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I am Bane
02-03-2008, 02:10 PM
i know this has been like #1 discussion here but i jsut finished watching much tape on both these guys and:

i still think Dorsey does not use his hands well at all. he over powers college line-man, and relies way too much on his speed. without creating seperation with his hands and arms, NFL line-man are gonna stand him up against the run and push him back (mind you Dorsey isnt the biggest man or strongest)

Ellis uses his hands extremely well, extending for seperation then ripping around or throwing off the shoulder. he is in the back field more often than dorsey, (who slides down the line very well), ellis can split double teams by doing all this too, which he has done as Dorsey once again relies on spin moves or speed to do so, (he applied pressure but didnt get to the QB in these cases)

they both are very good... fast, quick, strong for their size, good tacklers.

well back to the film... Long time!!!!!!

2413fanphins
02-03-2008, 02:58 PM
I would take either one of them.

they will both be good.

I like trevor laws too though, in later rounds if it works out. He will be a damn good player as well.

I don't know... I saw dorsey do some unbelievable crap in some games this year.

Boomer
02-03-2008, 05:25 PM
i know this has been like #1 discussion here but i jsut finished watching much tape on both these guys and:

i still think Dorsey does not use his hands well at all. he over powers college line-man, and relies way too much on his speed. without creating seperation with his hands and arms, NFL line-man are gonna stand him up against the run and push him back (mind you Dorsey isnt the biggest man or strongest)

Ellis uses his hands extremely well, extending for seperation then ripping around or throwing off the shoulder. he is in the back field more often than dorsey, (who slides down the line very well), ellis can split double teams by doing all this too, which he has done as Dorsey once again relies on spin moves or speed to do so, (he applied pressure but didnt get to the QB in these cases)

they both are very good... fast, quick, strong for their size, good tacklers.

well back to the film... Long time!!!!!!


I really have no idea where to begin. You clearly haven't seen Dorsey.

SEC.142
02-03-2008, 05:50 PM
i know this has been like #1 discussion here but i jsut finished watching much tape on both these guys and:

i still think Dorsey does not use his hands well at all. he over powers college line-man, and relies way too much on his speed. without creating seperation with his hands and arms, NFL line-man are gonna stand him up against the run and push him back (mind you Dorsey isnt the biggest man or strongest)

Ellis uses his hands extremely well, extending for seperation then ripping around or throwing off the shoulder. he is in the back field more often than dorsey, (who slides down the line very well), ellis can split double teams by doing all this too, which he has done as Dorsey once again relies on spin moves or speed to do so, (he applied pressure but didnt get to the QB in these cases)

they both are very good... fast, quick, strong for their size, good tacklers.

well back to the film... Long time!!!!!!

Curious, what yr was Dorsey, and which games(also Dorsey)?

Boomer
02-03-2008, 06:29 PM
If he's been watching tape on Dorsey and doesn't think he uses his hands well, then I can only assume he's talking about Ken Dorsey.

JT#1
02-03-2008, 06:32 PM
If he's been watching tape on Dorsey and doesn't think he uses his hands well, then I can only assume he's talking about Ken Dorsey.:lol::lol:

MrTree
02-03-2008, 11:53 PM
If he's been watching tape on Dorsey and doesn't think he uses his hands well, then I can only assume he's talking about Ken Dorsey.


:lol:

#1dolphinsfan
02-03-2008, 11:57 PM
I would take either one of them.

they will both be good.

I like trevor laws too though, in later rounds if it works out. He will be a damn good player as well.

I don't know... I saw dorsey do some unbelievable crap in some games this year.
Yea i would take eather one Also but i think i would prefer Gleen Dorsey

I am Bane
02-04-2008, 12:31 AM
Dorsey doesnt use his hands to create seperation or extend the arms... he uses speed, and his shoulders of going right off the line

his speed, explosions and quickness has allowed him to beat palyers though.... i jsut wish he used his hands more

I am Bane
02-04-2008, 12:36 AM
just to make it clear too: i just giving my thoughts here... i dont care which we pick (Long too basically).... jsut as long we get one and he comes in playing his gludius maximus off to help this team out!!!!!

Ghetti13
02-04-2008, 02:36 PM
Dorsey does not use his hands well? Huh? Are we talking about Glenn Dorsey? From LSU?

And did you say Ellis uses his hands well? Huh? Standing straight up and sticking your arms out against the defender does not mean you are using your hands well. It simply means you have lost your leverage.

I am Bane
02-06-2008, 12:16 AM
Dorsey does not use his hands well? Huh? Are we talking about Glenn Dorsey? From LSU?

And did you say Ellis uses his hands well? Huh? Standing straight up and sticking your arms out against the defender does not mean you are using your hands well. It simply means you have lost your leverage.


nope... firing low and popping the lineman backwards, gaining control which way you want to go, thats called getting leverage with the extension.


i done with this convo.... nobody likes me :(


i think Long would be best for us anywhoos.... forget both these guys, lol

PerfectTeam
02-06-2008, 12:28 AM
nope... firing low and popping the lineman backwards, gaining control which way you want to go, thats called getting leverage with the extension.


i done with this convo.... nobody likes me :(


i think Long would be best for us anywhoos.... forget both these guys, lol

i dont think its about not liking you, i think its just your not watching the film correctly or dont quite have the understanding of techniques like CK, KB, and Boomer have.

Boomer
02-06-2008, 07:02 AM
nope... firing low and popping the lineman backwards, gaining control which way you want to go, thats called getting leverage with the extension.


i done with this convo.... nobody likes me :(


i think Long would be best for us anywhoos.... forget both these guys, lol

Dude, it's not that people don't like you, I just don't think you're seeing what you think you're seeing.

;)

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 08:00 AM
I really have no idea where to begin. You clearly haven't seen Dorsey.


Well, it's not as if he's the only one concerned about Dorsey's technique in defending the run. Let me quote from Drew Boylhart:

"His tackling techniques are very sloppy and college level RB’s are running by him because of his tendency to lunge and not wrap-up in tackling."

"His techniques are very sloppy and he is on the ground a lot."

"I actually like Glenn as a potential DE in a 3-4 defense more than I do as a DT in a 4-3. In a 1-gap attack defense like the Bears use, I would think that Glenn would impact right away until Offensive coordinators realize how bad his techniques are."

"If he shoots a gap, you can run draws by him really easy because he just does not wrap up very well."

Now, I don't necessarily agree with Drew Boylhart each and every time, but he does watch film and usually makes valid points. I think he's a bit too critical with Dorsey here, but after watching some film myself, I'm not that high on him either. The main reason being that I think Dorsey has terrific talent but - and that's where I agree with Drew - relies on talent more than he relies on technique. I think he'll eventually become at the very least a good player at the next level, but I also think he's in for a rude awakening in his first year. All things considered, I suspect that Chris Long or even Ellis would make more of an impact right away.

And now you can have at me ;)

Boomer
02-06-2008, 11:50 AM
Well, it's not as if he's the only one concerned about Dorsey's technique in defending the run. Let me quote from Drew Boylhart:

"His tackling techniques are very sloppy and college level RB’s are running by him because of his tendency to lunge and not wrap-up in tackling."

"His techniques are very sloppy and he is on the ground a lot."

"I actually like Glenn as a potential DE in a 3-4 defense more than I do as a DT in a 4-3. In a 1-gap attack defense like the Bears use, I would think that Glenn would impact right away until Offensive coordinators realize how bad his techniques are."

"If he shoots a gap, you can run draws by him really easy because he just does not wrap up very well."

Now, I don't necessarily agree with Drew Boylhart each and every time, but he does watch film and usually makes valid points. I think he's a bit too critical with Dorsey here, but after watching some film myself, I'm not that high on him either. The main reason being that I think Dorsey has terrific talent but - and that's where I agree with Drew - relies on talent more than he relies on technique. I think he'll eventually become at the very least a good player at the next level, but I also think he's in for a rude awakening in his first year. All things considered, I suspect that Chris Long or even Ellis would make more of an impact right away.

And now you can have at me ;)

Boylhart is talking about tackling technique.

I am Bane is talking about an inability to use his hands.

Not sure I see the correlation.

BlueFin
02-06-2008, 11:55 AM
Ken Dorsey.......classic!:sidelol:

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 12:00 PM
Boylhart is talking about tackling technique.



Hm. I didn't think Boylhart was talking about his tackling techniques only, but maybe I just got him wrong. If I did, my bad.

rev kev
02-06-2008, 12:14 PM
Hm. I didn't think Boylhart was talking about his tackling techniques only, but maybe I just got him wrong. If I did, my bad.

Thank God no one isexpected to make all these tackles alone... There should be support from your team

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 12:16 PM
Thank God no one isexpected to make all these tackles alone... There should be support from your team


Not sure what you're trying to say.

rev kev
02-06-2008, 12:20 PM
Not sure what you're trying to say.

Sorry i was just thinking that the guy DT is not like a CB on an island expected to make that one last tackle or it's 6 points...

I think the article you read the expert is like grasping at a straw to find an error in a guys game... It's no reflection on you...

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 12:38 PM
I think the article you read the expert is like grasping at a straw to find an error in a guys game


Thanks for the clarification. Although I have to admit that I usually respect Drew's opinion a lot because he's one of the few hobby scouts who are actually watching tape and aren't afraid to speak their mind when they are not seeing what the popular buzz is claiming.

As for his specific criticism, I think he makes a valid point. I think he might be overplaying the problem, but I have issues with Dorsey's tackling too. I just don't see the kid as the can't miss prospect a lot of others do. In my humble opinion, Howie's kid shows an eagerness to learn and improve that I somehow don't see in Dorsey. Might be wrong, of course, but in Dorsey I see a kid that knows he is a terrific athlete and is relying on it a bit more than he should. He doesn't have to have tackling issues - he's too good for that. But when a player who shouldn't have them has them anyway, I question his desire to improve. Yeah, maybe I'm nitpicking, but I just don't feel as comfortable with Dorsey as I do with Chris Long. I'd have serious problems to find a flaw in his game.

rev kev
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the clarification. Although I have to admit that I usually respect Drew's opinion a lot because he's one of the few hobby scouts who are actually watching tape and aren't afraid to speak their mind when they are not seeing what the popular buzz is claiming.

As for his specific criticism, I think he makes a valid point. I think he might be overplaying the problem, but I have issues with Dorsey's tackling too. I just don't see the kid as the can't miss prospect a lot of others do. In my humble opinion, Howie's kid shows an eagerness to learn and improve that I somehow don't see in Dorsey. Might be wrong, of course, but in Dorsey I see a kid that knows he is a terrific athlete and is relying on it a bit more than he should. He doesn't have to have tackling issues - he's too good for that. But when a player who shouldn't have them has them anyway, I question his desire to improve. Yeah, maybe I'm nitpicking, but I just don't feel as comfortable with Dorsey as I do with Chris Long. I'd have serious problems to find a flaw in his game.

Yeah character (coachability) and a players ceiling are issues you look at when you dropping that kind of money... I don't know nothing I'm from Canda and can't see as much... I do know something games are won and lost in the trenches...

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 12:48 PM
I don't know nothing I'm from Canda and can't see as much...


Hey, I'm from Germany. I'm positive you guys get a lot more coverage on College Football than we do. As a matter of fact, I'm sure of it because I lived in Toronto for a while and was surprised to see that many college games on TV. Unfortunately, I had to endure a lot of Bills games, too ;)

rev kev
02-06-2008, 12:57 PM
Hey, I'm from Germany. I'm positive you guys get a lot more coverage on College Football than we do. As a matter of fact, I'm sure of it because I lived in Toronto for a while and was surprised to see that many college games on TV. Unfortunately, I had to endure a lot of Bills games, too ;)

Yes we do get some on the magor networks... Germany is cool...:clap:

Ghetti13
02-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Glenn Dorsey has elite physical skills. No doubt. But I believe he is special because he has elite intangibles as well. He plays with the same type of motor as Chris Long. He shows the same type of will to be great as Chris Long.

Both have very high floors. Dorsey just happens to have a much higher ceiling. Glenn Dorsey don't come out very often.

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 01:30 PM
He shows the same type of will to be great as Chris Long


But does he show the same kind of effort? Chris showed a lot of improvement during his college career and to me that suggests that he's willing to do anything it takes to become a better player. I didn't nearly see as much improvement in Dorsey's play. Dorsey was great because he has great talent, not because he made great strides in improving his techniques. I don't so much question his work ethics. I question whether he understands that he is far from being a finished product. I agree that with Dorsey's talent, the sky's the limit. I just wonder if he really knows he isn't there yet. I'd love to be mistaken, because I've rarely seen a more talented DT in college.

Ghetti13
02-06-2008, 01:41 PM
I see the same effort from both Long and Dorsey when I watch the tape. Neither take plays off. Both need to be accounted for on every play.

Also, this theory about Long "showing a lot of improvement" goes right to what I am saying about the difference in talent. Long is arguably tapped out and he is still not as rare a prospect at his position as Glenn Dorsey. Dorsey dominates already and is really only scratching the surface of his potential. In essence, Dorsey did not show a lot of improvement while in college because he was dominating from very early on.

In regards to a finished product, I disagree. I think Dorsey is very close to a finished product and may be the most technically sound defensive tackle I have seen in some time. You couple this with his natural skill and you have a very rare type of defensive tackle.

Dorsey will be a force from day one if he changes nothing about his game. Thing is, he is probably just doing to get better. That is scary for everyone but the team who drafts him.


Put in the tape and I think you will most likely see the same things I am talking about. If it comes down to those two I am taking Dorsey hands down.

Vendigo
02-06-2008, 02:07 PM
In essence, Dorsey did not show a lot of improvement while in college because he was dominating from very early on


Very true. But that's a trap right there. Dorsey wouldn't be the first mightily talented player who has to learn the hard way that talent alone might make for a fine college career but gets you nowhere in the NFL. Actually, I'm very cautious with players who were dominating from very early on because experience tells you that they have a hard time making the transition. I am not saying that Dorsey won't make it, quite the contrary, but I don't believe he'll be an impact player right away. See:



In regards to a finished product, I disagree. I think Dorsey is very close to a finished product


We probably have to agree to disagree here. Dorsey really needs to work on his tackling techniques and I don't think working on his pass rushing moves would hurt him, either. The thing is that a player as good as Dorsey shouldn't have to need to work on those things. The simply fact that he does concerns me. Not to a point where I'd say "don't draft him", of course, but if I were part of an NFL FO, I'd make certain to convince myself during interviews that the kid knows he still has work to do.



Put in the tape and I think you will most likely see the same things I am talking about.


In fact I am seeing a lot of the same things you're talking about. I see that he's a tremendously talented kid. I see that he doesn't take plays off. I see that he's having a great motor. I see that he's one of the most gifted defensive linemen I've ever seen. I just don't see that he is a finished product and aware of it.

As a sidenote, I would generally appreciate it (no offense to you personally) if people would stop arguing along the "if you watched the tape, you would not say that" line. Some people are watching tapes and some people come away with a different impression. Hey, I assume that at least one guy from the Titans watched the tape on Vince Young and still got the impression he was worth a top 5 pick ;)

rev kev
02-06-2008, 02:23 PM
I just don't see that he is a finished product and aware of it.

Vendigo - I hear you correct..., I undersand where you are going with this concern

I am Bane
02-06-2008, 11:25 PM
i dont think its about not liking you, i think its just your not watching the film correctly or dont quite have the understanding of techniques like CK, KB, and Boomer have.



i was jsut kidding on that nobody likes me, its called a joke

nope, u right, i never played football and dont coach... its just my opinion


i think Long is definitely more fundamentally sound at the line, better against the run, and can hold his area better, uses his hands better, and will make more plays i nthe NFL.... Glenn relies too much on his speed and not fundamentals, not saying he's not gonna be good. i would rather have long in an upcoming 3-4.

Fullerboy
02-07-2008, 12:15 AM
i was jsut kidding on that nobody likes me, its called a joke

nope, u right, i never played football and dont coach... its just my opinion


i think Long is definitely more fundamentally sound at the line, better against the run, and can hold his area better, uses his hands better, and will make more plays i nthe NFL.... Glenn relies too much on his speed and not fundamentals, not saying he's not gonna be good. i would rather have long in an upcoming 3-4.


I dont know how you came up to this conclusion, it just baffles me?

Boomer
02-07-2008, 08:11 AM
And me

MrTree
02-07-2008, 09:18 AM
i was jsut kidding on that nobody likes me, its called a joke

nope, u right, i never played football and dont coach... its just my opinion


i think Long is definitely more fundamentally sound at the line, better against the run, and can hold his area better, uses his hands better, and will make more plays i nthe NFL.... Glenn relies too much on his speed and not fundamentals, not saying he's not gonna be good. i would rather have long in an upcoming 3-4.


Forgive me for being blunt, but I think the problem stems from the fact...well, that you are wrong. This isn't the case with Dorsey...not even close. And a lot of people around here with a lot of experience reviewing players consider your opinions baffling. Maybe you should review the tape again and consider what you might be missing?

2413fanphins
02-07-2008, 11:51 AM
uhhh?