Brown at this point. see id hate to draft an LT...and then realize that Alabi is real solid and then...what do we do with our draftee (whether it be Staley, Brown, Ugoh)...perhaps if that does happen, we can put Staley as a TE??

vafin72
04-16-2007, 08:42 AM
While I am on the Quinn bandwagon, I recognize that Brown could be the pick at #9. My question and/or thoughts involve the belief by many that Brown or even Staley will be ready to start at LT this season. Carey couldn't handle it, why do most think Brown will be a first year starter? What makes Brown different than Carey?

If Brown or Staley turned out to be solid pros like Carey but didn't play much this year, which I think is possible, would it be a mistake to go LT at #9?

dont fumble
04-16-2007, 08:48 AM
In its search for a LT, do you think, or is it even allowed, that the Dolphins have Jason Taylor go up against these LT Draft prospects to get a better gauge of how good they are?

Also wouldn't it be wise to test the wide receivers and defensive backs in a similar fashion, against your best player at the opposing position of your draft prospect?

I see that the Redskins are taking QB Jason Campbell with them for their tryout with Calvin Johnson and/or Ginn Jr.

Hey, good question, let me know if you get it answered :wink:. It's funny how threads can get out of control before the draft.
My opinion is that those players shouldn't be involved. The coaches are good enough to see what players can do and what not, even going against lesser opponents. And just imagine, you are a young LT, wanna get drafted high. You get invited by a team like the Fins who may be willing to pay you a lot of money. This is already a big pressure situation, do you really wanna go against a JT then? Heck, Roth might be even worse, he will try to eat you alive while JT at least would shake your hand before running over you. No chance in the world they would be able to show their potential against these guys. Give them situations they know and a chance to concentrate on their technique and what else is important.

showstopper
04-16-2007, 09:26 AM
I see Joe Thomas as a very good pro, durable, consistent, slightly above average, but nothing great, certainly not all-pro. High floor-low ceiling safe bet. Where as with Staley unlimited ceiling, but a bit more risky then Thomas.

jim1
04-16-2007, 09:58 AM
I see Joe Thomas as a very good pro, durable, consistent, slightly above average, but nothing great, certainly not all-pro. High floor-low ceiling safe bet. Where as with Staley unlimited ceiling, but a bit more risky then Thomas.

Let me see Staley blow some people off the line of scrimmage and then we'll talk about an unlimited ceiling. Sub 5.0 40's and long arms are great, but let's bring this down to earth a little bit. Now Joe Thomas is slightly above average and Staley has an unlimited ceiling. Incredible. As I recall, Joe Thomas had a fantastic pro day, too. At least give the guy his props for having a stellar college career and outstanding workout numbers. To call him slightly above average is just ridiculous.

ckparrothead
04-16-2007, 04:34 PM
Staley over Levi Brown is one thing, not that I agree with it. Now Staley over Joe Thomas? Lordy. As to Staley's feet, they are great, but the greatest ever or in decades? Maybe the best this year, but I'll take D'Brick's feet over Staley's 24/7, and he was drafted last year. Just watching the games will show you that. Is all the mad love for Staley because of a recent pro day? He seems to have skyrocketed in the last 2 weeks. I saw D'Brick play last year and his feet were just stunning. I saw John Beck highlights this year- fantastic feet for a QB, stood out in my mind. Staley's did not, at least not like that. You mentioned Staley's upper body strength- in terms of base strength and functional football strength, I'm taking Brown over Staley every time. I don't even know what to say about Staley over or equal to Joe Thomas, except that I humbly disagree.

I like Staley, don't get me wrong. But there's some Mamula-esque mad love floating around this guy right now. Caveat Emptor.

You caught me on a mistake, actually. I didn't mean to say 'quickest feet'...I meant to say the best running skills. Subtle difference.

The "skyrocketed" thing is just a perception. Nobody here has access to draft boards.

Staley's feet do stand out on film, absolutely, in the way he fires off the ball. He steps out to meet the rush in a manner similar to D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

As for Staley over Joe Thomas, that's not a strict valuation standard. I believe Joe Thomas could end up a great RT. But as far as playing left tackle, a position of inherently more value, I think Staley is more suited than Thomas. That's my opinion.

And it isn't because I have Staley rising above him...rather it is because I have always disagreed with the high valuation of Joe Thomas. I believe he was not tested in pass rush at the college level in that running offense, I believe he plays short-armed, like a pillar instead of a brick wall, and I believe that what you do not know about Joe Thomas CAN kill you with a top 5 pick.

I did not like his answers to the Robert Gallery comparison questions, and I CERTAINLY didn't like the fact that he didn't have the sack to play in the Senior Bowl even though he admitted he was not injured in any way. He said he felt like he wasn't in shape enough to play the Senior Bowl. Bull **** on toast.

So basically I'm sitting here with questions about Joe Thomas' ability to pass protect, some defensive ends claiming they'd rather face Thomas than Levi Brown, physical dimensions in terms of wingspan that don't measure up, questionable competitive spirit due to the Senior Bowl sit-out, and I'm wondering why this guy is an auto top 5.

Staley comes to the Senior Bowl ready to compete, did well against top competition, came from a passing offense that saw defensive ends pinning their ears back all the time, he's got fantastic interviews and a history of working extremely hard to gain muscle mass without losing speed (body fat % reportedly 11% at 306 pounds)...he's got feet that approach D'Brickashaw Ferguson's as far as his ability to fire off the snap and meet defensive ends, ride them to the fringes, etc.

I can see why Thomas is rated higher, but I'm not buying it at left tackle. I've never been a buyer on the Joe Thomas story at left tackle. I am, however, a buyer of the Joe Staley story at left tackle.

ckparrothead
04-16-2007, 04:48 PM
Let me see Staley blow some people off the line of scrimmage and then we'll talk about an unlimited ceiling. Sub 5.0 40's and long arms are great, but let's bring this down to earth a little bit. Now Joe Thomas is slightly above average and Staley has an unlimited ceiling. Incredible. As I recall, Joe Thomas had a fantastic pro day, too. At least give the guy his props for having a stellar college career and outstanding workout numbers. To call him slightly above average is just ridiculous.

Joe Thomas reminds me a lot of Jordan Gross. Fantastic mobility but not necessarily ideal left tackles. I think run blocking will be Thomas' forte as a pro and that doesn't fit your classic left tackle mold.

You say he had a stellar college career...he did. But if you don't watch tapes on these guys then it would be hard for you to really put it into context. I just have not seen this guy faced up with speed rushers and defensive ends that have their ears pinned back in pass rush very often. I tell you what I have seen is an offense that ran the ball 56% to 44% passing, which dulls a pass rush considerably, an offense that takes some short drops, and a zone offensive line pass protection scheme that takes a lot of pressure of Thomas.

When I watch him play I don't see him fully neutralizing a defensive end that often. A lot of times, I see him losing containment before the whistle, but the play already being over because it was a bit of a short drop. He doesn't play with the long arms used to lock out pass rushers.

I realize that you weren't talking to me but the last thing I want to hear is someone who does not watch film, calling a guy who does watch film's reasonable opinion about a guy "ridiculous" or something like that. You seemed to handle disagreeing with me about it with a lot more respect and that's cool, I'm just not sure why showstopper's opinion deserved so much less respect...

jim1
04-17-2007, 10:54 PM
Joe Thomas reminds me a lot of Jordan Gross. Fantastic mobility but not necessarily ideal left tackles. I think run blocking will be Thomas' forte as a pro and that doesn't fit your classic left tackle mold.

You say he had a stellar college career...he did. But if you don't watch tapes on these guys then it would be hard for you to really put it into context. I just have not seen this guy faced up with speed rushers and defensive ends that have their ears pinned back in pass rush very often. I tell you what I have seen is an offense that ran the ball 56% to 44% passing, which dulls a pass rush considerably, an offense that takes some short drops, and a zone offensive line pass protection scheme that takes a lot of pressure of Thomas.

When I watch him play I don't see him fully neutralizing a defensive end that often. A lot of times, I see him losing containment before the whistle, but the play already being over because it was a bit of a short drop. He doesn't play with the long arms used to lock out pass rushers.

I realize that you weren't talking to me but the last thing I want to hear is someone who does not watch film, calling a guy who does watch film's reasonable opinion about a guy "ridiculous" or something like that. You seemed to handle disagreeing with me about it with a lot more respect and that's cool, I'm just not sure why showstopper's opinion deserved so much less respect...

Lack of respect wasn't intended, but to be specific about it I was a little harsh because showstopper referred to Thomas as a "slightly above average" prospect. I just find that to be absurd. I haven't seen tons of film, so not even I can put great stock in my opinions on this matter. You've seen way more Thomas film than I have , probably Staley, too. But I have seen both of them play, and I'm willing to rely upon my own counsel regarding Staley.

My basic issue here is the glowing projection regarding Staley as a pro based upon triangle numbers, agility tests, arm length, et al. By no means am I saying that they aren't important, but they're not everything. Again, when I saw Staley play he just wasn't blowing people off of the line of scrimmage as he should have been, especially since, to the best of my recollection, CMU wasn't up against a powerhouse opponent and I would think that the DE that he faced won't be playing on Sundays. Pass protection- great. Footwork- great. Drive blocking- nothing to write home about.

As an example, let's use Devin Aromoshadu. Great triangle numbers, great agility tests. And I thought that you made a convincing argument that we should take him, and sure enough we did. So then the question begs, why didn't he stick? Why did we let him go? 6-2, 200, 4.35 40. Great shuttle, cone drill, etc. The numbers don't always tell the whole story,and at the end of the day all that physical talent didn't get him a roster spot. Again, I thought that your analysis of this guy was great. I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily encapsulate every aspect of what it takes to succeed, to thrive, to make it as a successful NFL player.

That's what worries me. Now for the short version of what worries me about Staley: drive blocking and stoutness at the point of attack.

Maybe one of these draft guys can say it better regarding Staley, note the run blocking and strength critiques:

Position Specific Traits

TraitCommentsMovement/SpaceMoves very well in spaces and has no trouble hitting a moving target. His athleticism makes this a strength in his game. Has little trouble getting to the second level.Pass BlockingDoes a real nice job sealing off the edge against speed rushers. Has the quickness, agility, balance and footwork to play left tackle as a pro.QuicknessQuick enough to consistently beat speed rushers to the edge. Rivals even some top NFL tackles here.Run BlockingNeeds to bulk up to be more effective here. Does not show a consistent mean streak. Probably best suited to a zone blocking scheme in order to showcase his strengths (athleticism, quickness) and hide his weaknesses (power, strength).StrengthThis is his biggest weakness. Staley is a very strong player, but there is serious doubt as to whether he has the bulk to stand up at the point as and NFL blocker. Because of this, he will struggle against power rushers.TechniqueDoes a good job using his hands most of the time, but winds up a bit much on the punch sometimes. Shows excellent footwork. Needs more refinement here overall, as he is somewhat raw technically.

The summary is very positive:

General Comments:

"Staley is an intriguing prospect that looks to have all of the physical tools to protect the blindside, but he probably is not going to be ready to play there just yet. While he has faced some solid competition, he has not faced guys like he will be facing on Sundays. He will need some time to adjust and add muscle. He might be fine in the right type of system early on, but look for him to pay larger dividends down the road when he gets the chance to develop properly."

But where do they project him to go?

Projected Round:

2nd

Maybe he'll become great with some added muscle and work, he definitely has the raw skills. It's just a matter of top 10 being too high for a player like Staley in my opinion. He just didn't dominate at his lower level of competition, as I would expect an elite prospect from a smaller school to do.


http://www.newerascouting.com/index.php?c=22&a=101

dan the fin
04-17-2007, 11:08 PM
What I would say to that is, part of the reason they do these kinds of measurements are to see how much of a guy's potential was being maxed out at the college level to do what he did.

For instance, with the poor workouts of Levi Brown's, there is a very good chance that he was able to do an adequate job playing left tackle in college but could not do so in the pros because the defensive ends he will be facing on a regular basis in the pros are all better than anything he faced in college.

In other words, every guy has to get better in order to face NFL players instead of college players...and the poor numbers for Brown suggest that he really might not be able to get much better.

There's a certain amount of doing enough to get the job done going on with these kinds of positions. What you are hoping is to find a guy with tremendous athletic potential that tells you that at the college level he used only 85% of his athleticism to handle these defensive ends but he's still got some athleticism to spare so that when he goes to the pros and faces up with much, much better defensive ends, he may be able to get the job done by using 100% of his athletic ability.

With Levi Brown, and such poor movement and running skills, you may have to think that in order to stay in front of these college DEs, he actually had to use 100% of his athletic ability...and he doesn't have any more to give when they get better.

At least, that's the FEAR. None of this is any kind of guarantee. I'm just outlining the specific fear that the poor workout #'s generate.

I agree with this, I was engaged in an all out debate with another poster over this today. Not only that but Brown has also struggled at times in college against top speed rushers. So this scares me when it comes to being a LT in the NFL.

Phanatical
04-17-2007, 11:22 PM
And my personal opinion is that Staley could very much be worth the #9 pick. At least, I rate him as worthy of that pick as Joe Thomas.

There are as many unknowns about both guys, in my opinion, as far as their transition to the LT position goes.

The things you have to like about Staley that make him worthy of the #9 pick:

1. The quickest feet on an offensive line to come out in decades, possibly EVER. One longtime scout openly said he's never seen an offensive lineman have a workout like him.

2. Long arms, ideal at 34.5 inches.

3. Interviews are reported to be fantastic, for months now. It is impossible to overstate how important this is to an OL. No offensive lineman is good enough when he comes out to be top tier in the NFL. None. They all have a physical and mental learning curve. The guys that impress the heck out of you in interviews tend to be the guys that can ascend those learning curves.

4. On tape he's a natural zone blocker.

5. His upper body is strong, it isn't weak. It is the weakest part of his game on a relative basis but that doesn't make it weak on an absolute basis.

6. He's shown the ability to gain weight in the gym through diet and exercise from about 235 pounds to 305 pounds without losing speed or explosion. Again, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this. At 305 pounds, this is not the guy you want on the blind side. The same goes for Tony Ugoh at 301 pounds. The same may even be true of Joe Thomas at 311 pounds. It is certainly true of guys like James Marten (6'8", 309 lbs), Adam Koets (6'5", 298 lbs), Dane Uperesa (6'5", 309 lbs), etc. The only tackles that really might already be at the appropriate weight are Doug Free (6'6", 324 lbs) and Levi Brown (6'6", 323 lbs). So when you're projecting weight gain, you have to realize a lot of these guys are going to gain weight and lose speed on an average level, which will make them unattractive as pro NFL offensive tackles. The ones that are MOST LIKELY to be able to do it are going to be the ones that have a history showing a marked ability to do so. In Staley's case, the dramatic weight gain while not only not losing speed, but he may have actually GAINED some speed...what it shows is commitment to excellence. That is your primary conclusion. Work like that shows a tremendous work ethic, a willingness to sacrifice in the short run for long run gains. It is part of the reason he has been so impressive in interviews.

Basically we've not seen the best of Joe Staley yet, and yet what he has already shown in terms of his wide base, incredibly disciplined pad level, his power and especially his feet...are already NFL caliber. The NFL has every reason to believe that Joe Staley will get better....and that isn't always true about every prospect. That is what puts him over the top as worthy of a top 10 pick.

And that is why I do not believe anyone is getting ahead of themselves if they think Miami could draft him at #9.

I agree with that, but I was trashed by half the members for that opinion. :evil:

That said, I think that either Free or Barbre could develop into a starting LT very quickly as well.

GO PHINS~!

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 12:04 AM
Lack of respect wasn't intended, but to be specific about it I was a little harsh because showstopper referred to Thomas as a "slightly above average" prospect. I just find that to be absurd. I haven't seen tons of film, so not even I can put great stock in my opinions on this matter. You've seen way more Thomas film than I have , probably Staley, too. But I have seen both of them play, and I'm willing to rely upon my own counsel regarding Staley.

My basic issue here is the glowing projection regarding Staley as a pro based upon triangle numbers, agility tests, arm length, et al. By no means am I saying that they aren't important, but they're not everything. Again, when I saw Staley play he just wasn't blowing people off of the line of scrimmage as he should have been, especially since, to the best of my recollection, CMU wasn't up against a powerhouse opponent and I would think that the DE that he faced won't be playing on Sundays. Pass protection- great. Footwork- great. Drive blocking- nothing to write home about.

As an example, let's use Devin Aromoshadu. Great triangle numbers, great agility tests. And I thought that you made a convincing argument that we should take him, and sure enough we did. So then the question begs, why didn't he stick? Why did we let him go? 6-2, 200, 4.35 40. Great shuttle, cone drill, etc. The numbers don't always tell the whole story,and at the end of the day all that physical talent didn't get him a roster spot. Again, I thought that your analysis of this guy was great. I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily encapsulate every aspect of what it takes to succeed, to thrive, to make it as a successful NFL player.

That's what worries me. Now for the short version of what worries me about Staley: drive blocking and stoutness at the point of attack.

Maybe one of these draft guys can say it better regarding Staley, note the run blocking and strength critiques:

Position Specific Traits

TraitCommentsMovement/SpaceMoves very well in spaces and has no trouble hitting a moving target. His athleticism makes this a strength in his game. Has little trouble getting to the second level.Pass BlockingDoes a real nice job sealing off the edge against speed rushers. Has the quickness, agility, balance and footwork to play left tackle as a pro.QuicknessQuick enough to consistently beat speed rushers to the edge. Rivals even some top NFL tackles here.Run BlockingNeeds to bulk up to be more effective here. Does not show a consistent mean streak. Probably best suited to a zone blocking scheme in order to showcase his strengths (athleticism, quickness) and hide his weaknesses (power, strength).StrengthThis is his biggest weakness. Staley is a very strong player, but there is serious doubt as to whether he has the bulk to stand up at the point as and NFL blocker. Because of this, he will struggle against power rushers.TechniqueDoes a good job using his hands most of the time, but winds up a bit much on the punch sometimes. Shows excellent footwork. Needs more refinement here overall, as he is somewhat raw technically.

The summary is very positive:

General Comments:

"Staley is an intriguing prospect that looks to have all of the physical tools to protect the blindside, but he probably is not going to be ready to play there just yet. While he has faced some solid competition, he has not faced guys like he will be facing on Sundays. He will need some time to adjust and add muscle. He might be fine in the right type of system early on, but look for him to pay larger dividends down the road when he gets the chance to develop properly."

But where do they project him to go?

Projected Round:

2nd

Maybe he'll become great with some added muscle and work, he definitely has the raw skills. It's just a matter of top 10 being too high for a player like Staley in my opinion. He just didn't dominate at his lower level of competition, as I would expect an elite prospect from a smaller school to do.


http://www.newerascouting.com/index.php?c=22&a=101


Five different people can look at the same film and see five different things. Everyone can watch something and make observations, but not everyone can know what they are seeing.

What I'll say about the observations such as the one you listed is that I usually don't disagree with them. That one did a particularly good job of encompassing what Staley does well and what he does not do so well.

But where they often get mixed up is when they get done making all these observations, listing what Staley does well and does not do well, they attempt to contextualize that strength/weakness profile into a draft value.

It's a leap, and it's a different process than simply evaluating a guy's strengths and weaknesses on film.

The way I see it the guy is going to be a good pass protector in the NFL for many years on the left side of the line. If he's not a vicious run blocker right now, eventually he could be...especially with the way he has shown an aptitude for gaining weight and strength without losing any speed whatsoever.

Walter Jones was not a good run blocker when he came out. He developed into one over the second half of his career. Richmond Webb was NEVER a good run blocker until probably his last year or two as a pro. Yet these guys were and always have been PREMIUM quality left tackles at the NFL level and extraordinarily valuable cogs.

Because that is what a left tackle is. He is a pass protector. That is his job. Run blocking is so far secondary to it that I can't even tell you.

What I say about Staley is he's faced some good programs out there. He faced Michigan. He faced Boston College, Kentucky, Ameer Ismail...he faced Dan Bazuin in practice every day. He played in a 66% passing offense that saw defensive ends of every opponent, from Michigan to Western Michigan, pinning their ears back and speed rushing all the time and yet, depending on which stat source you listen to, he may have only given one ONE sack during his final two years as a left tackle in this passing offense. There is disagreement here, I know...one stat source used by NFL Draft Scout says that he let up 5 sacks but I'm not sure how much I believe it, as his own school says 1 sack allowed over those final two years and that was the stat that had been widely printed in several different sources. I believe Draft Scout's stat source may have attributed several zone blocking miscommunication errors at Staley's feet that the Central Michigan staff did not lay at his feet.

Anyway...so yeah. You ask me what I want in a LT and I say a guy that is going to be able to lock out speed rushers, step up and meet them at the line, maximize pocket space, keep his pad level low, and make sure that passer's jersey stays clean the whole game.

Do I care as much that his drive blocking leaves something to be desired? No, because drive blocking is NOT where a franchise left tackle derives his value from. What is encouraging in this area is how many people have particularly noted how nasty and willing Joe Staley is in this area...Kirwan comparing him to a young Jon Runyan and others noting his enthusiasm for run blocking. That ALREADY puts him above a bunch of those premium left tackles that were one dimensional pass protectors during their time, such as Richmond Webb....in the area of run blocking. It mean the only thing that needs to catch up for him to be a premium guy in both areas, is his body...a body and work ethic that already showed the REMARKABLE ability to gain 70 pounds of muscle without losing any speed whatsoever.

I'm not betting against him, that's for damn sure. I'd rather bet on him.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 12:28 AM
A LT faces far more speed rushers than a bull type rusher...most DE's are lighter...so that they can try to get a step on the LT....Speed is far more important...but it doesn't hurt to be stronger also. Strength can be acquired...but unless your born with the speed and agility...you may never gain it.

If your looking for a run blocking LT...go with Brown...if your looking for a pass protector...go with Staley.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 01:35 AM
A LT faces far more speed rushers than a bull type rusher...most DE's are lighter...so that they can try to get a step on the LT....Speed is far more important...but it doesn't hurt to be stronger also. Strength can be acquired...but unless your born with the speed and agility...you may never gain it.

If your looking for a run blocking LT...go with Brown...if your looking for a pass protector...go with Staley.

And I might add that if you're looking for a run blocking LT, then you really ought to re-think your priorities.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 02:46 AM
And I might add that if you're looking for a run blocking LT, then you really ought to re-think your priorities.

Amen Brother.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 06:44 AM
And my personal opinion is that Staley could very much be worth the #9 pick. At least, I rate him as worthy of that pick as Joe Thomas.

There are as many unknowns about both guys, in my opinion, as far as their transition to the LT position goes.

The things you have to like about Staley that make him worthy of the #9 pick:

1. The quickest feet on an offensive line to come out in decades, possibly EVER. One longtime scout openly said he's never seen an offensive lineman have a workout like him.

2. Long arms, ideal at 34.5 inches.

3. Interviews are reported to be fantastic, for months now. It is impossible to overstate how important this is to an OL. No offensive lineman is good enough when he comes out to be top tier in the NFL. None. They all have a physical and mental learning curve. The guys that impress the heck out of you in interviews tend to be the guys that can ascend those learning curves.

4. On tape he's a natural zone blocker.

5. His upper body is strong, it isn't weak. It is the weakest part of his game on a relative basis but that doesn't make it weak on an absolute basis.

6. He's shown the ability to gain weight in the gym through diet and exercise from about 235 pounds to 305 pounds without losing speed or explosion. Again, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this. At 305 pounds, this is not the guy you want on the blind side. The same goes for Tony Ugoh at 301 pounds. The same may even be true of Joe Thomas at 311 pounds. It is certainly true of guys like James Marten (6'8", 309 lbs), Adam Koets (6'5", 298 lbs), Dane Uperesa (6'5", 309 lbs), etc. The only tackles that really might already be at the appropriate weight are Doug Free (6'6", 324 lbs) and Levi Brown (6'6", 323 lbs). So when you're projecting weight gain, you have to realize a lot of these guys are going to gain weight and lose speed on an average level, which will make them unattractive as pro NFL offensive tackles. The ones that are MOST LIKELY to be able to do it are going to be the ones that have a history showing a marked ability to do so. In Staley's case, the dramatic weight gain while not only not losing speed, but he may have actually GAINED some speed...what it shows is commitment to excellence. That is your primary conclusion. Work like that shows a tremendous work ethic, a willingness to sacrifice in the short run for long run gains. It is part of the reason he has been so impressive in interviews.

Basically we've not seen the best of Joe Staley yet, and yet what he has already shown in terms of his wide base, incredibly disciplined pad level, his power and especially his feet...are already NFL caliber. The NFL has every reason to believe that Joe Staley will get better....and that isn't always true about every prospect. That is what puts him over the top as worthy of a top 10 pick.

And that is why I do not believe anyone is getting ahead of themselves if they think Miami could draft him at #9.


Then I cant wait till we draft him and it gets proven that he is overrated. He will require one-two years to bulk up and get aquainted with the NFL's best. This isnt Central Michigan.

I remember you saying Max Starx was essentially overrated and a bust and then he starts right away for the Steelers. So I think alot of people are just going ga ga over Staley and his upside. I dont care about work out in shorts. When the real deal is out there for everyone to see. They will see the mistakes. Then reality hits and people start to change their minds. Right now, its all based on upside and ability but no proof that he can do the job right away at LT. That is what a #9 pick requires.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 06:50 AM
A LT faces far more speed rushers than a bull type rusher...most DE's are lighter...so that they can try to get a step on the LT....Speed is far more important...but it doesn't hurt to be stronger also. Strength can be acquired...but unless your born with the speed and agility...you may never gain it.

If your looking for a run blocking LT...go with Brown...if your looking for a pass protector...go with Staley.



If your looking for a guy who shuts people down instantly, whether run or pass blocking, you go with Brown. If your looking for upside with a guy who wows scouts and gets all the attention from a guy who showed stuff in shorts and with no real analytical video proof that this guy is capable of taking on the best right away, then you go with Staley. If we pick Staley at 9, The Miami Dolphins will suck once again. Take it to the bank.

dan the fin
04-18-2007, 10:18 AM
If your looking for a guy who shuts people down instantly, whether run or pass blocking, you go with Brown. If your looking for upside with a guy who wows scouts and gets all the attention from a guy who showed stuff in shorts and with no real analytical video proof that this guy is capable of taking on the best right away, then you go with Staley. If we pick Staley at 9, The Miami Dolphins will suck once again. Take it to the bank.

How is Brown a shutdown LT, cause my definition of that is a guy like Jones or Pace. And Brown could not even dominate the college level like that. So how in the world can he come in right a way and shut people down instantly. If we pick Staley or Brown we made a mistake. Brown is the same as Staley, at the end of the season he was not rated near as high as he is now. He had a good Sr. Bowl and the lack of any other elite LT have caused him to rise. Go back and watch his season games he will very rarely dominate any games, he will be very good. But that is the college level, he could not even make first team All conference. Now explain to me how all of a sudden he will become this dominate LT in the pros, if he did not do it in college.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 10:44 AM
Wisconsin OT Joe Thomas has revealed that during his visit with the Detroit Lions the team told him that they would play him at either left guard or right tackle if they used their pick on him in the upcoming Draft.

How about them apples...:D

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Then I cant wait till we draft him and it gets proven that he is overrated. He will require one-two years to bulk up and get aquainted with the NFL's best. This isnt Central Michigan.

I remember you saying Max Starx was essentially overrated and a bust and then he starts right away for the Steelers. So I think alot of people are just going ga ga over Staley and his upside. I dont care about work out in shorts. When the real deal is out there for everyone to see. They will see the mistakes. Then reality hits and people start to change their minds. Right now, its all based on upside and ability but no proof that he can do the job right away at LT. That is what a #9 pick requires.

The only think I've ever said about Starks was very recently, when I have said that he is probably the least athletic among the decent left tackles out there (in relation to Levi Brown) and even the Steelers don't view him as a long term solution at the position.

But go on, keep talking out your arse. I'm sure everyone enjoys it.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:01 AM
Wisconsin OT Joe Thomas has revealed that during his visit with the Detroit Lions the team told him that they would play him at either left guard or right tackle if they used their pick on him in the upcoming Draft.

How about them apples...:D




How about them apples indeed!

jim1
04-18-2007, 11:03 AM
Wisconsin OT Joe Thomas has revealed that during his visit with the Detroit Lions the team told him that they would play him at either left guard or right tackle if they used their pick on him in the upcoming Draft.

How about them apples...:D





They have Jeff Backus at left tackle, no shocker there. And that's probably the reason that the Lions will pass and Thomas will slide to the Cardinals at #5.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:04 AM
Hey Pete, do you have a source on that? There is someone I want to send that to re: Joe Thomas..

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:04 AM
They have Jeff Backus at left tackle, no shocker there. And that's probably the reason that the Lions will pass and Thomas will slide to the Cardinals at #5.

Yes but if you don't think Joe Thomas is a better left tackle than even Jeff Backus, then there is something wrong with Thomas...because Backus is not ideal by any means.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 11:09 AM
Hey Pete, do you have a source on that? There is someone I want to send that to re: Joe Thomas..

http://www.eastcoastsportsnews.com/2007draft.html

Just scroll down to the news part.

jim1
04-18-2007, 11:17 AM
Five different people can look at the same film and see five different things. Everyone can watch something and make observations, but not everyone can know what they are seeing.

What I'll say about the observations such as the one you listed is that I usually don't disagree with them. That one did a particularly good job of encompassing what Staley does well and what he does not do so well.

But where they often get mixed up is when they get done making all these observations, listing what Staley does well and does not do well, they attempt to contextualize that strength/weakness profile into a draft value.

It's a leap, and it's a different process than simply evaluating a guy's strengths and weaknesses on film.

The way I see it the guy is going to be a good pass protector in the NFL for many years on the left side of the line. If he's not a vicious run blocker right now, eventually he could be...especially with the way he has shown an aptitude for gaining weight and strength without losing any speed whatsoever.

Walter Jones was not a good run blocker when he came out. He developed into one over the second half of his career. Richmond Webb was NEVER a good run blocker until probably his last year or two as a pro. Yet these guys were and always have been PREMIUM quality left tackles at the NFL level and extraordinarily valuable cogs.

Because that is what a left tackle is. He is a pass protector. That is his job. Run blocking is so far secondary to it that I can't even tell you.

What I say about Staley is he's faced some good programs out there. He faced Michigan. He faced Boston College, Kentucky, Ameer Ismail...he faced Dan Bazuin in practice every day. He played in a 66% passing offense that saw defensive ends of every opponent, from Michigan to Western Michigan, pinning their ears back and speed rushing all the time and yet, depending on which stat source you listen to, he may have only given one ONE sack during his final two years as a left tackle in this passing offense. There is disagreement here, I know...one stat source used by NFL Draft Scout says that he let up 5 sacks but I'm not sure how much I believe it, as his own school says 1 sack allowed over those final two years and that was the stat that had been widely printed in several different sources. I believe Draft Scout's stat source may have attributed several zone blocking miscommunication errors at Staley's feet that the Central Michigan staff did not lay at his feet.

Anyway...so yeah. You ask me what I want in a LT and I say a guy that is going to be able to lock out speed rushers, step up and meet them at the line, maximize pocket space, keep his pad level low, and make sure that passer's jersey stays clean the whole game.

Do I care as much that his drive blocking leaves something to be desired? No, because drive blocking is NOT where a franchise left tackle derives his value from. What is encouraging in this area is how many people have particularly noted how nasty and willing Joe Staley is in this area...Kirwan comparing him to a young Jon Runyan and others noting his enthusiasm for run blocking. That ALREADY puts him above a bunch of those premium left tackles that were one dimensional pass protectors during their time, such as Richmond Webb....in the area of run blocking. It mean the only thing that needs to catch up for him to be a premium guy in both areas, is his body...a body and work ethic that already showed the REMARKABLE ability to gain 70 pounds of muscle without losing any speed whatsoever.

I'm not betting against him, that's for damn sure. I'd rather bet on him.

I'm not betting against him, either. I'm just not gambling on him at #9. By your logic why not take Alan Barbre at #40? If we pass on Brown at #9, I'd rather take Doug Free with the late 2nd pick or the 3rd. That would be more of a value pick with tremendous upside.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:18 AM
Thank ya much.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 11:20 AM
Thank ya much.

No problem....always happy to be a friend.:D

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:27 AM
I'm not betting against him, either. I'm just not gambling on him at #9. By your logic why not take Alan Barbre at #40? If we pass on Brown at #9, I'd rather take Doug Free with the late 2nd pick or the 3rd. That would be more of a value pick with tremendous upside.

That's sort of like saying why take Calvin Johnson with the #1 pick when you could just trade for Matt Jones.

Barbre is a guy I like (as a guard prospect) but where people complain about Joe Staley's experience against good teams, Allan Barbre literally has none. Staley has played good teams, and done well when he played them. He practiced at the Senior Bowl, and did well against the top senior DEs in the country.

Specifically, Barbre is only 6'4" even, with 33 inch arms. He's not cut out for tackle. He doesn't have the frame for it. And his level of competition at Missouri Southern State doesn't even compare with the DREGS that Central Michigan faced...let alone with Central Michigan's out of conference schedule against the likes of Boston College, Kentucky, Michigan, and Penn State.

And I like Doug Free, I've been plain in my theory that when all is said and done he could be the best LT in the draft, but when you're looking at Joe Staley vs. Doug Free you're looking at a guy that has walked the walk vs. a guy that has talked the talk. When Free has gone up against top notch speed rushers, he has struggled. He struggled mightily against Vernon Gholston and Ohio State (though he suffered a stress fracture during the game at some point), and he struggled mightily at the end of the year against Tommy Blake and TCU. Do I think that his problems there could be corrected by coaching? Yeah, that's the feeling I've got. But that's thin, even I recognize that's thin.

jim1
04-18-2007, 11:31 AM
Yes but if you don't think Joe Thomas is a better left tackle than even Jeff Backus, then there is something wrong with Thomas...because Backus is not ideal by any means.

They have a solid LT in Backus. So they might start out Thomas at guart or right tackle if they draft him, big deal. I don't expect them to take him, anyway. Why pass on Peterson or CJ, and apparently they're big fans of Gaines Adams. My best guess is that Thomas slides to the Cardinals at #5.

jim1
04-18-2007, 11:46 AM
That's sort of like saying why take Calvin Johnson with the #1 pick when you could just trade for Matt Jones.

Barbre is a guy I like (as a guard prospect) but where people complain about Joe Staley's experience against good teams, Allan Barbre literally has none. Staley has played good teams, and done well when he played them. He practiced at the Senior Bowl, and did well against the top senior DEs in the country.

Specifically, Barbre is only 6'4" even, with 33 inch arms. He's not cut out for tackle. He doesn't have the frame for it. And his level of competition at Missouri Southern State doesn't even compare with the DREGS that Central Michigan faced...let alone with Central Michigan's out of conference schedule against the likes of Boston College, Kentucky, Michigan, and Penn State.

And I like Doug Free, I've been plain in my theory that when all is said and done he could be the best LT in the draft, but when you're looking at Joe Staley vs. Doug Free you're looking at a guy that has walked the walk vs. a guy that has talked the talk. When Free has gone up against top notch speed rushers, he has struggled. He struggled mightily against Vernon Gholston and Ohio State (though he suffered a stress fracture during the game at some point), and he struggled mightily at the end of the year against Tommy Blake and TCU. Do I think that his problems there could be corrected by coaching? Yeah, that's the feeling I've got. But that's thin, even I recognize that's thin.

You lost me at the first sentence. CJ is considered one of the best, safest elite prospects in quite some time. And you compare him to Staley in your example. Come back down to earth, please, take a deep breath. Staley has walked the walk? At CMU? It's just a lousy comparison, Staley to CJ, even in the Barbre context that you were using. You're projecting greatness for Staley, and you're one of many of late.

You made a comment earlier about the value of Staley rising, and none of us having access to draft boards and really knowing what teams are thinking. That's kind of stating the obvious. But guys on this site, also Mel Kiper and a lot of the online mocks have Staley shooting up in the last 2-3 weeks. I'll assume that it's due to his pro day, not sure about that. I don't know- I like Staley, I mentioned him months ago on this site when I saw his jaw dropping 40 - time. I just don't like him at #9.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 11:47 AM
They have a solid LT in Backus. So they might start out Thomas at guart or right tackle if they draft him, big deal. I don't expect them to take him, anyway. Why pass on Peterson or CJ, and apparently they're big fans of Gaines Adams. My best guess is that Thomas slides to the Cardinals at #5.

Possibly even further. PFW's sources say that the Cards don't like Thomas, they may even like Levi Brown more...so Thomas could fall all the way to #8 to the Falcons.

But that's a far cry from the top tackle prospect that everyone has been claiming him to be.

Find me one draftnik that a month ago would have expected that Joe Thomas would start at left guard while Backus started at left tackle, instead of the other way around.

jim1
04-18-2007, 11:56 AM
Possibly even further. PFW's sources say that the Cards don't like Thomas, they may even like Levi Brown more...so Thomas could fall all the way to #8 to the Falcons.

But that's a far cry from the top tackle prospect that everyone has been claiming him to be.

Find me one draftnik that a month ago would have expected that Joe Thomas would start at left guard while Backus started at left tackle, instead of the other way around.

So what changed so drastically about Thomas in a month? This happens all the time, late risers and fallers on the draft board. The whole Mike Mamula thing.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 12:01 PM
So what changed so drastically about Thomas in a month? This happens all the time, late risers and fallers on the draft board. The whole Mike Mamula thing.

Discounting the countless times guys have risen or sunk on draft boards for very good reason? You say the whole Mike Mamula thing, I say the whole Levi Jones/Antajj Hawthorne thing. Or perhaps the Aaron Rodgers thing?

finfan54
04-18-2007, 12:05 PM
I'm not high on Joe Staley. I watched the senior bowl where he went against DE Jay Moore. Moore had 2 sacks and 2 QB pressures. One of those pressures forced the QB to fumble and the other an incompletion. Staley looked terrible.



Yes yes yes yes yes. Thank U. I guess Im not blind after all.


And CK, you are making a mountain out of browns combine numbers. Dont all of you be combine fools. I dont care if my LT ran a 5.4 in the forty. All I care about is his guy being styfled. Thats Levi Brown. Obviously, lots of experts agree with this.


His combine #'s wont mean a thing.

jim1
04-18-2007, 12:08 PM
Discounting the countless times guys have risen or sunk on draft boards for very good reason? You say the whole Mike Mamula thing, I say the whole Levi Jones/Antajj Hawthorne thing. Or perhaps the Aaron Rodgers thing?

So what is the very good reason for the late Staley rise? He's been talked about since ripping off a 4.75 40 as a junior. Some say 4.7 flat. I don't think that his arm length increased by any great measure lately, either. So why has it taken so long for him to be considered top 10 material, which from what I've seen has only been the last 2-3 weeks?

And what changed about Thomas? What revelations occurred in the last 2 weeks for this potential slide to take place? They stopped playing college football months ago, didn't they? Didn't Thomas have a great pro day workout? I would take Thomas over Staley in a heartbeat, but that's just my opinion.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 12:12 PM
Changing the subject....Boomer/CK or anyone that wants to join in....what if Mueller keeps to his word and selects the BPA at 9....what if that player is Peterson...would he think he could pull another Ricky deal....by dealing Ronnie next year for picks...to acquire a better QB in next years draft? There's a few QB's coming out in next years draft that I would take over either Russell or Quinn...in a heart beat....it worked once....could he believe he could do it again? Lets remember that a GM not only looks at this year but a couple years out...and it's going to take a couple years to rebuild the Dolphins.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 12:19 PM
So what is the very good reason for the late Staley rise? He's been talked about since ripping off a 4.75 40 as a junior. Some say 4.7 flat. I don't think that his arm length increased by any great measure lately, either. So why has it taken so long for him to be considered top 10 material, which from what I've seen has only been the last 2-3 weeks?

And what changed about Thomas? What revelations occurred in the last 2 weeks for this potential slide to take place? They stopped playing college football months ago, didn't they? Didn't Thomas have a great pro day workout? I would take Thomas over Staley in a heartbeat, but that's just my opinion.

If a pro day could not improve a guy's draft stock, why would they bother having them?

Staley was a high second round pick before the Senior Bowl and walked out of the Senior Bowl a consensus solid first round pick, according to multiple scouts that spoke with TFY.

He went from a solid first rounder to a potential #9 overall pick at his pro day.

What exactly is wrong with that progression? The scouts didn't have enough tape of him going up against good DEs for their liking prior to the Senior Bowl, at the Senior Bowl they got that tape. Then, they didn't know if the legends about his mobility and running skills were true, and they found out that they were alarmingly true.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 12:23 PM
Five different people can look at the same film and see five different things. Everyone can watch something and make observations, but not everyone can know what they are seeing.

What I'll say about the observations such as the one you listed is that I usually don't disagree with them. That one did a particularly good job of encompassing what Staley does well and what he does not do so well.

But where they often get mixed up is when they get done making all these observations, listing what Staley does well and does not do well, they attempt to contextualize that strength/weakness profile into a draft value.

It's a leap, and it's a different process than simply evaluating a guy's strengths and weaknesses on film.

The way I see it the guy is going to be a good pass protector in the NFL for many years on the left side of the line. If he's not a vicious run blocker right now, eventually he could be...especially with the way he has shown an aptitude for gaining weight and strength without losing any speed whatsoever.

Walter Jones was not a good run blocker when he came out. He developed into one over the second half of his career. Richmond Webb was NEVER a good run blocker until probably his last year or two as a pro. Yet these guys were and always have been PREMIUM quality left tackles at the NFL level and extraordinarily valuable cogs.

Because that is what a left tackle is. He is a pass protector. That is his job. Run blocking is so far secondary to it that I can't even tell you.

What I say about Staley is he's faced some good programs out there. He faced Michigan. He faced Boston College, Kentucky, Ameer Ismail...he faced Dan Bazuin in practice every day. He played in a 66% passing offense that saw defensive ends of every opponent, from Michigan to Western Michigan, pinning their ears back and speed rushing all the time and yet, depending on which stat source you listen to, he may have only given one ONE sack during his final two years as a left tackle in this passing offense. There is disagreement here, I know...one stat source used by NFL Draft Scout says that he let up 5 sacks but I'm not sure how much I believe it, as his own school says 1 sack allowed over those final two years and that was the stat that had been widely printed in several different sources. I believe Draft Scout's stat source may have attributed several zone blocking miscommunication errors at Staley's feet that the Central Michigan staff did not lay at his feet.

Anyway...so yeah. You ask me what I want in a LT and I say a guy that is going to be able to lock out speed rushers, step up and meet them at the line, maximize pocket space, keep his pad level low, and make sure that passer's jersey stays clean the whole game.

Do I care as much that his drive blocking leaves something to be desired? No, because drive blocking is NOT where a franchise left tackle derives his value from. What is encouraging in this area is how many people have particularly noted how nasty and willing Joe Staley is in this area...Kirwan comparing him to a young Jon Runyan and others noting his enthusiasm for run blocking. That ALREADY puts him above a bunch of those premium left tackles that were one dimensional pass protectors during their time, such as Richmond Webb....in the area of run blocking. It mean the only thing that needs to catch up for him to be a premium guy in both areas, is his body...a body and work ethic that already showed the REMARKABLE ability to gain 70 pounds of muscle without losing any speed whatsoever.

I'm not betting against him, that's for damn sure. I'd rather bet on him.


CK, I have read alot of your posts here and I agree with alot that you say. In the end, I think you are selling stock on Joe Staley and selling off Levi Brown based on some combine numbers and Staley's "huge upside". Which is a bit exagerrated IMO. Can he put on some more weight and be tougher? Sure. How long will that be? If we end up with Staley at 9, then its just not good management by Mueller and co. If we trade down and get him, thats another story, but Staley still has something to prove and yes, he will have to develop at the next level for a certain amount of time before he will start at LT. Brown on the other hand, can start and has played the position for four years against tough competition. Everyone knows once he locks on your done and I believe Brown could do this to JT in practice. Will JT burn him every once in a while? Of course, he burns everybody, but Browns combine numbers only show he is slow in sprints. so what? who cares? Do you think macintosh can run a good 40 time? I dont. I dont care.

And having good feet is a bit overrated IMO at LT like the strong arm is to the QB. Levi Brown is quick and athletic enough by far, that is not his problem. His problem is he falls asleep after a while after dominating for long periods. The speed rush is ussually where it happens. Doesnt mean he cant handle speed rushers. He comes out of his stance just fine and if he gets his hands on your chest, your pretty much not going anywheres. That is why he is projected as top ten.

ckparrothead
04-18-2007, 12:25 PM
Changing the subject....Boomer/CK or anyone that wants to join in....what if Mueller keeps to his word and selects the BPA at 9....what if that player is Peterson...would he think he could pull another Ricky deal....by dealing Ronnie next year for picks...to acquire a better QB in next years draft? There's a few QB's coming out in next years draft that I would take over either Russell or Quinn...in a heart beat....it worked once....could he believe he could do it again? Lets remember that a GM not only looks at this year but a couple years out...and it's going to take a couple years to rebuild the Dolphins.

Taking Peterson would put Miami in a position of power because everyone would know that Miami has hold of a player that they want to trade but that everyone wants. You could not only think of trading Ronnie but you could trade Peterson. Peterson would be very valuable at that point because as the #9 pick he'll be getting half as much money for the next 6 years as he would had he gone where everyone thinks he should go in the top 5.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 12:31 PM
If a pro day could not improve a guy's draft stock, why would they bother having them?

Staley was a high second round pick before the Senior Bowl and walked out of the Senior Bowl a consensus solid first round pick, according to multiple scouts that spoke with TFY.

He went from a solid first rounder to a potential #9 overall pick at his pro day.

What exactly is wrong with that progression? The scouts didn't have enough tape of him going up against good DEs for their liking prior to the Senior Bowl, at the Senior Bowl they got that tape. Then, they didn't know if the legends about his mobility and running skills were true, and they found out that they were alarmingly true.


yes but lets keep this in prospective shall we? LT is a much coveted and needed position throughout the league. Even teams who have good ones are thinking about the future at this position. The NY Giants love Staley, but they also like Brown, and probably better but they know the guy just wont be there at 20, so they start to the chatter on Staley. Houck loves guys like Staley so he is talking about him. Problem is we need a fix right now, not next year and three years from now. The Patriots also talked about Staley, cus they have two first rounders and can afford to spend some time with this guy, plus Brady will make Staleys job easier by simply getting rid of the ball in .025 seconds.

Staleys stock is rising based on what scouts/coaches think he can be two three years from now, not September, and if they seriously say he will start right away, its because they have a system that they can cover up his mistakes with.

Back to Brown, We are a run team first, not a team that passes out of the shotgun 66% of the time. We also will be using the FB to block. Brown simply is a better real LT to start right away and really, he fits what we will be doing more. Not that Staley wont or eventually wont, but Brown has the Pure LT experience and has tons more power. And yes, LT requires Power.

MastR_EvaluatoR
04-18-2007, 12:33 PM
And having good feet is a bit overrated IMO .

That is a ridiculous thing to say.. Of all the positions on the offensive line, good feet is most important at left tackle..

It's no wonder so many experts have pegged Levi Brown to be a right tackle, not a left tackle.. If he had good feet, experts wouldn't be pegging him as a RT in the NFL..

The same reason why Carey stinks at left tackle is because of his average feet.. Like Brown, if Carey had good feet he'd be Miami's starting left tackle now..

finfan54
04-18-2007, 12:57 PM
That is a ridiculous thing to say.. Of all the positions on the offensive line, good feet is most important at left tackle..

It's no wonder so many experts have pegged Levi Brown to be a right tackle, not a left tackle.. If he had good feet, experts wouldn't be pegging him as a RT in the NFL..

The same reason why Carey stinks at left tackle is because of his average feet.. Like Brown, if Carey had good feet he'd be Miami's starting left tackle now..



But what is good feet without having the power to stand your guy up and stuff him? Not much. Good feet required, but its overrated and its not the say all to the position. That is my point.

jim1
04-18-2007, 01:05 PM
If a pro day could not improve a guy's draft stock, why would they bother having them?

Staley was a high second round pick before the Senior Bowl and walked out of the Senior Bowl a consensus solid first round pick, according to multiple scouts that spoke with TFY.

He went from a solid first rounder to a potential #9 overall pick at his pro day.

What exactly is wrong with that progression? The scouts didn't have enough tape of him going up against good DEs for their liking prior to the Senior Bowl, at the Senior Bowl they got that tape. Then, they didn't know if the legends about his mobility and running skills were true, and they found out that they were alarmingly true.

I'm just saying that Staley's athleticism wasn't an unknown entity or great surprise:

CMU Junior Pro Day Results http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/04/297212-1.jpg
Joe Staley

By CMU Sports Information (javascript:location.href='http://search.scout.com/a.z?s=340&p=4&c=1&search=1&sskey=%22' + escape('CMU Sports Information') + '%22&sssiteid=340';)

Posted Mar 1, 2006

MOUNT PLEASANT - With the 2006 NFL Draft still two months away, the Central Michigan University football players eligible for the 2007 draft showcased their wares on March 1.

Thirteen seniors-to-be on the Central Michigan (http://centralmichigan.scout.com/) University roster worked out at the Indoor Athletic Complex as part of the Chippewas' Junior Pro Day and, as expected, a couple of familiar names stole the show.

Offensive tackle Joe Staley (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=340&p=8&c=1&nid=2062498) checked in at 6-foot-5, 300 pounds, then was timed at 4.70 seconds in the 40-yard dash. Staley's 40-yard time was faster than the times posted by the 42 offensive linemen who ran at the NFL Scouting Combine last week. He was also clocked faster than nine of 21 quarterbacks who ran at the combine.

Staley, who also performed 28 repetitions of 225 pounds on the bench press, is entering his second season as the Chippewas' starting left tackle. Fresh off a prep career that saw him set school records on the track in the 200m (21.9), 4x100m relay (42.5) and 4x200m relay (1:27), Staley enrolled at CMU in 2003 as a 230-pound tight end. He caught 11 passes for 130 yards and a score as a freshman, then moved to right tackle during spring drills. He started all 11 games at right tackle in 2004 and all 11 contests at left tackle in 2005.

http://centralmichigan.scout.com/2/504254.html

Note the date of the article.

Yes, Staley had a great Senior Bowl, but who was the best OT there?

Offensive Tackles: The top prospect in this years game along the offensive line was Levi Brown of Penn St. and he did a very nice job in Mobile as he worked hard and got better with each practice. In fact, Brown probably secured his lofty ranking and may have even worked his way into the Top 15 overall picks. Joe Staley of Central Michigan also did a nice job, showing great power and phenomenal feet but Tony Ugoh of Arkansas did not live up to his advanced billing and missed a big opportunity to move up draft boards. Arron Sears of Tennessee did a solid job but appears better suited to play inside at guard in the NFL while James Marten of Boston College really surprised a lot of people with his nasty demeanor and killer instinct on the field. Ryan Harris of Notre Dame did not have a good week however and will more than likely see his draft stock drop as a result of that lackluster showing.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/seniorbowl/reports/review.html

You prefer Staley because of his outstanding athleticism, arm length, etc. There's nothing wrong with that- he may turn out to be the best pass blocker of the lot. But for my money, if I'm picking, I'm going:

1 Joe Thomas

2 Levi Brown

3 Joe Staley

Let's just agree to disagree.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 01:07 PM
But what is good feet without having the power to stand your guy up and stuff him? Not much. Good feet required, but its overrated and its not the say all to the position. That is my point.

And I am tired of hearing you say "so many experts". Please list them because I have not seen that many experts say he is not athletic. Quite contrary, he is said to be very athletic for such a big guy. Athletic in the LT sense, not WR, QB, or TE sense.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 01:12 PM
Offensive tackle Joe Staley checked in at 6-foot-5, 300 pounds, then was timed at 4.70 seconds in the 40-yard dash. Staley's 40-yard time was faster than the times posted by the 42 offensive linemen who ran at the NFL Scouting Combine last week. He was also clocked faster than nine of 21 quarterbacks who ran at the combine.

Staley, who also performed 28 repetitions of 225 pounds on the bench press, is entering his second season as the Chippewas' starting left tackle. Fresh off a prep career that saw him set school records on the track in the 200m (21.9), 4x100m relay (42.5) and 4x200m relay (1:27), Staley enrolled at CMU in 2003 as a 230-pound tight end. He caught 11 passes for 130 yards and a score as a freshman, then moved to right tackle during spring drills. He started all 11 games at right tackle in 2004 and all 11 contests at left tackle in 2005.

Perhaps we should get Staley to be our TE?

fishypete
04-18-2007, 01:13 PM
I'm just saying that Staley's athleticism wasn't an unknown entity or great surprise:

CMU Junior Pro Day Results http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/29/297212.jpg
Joe Staley

By CMU Sports Information (http://javascript<b></b>:location.href='http://search.scout.com/a.z?s=340&p=4&c=1&search=1&sskey=%22' + escape('CMU Sports Information') + '%22&sssiteid=340';)

Posted Mar 1, 2006

MOUNT PLEASANT - With the 2006 NFL Draft still two months away, the Central Michigan University football players eligible for the 2007 draft showcased their wares on March 1.

Thirteen seniors-to-be on the Central Michigan (http://centralmichigan.scout.com/) University roster worked out at the Indoor Athletic Complex as part of the Chippewas' Junior Pro Day and, as expected, a couple of familiar names stole the show.

Offensive tackle Joe Staley (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=340&p=8&c=1&nid=2062498) checked in at 6-foot-5, 300 pounds, then was timed at 4.70 seconds in the 40-yard dash. Staley's 40-yard time was faster than the times posted by the 42 offensive linemen who ran at the NFL Scouting Combine last week. He was also clocked faster than nine of 21 quarterbacks who ran at the combine.

Staley, who also performed 28 repetitions of 225 pounds on the bench press, is entering his second season as the Chippewas' starting left tackle. Fresh off a prep career that saw him set school records on the track in the 200m (21.9), 4x100m relay (42.5) and 4x200m relay (1:27), Staley enrolled at CMU in 2003 as a 230-pound tight end. He caught 11 passes for 130 yards and a score as a freshman, then moved to right tackle during spring drills. He started all 11 games at right tackle in 2004 and all 11 contests at left tackle in 2005.

http://centralmichigan.scout.com/2/504254.html

Note the date of the article.

Yes, Staley had a great Senior Bowl, but who was the best OT there?

Offensive Tackles: The top prospect in this years game along the offensive line was Levi Brown of Penn St. and he did a very nice job in Mobile as he worked hard and got better with each practice. In fact, Brown probably secured his lofty ranking and may have even worked his way into the Top 15 overall picks. Joe Staley of Central Michigan also did a nice job, showing great power and phenomenal feet but Tony Ugoh of Arkansas did not live up to his advanced billing and missed a big opportunity to move up draft boards. Arron Sears of Tennessee did a solid job but appears better suited to play inside at guard in the NFL while James Marten of Boston College really surprised a lot of people with his nasty demeanor and killer instinct on the field. Ryan Harris of Notre Dame did not have a good week however and will more than likely see his draft stock drop as a result of that lackluster showing.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/seniorbowl/reports/review.html

You prefer Staley because of his outstanding athleticism, arm length, etc. There's nothing wrong with that- he may turn out to be the best pass blocker of the lot. But for my money, if I'm picking, I'm going:

1 Joe Thomas

2 Levi Brown

3 Joe Staley

Let's just agree to disagree.


I guess you could say it's all in the eye of the beholder;

Senior Bowl South Team Wednesday Practice Report: One of the players I was most excited to see line up in the Senior Bowl was Central Michigan's Joe Staley. Despite dramatically stepping up his level of competition, Staley has held up well, especially in pass protection, this week. Staley has good quickness out of his stance and keeps his feet moving. His balance and overall athleticism keep him in front of defenders. While he uses his hands well, Staley will have to continue to get stronger to reach his potential, but he solidified his position this week among the draft's better left tackle prospects.

jim1
04-18-2007, 01:14 PM
If a pro day could not improve a guy's draft stock, why would they bother having them?

Staley was a high second round pick before the Senior Bowl and walked out of the Senior Bowl a consensus solid first round pick, according to multiple scouts that spoke with TFY.

He went from a solid first rounder to a potential #9 overall pick at his pro day.

What exactly is wrong with that progression? The scouts didn't have enough tape of him going up against good DEs for their liking prior to the Senior Bowl, at the Senior Bowl they got that tape. Then, they didn't know if the legends about his mobility and running skills were true, and they found out that they were alarmingly true.

I'm just saying that Staley's athleticism wasn't an unknown entity or great surprise:

CMU Junior Pro Day Results http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2007/04/297212-1.jpg
Joe Staley

By CMU Sports Information (javascript:location.href='http://search.scout.com/a.z?s=340&p=4&c=1&search=1&sskey=%22' + escape('CMU Sports Information') + '%22&sssiteid=340';)

Posted Mar 1, 2006

MOUNT PLEASANT - With the 2006 NFL Draft still two months away, the Central Michigan University football players eligible for the 2007 draft showcased their wares on March 1.

Thirteen seniors-to-be on the Central Michigan (http://centralmichigan.scout.com/) University roster worked out at the Indoor Athletic Complex as part of the Chippewas' Junior Pro Day and, as expected, a couple of familiar names stole the show.

Offensive tackle Joe Staley (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=340&p=8&c=1&nid=2062498) checked in at 6-foot-5, 300 pounds, then was timed at 4.70 seconds in the 40-yard dash. Staley's 40-yard time was faster than the times posted by the 42 offensive linemen who ran at the NFL Scouting Combine last week. He was also clocked faster than nine of 21 quarterbacks who ran at the combine.

Staley, who also performed 28 repetitions of 225 pounds on the bench press, is entering his second season as the Chippewas' starting left tackle. Fresh off a prep career that saw him set school records on the track in the 200m (21.9), 4x100m relay (42.5) and 4x200m relay (1:27), Staley enrolled at CMU in 2003 as a 230-pound tight end. He caught 11 passes for 130 yards and a score as a freshman, then moved to right tackle during spring drills. He started all 11 games at right tackle in 2004 and all 11 contests at left tackle in 2005.

http://centralmichigan.scout.com/2/504254.html

Note the date of the article.

Yes, Staley had a great Senior Bowl, but who was the best OT there?

Offensive Tackles: The top prospect in this years game along the offensive line was Levi Brown of Penn St. and he did a very nice job in Mobile as he worked hard and got better with each practice. In fact, Brown probably secured his lofty ranking and may have even worked his way into the Top 15 overall picks. Joe Staley of Central Michigan also did a nice job, showing great power and phenomenal feet but Tony Ugoh of Arkansas did not live up to his advanced billing and missed a big opportunity to move up draft boards. Arron Sears of Tennessee did a solid job but appears better suited to play inside at guard in the NFL while James Marten of Boston College really surprised a lot of people with his nasty demeanor and killer instinct on the field. Ryan Harris of Notre Dame did not have a good week however and will more than likely see his draft stock drop as a result of that lackluster showing.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/seniorbowl/reports/review.html

You prefer Staley because of his outstanding athleticism, arm length, etc. There's nothing wrong with that- he may turn out to be the best pass blocker of the lot. But for my money, if I'm picking, I'm going:

1 Joe Thomas

2 Levi Brown

3 Joe Staley

Let's just agree to disagree.

fishypete
04-18-2007, 01:17 PM
Staley has gotten national attention for his development at CMU. He entered school as a 225-pound tight end and grew into an offensive tackle. He is up to 305 pounds, on a 6-foot-6 frame. He probably needs more development than Thomas and Brown. Both faced consistently tougher competition from playing at Big Ten schools. There is more to playing offensive tackle than running a fast time in the 40-yard dash, but Staley's speed and quickness are unusual for an offensive tackle. Staley is the only other tackle in this year's draft who was timed in less than 4.90. Running a time less than 5.0 is rare for a top tackle prospect. Thomas was timed in 4.92 seconds and Brown in 5.40 at the Combine. Allen Barbre, a late-round prospect from Missouri Southern State, was timed in 4.84 seconds. In the 2006 draft, only Eric Winston of Miami (Fla.) broke five seconds (4.94). D.Brickashaw Ferguson of Virginia, drafted fourth overall by the Jets, was timed in 5.04. In 2005, Alex Barron of Florida State did 4.82, and Khalif Barnes of Washington did 4.92. In 2004, Robert Gallery of Iowa, drafted second overall by the Raiders, was timed in 4.98. And in 2003, Jon Stinchcomb of Georgia leaned his eyebrows across the finish line in time to register a 4.99. The draft begins April 28, and Staley's calendar is filing up. Next week, he has personal interviews with the Jets, Patriots and Chiefs. The Lions expressed an interest in Staley at the Combine. Line coach Jim Colletto and his assistant, Mike Barry, were at Staley's workout. Staley is enjoying the process. It's like being recruited. This is awesome, he said, "You only get to go through this once in your lifetime". - Mike O'Hara, Detroit News

dlockz
04-18-2007, 01:25 PM
That is a ridiculous thing to say.. Of all the positions on the offensive line, good feet is most important at left tackle..

It's no wonder so many experts have pegged Levi Brown to be a right tackle, not a left tackle.. If he had good feet, experts wouldn't be pegging him as a RT in the NFL..

The same reason why Carey stinks at left tackle is because of his average feet.. Like Brown, if Carey had good feet he'd be Miami's starting left tackle now..


I dont know I have heard very good things about Brown's feet, this is just one of the many examples I have seen. I think too many are looking at 40 time on a position thet never runs a 40 in the game. He is by far the strongest lineman and moves very well in the real game.

For a big player, Brown is very nimble on his feet, as he has the loose hips to redirect and shows good control changing direction...Even when he gets high in his stance, he has the knee bend to slide laterally...When his head is in the game, Brown shuffles his feet and gets in front of the defender with good urgency...With his upper body strength, nimble feet and suddenness getting his hands up, he does a great job of neutralizing the defender...Flashes a powerful punch and easily contains edge rushers once he locks on to his target...If he connects, he will generally control his opponent until the whistle...The thing you see on film is his ability to roll his hips and explode off the line...Shows good hip and knee bend to deliver good lower body power off the ball...Very good at caving defenders once he lets his body go and he is quite effective at turning and sealing...Has the upper body power to combat stunts and blitzes...Edge rushers are quickly neutralized once Brown gets his paws on them...Shows very good patience, especially in his anchor, letting the defender come to him rather than overextend (will lunge some working into the second level, though)...Good at extending his arms and generating a hand punch that consistently jolts the defender...Has that long wingspan to lock out, gain placement and sustain...Can change directions to counter throughout the play, doing a nice job of getting out on the edge...Finds the games up front and does a nice job working in combination with his guards to pick up the blitz or switch off on stunts.

dan the fin
04-18-2007, 02:48 PM
I really not High on Staley or Brown, cause neither player could dominate on the college level so I really don't see them doing it in the NFL. Look at most the guys that became dominate in the NFL when it comes to LT's, when they were in college most of them only gave up a few sacks for their whole college career. Guys like Pace, Jones, Ogden, Boseilly, and even McNeill were very dominate in college and gave up little to no sacks. Now this not true of all but a pretty good indication if they will be great or not.
I won't comment on Staley cause I have not seen him play much at all. But Brown was very good to great college LT, but he tends not to dominate his opponent at all. He will struggle at times to pick up a fast DE that lines up to his outside. Brown is very strong and almost imposable to straight up bull rush. Once he gets u close and latches on he is tough to beat. But like I said he will get beat by quick DE's, he seems to me that he is not very quick to slide out and pick up top speed rushers. Against the top two defenses that Brown Faced this year OSU and Mich. his men accounted for 12 tackles, 4 TFL, 3 sacks.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 03:02 PM
I really not High on Staley or Brown, cause neither player could dominate on the college level so I really don't see them doing it in the NFL. Look at most the guys that became dominate in the NFL when it comes to LT's, when they were in college most of them only gave up a few sacks for their whole college career. Guys like Pace, Jones, Ogden, Boseilly, and even McNeill were very dominate in college and gave up little to no sacks. Now this not true of all but a pretty good indication if they will be great or not.
I won't comment on Staley cause I have not seen him play much at all. But Brown was very good to great college LT, but he tends not to dominate his opponent at all. He will struggle at times to pick up a fast DE that lines up to his outside. Brown is very strong and almost imposable to straight up bull rush. Once he gets u close and latches on he is tough to beat. But like I said he will get beat by quick DE's, he seems to me that he is not very quick to slide out and pick up top speed rushers. Against the top two defenses that Brown Faced this year OSU and Mich. his men accounted for 12 tackles, 4 TFL, 3 sacks.


No he wont, unless he falls asleep. thats his prob. maybe schlesinger picks up the slack huh? We get Brown, we have a legitimate force for Ronnie Brown to run behind.

Brown and Brown LLP (Limited Liability Partnership)

dan the fin
04-18-2007, 04:42 PM
No he wont, unless he falls asleep. thats his prob. maybe schlesinger picks up the slack huh? We get Brown, we have a legitimate force for Ronnie Brown to run behind.

Brown and Brown LLP (Limited Liability Partnership)

Ok, no he won't what????? and I agree he will be a good run blocker but thats not going to help r QB from getting killed on his blind side. So u are saying he is no an elite LT if he needs help from the fullback. Look he could develop as a Pass blocker, but so far he has given up more sacks in a couple games compare that to most top level LT's in the NFL, they gave up less in there whole college career. Plus at Penn st they don't pass much and had a mobile QB that avoided a lot of sacks also. Like I said good talent, but no where close to a top 10 pick at LT. But he will get draft higher because of the lack of talent at the LT position.

finfan54
04-18-2007, 07:20 PM
Ok, no he won't what????? and I agree he will be a good run blocker but thats not going to help r QB from getting killed on his blind side. So u are saying he is no an elite LT if he needs help from the fullback. Look he could develop as a Pass blocker, but so far he has given up more sacks in a couple games compare that to most top level LT's in the NFL, they gave up less in there whole college career. Plus at Penn st they don't pass much and had a mobile QB that avoided a lot of sacks also. Like I said good talent, but no where close to a top 10 pick at LT. But he will get draft higher because of the lack of talent at the LT position.


What is an elite LT? One that never gets beat? You dont think excellent LT's dont get beat? They get beat all the time, you just dont notice it much because it doesnt happen most of the time.

You talk as if Levi Brown is a turnstile at LT in pass blocking. That is crap. He is not a terrible pass blocker, if it were so, he would not be rated so high. cmon dan, just be a little objective here. And he is not drafted high because of lack of talent at the LT position because every year there are only one or two, at most three good LT's in the first round. this year is no different.

Just be a little objective dude, you talk as if Levi Brown sits around eating bon bons all day long.

dan the fin
04-18-2007, 08:47 PM
What is an elite LT? One that never gets beat? You dont think excellent LT's dont get beat? They get beat all the time, you just dont notice it much because it doesnt happen most of the time.

You talk as if Levi Brown is a turnstile at LT in pass blocking. That is crap. He is not a terrible pass blocker, if it were so, he would not be rated so high. cmon dan, just be a little objective here. And he is not drafted high because of lack of talent at the LT position because every year there are only one or two, at most three good LT's in the first round. this year is no different.

Just be a little objective dude, you talk as if Levi Brown sits around eating bon bons all day long.

I even said he was a good to great LT in college just not a pure dominate type guy like other elite LT in the NFL were like in college. In the NFL I see him becoming an above average to good LT or a good to great RT. He just don't have the natural flow or footwork that Top LT in NFL have. I think thats pretty fair and objective. With that type of physical talent and his on-field performances in College I do not think at all he is worth a top ten pick. To me Brown is very similar to V. Carey.

dlockz
04-18-2007, 10:35 PM
I even said he was a good to great LT in college just not a pure dominate type guy like other elite LT in the NFL were like in college. In the NFL I see him becoming an above average to good LT or a good to great RT. He just don't have the natural flow or footwork that Top LT in NFL have. I think thats pretty fair and objective. With that type of physical talent and his on-field performances in College I do not think at all he is worth a top ten pick. To me Brown is very similar to V. Carey.


I don't know it seemed carey was big underachiever in college. I think Brown has fine footwork, too many people are mistaking 40 time with footwork.

dan the fin
04-19-2007, 09:30 AM
I don't know it seemed carey was big underachiever in college. I think Brown has fine footwork, too many people are mistaking 40 time with footwork.

And I never said it because of his 40 time. I said his footwork is not that great in the game on the field. If you read my posts I have watched him play many times and he tends to get beat by fast speed rushers, as he does not seem to be as fluid as most top LT at sliding out and picking them up. And for the record I don't think he will be bad, just not a top ten type of pick. He could be a above average to good LT or a great RT. Some people on here think he will be this premier pro-bowl LT,like a Pace or Ogden. But he is just not close to those guys as far as skill set or on how he performed on the field in college.