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BAMAPHIN 22
07-05-2007, 10:50 AM
As we'll see in this article, the authenticity of the Bible is supported by empirical, archaeological evidence.

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/07/04/how-archaeology-proves-the-bible/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prevailmagazine.org%2F%3Fp%3D28&frame=true

Pagan
07-05-2007, 11:00 AM
Wow...an overwhelming amount....

of nothing.

Photos of a "boat shaped object" prove that the ark existed! I guess ol' Nessie is real too, since all we have are photos of her!

And I love how they can determine the age of the "boat" from a photo, yet scoff at the notion of carbon dating. :lol:

Alex44
07-05-2007, 11:04 AM
Wow...an overwhelming amount....

of nothing.

Photos of a "boat shaped object" prove that the ark existed! I guess ol' Nessie is real too, since all we have are photos of her!

And I love how they can determine the age of the "boat" from a photo, yet scoff at the notion of carbon dating. :lol:

It's probably about as bad as the one guy who said that god must exist because bananas fit the groove of our hands. :rolleyes::lol:

Stitches
07-05-2007, 12:34 PM
It's probably about as bad as the one guy who said that god must exist because bananas fit the groove of our hands. :rolleyes::lol:

Are you serious?


Damn you kirk Cameron.

DeathStar
07-05-2007, 02:23 PM
2z-OLG0KyR4

finswin56
07-05-2007, 03:00 PM
2z-OLG0KyR4 "The atheist's nightmare"
:sidelol:

PhinPhan1227
07-05-2007, 03:42 PM
I am constantly reminded of the Babel Fish. A creature so esoteric that it proves Gods existenc,e thus nullifying faith, thus causing God to cease to exist. Exactly what do these folks keep missing abou tthe concept of "faith"?

Lukin
07-07-2007, 01:11 AM
I thought the evidence regarding the discovery of Jesus’s tomb was pretty compelling but most Christians completely refused to even consider that it was real and the whole world basically forgot about it. Why is that? I'm not saying I thought it was authentic, but I found it to be plausible, especially given the statistics.

You'd think that Christians would be excited; I mean, to date there is NO archaeological evidence that Jesus ever really existed. Then when the whole tomb thing came out Christians were like, "no that can't be true because Jesus didn't have a tomb, he ascended to Heaven.."

Personally, I like to be open-minded. I believe Jesus was real. Whether or not he was the son of God, I dunno - but he changed the world, thats for sure.

Celtkin
07-07-2007, 04:57 AM
2z-OLG0KyR4

:lol:

I wonder how he explains this:

http://www.finheaven.com/clear.gif

HysterikiLL
07-07-2007, 05:06 AM
Maybe if Al Gore wrote a foreword to the Bible, more people would buy into it. :confused2

HysterikiLL
07-07-2007, 05:08 AM
2z-OLG0KyR4

Am I the only one turned on by that?

Den54
07-07-2007, 07:44 AM
Maybe if Al Gore wrote a foreword to the Bible, more people would buy into it. :confused2

People would ridicule it even harder.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Maybe if Al Gore wrote a foreword to the Bible, more people would buy into it. :confused2

Didn't Al Gore invent the bible?

muscle979
07-07-2007, 11:45 AM
I am constantly reminded of the Babel Fish. A creature so esoteric that it proves Gods existenc,e thus nullifying faith, thus causing God to cease to exist. Exactly what do these folks keep missing abou tthe concept of "faith"?

My wife has faith that I'll come home every night after work because I always do. I had faith my parents would take care of me because they did. The idea that faith can't existence without mystery and no concrete evidence of God's existence is flawed. Faith can exist with knowledge to back it up. It does everyday.

Alex44
07-07-2007, 11:52 AM
My wife has faith that I'll come home every night after work because I always do. I had faith my parents would take care of me because they did. The idea that faith can't existence without mystery and no concrete evidence of God's existence is flawed. Faith can exist with knowledge to back it up. It does everyday.


The difference is that your situations of faith were plausible because they repeatedly happened. Faith in God is not the same way at all.

muscle979
07-07-2007, 01:17 PM
The difference is that your situations of faith were plausible because they repeatedly happened. Faith in God is not the same way at all.

Right. But the idea that someone couldn't have faith in God if they actually had proof of God's existence is flawed. Why couldn't you still have faith? Why does God demand blind faith? I would never do that with my children but I'm not God so I guess I just can't comprehend it.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 01:42 PM
The people that I have met in my life who have a true belief in God absolutely have personal "proof" that God exists. They have had real life experiences where God revealed himself to them. I think the problem people who haven't had that experience have, is believing these people's experiences. On a certain level, it's not God they dont believe in but the people who relate the experience. I can sympathize with that. It's very difficult to truly believe if you havent experienced God. Hopefully everyone will have at last one moment in their life where God reveals himself to them

Stitches
07-07-2007, 02:15 PM
The people that I have met in my life who have a true belief in God absolutely have personal "proof" that God exists. They have had real life experiences where God revealed himself to them. I think the problem people who haven't had that experience have, is believing these people's experiences. On a certain level, it's not God they dont believe in but the people who relate the experience. I can sympathize with that. It's very difficult to truly believe if you havent experienced God. Hopefully everyone will have at last one moment in their life where God reveals himself to them

Flashing people is a crime. :wink:

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 02:24 PM
The people that I have met in my life who have a true belief in God absolutely have personal "proof" that God exists. They have had real life experiences where God revealed himself to them. I think the problem people who haven't had that experience have, is believing these people's experiences. On a certain level, it's not God they dont believe in but the people who relate the experience. I can sympathize with that. It's very difficult to truly believe if you havent experienced God. Hopefully everyone will have at last one moment in their life where God reveals himself to them

They had personal experiences where they THINK God revealed himself to them.

By the way, transcortical magnetic stimulation (TMS) has allowed neuroscientists to stimulate such religious experiences in people, even those that haven't had such experiences before. At this stage of research, out-of-body experiences can be stimulated. "God" experiences not yet, but I'm sure that won't be too far away.

.. the future of entertainment .. stimulate the brain directly to produce desired sensations ..

cmax13
07-07-2007, 02:44 PM
They had personal experiences where they THINK God revealed himself to them.

By the way, transcortical magnetic stimulation (TMS) has allowed neuroscientists to stimulate such religious experiences in people, even those that haven't had such experiences before. At this stage of research, out-of-body experiences can be stimulated. "God" experiences not yet, but I'm sure that won't be too far away.

.. the future of entertainment .. stimulate the brain directly to produce desired sensations ..


you need to find a financial backer and get this thing going, STAT. you'd make more money than bill gates.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 02:45 PM
Flashing people is a crime. :wink:

:lol::lol: My shrink told me I'm all better now:evil:

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 02:47 PM
They had personal experiences where they THINK God revealed himself to them.

By the way, transcortical magnetic stimulation (TMS) has allowed neuroscientists to stimulate such religious experiences in people, even those that haven't had such experiences before. At this stage of research, out-of-body experiences can be stimulated. "God" experiences not yet, but I'm sure that won't be too far away.

.. the future of entertainment .. stimulate the brain directly to produce desired sensations ..

No. Not think but KNOW. You prove my case, this really boils down to people not believing the messengers and thereby the message

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 02:48 PM
you need to find a financial backer and get this thing going, STAT. you'd make more money than bill gates.

This the ultimate weapon in our War Against Drugs:unsure:

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 03:08 PM
you need to find a financial backer and get this thing going, STAT. you'd make more money than bill gates.

Yeah, it has great potential, no doubt. But, there are a lot of problems for investors.

First of all, the technology to stimulate selective areas of the brain non-invasively already exists, so I'm not sure what kind of hardware one could develop that would keep competitors at bay (through a patent or so).

The problem lies less in the hardware than in which areas specifically to stimulate. And most of the research for that is done open-source, meaning it wouldn't be hard for others to replicate whatever you do.

So, it's really a matter of timing I'd say if you're an investor. At some point, enough will be known about which areas to stimulate that it's worth trying to commercialize it. I just doubt any one company could corner the market through a patent or so.

In any case, I'm in a slightly different area of neuroscience (dealing more with developing mathematical models of visual processing) than trying to localize brain areas with specific functions, so it's up to others to do the research and capitalize on this.

But, yeah I'm sure it will be a revolutionary technology not too far in the future (probably will start with "experience out of body experiences" only and slowly progress to "experience any sensation you want" as the technology matures).

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 03:13 PM
No. Not think but KNOW. You prove my case, this really boils down to people not believing the messengers and thereby the message

You're human. You make mistakes, and there is not only no logical proof that God exists, but there is no way you could ever know you couldn't be wrong about this.

The schizophrenic that can't distinguish between reality and non-reality will say things with equal conviction, but that doesn't mean he's correct about what he says.

Simply put, you have no way of knowing whether God exists or not, since it's always possible that experience was just the result of certain neurons in your brain firing - it could just be a mental construct. So, no you do NOT know God exists, you THINK you experienced God.

Alex44
07-07-2007, 03:26 PM
Right. But the idea that someone couldn't have faith in God if they actually had proof of God's existence is flawed. Why couldn't you still have faith? Why does God demand blind faith? I would never do that with my children but I'm not God so I guess I just can't comprehend it.

The only flaw is when people say things along the lines of 'God has faith in us, so we should have faith in them' that is 100% flawed.

Faith in an unproven object can exist (though that doesn't make it likely or true) but faith FROM an unproven object is a flawed idea that can't exist or at least can't have meaning.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 03:44 PM
You're human. You make mistakes, and there is not only no logical proof that God exists, but there is no way you could ever know you couldn't be wrong about this.

The schizophrenic that can't distinguish between reality and non-reality will say things with equal conviction, but that doesn't mean he's correct about what he says.

Simply put, you have no way of knowing whether God exists or not, since it's always possible that experience was just the result of certain neurons in your brain firing - it could just be a mental construct. So, no you do NOT know God exists, you THINK you experienced God.

From personal experience talking with people who profess a believe in God, I would say at least 25% to 50% have some type of experience. If 90% of people believe in God in this country and 50% suffer schizophrenia that would put the number at 135 million. If you can support that statement showing me a medicaL OR psychological study that presents the case that 135 million people suffer from schizophrenia in this country please provide it.

It's convenient to disparage people by calling them schizophrenic rather than entertain the idea that it's you who is deficient. Perhaps you simply lack that part of the brain that would allow you to experince God. The idea must certainly be entertained that those lacking an experience with God may be mentally deficient in some capacity or other. Perhaps some part of our brain is specifically dedicated to connecting with God and it's not active in a part of our society. Certainly possible from a scientific perspective, no?

Alex44
07-07-2007, 03:48 PM
From personal experience talking with people who profess a believe in God, I would say at least 25% to 50% have some type of experience. If 90% of people believe in God in this country and 50% suffer schizophrenia that would put the number at 135 million. If you can support that statement showing me a medicaL OR psychological study that presents the case that 135 million people suffer from schizophrenia in this country please provide it.

It's convenient to disparage people by calling them schizophrenic rather than entertain the idea that it's you who is deficient. Perhaps you simply lack that part of the brain that would allow you to experince God. The idea must certainly be entertained that those lacking an experience with God may be mentally deficient in some capacity or other. Perhaps some part of our brain is specifically dedicated to connecting with God and it's not active in a part of our society. Certainly possible from a scientific perspective, no?

That's funny since studies have shown that those with higher IQ's have a lesser belief in God than those with lower IQ's.

Not that it means all that much, but it seems as if the smarter people who accept reality are the ones that don't have experiences with God.

Also for a second I'll assume there was a God that created us. Why would he create some with a mental problem making them incapable of connecting with him?

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 03:55 PM
From personal experience talking with people who profess a believe in God, I would say at least 25% to 50% have some type of experience. If 90% of people believe in God in this country and 50% suffer schizophrenia that would put the number at 135 million. If you can support that statement showing me a medicaL OR psychological study that presents the case that 135 million people suffer from schizophrenia in this country please provide it.

It's convenient to disparage people by calling them schizophrenic rather than entertain the idea that it's you who is deficient. Perhaps you simply lack that part of the brain that would allow you to experince God. The idea must certainly be entertained that those lacking an experience with God may be mentally deficient in some capacity or other. Perhaps some part of our brain is specifically dedicated to connecting with God and it's not active in a part of our society. Certainly possible from a scientific perspective, no?


Man, how often do you misrepresent what I state?? NOWHERE do I claim even ONE person that believes in God is a schizophrenic. READ CAREFULLY, THEN ACCUSE!!

I just gave you an example of why no person could ever know whether he or she is correct with NO doubt! Not too long ago, there was a schizophrenic that somehow made it into UT's psychology building and started using a fire extinguisher right outside the lab I work in.

When police questioned him, he said he was trying to put out a fire!! There was no fire.

But, to that man that fire was REAL. Point is, NONE of us have the ability to objectively determine something we think is true IS true with NO doubt whatsoever.

I mean if it's true that we can know things with no doubt, then I could say I know with NO doubt you do NOT know God exists, and you could claim you know with NO doubt God exists. Obvious absurdity results. That's why science relies on testing claims so that we can determine which claim fits the data we gather best.

And since there is no known way to determine whether God exists, or even test which claim "God exists and created everything" or "everything is just a construct of your mind" is more accurate for example, there simply is no way you could even begin to show your claim is correct.

Again, you THINK you know God exists, but you do NOT know!

And please, before you respond to my posts, read them carefully. I think half the time I debate with people here I have to explain the English I use.

Den54
07-07-2007, 04:04 PM
That's funny since studies have shown that those with higher IQ's have a lesser belief in God than those with lower IQ's.

Not that it means all that much, but it seems as if the smarter people who accept reality are the ones that don't have experiences with God.

Also for a second I'll assume there was a God that created us. Why would he create some with a mental problem making them incapable of connecting with him?


That's not God's doing that's Satan's.:evil:

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 04:10 PM
Man, how often do you misrepresent what I state?? NOWHERE do I claim even ONE person that believes in God is a schizophrenic. READ CAREFULLY, THEN ACCUSE!!

I just gave you an example of why no person could ever know whether he or she is correct with NO doubt! Not too long ago, there was a schizophrenic that somehow made it into UT's psychology building and started using a fire extinguisher right outside the lab I work in.

When police questioned him, he said he was trying to put out a fire!! There was no fire.

But, to that man that fire was REAL. Point is, NONE of us have the ability to objectively determine something we think is true IS true with NO doubt whatsoever.

I mean if it's true that we can know things with no doubt, then I could say I know with NO doubt you do NOT know God exists, and you could claim you know with NO doubt God exists. Obvious absurdity results. That's why science relies on testing claims so that we can determine which claim fits the data we gather best.

And since there is no known way to determine whether God exists, or even test which claim "God exists and created everything" or "everything is just a construct of your mind" is more accurate for example, there simply is no way you could even begin to show your claim is correct.

Again, you THINK you know God exists, but you do NOT know!

And please, before you respond to my posts, read them carefully. I think half the time I debate with people here I have to explain the English I use.

If you use an example of a schizophrenic to prove your point about the powers of the mind to deceive the individual then you are equating the two by implication. You imply the religous is a mental defective without actually stating it

As to think and know, that opens up a philosophical debate whereby all of reality is opened to what's real or not, not just the religous experience.

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 04:13 PM
If you use an example of a schizophrenic to prove your point about the powers of the mind to deceive the individual then you are equating the two by implication. You imply the religous is a mental defective without actually stating it

As to think and know, that opens up a philosophical debate whereby all of reality is opened to what's real or not, not just the religous experience.

No, there was no such implication. If you can show there is such a logical implication I'm all ears.

And obviously, since what I said applied to ALL humans, there's no way you could somehow deduce the example pertained to only the religious. I mean I made it clear what I said didn't just apply to religious people. Again, show me the "logic" if you really think there was such an implication.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 04:13 PM
That's funny since studies have shown that those with higher IQ's have a lesser belief in God than those with lower IQ's.

Not that it means all that much, but it seems as if the smarter people who accept reality are the ones that don't have experiences with God.

Also for a second I'll assume there was a God that created us. Why would he create some with a mental problem making them incapable of connecting with him?

That presupposes God Is Perfect. Many religions believe in an imperfect God

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 04:23 PM
No, there was no such implication. If you can show there is such a logical implication I'm all ears.

And obviously, since what I said applied to ALL humans, there's no way you could somehow deduce the example pertained to only the religious. I mean I made it clear what I said didn't just apply to religious people. Again, show me the "logic" if you really think there was such an implication.

You used three examples to answer. One was we make mistakes, two was schizophrenia and the other was neurons misfiring. You never used the possibility that they may be right. Granted you stated the modern axiom that there is no way of knowing so you covered yourself but my point was that you should also entertain the possibility that what they experince actually occurs. Wouldn't that be scientifically prudent? If nothing else compare it to the possibility that these people are sensitive to a type of telekinesis

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 04:26 PM
You used three examples to answer. One was we make mistakes, two was schizophrenia and the other was neurons misfiring. You never used the possibility that they may be right. Granted you stated the modern axiom that there is no way of knowing so you covered yourself but my point was that you should also entertain the possibility that what they experince actually occurs. Wouldn't that be scientifically prudent? If nothing else compare it to the possibility that these people are sensitive to a type of telekinesis

The possibility they could be correct is implicit. That really doesn't need to be stated. What DOES need to be stated when someone (you) claims that experience with NO doubt is correct is to emphasize it could be wrong.

And as long as you are human and have no objective means of determining whether any claim you make is true with NO qualifications necessary, then you THINK you know God exists, but you do NOT know because there is doubt.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 04:32 PM
The possibility they could be correct is implicit. That really doesn't need to be stated. What DOES need to be stated when someone (you) claims that experience with NO doubt is correct is to emphasize it could be wrong.

And as long as you are human and have no objective means of determining whether any claim you make is true with NO qualifications necessary, then you THINK you know God exists, but you do NOT know because there is doubt.

Although what you say is true, it's only true if you take the position that nothing our brain senses can ever really be known. All of reality then is simply a statistical probability.

ckb2001
07-07-2007, 04:35 PM
Although what you say is true, it's only true if you take the position that nothing our brain senses can ever really be known. All of reality then is simply a statistical probability.

That's correct. And in those cases where science can state things with no such statistical uncertainties (abstract sciences), there is still one assumption that remains: logic is valid.

So, no matter what science discovers, at least ONE assumption is made: logic is valid. So, sure everything science discovers is really just a conditional probability something is true (though it's kind of impractical to think that way).

Pagan
07-07-2007, 04:35 PM
The people that I have met in my life who have a true belief in God absolutely have personal "proof" that God exists. They have had real life experiences where God revealed himself to them. I think the problem people who haven't had that experience have, is believing these people's experiences. On a certain level, it's not God they dont believe in but the people who relate the experience. I can sympathize with that. It's very difficult to truly believe if you havent experienced God. Hopefully everyone will have at last one moment in their life where God reveals himself to them
There have been people who have had real life experiences with aliens and bigfoot too. Why are they ridiculed, yet people who've had "real life" experiences with god are not?

Fighter pilots, men who are selected for the job due to their superior eyesight and mental abilities, have reported seeing UFOs. They are scoffed at....more often than not by men who hit their knees every night and talk to a being they've never seen.

Funny how things work, huh?

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 04:42 PM
There have been people who have had real life experiences with aliens and bigfoot too. Why are they ridiculed, yet people who've had "real life" experiences with god are not?

Fighter pilots, men who are selected for the job due to their superior eyesight and mental abilities, have reported seeing UFOs. They are scoffed at....more often than not by men who hit their knees every night and talk to a being they've never seen.

Funny how things work, huh?

Dont know why you think people with religous experiences arent ridiculed, clearly they have been throughout history. You are correct that others have been ridiculed too and I agree that we should always be open to the possibility that they may be correct also.

adamprez2003
07-07-2007, 04:43 PM
That's correct. And in those cases where science can state things with no such statistical uncertainties (abstract sciences), there is still one assumption that remains: logic is valid.

So, no matter what science discovers, at least ONE assumption is made: logic is valid. So, sure everything science discovers is really just a conditional probability something is true (though it's kind of impractical to think that way).:lol::lol: I agree it would be impractical to think that way. There would be no point to getting out of bed:lol::lol:

Sponge
07-08-2007, 11:18 AM
The people that I have met in my life who have a true belief in God absolutely have personal "proof" that God exists. They have had real life experiences where God revealed himself to them. I think the problem people who haven't had that experience have, is believing these people's experiences. On a certain level, it's not God they dont believe in but the people who relate the experience. I can sympathize with that. It's very difficult to truly believe if you havent experienced God. Hopefully everyone will have at last one moment in their life where God reveals himself to them

Nice post, clearly illustrating that belief is in the eye of the beholder. Even though I don't believe in that way, I'm very happy for those that do and ask merely the same from them. Not to diminish the subject matter, but some people like watching golf on tv and I'm happy for them, but am not going to watch it myself and am not worried about missing anything from the experience.

The only part that I disagree with even slightly is the possible implication that those who haven't experienced God just aren't seeing or haven't gotten to that point in their life yet. I suggest this: God exists for those that believe, and does not exist for the others. And that's perfectly ok, at least until one side starts trying to force the other to change their mind.

Antoni
07-10-2007, 05:49 PM
I once had an experience with God as well.. at Ricky's house :ricky: