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View Full Version : How much of an advantage does filming signals give?



Stringer Bell
02-18-2008, 11:50 AM
IMO, its a very small advantage. The signals are there for everyone see. Instead of writing down what they mean during the game, they just wait until later in the week and watch the tape.

Really provides an extremely small advantage, if any. Just my opinion though.

SpaceMountain16
02-18-2008, 11:58 AM
It's a smear campaign to diminish the accomplishments of a great team, because the team is very unlikable, and the coach is a complete jackass.

Coral Reefer
02-18-2008, 12:03 PM
It's a smear campaign to diminish the accomplishments of a great team, because the team is very unlikable, and the coach is a complete jackass.

There were many teams that were so successful that they created animosity and jealousy against their success.

None of the others had any such charges levied against them or anyone trying to "smear campaign" them.

It's becoming abundantly clear based on the NFL destroying evidence and with a cameraman admitting to taping sessions for them and having tapes as proof that the Pats did in fact engage in activities that justify the storm surrounding them.

If you're going to break the rules you better be prepared to pay the price when caught. They'll try and wiggle out of it but hopefully in the end some type of sanctioning will be levied against them and it will be well deserved.

SpaceMountain16
02-18-2008, 12:08 PM
There were many teams that were so successful that they created animosity and jealousy against their success.

None of the others had any such charges levied against them or anyone trying to "smear campaign" them.

It's becoming abundantly clear based on the NFL destroying evidence and with a cameraman admitting to taping sessions for them and having tapes as proof that the Pats did in fact engage in activities that justify the storm surrounding them.

If you're going to break the rules you better be prepared to pay the price when caught. They'll try and wiggle out of it but hopefully in the end some type of sanctioning will be levied against them and it will be well deserved.

Now that i agree with.

The NFL destroying the tapes, to me seems extremely shady. I dont know what was on those tapes, and nobody ever will, but it's quite apparent that it's more than just some simple stealing of signals.

The way the NFL has dealt with this has fueled this scandal.

unluckyluciano
02-18-2008, 12:16 PM
There were many teams that were so successful that they created animosity and jealousy against their success.

None of the others had any such charges levied against them or anyone trying to "smear campaign" them.

It's becoming abundantly clear based on the NFL destroying evidence and with a cameraman admitting to taping sessions for them and having tapes as proof that the Pats did in fact engage in activities that justify the storm surrounding them.

If you're going to break the rules you better be prepared to pay the price when caught. They'll try and wiggle out of it but hopefully in the end some type of sanctioning will be levied against them and it will be well deserved.
IMO it seems this whole thing has escalated greatly from merely taping signals. Seems to me the patsies were doing other stuff with their cameras they should not have been.

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 01:34 PM
IMO, its a very small advantage. The signals are there for everyone see. Instead of writing down what they mean during the game, they just wait until later in the week and watch the tape.

Really provides an extremely small advantage, if any. Just my opinion though.

I agree. Writing them down, video taping them or polorids you still have 3 guys sending signals 2 or which are bogus signals plus to be of any help you'd have had to be able to communicate the signals into the QB which from what I've heard would be hard to do with only a 15 sec communication window to send in the offensive play.

Iroquois Joe
02-18-2008, 04:37 PM
IMO, its a very small advantage. The signals are there for everyone see. Instead of writing down what they mean during the game, they just wait until later in the week and watch the tape.

Really provides an extremely small advantage, if any. Just my opinion though.

A field goal is a small margin of victory in a tight game where any given play could determine the outcome.

The type of leverage that could be gained by knowing what is comming may not be great, but I would have to believe it would only be employed durring choice moments in a game to gain that one stop or turnover that would change the flow of the game, or seal a victory.

This "Ace in the Hole" would not be pulled from Belichicks sleave unless it was needed. Card sharks don't risk tipping their hands.

With a game already in the books by half time, or sitting on a comfortable lead and running out the clock in the 4th qtr. on an average team, there would be no need to resort to the tactic. However, its safe to say you could bet the farm the opposing teams signals were being taped all the same, just in case the two teams met in the playoffs were Brady and the boys might find themselves down a score or two with 8 mins. left the 3rd. qtr.

That would be the time for Bill to exhibit his genious defensive mind and shut down the opposition.

Iroquois Joe
02-18-2008, 06:09 PM
I agree. Writing them down, video taping them or polorids you still have 3 guys sending signals 2 or which are bogus signals plus to be of any help you'd have had to be able to communicate the signals into the QB which from what I've heard would be hard to do with only a 15 sec communication window to send in the offensive play.

The non-advantage of film equal to writting down what's observed or polaroids?

Watch some girl walk across the street and write down everything significant you observe about her, then recall who within 20 yards of that person is wearing a hat.

You might get that on a polaroid, but if three guys tipped their hats at the same time, who was the lady looking at. Blow up the picture to get a better look at her eyes and the hat tippers disappear.

Now film the 10 second action, scan the street corner back and forth, do this a dozen times with the same hat tippers and lady. If she looks at tipper one she smiles ignoring the rest, tipper two she frowns and cluthches her bag, tipper three she hails a cab.

Hey, how does she know which hat tipper to take her que from to begin with, do the others give that away some how? Is there a fourth person sending a signal?

Check out the body language of the people on the corner, those in authority, sitting on the bench, the people crossing the street with the lady, where do they position themselves depending on whether she smiles or frowns.

Go over it slowly, forward / reverse.

Compare it with a dozen other tapes you have of the same lady, hat tippers and set of characters you've taped when they have gone through the same motions on different corners in the city. What predicatable patterns do you see emerge?

Likely a hell of a lot more than you would if you wrote it down or snapped polaroids of the action.

Does this analogy seem too ridiculous....I don't think so.

A skilled interpreter may not be able to hit the nail on the head 100% of the time, but he would be close.

Stringer Bell
02-18-2008, 07:13 PM
from what i understand, the patriots provided goodell not only with evidence of their cheating, but also video evidence of other teams cheating. which is why the tapes were destroyed, so this doesnt become an entire NFL scandal

jimmy42jack0
02-18-2008, 07:16 PM
from what i understand, the patriots provided goodell not only with evidence of their cheating, but also video evidence of other teams cheating. which is why the tapes were destroyed, so this doesnt become an entire NFL scandal
how could the pats possibly have evidence of other teams cheating?

#1dolphinsfan
02-18-2008, 07:19 PM
It give you a HUGE advantage if you know what the Defense is going to be running

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 07:50 PM
from what i understand, the patriots provided goodell not only with evidence of their cheating, but also video evidence of other teams cheating. which is why the tapes were destroyed, so this doesnt become an entire NFL scandal

How could they nobody else ever in the history of the NFL has ever cheated.

:lol:

satz
02-18-2008, 08:38 PM
It give you a HUGE advantage if you know what the Defense is going to be running

If i am not mistaken
1)The signals are changed frequently
2)Which of the 3 coordinaters are the correct one for defensive signals is even changed every quater.
3)Even if identified the qb/coach is cut off 15 sec before snap.but most defenses do make break huddle 15-20 sec before the clock expires so how much data can be processed in 2-3 sec with any reability is tough.

But this can be done after week 9 win over colts rodney was on radio and said after 3 completion to wayne they figured out that the colts were readying their signals so they call the same one and he ran to the spot where wayne had those completions and made the interception.But no video was used.

MattM
02-18-2008, 10:16 PM
How could they nobody else ever in the history of the NFL has ever cheated.

:lol:

Everybody does it, right, so it's okay? Keep telling yourselves that. And on the original point, I love the Pats* fans' story that "Goodell did this to save the League, since the Pats* records showed other folks cheating, too." Hogwash--what's a lot more likely to anyone with half a brain is that Goodell destroyed the tapes and materials because they showed the Pats* doing worse than just the defensive signal stealing. That makes a whole lot more sense than "they had evidence of other teams cheating, too." Pray tell, how the heck would the Pats* have evidence of other teams videotaping the Pats and if so, why keep it? That just seems absurd.....

Alex44
02-18-2008, 10:19 PM
If the girl next door comes over and gets undressed it's legal. If you stare at her through binoculars in her bedroom it's illegal.

The end result doesn't matter, how you do it makes it either against the rules or not. Everyone needs to play by the same rules or else you do end up with an unfair advantage in a league where one play can mean any given game.

dont fumble
02-18-2008, 10:32 PM
I find it amazing that people say that everyone does it and in the next sentence they say it's meaningless since they only have 15 seconds and 3 people on the sideline and so on.
Why do you tape games for almost a decade if you don't get an advantage? Does that make any sense??? This is wasting resources and no one would do it unless you get something out of it. That's human nature, so is denial...

And how did a sorry Miami team do last year vs. NE after they analyzed their plays/audibles (legally!!!)? After that game, though they didn't do anything illegal, the NFL told the Fins not to do it again. You have to wonder why.

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 11:27 PM
Everybody does it, right, so it's okay? Keep telling yourselves that. And on the original point, I love the Pats* fans' story that "Goodell did this to save the League, since the Pats* records showed other folks cheating, too." Hogwash--what's a lot more likely to anyone with half a brain is that Goodell destroyed the tapes and materials because they showed the Pats* doing worse than just the defensive signal stealing. That makes a whole lot more sense than "they had evidence of other teams cheating, too." Pray tell, how the heck would the Pats* have evidence of other teams videotaping the Pats and if so, why keep it? That just seems absurd.....

Yeah rumor has it they filmed Belichick kicking puppies and peeing in the trash barrel.

MR NFLFAN
02-18-2008, 11:29 PM
I find it amazing that people say that everyone does it and in the next sentence they say it's meaningless since they only have 15 seconds and 3 people on the sideline and so on.
Why do you tape games for almost a decade if you don't get an advantage? Does that make any sense??? This is wasting resources and no one would do it unless you get something out of it. That's human nature, so is denial...

And how did a sorry Miami team do last year vs. NE after they analyzed their plays/audibles (legally!!!)? After that game, though they didn't do anything illegal, the NFL told the Fins not to do it again. You have to wonder why.

Thats impossible no other team in the league has ever cheated except NE. All the rest have only visited the gray areas of the rule book.

late again
02-19-2008, 01:04 AM
Thats impossible no other team in the league has ever cheated except NE. All the rest have only visited the gray areas of the rule book.

I know...I know. What I can't figure out is why there aren't more people really angry at the NFL. They supposedly have a whole army of security personnel; former FBI, etc. And instead of aggressively insuring that the games are played with integrity, they've done everything in their power to present us with some facade.
My dad was a criminal attorney and he told me more than once that a person could get away with virtually anything as long as the media didn't know about it. That's apparently what's happened here with the spygate scandal.

MR NFLFAN
02-19-2008, 12:48 PM
I know...I know. What I can't figure out is why there aren't more people really angry at the NFL. They supposedly have a whole army of security personnel; former FBI, etc. And instead of aggressively insuring that the games are played with integrity, they've done everything in their power to present us with some facade.
My dad was a criminal attorney and he told me more than once that a person could get away with virtually anything as long as the media didn't know about it. That's apparently what's happened here with the spygate scandal.

Yeah it is amazing isn't it. I can't believe how niave a lot of these fans are but I suppose this has been the reason the facade has been so easy for the league to perpetuate.

Stringer Bell
02-19-2008, 01:20 PM
I know...I know. What I can't figure out is why there aren't more people really angry at the NFL. They supposedly have a whole army of security personnel; former FBI, etc. And instead of aggressively insuring that the games are played with integrity, they've done everything in their power to present us with some facade.
My dad was a criminal attorney and he told me more than once that a person could get away with virtually anything as long as the media didn't know about it. That's apparently what's happened here with the spygate scandal.

honestly i think all the video taping and other things are just gamesmanship

i dont think the game has lost any of its integrity, there is just another aspect we haven't know about. its part of the game between coaches, GMs, etc.

why do you think they use signals in the first place?

Vertical Limit
02-19-2008, 01:25 PM
I am not sure if it's much of an advantage if you're using it DURING the game. On a 35 second playclock, that is a little too much work.

To use it during the game:
1. You have to have complete knowledge of the Jets' playbook. How? I don't know if that's possible.
2. Once you get the signal and play, communicate with the coaches, pass it on to the coordinator, and the coordinator calls out the play to the captain to call the play they believe can really go against the opponent's play.

Let's remember that all this happened in the Meadowlands, not Foxboro where they can have a whole department for this.

The video recorded during the Patriots game was a camera guy taking shots of the coaches throwing up signals and the game clock. I would think, they took those shots to review the tape and the play that was executed with the signal called by the Jets' coaches. Then I suppose you can use it to your advantage when you meet again.

Recording a walkthrough, a practice, etc like reported on the Championship year against the Rams before a game would be more of an advantage for the upcoming game than what the Patriots did against the Jets.

Pretty sure what we did with audio before the game happened has more advantages against our opponent than what the Patriots recorded DURING a game.

Then again, I really don't know how far the Patriots went on the spygate to back up what I say at 100%. Only Goodell and Belicheck knows, and Goodell destroyed the tapes. Heh. Great job.

MR NFLFAN
02-20-2008, 03:00 PM
I am not sure if it's much of an advantage if you're using it DURING the game. On a 35 second playclock, that is a little too much work.

To use it during the game:
1. You have to have complete knowledge of the Jets' playbook. How? I don't know if that's possible.
2. Once you get the signal and play, communicate with the coaches, pass it on to the coordinator, and the coordinator calls out the play to the captain to call the play they believe can really go against the opponent's play.

Let's remember that all this happened in the Meadowlands, not Foxboro where they can have a whole department for this.

The video recorded during the Patriots game was a camera guy taking shots of the coaches throwing up signals and the game clock. I would think, they took those shots to review the tape and the play that was executed with the signal called by the Jets' coaches. Then I suppose you can use it to your advantage when you meet again.

Recording a walkthrough, a practice, etc like reported on the Championship year against the Rams before a game would be more of an advantage for the upcoming game than what the Patriots did against the Jets.

Pretty sure what we did with audio before the game happened has more advantages against our opponent than what the Patriots recorded DURING a game.

Then again, I really don't know how far the Patriots went on the spygate to back up what I say at 100%. Only Goodell and Belicheck knows, and Goodell destroyed the tapes. Heh. Great job.

Your post got me wondering. Does anyone know exactly what the league rule book states regarding recording a walk thru or even a practice? I remember years ago the chargers accused the Broncos of spying on their practice and the league more or less said it was a team matter.

Here was the video tape rule that was posted by satz:

"Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game"

"from the start to the finish of any games"

Certainly a walk thru is a practice which this rule doesn't seem to address. Has the league ever addressed the rules during a practice?


VL
To address how far the pats went like you say there are only a couple of guys that know for sure. If the commisioner stated that Belichick told him he had always interrupted the rule incorrectly since becoming a head coach and the commisioner said he assumed he has used video tape to record signals since he had become a HC then I can't see anything that Walsh could have (other than the so called walk thru) that would be new evidence. More of the same as the comissioner already saw would be consistant with what he knows and was told by belichick and would not be in violation of the certified statement that NE had turned over all it had. What was stolen by this guy are clearly not in possesion of the Pats and if he has copies of the same type of tapes it wouldn't provide any new evidence. I'd still like to know what the rule book states if anything at all with regards to taping a practice.

Itsdahumidity
02-22-2008, 01:10 PM
“I don’t think they’ve been unfairly singled out,” Titans coach Jeff Fisher said.

“They violated a serious, competitive rule and they were penalized for it, and we’ve moved on.”

"Fisher disagreed with the contention that the Patriots were merely caught doing a common practice."

“See, not everybody does it,” Fisher said. “That’s the misunderstanding. When you say everybody does it, not everybody is recording. There’s not a bylaw against sitting up in a press box and taking notes with a binoculars as fast as you can. But there is a bylaw as far as videotaping signals, and that is the issue. We just have to be very careful when we say everyone does it. To my knowledge, this is the only team that videotaped coaches’ signals.”


"Added (Rich)McKay: “I don’t want the outside perception to be that, ‘Boy, there’s all these teams, and they’re doing all these things, because it’s not true. It’s flat-out not true.”

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1075235

***************************************

Martz on Spygate: Cheating is cheating
"As Mike Martz sees it, those who contend that not much can be gained from taping a walkthrough are missing the point.

"For somebody to say that is kind of disgusting," Martz said."
"The whole point is whether they cheated. Isn't that really the point? I think so."
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/rams/story/961694176CC87E68862573F7001171CF?OpenDocument