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FinsFan74
02-15-2008, 03:45 PM
1st off let me say that I am in no way, shape, or form supporting the New England Patriots in this thread. 2nd I have a scenario to ask everyone's opinion on. Given the recent news about the Patriots "spying" fiasco, I'm curious to see what you all would do or like to see happen in the future. We know teams have spied in the past, the Patriots just happened to get caught after trying to make an art out of it. Of course spying will always be illegal, but here is something to ponder.
Would you rather.......
A)have a good run over a decade winning several Super Bowls along the way, only to have them "tarnished" forever because you were singled out and caught spying......or
B) Allow ALL teams to videotape (all in so to speak) so if you win those Super Bowls there won't be any "scandalous" asterisk by it forever?

trayphin
02-15-2008, 03:53 PM
You forgot:
C) Win a championship through honesty, hardwork, and dedication.

I wouldn't be surprised if after this is all said and done that we see headsets in defensive captains helmets to eliminate the problem entirely. Yes there are some issues with different players for different defensive sets...but they will find a way around that.

SpaceMountain16
02-15-2008, 04:15 PM
The Patriots aren't the only team to have cheated, they were the ones caught, and because they spied on teams doesn't lessen how good of a team they are and have been. Does it tarnish their legacy, certainly. Will they lose their Super Bowls or their place in history as a modern day dynasty, no. 3 of 4 Super Bowls in the Salary Cap era is incredible and will never be duplicated.

I have a bigger issue with the Patriots because they are bunch of classless jerks who cheat, Bill Belichick is a completely classless creep. Tom Brady is still one of the best QB's to ever play the game, and again, the Patriots of this decade surely have to rank right up with the 90's Cowboys and 70's Steelers and 80's 49ers.

FinsFan74
02-15-2008, 04:21 PM
You forgot:
C) Win a championship through honesty, hardwork, and dedication.

I wouldn't be surprised if after this is all said and done that we see headsets in defensive captains helmets to eliminate the problem entirely. Yes there are some issues with different players for different defensive sets...but they will find a way around that.
Oh I totally agree with C.....BUT....in this day and age, look at everything that's going on. Everyone is trying to gain the competitive edge whether it's steroid allegations, or spying. Unfortunately I think the days of complete honesty and dedication are over in many different aspects of sports in general

TomBradyWoot
02-16-2008, 07:56 PM
You forgot:
C) Win a championship through honesty, hardwork, and dedication.

I wouldn't be surprised if after this is all said and done that we see headsets in defensive captains helmets to eliminate the problem entirely. Yes there are some issues with different players for different defensive sets...but they will find a way around that.


Now wait a minute, are you saying the Patriots didn't work hard and dedicate themselves? Look you can say what you want, but video taping coaches defensive signals doesn't give you any free passes. You will always have to put in hard work and dedication.:up:

MR NFLFAN
02-16-2008, 10:05 PM
Oh I totally agree with C.....BUT....in this day and age, look at everything that's going on. Everyone is trying to gain the competitive edge whether it's steroid allegations, or spying. Unfortunately I think the days of complete honesty and dedication are over in many different aspects of sports in general

I think the the days of complete honesty were over a long long time ago in the NFL. All the events of spygate have served to do is to take away the naivete and innocense of the Fans.

Coral Reefer
02-16-2008, 11:29 PM
I think the the days of complete honesty were over a long long time ago in the NFL. All the events of spygate have served to do is to take away the naivete and innocense of the Fans.

At least the fans in New England.

Makes "perfect" sense.

TomBradyWoot
02-17-2008, 04:30 AM
At least the fans in New England.

Makes "perfect" sense.
Glad to see you make less than "one" point.

SpaceMountain16
02-17-2008, 09:57 AM
The reason the Patriots won isn't because of Belichick's tactics. Or him being a classless creep. It's because of Tom Brady, one of the great QB's to ever play the game, the numbers dont lie. Bill Belichick was 41-57 before Tom Brady started a regular season game. Belichick isn't a genius, he didn't magically turn into a genius over night. He had a stroke of luck and came across one of the best Quarterbacks of all-time.

MR NFLFAN
02-17-2008, 01:59 PM
At least the fans in New England.

Makes "perfect" sense.


I'm guessing you still believe in Santa Claus too.

Coral Reefer
02-17-2008, 11:50 PM
I'm guessing you still believe in Santa Claus too.

I would have put odds at 18-1 against him but after this last Super Bowl it became perfectly clear that there is a Santa.

MattM
02-18-2008, 12:00 AM
I'm guessing you still believe in Santa Claus too.

I love this line of logic from Pats* fans--"everyone does it, we just got caught". It's usually followed these days by some kind of "ooh, you all better watch out, because Kraft and BB have stuff on all of you, too". I'll be the first to call BS on that idea. Bring on the investigation, full steam ahead. I suspect when it's done, all we'll really learn is that the Pats* found many, many ways to cheat and that this is the tip of the iceberg. Anyone who's watched their games over the last 10 years or so knows that the officiating they often got late in close games was more than a little suspect, for ex. Just ask the Ravens players who got fined this year, or Andre Reed, who overheard a ref say "just give it to them" in a game in the late '90s on a horrible call that helped the Pats* get a victory late in the 4th and who also got fined for reporting this to the press. I have a hunch this might get a whole lot worse for the Pats* and their "fans" (most of whom started watching "their team" about 2002) before it gets better.....

Coral Reefer
02-18-2008, 12:24 AM
I love this line of logic from Pats* fans--"everyone does it, we just got caught". It's usually followed these days by some kind of "ooh, you all better watch out, because Kraft and BB have stuff on all of you, too". I'll be the first to call BS on that idea. Bring on the investigation, full steam ahead. I suspect when it's done, all we'll really learn is that the Pats* found many, many ways to cheat and that this is the tip of the iceberg. Anyone who's watched their games over the last 10 years or so knows that the officiating they often got late in close games was more than a little suspect, for ex. Just ask the Ravens players who got fined this year, or Andre Reed, who overheard a ref say "just give it to them" in a game in the late '90s on a horrible call that helped the Pats* get a victory late in the 4th and who also got fined for reporting this to the press. I have a hunch this might get a whole lot worse for the Pats* and their "fans" (most of whom started watching "their team" about 2002) before it gets better.....


I love that as well.

There were nothing but full denials that the Pasties were capable of such a thing by Pasty fans just a couple of weeks ago and now, just like you said, it's "Well everyone has been doing it for ages". :lol:

Funny how none of the other teams that make the "greatest teams ever lists" never had anything like this come up.

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 01:02 AM
I love this line of logic from Pats* fans--"everyone does it, we just got caught". It's usually followed these days by some kind of "ooh, you all better watch out, because Kraft and BB have stuff on all of you, too". I'll be the first to call BS on that idea. Bring on the investigation, full steam ahead. I suspect when it's done, all we'll really learn is that the Pats* found many, many ways to cheat and that this is the tip of the iceberg. Anyone who's watched their games over the last 10 years or so knows that the officiating they often got late in close games was more than a little suspect, for ex. Just ask the Ravens players who got fined this year, or Andre Reed, who overheard a ref say "just give it to them" in a game in the late '90s on a horrible call that helped the Pats* get a victory late in the 4th and who also got fined for reporting this to the press. I have a hunch this might get a whole lot worse for the Pats* and their "fans" (most of whom started watching "their team" about 2002) before it gets better.....

As mush as I love your logic of denial
Merry Christmas boys

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/01/30/speculation_still_swirling_around_mcdaniels/?page=2
Signal from Johnson

Fox studio analyst Jimmy Johnson reiterated his stance that the NFL's punishment of the Patriots' illegal videotaping procedures this year was overblown. He spoke passionately on the subject.

"The only thing I can say is so many people made such a big to-do about it, and everybody - and I mean everybody - went to the edge on rules in one form or fashion," Johnson said, reflecting on his coaching tenure with the Cowboys. "That's just part of the game, that's stealing the signals in baseball. This stuff has been going on for so long.
"When I came into the NFL, back in '89, I talked to a Kansas City scout and he said, 'Here's what we do, we videotape the opposing team's signals and then we synch it up with the game film.' So I did it."
Johnson admitted it was "borderline" but he ended up stopping because he didn't think the team got much out of it. He then spoke of other rules clubs pushed to the limit.
"When I went to the Dolphins and they talked about how you're supposed to have a 15-second cutoff [in communication] to your quarterback, but here is what we do [to circumvent that]," Johnson said. "They said they've always done this. So I said, 'OK, let's go ahead and do it.' Then the league said, 'Hey, we hear you're doing that, so don't do it anymore.'
"The point I'm making - I'm not trying to say everybody is cheaters - is that you have a rulebook that is so thick and you say 'How far can you go without breaking the rules?' When I coached the Cowboys, we didn't have this kind of scrutiny. But now, the scrutiny, every little thing we do - that's why I said the media blew it so far out of proportion.
"Would the commissioner have fined them and taken a draft pick if it had been the Arizona Cardinals? There is a lot of jealousy in this league. The high profile, it's almost making statement that 'I've got to do it because of who it is.' I know Bill Belichick very well, I know how he loves the NFL, he loves the history of the NFL, he loves the integrity of the NFL, that's why it irritates me that anyone would ever question that."




"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

-Jonathan Swift-

unluckyluciano
02-18-2008, 01:15 AM
He then spoke of other rules clubs pushed to the limit.

Pushed to the limit as opposed to breaking the rule completely.

“Lovers always think that other people are blind”

Spanish Proverb

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Pushed to the limit as opposed to breaking the rule completely.

“Lovers always think that other people are blind”

Spanish Proverb


Funny how you neglect his admissions of actually crossing the line and breaking the rules.

Illegal video taping and circumventing the 15 sec cuttoff in communications with the QB both of which were and are cheating.

Not all teams did it but for sure this has been going on long before spygate and not limited to NE.

I stand by my original statement a few post back.
Honesty in the NFL was over a long long time ago.

Itsdahumidity
02-18-2008, 11:15 AM
Funny how you neglect his admissions of actually crossing the line and breaking the rules.

Illegal video taping and circumventing the 15 sec cuttoff in communications with the QB both of which were and are cheating.

Not all teams did it but for sure this has been going on long before spygate and not limited to NE.

I stand by my original statement a few post back.
Honesty in the NFL was over a long long time ago.

Funny how you continue to quote ol Pork Face. You neglect the fact that he has one of the biggest egos who has an ax to grind plus he's the Cheater's fishing buddy. Yeah, Pork Face wouldn't cut off his nose to spite his face would he?

Coral Reefer
02-18-2008, 11:50 AM
I stand by my original statement a few post back.
Honesty in the NFL was over a long long time ago.

HA!

Again, out of all the "dynasty" type teams your team is the ONLY one that has ever had these types of claims leveled against them.

That alone speaks volumes let alone the proof that was destroyed and the proof that has yet to come out.

Until there's ANY proof that another team has done anything anywhere near the Pasty organization, your words are nothing but a diversion.

Not to mention that it's a HUGE story change from you!
Just a few weeks ago your valiant team was innocent and now "well everyone is doing it". You got your next story made up to make you feel better as this gets deeper? :sidelol:

SpaceMountain16
02-18-2008, 11:55 AM
HA!

Again, out of all the "dynasty" type teams your team is the ONLY one that has ever had these types of claims leveled against them.

That alone speaks volumes let alone the proof that was destroyed and the proof that has yet to come out.

Until there's ANY proof that another team has done anything anywhere near the Pasty organization, your words are nothing but a diversion.

Not to mention that it's a HUGE story change from you!
Just a few weeks ago your valiant team was innocent and now "well everyone is doing it". You got your next story made up to make you feel better as this gets deeper? :sidelol:

When it rains, it pours.

I hate the Patriots as much as anyone else. But the cheating thing i agree has becoming nothing more than a smear campaign. The Patriots are the best team this decade, that's a fact. Whether they taped their opponents in games or not, they have been the most consistent winning team this decade.

What's wrong with the Patriots is Bill Belichick having the arrogance to think he can do anything to win, unnecessary things that may form an unbalanced playing field such as stealing signals. But that's because Bill Belichick is an arrogant classless human being. He's not the reason for the Patriots success.

If he was suspended for life from football today the Patriots would still be the best team in football.

unluckyluciano
02-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Funny how you neglect his admissions of actually crossing the line and breaking the rules.
I do nothing of the sort. You posted and highlighted the part where he talks about what he did in miami to show us that oooo our team cheated as well. But if you read the article the article writer says it is just pushing the limits of the rules and not breaking them. In fact he repeatedly says they pushed the limits of the rules and not broke the rules as the patsies are accused of doing. So why you are trying to equate what JJ is admitting to to what the patsies are accused of is beyond me.



Illegal video taping and circumventing the 15 sec cuttoff in communications with the QB both of which were and are cheating.
Ummmm in some cases I could see them being equal but trying to equate what the patsies are accused of to circumventing the cutoff is laughable.



Not all teams did it but for sure this has been going on long before spygate and not limited to NE.
Possibly. Does not justify your teams actions nor does it mean they should get off without punishment.


I stand by my original statement a few post back.
Honesty in the NFL was over a long long time ago.
Again your trying to justify your team possible getting in some deep **** by saying well everyone is doing it. That is an excuse and does not mean they should get off without a punishment.

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 12:13 PM
I did nothing of the sort. You posted and highlighted the part where he talks about what he did in miami to show us that oooo our team cheated as well. But if you read the article the article writer seems to think it is just pushing the limits of the rules and not breaking them. His admissions to breaking the rules are when he was talking about his earlier coaching career.


Ummmm in some cases I could see them being equal but trying to equate what the patsies are accused of to circumventing the cutoff is laughable.


Possibly. Does not justify your teams actions nor does it mean they should get off without punishment.

Again your trying to justify your team possible getting in some deep **** by saying well everyone is doing it. That is an excuse and does not mean they should get off without a punishment.


I wasn't trying to justify anything nor have I suggest the Pats get off without punishment and I don't know where you even come up with that. I suggest you go back and read my first post in this thread. This is what I said


I think the the days of complete honesty were over a long long time ago in the NFL. All the events of spygate have served to do is to take away the naivete and innocense of the Fans.


I posted the Johnson story to show testimony that cheating has been going on in the league for quite some time. You can choose to down play it all you want and even try and smear his name but at least the man had guts enough to admit what has been going on in the league long before last september.

It doesn't justify what Belichick did but it does show the pattern of these so called "honest" fooball games that many of you think we've had. It's all been a big illusion of honesty in the eyes of the fans but make no mistake about it's been going on a long time.
It's shown me that the league has to police itself much more rigously than it has

unluckyluciano
02-18-2008, 12:42 PM
I wasn't trying to justify anything nor have I suggest the Pats get off without punishment and I don't know where you even come up with that. I suggest you go back and read my first post in this thread. This is what I said
I know what you said and you can mean one thing and I can interpret it differently. Hence why we are to seperate beings. Having said that it still comes off as a justification for your team doing something wrong and getting caught. Maybe you have not said they should/ should not be punished but that is the next logical conclusion in any defense is let me off because of said defense.



I posted the Johnson story to show testimony that cheating has been going on in the league for quite some time. You can choose to down play it all you want and even try and smear his name but at least the man had guts enough to admit what has been going on in the league long before last september.

I in no way attacked his character. I do however, see a difference between trying to get away with pushing the boundaries of rules vs completely breaking the rules. Yes the line can get blurred but the line still exists instead of it being behind you because you stepped over it a long time ago.



It doesn't justify what Belichick did but it does show the pattern of these so called "honest" fooball games that many of you think we've had. It's all been a big illusion of honesty in the eyes of the fans but make no mistake about it's been going on a long time.
It's shown me that the league has to police itself much more rigously than it has
Again you say it doesn't justify it, then you add the but, which means a justification :lol:. Sorry again thats how I read it.
I'm sure other teams have cheated but again the patsies got caught and the patsies and their fans should, if adequate proof, should accept their punishment and not try to play the role of the whipping boy.

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 12:48 PM
HA!

Again, out of all the "dynasty" type teams your team is the ONLY one that has ever had these types of claims leveled against them.

That alone speaks volumes let alone the proof that was destroyed and the proof that has yet to come out.

Until there's ANY proof that another team has done anything anywhere near the Pasty organization, your words are nothing but a diversion.

Not to mention that it's a HUGE story change from you!
Just a few weeks ago your valiant team was innocent and now "well everyone is doing it". You got your next story made up to make you feel better as this gets deeper? :sidelol:

Please don't invent stories or put words in my mouth I've never said. Find a link of me ever saying the Pats were innocent.
We have a confession of guilt by johnson for doing the exact same things and you ask for proof? Thats what I'd call denial at its finest.
Does it make me feel better about what the patriots did? Most certainly not.
All the Johnson interview did was to open my eyes as to whats been going on within the league for years and the fact that the league warned him tells me that they also knew it. What Belichick did was wrong but I believe is just the tip of the iceburg and being a fan it makes me wonder what else the league turned a blind eye to. Take your patriot hating glasses off for just a minute and ask yourself if we believe in honest football games such as the Senator stated shouldn't we be willing to look deep within the leagues past practices and its honor system policy?

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 01:11 PM
I know what you said and you can mean one thing and I can interpret it differently. Hence why we are to seperate beings. Having said that it still comes off as a justification for your team doing something wrong and getting caught. Maybe you have not said they should/ should not be punished but that is the next logical conclusion in any defense is let me off because of said defense.

News flash They have already been punished and nobody has asked to be let off. It pretty much useless trying to explain anything to you as you have a set in stone mentality that all pats fans try to justifiy cheating and that we shouldn't be punished. Its clear your hatred is whats responsible for how you interrupt everything and then twist it around to suit your own thoughts.



I in no way attacked his character. I do however, see a difference between trying to get away with pushing the boundaries of rules vs completely breaking the rules. Yes the line can get blurred but the line still exists instead of it being behind you because you stepped over it a long time ago.

So circumventing the 15 sec communications rule and video taping are "pushing the boundries" to you unless of course its done by NE then its clearly breaking the rules? I see why you have trouble interrupting what I've said/



Again you say it doesn't justify it, then you add the but, which means a justification :lol:. Sorry again thats how I read it.
I'm sure other teams have cheated but again the patsies got caught and the patsies and their fans should, if adequate proof, should accept their punishment and not try to play the role of the whipping boy.

Tell me as a fan are you more concerned with honest football games or just who gets caught?

:shakeno:

late again
02-18-2008, 01:42 PM
HA!

Again, out of all the "dynasty" type teams your team is the ONLY one that has ever had these types of claims leveled against them.

That alone speaks volumes let alone the proof that was destroyed and the proof that has yet to come out.

Until there's ANY proof that another team has done anything anywhere near the Pasty organization, your words are nothing but a diversion.

Not to mention that it's a HUGE story change from you!
Just a few weeks ago your valiant team was innocent and now "well everyone is doing it". You got your next story made up to make you feel better as this gets deeper? :sidelol:

That's actually not true. Both the 49ers and Broncos were fined for paying players under the table under their so-called glory years. There have long been rumors of the Steelers' training staff having provided steroids to players during their "glory years". For that matter after JJ's comments, it's not that big of a leap to assume the Cowboys were guilty of improprieties while he was there. What about all the tampering that apparently occurs every year?

unluckyluciano
02-18-2008, 02:14 PM
News flash They have already been punished and nobody has asked to be let off. It pretty much useless trying to explain anything to you as you have a set in stone mentality that all pats fans try to justifiy cheating and that we shouldn't be punished. Its clear your hatred is whats responsible for how you interrupt everything and then twist it around to suit your own thoughts.
For taping signals at the jets game yes they have been punished. I am refering to their possible punishment at whatever comes out the rest of this offseason. And either way regardless of if they have been punished or will be punished you can not, but still will try I'm sure, to justify their actions by saying everyone else does it. And news flash you don't know me or about "my hatred". So you should try another route that does not include you attacking my motives that you think you know about. Thanks.



So circumventing the 15 sec communications rule and video taping are "pushing the boundries" to you unless of course its done by NE then its clearly breaking the rules? I see why you have trouble interrupting what I've said/
I never said it would be only bad if NE did it.



Tell me as a fan are you more concerned with honest football games or just who gets caught?

:shakeno:
I've always been concerned with honesty not the teams/ people that cheat. Just as in baseball I only care that the playing field is level and people who don't deserve to succeed, by cheating or just being all around bad people, do not get to do so. Here I added a few more for you. :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 03:00 PM
For taping signals at the jets game yes they have been punished. I am refering to their possible punishment at whatever comes out the rest of this offseason. And either way regardless of if they have been punished or will be punished you can not, but still will try I'm sure, to justify their actions by saying everyone else does it. And news flash you don't know me or about "my hatred". So you should try another route that does not include you attacking my motives that you think you know about. Thanks.


I never said it would be only bad if NE did it.


I've always been concerned with honesty not the teams/ people that cheat. Just as in baseball I only care that the playing field is level and people who don't deserve to succeed, by cheating or just being all around bad people, do not get to do so. Here I added a few more for you. :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno: :shakeno:



I don't think the Pats should be let off without punishment. If the commisioner finds more proof then there should be more punishment. I'm talking about proof not just accusations.

I don't think the pats are innocent in breaking a league rule of using video tape to steal signals.

I don't believe every team has cheated.

I'm positive other teams have cheated in the past.

I'm more concerned with all games being played on a level playing field than who was caught or admitted to cheating in the past.

I'm concerned that the league hasn't taken approiate steps now or in the past to assure us of honesty in the NFL.

And lastly I think for the league to set up proper policies and to be able to police those policies they must come clean themselves. They must install some kind of real time monitoring system of each and every team. It must be proactive and not just reactive in dealing with the methods used both past and present of gaining an unfair advantage. It must have a just, fair, clear cut and timely punishment policy of how these things are dealt with.


I still stand by my original statement.

Cheating in the NFL has been going on a long long time there is no question about it. Just because we as fans buried our heads in the sand for so long doesn't mean it wasn't happening.