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jim1
02-13-2008, 08:12 AM
ESPN ran a piece on Jake Long last night. Kiper flat out said that Long PROVED last year that he's a LT and that will be his position in the pros. His movement skills in the highlights were impressive, to say the least. Please, enough of the "Jake Long can't play LT/he's just a RT" crap.

As to this hip pivot argument- It's not often that you see a guy move at 6-7, 315 like I saw JLong move last night. Dude is an ATHLETE.

BlueFin
02-13-2008, 08:26 AM
Really?, that sounds like some of Mel's other great advice from the past...........

"Robert Gallery is a can't-miss tackle prospect and Jake Grove is a nasty center who will upgrade that position. The Raiders needed receivers but did not get them until late with Carlos Francis and Johnnie Morant."

Mel Kiper (Grading the Raiders draft)

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=2825346

So much for listening to Mel Kiper grade can't miss tackles going from college to Pro.

cnc66
02-13-2008, 08:30 AM
Kiper is in love with his own voice.. and hair gell..

jim1
02-13-2008, 08:41 AM
Really?, that sounds like some of Mel's other great advice from the past...........

"Robert Gallery is a can't-miss tackle prospect and Jake Grove is a nasty center who will upgrade that position. The Raiders needed receivers but did not get them until late with Carlos Francis and Johnnie Morant."

Mel Kiper (Grading the Raiders draft)

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=2825346

So much for listening to Mel Kiper grade can't miss tackles going from college to Pro.

No one gets it right all the time, and Mel Kiper is pretty darned good. Between his opinion and yours..... 'nuff said.

That ESPN piece (on TV) really demonstrates Long's movement skills and quicks, it's well worth seeing for anyone interested in JLong.

BlueFin
02-13-2008, 08:47 AM
No one gets it right all the time, and Mel Kiper is pretty darned good. Between his opinion and yours..... 'nuff said.

That ESPN piece (on TV) really demonstrates Long's movement skills and quicks, it's well worth seeing for anyone interested in JLong.

The point is Jim, Jake Long is not an Orlando Pace type prospect, too risky for #1 overall.

And as far as your shot at me, I'd say I've done as well or better than Kiper over the years of watching the draft and comparing my opinions to his.

It really doesn't matter, Jake Long won't be the 1st pick in the draft and its for the very reasons I've stated, no matter how hard you want it to be.

jim1
02-13-2008, 09:21 AM
The point is Jim, Jake Long is not an Orlando Pace type prospect, too risky for #1 overall.

And as far as your shot at me, I'd say I've done as well or better than Kiper over the years of watching the draft and comparing my opinions to his.

It really doesn't matter, Jake Long won't be the 1st pick in the draft and its for the very reasons I've stated, no matter how hard you want it to be.

That's not a direct shot at you- we're all amateurs here, the best of the bunch is Boomer in my opinion, by a long shot. I'm not swearing up and down that I'm right, and furthermore I respect your opinion. In my heart of hearts I do not think that we'll draft Jake Long- a combination of him not being quite the value that one would want out of the #1 overall pick and, maybe more importantly, some damn good tackles should be there at #32 and maybe later. Cases can be made for Dorsey/JLong/CLong/Ryan/ McFadden. They're all great players. I like the synergy that I see with JLong- because I think that he can play LT and allow Vernon Carey to move back to RT where he belongs.

But at #32 there could be so many options, who will fall? Otah, Baker, Cherilius, Chris Williams (a pure LT). Then you have Anthony Collins, Carl Nicks, Heath Benedict, maybe even Barry Richardson. So my best guess is that we take Chris Long and go OT at #32. I would have said Dorsey if we were gong to run a 4-3. And although I like Beck, I won't discount or discredit Ryan.

We'll get some good players- I doubt that Jake Long will be among them. But in my opinion he's going to be a good one.

BlueFin
02-13-2008, 10:14 AM
That's not a direct shot at you- we're all amateurs here, the best of the bunch is Boomer in my opinion, by a long shot. I'm not swearing up and down that I'm right, and furthermore I respect your opinion. In my heart of hearts I do not think that we'll draft Jake Long- a combination of him not being quite the value that one would want out of the #1 overall pick and, maybe more importantly, some damn good tackles should be there at #32 and maybe later. Cases can be made for Dorsey/JLong/CLong/Ryan/ McFadden. They're all great players. I like the synergy that I see with JLong- because I think that he can play LT and allow Vernon Carey to move back to RT where he belongs.

But at #32 there could be so many options, who will fall? Otah, Baker, Cherilius, Chris Williams (a pure LT). Then you have Anthony Collins, Carl Nicks, Heath Benedict, maybe even Barry Richardson. So my best guess is that we take Chris Long and go OT at #32. I would have said Dorsey if we were gong to run a 4-3. And although I like Beck, I won't discount or discredit Ryan.

We'll get some good players- I doubt that Jake Long will be among them. But in my opinion he's going to be a good one.

Boomer is incredible at this, he really should be scouting for an NFL team, and if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong Boom), he has doubts about Jake Long at left tackle in the NFL.

jim1
02-13-2008, 10:18 AM
Boomer is incredible at this, he really should be scouting for an NFL team, and if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong Boom), he has doubts about Jake Long at left tackle in the NFL.

I think that you're right, Boomer has doubts about Jake Long at LT in the NFL. I disagree with him. Try to watch that ESPN piece on JLong. It's just a clip, but man can that guy move for a guy his size.

Regina Phin
02-13-2008, 10:18 AM
Robert Gallery is exactly what comes to mind when I think of Jake Long. Not because of any sort of skillset that Long/Gallery posesses or because of any sort of physical comparison, but just because Gallery was such a "can't miss" prospect at left tackle and then just didn't work out at all. I don't actually mind Jake Long and I can't say that I would be terribly disappointed in the pick, but I'd much rather go defense at #1 and I'd way rather have Long than Matt Ryan.

jim1
02-13-2008, 10:42 AM
Robert Gallery is exactly what comes to mind when I think of Jake Long. Not because of any sort of skillset that Long/Gallery posesses or because of any sort of physical comparison, but just because Gallery was such a "can't miss" prospect at left tackle and then just didn't work out at all. I don't actually mind Jake Long and I can't say that I would be terribly disappointed in the pick, but I'd much rather go defense at #1 and I'd way rather have Long than Matt Ryan.

Did anyone think that Billy Milner would blow that badly? There's no such thing as a can't miss prospect. I'd like to get beyond and rise above the simplistic Gallery/Long comparisons. They're both big, tall, white boy LT's from midwestern colleges in the same conference. Is that it? Long will necessarily fail because Gallery failed at LT? Please.

Ghetti13
02-13-2008, 11:58 AM
I think Mel is off base on this one. Long has some serious issues ranging from lateral movement skills all the way to . . . . dare I say it . . . Strength.

Long is an enormous media darling.

#1 Fan
02-13-2008, 12:06 PM
didn't long allow only one sack last year. not sure why, but seem to remember this from somewhere. could be wrong though

#1 Fan
02-13-2008, 12:08 PM
also, i could be wrong about this too, but i think it's because of mel kiper that we have mock drafts. we should cut the guy a little slack. he has been doing this for years and does watch a lot of football.

The Confessor
02-13-2008, 12:21 PM
didn't long allow only one sack last year. not sure why, but seem to remember this from somewhere. could be wrong though


I know I saw him get beat VERY badly at least 3 times..and that was just in the Illinois game.


:up:

#1 Fan
02-13-2008, 12:23 PM
^^^ok, not sure where i read that then. my bad. could've dreamt it up or something

The Confessor
02-13-2008, 12:23 PM
No one gets it right all the time, and Mel Kiper is pretty darned good. Between his opinion and yours..... 'nuff said.

That ESPN piece (on TV) really demonstrates Long's movement skills and quicks, it's well worth seeing for anyone interested in JLong.


Yeah, just like his "Cant Miss Lock" in last years draft...Phins taking Brady Quinn if he is still there at 9 :sidelol::sidelol::sidelol:

Mel Kiper should get out into the sunlight a little more. I think the combination of lack of fresh air and Hair Gel has rotted his brain

Stitches
02-13-2008, 12:31 PM
^^^ok, not sure where i read that then. my bad. could've dreamt it up or something

Getting beat, and actually giving up sacks are completely different.

rev kev
02-13-2008, 12:36 PM
Kiper is in love with his own voice.. and hair gell..

Why can't we just stay on topic - instraed of smashing people's looks...?

ChambersWI
02-13-2008, 12:58 PM
biggest difference between Long and Gallery is that Gallery played alongside some very good guards at Iowa (including Eric Steinbach), Jake Long played next to Alex Mitchell and Victor Riley the last couple years.

I think Long can play LT cause I've seen him dominate at that position the last 2 years with little to no help.

PhinsTD
02-13-2008, 01:02 PM
With all due respect to these guys who do this on this site, but take away all the draft grading information they have now (magazines, websites, interviews, print media), and allow them to only watch film, and then have them grade players on their own and see how accurate they are.

I would bet these two things:

1. They would do a much better job at projecting pro talent, and what "value" they are as far as rounds, than I would.

2. They would miss on several players (seeing as many as 50% of first round picks are busts).

You can view skills, lifting numbers, running speeds until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean anything when they get out on the field. You can watch tape of them on the field, but will it translate? How will these guys handle the pressure, fame, money of it all? What kind of heart and work ethic is in these guys?

That's why this is such a hard thing to do, and projecting college players to the pros is not an exact science. One person shows evidence of when Kiper is wrong, to discredit him, but doesn't point out the bust rate of first round picks.

Bottom line: It's an inexact science, and I'm confident in Bill Parcells and his crew to do their homework, evaluate all possibilities, and do their best to make the best pick possible for the future of this franchise. After that, who knows what will happen.

Regina Phin
02-13-2008, 01:06 PM
Did anyone think that Billy Milner would blow that badly? There's no such thing as a can't miss prospect. I'd like to get beyond and rise above the simplistic Gallery/Long comparisons. They're both big, tall, white boy LT's from midwestern colleges in the same conference. Is that it? Long will necessarily fail because Gallery failed at LT? Please.

I'm certainly not saying that Long will fail at LT. I'm not a scout and I've never watched a single snap of Long's, so I'm in no position at all to make that comment. All I am going by is the fact that I've heard mentions of the fact that he might be better suited at Right Tackle and then the comments coming out from Kiper that he is definitely going to be a Left Tackle and I thought of Gallery. If there's more comparisons than that, I have no clue.

Basically what I question is whether or not he's worth the #1 overall pick. If, and that's IF, he ends up being an average left tackle, I think it's a blown pick. If he gets moved to right tackle I think it's a blown pick. I do feel confident, though, that if we pick him #1 overall, then he must be something special.

lbmclean_sj
02-13-2008, 01:18 PM
we need to all call Long a LT, so that jim1 can get some sleep

Desides
02-13-2008, 01:35 PM
Mel Kiper: "The Dolphins will take Brady Quinn."

Mel Kiper: "Oh wow, they didn't take Brady Quinn, the Dolphins just don't understand what the draft is about."

Mel Kiper: "The Dolphins took John Beck? Okay, they're not stupid after all, but I still wish they had taken Quinn just so I would look better."

We can safely disregard what Mel Kiper has to say. He merely ranks players where he believes they should go, and then slaps team names next to those players regardless of positional needs.

dlockz
02-13-2008, 02:13 PM
With all due respect to these guys who do this on this site, but take away all the draft grading information they have now (magazines, websites, interviews, print media), and allow them to only watch film, and then have them grade players on their own and see how accurate they are.

I would bet these two things:

1. They would do a much better job at projecting pro talent, and what "value" they are as far as rounds, than I would.

2. They would miss on several players (seeing as many as 50% of first round picks are busts).

You can view skills, lifting numbers, running speeds until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean anything when they get out on the field. You can watch tape of them on the field, but will it translate? How will these guys handle the pressure, fame, money of it all? What kind of heart and work ethic is in these guys?

That's why this is such a hard thing to do, and projecting college players to the pros is not an exact science. One person shows evidence of when Kiper is wrong, to discredit him, but doesn't point out the bust rate of first round picks.

Bottom line: It's an inexact science, and I'm confident in Bill Parcells and his crew to do their homework, evaluate all possibilities, and do their best to make the best pick possible for the future of this franchise. After that, who knows what will happen.

People love to hate on Kiper but he created something that some on this board would love to emulate. Like it or not he is basically the face of the NFL draft. I personally have not seen any guru where it be self professed or actually making a living doing it get it right all the time or even that great a percentage of the time. Over the years I have noticed them to not be any more accurate than a true amateur such as myself but I give Kiper his proper respect because he does have alot of insight. If people want to feel that some guys off our website are better thats fine but that may be more due to familiarity and the ability to actually talk to these guys rather than actual facts. Even the best miss alot.

dlockz
02-13-2008, 02:15 PM
Mel Kiper: "The Dolphins will take Brady Quinn."

Mel Kiper: "Oh wow, they didn't take Brady Quinn, the Dolphins just don't understand what the draft is about."

Mel Kiper: "The Dolphins took John Beck? Okay, they're not stupid after all, but I still wish they had taken Quinn just so I would look better."

We can safely disregard what Mel Kiper has to say. He merely ranks players where he believes they should go, and then slaps team names next to those players regardless of positional needs.


Its not like Kiper was the only guy that thought we were taking Quinn and Qb was our biggest need.

newlownorder
02-13-2008, 02:45 PM
I dont like when people compare a prospect to another prospect (Gallery vs. Long) or when people assume a player will be bad because other players from the same college aren't good. Remember when people here said Larry Johnson was a bust because he went to Penn St? I've watched Long and wasn't as impressed as I was with other linemen.

lbmclean_sj
02-13-2008, 04:22 PM
they were talking aboot Flozell on NFL radio yesterday

they talked aboot the trend started by Freeney

this trend does not bode well for bigger less athletic tackles

I would prefer at 6'5" guy with great feet and long arms for his height than a 6'7" guy with worse athleticism and average arms

jdang307
02-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Aha, I found the reason for the Quinn quirk with Kiper:



Children's Draft Knowledge

Kiper: My daughter (Lauren, 12) would know Brady Quinn because he's Notre Dame and I'm a huge Notre Dame fan.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/richard_deitsch/04/24/mayock.kiper/index.html

rev kev
02-13-2008, 05:11 PM
Aha, I found the reason for the Quinn quirk with Kiper:


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/richard_deitsch/04/24/mayock.kiper/index.html

Everyone thought we were going Quinn all the way.., and we won't know for at least two years whether CAMRAM was right... I am not yet convinced...

dlockz
02-13-2008, 05:21 PM
Everyone thought we were going Quinn all the way.., and we won't know for at least two years whether CAMRAM was right... I am not yet convinced...


Well Ram Cam were not right about much last year, so him making a bad decision is not a suprise

jdang307
02-13-2008, 05:40 PM
I'm liking Ginn and Satele and L.Booker so far as draft picks go. Jury out on Soliai and Beck (but I'm a beck supporter, I think he has it all just needs the chance to grow and learn).

rev kev
02-13-2008, 06:10 PM
I'm liking Ginn and Satele and L.Booker so far as draft picks go. Jury out on Soliai and Beck (but I'm a beck supporter, I think he has it all just needs the chance to grow and learn).

OK so we'll know down the road whether passing on Brady was good or not...

So what do we do now...? No starter... Do you draft a QB to push him harder or is he too fragile... I mean his confidence... BP doesn't give a rats *** if Beck's confidence is shattered after the draft...

I say we draft a cerebral QB..., I say we build our Oline like a wall then we'll see....

dlockz
02-13-2008, 08:12 PM
Why would I be? I get better and more accurate insight from these boards than I do Kiper or Mayok. Schefter is the only guy I'd listen to for anything from the national guys. Jealous? No. Easily dismissive of Kiper or Mayock? Certainly. Ask Boomer how much crap he got for his pick of Ginn prior to the draft last year, and look who was right when so many others were wrong.


I guess it depends on what stock u play. I dont look for draft analysis to see who we are going to pick, I want people to be able to evaluate players.

Also maybe I have a hazy memory I thought Boomer said that if we dont take Quinn dont be suprised if we take Ginn based on his visits but dont remember him saying we will take Ginn. I mean I could say that if we dont take Long then we will take Dorsey. I could care less about predicting the draft, I want to hear about the potential of guys taken.

2413fanphins
02-13-2008, 08:54 PM
I put plenty of stock into boomer, ck, etc etc etc...

but there are plenty of people on here who think they are experts who are not.

For the most part, I would say kiper can evalutate talent. He doesn't necessarily project whos going where in the draft very well, but how would anybody know who a team is taking unless they had direct communication with gms.

I have maintained all along that I think long can be a LT, and if I am wrong I will eat crow. But we'll have to wait and see.

PhinsRock
02-13-2008, 11:13 PM
Kiper is in love with his own voice.. and hair gell..

Marty you're killing me, ROTFL :sidelol::sidelol:

Not to mention you're right. :lol:

Fresh
02-14-2008, 01:45 AM
The point is Jim, Jake Long is not an Orlando Pace type prospect, too risky for #1 overall.

IMO, every prospect in this draft is "too risky" for the #1 overall pick.

I guess I'm the only one who is reminded of Matt Roth by Chris Long.

SR 7
02-14-2008, 01:52 AM
IMO, every prospect in this draft is "too risky" for the #1 overall pick.

I guess I'm the only one who is reminded of Matt Roth by Chris Long.

matt roth was a top 15 pick and dropped for some reason draft day. He does remind me of long but long seems a bit MORE of a playmaker with longer arms.

unifiedtheory
02-14-2008, 03:15 AM
I don't give a flying rats *** what Kiper says, Jake Long is not the best player in the draft. It's Chris Long or Glenn Dorsey...end of discussion in my opinion.

Left tackle is a DEEP position in this draft. We can pass on Jake Long and still get a darn good tackle prospect at #32.

rev kev
02-14-2008, 10:53 AM
umm...the guy you quoted wasn't the one who insulted Kiper

Umm.......... you are a few posts behind...., he is supporting people who are insulting people becaus they are jealous that they are not in the position of a Mayock or Kiper..., so be dismissive...,

Like your Dorsey picture...

Motion
02-14-2008, 11:01 AM
matt roth was a top 15 pick and dropped for some reason draft day. He does remind me of long but long seems a bit MORE of a playmaker with longer arms.

Whhhhaaaaatttttt???

Please please please show me where Matt Roth was ever even considered a 1st rounder, let alone Top 15. Roth is one of the most overrated players on the team and hasn't performed anywhere near the 2nd round potential he was drafted.

Stitches
02-14-2008, 11:12 AM
Whhhhaaaaatttttt???

Please please please show me where Matt Roth was ever even considered a 1st rounder, let alone Top 15. Roth is one of the most overrated players on the team and hasn't performed anywhere near the 3rd round potential he was drafted.


Roth was considered a borderline 1st IIRC, but he certainly was never a top 15 consideration. :wink:

Motion
02-14-2008, 11:14 AM
Roth was considered a borderline 1st IIRC, but he certainly was never a top 15 consideration. :wink:

Perfect example of how the draft grades are such a crapshoot.

I never remember hearing his name that high, and obviously for good reason.

DOL-FAN92
02-14-2008, 11:16 AM
The point is Jim, Jake Long is not an Orlando Pace type prospect, too risky for #1 overall.

And as far as your shot at me, I'd say I've done as well or better than Kiper over the years of watching the draft and comparing my opinions to his.

It really doesn't matter, Jake Long won't be the 1st pick in the draft and its for the very reasons I've stated, no matter how hard you want it to be.

LOL....Everyones too "RISKY" in this years draft for the #1 pick....

I think we need a Tackle for Beck,cause Vernon doesn't get it done on the left,people even say Vernon would be better off playing OG,and we graft another tackle for the right side,like Nick from Nebraska,or Williams for Vanderbilt.Even if Jake plays RT,which I doubt cause he was only beat once by the left side by Vernon Gholston this year,enough said,Tony Sparano and Mike Maser are two great O-Line coaches,they can get Jake converted to LT by the season opener.Jake Long is the proto-typical LT,and he play just as good on the left,as the right.If we don't get him,I really do think we're missing out on the next Orlando Pace for the next 10-15 years.

rev kev
02-14-2008, 11:16 AM
Whhhhaaaaatttttt???

Please please please show me where Matt Roth was ever even considered a 1st rounder, let alone Top 15. Roth is one of the most overrated players on the team and hasn't performed anywhere near the 3rd round potential he was drafted.

He has played less than outstanding but i did see M Roth late late first early second round choice prior to the draft... I thought we got a steal at the time... :unsure:

MrEd
02-14-2008, 11:18 AM
Robert Gallery is exactly what comes to mind when I think of Jake Long. Not because of any sort of skillset that Long/Gallery posesses or because of any sort of physical comparison, but just because Gallery was such a "can't miss" prospect at left tackle and then just didn't work out at all. I don't actually mind Jake Long and I can't say that I would be terribly disappointed in the pick, but I'd much rather go defense at #1 and I'd way rather have Long than Matt Ryan.

What??? Unbelievable. Matt Ryan should be the "only" player MIA should be thinking of drafting. QB is the game's most important position. Mike Mayock, the only draftnik that I trust, has Matt Ryan as the draft's "premier" PLAYER. Period. And after watching film of the guy, he is the next Peyton Manning. Why would any team with the #1 overall pick and a need at QB want to pass up on the next Peyton? beats the heck out of me. :unsure:

zackattack54
02-14-2008, 11:19 AM
I do remember a couple of years back that Kiper had Mike Williams (wr usc) as the #1 rated player in the draft. WTH?

MrEd
02-14-2008, 11:19 AM
LOL....Everyones too "RISKY" in this years draft for the #1 pick....

I think we need a Tackle for Beck,cause Vernon doesn't get it done on the left,people even say Vernon would be better off playing OG,and we graft another tackle for the right side,like Nick from Nebraska,or Williams for Vanderbilt.Even if Jake plays RT,which I doubt cause he was only beat once by the left side by Vernon Gholston this year,enough said,Tony Sparano and Mike Maser are two great O-Line coaches,they can get Jake converted to LT by the season opener.Jake Long is the proto-typical LT,and he play just as good on the left,as the right.If we don't get him,I really do think we're missing out on the next Orlando Pace for the next 10-15 years.

Beck???? What the Heck! Beck???

Motion
02-14-2008, 11:19 AM
He has played less than outstanding but i did see M Roth late late first early second round choice prior to the draft... I thought we got a steal at the time... :unsure:

Understatement of the day. :wink:

Maybe I just don't remember those high draft grades or maybe his play has affected my opinion. :lol:

DOL-FAN92
02-14-2008, 11:20 AM
Whhhhaaaaatttttt???

Please please please show me where Matt Roth was ever even considered a 1st rounder, let alone Top 15. Roth is one of the most overrated players on the team and hasn't performed anywhere near the 3rd round potential he was drafted.

ummmmm.....Roth was drafted in the 2nd round,pick 13.....not the 3rd round,we,for some reason,drafted Channing Crowder

Motion
02-14-2008, 11:21 AM
What??? Unbelievable. Matt Ryan should be the "only" player MIA should be thinking of drafting. QB is the game's most important position. Mike Mayock, the only draftnik that I trust, has Matt Ryan as the draft's "premier" PLAYER. Period. And after watching film of the guy, he is the next Peyton Manning. Why would any team with the #1 overall pick and a need at QB want to pass up on the next Peyton? beats the heck out of me. :unsure:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

MrEd
02-14-2008, 11:21 AM
I don't give a flying rats *** what Kiper says, Jake Long is not the best player in the draft. It's Chris Long or Glenn Dorsey...end of discussion in my opinion.

Left tackle is a DEEP position in this draft. We can pass on Jake Long and still get a darn good tackle prospect at #32.

Mike Mayock said Matt Ryan is the best player in the draft.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 11:21 AM
I guess it depends on what stock u play. I dont look for draft analysis to see who we are going to pick, I want people to be able to evaluate players.

Also maybe I have a hazy memory I thought Boomer said that if we dont take Quinn dont be suprised if we take Ginn based on his visits but dont remember him saying we will take Ginn. I mean I could say that if we dont take Long then we will take Dorsey. I could care less about predicting the draft, I want to hear about the potential of guys taken.


I said, based on information gleaned from someone on this forum who really, truly did have an inside scoop until that person was sacked as part of the Parcells purge, that Quinn would be the pick. But I also wrote a long piece stating that if it wasn't Quinn then it would be Ginn based on what he brings to the table and the multiple (4) recorded visits between Miami and he.

The details of the visits were recorded at the time.

Motion
02-14-2008, 11:24 AM
ummmmm.....Roth was drafted in the 2nd round,pick 13.....not the 3rd round,we,for some reason,drafted Channing Crowder

Yeah, I remembered that after I posted. Proves my point of his poor play even more. For all the crap Channing gets, he's been a much better value than Roth.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 11:29 AM
Yep, you're the reason Boomer brought up Ginn. He says so right here:

http://www.dolphinsnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187697&highlight=Ted+Ginn+Boomer

:rolleyes2:


Well what do you know?

Boomer
02-14-2008, 11:36 AM
Meanwhile back at the point of this thread. Thanks to those who said nice things, but Mel Kiper does this 365 days a year. He's very, very knowledgeable about the thing he does for a living. As for Jake Long, I personally think he's better suited to being a RT because he's outstanding as a run blocker, when the play is in front of him, and because he's so strong, such a mauler. He can be a Jon Runyan, Jon Jansen type. What I do think is that despite a better year in 2007 in pass pro, I still think he struggles to get his feet out from under him at times, I think he's not quick enough to seal the edge and can look cumbersome as a pass blocker, mechanical and I think when consistently pressured by quick rush ends, he tends to get a little waisty and not uses his knees. He also doesn't have a particularly proficient kickslide, especially when put under consistent outside pressure.

If you're spending the first pick on him, you better make sure that you are 100% certain he's going to be a LT.

BUT.......if Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano think he can play on the left and God knows, they're a million times more qualified to make that judgement, then you have to think he's as likely as the other two.

BlueFin
02-14-2008, 11:38 AM
LOL....Everyones too "RISKY" in this years draft for the #1 pick....

I think we need a Tackle for Beck,cause Vernon doesn't get it done on the left,people even say Vernon would be better off playing OG,and we graft another tackle for the right side,like Nick from Nebraska,or Williams for Vanderbilt.Even if Jake plays RT,which I doubt cause he was only beat once by the left side by Vernon Gholston this year,enough said,Tony Sparano and Mike Maser are two great O-Line coaches,they can get Jake converted to LT by the season opener.Jake Long is the proto-typical LT,and he play just as good on the left,as the right.If we don't get him,I really do think we're missing out on the next Orlando Pace for the next 10-15 years.

Not at all, Glenn Dorsey and Chris Long are in my opinion can't miss impact defenders, barring injury they will have successful careers in the NFL.

Jake Long is in my opinion a sure thing to have an NFL career, but it might not be at Left Tackle, which is the only thing that would make him worth the #1 overall.

So no, I don't agree with you.

BlueFin
02-14-2008, 11:43 AM
Also, this draft is deep with Left Tackle Prospects, so there is no need to spend the #1 overall on a questionable left tackle prospect, not when we can do that with a later pick.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 11:47 AM
Also, this draft is deep with Left Tackle Prospects, so there is no need to spend the #1 overall on a questionable left tackle prospect, not when we can do that with a later pick.

Absolutely. Personally I think Miami would get outstanding, outstanding value with Anthony Collins at pick 32. He may well only be a junior, but he looks to me like he could start sooner rather than later and the upside is massive.

BlueFin
02-14-2008, 11:49 AM
Meanwhile back at the point of this thread. Thanks to those who said nice things, but Mel Kiper does this 365 days a year. He's very, very knowledgeable about the thing he does for a living. As for Jake Long, I personally think he's better suited to being a RT because he's outstanding as a run blocker, when the play is in front of him, and because he's so strong, such a mauler. He can be a Jon Tunyan, Jon Jansen type. What I do think is that despite a better year in 2007 in pass pro, I still think he struggles to get his feet out from under him at times, I think he's not quick enough to seal the edge and can look cumbersome as a pass blocker, mechanical and I think when consistently pressured by quick rush ends, he tends to get a little waisty and not uses his knees. He also doesn't have a particularly proficient kickslide, especially when put under consistent outside pressure.

If you're spending the first pick on him, you better make sure that you are 100% certain he's going to be a LT.

BUT.......if Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano think he can play on the left and God knows, they're a million times more qualified to make that judgement, then you have to think he's as likely as the other two.


Your very humble, I think your analysis is spot on in regards to Long.

Kiper , in my opinion, tends to let his draft board blow with the wind, versus what is perhaps his true opinion on the subject, which is my only problem with his ability.

The Confessor
02-14-2008, 11:52 AM
Absolutely. Personally I think Miami would get outstanding, outstanding value with Anthony Collins at pick 32. He may well only be a junior, but he looks to me like he could start sooner rather than later and the upside is massive.

I had seen somewhere that Collins stock was dropping (I know where but aint gonna say :up:)

I kindve like Gosder at the 32 if still there. Whats the comparison between the two?

BTW: Good to see you in a chipper mood this morning Boom :lol:

BlueFin
02-14-2008, 11:52 AM
Absolutely. Personally I think Miami would get outstanding, outstanding value with Anthony Collins at pick 32. He may well only be a junior, but he looks to me like he could start sooner rather than later and the upside is massive.

Do you like him as well or better than Chris Williams? And do you think Chris Williams will be gone by 32?

fishypete
02-14-2008, 11:53 AM
Meanwhile back at the point of this thread. Thanks to those who said nice things, but Mel Kiper does this 365 days a year. He's very, very knowledgeable about the thing he does for a living. As for Jake Long, I personally think he's better suited to being a RT because he's outstanding as a run blocker, when the play is in front of him, and because he's so strong, such a mauler. He can be a Jon Runyan, Jon Jansen type. What I do think is that despite a better year in 2007 in pass pro, I still think he struggles to get his feet out from under him at times, I think he's not quick enough to seal the edge and can look cumbersome as a pass blocker, mechanical and I think when consistently pressured by quick rush ends, he tends to get a little waisty and not uses his knees. He also doesn't have a particularly proficient kickslide, especially when put under consistent outside pressure.

If you're spending the first pick on him, you better make sure that you are 100% certain he's going to be a LT.

BUT.......if Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano think he can play on the left and God knows, they're a million times more qualified to make that judgement, then you have to think he's as likely as the other two.



If the Dolphins were going to be a pass first team I would agree with you...but thats not what Henning and Parcells teams are....they run....and having Jake Long play at LT would not be a mistake....he's a great run blocker...perhaps the best run blocking tackle that has come out in the last couple years. Of course your taking a risk when you have a top 5 pick...every player is a risk to a point.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 11:58 AM
Your very humble, I think your analysis is spot on in regards to Long.

Kiper , in my opinion, tends to let his draft board blow with the wind, versus what is perhaps his true opinion on the subject, which is my only problem with his ability.


I'm really not humble. I'm just honest. I'm a guy that watches a lot of tapes, knows what I'm looking for and then uses the resources that we all have available to back up my analysis. It's not hard to find out whether a kid has good character, or to check out how he played as a JUCO. And if you know who you're talking to or even who you hope you're talking to, a quick e-mail to the right person, be it a journalist or an area scout at a college or even at a kids' high school will furnish you with all sorts of information. You learn to know what you're looking for in each case. The ability to play left tackle well hasn't changed since I scouted Walter Jones or whomever. You're still looking at the same stuff. Occasionally kids will jump out at you that you don't even watch. Often they're underclassmen and you asterisk next to their name, you research whether they're likely to jump out and then you can return to them when they do. A guy like Darry Beckwith at LSU is like that. Jumps out at you on film.

You watch DB's to see if they can live on an island or whether they're going to play zone. It's not hard to tell. You watch McKelvin as I did against OSU and you know he can play man. You watch Aqib Talib against Kansas State and you know he's more suited to play cover 2. You watch Talib some more and you wonder would he transition to safety? So how does he tackle? Hmmm. He's not Reggie Smith when it comes to tackling. So he might not be a safety. It's easy stuff.

But I have a job and a family and I do this when I can, usually after the family have gone to bed. Most nights after the season I tend to watch a couple of hours tape between about 11 and 1. Sometimes that's not possible, so you catch up when you can.

And as for Mel, I will always defend him to the hilt. As he rightly says, we're at the halfway point in the draft season. I fully expect his board to be a mix and match at the moment. But when you look back at his mid season prospectus, which is my yearly bible, he's pretty damn square on year after year after year.

emocomputerjock
02-14-2008, 11:58 AM
If the Dolphins were going to be a pass first team I would agree with you...but thats not what Henning and Parcells teams are....they run....and having Jake Long play at LT would not be a mistake....he's a great run blocker...perhaps the best run blocking tackle that has come out in the last couple years. Of course your taking a risk when you have a top 5 pick...every player is a risk to a point.

The LT spot is more of a pass blocking spot.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 12:04 PM
I had seen somewhere that Collins stock was dropping (I know where but aint gonna say :up:)

I'd be surprised if that was true at this stage.


I kindve like Gosder at the 32 if still there. Whats the comparison between the two?

Gosder is a RT ideally. Collins is big, strong, balanced, with great hands, good knee bend. He needs some work on his feet in pass pro, but it's refining rather than anything. And he's a mauler, with bog long arms who just neutralises rushers with his wings. Gosder is big and powerful, again big wings, a slapper at times. But he's not quick enough as a LT IMO. Sam Baker is another absolute pick 32 diamond.




BTW: Good to see you in a chipper mood this morning Boom :lol:

You know, I get SO bored of this nonsense year after year after year.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Do you like him as well or better than Chris Williams? And do you think Chris Williams will be gone by 32?

I think they're right in that mix with Baker in group 2, just behind Otah - who was the best LT I saw this year, Clady - whose drum I was banging 12 months ago on this site and Jake Long.

I think Williams probably will be gone.

Boomer
02-14-2008, 12:06 PM
If the Dolphins were going to be a pass first team I would agree with you...but thats not what Henning and Parcells teams are....they run....and having Jake Long play at LT would not be a mistake....he's a great run blocker...perhaps the best run blocking tackle that has come out in the last couple years. Of course your taking a risk when you have a top 5 pick...every player is a risk to a point.


For sure. But they're going to pass the ball at some stage. And like I said, the decision is Jeff and Tony's. If they think he's the man, then he's the man.

Ghetti13
02-14-2008, 12:08 PM
In defense of Boomer, it is quite obvious to me that he breaks down tape and comes to his own conclusions. I know this because he says things that the media has never mentioned but prove true based on what I see when I break down the same player. Those are the people I want to hear from.

Personally, I am not interested in the person who looks at the stats or simply regurgitates what he hears from the media, relying therefore primarily on name calling. That happens quite a bit and it really brings down the quality of conversation around here.

Also, back to Boomer, there is a big difference between saying Miami will draft a player and saying he would draft a player. I do recall him being very high on Cromartie, and I also recall him feeling pretty good that Miami would take Allen. Those are two different things.

Plus, there is little doubt that Boomer has an excellent track record with regards to providing us with inside information. In fact, much of the reason I am on this site is because he and a few others challenge me with ideas and info that are outside of the main stream.

Keep up the good work Boomer.

By the way. Jake Long is highly overrated and Glenn Dorsey could excel as the nose tackle in a Parcells style 3-4 team. In fact, he would be my pick if I were calling the shots.

fishypete
02-14-2008, 12:10 PM
For sure. But they're going to pass the ball at some stage. And like I said, the decision is Jeff and Tony's. If they think he's the man, then he's the man.

I agree with you Boomer....he's far good enough to play at LT...and it is up to the Dolphins to figure that out.:lol:

Motion
02-14-2008, 12:11 PM
I would like to suggest that everyone stays on topic and not make things personal. Everyone has their own opinions, especially at draft time. Calling out other members for their opinions on past drafts is not necessary. Consider this a friendly warning. :D

Ghetti13
02-14-2008, 12:13 PM
I would be extremely disappointed if Miami chose to draft Jake Long. I just don't see how they could justify it based on what I have seen when breaking down his game.

dlockz
02-14-2008, 05:51 PM
I said, based on information gleaned from someone on this forum who really, truly did have an inside scoop until that person was sacked as part of the Parcells purge, that Quinn would be the pick. But I also wrote a long piece stating that if it wasn't Quinn then it would be Ginn based on what he brings to the table and the multiple (4) recorded visits between Miami and he.

The details of the visits were recorded at the time.


Basically what I thought you said. I thought you were probably right on although i never thought Quinn would fall that far and still think that should have been our pick. I was just correcting that u said we were definately taking Ginn because u still thought we were going to take Quinn much like most people that were trying to guess what teams were picking. Both you and Mel were of the same opinion but yet somebody once again takes a crack at Kiper saying that he was a buffoon for thinking we made a mistake in not taking Quinn or that he predicted us to take Ginn. 90 percent or more fans and prognosticators thought we were taking Quinn with that pick, thus the shock when we passed, as evidenced by the chorus of boos that Cameron got announcing the pick. I personally think that Quinn at 9 was a good value pick regardless of where he ended up getting drafted. He was not the first guy that should have been top 10 to fall and not really deserve it. Steven Jackson, Deauce Macallister, Matt Leinhart, Randy Moss, Terrel Suggs
and Drew Brees fell well beyond where they should have gone but people wanted to act like our passing of Quinn was justified because other teams passed. I dont agree with everything that Kiper says but he is a very knowlegable guy that too many on this board try to dismiss as just a chump.
He is not where he is because he doesn't know anything and Im sure You, me or anyone else on this board would not mind being in his position.
Even though in the past we have had disagreements and I sometimes think you are too sensitive(not thick skinned enough is maybe a better word) I always look forward to your posts because I do think that you make a great effort to be as knowledgable as possible on what you post. i truly prefer your takes on what these guys will do as opposed to who will take them. I hope you dont take this an attack because I truly do that mean this as such. I look forward to alot of opinions on this board, I just think more people should be open to other's opinions and not so quick to attack. I have been attacked as being too negative although if anybody can recall most of my takes have been quite accurate. I look forward to your takes on the prospects this year as any other year as well as opinions of other's on this board with maybe a few exceptions lol.

Brad528
02-14-2008, 07:07 PM
LT is the second most important position when building a team that is why they are the second highest paid position. Jake Long is a Pace type prospect if you actually watched him. Dont believe everything you hear you have to see for yourself cause alot of these so called scouts and media members dont even watch the games nor the tape. Sure if you have some friends who work for NFL teams then maybe they know but not most. He would have been the first linemen taking last year if he came out and look where Thomas went as well as Brown from Penn State. Both players lost to him as Linemen of the Year last season. This season he only gave up one sack and had no penalties

Boomer
02-14-2008, 07:24 PM
LT is the second most important position when building a team that is why they are the second highest paid position. Jake Long is a Pace type prospect if you actually watched him. Dont believe everything you hear you have to see for yourself cause alot of these so called scouts and media members dont even watch the games nor the tape. Sure if you have some friends who work for NFL teams then maybe they know but not most. He would have been the first linemen taking last year if he came out and look where Thomas went as well as Brown from Penn State. Both players lost to him as Linemen of the Year last season. This season he only gave up one sack and had no penalties

Jake Long is NOT a Pace type prospect and it's ludicrous to assume otherwise.

Oh and I watch the tapes.

Fresh
02-14-2008, 07:54 PM
Todd McShay referred to him as a "left tackle" on Sports Center just a minute ago too.

dlockz
02-14-2008, 07:59 PM
I think Jake Long is a much better LT prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college.

SR 7
02-14-2008, 08:24 PM
Carey was considred a T/G prospect. More of a G adn even to this day for some raeson they say that. I think hes a great RT he might be an amazing G but T is where he shoudl stay I believe.

SR 7
02-14-2008, 08:26 PM
[quote=Boomer;1062315849]

You watch DB's to see if they can live on an island or whether they're going to play zone. It's not hard to tell. You watch McKelvin as I did against OSU and you know he can play man. You watch Aqib Talib against Kansas State and you know he's more suited to play cover 2. You watch Talib some more and you wonder would he transition to safety? So how does he tackle? Hmmm. He's not Reggie Smith when it comes to tackling. So he might not be a safety. It's easy stuff.

quote]

whatever happened to King you were so high on? I see mocks of him falling to the third round, I'm sure the combine will ressurect him a bit but not sure back up to the top 15 potential that you projected him. I think he will be a steal in the 2nd esp. if he falls somehow to the 3rd.

dlockz
02-14-2008, 08:33 PM
Carey was considred a T/G prospect. More of a G adn even to this day for some raeson they say that. I think hes a great RT he might be an amazing G but T is where he shoudl stay I believe.

He was alos considered quite a reach when we took him

The Confessor
02-14-2008, 08:45 PM
He was alos considered quite a reach when we took him

Actually, I dont think that is the truth at all.

From the beginning of the draft Carey was projected anywhere from 12-32. We indeed picked him 19 and wouldve probably passed on him if Shawn Andrews hadve not been taken by the Iggles at 16, but to say he was considered quite a reach is not accurate at all

dlockz
02-14-2008, 09:02 PM
Actually, I dont think that is the truth at all.

From the beginning of the draft Carey was projected anywhere from 12-32. We indeed picked him 19 and wouldve probably passed on him if Shawn Andrews hadve not been taken by the Iggles at 16, but to say he was considered quite a reach is not accurate at all


Carey was considered a late first round to early second round pick by most draft gurus. We took him early because there were no other worthy tackle prospects left on board. It all depends on perception, some people did not think Ginn was a reach but he was not projected to go that high. On the other hand Quinn was projected to go quite higher and fell to the twenties so where they are projected to go matters little.

Geforce
02-14-2008, 09:47 PM
Carey was considered a late first round to early second round pick by most draft gurus. We took him early because there were no other worthy tackle prospects left on board. It all depends on perception, some people did not think Ginn was a reach but he was not projected to go that high. On the other hand Quinn was projected to go quite higher and fell to the twenties so where they are projected to go matters little.

Take this for what it's worth
Vernon Carey - First Round Material
http://www.allcanes.com/articles/0404_Carey_FirstRound.html


With the NFL Draft two weeks away, Carey has found his way on to many teams’ wish lists. Miami (at #20), Dallas (at #22) and Carolina (at #31) all like him in the first round and love his size, speed and instinct. Baltimore (at #51) prays Carey slips to the middle of the second round, but knows that chance is slim to none.

At Miami’s on campus Pro Day on February 28th, Carey did 30 reps in the strength lift, ran the 40-yard dash at an average time of 5.33, had a long jump of 7-foot-5, had a 28 inch vertical, benched 225 lbs. 30 times, recorded a 5.0 in the short shuttle and 8.20 in the three-cone drill.

dlockz
02-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Take this for what it's worth
Vernon Carey - First Round Material
http://www.allcanes.com/articles/0404_Carey_FirstRound.html


U could find many quotes where he was rated lower also. All draft boards are differant.

Geforce
02-14-2008, 09:59 PM
U could find many quotes where he was rated lower also. All draft boards are differant.

Of course all draft boards are different but that doesn't mean he was quite a reach where the Dolphins drafted him.

PhinsTD
02-15-2008, 01:32 AM
Carey went about the earliest he could have reasonably expected to go at the time he was drafted. I wouldn't say he was considered a reach, or that he went earlier than expected. I would just say that #20 (he went 19 due to that stupid trade I know) was about the absolute best he could have hoped for on that day...

dlockz
02-15-2008, 07:23 AM
here are some examples I dont remember any sources rating Carey that high
first scott wright of nfl countdown

. New York Giants (f/SD): Eli Manning, QB, Ole Miss
2. Oakland Raiders: Robert Gallery, OT, Iowa
3. Arizona Cardinals: Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pittsburgh
4. San Diego Chargers (f/NYG): Philip Rivers, QB, North Carolina St.
5. Washington Redskins: Sean Taylor, S, Miami (FL)
6. Detroit Lions: Roy Williams, WR, Texas
7. Cleveland Browns: Kellen Winslow Jr, TE, Miami (FL)
8. Atlanta Falcons: DeAngelo Hall, CB, Virginia Tech
9. Jacksonville Jaguars: Kenechi Udeze, DE, U.S.C.
10. Houston Texans: Dunta Robinson, CB, South Carolina
11. Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Miami (FL)
12. New York Jets: Jonathan Vilma, ILB, Miami (FL)
13. Buffalo Bills: Lee Evans, WR, Wisconsin
14. Chicago Bears: Tommie Harris, DT, Oklahoma
15. Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Michael Clayton, WR, L.S.U.
16. San Francisco 49'ers: Rashaun Woods, WR, Oklahoma St.
17. Denver Broncos (f/CIN): Steven Jackson, RB, Oregon St.
18. New Orleans Saints: D.J. Williams, OLB, Miami (FL)
19. Minnesota Vikings: Will Smith, DE, Ohio St.
20. Miami Dolphins: Reggie Williams, WR, Washington
21. New England Patriots (f/BAL): Marcus Tubbs, DT, Texas
22. Dallas Cowboys: Shawn Andrews, OT-OG, Arkansas
23. Seattle Seahawks: Vince Wilfork, DT, Miami (FL)
24. Cincinnati Bengals, (f/DEN): Chris Gamble, CB, Ohio St.
25. Green Bay Packers: J.P. Losman, QB, Tulane
26. St. Louis Rams: Antwan Odom, DE, Alabama
27. Tennessee Titans: Darnell Dockett, DT, Florida St.
28. Philadelphia Eagles: Kevin Jones, RB, Virginia Tech
29. Indianapolis Colts: Karlos Dansby, OLB, Auburn
30. Kansas City Chiefs: Terry Johnson, DT, Washington
31. Carolina Panthers: Matt Ware, CB-S, U.C.L.A.
32. New England Patriots: Justin Smiley, OG, Alabama


From SI
32 http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/02/patriots_30-1.gifT Vernon Carey Miami (Fla.) 6'5" 360Sr. Mea culpa: Va. Tech's Jake Grove was slotted here; Pats fans were quick to remind me Dan Koppen will be the O-line anchor for many years. Carey can play guard or tackle, as needed

Boomer
02-15-2008, 07:24 AM
Todd McShay referred to him as a "left tackle" on Sports Center just a minute ago too.

Just because you have a picture of Marlowe in your avatar doesn't mean to say I'm taking it easy on you kid.

;)

Boomer
02-15-2008, 07:33 AM
[quote=Boomer;1062315849]

You watch DB's to see if they can live on an island or whether they're going to play zone. It's not hard to tell. You watch McKelvin as I did against OSU and you know he can play man. You watch Aqib Talib against Kansas State and you know he's more suited to play cover 2. You watch Talib some more and you wonder would he transition to safety? So how does he tackle? Hmmm. He's not Reggie Smith when it comes to tackling. So he might not be a safety. It's easy stuff.

quote]

whatever happened to King you were so high on? I see mocks of him falling to the third round, I'm sure the combine will ressurect him a bit but not sure back up to the top 15 potential that you projected him. I think he will be a steal in the 2nd esp. if he falls somehow to the 3rd.

Yep, earlier in the season I thought he'd grade out as the number one, but he had a difficult time against James Hardy and his game didn't match up at the elite level that I expected after that. He certainly didn't play to his 2006 form where most thought he would be the top ranked candidate. But there were a number of factors. His sophomore year, they played a lot of bump and run at CB and he did very well and he backed that up earlier in the year. But die to a combination of poor play at safety and Justin suffering a nasty shoulder injury, Penn State shifted to zone coverage, which lessened his impact.

Anyone who watched him as a sophomore year shutting down Ginn and Meacham and Shaun Herbert would know what I was talking about. Shift on a year and see how the system forced him to play against Brian Robiskie; against Ginn in 2006 he tracked him all around the field and held him to 2 catches. In 2007 he played in a deep zone.

But then you know that didn't you scoop.

Boomer
02-15-2008, 07:36 AM
He was alos considered quite a reach when we took him

He really wasn't at all.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 07:46 AM
He really wasn't at all.

Thats your opinion but does not make it so. Most sources had Carey late first round to early second. Some people thought Ginn was a reach some did not.
Its all just opinions one way or another. Carey was considered somewhat of an undeacheiver and a slow learner in college and had played almost no left tackle . One game when Mckinnie was hurt.

Boomer
02-15-2008, 08:27 AM
Thats your opinion but does not make it so. Most sources had Carey late first round to early second. Some people thought Ginn was a reach some did not.
Its all just opinions one way or another. Carey was considered somewhat of an undeacheiver and a slow learner in college and had played almost no left tackle . One game when Mckinnie was hurt.


Ginn was to be selected with the very next pick by Houston. The Patriots tried to trade above us to get Carey. That's not a reach in my book.

Geforce
02-15-2008, 11:05 AM
here are some examples I dont remember any sources rating Carey that high
first scott wright of nfl countdown

. New York Giants (f/SD): Eli Manning, QB, Ole Miss
2. Oakland Raiders: Robert Gallery, OT, Iowa
3. Arizona Cardinals: Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pittsburgh
4. San Diego Chargers (f/NYG): Philip Rivers, QB, North Carolina St.
5. Washington Redskins: Sean Taylor, S, Miami (FL)
6. Detroit Lions: Roy Williams, WR, Texas
7. Cleveland Browns: Kellen Winslow Jr, TE, Miami (FL)
8. Atlanta Falcons: DeAngelo Hall, CB, Virginia Tech
9. Jacksonville Jaguars: Kenechi Udeze, DE, U.S.C.
10. Houston Texans: Dunta Robinson, CB, South Carolina
11. Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Miami (FL)
12. New York Jets: Jonathan Vilma, ILB, Miami (FL)
13. Buffalo Bills: Lee Evans, WR, Wisconsin
14. Chicago Bears: Tommie Harris, DT, Oklahoma
15. Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Michael Clayton, WR, L.S.U.
16. San Francisco 49'ers: Rashaun Woods, WR, Oklahoma St.
17. Denver Broncos (f/CIN): Steven Jackson, RB, Oregon St.
18. New Orleans Saints: D.J. Williams, OLB, Miami (FL)
19. Minnesota Vikings: Will Smith, DE, Ohio St.
20. Miami Dolphins: Reggie Williams, WR, Washington
21. New England Patriots (f/BAL): Marcus Tubbs, DT, Texas
22. Dallas Cowboys: Shawn Andrews, OT-OG, Arkansas
23. Seattle Seahawks: Vince Wilfork, DT, Miami (FL)
24. Cincinnati Bengals, (f/DEN): Chris Gamble, CB, Ohio St.
25. Green Bay Packers: J.P. Losman, QB, Tulane
26. St. Louis Rams: Antwan Odom, DE, Alabama
27. Tennessee Titans: Darnell Dockett, DT, Florida St.
28. Philadelphia Eagles: Kevin Jones, RB, Virginia Tech
29. Indianapolis Colts: Karlos Dansby, OLB, Auburn
30. Kansas City Chiefs: Terry Johnson, DT, Washington
31. Carolina Panthers: Matt Ware, CB-S, U.C.L.A.
32. New England Patriots: Justin Smiley, OG, Alabama


From SI
32 http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2008/02/patriots_30-1.gifT Vernon Carey Miami (Fla.) 6'5" 360Sr. Mea culpa: Va. Tech's Jake Grove was slotted here; Pats fans were quick to remind me Dan Koppen will be the O-line anchor for many years. Carey can play guard or tackle, as needed


So you are using mock drafts as your reason for saying Carey was a reach at #19? Umm...okay.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 11:13 AM
So you are using mock drafts as your reason for saying Carey was a reach at #19? Umm...okay.

Not only that, but any other mock showing Carey as going at a different spot he dismisses as just another mock draft. Duplicitous, but par for the course.

zach8111
02-15-2008, 11:20 AM
i dont know if he is a RT or a LT. from what i have seen he is a beast, and i am an ohio state fan. But with me seeing vernon gholston dominate him in the ohio state- michigan game. chances are that gholston could get drafted by either pats or jets...a good chance, and i dont know if i like that. with that said i definately dont think he is number 1 overall, especially since the OT class is DEEP this year, I 'd rather take chris long, dorsey and even ryan over jake, and i am a big supporter of Beck.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 02:24 PM
Not only that, but any other mock showing Carey as going at a different spot he dismisses as just another mock draft. Duplicitous, but par for the course.



What mock draft did I dismiss. The only mocks that showed Carey were the ones that I showed. I said clearly you might have some boards that had Carey going higher but the vast majority of mocks had him as a late first round to high second round pick. What mock did I dismiss and my opinion was not just based on mocks I was just showing an example. Nobody showed any proof of how teams had these guys rated. Minnesota admitted that they bamboozled us into trading up and no other team confirmed that they was going to trade up and get him. NE was not going to choose him over Vince Wilfork for sure. Shane Andrews had just went off the board and we somewhat overdrafted Carey because our GM went into panic mode. When it comes to the term reach its somewhat speculative, we needed a lineman and we took him slightly early. Much like this year with Ginn, nobody had Ginn rated to go this high but he was the next best player on offense that was not a running back so thats who we took since we liked him better than Quinn. Carey was very highly touted coming out of high school and somewhat less highly touted coming out of college. I love some on this board we disagree and no facts are shown that disprove me but my take gets attacked without any proof that I am incorrect. Not one draft source that I checked that year had Carey going that high. Sometimes players go higher when teams draft by need rather than BPA and that year we went by need. Most people thought we reached somehwhat on Ginn this year and almost no mock from any reputable source had him going this high. As for Houston picking him, its possible but I dont really buy it being that they had a great special teams player already and had much greater needs than WR. I'm pretty sure if Okaye is there and Ginn is there they still take Okaye. If you disagree with me fine but to bash my take is baseless especially the comment about me be duplicitous and thats par for the course for me. I tryed to support my argument and I get attacked for it, now thats funny. I never once attacked anyone's opinion, I only disagreed with it. Just because an opinion is not as popular on our board as others make it no less accurate or viable. Scott Wright and Mel Kiper as well as the majority of so called gurus had him rated to be drafted late first or early second.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 02:34 PM
So you are using mock drafts as your reason for saying Carey was a reach at #19? Umm...okay.

I used that to show where people had him graded. Please show me any actual draft boards that any of us are privy to. Nobody on this board has produced any to this point. What else could I show to try to show the point that most draft gurus had him rated as a late first round to early first round pick. I'm curious , really give me a valid answer. I guess with your logic we can never say that anyone is a reach since none of us know the inner workings of these NFL teams. So if we take Matt Ryan lets not hear any comments about reach. Teams were not sure if Carey was a guard or a tackle at the NFL level and most teams were not sold on him as being a left tackle since he only played one game there in college. He was supposed to be Mckinnie's replacement but ended up playing RT and guard for Miami.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 02:48 PM
What mock draft did I dismiss. The only mocks that showed Carey were the ones that I showed. I said clearly you might have some boards that had Carey going higher but the vast majority of mocks had him as a late first round to high second round pick. What mock did I dismiss and my opinion was not just based on mocks I was just showing an example. Nobody showed any proof of how teams had these guys rated. Minnesota admitted that they bamboozled us into trading up and no other team confirmed that they was going to trade up and get him. NE was not going to choose him over Vince Wilfork for sure. Shane Andrews had just went off the board and we somewhat overdrafted Carey because our GM went into panic mode. When it comes to the term reach its somewhat speculative, we needed a lineman and we took him slightly early. Much like this year with Ginn, nobody had Ginn rated to go this high but he was the next best player on offense that was not a running back so thats who we took since we liked him better than Quinn. Carey was very highly touted coming out of high school and somewhat less highly touted coming out of college. I love some on this board we disagree and no facts are shown that disprove me but my take gets attacked without any proof that I am incorrect. Not one draft source that I checked that year had Carey going that high. Sometimes players go higher when teams draft by need rather than BPA and that year we went by need. Most people thought we reached somehwhat on Ginn this year and almost no mock from any reputable source had him going this high. As for Houston picking him, its possible but I dont really buy it being that they had a great special teams player already and had much greater needs than WR. I'm pretty sure if Okaye is there and Ginn is there they still take Okaye. If you disagree with me fine but to bash my take is baseless especially the comment about me be duplicitous and thats par for the course for me. I tryed to support my argument and I get attacked for it, now thats funny. I never once attacked anyone's opinion, I only disagreed with it. Just because an opinion is not as popular on our board as others make it no less accurate or viable. Scott Wright and Mel Kiper as well as the majority of so called gurus had him rated to be drafted late first or early second.


U could find many quotes where he was rated lower also. All draft boards are differant.

Right there is where you dismissed it. You then proceeded to follow that up with posts of other draft boards!

You also neglect the fact that the Pats were going to trade up to get him.

Just face the facts - Carey was drafted at 19, and that's where he went and it was a good deal.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Right there is where you dismissed it. You then proceeded to follow that up with posts of other draft boards!

You also neglect the fact that the Pats were going to trade up to get him.

Just face the facts - Carey was drafted at 19, and that's where he went and it was a good deal.

Minnesota admitted that they bluffed us about NE moving up to that pick. I guess you did not get the memo. That report was false and thier GM admitted it. As it turned out the pick of Carey at 19n was not a bad pick but that has nothing to do whether he was a reach at the time. Tim Bowens was a huge reach when we drafted him but it turned out great. Wade Smith was a major reach in the third round and we all know how that turned out.
I did not dismiss it I said that they were all differant and u might find a few that had him rated where we picked him. I research over 20 well respected sites each year and cannot recall one having him go to us or earlier than about 24th. I guess no team has ever reached on a player by your logic because once they get picked there they are not a reach. This was not a debate about whether Carey has turned into a good NFL Player. My only complaint when we drafted Carey was that we gave away a 4th round pick because we were idiots and I was proven right by the Minnesota GM. We needed a lineman and I understand supply and demand might outweigh best player available at times.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 03:21 PM
Minnesota admitted that they bluffed us about NE moving up to that pick. I guess you did not get the memo. That report was false and thier GM admitted it. As it turned out the pick of Carey at 19n was not a bad pick but that has nothing to do whether he was a reach at the time. Tim Bowens was a huge reach when we drafted him but it turned out great. Wade Smith was a major reach in the third round and we all know how that turned out.
I did not dismiss it I said that they were all differant and u might find a few that had him rated where we picked him. I research over 20 well respected sites each year and cannot recall one having him go to us or earlier than about 24th. I guess no team has ever reached on a player by your logic because once they get picked there they are not a reach. This was not a debate about whether Carey has turned into a good NFL Player. My only complaint when we drafted Carey was that we gave away a 4th round pick because we were idiots and I was proven right by the Minnesota GM. We needed a lineman and I understand supply and demand might outweigh best player available at times.

Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 03:41 PM
Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.

You cannot say with any certainty that the Pats would have chose Carey over Wilfork. At 20 Carey by most self proclaimed gurus was a reach,obvuously we wanted Carey, that does not prove he was not a reach.
You have no proof that NE was going to take Carey especially with Wilfork on the board. Im pretty sure even Boomer did not have Carey rated higher than Wilfork. I still stand by that we should have taken Wilfork in the draft that year but Carey has been fine. Please though find anyone that had Carey rated over Wilfork as a prospect. And please tell me that it was smart move to trade up one spot to get a guy that was going to be there at 20 anyway.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 03:49 PM
You cannot say with any certainty that the Pats would have chose Carey over Wilfork. At 20 Carey by most self proclaimed gurus was a reach,obvuously we wanted Carey, that does not prove he was not a reach.
You have no proof that NE was going to take Carey especially with Wilfork on the board. Im pretty sure even Boomer did not have Carey rated higher than Wilfork. I still stand by that we should have taken Wilfork in the draft that year but Carey has been fine. Please though find anyone that had Carey rated over Wilfork as a prospect. And please tell me that it was smart move to trade up one spot to get a guy that was going to be there at 20 anyway.

Levi Jones was a reach. Ted Ginn was not a reach. Vernon Carey was not a reach.

You still haven't addressed the issue that the trade up of one spot to get Carey was a decision predicated by the front office believing that the Pats were going to trade up to get them. That's the information they had to work with, and that's what they made their decision on. One spot does not constitute a reach. That's why Levi Jones is a reach, and Ted Ginn and Vernon Carey are not.

fishypete
02-15-2008, 03:54 PM
Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.

Come on...defending Wanny on a bluff?

fishypete
02-15-2008, 03:55 PM
Levi Jones was a reach. Ted Ginn was not a reach. Vernon Carey was not a reach.

You still haven't addressed the issue that the trade up of one spot to get Carey was a decision predicated by the front office believing that the Pats were going to trade up to get them. That's the information they had to work with, and that's what they made their decision on. One spot does not constitute a reach. That's why Levi Jones is a reach, and Ted Ginn and Vernon Carey are not.

Ginn not a reach? :lol:

dlockz
02-15-2008, 03:55 PM
Ginn was to be selected with the very next pick by Houston. The Patriots tried to trade above us to get Carey. That's not a reach in my book.


Being in the know as much as you are supposed to be, I know you remember that report was false and Minny just bluffed us out of a pick. There was no attempt to move up by NE. In fact NE basically ignored oline in that draft so if they wanted a lineman so bad, wouldn't they have drafted one. Thier first 4 picks were defense and there were some solid oline prospects they could have drafted. I think people that think that NE was so set on Carey just base that on Minnesota's bluff because its fairly strange of a team that needs oline help to totally bypass it in draft just because one player goes off the board. They could have drafted Max Starks, Travelle Wharton Sean locklear, Jacob Bell or Rex Hadnot. There is not one shred of evidence that NE was interested in Carey, not that we could produce evidence on anything on this board but I do find it strange that a team would look OL in the first and ignore thereafter.

fishypete
02-15-2008, 03:58 PM
Ginn was to be selected with the very next pick by Houston. The Patriots tried to trade above us to get Carey. That's not a reach in my book.

I wish Houston was as smart as Wanny....and I would have taken Wilford if they did take Carey.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 04:03 PM
Being in the know as much as you are supposed to be, I know you remember that report was false and Minny just bluffed us out of a pick. There was no attempt to move up by NE. In fact NE basically ignored oline in that draft so if they wanted a lineman so bad, wouldn't they have drafted one. Thier first 4 picks were defense and there were some solid oline prospects they could have drafted. I think people that think that NE was so set on Carey just base that on Minnesota's bluff because its fairly strange of a team that needs oline help to totally bypass it in draft just because one player goes off the board. They could have drafted Max Starks, Travelle Wharton Sean locklear, Jacob Bell or Rex Hadnot. There is not one shred of evidence that NE was interested in Carey, not that we could produce evidence on anything on this board but I do find it strange that a team would look OL in the first and ignore thereafter.

Mmhmm. Ben Watson, that famous defensive player. Not to mention, that several "legitimate" sites you mention had the Patriots taking Vernon Carey, and that several others mentioned a possible trade up scenario...whyever for? Some even had Carey moving off the board at 19 to the Vikings with the original pick. Why you can't just let this go after close to 4 years of being wrong and called on it yearly is beyond me.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 04:08 PM
Ginn not a reach? :lol:

If Ginn was projected to go within the first 15 picks, just outside of the 10, and we took him at 9 and Houston was going to select him at 10, tell me how we reached.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 04:10 PM
I wish Houston was as smart as Wanny....and I would have taken Wilford if they did take Carey.

There is no proof or good evidence that Houston was going to take Ginn. Everybody thought we were taking Quinn and we know how that turned out.
Im not sure why Houston would have been looking so hard at Ginn when they had much bigger needs. They definately had no need at that point for a returnman. I truly believe that if we had taken Quinn that Houston would have still taken Okaye and have seen no evidence to the contrary. Just because someone says something on this board does not make it a fact, just thier take. I'm open to any facts being presented but its just my opinion against thiers with the exception the NE trade rumor which was admitted by Minny as a bluff.Wilford was a better prospect to most people. I guarantee that Boomer had him rated as a better prospect than carey. Besides our front office I dont think you could find one place where wilfork was rated lower than Carey.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 04:21 PM
If Ginn was projected to go within the first 15 picks, just outside of the 10, and we took him at 9 and Houston was going to select him at 10, tell me how we reached.


How do u know that Houston was going to take Ginn, because someone on this board said so. Most draft experts had him going around the 15th pick. St louis was considered a possibility, Pittsburgh and Tennesse was mentioned quite often.

emocomputerjock
02-15-2008, 04:30 PM
How do u know that Houston was going to take Ginn, because someone on this board said so. Most draft experts had him going around the 15th pick. St louis was considered a possibility, Pittsburgh and Tennesse was mentioned quite often.

Well, isn't every draft board different? :up: Some sites, depending on the prior draft order, had him going as early as 7 to the Vikings. The majority had him going in the top 15, the 2nd WR overall, (where he went) and yes, I trust Boomer's sources on the Houston story.

Mile High Fin
02-15-2008, 05:22 PM
emocomputerjock = :clap:

It's nice to read an objective voice of reason....
Good work.

I can confirm your accounts of Vernon Carey's draft status, and Ginn's.
I read up, and follow the draft closely every year, and you're absolutely correct.
The most you could say is that Carey and/or Ginn were slight reaches, but even that's hard to support.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 05:54 PM
Mmhmm. Ben Watson, that famous defensive player. Not to mention, that several "legitimate" sites you mention had the Patriots taking Vernon Carey, and that several others mentioned a possible trade up scenario...whyever for? Some even had Carey moving off the board at 19 to the Vikings with the original pick. Why you can't just let this go after close to 4 years of being wrong and called on it yearly is beyond me.

I was talking about offensive linemen. New England did not draft one lineman in that draft. I love how we both have opinions but somehow mine is wrong. If New England wanted Carey so bad how come they did not draft a lineman.
You cannot find any evidence of a trade of scenario that was never proposed.Minnesota's Gm admitted to the bluff but thats not good enough, are you sure you are not Dave Wannstadt Please tell me why Minnesota would have drafted Carey, when they needed DL more. Udeze was alos rated higher than Carey by almost every source except the unmentioned ones you choose to believe. Minnesta took two De's before they drafted Dorsey in the 4th round. What I'm wrong because you say I'm wrong lol. When have you or anybody else called me on something I was so wrong on. Just because some people on a message board believe something does not make it so. At one time most people thought that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was an immenient danger.

SR 7
02-15-2008, 06:51 PM
[quote=SR 7;1062317711]

Yep, earlier in the season I thought he'd grade out as the number one, but he had a difficult time against James Hardy and his game didn't match up at the elite level that I expected after that. He certainly didn't play to his 2006 form where most thought he would be the top ranked candidate. But there were a number of factors. His sophomore year, they played a lot of bump and run at CB and he did very well and he backed that up earlier in the year. But die to a combination of poor play at safety and Justin suffering a nasty shoulder injury, Penn State shifted to zone coverage, which lessened his impact.

Anyone who watched him as a sophomore year shutting down Ginn and Meacham and Shaun Herbert would know what I was talking about. Shift on a year and see how the system forced him to play against Brian Robiskie; against Ginn in 2006 he tracked him all around the field and held him to 2 catches. In 2007 he played in a deep zone.

But then you know that didn't you scoop.

ya i noticed that (deep zone) as ive noticed samuels plays taht as well.

What is But then you know that didnt you scoop" mean?

SR 7
02-15-2008, 06:53 PM
Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.

he said Minny lied about it. he didnt asnwer that question of urs he didnt dismiss it.

SR 7
02-15-2008, 06:55 PM
How do u know that Houston was going to take Ginn, because someone on this board said so. Most draft experts had him going around the 15th pick. St louis was considered a possibility, Pittsburgh and Tennesse was mentioned quite often.

it was MENTIONED during the draft i believe it was or right after it that they wanted Ginn.

JT#1
02-15-2008, 07:05 PM
How do u know that Houston was going to take Ginn, because someone on this board said so. Most draft experts had him going around the 15th pick. St louis was considered a possibility, Pittsburgh and Tennesse was mentioned quite often.
The NFL insider for the NFL network , his first name is adam can't remember his last name, said houston was going to take ginn and he had pretty much called every draft pick that i saw before the team made their pick

dlockz
02-15-2008, 07:45 PM
The NFL insider for the NFL network , his first name is adam can't remember his last name, said houston was going to take ginn and he had pretty much called every draft pick that i saw before the team made their pick


Scott wright is just as informed as anyone and he did not call it. I am not going to think that one source has so much more knowledge than anyone else. No one on this board is getting info from the teams, its all hearsay for the most part. The insider could have got info that Houston was taking Ginn, maybe it was a smokescreen maybe its true. None of us know that for a fact.
How come so many sources that that Quinn was our pick, many of those claimed inside info. None of these draft gurus have very much privy to any of the team info, just speculation possibly based on some accounts. Why would Adam Shefter's be the person that has that info over anyone else. THe draft is all about deception and anybody that has a say in drafting is not giving out that info, thats playing with thier job. Yes a team may show great interest in a player and that is differant. Sorry if I dont believe that Houston was going to take Ginn just because Boomer and other people had sources or feelings. That does not make it true. How many times have so called sources pointed to the wrong player?Hell even if Houston was going to take Ginn that just means that two teams wanted to take him too early. We all including yourself tend to use the facts or opinions that seem to support our own arguement. No proof has been presented by you or anybody else but people want to say I'm wrong. Like I said Scott Wright won awards in 2004 for how accurate his mock was but I still dont take everything he says as gospel.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 07:54 PM
Well, isn't every draft board different? :up: Some sites, depending on the prior draft order, had him going as early as 7 to the Vikings. The majority had him going in the top 15, the 2nd WR overall, (where he went) and yes, I trust Boomer's sources on the Houston story.

Just because someone has a so called source does not mean the source is correct. The draft is all about misinformation. If you think everything Boomer says is gospel thats on you. Please give the basics of the source that is given the info of the drafting of a team. How come a year after our draft we have no clue for the most part what our draft board looked like. You would think with all these people with thier sources we would know. The only things we know for sure about our last draft.

1-we liked Ted Ginn over Brady quinn
2-quinn was rated slightly higher than Beck as per interview with mueller
3-we liked beck over edwards
4- we have no clue if we wanted kalil over satale

finfan54
02-15-2008, 08:22 PM
I dont care what Mel Kiper says.....Jake Long is a beast and a football player. LT? Of course, he will smack guys around. Jake Long does not get beat much at all. Anyone who says that clearly is missing something. Do I think we will draft him? the only legitimate claim people can make is if he is worth the #1 spot.

I like the opine of the guy who talked about the inexact science. Money, fame, recognition going to there heads...I dont think Long is the type to fall the way of Robert Gallery. Those who bring up that name are simply trying to sway opinion from Long.

I would take J Long over Dorsey. I know that much.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 08:36 PM
I dont care what Mel Kiper says.....Jake Long is a beast and a football player. LT? Of course, he will smack guys around. Jake Long does not get beat much at all. Anyone who says that clearly is missing something. Do I think we will draft him? the only legitimate claim people can make is if he is worth the #1 spot.

I like the opine of the guy who talked about the inexact science. Money, fame, recognition going to there heads...I dont think Long is the type to fall the way of Robert Gallery. Those who bring up that name are simply trying to sway opinion from Long.

I would take J Long over Dorsey. I know that much.

I think Long is a great pick not sure I like him over Dorsey but just not sure why anybody thinks he is not a good left tackle prospect. How do people assume Carey is such a good fit for left tackle but let Long is not. I think I would take Jake Long over Chris Long but doesn't matter who I would take, I hope we trade down.

SR 7
02-15-2008, 09:02 PM
I think Long is a great pick not sure I like him over Dorsey but just not sure why anybody thinks he is not a good left tackle prospect. How do people assume Carey is such a good fit for left tackle but let Long is not. I think I would take Jake Long over Chris Long but doesn't matter who I would take, I hope we trade down.

ppl think carey is a good lt and long isnt b/c carey IS on our team and OUR fans are the biggets homers IVE met in my life. This fanbase doestn believe in facts or reality only waht they want to believe in.

JT#1
02-15-2008, 11:34 PM
Scott wright is just as informed as anyone and he did not call it. I am not going to think that one source has so much more knowledge than anyone else. No one on this board is getting info from the teams, its all hearsay for the most part. The insider could have got info that Houston was taking Ginn, maybe it was a smokescreen maybe its true. None of us know that for a fact.
How come so many sources that that Quinn was our pick, many of those claimed inside info. None of these draft gurus have very much privy to any of the team info, just speculation possibly based on some accounts. Why would Adam Shefter's be the person that has that info over anyone else. THe draft is all about deception and anybody that has a say in drafting is not giving out that info, thats playing with thier job. Yes a team may show great interest in a player and that is differant. Sorry if I dont believe that Houston was going to take Ginn just because Boomer and other people had sources or feelings. That does not make it true. How many times have so called sources pointed to the wrong player?Hell even if Houston was going to take Ginn that just means that two teams wanted to take him too early. We all including yourself tend to use the facts or opinions that seem to support our own arguement. No proof has been presented by you or anybody else but people want to say I'm wrong. Like I said Scott Wright won awards in 2004 for how accurate his mock was but I still dont take everything he says as gospel.
no need to get testy, was just telling you people didn't make it up. The main insider for the NFl network who is considered by many to be the best said that houston was going to pick ginn at 10.

dlockz
02-15-2008, 11:59 PM
no need to get testy, was just telling you people didn't make it up. The main insider for the NFl network who is considered by many to be the best said that houston was going to pick ginn at 10.


was not getting testy just dont buy that Houston wanted Ginn so bad. I respect Shefter but dont think he or anyone had any info from the Texans were taking Ginn. How many times have these guys been wrong, correct quite a bit. Just his educated speculation. We will never know the truth unless some GM does something that no other GM has.

fishypete
02-16-2008, 02:14 AM
If Ginn was projected to go within the first 15 picks, just outside of the 10, and we took him at 9 and Houston was going to select him at 10, tell me how we reached.

We will never know what Houston would have or wouldn't have done...and anyone thats say's they know for sure...is a flat out liar. Considering the fools we had selecting...it's no wonder they choose Ginn and family over Willis...sadly thats the truth.

2413fanphins
02-16-2008, 09:53 AM
well I for one, am happy with the ginn selection.

If we can get guys to quit holding on kickoffs, he would have put up anther two or three td's last year.

Give him time to further develope at WR, and in the end I think most will agree it was a good selection.

Boomer
02-16-2008, 05:08 PM
Being in the know as much as you are supposed to be, I know you remember that report was false and Minny just bluffed us out of a pick. There was no attempt to move up by NE. In fact NE basically ignored oline in that draft so if they wanted a lineman so bad, wouldn't they have drafted one. Thier first 4 picks were defense and there were some solid oline prospects they could have drafted. I think people that think that NE was so set on Carey just base that on Minnesota's bluff because its fairly strange of a team that needs oline help to totally bypass it in draft just because one player goes off the board. They could have drafted Max Starks, Travelle Wharton Sean locklear, Jacob Bell or Rex Hadnot. There is not one shred of evidence that NE was interested in Carey, not that we could produce evidence on anything on this board but I do find it strange that a team would look OL in the first and ignore thereafter.

Quite apart from the fact that Bill Belichick came out and said that Carey was who they were trading up for.

Or did he just say that to make Wanny feel better?

Boomer
02-16-2008, 05:09 PM
There is no proof or good evidence that Houston was going to take Ginn. Everybody thought we were taking Quinn and we know how that turned out.
Im not sure why Houston would have been looking so hard at Ginn when they had much bigger needs. They definately had no need at that point for a returnman. I truly believe that if we had taken Quinn that Houston would have still taken Okaye and have seen no evidence to the contrary. Just because someone says something on this board does not make it a fact, just thier take. I'm open to any facts being presented but its just my opinion against thiers with the exception the NE trade rumor which was admitted by Minny as a bluff.Wilford was a better prospect to most people. I guarantee that Boomer had him rated as a better prospect than carey. Besides our front office I dont think you could find one place where wilfork was rated lower than Carey.

Again - and I'm sorry - but Kubiak ALSO stated that Ginn was the guy that they were going to take.

Boomer
02-16-2008, 05:12 PM
no need to get testy, was just telling you people didn't make it up. The main insider for the NFl network who is considered by many to be the best said that houston was going to pick ginn at 10.

No Dlockz is right..........Scott Wright who runs a free website is as knowledgeable as Adam Schefter. :rolleyes2:

Boomer
02-16-2008, 05:17 PM
We will never know what Houston would have or wouldn't have done...and anyone thats say's they know for sure...is a flat out liar. Considering the fools we had selecting...it's no wonder they choose Ginn and family over Willis...sadly thats the truth.


Yep. Because Kubiak and Schefter are flat out liars.

And I suppose that would make me one as well, no?

And this RUBBISH about the "Ginn family" is the most pathetic crap I've heard rolled out in posts. It's just lazy. It's pretty obvious that what Cameron meant was that he knew the kid, he knew how he'd work, he knew that if he wanted him to work out in Miami in the off-season, that respect that he has for Cameron and that Ginn's father had for Cameron would mean that he'd be working out in Miami and not Cleveland. If he wanted that extra 5/10% from him, then the familial relationship could be used to his advantage .

Did Cameron convey that in the best possible way in the press conference? Probably not, but keep rolling out this nonsense if it makes you happy.

dlockz
02-16-2008, 05:58 PM
No Dlockz is right..........Scott Wright who runs a free website is as knowledgeable as Adam Schefter. :rolleyes2:


Just because you make cute smileys in a response does not make it right.
I will definately put up Scott Wrights knowledge of the players and draft up against Adam Schefter. Adam shefter has reported quite a bit of stuff that has turned out to be quite inaccurate.
1. Bill Parcells is remaining coach in Dallas Jan of 2007
2.That Art Shell had any chance to be coach of the Chargers last year
3.Ashy lelie to Tampa
4.No body will be interested in TO after his Philly meltdown


Schefter is much like Chris Mort, he has alot of info but he also just puts alot of stuff out there. If you or anybody else want to take every word of his as nothing but the truth thats fine but no team is going around talking about the players they missed on. If someone wants to show evidence to the contrary fine.

How is Wright running a free website a reason to knock his draft info? Should I believe you know nothing of players since as far as I know you dont have a draft website. His website is far from amateur. I was not implying that Wright had the so called insider info that Shefter has I was speaking of draft knowledege.

Boomer
02-16-2008, 06:01 PM
Just because you make cute smileys in a response does not make it right.
I will definately put up Scott Wrights knowledge of the players and draft up against Adam Schefter. Adam shefter has reported quite a bit of stuff that has turned out to be quite inaccurate.
1. Bill Parcells is remaining coach in Dallas Jan of 2007
2.That Art Shell had any chance to be coach of the Chargers last year
3.Ashy lelie to Tampa
4.No body will be interested in TO after his Philly meltdown


Schefter is much like Chris Mort, he has alot of info but he also just puts alot of stuff out there. If you or anybody else want to take every word of his as nothing but the truth thats fine but no team is going around talking about the players they missed on. If someone wants to show evidence to the contrary fine.

OK, if you insist.

dlockz
02-16-2008, 06:15 PM
Yep. Because Kubiak and Schefter are flat out liars.

And I suppose that would make me one as well, no?

And this RUBBISH about the "Ginn family" is the most pathetic crap I've heard rolled out in posts. It's just lazy. It's pretty obvious that what Cameron meant was that he knew the kid, he knew how he'd work, he knew that if he wanted him to work out in Miami in the off-season, that respect that he has for Cameron and that Ginn's father had for Cameron would mean that he'd be working out in Miami and not Cleveland. If he wanted that extra 5/10% from him, then the familial relationship could be used to his advantage .

Did Cameron convey that in the best possible way in the press conference? Probably not, but keep rolling out this nonsense if it makes you happy.

Please give any quote where Kubiak said he was taking Ginn over Okaye.
Not saying he never said it but just dont hear many coaches say we wanted Ginn but took Okaye. As for Shefter lying, his sources could be wrong or just saying what they thought. A year after the draft we have no clue on any players we have missed on over the year or who we would have taken if they were gone for the most part except Trent Edwards last year.

dlockz
02-16-2008, 06:19 PM
Quite apart from the fact that Bill Belichick came out and said that Carey was who they were trading up for.

Or did he just say that to make Wanny feel better?

When did Bill say this. If Minnesota admitted they bluffed us then there was no trade proposed from NE. If NE was trying to trade up then we were not bluffed. Im sure Bill said yea we wanted to trade up for Carey instead of Wilfork lol. I would love to see or hear any quote from Belichichek on this.
Although I do understand it might be hard to prove. Did Bill tell you this through your insider in his organization.:)

dlockz
02-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Again - and I'm sorry - but Kubiak ALSO stated that Ginn was the guy that they were going to take.

do you have a source for that or is Adam Shefters inside source in Houston the coach. He is really a deep insider.

2413fanphins
02-16-2008, 06:26 PM
is it hot in here???

Boomer
02-16-2008, 06:31 PM
Dlockz......like I said, whatever.

I really don't have the time or the inclination to get into this. Clearly with your little "did Bill tell you this through your insider in his organisation" it would be best if you just put me on ignore so you wouldn't have to read my rubbish.

2413fanphins
02-16-2008, 06:35 PM
2413fanphins... hands boomer a nice cold bud light...



good day mate.

Boomer
02-16-2008, 06:38 PM
To you too Sir.

dlockz
02-16-2008, 06:55 PM
Dlockz......like I said, whatever.

I really don't have the time or the inclination to get into this. Clearly with your little "did Bill tell you this through your insider in his organisation" it would be best if you just put me on ignore so you wouldn't have to read my rubbish.

I find it quite convenient to use time or inclination anytime someone disagrees with you. I just asked you to back up your claims. You could be very well be right. You have quite a tendency to dimiss things other people say but if anyone disagrees with you, how dare they not just leave it as you say.

I will not put you on ignore because I have no problem with you saying anything on this site. I enjoy reading and replying to your posts and always hope for positive dialogue, you just don't accept people disageeing with you very well. People tell me I dont have a clue all the time on this board or that I am negative but I am definately right much more than wrong. UNPopular takes are sometimes mistaken for bad takes. Just some examples.

1-Trading for Trent Green is a bad idea and we will be cutting him next year.
Got killed for it but came quite true

2-Drafting a Joe Toledo an always injured college player made no sense
Well he just got cut.

3. Alabi is never going to do anything for us, just got cut
4.David Martin is nothing more than a journeyman TE that will not be good
Well he proved himself once again last year.
5.Cory Sledge was quite an overrated signing and may be this year's Fred Beasly.
6. Predicted we would go 5-11 or worse but of course I was being negative.


Not saying Im a guru but just showing because people slam what you say on the board it makes it no less accurate.

You rolled your eyes talking about my wright statement and I gave you a little of your own medicine about Belichek and I have somehow offended you
Noone knows it all so get ove it. I want you to set me straight If I'm wrong but because you say I'm wrong is not enough. I'm not trying to give you a hard time just having a debate on something you feel to be a fact. I personally dont see anything wrong with that. I thought the reason people went to message boards was to exchange and debate ideas. So if you want to put me on ignore fine but I look forward to any input you or anybody else has on this board although who knows I may get banned for daring to disagree with you.

Also have never called anything you have wrote rubbish, I respect your opinion just dont always agree.

Boomer
02-16-2008, 07:04 PM
I find it quite convenient to use time or inclination anytime someone disagrees with you. I just asked you to back up your claims. You could be very well be right. You have quite a tendency to dimiss things other people say but if anyone disagrees with you, how dare they not just leave it as you say.

I will not put you on ignore because I have no problem with you saying anything on this site. I enjoy reading and replying to your posts and always hope for positive dialogue, you just don't accept people disageeing with you very well. People tell me I dont have a clue all the time on this board or that I am negative but I am definately right much more than wrong. UNPopular takes are sometimes mistaken for bad takes. Just some examples.

1-Trading for Trent Green is a bad idea and we will be cutting him next year.
Got killed for it but came quite true

2-Drafting a Joe Toledo an always injured college player made no sense
Well he just got cut.

3. Alabi is never going to do anything for us, just got cut
4.David Martin is nothing more than a journeyman TE that will not be good
Well he proved himself once again last year.
5.Cory Sledge was quite an overrated signing and may be this year's Fred Beasly.
6. Predicted we would go 5-11 or worse but of course I was being negative.


Not saying Im a guru but just showing because people slam what you say on the board it makes it no less accurate.

You rolled your eyes talking about my wright statement and I gave you a little of your own medicine about Belichek and I have somehow offended you
Noone knows it all so get ove it. I want you to set me straight If I'm wrong but because you say I'm wrong is not enough. I'm not trying to give you a hard time just having a debate on something you feel to be a fact. I personally dont see anything wrong with that. I thought the reason people went to message boards was to exchange and debate ideas. So if you want to put me on ignore fine but I look forward to any input you or anybody else has on this board although who knows I may get banned for daring to disagree with you.

You haven't offended me in any way, shape or form. Fact of the matter is, it's 11.10pm, I've been up since 4.25am and I genuinely haven't got the time or the inclination to look for it.

Tis all.

I'm sorry you took it the wrong way.

Boomer
02-16-2008, 07:08 PM
But whilst I'm sitting here, Adam Schefter said on NFL Network's draft coverage that Ginn was the guy that Houston were set to take. If memory serves me, Kubiak either confirmed or didn't deny in a press conference with local press.

As for Carey, Belichick later denied that they wanted Carey, but at the time said he was who they were targeting, a fact confirmed by Mike Tice.

I WILL dig out the quotes, etc. but you may have to wait till Tuesday when I'm back at work and can use the resources there in terms of searching cuttings.

dlockz
02-16-2008, 07:22 PM
You haven't offended me in any way, shape or form. Fact of the matter is, it's 11.10pm, I've been up since 4.25am and I genuinely haven't got the time or the inclination to look for it.

Tis all.

I'm sorry you took it the wrong way.

Its all good. Now whats your take on that Bud Light a previous poster just handed you. Do you find it quite overrated with a slow forty time.

rev kev
02-16-2008, 09:45 PM
too much gullibility around here - like scott pioli reads this site for insight..., real nice... :rolleyes:

fishypete
02-16-2008, 10:55 PM
Of course Jake Long is a left tackle....he may not be a perfect left tackle...or one that some fans want...but he is what he is...a left tackle.

2007: Finished second in the voting for the Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy…Unanimous All-Big Ten Conference first-team pick and named the league's Offensive Lineman of the Year for the second-straight season…Added Academic All-Big Ten Conference honors… Hugh R. Rader Jr. Memorial Award recipient as Michigan's top offensive lineman and received the Mike Gittleson Award, given to the U-M player who exhibits a resolute work ethic and commitment to preparing for the game...Served as team captain for the second consecutive campaign, starting all thirteen games at left offensive tackle…Helped the team average 385.1 yards per game…The Wolverines amassed 1,251 of their 2,144 yards on the ground over Long's left tackle position, as he registered 119 knockdowns, including 18 touchdown-resulting blocks…Allowed only one quarterback sack on 423 pass plays and was penalized just once, finishing with an 87.85% grade for blocking consistency…Also recorded one solo tackle. All-American, started all 13 games at left tackle in '06. Missed time w/ankle injury. Played in final five games and started four games at left tackle in '05. All-Big Ten second team in '04. Did not see game action in '03.

JT#1
02-17-2008, 12:16 AM
Its all good. Now whats your take on that Bud Light a previous poster just handed you. Do you find it quite overrated with a slow forty time.
was that comment really necessary ?

dlockz
02-17-2008, 02:06 AM
was that comment really necessary ?


I made a joke about beer because Boomer lives in England, If you have ever been to Europe you would know they are quite fond of thier beer. Why was my comment such a problem. I think we were fairly civil in our disagreement but fail to see why you have a problem with that very irrelevant comment. Some people are way too sensitive and look for way more than is there with that comment. Or maybe you were joking so if so I apologize but I dont think you were joking. Please explain to me what was so bad about my comment.

JT#1
02-17-2008, 02:17 AM
I made a joke about beer because Boomer lives in England, If you have ever been to Europe you would know they are quite fond of thier beer. Why was my comment such a problem. I think we were fairly civil in our disagreement but fail to see why you have a problem with that very irrelevant comment. Some people are way too sensitive and look for way more than is there with that comment. Or maybe you were joking so if so I apologize but I dont think you were joking. Please explain to me what was so bad about my comment.
the "do you find it overrated and has a slow 40 time" seemed spiteful to me. I probably just took it the wrong way.

dlockz
02-17-2008, 02:25 AM
the "do you find it overrated and has a slow 40 time" seemed spiteful to me. I probably just took it the wrong way.


wow, would never had imagined that comment would be took that way.
I have no spite for anyone on this board. I revel in discussion and have very strong opinions that I try to support. I have no reason to be spiteful to Boomer just because we has a little back and forth.

TotoreMexico
02-17-2008, 03:57 AM
What mock draft did I dismiss. The only mocks that showed Carey were the ones that I showed. I said clearly you might have some boards that had Carey going higher but the vast majority of mocks had him as a late first round to high second round pick. What mock did I dismiss and my opinion was not just based on mocks I was just showing an example. Nobody showed any proof of how teams had these guys rated. Minnesota admitted that they bamboozled us into trading up and no other team confirmed that they was going to trade up and get him. NE was not going to choose him over Vince Wilfork for sure. Shane Andrews had just went off the board and we somewhat overdrafted Carey because our GM went into panic mode. When it comes to the term reach its somewhat speculative, we needed a lineman and we took him slightly early. Much like this year with Ginn, nobody had Ginn rated to go this high but he was the next best player on offense that was not a running back so thats who we took since we liked him better than Quinn. Carey was very highly touted coming out of high school and somewhat less highly touted coming out of college. I love some on this board we disagree and no facts are shown that disprove me but my take gets attacked without any proof that I am incorrect. Not one draft source that I checked that year had Carey going that high. Sometimes players go higher when teams draft by need rather than BPA and that year we went by need. Most people thought we reached somehwhat on Ginn this year and almost no mock from any reputable source had him going this high. As for Houston picking him, its possible but I dont really buy it being that they had a great special teams player already and had much greater needs than WR. I'm pretty sure if Okaye is there and Ginn is there they still take Okaye. If you disagree with me fine but to bash my take is baseless especially the comment about me be duplicitous and thats par for the course for me. I tryed to support my argument and I get attacked for it, now thats funny. I never once attacked anyone's opinion, I only disagreed with it. Just because an opinion is not as popular on our board as others make it no less accurate or viable. Scott Wright and Mel Kiper as well as the majority of so called gurus had him rated to be drafted late first or early second.

No, they don't


In his heart of hearts, Kubiak might have hoped the Texans would be in a position to snatch an offensive dynamo, but with Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson, and Ted Ginn Jr. all off the board by the time the Texans chose, it was easy to pull the trigger on Okoye, a player who reminds Kubiak of someone in his past.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=3316

I am Bane
02-17-2008, 04:05 AM
BACK TO JAKE:

he is a beast up front, he is a beast down field into the linebackers. he is possibly as locked to a target i have seen a lineman in a long long time, you do not see many shedding him. on the negative, he is not going to be good against speed rushers at all. watching him struggle to the outside ever so consistantly, think of the game speed and rushers he'd face in the NFL, it is even faster. Jake will struggle to the outside, as well as moves to his left when he's already in motion to the right.... but he will be a great tackle in the NFL all in all (especially run). just be ready when he lets up some sacks and a good amount of pressure.

dlockz
02-17-2008, 04:18 AM
No, they don't



http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=3316

Nothing in that article says that Kubiak was going to take or wanted to take GInn. In fact they did not expect Okaye to be there so even if they were looking at GInn it might have been because they expected Okaye to be gone.
I'm pretty sure there were some players that if they fell we would have taken over Ginn. Seriously though that article does nothing to prove your point. It said he might have hoped. Hell we might have hoped we were in a position to take Levi Brown. Nothing said by Kubiak implied he wanted Ginn in that article.


“He was our top-rated defensive player on the board...This kid is an outstanding football player.”
In his heart of hearts, Kubiak might have hoped the Texans would be in a position to snatch an offensive dynamo, but with Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson, and Ted Ginn Jr. all off the board by the time the Texans chose, it was easy to pull the trigger on Okoye, a player who reminds Kubiak of someone in his past.

“I’ll tell you when we were watching him preparing for the draft, I have a player that I’m a big fan of from my time in San Francisco, Bryant Young, who was a great player for many years,” Kubiak said when asked if Okoye reminded him of anyone.
Kubiak also acknowledged that Okoye’s skill set is something that you don’t see come around every year.

In Fact you could debate like I said that they would have taken Okaye no matter what because they expected him to go higher.


The fact that Okoye was available came as surprise to many as most mock drafts had the 19-year old phenom going before Houston went on the clock. The Texans were in that group.
“We absolutely were shocked,” Smith said. “I think in all of our mock drafts we looked at one scenario in which he was available.”


Also if you were referring to they did not have a kick returner Jerome Mathis was a pro bowler as a rookie as a returnman.

I do appreciate your input but you must admit this did not make your case.

dlockz
02-17-2008, 04:19 AM
BACK TO JAKE:

he is a beast up front, he is a beast down field into the linebackers. he is possibly as locked to a target i have seen a lineman in a long long time, you do not see many shedding him. on the negative, he is not going to be good against speed rushers at all. watching him struggle to the outside ever so consistantly, think of the game speed and rushers he'd face in the NFL, it is even faster. Jake will struggle to the outside, as well as moves to his left when he's already in motion to the right.... but he will be a great tackle in the NFL all in all (especially run). just be ready when he lets up some sacks and a good amount of pressure.

I do think he is better suited to left tackle then Carey. Would you agree?

TotoreMexico
02-17-2008, 04:20 AM
How do u know that Houston was going to take Ginn, because someone on this board said so. Most draft experts had him going around the 15th pick. St louis was considered a possibility, Pittsburgh and Tennesse was mentioned quite often.

I guess Adam Schefter is a poster on this board:rolleyes2:


Adam Schefter - * Let's be clear about this: Miami might have made a mistake drafting wide receiver Ted Ginn ahead of Brady Quinn, but it did not reach for him. Had the Dolphins passed on Ginn, the Houston Texans very likely would have taken Ginn one pick later at No. 10. Ginn was the player the Texans wanted. They envisioned lining him up as the home-run threat opposite Pro Bowl wide receiver Andre Johnson and giving them a pair of receivers that almost could equal Indianapolis' Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

dlockz
02-17-2008, 04:32 AM
I guess Adam Schefter is a poster on this board:rolleyes2:


Adam Shefter is just one guy of that opinion, I'm sure there are others but that is not the point. Shefter assumes that Houston would have taken Ginn based on what he heard. Does not make it the truth also did not take into consideration that Okaye dropped which might have changed thier plans because a possibly higher rated player dropped. When you pick 11th you usually dont zero in on one guy and stay with that pick regardless of who falls. I'm sure ther are some players that if they had dropped would have changed our plans or maybe we had a differant plan since all GM's tend to act like thier draft went as expected. I have never heard any GM say well we missed on this guy so we took player b. Alot of draft experts thought Ginn was a reach so why does Shefter's opinion count any more than thiers? I will address my review of the draft and say I really did not look at Ginn as a big reach at the time, I just think we made a mistake passing on a player like Quinn to take a WR. I advocated taking Brown from the beginnig in the draft and the only thing I heard on this board was that Levi Brown was a reach at our pick and lo and behold he went 4 picks before us.

TotoreMexico
02-17-2008, 04:39 AM
Nothing in that article says that Kubiak was going to take or wanted to take GInn. In fact they did not expect Okaye to be there so even if they were looking at GInn it might have been because they expected Okaye to be gone.
I'm pretty sure there were some players that if they fell we would have taken over Ginn. Seriously though that article does nothing to prove your point. It said he might have hoped. Hell we might have hoped we were in a position to take Levi Brown. Nothing said by Kubiak implied he wanted Ginn in that article.


“He was our top-rated defensive player on the board...This kid is an outstanding football player.”
In his heart of hearts, Kubiak might have hoped the Texans would be in a position to snatch an offensive dynamo, but with Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson, and Ted Ginn Jr. all off the board by the time the Texans chose, it was easy to pull the trigger on Okoye, a player who reminds Kubiak of someone in his past.

“I’ll tell you when we were watching him preparing for the draft, I have a player that I’m a big fan of from my time in San Francisco, Bryant Young, who was a great player for many years,” Kubiak said when asked if Okoye reminded him of anyone.
Kubiak also acknowledged that Okoye’s skill set is something that you don’t see come around every year.

In Fact you could debate like I said that they would have taken Okaye no matter what because they expected him to go higher.


The fact that Okoye was available came as surprise to many as most mock drafts had the 19-year old phenom going before Houston went on the clock. The Texans were in that group.
“We absolutely were shocked,” Smith said. “I think in all of our mock drafts we looked at one scenario in which he was available.”


Also if you were referring to they did not have a kick returner Jerome Mathis was a pro bowler as a rookie as a returnman.

I do appreciate your input but you must admit this did not make your case.

Check this one dlockz


Mueller said that his 'intelligence' had Houston definitely taking Ginn with the next pick at 10.

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2007/05/mueller_chat_an.html

dlockz
02-17-2008, 04:48 AM
Check this one dlockz



http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2007/05/mueller_chat_an.html


Just because Mueller believed Houston was taking Ginn is still not evidence. If every team knows what every other team is going to do then why would Houston target a player that they knew we were going to take. This also furthers my take that teams are pretty damn secretative about thier picks unless they have the top pick and then they are still trying to leverage trades and agents.




I dont doubt that his intelligence told him that. That still does not show that was Houston's intent for two reasons. One the dreaded smokescreen and the other was intelligence is not an exact science ask George Bush. That also does not take into account that Okaye dropped so thier plans if they were Ginn might have changed with Okaye dropping. How many teams probably had intelligence that we were taking Quinn if he was there? In all reality it doesn't matter if Ginn was a reach because if they wanted an offensive WR like Ginn he was the top player of that type on the board at the time. To me Ginn was not a great pick at that spot because in my opinion he was not the best player available or at our biggest need area but they got who they wanted whether its was the right decision or not.

Boomer
02-17-2008, 05:24 AM
Its all good. Now whats your take on that Bud Light a previous poster just handed you. Do you find it quite overrated with a slow forty time.
I think it needs a good 40 in Indianapolis or it's going to be a FA.

Boomer
02-17-2008, 05:25 AM
I made a joke about beer because Boomer lives in England, If you have ever been to Europe you would know they are quite fond of thier beer. Why was my comment such a problem. I think we were fairly civil in our disagreement but fail to see why you have a problem with that very irrelevant comment. Some people are way too sensitive and look for way more than is there with that comment. Or maybe you were joking so if so I apologize but I dont think you were joking. Please explain to me what was so bad about my comment.

I took it in the spirit intended my man.

;)

Boomer
02-17-2008, 05:29 AM
Of course Jake Long is a left tackle....he may not be a perfect left tackle...or one that some fans want...but he is what he is...a left tackle.

2007: Finished second in the voting for the Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy…Unanimous All-Big Ten Conference first-team pick and named the league's Offensive Lineman of the Year for the second-straight season…Added Academic All-Big Ten Conference honors… Hugh R. Rader Jr. Memorial Award recipient as Michigan's top offensive lineman and received the Mike Gittleson Award, given to the U-M player who exhibits a resolute work ethic and commitment to preparing for the game...Served as team captain for the second consecutive campaign, starting all thirteen games at left offensive tackle…Helped the team average 385.1 yards per game…The Wolverines amassed 1,251 of their 2,144 yards on the ground over Long's left tackle position, as he registered 119 knockdowns, including 18 touchdown-resulting blocks…Allowed only one quarterback sack on 423 pass plays and was penalized just once, finishing with an 87.85% grade for blocking consistency…Also recorded one solo tackle. All-American, started all 13 games at left tackle in '06. Missed time w/ankle injury. Played in final five games and started four games at left tackle in '05. All-Big Ten second team in '04. Did not see game action in '03.


Oh that's OK then, thanks for clearing that up.

I think clarification is needed. Yes, Jake Long can play LT in the NFL. But at the quality expected of a number 1 pick? No, not in my opinion or that of enough people to make you worry. Someone's opinion I really value said that he was Stephen Neal at left tackle. I suspect he might be an All Pro RT. But do you draft a RT with the first overall pick, especially when you have a Pro Bowl calibre RT on the team already?

No.

Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano better be certain that Jake can play LT at a high level if they intend to draft him. If they do, then so be it. If they're not 100% certain, then they can't take him. I've written earlier in the thread why I think he'll struggle in space outside.

BlueFin
02-17-2008, 10:23 AM
What mock draft did I dismiss. The only mocks that showed Carey were the ones that I showed. I said clearly you might have some boards that had Carey going higher but the vast majority of mocks had him as a late first round to high second round pick. What mock did I dismiss and my opinion was not just based on mocks I was just showing an example. Nobody showed any proof of how teams had these guys rated. Minnesota admitted that they bamboozled us into trading up and no other team confirmed that they was going to trade up and get him. NE was not going to choose him over Vince Wilfork for sure. Shane Andrews had just went off the board and we somewhat overdrafted Carey because our GM went into panic mode. When it comes to the term reach its somewhat speculative, we needed a lineman and we took him slightly early. Much like this year with Ginn, nobody had Ginn rated to go this high but he was the next best player on offense that was not a running back so thats who we took since we liked him better than Quinn. Carey was very highly touted coming out of high school and somewhat less highly touted coming out of college. I love some on this board we disagree and no facts are shown that disprove me but my take gets attacked without any proof that I am incorrect. Not one draft source that I checked that year had Carey going that high. Sometimes players go higher when teams draft by need rather than BPA and that year we went by need. Most people thought we reached somehwhat on Ginn this year and almost no mock from any reputable source had him going this high. As for Houston picking him, its possible but I dont really buy it being that they had a great special teams player already and had much greater needs than WR. I'm pretty sure if Okaye is there and Ginn is there they still take Okaye. If you disagree with me fine but to bash my take is baseless especially the comment about me be duplicitous and thats par for the course for me. I tryed to support my argument and I get attacked for it, now thats funny. I never once attacked anyone's opinion, I only disagreed with it. Just because an opinion is not as popular on our board as others make it no less accurate or viable. Scott Wright and Mel Kiper as well as the majority of so called gurus had him rated to be drafted late first or early second.

Regardless of whether you or anyone else thought he was a reach at the time, the only thing that truly matters is the end result in grading a player.

Based on Vernon Careys career so far, I would have to say he was not a reach at all.

I remember when the Patriots drafted Logan Mankins (I think), he seemed like a reach, but obviously..................he wasn't.

dlockz
02-17-2008, 11:03 AM
Regardless of whether you or anyone else thought he was a reach at the time, the only thing that truly matters is the end result in grading a player.

Based on Vernon Careys career so far, I would have to say he was not a reach at all.

I remember when the Patriots drafted Logan Mankins (I think), he seemed like a reach, but obviously..................he wasn't.


My only real complaint ever with the choice of Carey was that we gave away a 4th round pick because we were dumbazzes. Nobody was moving up to take Carey before us and if they did we had Wilfork which would have been a great choice for us also. I thought we drafted Carey too early but he would have definately been gone well before our next pick. We drafted based on need instead of BPA which I have no problem with. Wilfork overall had a higher grade but I agree we needed an olineman more.

With our draft history we should be thankful we chose Carey especially since there were alot of misses right after him.
The loss of the fourth made us have to trade our third rounder to pick up another 4th and a 5th. With that third rounder we could have drafted Matt Scwab, TRavelle Wharton or Shaun Phillips. Guys like Jacob Bell, Gibril Wilson and Jared Allen were available for our other pick.

No team wasted draft choices like us. Not to mention we traded the next year's second round pick for AJ Feeley in probably our worst and stupidest trade in history. Hopefully Ireland can work out some smart trades unlike the idiots like Speilman. So basically the biggest problem I had with the drafting of Carey is that we gave a pick for no damn reason but what else is new.

fishypete
02-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Adam Schefter - * Let's be clear about this: Miami might have made a mistake drafting wide receiver Ted Ginn ahead of Brady Quinn, but it did not reach for him. Had the Dolphins passed on Ginn, the Houston Texans very likely would have taken Ginn one pick later at No. 10. Ginn was the player the Texans wanted. They envisioned lining him up as the home-run threat opposite Pro Bowl wide receiver Andre Johnson and giving them a pair of receivers that almost could equal Indianapolis' Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

The key words are " very likely".....it doesn't say for sure...100% ....take it to the bank....but very likely....that to me means nothing. We could agrue back and forth forever about this....and we'll get nowhere...now more than ever I wish the Dolphins had selected Willis instead of Ginn...and the reason is as obvious now than it was last year.

fishypete
02-17-2008, 01:58 PM
Oh that's OK then, thanks for clearing that up.

I think clarification is needed. Yes, Jake Long can play LT in the NFL. But at the quality expected of a number 1 pick? No, not in my opinion or that of enough people to make you worry. Someone's opinion I really value said that he was Stephen Neal at left tackle. I suspect he might be an All Pro RT. But do you draft a RT with the first overall pick, especially when you have a Pro Bowl calibre RT on the team already?

No.

Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano better be certain that Jake can play LT at a high level if they intend to draft him. If they do, then so be it. If they're not 100% certain, then they can't take him. I've written earlier in the thread why I think he'll struggle in space outside.

Boomer...frankly I don't see a lock on any of the top players at least the top 5 players that one can say is a sure item...they all have their good points and bad. I have yet to see any top notch draft expert say that Dorsey can be a nose tackle...and I would say the same for Ellis...at least what we fans believe to be a true nose tackle to be...is Ryan really a QB thats worth the top pick...or is he the better of the rest and left to be the top QB? Is either Long a sure bet...and worthy of the top pick...will the Dolphins play a true 3-4 or stay with the old defense...until we know that we don't know enough to judge whom will be the right pick. The Dolphins have so many positions to fill and it will be interesting to see which free agents are brought in..that may be our only way of guessing who gets the selection in the draft.

TotoreMexico
02-17-2008, 02:55 PM
Adam Schefter - * Let's be clear about this: Miami might have made a mistake drafting wide receiver Ted Ginn ahead of Brady Quinn, but it did not reach for him. Had the Dolphins passed on Ginn, the Houston Texans very likely would have taken Ginn one pick later at No. 10. Ginn was the player the Texans wanted. They envisioned lining him up as the home-run threat opposite Pro Bowl wide receiver Andre Johnson and giving them a pair of receivers that almost could equal Indianapolis' Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

The key words are " very likely".....it doesn't say for sure...100% ....take it to the bank....but very likely....that to me means nothing. We could agrue back and forth forever about this....and we'll get nowhere...now more than ever I wish the Dolphins had selected Willis instead of Ginn...and the reason is as obvious now than it was last year.

So please explain why their very next pick was a WR?

They were interested in Ginn and would have picked him if he was still on board, I'm 100% sure because I even asked Texans fans on different message boards after the draft

fishypete
02-17-2008, 03:25 PM
So please explain why their very next pick was a WR?

They were interested in Ginn and would have picked him if he was still on board, I'm 100% sure because I even asked Texans fans on different message boards after the draft

When Texans fans make the pick...let me know...and if I wanted a certain player...and thought perhaps you would be interested in that player also...I would do what every team does....blow smoke....it's called deception. We will never know the truth...but it's certain we should have picked Willis over a returner with the 9th pick.

TotoreMexico
02-17-2008, 03:41 PM
When Texans fans make the pick...let me know...and if I wanted a certain player...and thought perhaps you would be interested in that player also...I would do what every team does....blow smoke....it's called deception. We will never know the truth...but it's certain we should have picked Willis over a returner with the 9th pick.

Please explain why they drafted a WR with their very next pick:rolleyes2:

jim1
02-17-2008, 06:53 PM
Oh that's OK then, thanks for clearing that up.

I think clarification is needed. Yes, Jake Long can play LT in the NFL. But at the quality expected of a number 1 pick? No, not in my opinion or that of enough people to make you worry. Someone's opinion I really value said that he was Stephen Neal at left tackle. I suspect he might be an All Pro RT. But do you draft a RT with the first overall pick, especially when you have a Pro Bowl calibre RT on the team already?

No.

Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano better be certain that Jake can play LT at a high level if they intend to draft him. If they do, then so be it. If they're not 100% certain, then they can't take him. I've written earlier in the thread why I think he'll struggle in space outside.

How do you rate WR's? Is Wes Welker an outstanding WR or just an outstanding #2 WR? What about Fred Biletnikoff? Was he one of the best or was he just the guy playing opposite Cliff Branch? What about Steve Largent, how do you place a value upon him given that he wasn't a deep threat? Why was Keyshawn Johnson the 1st pick in the draft when he wasn't a true #1, lacking burning speed ? Who drafted him?

The point is that if you suspect that JLong might be an All-Pro RT why not take him? I sure as hell would. Just because he isn't guarding the QB's blind side doesn't mean that he isn't performing a critical function if he were to play RT. Look at the Giants and the heat that they bring with Strahan and Umenyora. If the heat is coming then the heat is coming, regardless from what side. And, of course, Long is a smash mouth, kick your *** type of run blocker.

If this guy could be either a very good LT or has a good chance of being an All-Pro RT as you suspect, goddamn right I'm taking him. And if I can pick up Cherilius at #32 to play RT and move Carey inside to dominate at Guard, I might do that. Maybe Nicks, too. And if I can take Chris Williams or Anthony Collins at #32 and move Carey back to RT, great. All the better Collins/Mormino or Hadnot/Satele/Carey/Long. This is the year to fix the freaking OL and have it done with for the next decade. Plenty of picks from #57 on down to fix the D, and free agent money to burn, too.

If we can give Beck some time, Ginn some time, RB and RW some time, good things can happen. In a word, synergy.

I am Bane
02-17-2008, 06:59 PM
I do think he is better suited to left tackle then Carey. Would you agree?



eh, if we're gonna run non-stop to the left side then yes. but Jake is slower footed than Carey, and will struggle with speed rushers that have a variety of moves. like Dwight Freeny- 3 sacks i predict (no joke). you can set up Jake pretty easily, he isn't overly agile.

better than Carey, not sure... but he would be nice to have on the other side of Carey.

JT#1
02-17-2008, 07:03 PM
How do you rate WR's? Is Wes Welker an outstanding WR or just an outstanding #2 WR? What about Fred Biletnikoff? Was he one of the best or was he just the guy playing opposite Cliff Branch? Why was Keyshawn Johnson the 1st pick in the draft when he wasn't a true #1, lacking burning speed ? Who drafted him?

The point is that if you suspect that JLong might be an All-Pro RT why not take him? I sure as hell would. Just because he isn't guarding the QB's blind side doesn't mean that he isn't performing a critical function. Look at the Giants and the heat that they bring with Strahan and Umenyora. If the heat is coming then the heat is coming, regardless from what side.

If this guy could be either a very good LT or has a good chance of being an All-Pro RT as you suspect, goddamn right I'm taking him. And if I can pick up Cherilius at #32 to play RT and move Carey inside to dominate at Guard, I might do that. Maybe Nicks, too. And if I can take Chris Williams or Anthony Collins at #32 and move Carey back to RT, great. All the better Collins/Mormino or Hadnot/Satele/Carey/Long. This is the year to fix the freaking OL and have it done with for the next decade. Plenty of picks from #57 on down to fix the D, and free agent money to burn, too.

If we can give Beck some time, Ginn some time, RB and RW some time, good things can happen. In a word, synergy.
you don't pay #1 pick money on a RT. Its just not a wise investment

jim1
02-17-2008, 07:19 PM
you don't pay #1 pick money on a RT. Its just not a wise investment

What would you have invested in Fred Biletnikoff or Steve Largent? What were they worth? How do you rate them. After all, they were second class, possession type Wide Receivers, right? Do you not pay big money on guys like that? Are they not worth it? WOuld #2 receivers like those two be valuable and highly paid in today's free agent market? And in terms of #1 pick money, again I'll ask why was Keyshawn Johnson taken #1 overall since he wasn't fast enought to be a true #1? And didn't Bill Parcells draft him?

Hopefully we can get beyond this remedial level "protecting the blind side of the QB argument- I get it. Let's just call the point mute. Am I taking him over a Carson Palmer? No. Dorsey? Maybe because of the 3-4 vs. 4-3 thing. Chris Long? Not enough info.

A dominating tackle is a dominating tackle- of course there's value added to LT protecting the QB's blind side. But if I can draft a guy who has a great chance of being either a very good LT or an All-Pro calliber RT, I'm taking him. It's not like the guy is a long snapper, he's a tackle.

I feel like the guy in Zorba the Greek trying to knock the brick wall down with my head, time to stop.

JT#1
02-17-2008, 07:27 PM
What would you have invested in Fred Biletnikoff or Steve Largent? What were they worth? How do you rate them. After all, they were second class, possession type Wide Receivers, right? Do you not pay big money on guys like that? Are they not worth it? WOuld #2 receivers like those two be valuable and highly paid in today's free agent market? And in terms of #1 pick money, again I'll ask why was Keyshawn Johnson taken #1 overall since he wasn't fast enought to be a true #? And didn't Bill Parcells draft him?

Hopefully we can get beyond this remedial level "protecting the blind side of the QB argument- I get it. Let's just call the point mute. Am I taking him over a Carson Palmer? No. Dorsey? Maybe because of the 3-4 vs. 4-3 thing. Chris Long? Not enough info.

A dominating tackle is a dominating tackle- of course there's value added to LT protecting the QB's blind side. But if I can draft a guy who has a great chance of being either a very good LT or an All-Pro calliber RT, I'm taking him. It's not like the guy is a long snapper, he's a tackle.

I feel like the guy in Zorba the Greek trying to knock the brick wall down with my head, time to stop.
We already have an All-Pro Caliber Rt in vernon carey what we need is a left tackle, in terms of your comparison it would be signing Biletnikoff when we already have Largent.

jim1
02-17-2008, 07:29 PM
eh, if we're gonna run non-stop to the left side then yes. but Jake is slower footed than Carey, and will struggle with speed rushers that have a variety of moves. like Dwight Freeny- 3 sacks i predict (no joke). you can set up Jake pretty easily, he isn't overly agile.

better than Carey, not sure... but he would be nice to have on the other side of Carey.

Slower footed than Carey? I'm not so sure about that. I view JLong as a better athlete than most on this board. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, who knows. But from what I've seen I doubt it.

I am Bane
02-17-2008, 07:34 PM
Slower footed than Carey? I'm not so sure about that. I view JLong as a better athlete than most on this board. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, who knows. But from what I've seen I doubt it.


Jake is quite slow footed... running game though he locks on and game over for whomever he is blocking. passing game is different, cause you need to shuffle your feet with base, while using your hands and ballance. he struggles step cupping when a speed rush to the outside and staying with the guy. he also struggles when having to step inside and then the rusher doubles to the outside... jake struggles drop step***** nd sliding with him. techniques he can learn, but he needs to work on his feet.

jim1
02-17-2008, 07:41 PM
We already have an All-Pro Caliber Rt in vernon carey what we need is a left tackle, in terms of your comparison it would be signing Biletnikoff when we already have Largent.

Is Carey ideally suited for RT or Guard? There are 4 Guards and tackles (combined), and normally 2 Wide Receivers. Not the same thing.

I don't think that we're going to draft JLong, I'm just arguing that he's worth it. Probably the most efficient means of solving the problem is to draft Williams/Baker/Collins at #32 to play LT, move Carey back to RT, and have it done with. With Shelton, Alabi and Toledo/Belushi gone, they sure as hell have to do something.

jim1
02-17-2008, 07:46 PM
Jake is quite slow footed... running game though he locks on and game over for whomever he is blocking. passing game is different, cause you need to shuffle your feet with base, while using your hands and ballance. he struggles step cupping when a speed rush to the outside and staying with the guy. he also struggles when having to step inside and then the rusher doubles to the outside... jake struggles drop step***** nd sliding with him. techniques he can learn, but he needs to work on his feet.

Quite slow footed my ***. The guy runs a 5.0 40, did not look slow footed to me when I saw Michigan play, and if you haven't seen the footage of him training in that Mel Kiper ESPN piece, you should do so.

I am Bane
02-17-2008, 08:08 PM
Quite slow footed my ***. The guy runs a 5.0 40, did not look slow footed to me when I saw Michigan play, and if you haven't seen the footage of him training in that Mel Kiper ESPN piece, you should do so.


pasblocking is different then 40 time. its step cupping with base... sliding with the rusher. one-on-one, his footwork is poor, he's not QUICK, and he doesnt pass-block with a great base... hence why he struggled quite often with speed rushers to the outside.

i watch almost every michigan game too... on tv quite often up here. but just my thoughts on what i saw.

JT#1
02-17-2008, 08:16 PM
Quite slow footed my ***. The guy runs a 5.0 40, did not look slow footed to me when I saw Michigan play, and if you haven't seen the footage of him training in that Mel Kiper ESPN piece, you should do so.
you don't run straight ahead when your pass blocking, so 40 time is mute.

jim1
02-17-2008, 09:38 PM
you don't run straight ahead when your pass blocking, so 40 time is mute.


So 40 time is mute, as in it doesn't matter. Riiiiighhtt. It's not the end all and be all- quickness and footwork I would imagine are more important, cone drill, shuttle, stuff like that, but don't tell me that it doesn't matter. Or tell Joe Staley, or the 49'ers for that matter. Ask Mr. Staley how much more money is in his bank account because of his 40 time.

If the 40 time is mute, then why does the scouting combine have OL's run it?

dlockz
02-17-2008, 09:55 PM
Please explain why they drafted a WR with their very next pick:rolleyes2:

In the third round the 73rd pick. DL was a much bigger need for them and Okaye was considered a better prospect than Ginn by most teams so we will never know Houston would have done much like the Beck supporters that thin that if Quinn was still there when we chose Beck that we would have passed.

rev kev
02-17-2008, 10:25 PM
How do you rate WR's? Is Wes Welker an outstanding WR or just an outstanding #2 WR? What about Fred Biletnikoff? Was he one of the best or was he just the guy playing opposite Cliff Branch? What about Steve Largent, how do you place a value upon him given that he wasn't a deep threat? Why was Keyshawn Johnson the 1st pick in the draft when he wasn't a true #1, lacking burning speed ? Who drafted him?

The point is that if you suspect that JLong might be an All-Pro RT why not take him? I sure as hell would. Just because he isn't guarding the QB's blind side doesn't mean that he isn't performing a critical function if he were to play RT. Look at the Giants and the heat that they bring with Strahan and Umenyora. If the heat is coming then the heat is coming, regardless from what side. And, of course, Long is a smash mouth, kick your *** type of run blocker.

If this guy could be either a very good LT or has a good chance of being an All-Pro RT as you suspect, goddamn right I'm taking him. And if I can pick up Cherilius at #32 to play RT and move Carey inside to dominate at Guard, I might do that. Maybe Nicks, too. And if I can take Chris Williams or Anthony Collins at #32 and move Carey back to RT, great. All the better Collins/Mormino or Hadnot/Satele/Carey/Long. This is the year to fix the freaking OL and have it done with for the next decade. Plenty of picks from #57 on down to fix the D, and free agent money to burn, too.

If we can give Beck some time, Ginn some time, RB and RW some time, good things can happen. In a word, synergy.

You can't go wrong with the top players in the draft question is what's your favourite drink... OT DL, even QB is a need...

jim1
02-17-2008, 11:04 PM
You can't go wrong with the top players in the draft question is what's your favourite drink... OT DL, even QB is a need...

I won't be pissed off if we pass on JLong at #1. What will piss me off is if we pass on one of the Williams/Baker/Collins/Cherilius type guys at #32 and also fail to get a Flozell Adams type in FA. I realize that there is a flavor of overkill in my argument a la drafting OL #1 and #32 and theorizing about moving Carey back to guard. But if we ended up with Long/Mormino (Hadnot)/Satele/Carey/Cherilius or Williams, Baker, or Collins at LT and Carey back at RT I'm a happy camper, too. This just strikes me as a great year to end the OL misery, I don't know how else to put it.

Edit: I first heard about Cherilius last year from a Boomer post. I heard about Anthony Collins this year from a Boomer post and I read up on him a little bit- I haven't seen Collins play. So Boomer, thx for the info and hopefully I can see some film of Collins. p.s. you were spot on about Clady- I still like Cherilius, too. A bunch of these OT's coming out would look mighty fine in aqua and orange.

rev kev
02-17-2008, 11:18 PM
I see 3 OT s taken in the top 15 and 5 in the first round and we'll have one damn it...!

TotoreMexico
02-17-2008, 11:35 PM
In the third round the 73rd pick. DL was a much bigger need for them and Okaye was considered a better prospect than Ginn by most teams so we will never know Houston would have done much like the Beck supporters that thin that if Quinn was still there when we chose Beck that we would have passed.

"He was our top-rated defensive player on the board...This kid is an outstanding football player.”

With Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson and Ted Ginn gone, they went for defense

jim1
02-17-2008, 11:37 PM
I see 3 OT s taken in the top 15 and 5 in the first round and we'll have one damn it...!

I sure hope so.

padre31
02-17-2008, 11:37 PM
I won't be pissed off if we pass on JLong at #1. What will piss me off is if we pass on one of the Williams/Baker/Collins/Cherilius type guys at #32 and also fail to get a Flozell Adams type in FA. I realize that there is a flavor of overkill in my argument a la drafting OL #1 and #32 and theorizing about moving Carey back to guard. But if we ended up with Long/Mormino (Hadnot)/Satele/Carey/Cherilius or Williams, Baker, or Collins at LT and Carey back at RT I'm a happy camper, too. This just strikes me as a great year to end the OL misery, I don't know how else to put it.

I think so as well, as sexy as CB and Wr's are, it all starts with running the ball dominantly, and stopping the run, I would not mind a Conner at #32, or Pat Sims, but if we go LT and RG with our #32 and #59, I think we would be ahead of the game.

As for Long, he is massive, he can run block, I saw Gholston blow right by him, Derrick Harvey gave him problems as well.

IMO our third #2, the #62 (it should have been #64 first pick in the 3rd round is actually a late 2nd this year with only 61 players off the board) I would like to see a MLB or TE or CB.

rev kev
02-17-2008, 11:41 PM
I think so as well, as sexy as CB and Wr's are, it all starts with running the ball dominantly, and stopping the run, I would not mind a Conner at #32, or Pat Sims, but if we go LT and RG with our #32 and #59, I think we would be ahead of the game.

As for Long, he is massive, he can run block, I saw Gholston blow right by him, Derrick Harvey gave him problems as well.

IMO our third #2, the #62 (it should have been #64 first pick in the 3rd round is actually a late 2nd this year with only 61 players off the board) I would like to see a MLB or TE or CB.

I don't see two Olinemen on day one... but who knows...

padre31
02-18-2008, 12:01 AM
I don't see two Olinemen on day one... but who knows...

Indeed, why not two lineman on Day 1? I'm curious?

If I could explain:

If we take Chris Long #1 overall, say at DE, we can then take Conner or our MLB at #32, or we can hold off, take a LT at #32, and a lesser MLB prospect at #59, then a Guard on Day 2 at 65/62 we would have our Oline shored up ( in theory) and have our De/Lb, then we can look for a Te or Cb.

Or Cb at 62 and Guard at 98, that is 5 picks out of the first 100 players or the top 50% of the picks, we should do pretty well.

JT#1
02-18-2008, 12:34 AM
So 40 time is mute, as in it doesn't matter. Riiiiighhtt. It's not the end all and be all- quickness and footwork I would imagine are more important, cone drill, shuttle, stuff like that, but don't tell me that it doesn't matter. Or tell Joe Staley, or the 49'ers for that matter. Ask Mr. Staley how much more money is in his bank account because of his 40 time.

If the 40 time is mute, then why does the scouting combine have OL's run it?
For RUN BLOCKING a 40 time is important as you have to pull or get down field . For pass blocking its not a good indicator as you don't run straight ahead to pass block , you do more sidestepping

I am Bane
02-18-2008, 01:12 AM
So 40 time is mute, as in it doesn't matter. Riiiiighhtt. It's not the end all and be all- quickness and footwork I would imagine are more important, cone drill, shuttle, stuff like that, but don't tell me that it doesn't matter. Or tell Joe Staley, or the 49'ers for that matter. Ask Mr. Staley how much more money is in his bank account because of his 40 time.

If the 40 time is mute, then why does the scouting combine have OL's run it?



dude relax, i just talking about in pass blocking is different than running the 40... thats what this guy is getting at too. read my other post too.

dlockz
02-18-2008, 04:09 AM
"He was our top-rated defensive player on the board...This kid is an outstanding football player.”

With Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson and Ted Ginn gone, they went for defense


still no evidence Houston was taking him.

jim1
02-18-2008, 10:34 AM
dude relax, i just talking about in pass blocking is different than running the 40... thats what this guy is getting at too. read my other post too.

Fair enough, but I disagree. A good 40 time indicates an ability to get out of the gate quickly, some explosive movement. Not just a tool for run blocking, which is mainly in the trenches anyway. Again, Joe Staley- I saw him play on TV twice his senior year- I doubt that he was drafted for run blocking, I'll put it that way. He didn't run a great 40 and have scouts think "Geez, I bet he'll be a great run blocker with that 40 time of his".

jim1
02-18-2008, 11:00 AM
No Dlockz is right..........Scott Wright who runs a free website is as knowledgeable as Adam Schefter. :rolleyes2:

Scott Wright may run a free website, but since he drives traffic through the website he's compensated by selling advertising space. Same as Google, Yahoo, and our own FinHeaven. The point is that it may be a free site but he's getting paid to do his draft analysis. Personally I like his stuff- great Senior Bowl reporting among other things.

emocomputerjock
02-18-2008, 11:48 AM
Scott Wright may run a free website, but since he drives traffic through the website he's compensated by selling advertising space. Same as Google, Yahoo, and our own FinHeaven. The point is that it may be a free site but he's getting paid to do his draft analysis. Personally I like his stuff- great Senior Bowl reporting among other things.

I'll say this: you don't know boo about Adam Schefter then.

jim1
02-18-2008, 11:56 AM
I'll say this: you don't know boo about Adam Schefter then.

No, I'm not terribly familiar with his stuff. I don't get NFL Network on my cable tv.

TotoreMexico
02-18-2008, 12:09 PM
still no evidence Houston was taking him.

Yeah Adam Schefter and Randy Mueller are making up stuff:rolleyes:

emocomputerjock
02-18-2008, 12:13 PM
No, I'm not terribly familiar with his stuff. I don't get NFL Network on my cable tv.

It's not Schefter's prescience or knack for calling the pick from months out that does it, it's his network of contacts. He knows who the pick is going to be before it happens not only because he does his homework, but because the guys who are doing the picking are telling him who they're picking - and he's very, very, very rarely fooled. He's got every angle on every player and how teams have them rated months before the draft and everytime a team changes their board. The guy is very, very good to listen to in terms of drafts.

jim1
02-18-2008, 12:22 PM
It's not Schefter's prescience or knack for calling the pick from months out that does it, it's his network of contacts. He knows who the pick is going to be before it happens not only because he does his homework, but because the guys who are doing the picking are telling him who they're picking - and he's very, very, very rarely fooled. He's got every angle on every player and how teams have them rated months before the draft and everytime a team changes their board. The guy is very, very good to listen to in terms of drafts.

Thx for the heads up, I'll check him out.

fishypete
02-18-2008, 01:28 PM
you don't pay #1 pick money on a RT. Its just not a wise investment

But in who's opinion...is he a RT and only a RT? Let me remind everyone that Carey played guard and RT...while at Miami....yet he's the Dolphins LT.

dlockz
02-19-2008, 06:34 AM
Yeah Adam Schefter and Randy Mueller are making up stuff:rolleyes:


Please for the love of god understand what I am going to say. I believe that Mueller and Shefter may have had sources that said that Houston was going to take GInn. We also had sources that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction . The so called sources could have been misinformation. I mean did anybody not believe that Quinn was not our target this year.I say and believe that none of the sources were within the Houston organization. If Mueller had info that Houston was going to take Ginn the why didn't Houston have sources to let them know they had no chance.
Even if thier sources had the Texans drafting Ginn, the info could not be so up to date that it would have accounted for Okaye dropping.

Never said that anybody is making up stuff. Shefter is a reporter and sources can be wrong. Have you ever heard Chris Moretenson say that sources have told him such and such. As for Mueller have may have believed from sources that it was going to happen but I definately think it would be a violation of the NFL rules for Mueller to get inside info from someone actually involved with the Texan's draft. As for Kubiak admitting that they targetted Ginn as thier pick I have seen no evidence of that and have never heard GM's say they settled for another player.

Boomer
02-19-2008, 07:46 AM
But in who's opinion...is he a RT and only a RT? Let me remind everyone that Carey played guard and RT...while at Miami....yet he's the Dolphins LT.

You forgot to write: "Out of necessity".

jim1
02-19-2008, 07:54 AM
You forgot to write: "Out of necessity".

Still curious as to your opinion on Carey- keep him at LT, move him to RT, or move him to Guard if we snag some of this OL talent in the draft? Could Guard be actually his best position? I asked earlier, but don't remember which thread, what's your opinion of Hadnot and Mormino. Cheers.

Boomer
02-19-2008, 09:44 AM
Still curious as to your opinion on Carey- keep him at LT, move him to RT, or move him to Guard if we snag some of this OL talent in the draft? Could Guard be actually his best position? I asked earlier, but don't remember which thread, what's your opinion of Hadnot and Mormino. Cheers.

I think he's a Pro Bowl calibre RT who had a good first half of the season at LT, but struggled over the second half. I think guards are easier to find than tackles as well, so unless you sign a Flozell Adams and then take a run at a RFA like David Stewart or indeed draft Jake Long, then that's about the only scenario I could envisage where Vernon goes inside.

Hadnot is serviceable, can play dual positions at a starters level, is mobile, but is probably going to get a $25/30 million contract in FA and that might come elsewhere. Mormino was a good player in college and he has a tough, snotknocking, leaders mentality that the coaches will like. If he's bulked up and used the weight room, he could be a nice surprise.

fishypete
02-19-2008, 11:41 AM
You forgot to write: "Out of necessity".

Thank you my friend for reminding me to add that. :up:

Boomer....what do you think of the idea of signing a guy like Haynesworth to a contract...yes it would cost a couple draft picks but he's far better a tackle than anyone I can see in the draft...of course it would depend if the Dolphins use a straight 3-4 defense. I believe it would far cheaper to sign him than a rookie in the number one spot...and with a rookie you just don't know what you will get in return.

emocomputerjock
02-19-2008, 11:59 AM
Please for the love of god understand what I am going to say. I believe that Mueller and Shefter may have had sources that said that Houston was going to take GInn. We also had sources that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction . The so called sources could have been misinformation. I mean did anybody not believe that Quinn was not our target this year.I say and believe that none of the sources were within the Houston organization. If Mueller had info that Houston was going to take Ginn the why didn't Houston have sources to let them know they had no chance.
Even if thier sources had the Texans drafting Ginn, the info could not be so up to date that it would have accounted for Okaye dropping.

Never said that anybody is making up stuff. Shefter is a reporter and sources can be wrong. Have you ever heard Chris Moretenson say that sources have told him such and such. As for Mueller have may have believed from sources that it was going to happen but I definately think it would be a violation of the NFL rules for Mueller to get inside info from someone actually involved with the Texan's draft. As for Kubiak admitting that they targetted Ginn as thier pick I have seen no evidence of that and have never heard GM's say they settled for another player.

You've been wrong about Carey for 4 years now, I expect at least that long until you give up the ghost on Ginn.

BlueFin
02-19-2008, 12:13 PM
But in who's opinion...is he a RT and only a RT? Let me remind everyone that Carey played guard and RT...while at Miami....yet he's the Dolphins LT.

Really? No kidding?;)

fishypete
02-19-2008, 12:55 PM
Really? No kidding?;)

Trust me...I wouldn't kidd you...:lol:

dlockz
02-19-2008, 03:00 PM
You've been wrong about Carey for 4 years now, I expect at least that long until you give up the ghost on Ginn.


How was I wrong about Carey. Its pretty widely held knowledege that the Vikings bluffed us out of the forth round pick to move up one spot. The Gm actually came out and said they had no offers on table and were set on taking Udezee the whole time. This was not a matter of some unknown source that you choose to believe this was a case of the actual Gm speaking about the trade down. I dont know, just because you put in a message board post that I am wrong does not make it so lol.

emocomputerjock
02-19-2008, 03:28 PM
How was I wrong about Carey. Its pretty widely held knowledege that the Vikings bluffed us out of the forth round pick to move up one spot. The Gm actually came out and said they had no offers on table and were set on taking Udezee the whole time. This was not a matter of some unknown source that you choose to believe this was a case of the actual Gm speaking about the trade down. I dont know, just because you put in a message board post that I am wrong does not make it so lol.

You're wrong about the reach of Carey, you're wrong about the reach on Ginn. You've been presented with evidence proving you wrong for 4 years now, and the most knowledgable of the posters on this board have been proving you wrong for that amount of time.

Now that I think about it, I think I'll join them in just letting you go off and do your thing. Show 'em sparky! Stick with it long enough and you might revise history!

fishypete
02-19-2008, 04:12 PM
You're wrong about the reach of Carey, you're wrong about the reach on Ginn. You've been presented with evidence proving you wrong for 4 years now, and the most knowledgable of the posters on this board have been proving you wrong for that amount of time.

Now that I think about it, I think I'll join them in just letting you go off and do your thing. Show 'em sparky! Stick with it long enough and you might revise history!

As long as Ginn plays both as a returner and a receiver and is nothing more than average at both...he was and will be known as a reach with the 9th pick in the draft. You can not excell at both positions...either your great at one or the other.

emocomputerjock
02-19-2008, 04:23 PM
As long as Ginn plays both as a returner and a receiver and is nothing more than average at both...he was and will be known as a reach with the 9th pick in the draft. You can not excell at both positions...either your great at one or the other.

I'm not going to get in depth with this, seeing as the statement and the facts have been posted prior - but Ted Ginn was selected in the draft right where he was expected to go: the top 15, 2nd WR overall. He's not a reach, and never will be.

Two Tacos
02-19-2008, 04:32 PM
As long as Ginn plays both as a returner and a receiver and is nothing more than average at both...he was and will be known as a reach with the 9th pick in the draft. You can not excell at both positions...either your great at one or the other.

Why? It's funny how many things can't be done, until they are done. Ginn looked good at both last year, and if he continues to improve like he was, he will be great at both.

fishypete
02-19-2008, 04:33 PM
I'm not going to get in depth with this, seeing as the statement and the facts have been posted prior - but Ted Ginn was selected in the draft right where he was expected to go: the top 15, 2nd WR overall. He's not a reach, and never will be.

What the heck does where he was picked determine whether the player was a reach or not. If he never makes it as a receiver...regardless where he was picked...he wasn't worth it. How many receivers are picked in the middle or late rounds and play for 8-10 years...producing those years. When Ginn played at O.S. he never had great numbers...yet he was chosen over far better receivers that did...if thats not a reach...I'm sorry I don't know what is.
Ginn was the Dolphins selections for two reasons...one that he knew the headcoach and the other he has footspeed...not because he earned it by production. I won't say that Ginn can't become a decent receiver...but until then he wasn't worth the 9th pick in the draft.

fishypete
02-19-2008, 04:36 PM
Why? It's funny how many things can't be done, until they are done. Ginn looked good at both last year, and if he continues to improve like he was, he will be great at both.

Whats funny is how Dolphin fans are so easily satisfied when they look at a players stats...take a good look at Ginns stats...you'll see they are very average...both as a returner and as a receiver.

The Confessor
02-19-2008, 04:37 PM
But in who's opinion...is he a RT and only a RT? Let me remind everyone that Carey played guard and RT...while at Miami....yet he's the Dolphins LT.


Perfect. Thanks for making my arguement

Believe me when I say NOBODY was going to even think anybody was going to draft V-Carey at #1 :up:. Why would you draft another RT/LT project at #1?

fishypete
02-19-2008, 04:41 PM
Perfect. Thanks for making my arguement

Believe me when I say NOBODY was going to even think anybody was going to draft V-Carey at #1 :up:. Why would you draft another RT/LT project at #1?

I would say the difference is that J. Long played at LT...while Carey didn't. Almost half the running yards acquired by Michigan came from Longs side...and Long plays like he's a defender...something I like in a offensive player.

Two Tacos
02-19-2008, 04:53 PM
Whats funny is how Dolphin fans are so easily satisfied when they look at a players stats...take a good look at Ginns stats...you'll see they are very average...both as a returner and as a receiver.

I never mentioned stats. I was talking about his play on the field. He was the best WR we had last year (post CC trade), and the only one that demanded special attention from the defense. His and L. Bookers emergence later in the season were the only really bright spots in the passing game. He also did quite well returning the ball. I expect good things from him as both the offence and special teams improve as units.

Your statement that he couldn’t do both since to your mind no one else had done both is a poor argument. It’s like saying, “that Sammy Baugh kid needs to decide if he is a wingback or a tailback, what’s with this quarterback nonsense?”

dlockz
02-19-2008, 04:57 PM
You're wrong about the reach of Carey, you're wrong about the reach on Ginn. You've been presented with evidence proving you wrong for 4 years now, and the most knowledgable of the posters on this board have been proving you wrong for that amount of time.

Now that I think about it, I think I'll join them in just letting you go off and do your thing. Show 'em sparky! Stick with it long enough and you might revise history!


You have never proved me wrong on one thing. Have I been wrong on anything of course but I definately have a pretty good track record being right no matter how you want to spin it.

We were fooled out of a pick by Minnesota and you choose to believe something that is not true. Please let me go off and do my thing.

If you want to disprove my statememt thats fine but you have offered nothing in this conversation except to blankly state the most knowledgable of posters has proven me wrong. You have a very loose definition of proof.
You can repeat any statement you want over and over again and that still does not take the place of proof.

Just because something that is said is not popular does not take away from the possibility of truth. We had no reason to trade to move up one pick and take Vernon Carey because Minnesota was going to take Udeeze no matter what. Minnesota admitted that they fleeced us. The people on this board that pay attention know this part of the equation to be correct.

I have no doubt that both Mueller and Shefter possibly thought that Houston was going to take Ginn that still does not make it so. If you want to argue the Minnesota thing thats fine, you are wrong and that was put out a few years ago.As for the Houston thing there is no evidence either way that has been presented so how can I be wrong.

I love your statement on revising history. History is based on facts not some undisclosed source. History and rumors are quite differant.

Some people still believe that Washington had wooden teeth. I bet you think the us hockey team beat the russian team for the gold medal in 1980 also.

Two Tacos
02-19-2008, 05:17 PM
You have never proved me wrong on one thing. Have I been wrong on anything of course but I definately have a pretty good track record being right no matter how you want to spin it.

We were fooled out of a pick by Minnesota and you choose to believe something that is not true. Please let me go off and do my thing.

If you want to disprove my statememt thats fine but you have offered nothing in this conversation except to blankly state the most knowledgable of posters has proven me wrong. You have a very loose definition of proof.
You can repeat any statement you want over and over again and that still does not take the place of proof.

Just because something that is said is not popular does not take away from the possibility of truth. We had no reason to trade to move up one pick and take Vernon Carey because Minnesota was going to take Udeeze no matter what. Minnesota admitted that they fleeced us. The people on this board that pay attention know this part of the equation to be correct.

I have no doubt that both Mueller and Shefter possibly thought that Houston was going to take Ginn that still does not make it so. If you want to argue the Minnesota thing thats fine, you are wrong and that was put out a few years ago.As for the Houston thing there is no evidence either way that has been presented so how can I be wrong.

I love your statement on revising history. History is based on facts not some undisclosed source. History and rumors are quite differant.

Some people still believe that Washington had wooden teeth. I bet you think the us hockey team beat the russian team for the gold medal in 1980 also.



Um no, Mike Tice and Minnesota maintained that there were offers and even had the specifics of the offer from the Pats. Billy B. denied that it happened, but double-talked his denial saying, “trade discussions are common”. This is all really water under the bridge though, the Carey pick was several administrations ago…


http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/

dlockz
02-19-2008, 05:43 PM
Um no, Mike Tice and Minnesota maintained that there were offers and even had the specifics of the offer from the Pats. Billy B. denied that it happened, but double-talked his denial saying, “trade discussions are common”. This is all really water under the bridge though, the Carey pick was several administrations ago…


http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/ (http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/)

Of course Mike Tice tryed to perpetrate that somebody was trading up, thats the game that all teams play, we just got played out of a 4th round pick.


That was of april 25th, later Minnesota acknowledged that there was no offer from NE to move up. In your own article Bill Belichek denied that he tried to move up. I dont see how you or the paper can imply that him saying trade discussions are common means he was lying.

Thats like saying I did not kill my wife, but people kill people all the time.

The Confessor
02-19-2008, 05:43 PM
I would say the difference is that J. Long played at LT...while Carey didn't. Almost half the running yards acquired by Michigan came from Longs side...and Long plays like he's a defender...something I like in a offensive player.


And again...making my point

The fact that he is a GREAT tackle to run behind and not nessecerily a great pass-blocker, pretty much dictates him being a RT in the Pros..........

dlockz
02-19-2008, 05:50 PM
Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

The Confessor
02-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

Actually, that's not the arguement at all.

I wont argue that Jake is a better LT than Vernon Carey...and I wont argue that he is the best tackle coming out...but I WILL argue that he isnt the best LT coming out, and I will definately argue that he isnt worth the value of the #1 overall...

lbmclean_sj
02-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

why would we base such a decision on being "much better than what we've got"?

every player is the first round is much better than we have

if we get lucky a much better LT prospect than Long and Carey might fall to us at #32

we need someone closer to Walter Jones/Jason Peters than Jake Long. someone with sweet feet who isn't necessarily the greatest run blocker in the world

PeterNorth
02-19-2008, 06:04 PM
Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

Perhaps-still doesn't make Long worthy of being considered at #1, imo.

dlockz
02-19-2008, 06:10 PM
Whether he is worth the first pick is a matter of perception. Alex smith and Ronnie Brown were not worthy of thier draft status but they were in a weak draft and they were positions of need.

I personally think that Dorsey is the only guy worthy of the top pick but alot of people say he does not fit scheme.

Long is just as good a first round pick as Long or Ryan. I personally hope we trade down.

Two Tacos
02-19-2008, 06:25 PM
Of course Mike Tice tryed to perpetrate that somebody was trading up, thats the game that all teams play, we just got played out of a 4th round pick.


That was of april 25th, later Minnesota acknowledged that there was no offer from NE to move up. In your own article Bill Belichek denied that he tried to move up. I dont see how you or the paper can imply that him saying trade discussions are common means he was lying.

I don't remeber ever hearing that. Why would they lie about it after the fact, and then change their story? But whatever, it doesn't really matter.



Thats like saying I did not kill my wife, but people kill people all the time.

No it's like being asked if you killed your wife and saying, "no, but I kill people all the time." Slightly, but importantly different.

dlockz
02-19-2008, 06:33 PM
I don't remeber ever hearing that. Why would they lie about it after the fact, and then change their story? But whatever, it doesn't really matter.



No it's like being asked if you killed your wife and saying, "no, but I kill people all the time." Slightly, but importantly different.


His words in the article were
Bill Belichick denied having pursued Carey, saying trade discussions are common and that the Patriots had no plans to move up in the first round.

So I think Im more on base.


Teams lie or bluff each other all the time.

jim1
02-19-2008, 06:39 PM
It's not Schefter's prescience or knack for calling the pick from months out that does it, it's his network of contacts. He knows who the pick is going to be before it happens not only because he does his homework, but because the guys who are doing the picking are telling him who they're picking - and he's very, very, very rarely fooled. He's got every angle on every player and how teams have them rated months before the draft and everytime a team changes their board. The guy is very, very good to listen to in terms of drafts.

My favorite of all time is Joel Buchsbaum- I miss that guy.

Boomer
02-19-2008, 07:15 PM
Thank you my friend for reminding me to add that. :up:

Boomer....what do you think of the idea of signing a guy like Haynesworth to a contract...yes it would cost a couple draft picks but he's far better a tackle than anyone I can see in the draft...of course it would depend if the Dolphins use a straight 3-4 defense. I believe it would far cheaper to sign him than a rookie in the number one spot...and with a rookie you just don't know what you will get in return.

I think his off field issues, over and above the Gurode incident would make me think not. And he's a NG not a NT.

csabe
02-19-2008, 07:15 PM
Jake Long reminds me of John Tait, a very solid tackle who can play either side but is a better player on the right. He is somewhat limited in terms of pass protection imo.

Two Tacos
02-19-2008, 07:49 PM
His words in the article were
Bill Belichick denied having pursued Carey, saying trade discussions are common and that the Patriots had no plans to move up in the first round.

So I think Im more on base.


Teams lie or bluff each other all the time.

Ok, this is the last time I post on this issue. I didn't argue that Bill denied it. I just said that he did it with double speak, which he did. The point was that Mike Tice said differently, which goes against your contention that Min admitted to it being nothing but a bluff. Could it have been? Sure. I understand that you say that Min later admitted it was a bluff, but I could not find anything to support this. If it did happen then fine, you are right. I don't remember this happening though. Also, if it's a he said she said, between Billy and Mike; I side with the guy who can get me tickets.

dlockz
02-19-2008, 08:42 PM
Ok, this is the last time I post on this issue. I didn't argue that Bill denied it. I just said that he did it with double speak, which he did. The point was that Mike Tice said differently, which goes against your contention that Min admitted to it being nothing but a bluff. Could it have been? Sure. I understand that you say that Min later admitted it was a bluff, but I could not find anything to support this. If it did happen then fine, you are right. I don't remember this happening though. Also, if it's a he said she said, between Billy and Mike; I side with the guy who can get me tickets.


I do appreciate that you brought the article into the discussion. Its very hard to bring up old articles sometimes. I keep trying to find the sentinal article where Mueller was interviewed and the reporter said that Mueller admiited that Beck was not rated higher than Quinn by the dolphins. I do remember Minnesota coming out and admitting it well after the draft but finding that on the interenet has been less than fruitful. If other people do not recall this and disagree it happened ,fine , but for other people not you trying to call me out without any other proof to the otherwise and acting like I have been proven wrong makes no sense. You are right it really does not matter and its over and done. None of us actually have privey to any teams draftboards so its all speculation on our part although some of us like to act like we like we know for sure. Almost all of our thoughts about drafts are based on the reports and studies of people that are not actually drafting that year. I advocated taking Levi Brown at 9 last year and some people thought he was a reach. There were many on this board that said we should take Joe Staley at 9 and probably would have insisted that he was not a reach at 9. Before the draft not one person said Quinn was a reach but because he fell in the draft, all of a sudden he would have been a reach. No player that is being considered for the first overall pick in the draft is a reach at number 9. When we all speak about reaches its usually more perception than reality. Teams that are perveived as reaching are usually drafting a particular position rather than BPA. Hell one of our top defensive players was one of the biggest reaches of all time, Tim Bowens.

TotoreMexico
02-19-2008, 11:26 PM
Please for the love of god understand what I am going to say. I believe that Mueller and Shefter may have had sources that said that Houston was going to take GInn. We also had sources that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction . The so called sources could have been misinformation. I mean did anybody not believe that Quinn was not our target this year.I say and believe that none of the sources were within the Houston organization. If Mueller had info that Houston was going to take Ginn the why didn't Houston have sources to let them know they had no chance.
Even if thier sources had the Texans drafting Ginn, the info could not be so up to date that it would have accounted for Okaye dropping.

Never said that anybody is making up stuff. Shefter is a reporter and sources can be wrong. Have you ever heard Chris Moretenson say that sources have told him such and such. As for Mueller have may have believed from sources that it was going to happen but I definately think it would be a violation of the NFL rules for Mueller to get inside info from someone actually involved with the Texan's draft. As for Kubiak admitting that they targetted Ginn as thier pick I have seen no evidence of that and have never heard GM's say they settled for another player.

So it was all misinformation:rolleyes2:

fishypete
02-19-2008, 11:50 PM
Jake Long reminds me of John Tait, a very solid tackle who can play either side but is a better player on the right. He is somewhat limited in terms of pass protection imo.

He only gave up one sack last year.

I am Bane
02-19-2008, 11:51 PM
what is with you guys... food names and food pictures... two tacos, general tsao, all you guys make me sooooooo freaking hungry it is ridiculous. stop it. i am trying not to be fat thank you, and at these late hours i sit and talk and stare at your delicious name things, and your savory pictures, you are ruining it for me.

fishypete
02-19-2008, 11:54 PM
And again...making my point

The fact that he is a GREAT tackle to run behind and not nessecerily a great pass-blocker, pretty much dictates him being a RT in the Pros..........

Since the Dolphins will run more than pass...he'll be perfect...and with all that said...Long only gave up one sack all season last year...so that makes my point.

dlockz
02-20-2008, 12:14 AM
So it was all misinformation:rolleyes2:


Who knows. Unless somebody from the Texans team that was involved in the draft wants to talk about it. It is very possible that the Houston Texans were targeting Ginn and very possible they were not, it is very possible they played up Ginn as a smokescreen. Just because Adam Shefter said his sources revealed that does not prove anything. Like I said how many times has Chris Mortenson put out info that was not correct. The only thing that will prove to me that Houston was taking Ginn would be someone from thier draft room saying it, not the infamous sources. All you ever get from Gm's is gmspeak like we got exactly who we were looking at. I'm also sure that Houston had sources telling the we were probably going to take Brady Quinn but we know how that turned out.

It all really doesn't matter because for better or worse Ginn was our pick.
There were much better picks left on the board and much worse picks.

Boomer
02-20-2008, 07:52 AM
Since the Dolphins will run more than pass...he'll be perfect...and with all that said...Long only gave up one sack all season last year...so that makes my point.


I'm not sure it makes your point at all. You have to look at the run pass ratio's, especially considering for much of the season the Wolverines ran with a true freshman QB and against the quality of end he played against and the blocking schemes they use.

A blind man would tell you that Jeff Otah is a better pure pass blocker than Jake Long. But Otah "gave up more sacks".

Boomer
02-20-2008, 10:51 AM
With Miami having a pretty serious interest in Chris Williams, I'd expect that #1 pick to be on Long or Dorsey.

Ghetti13
02-20-2008, 11:04 AM
The Jake Long "only gave up one sack all year" stuff is a little overblown for two reasons. First, the Wolverines run the ball constantly. For instance, Hart ran it over 40 times against Penn State. This limited the situations where he was really asked to pass block.

Beyond that and more importantly, trust your eyes and not the stats. Long was beaten quite frequently by all kinds of defensive players. Problem is, the guys around him struggled even more than he did. As a result, the player who beat them got to the quarterback before the player who beat long. My eyes tell me that Long is really going to struggle at the next level especially if he is asked to play left tackle.

Also, I have no idea why Long's strength is not more of an issue. I have never seen such a "highly regarded" offensive linemen bull rushed onto his back or into the quarterback more frequently.

jim1
02-20-2008, 11:04 AM
With Miami having a pretty serious interest in Chris Williams, I'd expect that #1 pick to be on Long or Dorsey.

If Williams and Albert were sitting there at #32 who would you take? If Cherilius were there at #57 would you even consider playing Carey at Guard (assuming Williams or Albert were to play LT)?

I keep going through this in my mind and keep coming to the same conclusion- we can resolve the long standing OL issues in this draft if we want to, and if we do so we may have the foundation of one of the best offensive lines in football. Finally.

fishypete
02-20-2008, 11:58 AM
I'm not sure it makes your point at all. You have to look at the run pass ratio's, especially considering for much of the season the Wolverines ran with a true freshman QB and against the quality of end he played against and the blocking schemes they use.

A blind man would tell you that Jeff Otah is a better pure pass blocker than Jake Long. But Otah "gave up more sacks".

Otah is super raw...another LT project...we have had enough of them.

2007: Finished second in the voting for the Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy…Unanimous All-Big Ten Conference first-team pick and named the league's Offensive Lineman of the Year for the second-straight season…Added Academic All-Big Ten Conference honors… Hugh R. Rader Jr. Memorial Award recipient as Michigan's top offensive lineman and received the Mike Gittleson Award, given to the U-M player who exhibits a resolute work ethic and commitment to preparing for the game...Served as team captain for the second consecutive campaign, starting all thirteen games at left offensive tackle…Helped the team average 385.1 yards per game…The Wolverines amassed 1,251 of their 2,144 yards on the ground over Long's left tackle position, as he registered 119 knockdowns, including 18 touchdown-resulting blocks…Allowed only one quarterback sack on 423 pass plays and was penalized just once, finishing with an 87.85% grade for blocking consistency…Also recorded one solo tackle. All-American, started all 13 games at left tackle in '06. Missed time w/ankle injury. Played in final five games and started four games at left tackle in '05. All-Big Ten second team in '04. Did not see game action in '03.

Only one sack on 423 pass plays. What more do you want?
There's no perfect LT...only great ones...and he's the Dolphins best and only chance with the first pick....of course we could get lucky and find a trading partner and trade down...then what....select the next best player...there's risk in every player. We have to finally take care of the LT position....without that I don't care who the QB will be for the Dolphins...he won't have the time to make plays...he'll be running for his life as they have since Webb left.

rev kev
02-20-2008, 12:08 PM
If Williams and Albert were sitting there at #32 who would you take? If Cherilius were there at #57 would you even consider playing Carey at Guard (assuming Williams or Albert were to play LT)?

I keep going through this in my mind and keep coming to the same conclusion- we can resolve the long standing OL issues in this draft if we want to, and if we do so we may have the foundation of one of the best offensive lines in football. Finally.

Preachin to the choir baby... :hi5:

We'll dictate the offensive game..., run heavily..., audible..., play-action pass when they play 8 in the box... Then we'll see how good Beck is... We'll see how good Ginn is... We already know how RB plays..., LOBO looked very good in limited action... There should be no QB excuses... when the QB has time to make at least a second possibly third read...

Stitches
02-20-2008, 12:08 PM
If Williams and Albert were sitting there at #32 who would you take? If Cherilius were there at #57 would you even consider playing Carey at Guard (assuming Williams or Albert were to play LT)?

I keep going through this in my mind and keep coming to the same conclusion- we can resolve the long standing OL issues in this draft if we want to, and if we do so we may have the foundation of one of the best offensive lines in football. Finally.

At #32, I would order my preference (assuming Otah is long gone):
1. Albert
2. Williams
3. Collins
4. Baker

If Cherilus were there at #57, it would be difficult for me to take him unless we took Albert at 32. If you managed to steal Albert at 32 and Cherilus at 57, that is a pretty formidable looking OL. All you need is a RG (maybe get lucky with someone like Randy Thomas).

LT-Carey
LG-Albert
C-Satele
RG-Thomas
RT-Cherilus.

Of course the chances of Albert being at 32, and Cherilus at 57, AND having us take both of them are pretty slim.

Ghetti13
02-20-2008, 12:09 PM
Jake Long is not even the best tackle in this draft. In fact, he is not even the second best. To make matters worse, he is not even a left tackle.

Stats are so misleading. Long will struggle at the next level to anchor against strong defensive linemen and kick out against fast defensive linemen. There is no way Miami would draft Long having looked at the tape. I refuse to believe they are that incompetent.

Ghetti13
02-20-2008, 12:11 PM
Cherilus is limited athletically and is far from a road grader. I think he may end up being one of those players who can start but are always in the process of being replaced. He is a good football player and will give a team depth, but I question taking him as early as some are considering.

rev kev
02-20-2008, 12:13 PM
With Miami having a pretty serious interest in Chris Williams, I'd expect that #1 pick to be on Long or Dorsey.

I'm good with that..., just please..., heavily draft/pick D & Olinemen who can compete every play..., not freakin projects tired of projects...

Stitches
02-20-2008, 12:13 PM
Cherilus is limited athletically and is far from a road grader. I think he may end up being one of those players who can start but are always in the process of being replaced. He is a good football player and will give a team depth, but I question taking him as early as some are considering.

Cherilus should go in the 40-50 range IMO, and I think he will be an excellent RT. He is limited athletically, and that's why he struggled at LT and is far better suited on the right sde of the line.

Ghetti13
02-20-2008, 12:19 PM
I am reluctant to label him an excellent right tackle. I am more comfortable with describing him as an adequate right tackle. I say this because excellent right tackles make up for their athletic limitations with excellent strength. Cherilus does not do this. He is limited athletically with average strength. That is why I believe he will be merely adequate to the point where he is always on the fringe of being replaced.

emocomputerjock
02-20-2008, 12:24 PM
Otah is super raw...another LT project...we have had enough of them.

2007: Finished second in the voting for the Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy…Unanimous All-Big Ten Conference first-team pick and named the league's Offensive Lineman of the Year for the second-straight season…Added Academic All-Big Ten Conference honors… Hugh R. Rader Jr. Memorial Award recipient as Michigan's top offensive lineman and received the Mike Gittleson Award, given to the U-M player who exhibits a resolute work ethic and commitment to preparing for the game...Served as team captain for the second consecutive campaign, starting all thirteen games at left offensive tackle…Helped the team average 385.1 yards per game…The Wolverines amassed 1,251 of their 2,144 yards on the ground over Long's left tackle position, as he registered 119 knockdowns, including 18 touchdown-resulting blocks…Allowed only one quarterback sack on 423 pass plays and was penalized just once, finishing with an 87.85% grade for blocking consistency…Also recorded one solo tackle. All-American, started all 13 games at left tackle in '06. Missed time w/ankle injury. Played in final five games and started four games at left tackle in '05. All-Big Ten second team in '04. Did not see game action in '03.

Only one sack on 423 pass plays. What more do you want?
There's no perfect LT...only great ones...and he's the Dolphins best and only chance with the first pick....of course we could get lucky and find a trading partner and trade down...then what....select the next best player...there's risk in every player. We have to finally take care of the LT position....without that I don't care who the QB will be for the Dolphins...he won't have the time to make plays...he'll be running for his life as they have since Webb left.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Lemme tell you something, professionally: if you can solve a specific problem and at the same time you solve other problems, that's the course of action you take every time. There's nothing that says we have to take Long OR ELSE, and there are several other *very* qualified candidates who are equally as capable of playing LT. If you don't think Clady or Otah are among those (or Williams or Collins) are capable, you need to come up with something remotely approaching facts.

Then again, allow me to do the work for you again.

Clady's blurb, right from your http://www.nfldraftscout.com site.

2007: Became just the second BSU player to earn All-American honors since the team entered the Division 1-A ranks in 1996, joining running back Ian Johnson (29006 by Sports Illustrated)…Became the first Bronco since 1994 (defensive end Joe O'Brian) to garner All-American recognition from the AFCA…Unanimous All-Western Athletic Conference first-team choice…Member of the Outland Trophy and Lombardi Award Watch Lists…Started all thirteen games at the demanding left offensive tackle position…With the team emphasizing the aerial attack more often in 2007, the running attack ranks only 33rd in the nation (184.92 ypg), but the passing game improved from 52nd nationally in 2006 (206.46 ypg) to 23rd in 2007 (282.46 ypg)…The Broncos also placed 12th in the nation in total offense (467.38 ypg) and fourth in scoring (42.38 ppg)…Clady was charged with six penalties (five false starts, one holding), including four vs. Washington, and allowed 3.5 sacks for losses of 23 yards, but the opposition saw him produce 122 knockdowns, 21 touchdown-resulting blocks and eight blocks downfield to finish with an 85.77% grade for blocking consistency…Graded at least 90% in five contests. Named second-team All-America by SI.com…Named first-team All-WAC…Started all 13 games at left tackle in '06. Named first-team Freshman All-America by ESPN.com, second-team Freshman All-America by Rivals.com and CollegeFootballNews.com and third-team Freshman All-America by The Sporting News...Started 11 of Boise State’s 13 games at right tackle in '05. Redshirted in '04.

Otah: 2007: All-Big East Conference first-team selection…Recipient of the team's Ed Conway Award, given to the Panthers' Most Improved Player…Started all twelve games at the demanding left offensive tackle, helping the offense average 141.4 yards on the ground and 319.5 yards in total offense per game…Delivered 101 knockdowns, with thirteen resulting in touchdowns, as he graded 82.0% for blocking consistency…Had five of his blocks down field and was penalized twice…Saw his main coverage assignments register 8.5 quarter-back sacks and four pressures on 811 offensive snaps. Started all 12 games at left offensive tackle as a first-year JUCO transfer in '06. Considered one of the nation's top junior-college offensive line prospects, two-year starter at offensive tackle at Valley Forge Military Academy's two-year college, named Most Valuable Player of the Seaboard Conference, two-time first team All-Seaboard Conference, led Valley Forge to two conference co-championships.

Williams: 2007: Started all twelve contests at left tackle, receiving the top blocking grade for consistency (85.67%) of any down lineman in the SEC, as he produced 102 knockdowns/key blocks, including twelve that resulted in touchdowns while allowing only one quarterback sack and one pressure on 836 offensive snaps…Was one of the major reasons that the Commodores averaged 326.6 yards per game in total offense, leading an offensive line that allowed only seventeen sacks for losses totaling 109 yards. Developed into the Commodores' top offensive lineman and one of the premier tackles in the Southeastern Conference… League coaches tabbed Williams as a postseason second team All-SEC recipient in '06. Earned nine consecutive starts at left guard, though he played just as frequently at left tackle in '05. Participated as practice squad offensive tackle in '04. Redshirted in '03.

Collins: 2007: Consensus All-Big Twelve Conference first-team selection…Named a finalist for the Outland Trophy (nation's top lineman)…Saw action in twelve games, starting eleven contests at left offensive tackle…Sat out the first series of the Toledo clash due to a disciplinary issue and did not play vs. Iowa State due to a right ankle sprain…Registered 108 knockdowns with fifteen touchdown-resulting blocks for an offense that averaged 479.8 yards per game, including 291.0 yards passing…Was penalized twice (once each vs. Missouri and Virginia Tech) and allowed six sacks for losses of 41 yards and three quarterback pressures on 476 pass plays…Finished with an 83.25% grade for blocking consistency.

Doesn't look too shabby, now does it. Indeed, the fact that there are a lot of good tackles in the draft makes it more imperative that we pick up a special, special player in Dorsey or Chris Long at the top of the draft and solidify the offensive line with one of our later picks. Any of the 4 other linemen I've listed above will be able to do the job, and I'm betting that at least 2 are available at 32 (if we don't trade down).